MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MuggsyB on January 22, 2023, 06:52:46 AM
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We're ahead of schedule Scoopers. Goose discussed our resurgence before the start of last season so give the man credit. I thought we would be in this position closer to mid year 3, but Shaka and these guys have proved me wrong. We can take this program to the tier 1 level and sustain it, that's what Goose meant by the "Resurgence".
Now, in the midst to this climb back to greatness, coming out and zipping down the floor, we see a team that is as exciting as any group in the entire nation. This is not hyperbole, we can attract the kind of players I and others have discussed for years that seemingly never took the pluge to Milwaukee. Guys who want to get up and down the floor, zoom with pace and space, slice and dice defenses, and play free flowing hoops. We can now attract the Chase Ross type athlete as an example.
Anyway, I believe this season and our aesthetically pleasing style, will lead to players wanting to come to MU both as hs players and transfers. The entire picture is not complete and we have plenty of work to do but the trajectory of this MU program continues to climb. The decade of dominance, something we have all wanted, may in fact be on the horizon. Props to Shaka and our entire roster.
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The type of results are what I thought was possible, and my expectations were a top 15-25 type team in the preseason. I think Goose and I were of similar minds that while most were looking at what we lost, not enough were looking at what we brought back.
I mentioned to the Three Man Weave guys in preseason that we were basically Creighton in that we brought back a starting PG (Kolek/Nembhard) and forward (O-Max/Kaluma), as well as elevating a key reserve (Mitchell/Alexander). For all three of those, Marquette had the more efficient player. We both had high-efficiency bigs (Oso/Kalk). We both lost our best players (Justin/Hawkins) and supplementary scorers (Morsell/O'Connell). The biggest question was replacing that offensive pop, we did so from within (Kam) while they did so from outside (Scheierman).
They mostly dismissed Marquette being better, like all of the national media did, but this team was about what we brought back. What's impressed me the most, however, is how rapidly Coach Smart has brought development out of these guys. I expected Tyler, Kam, O-Max, and Oso to be good, but Stevie's efficiency, Joplin's usefulness (even his defense has shown signs of life the past few games), and Chase Ohmigod Ross really look good.
I had among the highest expectations for this team and they are still blowing past them. So I guess "F**k me" too :D
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The type of results are what I thought was possible, and my expectations were a top 15-25 type team in the preseason. I think Goose and I were of similar minds that while most were looking at what we lost, not enough were looking at what we brought back.
I mentioned to the Three Man Weave guys in preseason that we were basically Creighton in that we brought back a starting PG (Kolek/Nembhard) and forward (O-Max/Kaluma), as well as elevating a key reserve (Mitchell/Alexander). For all three of those, Marquette had the more efficient player. We both had high-efficiency bigs (Oso/Kalk). We both lost our best players (Justin/Hawkins) and supplementary scorers (Morsell/O'Connell). The biggest question was replacing that offensive pop, we did so from within (Kam) while they did so from outside (Scheierman).
They mostly dismissed Marquette being better, like all of the national media did, but this team was about what we brought back. What's impressed me the most, however, is how rapidly Coach Smart has brought development out of these guys. I expected Tyler, Kam, O-Max, and Oso to be good, but Stevie's efficiency, Joplin's usefulness (even his defense has shown signs of life the past few games), and Chase Ohmigod Ross really look good.
I had among the highest expectations for this team and they are still blowing past them. So I guess "F**k me" too :D
I think there's a few keys as to why we're considerably better than last season. The obvious one is that all of our main guys have improved significantly. I don't think Kam's emergence is a surprise but TyKo's ability to score in the paint along with Oso and OMax being much better players wasn't really foreseen. The other thing, and this isn't a knock on Lewis, is that we are much more fluid offensively with his absence. The ball would often stop with JLew while guys stood around and watched, that's not the case this season. I would also argue that our propensity to commit turns had something to do with having a grinding ball stopper that didn't pass well out of doubles. The most underrated stat for this team (notwithstanding yesterday) is we do a very solid job of taking care of the rock. We're also exponentially better at forcing turns, scoring in transition, and taking better shots.
What amazes me most Brew is that we're not a great 3pt shooting team. I thought we took essentially 24/27 wide open threes vs the Hall and couldn't hit them. Look the Hell out if we can get into a rhythm from distance a la Baylor. It is my contention we are a better 3pt shooting team than we have shown. People called me "greedy" for saying we should have won by 35 yesterday but I stand by my comment. Ross, Jones the Younger, Gold, will be much, much, better from downtown next year. Even with our rebounding and defensive issues at times this team, when clicking on all cylinders, is a threat to beat anyone in the country. I'm certain of this. That does not mean I'm saying we're a F4 team but anything is possible Brew with no dominant ball-club.
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I too am enjoying this season. It seems that we're not just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel but we're actually out of the tunnel.
I know this is a discussion for April and Goose alluded to this during the Providence game when he noticed Wade and Strong talking together not to mention some analysts have stated all these guys still have a minimum of 2 more years here. I know one guy has to go, but damn I hope they all come back at least for next season and hope we don't lose too many players as they can make a ton of money playing elsewhere.
If Shaka can keep this team together then the outlook for the program looks bright. I am not convinced if we go the Cooley route we will be competitive year after year.
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Great start to a thread Muggs and Brew, very well said.
This is fun as hell.
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The team is better because of continuity and development. We saw flashes of all of this last year.
OMax. and Stevie both finished strong. They were fresher because they had played fewer minutes.
Oso had good halves.
TK had games where he controlled the offense.
Kam made it rain.
Last January was proof of concept.
Projecting the #1 offense is absurd of course. Development is expected, but it is silly to expect every single player to get significantly better and for them all to be in sync. That is why this team is so much fun.
I never count on huge, consistent contributions from freshmen. I do appreciate that Shaka gets them to play fearlessly.
I worry about injuries and fatigue. Other than that, I am sitting back and enjoying the ride.
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This is not hyperbole, we can attract the kind of players I and others have discussed for years that seemingly never took the pluge to Milwaukee. Guys who want to get up and down the floor, zoom with pace and space, slice and dice defenses, and play free flowing hoops. We can now attract the Chase Ross type athlete as an example.
I am thinking we will see more consistency in the type of team that Shaka puts together each year. The players he recruits will fit what he’s trying to do which seems the obvious thing to do but I thought that was somewhat inverted under the previous coach. They instead seemed to go after the best possible players and then go from there and try build a winning team around the individual pieces each year. As a result, they didn’t have much identity as a program as the team was so different in most years for the most part.
I agree though and I think MU will start having their pick of the litter under Shaka. He will plug a transfer or one in done in when it makes sense (ie if Oso goes pro after this year), but I think he prefers guys who will be here at least 2-3 years so we will continue to get a lot of guys in the 80-120 range of the recruiting rankings.
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For the first time in awhile, I don't think we need to worry about recruiting. He's going to get the 3/4 stars that fit his scheme and play his way. Maybe there's a 5 star that buys in. But give me a whole class of Chase Rosses please.
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The biggest threat to continuity won't be players leaving early to go pro. It will be players considering transfers given the current rules and NIL.
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Great analysis, Muggsy.
In years past where we had the February collapse, we were too reliant on one player on offense. Howard in 19 and 20; Lewis last year. This group has so many weapons that it makes it hard to stop.
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For the first time in awhile, I don't think we need to worry about recruiting. He's going to get the 3/4 stars that fit his scheme and play his way. Maybe there's a 5 star that buys in. But give me a whole class of Chase Rosses please.
Yup. It's been really interesting to hear Shaka and the current players talk about how last year the ball would get stuck in Justin's hands...and I think that was okay given their youth...but this is totally different. Nevada gets a ton of credit but something tells me Shaka spending quality time with that D2 coach was beneficial...
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None of the individual development has surprised me this season. I thought what each of the returning players has turned into was plausible.
What I didn't expect was ALL of them to develop as much as they did. I thought maybe 2 or 3 would have big development, 1 or 2 reasonable development and maybe one dud who didn't improve much. Instead all the returners maxed their development and the results have been really fun
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For years, I've contended "we're back," as in becoming a perennial national powerhouse team. That means the kind of program that gets national attention and reaches the heights we did when Coach McGuire was Marquette. Almost as fast as the words were out of my mouth, we suffered a huge setback and Marquette didn't quite accomplish what I'd hoped for. Players or coaches just simply left or self-destructed.
I'm beginning to feel different about "this time."
Long-term success in college basketball begins and ends with coaching stability involving "best-in-class" coaches who aren't going to win 21 games, reach the Sweet 16 of the NCAA Tournament and cut and run for, in order, Tennessee, Indiana, Virginia Tech. Or someplace else for that matter. If one looks at the top schools in college basketball, North Carolina, Duke, Villanova, Kentucky or Kansas, long-term coaching stability is the key.
For what it's worth, we probably had to go through Coach Wojo to get to Coach Shaka. When the Hillbilly/Redneck left us, Coach Shaka reportedly was our top candidate. Imagine what would have happened if Coach Shaka had come when the Hillbilly left? My best guess is that an SEC, BIG or ACC team eventually would have come calling. Would he have stayed? Who knows?
But with the insanity of the Texas situation, Marquette lucked out in more ways than we ever imagined. In fact, despite the ACU loss, I'll bet Texas is wishing they'd hung in with Coach Shaka. My initial fear in terminating Coach Wojo was we'd screw this one up.... again!
The reality is Coach Shaka is building. We're way ahead of where we thought we would be (remember, it takes five years...?) because Coach Shaka inherited and recruits good players and knows how to coach them up. That's what made Satan over in Madison successful and it's ultimately what's going to return us to where most of us want to be -- including having another banner hanging next to the 1977 one! I'm optimistic this guy is a keeper because he's been through what happened in Texas and he's a cheesehead! Plus, my friends in Texas who knew him tell me he is an incredible person.
One other point I'd note that goes back to coaching. When we were winning under Coach Wojo, generally it was because "hero ball" (and I don't mean Tyler Herro) was working. Markus was hitting from downtown, Sam hit some off-balance, crazy last-minute shot or something else was happening that was of questionable sustainability. Under Coach Shaka, we win or we lose as a team. Yesterday, Omax and TK had a bad day. But Kam and Oso picked them up and the team as a whole rose to the occasion. I won't say ti didn't happen under Coach Wojo, but it certainly wasn't consistent.
With Brother Goose, I'm excited for the years ahead.
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Roster continuity is vital
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For the first time in awhile, I don't think we need to worry about recruiting. He's going to get the 3/4 stars that fit his scheme and play his way.
This.
In 1.5 seasons, Shaka has done what Wojo could never do .. this team is greater than the sum of its parts.
MU has always needed a coach who could do that, who could take a few 4-stars and 3-stars and get them working well together.
I just can't believe how far ahead of "schedule" this team is.
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The biggest threat to continuity won't be players leaving early to go pro. It will be players considering transfers given the current rules and NIL.
I think it could for sure be an issue for low and mid major programs losing guys to P6 programs due to NIL. Jury is still out on how it will affect P6 to P6 transfers. I’m thinking most P6 programs will make the effort and retain their players as far NIL goes.
I wonder what the over-under on transfers will be that meet these conditions for next year:
1. The player transferring played at a P6 and is going to another P6.
2. The player transferring started at their former team and played more than 20min a game.
3. There was not a coaching change from either program or there wasn’t some other dramatic event that occurred (sanctions, etc.)
I’d define the above as a likely NIL poach, but maybe there are other factors I’m missing.
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I think it could for sure be an issue for low and mid major programs losing guys to P6 programs due to NIL. Jury is still out on how it will affect P6 to P6 transfers. I’m thinking most P6 programs will make the effort and retain their players as far NIL goes.
I wonder what the over-under on transfers will be that meet these conditions for next year:
1. The player transferring played at a P6 and is going to another P6.
2. The player transferring started at their former team and played more than 20min a game.
3. There was not a coaching change from either program or there wasn’t some other dramatic event that occurred (sanctions, etc.)
I’d define the above as a likely NIL poach, but maybe there are other factors I’m missing.
Marquette doesn’t have anything to worry about
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Roster continuity is vital
Brother Rico:
You don't have roster continuity without coaching continuity.
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Brother Rico:
You don't have roster continuity without coaching continuity.
That’s part of it. Good coaches lose assistants if they’re hiring the right people. I trust the current coach to hire the right people
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This.
In 1.5 seasons, Shaka has done what Wojo could never do .. this team is greater than the sum of its parts.
MU has always needed a coach who could do that, who could take a few 4-stars and 3-stars and get them working well together.
I just can't believe how far ahead of "schedule" this team is.
Precisely. Wojo was never an alchemist. He was paint-by-numbers.
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I think it could for sure be an issue for low and mid major programs losing guys to P6 programs due to NIL. Jury is still out on how it will affect P6 to P6 transfers. I’m thinking most P6 programs will make the effort and retain their players as far NIL goes.
I wonder what the over-under on transfers will be that meet these conditions for next year:
1. The player transferring played at a P6 and is going to another P6.
2. The player transferring started at their former team and played more than 20min a game.
3. There was not a coaching change from either program or there wasn’t some other dramatic event that occurred (sanctions, etc.)
I’d define the above as a likely NIL poach, but maybe there are other factors I’m missing.
Tyrese Hunter going from Iowa State to Texas was a definite NIL poach.
I am not sure I would say they have nothing to worry about, but I think it's a concern they need to be aware of and plan for. And I am sure they have.
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I am thinking we will see more consistency in the type of team that Shaka puts together each year. The players he recruits will fit what he’s trying to do which seems the obvious thing to do but I thought that was somewhat inverted under the previous coach. They instead seemed to go after the best possible players and then go from there and try build a winning team around the individual pieces each year. As a result, they didn’t have much identity as a program as the team was so different in most years for the most part.
I agree though and I think MU will start having their pick of the litter under Shaka. He will plug a transfer or one in done in when it makes sense (ie if Oso goes pro after this year), but I think he prefers guys who will be here at least 2-3 years so we will continue to get a lot of guys in the 80-120 range of the recruiting rankings.
Fantastic point CR. I used to constantly state in the past we had zero team identity under Wojo. 0.0. That always discouraged me as our margin for error was miniscule during the Mighty Mites/Sam teams. Going bananas from distance and allowing a lay-up line at the other end isn't an identity. Wojo apparently never understood this or how to build team cohesion.
What I see from this group are players that constantly fight, understand their roles, and play for each other and their leader on the bench. I heard Jim Craig (USA 1980 Hockey) mention in an interview with Linda Cohn that "a team is as confident as their coach is" in reference to Herb Brooks. This is so true and Shaka exudes this quiet confidence which he passed down to our players. Again, I'm not getting ahead of ourselves and understand winning is hard and there's tremendous parity in college hoops. Nevertheless, there is zero doubt in my mind that we are moving towards building a consistently excellent program for the years to come.
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Tyrese Hunter going from Iowa State to Texas was a definite NIL poach.
I am not sure I would say they have nothing to worry about, but I think it's a concern they need to be aware of and plan for. And I am sure they have.
Hunter wanted to transfer following the coaching change. TJO asked him to stay for the year and re-evaluate. Now, was there communication between Hunter’s side and other schools? Probably
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Overlooked is roster composition. Crean and Wojo always had holes. Shaka got right into it and got "his guys" in here even if a few of them were Wojo's guys. No "five (or 7) years to judge."
The one blip this year was Wrightsil's injury and his board work, but that's not a miss.
That said, I was a COLE this year (step back year: bubble or NIT) because of youth and the Alphas moving on. Figuring next season was the big jump with experience. This team's Alpha is "the team". No one guy is "the guy" which has been the fun part of the surprise.
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MU has always needed a coach who could do that, who could take a few 4-stars and 3-stars and get them working well together.
I completely agree with this. I sometimes look at some of the guys Shaka is recruiting and scratch my head. Never again. Shaka knows what he is doing for sure and will bring in the guys that fit. I don’t know if this was his final ranking but I just looked and Chase Ross was a 3 star ranked 177 in his class!!!! Shaka can coach guys up but he can also recognize talent.
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This is my take on the resurgence of MU basketball and the state of the program:
1. The hiring of Shaka may prove to be the single greatest hire in MU history and not 100% based on basketball. Shaka and the program have an identity, is involved in the community and the face of Marquette. IMO, that this will be an outstanding marketing tool for the university as a whole. The MU community is at a high level of excitement at the moment and MU needs to capitalize on that.
2. There never was a doubt in mind that Shaka could coach, recruit and instill a system that would be extremely fun to watch.
3. I hope by now that everyone can agree that Shaka and the staff can identify talent (even sleepers) and excels at player development.
4. I do not believe this year's team will be talked about down the road as one of the great teams during the Shaka era at MU. I firmly believe that the talent level will be at a much higher level 2-3 years down the road. It might be filled with better shooters or better defenders, but he will get players. I believe it is going to be interesting to see recruits that were lost that enter the portal and have multiple years yet to play. It would be hard to believe a kid not wanting to play this style of ball.
5. The only negative I have, which is a positive for this year, is repeating the magic of this team. I believe Shaka will have a great culture, but this team seems special beyond belief in this area. No ego's, no hero ball and a team drive to win. I credit Kolek for being the driving force, yet I could be wrong that.
6. Lastly, I 100% believe that Shaka is sharp enough to always be learning and making adjustments. Two years from now they might be top ten in defense because of the players recruited. I am not worried about the program being stale or not changing depending on personal.
To me, resurgence is becoming a program that is ranked far more than not ranked, plays meaningful games in March on a regular basis and has a chance to win the whole thing. I love MU ball like everyone on here, but not enough to put time/money into a team that is a bubble program. That is not fun, winning is fun. IMO, we have not even begun to see winning under Shaka.
All that said, after yesterday my bar was raised again for this year. Because of the chemistry (which I believe is off the charts), the style of play and success already had this year, I am counting on a real run in March.
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If Emarion was healthy and had progressed at the same rate as the rest of the returnees....
He reportedly had actually grown as well as added muscle.
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Tyrese Hunter going from Iowa State to Texas was a definite NIL poach.
I am not sure I would say they have nothing to worry about, but I think it's a concern they need to be aware of and plan for. And I am sure they have.
Could we lose a player to NIL? Sure. Could we then turnaround and make an offer to a viable replacement and illustrate the caliber of team/program the new player would be joining? Yes.
Winning BIG solves a lot of problems. Shaka is the absolute perfect coach at the perfect time for MU. His whole emphasis is on relationships/building culture. He has the utmost respect from his players, and I suspect their parents too. I don't think we will see many transfers out due to NIL, or due to discontent.
Shaka's got it figured out now: His success and happiness is tied to growing 3-4 star players, into stars, and enjoying the growth in the relationship that happens over the 3-4 year timeframe, versus the 5 star one and done.
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Chase's sledgehammer dunk yesterday surprised the announcer.....this kid will be electric in the open floor for several years in an MU uni.
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This is my take on the resurgence of MU basketball and the state of the program:
1. The hiring of Shaka may prove to be the single greatest hire in MU history and not 100% based on basketball. Shaka and the program have an identity, is involved in the community and the face of Marquette. IMO, the this will be an outstanding marketing tool for the university as a whole. The MU community is at a high level of excitement at the moment and MU needs to capitalize on that.
2. There never was a doubt in mind that Shaka could coach, recruit and instill a system that would be extremely fun to watch.
3. I hope by now that everyone can agree that Shaka and the staff can identify talent (even sleepers) and excels at player development.
4. I do not believe this year's team will be talked about down the road as one of the great teams during the Shaka era at MU. I firmly believe that the talent level will be at a much higher level 2-3 years down the road. It might be filled with better shooters or better defenders, but he will get players. I believe it is going to be interesting to see recruits that were lost that enter the portal and have multiple years yet to play. It would be hard to believe a kid not wanting to play this style of ball.
5. The only negative I have, which is a positive for this year, is repeating the magic of this team. I believe Shaka will have a great culture, but this team seems special beyond belief in this area. No ego's, no hero ball and a team drive to win. I credit Kolek for being the driving force, yet I could be wrong that.
6. Lastly, I 100% believe that Shaka is sharp enough to always be learning and making adjustments. Two years from now they might be top ten in defense because of the players recruited. I am not worried about the program being stale or not changing depending on personal.
To me, resurgence is becoming a program that is ranked far more than not ranked, plays meaningful games in March on a regular basis and has a chance to win the whole thing. I love MU ball like everyone on here, but not enough to put time/money into a team that is a bubble program. That is not fun, winning is fun. IMO, we have not even begun to see winning under Shaka.
All that said, after yesterday my bar was raised again for this year. Because of the chemistry (which I believe is off the charts), the style of play and success already had this year, I am counting on a real run in March.
Great points Goose. FWIW my definition of "Resurgence" in this context is a team squarely in the NCAA tournament every year with the potential to be a top 4 seed.
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Dr. B
I have said it many times but I think the biggest reason for the lack of holes is because every guy is basketball player and not a project on this team. There is not a guy on this team that is not a basketball player first, followed by being an athletic basketball player. This team's underdogs bring tangible skills to the squad, not just I hope this guy really gets good. The closet I see to an underdog on this team is Stevie, if that is the case, they are in great shape.
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brew
This team has not exceeded my expectations on number of wins so far this season, but the style and excitement are ahead of schedule, IMO. The excitement of this team is real and ahead of schedule. Never doubted it would be must see basketball, but it is even better than expected this season. Who knows, they might just be scratching the surface and more excitement to come down the road.
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The biggest threat to continuity won't be players leaving early to go pro. It will be players considering transfers given the current rules and NIL.
I think the players really, really, really like Shaka, so this does not worry me anymore.
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Dr. B
I have said it many times but I think the biggest reason for the lack of holes is because every guy is basketball player and not a project on this team. There is not a guy on this team that is not a basketball player first, followed by being an athletic basketball player. This team's underdogs bring tangible skills to the squad, not just I hope this guy really gets good. The closet I see to an underdog on this team is Stevie, if that is the case, they are in great shape.
I mostly agree, but I think there are "projects" on the roster. Itejere, Gold, Ellis come to mind. What's different versus Wojo (i.e., Cain) is that Shaka has a plan for their development. And he talks about their plan publicly in a way that we can understand how the pieces are fitting together. But I am sure it is more appreciated by those student athletes that they have a role now to develop and mature.
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This is my take on the resurgence of MU basketball and the state of the program:
1. The hiring of Shaka may prove to be the single greatest hire in MU history and not 100% based on basketball. Shaka and the program have an identity, is involved in the community and the face of Marquette. IMO, the this will be an outstanding marketing tool for the university as a whole. The MU community is at a high level of excitement at the moment and MU needs to capitalize on that.
2. There never was a doubt in mind that Shaka could coach, recruit and instill a system that would be extremely fun to watch.
3. I hope by now that everyone can agree that Shaka and the staff can identify talent (even sleepers) and excels at player development.
4. I do not believe this year's team will be talked about down the road as one of the great teams during the Shaka era at MU. I firmly believe that the talent level will be at a much higher level 2-3 years down the road. It might be filled with better shooters or better defenders, but he will get players. I believe it is going to be interesting to see recruits that were lost that enter the portal and have multiple years yet to play. It would be hard to believe a kid not wanting to play this style of ball.
5. The only negative I have, which is a positive for this year, is repeating the magic of this team. I believe Shaka will have a great culture, but this team seems special beyond belief in this area. No ego's, no hero ball and a team drive to win. I credit Kolek for being the driving force, yet I could be wrong that.
6. Lastly, I 100% believe that Shaka is sharp enough to always be learning and making adjustments. Two years from now they might be top ten in defense because of the players recruited. I am not worried about the program being stale or not changing depending on personal.
To me, resurgence is becoming a program that is ranked far more than not ranked, plays meaningful games in March on a regular basis and has a chance to win the whole thing. I love MU ball like everyone on here, but not enough to put time/money into a team that is a bubble program. That is not fun, winning is fun. IMO, we have not even begun to see winning under Shaka.
All that said, after yesterday my bar was raised again for this year. Because of the chemistry (which I believe is off the charts), the style of play and success already had this year, I am counting on a real run in March.
Excellent post, Goose.
My only quibble is that I don't think you give Oso enough credit in point #5 above. Like Kolek, he is a "connector" -- a highly intelligent, team-first guy who is always thinking about ways to put his teammates in position to succeed. The almost unbelievable degree to which he improved is relevant -- it makes him a tremendous role model, and it speaks to Shaka's ability to both develop talent and think outside the box. There already have been a few national stories about Oso, and there will be dozens more during what we both expect will be a memorable month of March. Such notoriety can only help Shaka's recruiting.
Recruiting is never "easy," but I agree with you (and others) that Shaka's Marquette program will only get more attractive to kids who want to play in an incredibly fun, successful, share-the-ball system under a "cool" coach who simply gets it.
Could we lose a player to NIL? Sure. Could we then turnaround and make an offer to a viable replacement and illustrate the caliber of team/program the new player would be joining? Yes.
Winning BIG solves a lot of problems. Shaka is the absolute perfect coach at the perfect time for MU. His whole emphasis is on relationships/building culture. He has the utmost respect from his players, and I suspect their parents too. I don't think we will see many transfers out due to NIL, or due to discontent.
Shaka's got it figured out now: His success and happiness is tied to growing 3-4 star players, into stars, and enjoying the growth in the relationship that happens over the 3-4 year timeframe, versus the 5 star one and done.
Yep yep yep.
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Dr. B
Fair points. Aside from Keeyan, I do think Gold and Ellis are basketball players that need to be developed and that is a difference that Shaka seems to bring to the table. Definitely agree on the guys knowing their roles and how they need to improve to get playing time. It is refreshing to hear the coach share that with the fanbase.
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As for #5, I was more talking the fxxk 'em attitude and how that carries over to winning. No doubt Oso has become a great leader this year, often he is the most vocal guy on the team. Again, I think Kolek brings that "it" factor on having an edge and expecting to win. There is not a guy on the team that is not pulling their weight, and all are easy to cheer for. I have said to my buddies and kids, if Joplin is our biggest frustration on the court, things are very, very good on Wisconsin Ave.
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As for #5, I was more talking the fxxk 'em attitude and how that carries over to winning. No doubt Oso has become a great leader this year, often he is the most vocal guy on the team. Again, I think Kolek brings that "it" factor on having an edge and expecting to win. There is not a guy on the team that is not pulling their weight, and all are easy to cheer for. I have said to my buddies and kids, if Joplin is our biggest frustration on the court, things are very, very good on Wisconsin Ave.
Understood, and more great points.
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brew
This team has not exceeded my expectations on number of wins so far this season, but the style and excitement are ahead of schedule, IMO. The excitement of this team is real and ahead of schedule. Never doubted it would be must see basketball, but it is even better than expected this season. Who knows, they might just be scratching the surface and more excitement to come down the road.
Agreed. I think my preseason win total at this point matches our actual record, but the way they play, the improvement (including in season), and the style all surprise me a bit.
One place I'll quibble, though, is how this team will be remembered. I think this team could be Shaka's George Thompson. I know Thompson didn't reach the level of success Al's teams in the 1970s would, but he set the stage. I think this team could be that and the one we look back at as "that was when everyone knew."
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brew
To me, last season will be remembered for being the team that got it going. I was never a GE guy, but he played a big role on changing the face of the program. Last year set the tone for this season and the program as a whole, IMO. Down the road, I think Tyler Kolek will be remembered for being Shaka's Brute Force. Not for talent or being a major recruit, but for creating the identity of the program. He will be the face of the Shaka era and the guy that got it going.
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Dr. B
Fair points. Aside from Keeyan, I do think Gold and Ellis are basketball players that need to be developed and that is a difference that Shaka seems to bring to the table. Definitely agree on the guys knowing their roles and how they need to improve to get playing time. It is refreshing to hear the coach share that with the fanbase.
Remember one of these three will be leaving for better talent coming in. Hoping it is one of these three. I have to believe the other 8 like Shaka and the program, to stay. Sean Jones might be on the shirt stick as Norman May take his minutes. Time will tell
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Shaka going to Texas and MU getting Wojo was the best thing that could have possibly happened. Now Shaka knows what life is like at the "big job" and appreciates MU because of it. He seems to know he has a good thing at MU and I would be shocked if he left. It's like the stars lined up perfectly for both MU and Shaka and a long-term partnership has been born.
As far as this year's team is concerned, I enjoy watching them as much as anyone. I hope the players are having as much fun as we are watching them. The Big East season is a grind, and it will be interesting to see how they hold up psychologically in the second half. Barring injury, I think they will be fine physically, but the mental and emotional strain must be hard for young players.
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I had among the highest expectations for this team and they are still blowing past them. So I guess "F**k me" too :D
Shaka always talks about the potential he sees in guys, and takes responsibility if there are things he needs to do to help them get better. That said, I doubt he thought the TEAM would reach this level this year either. So maybe F**k him too!
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Remember one of these three will be leaving for better talent coming in. Hoping it is one of these three. I have to believe the other 8 like Shaka and the program, to stay. Sean Jones might be on the shirt stick as Norman May take his minutes. Time will tell
It is possible Oso and/or OMax test the NBA draft. If Oso keeps improving as rapidly as we've seen this season, I think its plausible he could get drafted (despite not having a perimeter shot at this stage). Oso turns just 21 in July. Lots of upside there.
Yet, I think Oso also is the type of kid who can see how special the team could be next year, and if we don't advance far this season - he's inclined to want to run it back with his teammates. If that happens, I think it's Keeyan who is the odd man out.
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rgoode
Last year you could see the effort physically and the mental grind during the good run and it looked tiring to me. Simply, they were not good enough to sustain that without a perfect effort. This season, it looks like there is a lot left in the tank. I am not worried about a mental or physical letdown this season.
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Three of our 5 starters -- Kolek, O-Max and Mitchell -- combined for 19 points, 6 assists, 7 turnovers and 4 rebounds.
Despite that, we had a 21-point victory on the road against a team that had won its previous 4 games.
We have a lot of way to beat opponents.
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Remember one of these three will be leaving for better talent coming in. Hoping it is one of these three. I have to believe the other 8 like Shaka and the program, to stay. Sean Jones might be on the shirt stick as Norman May take his minutes. Time will tell
I think this take is off base to the plan.
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I think this take is off base to the plan.
You don't think Shaka will Crean anybody?
I think he'll go about it differently, maintaining the relationship, coaching the player to realize that they will get more playing time and have more fun by dropping down a level. But I bet he "recruits over" folks at the end of the day.
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5 years to judge. What will happen when Wojo hasn’t gifted us the majority of our stellar starting lineup aina?
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I think this take is off base to the plan.
Somebody is leaving, and I do not believe Oso or Omax are NBA ready
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BC
I would be surprised if only one left after this season. I am good with that because that is progress. My heart wants to believe Oso and Omax are back and hope that is the case. Depending on how things shake out, I could see one of the guards, aside from Ellis, leaving after this season.
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5 years to judge. What will happen when Wojo hasn’t gifted us the majority of our stellar starting lineup aina?
Shaka hires Wojo to be his recruiting ace, due to his incredible charisma and intellect.
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BC
I would be surprised if only one left after this season. I am good with that because that is progress. My heart wants to believe Oso and Omax are back and hope that is the case. Depending on how things shake out, I could see one of the guards, aside from Ellis, leaving after this season.
2 would be great, add another big in the transfer portal would help. Last years transfer did not work, but kids watch MU now they have to be impressed with the system they are playing.
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I prefer continuity to the mythical impact big.
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The type of results are what I thought was possible, and my expectations were a top 15-25 type team in the preseason. I think Goose and I were of similar minds that while most were looking at what we lost, not enough were looking at what we brought back.
I mentioned to the Three Man Weave guys in preseason that we were basically Creighton in that we brought back a starting PG (Kolek/Nembhard) and forward (O-Max/Kaluma), as well as elevating a key reserve (Mitchell/Alexander). For all three of those, Marquette had the more efficient player. We both had high-efficiency bigs (Oso/Kalk). We both lost our best players (Justin/Hawkins) and supplementary scorers (Morsell/O'Connell). The biggest question was replacing that offensive pop, we did so from within (Kam) while they did so from outside (Scheierman).
They mostly dismissed Marquette being better, like all of the national media did, but this team was about what we brought back. What's impressed me the most, however, is how rapidly Coach Smart has brought development out of these guys. I expected Tyler, Kam, O-Max, and Oso to be good, but Stevie's efficiency, Joplin's usefulness (even his defense has shown signs of life the past few games), and Chase Ohmigod Ross really look good.
I had among the highest expectations for this team and they are still blowing past them. So I guess "F**k me" too :D
Unrelated. I have been watching some Creighton games lately, they look really good. By far the best defensive team in this conference. I could see them being a Big East title contender at the end of the year with Marquette.
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You don't think Shaka will Crean anybody?
I think he'll go about it differently, maintaining the relationship, coaching the player to realize that they will get more playing time and have more fun by dropping down a level. But I bet he "recruits over" folks at the end of the day.
Well he "Creaned" a few of Wojo's guys. But, in this case, I think the plan was very clear when they took the overcommit.
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Excellent post, Goose.
My only quibble is that I don't think you give Oso enough credit in point #5 above. Like Kolek, he is a "connector" -- a highly intelligent, team-first guy who is always thinking about ways to put his teammates in position to succeed. The almost unbelievable degree to which he improved is relevant -- it makes him a tremendous role model, and it speaks to Shaka's ability to both develop talent and think outside the box. There already have been a few national stories about Oso, and there will be dozens more during what we both expect will be a memorable month of March. Such notoriety can only help Shaka's recruiting.
Recruiting is never "easy," but I agree with you (and others) that Shaka's Marquette program will only get more attractive to kids who want to play in an incredibly fun, successful, share-the-ball system under a "cool" coach who simply gets it.
Yep yep yep.
So the Hausers would have loved Shaka. ;D
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Well he "Creaned" a few of Wojo's guys. But, in this case, I think the plan was very clear when they took the overcommit.
Brother Doc, you have to. With NIL and immediate transfers, if you don't Crean a few players, you end up with rosters like Wojos that had empty scholarships.
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So the Hausers would have loved Shaka. ;D
Sam: Absolutely.
Joey: No, especially when Coach Shaka sits him on his ass for not being connected.
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Shaka hires Wojo to be his recruiting ace, due to his incredible charisma and intellect.
Now, that....is funny. While there may be intellect, charisma is lacking
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Somebody is leaving, and I do not believe Oso or Omax are NBA ready
Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. Did you believe Vander was ready? Did you believe Carton was ready? Did you believe Lewis was ready?
College kids leave when they leave for a variety of reasons — none of which is whether Scoopers think they’re ready.
Now, maybe NIL, plus feeling really comfortable with Shaka, the other players and the program’s direction, could factor into either or both staying.
We’ll see!
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Another great thread.
Scoopers are on a heater today.
Times are good.
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I just can't believe how far ahead of "schedule" this team is.
Blah blah blah five years blah
It’s great to be on the right track and I think people are right. The best part about getting a system rolling is that you can select a couple players a year that fit as opposed to going after best that says yes regardless of fit.
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One thing I did not mention on my earlier post, but it might be the biggest reason for my optimism with Shaka from day one. The hiring of Shaka was big deal and his being a seasoned HC, aside from Shaka the person, was what I was most excited about.
I, and I think Dr. B., stated the meter on judging Shaka started the day he signed the contract. There was no five year grace period and there should not have been a long leash.
MU showed what basketball means to the school with this hire and for the gamble to work, it needed quick results, IMO. Apathy had taken over much of the fanbase and patience was running thin.
The hiring of a high level HC changed everything to me. Plus, Shaka arrived with a lot to prove and that was important to me. Sure, he was going to get time, but I do not think a five year rebuild was ever part of the conversation.
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Overlooked is roster composition. Crean and Wojo always had holes. Shaka got right into it and got "his guys" in here even if a few of them were Wojo's guys. No "five (or 7) years to judge."
To be fair, this statement was made in the context of low-major hires or promoted assistants--not guys coming in with a P6 pedigree.
You don't need to give Miller or Smart or Anderson five years--you knew what you were getting when you hired them. In other words, they already had their five+ years, and they passed the test at the Big East level.
On the other hand, it would be highly unfair to make any conclusion about Neptune or even Stubblefield right now. They inherited tough situations (Neptune with a depleted roster and injuries, Stubblefield with a major rebuild). Even if Villanova was winning at full strength, fans would want to see if he can recruit to the level that Jay Wright did.
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Overlooked is roster composition. Crean and Wojo always had holes. Shaka got right into it and got "his guys" in here even if a few of them were Wojo's guys. No "five (or 7) years to judge."
The one blip this year was Wrightsil's injury and his board work, but that's not a miss.
That said, I was a COLE this year (step back year: bubble or NIT) because of youth and the Alphas moving on. Figuring next season was the big jump with experience. This team's Alpha is "the team". No one guy is "the guy" which has been the fun part of the surprise.
Yep…..glad Shaka is our coach…..and I’m glad Wojo recruited Oso, Kam and Stevie before he was let go.
This team would look very different without those guys.
I know this team lost Justin, Morsell and Kur and has gotten better……I think if people expect that to happen consistently they are probably fooling themselves.
The pieces fit on this team……players complement each other……every coach will have to deal with attrition……sometimes it works out fine…….sometimes it doesn’t.
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Whether you believe it or not is immaterial. Did you believe Vander was ready? Did you believe Carton was ready? Did you believe Lewis was ready?
College kids leave when they leave for a variety of reasons — none of which is whether Scoopers think they’re ready.
Now, maybe NIL, plus feeling really comfortable with Shaka, the other players and the program’s direction, could factor into either or both staying.
We’ll see!
True, but looking at some mock drafts they are not even sniffing the Top 60. Omax has improved but lacks some consistency and Oso who might be the most improved
player in the country, does not fit the NBA game yet. Both need at least another year to get stronger and work on there game a little bit more. I would be more concerned about the NLI money being thrown around. Yes, both received some decent money this year but not millions some of these football players are getting.
Shaka has brought the best out of Oso, offense is run threw him, not many programs are doing that, he changed the offense to best fit Oso, and he has proved Shaka
right. Like you said, time will tell. A deep run in the tournament may want them to comeback and do better the following year. Hope that is the case.
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True, but looking at some mock drafts they are not even sniffing the Top 60. Omax has improved but lacks some consistency and Oso who might be the most improved
player in the country, does not fit the NBA game yet. Both need at least another year to get stronger and work on there game a little bit more. I would be more concerned about the NLI money being thrown around. Yes, both received some decent money this year but not millions some of these football players are getting.
Shaka has brought the best out of Oso, offense is run threw him, not many programs are doing that, he changed the offense to best fit Oso, and he has proved Shaka
right. Like you said, time will tell. A deep run in the tournament may want them to comeback and do better the following year. Hope that is the case.
Re your first sentence: Again, you are acting like that actually matters. If guys want to go, they will go. The last 10 years of Marquette basketball have proven that over and over again. Blue, Carton and Bailey were showing up in few (if any) mock drafts and they obviously weren't "ready." They left anyway. I'm sure you felt each needed another year in college. They left anyway.
Of course Oso and O-Max aren't "ready."
So?
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Re your first sentence: Again, you are acting like that actually matters. If guys want to go, they will go. The last 10 years of Marquette basketball have proven that over and over again. Blue, Carton and Bailey were showing up in few (if any) mock drafts and they obviously weren't "ready." They left anyway. I'm sure you felt each needed another year in college. They left anyway.
Of course Oso and O-Max aren't "ready."
So?
With a side note that Vander, Carton, Bailey weren't able to get paid in College.
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The type of results are what I thought was possible, and my expectations were a top 15-25 type team in the preseason.
What's impressed me the most, however, is how rapidly Coach Smart has brought development out of these guys. I expected Tyler, Kam, O-Max, and Oso to be good, but Stevie's efficiency, Joplin's usefulness (even his defense has shown signs of life the past few games), and Chase Ohmigod Ross really look good.
I had among the highest expectations for this team and they are still blowing past them. So I guess "F**k me" too :D
My expectations were quite a bit lower, and I'm absolutely delighted to have been so wrong. I think that you are completely correct to point to the player development as a key factor. I admit I did not foresee it because we were not used to expecting it. We've seen multiple players correct shortcomings and develop new skills. Yes, I am attributing it to Shaka because this is year-to-year improvement we haven't seen since JFB. This kind of development is suggestive of a coach that views his job as a year-round gig and who seeks to facilitate the most improvement for the kids that have committed to play for him. I am enjoying the ride, and the sensation of MU hoops being relevant again. And the best thing is, it feels like we're still on the upcurve. Go, Warriors!
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Re your first sentence: Again, you are acting like that actually matters. If guys want to go, they will go. The last 10 years of Marquette basketball have proven that over and over again. Blue, Carton and Bailey were showing up in few (if any) mock drafts and they obviously weren't "ready." They left anyway. I'm sure you felt each needed another year in college. They left anyway.
Of course Oso and O-Max aren't "ready."
So?
What a silly point this is. Should we worry about Sean Jones going pro too? Or maybe Stevie?
Of course college players can choose to go pro at any time. Do you have a reason you think Omax or Oso would be inclined to do so? Feels like scoopers were awfully influenced by a couple CBSSN broadcast comments about scouts in attendance.
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The biggest threat to continuity won't be players leaving early to go pro. It will be players considering transfers given the current rules and NIL.
No.
They love Shaka, and playing for him.
That’s good for more than you think.
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One thing I did not mention on my earlier post, but it might be the biggest reason for my optimism with Shaka from day one. The hiring of Shaka was big deal and his being a seasoned HC, aside from Shaka the person, was what I was most excited about.
I, and I think Dr. B., stated the meter on judging Shaka started the day he signed the contract. There was no five year grace period and there should not have been a long leash.
MU showed what basketball means to the school with this hire and for the gamble to work, it needed quick results, IMO. Apathy had taken over much of the fanbase and patience was running thin.
The hiring of a high level HC changed everything to me. Plus, Shaka arrived with a lot to prove and that was important to me. Sure, he was going to get time, but I do not think a five year rebuild was ever part of the conversation.
Excellent post, Goose!
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The biggest threat to continuity won’t be NIL. It will be “believing the hype” with hype being on its way for this program, in spades. I don’t think even that is a threat, as Shaka knows what buttons to push to keep guys within the culture at all times. Buzz was always fond of saying “we have zero margin for error”. If this team and future teams still play with this humble mindset, despite evidence to the contrary, look out!
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With a side note that Vander, Carton, Bailey weren't able to get paid in College.
Good point. In my first response to BC, I said NIL could help keep kids in school.
What a silly point this is. Should we worry about Sean Jones going pro too? Or maybe Stevie?
Of course college players can choose to go pro at any time. Do you have a reason you think Omax or Oso would be inclined to do so? Feels like scoopers were awfully influenced by a couple CBSSN broadcast comments about scouts in attendance.
With all due respect, I was responding to a Scooper who keeps opining that guys won’t go pro because they’re “not ready” — as if supposedly not being ready keeps kids from going pro.
I do not “worry” about this at all.
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Good point. In my first response to BC, I said NIL could help keep kids in school.
With all due respect, I was responding to a Scooper who keeps opining that guys won’t go pro because they’re “not ready” — as if supposedly not being ready keeps kids from going pro.
I do not “worry” about this at all.
I hear you. No doubt the decision to go pro early is not always made conservatively.
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It is possible Oso and/or OMax test the NBA draft. If Oso keeps improving as rapidly as we've seen this season, I think its plausible he could get drafted (despite not having a perimeter shot at this stage). Oso turns just 21 in July. Lots of upside there.
Yet, I think Oso also is the type of kid who can see how special the team could be next year, and if we don't advance far this season - he's inclined to want to run it back with his teammates. If that happens, I think it's Keeyan who is the odd man out.
imo, Oso does not have a nba-ready game, yet. Outside of about 6’, he’s got what, a push shot? Another year of offensive development needed. Defensively he’s close. Another year to add some upper body strength will help him immensely. Oso will be back next season leading Marquette on a deep run in March. Then the nba will be in his future.
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We're ahead of schedule Scoopers. Goose discussed our resurgence before the start of last season so give the man credit. I thought we would be in this position closer to mid year 3, but Shaka and these guys have proved me wrong. We can take this program to the tier 1 level and sustain it, that's what Goose meant by the "Resurgence".
Now, in the midst to this climb back to greatness, coming out and zipping down the floor, we see a team that is as exciting as any group in the entire nation. This is not hyperbole, we can attract the kind of players I and others have discussed for years that seemingly never took the pluge to Milwaukee. Guys who want to get up and down the floor, zoom with pace and space, slice and dice defenses, and play free flowing hoops. We can now attract the Chase Ross type athlete as an example.
Anyway, I believe this season and our aesthetically pleasing style, will lead to players wanting to come to MU both as hs players and transfers. The entire picture is not complete and we have plenty of work to do but the trajectory of this MU program continues to climb. The decade of dominance, something we have all wanted, may in fact be on the horizon. Props to Shaka and our entire roster.
Just wanted to respond to Muggys opening post
Last Season
I was bullish before the start of last season. My enthusiasm was based on the experienced players we had on the roster .
This Season
I was bullish before the start of this season . My enthusiasm was based on player improvement and that I felt the Big East Competition was winnable
I don’t know ball , but I guess that proves a broken clock is right twice a day
I will admit I was surprised at the level of cohesion of this years team and the coaching prep for each game . Combined those attributes has enabled the team to do so well and be competitive each game .
Going Forward
We have three solid classes in house right now . The Juniors are all doing excellent , The Sophs are excellent /solid and we have Freshman that have demonstrated promise and upside
It appears as if the 2023 recruiting class has prospects that conform to Shaka’s style of play . I am bullish on that class.
So overall we will have athletic depth
Transfers /NIL
Transfers and NIL are unknown . My guess is given MU performance under Shaka this season , we may end up on the plus side of the Transfer /NIL equation . MU may be seen as an attractive destination . Especially to players moving up a conference .
Players Going Pro
I am in the camp that says Players going Pro is a positive for program development . Depth can absorb those departures
Recruiting Post 2023
Success breeds success and it appears the pipeline of prospects is loaded.
Resurgence
I think it is safe to say MU is positioned well to be among the Big East leaders with Shaka in charge . If we continue to do well in conference , we can achieve deep tournament runs.
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"I know this team lost Justin, Morsell and Kur and has gotten better……I think if people expect that to happen consistently they are probably fooling themselves."
COLE
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Just wanted to respond to Muggys opening post
Last Season
I was bullish before the start of last season. My enthusiasm was based on the experienced players we had on the roster .
This Season
I was bullish before the start of this season . My enthusiasm was based on player improvement and that I felt the Big East Competition was winnable
I don’t know ball , but I guess that proves a broken clock is right twice a day
I will admit I was surprised at the level of cohesion of this years team and the coaching prep for each game . Combined those attributes has enabled the team to do so well and be competitive each game .
Going Forward
We have three solid classes in house right now . The Juniors are all doing excellent , The Sophs are excellent /solid and we have Freshman that have demonstrated promise and upside
It appears as if the 2023 recruiting class has prospects that conform to Shaka’s style of play . I am bullish on that class.
So overall we will have athletic depth
Transfers /NIL
Transfers and NIL are unknown . My guess is given MU performance under Shaka this season , we may end up on the plus side of the Transfer /NIL equation . MU may be seen as an attractive destination . Especially to players moving up a conference .
Players Going Pro
I am in the camp that says Players going Pro is a positive for program development . Depth can absorb those departures
Recruiting Post 2023
Success breeds success and it appears the pipeline of prospects is loaded.
Resurgence
I think it is safe to say MU is positioned well to be among the Big East leaders with Shaka in charge . If we continue to do well in conference , we can achieve deep tournament runs.
Good post Herm. Agree with your analysis.
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I think it is safe to say the fanbase is rejuvenated!
It helps that NMD falls on a Saturday with a 1 o'clock game this year, but the cheapest tickets on the secondary market for a group of 3 are like $176 a piece after fees.
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I think it is safe to say the fanbase is rejuvenated!
It helps that NMD falls on a Saturday with a 1 o'clock game this year, but the cheapest tickets on the secondary market for a group of 3 are like $176 a piece after fees.
Moisted
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Nice shoutout on MU's offensive prowess from Rothstein here:
https://collegehoopstoday.com/index.php/rothstein-files/the-breakfast-buffet-marquette-marcus-sasser-uconn-aims-to-get-its-mojo-back/
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To be fair, this statement was made in the context of low-major hires or promoted assistants--not guys coming in with a P6 pedigree.
You don't need to give Miller or Smart or Anderson five years--you knew what you were getting when you hired them. In other words, they already had their five+ years, and they passed the test at the Big East level.
On the other hand, it would be highly unfair to make any conclusion about Neptune or even Stubblefield right now. They inherited tough situations (Neptune with a depleted roster and injuries, Stubblefield with a major rebuild). Even if Villanova was winning at full strength, fans would want to see if he can recruit to the level that Jay Wright did.
Iirc, Chicos was the original 5 years to judge guy and his argument wasn't about proven HCs vs promoted assistants or low major guys. It was about giving a new coach, regardless of background, an opportunity to coach a recruiting class from HS seniors to college seniors. His logic was that if you judge any sooner than that, you may be unfairly blaming or crediting the new coach for recruiting/development done by their predecessor. Hopkins at UW comes to mind. He won with Romars recruits and once we they were gone he crashed hard.
The logic was sound at the time but it's outdated now. Instant transfers means you can easily run off dead weight from the previous administration and instantly add impact transfers who fit your style of play. Great coaches shouldn't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
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Iirc, Chicos was the original 5 years to judge guy and his argument wasn't about proven HCs vs promoted assistants or low major guys. It was about giving a new coach, regardless of background, an opportunity to coach a recruiting class from HS seniors to college seniors. His logic was that if you judge any sooner than that, you may be unfairly blaming or crediting the new coach for recruiting/development done by their predecessor. Hopkins at UW comes to mind. He won with Romars recruits and once we they were gone he crashed hard.
The logic was sound at the time but it's outdated now. Instant transfers means you can easily run off dead weight from the previous administration and instantly add impact transfers who fit your style of play. Great coaches shouldn't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
You're correct Knower of Ball, see Dean winning with KO guys.
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I don't think future recruiting will change much. Maybe it will be a little easier for Shaka to land his top targets, but I don't think those targets will change much.
Recruiting rankings are fun but it's a flawed process. Leon Bond was #68 in the 247 composite. He's redshirting at Virginia. Meanwhile, Chase Ross was #177 and he's playing 16.9 mpg as a frosh. It's mostly guesswork based on small sample sizes.
Trust the coaches to identify talent and recruit the right fits for the system and culture.
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I don't think future recruiting will change much. Maybe it will be a little easier for Shaka to land his top targets, but I don't think those targets will change much.
Recruiting rankings are fun but it's a flawed process. Leon Bond was #68 in the 247 composite. He's redshirting at Virginia. Meanwhile, Chase Ross was #177 and he's playing 16.9 mpg as a frosh. It's mostly guesswork based on small sample sizes.
Trust the coaches to identify talent and recruit the right fits for the system and culture.
I think impact/versatile transfers will want to ball at MU. Guys like free flowing hoops and high octane offenses.
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I think impact/versatile transfers will want to ball at MU. Guys like free flowing hoops and high octane offenses.
But there aren't any openings.
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But there aren't any openings.
+2
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Iirc, Chicos was the original 5 years to judge guy and his argument wasn't about proven HCs vs promoted assistants or low major guys. It was about giving a new coach, regardless of background, an opportunity to coach a recruiting class from HS seniors to college seniors. His logic was that if you judge any sooner than that, you may be unfairly blaming or crediting the new coach for recruiting/development done by their predecessor. Hopkins at UW comes to mind. He won with Romars recruits and once we they were gone he crashed hard.
The logic was sound at the time but it's outdated now. Instant transfers means you can easily run off dead weight from the previous administration and instantly add impact transfers who fit your style of play. Great coaches shouldn't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
One of Keefe's faves, iirc
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One of Keefe's faves, iirc
Wonder how that guy's doing.
Toughest guy around
But runs to HR for Scoop
Never to be seen
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Wonder how that guy's doing.
Toughest guy around
But runs to HR for Scoop
Never to be seen
Bravo
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Iirc, Chicos was the original 5 years to judge guy and his argument wasn't about proven HCs vs promoted assistants or low major guys. It was about giving a new coach, regardless of background, an opportunity to coach a recruiting class from HS seniors to college seniors. His logic was that if you judge any sooner than that, you may be unfairly blaming or crediting the new coach for recruiting/development done by their predecessor. Hopkins at UW comes to mind. He won with Romars recruits and once we they were gone he crashed hard.
The logic was sound at the time but it's outdated now. Instant transfers means you can easily run off dead weight from the previous administration and instantly add impact transfers who fit your style of play. Great coaches shouldn't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
In other words, we can judge Miller, Holloway, Matta, and Neptune at the end of this year--their first season in a new program. If they don't contend (which is true for Holoway, Matta, and Neptune), it's because they failed at running off dead weight and instantly adding impact transfers? Are you saying we can judge these guys as failures after one year?
After all, you say that great coaches don't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
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But there aren't any openings.
I'm basically talking down the road.
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In other words, we can judge Miller, Holloway, Matta, and Neptune at the end of this year--their first season in a new program. If they don't contend (which is true for Holoway, Matta, and Neptune), it's because they failed at running off dead weight and instantly adding impact transfers? Are you saying we can judge these guys as failures after one year?
After all, you say that great coaches don't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
I think there's a big gap between failures and great coaches no? I also said that they need a season. Meaning they need a full year to get a contender off the ground. Contender is also vague language, I'm not implying a national championship contender, but rather an NCAAT at large team.
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I think there's a big gap between failures and great coaches no?
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
There are plenty of coaches who did well their first few years, then flamed out (e.g. Kevin Ollie, Matt Doherty, the aforementioned Mike Hopkins).
There are plenty of coaches who struggled their first few years and later went on to have hall-of-fame careers (Coach K, Jay Wright)
Pointing out that there's a big gap between the two groups isn't really saying much.
My point is that even in the post-transfer era, you can't know into which group a coach falls only two or three years into his career, or two or three years after being promoted from a low major to a P6 (hence the numerous examples in each camp).
By your logic, you can tell us after this year whether Kyle Neptune is the next Steve Lappas or the next Jay Wright.
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Iirc, Chicos was the original 5 years to judge guy and his argument wasn't about proven HCs vs promoted assistants or low major guys. It was about giving a new coach, regardless of background, an opportunity to coach a recruiting class from HS seniors to college seniors. His logic was that if you judge any sooner than that, you may be unfairly blaming or crediting the new coach for recruiting/development done by their predecessor. Hopkins at UW comes to mind. He won with Romars recruits and once we they were gone he crashed hard.
The logic was sound at the time but it's outdated now. Instant transfers means you can easily run off dead weight from the previous administration and instantly add impact transfers who fit your style of play. Great coaches shouldn't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
The 5 (or more) years to judge guys used Coack K and Jay Wright to “prove” their point. But they were exceptions and for every K or Jay there were scores of coaches who showed they couldn’t get it done early and 5 year (or longer) leashes only delayed the inevitable and set back their programs.
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Thank you, Captain Obvious.
There are plenty of coaches who did well their first few years, then flamed out (e.g. Kevin Ollie, Matt Doherty, the aforementioned Mike Hopkins).
There are plenty of coaches who struggled their first few years and later went on to have hall-of-fame careers (Coach K, Jay Wright)
Pointing out that there's a big gap between the two groups isn't really saying much.
Look you are the one who said this:
Are you saying we can judge these guys as failures after one year?
After all, you say that great coaches don't need more than a season to get a contender off the ground.
You claimed that because I said great coaches don't need more than season to get a contender of the ground that it somehow meant we could judge coaches as failures after year 1. You connected those two, I didn't.
My point is that even in the post-transfer era, you can't know into which group a coach falls only two or three years into his career, or two or three years after being promoted from a low major to a P6 (hence the numerous examples in each camp).
By your logic, you can tell us after this year whether Kyle Neptune is the next Steve Lappas or the next Jay Wright.
I never said anything about knowing. Those are you words. What I did say was that you can start to more accurately judge than you could before instant transfers.
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Look you are the one who said this:
You claimed that because I said great coaches don't need more than season to get a contender of the ground that it somehow meant we could judge coaches as failures after year 1. You connected those two, I didn't.
Just so I'm clear, you first said that in the current environment, a coach can turn a team into a contender in one season.
Now you're saying that if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's a failure.
That seems to be consistent with the point of view that one year isn't enough time--it's too soon to tell.
I never said anything about knowing. Those are you words. What I did say was that you can start to more accurately judge than you could before instant transfers.
That's an interesting hypothesis, but a) it's only the 2nd season of insta transfers and b) you don't have any examples where it's been easier to determine long-term success.
First, you're only assuming the positive end--yes, it's easier to take in transfers. You ignored the downside--it's easier to lose players to transfer.
Second, you implied that this is a particular benefit of new coaches that helps us gauge their success quickly. Yet every current coach has the same ability to rebuild rosters every year.
Third, in those cases where a new coach inherits a high-quality team of underclassmen, and then succeeds with them, you still haven't seen him turn his recruits into successful players. Think of your example of Mike Hopkins. Or if you prefer, Mike Deane winning with Kevin O'Neill recruits.
Bottom line, maybe ist's easier, maybe its not, but you haven't actually made the case.
Perhaps the way to settle is for you to run down the list of 2021 and 2022 coaching hires (excluding guys like Shaka and Sean Miller who already had their five years) and make your set of predictions on who turns out to be a good hire, and who turns out otherwise.
We can revisit in a few years and see if your predictions are correct.
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Just so I'm clear, you first said that in the current environment, a coach can turn a team into a contender in one season.
Now you're saying that if he doesn't, it doesn't mean he's a failure.
That seems to be consistent with the point of view that one year isn't enough time--it's too soon to tell.
I actually said a great coach shouldn't need more than a year to build a contender (NCAAT team). I said nothing about failures or any coach's long term prospects. You assumed that this meant that I thought that a coach who doesn't do this is a failure. That's not the case at all.
That's an interesting hypothesis, but a) it's only the 2nd season of insta transfers and b) you don't have any examples where it's been easier to determine long-term success.
Who said anything about long-term success?
The breakdown here is you are trying to make this an argument about if coaches can improve over time. Of course they can. No one has said otherwise. Rick Majerus was a failure at Marquette but developed into a great coach. Like any other job, most college basketball coaches improve over the course of their career.
What I actually said was that the tools available to coaches have changed. In the past, coaches had to rely on their predecessor's recruits or make a lot of cuts and rely on an extremely young roster. The transfer portal was not nearly as large or as deep as it is now and the vast majority of transfers needed to sit a year. Those who didn't only had one year of eligibility (in rare cases two). Building a balanced and experienced roster of players recruited by the current coach took a minimum of 2 years and more realistically it took 4-5 years. Now, a new coach can more easily convince any of the predecessor's leftovers to transfer if they don't fit what the coach wants and can build an entire balanced roster of players through the portal before their first season even starts (though realistically I think it takes a full year of recruiting).
And yes we can more easily judge a coach's performance once their roster is made up entirely of players they recruited. That doesn't mean they won't improve as a coach over time, it just means we know the current success on the court is more of their doing than of their predecessor's doing. As I understood it, that's what the original "5 years to judge" meme meant. Though you'd have to ask Chicos
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Thread turning into another Scoop pos thread.
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Thread turning into another Scoop pos thread.
Par for the course, I mean.....
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I don't think future recruiting will change much. Maybe it will be a little easier for Shaka to land his top targets, but I don't think those targets will change much.
Recruiting rankings are fun but it's a flawed process. Leon Bond was #68 in the 247 composite. He's redshirting at Virginia. Meanwhile, Chase Ross was #177 and he's playing 16.9 mpg as a frosh. It's mostly guesswork based on small sample sizes.
Trust the coaches to identify talent and recruit the right fits for the system and culture.
*clears throat loudly* Back on the topic here, I think a huge part of recruiting will take a couple years to re-normalize post-pandemic. There was a whole lot of development in these kids' prime HS years that could not be observed in the same way. It's all still projection, but I'd expect quality of rankings to be (as a composite) a bit more accurate.
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*clears throat loudly* Back on the topic here, I think a huge part of recruiting will take a couple years to re-normalize post-pandemic. There was a whole lot of development in these kids' prime HS years that could not be observed in the same way. It's all still projection, but I'd expect quality of rankings to be (as a composite) a bit more accurate.
The pandemic’s impact on recruiting and the overall competitive landscape is a massively underreported topic. Giving the whole country an extra year of eligibility changed things in myriad ways that have largely gone unduscussed. Pair it with free transfers and it is basically a different sport.
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The pandemic’s impact on recruiting and the overall competitive landscape is a massively underreported topic. Giving the whole country an extra year of eligibility changed things in myriad ways that have largely gone unduscussed. Pair it with free transfers and it is basically a different sport.
The sport isn't different, just how you construct rosters. And the bonus year is just for players that played in the 2020-21 season. Once the Tyler/O-Max/Oso class of players moves on, no more COVID years.
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The pandemic’s impact on recruiting and the overall competitive landscape is a massively underreported topic. Giving the whole country an extra year of eligibility changed things in myriad ways that have largely gone unduscussed. Pair it with free transfers and it is basically a different sport.
Personally, I think a lot of what is happening in college sports right now is an anomaly. This is probably the best opportunity for schools that don’t regularly compete for the big prize to cash in (TCU is a perfect example).
It’s a perfect storm with instant transfer rule, NIL and extra covid years. A lot of teams have veteran depth that won’t necessarily repeat in a few years as the covid players phase out.
NIL can and will help all schools, including Marquette, but my hunch is the usual suspects will be regularly competeting for titles, the “blue bloods” of college sports.
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Personally, I think a lot of what is happening in college sports right now is an anomaly. This is probably the best opportunity for schools that don’t regularly compete for the big prize to cash in (TCU is a perfect example).
It’s a perfect storm with instant transfer rule, NIL and extra covid years. A lot of teams have veteran depth that won’t necessarily repeat in a few years as the covid players phase out.
NIL can and will help all schools, including Marquette, but my hunch is the usual suspects will be regularly competeting for titles, the “blue bloods” of college sports.
You hit on several good points. Obviously the elimination of the one year sit-out rule along with a lost year of eligibility is the biggest game changer by far. While recruiting is still crucial, system coaches who develop players/teams are the big winners in this new world of college bball. The Wojo "method" of loading up on talent to overcome coaching/development/game planning weaknesses is the big loser.
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If getting 7 years of Wojo was the best for Marquette, then we deserve at least 3 BEAST championships and a couple final four runs under Shaka.
Shaka going to Texas and MU getting Wojo was the best thing that could have possibly happened. Now Shaka knows what life is like at the "big job" and appreciates MU because of it. He seems to know he has a good thing at MU and I would be shocked if he left. It's like the stars lined up perfectly for both MU and Shaka and a long-term partnership has been born.
As far as this year's team is concerned, I enjoy watching them as much as anyone. I hope the players are having as much fun as we are watching them. The Big East season is a grind, and it will be interesting to see how they hold up psychologically in the second half. Barring injury, I think they will be fine physically, but the mental and emotional strain must be hard for young players.