MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 08:50:08 AM

Title: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 08:50:08 AM
Several of us thought this team would be at least as good as last season's team, thought we'd make the NCAA tournament.

Those of us who felt that way were counting on guys like Oso, O-Max, Kolek, Kam and Joplin showing marked improvement in their second seasons in Shaka's system and on Sean being an impact freshman. We were counting on that to make up for the departure of an All-Big East stud, the loss of a solid guy in Morsell, and, to a lesser degree, the losses of Elliott and Kuath.

So far, all of that has happened, and we are a win over Madison away from being back in the top 25.

I don't think any of us expected a smooth, bump-free ride. The 17-point half against Miss St, the late collapse against a top-5 Purdue team and the lousy (albeit victorious) effort vs Chicago State, have been the bumps so far. But there also have been many really positive signs. And obviously, last night was way above and beyond "really positive."

I thought a top-5 BEast finish was realistic, but I have to admit that I'm upgrading my expectations a little.

Even if I say that it's ridiculous to expect last night's performance to be replicated, we've gotten several glimpses already this young season of what this team's ceiling can look like, and it's pretty damn high.

Creighton and UConn look like the class of the BEast, but everything that's taken place this season suggests to me that a top-3 finish and 4-6 NCAAT seed definitely could happen. And if we beat Creighton in our BEast opener ... look the eff out!

It's fun to be excited about Marquette basketball, baby. Coincidentally, earlier this week, a few friends and I bought tickets for the Feb. 25 DePaul game at FF and the Feb. 28 game at Butler. Psyched to see an MU team that could be just about ready to clinch an NCAAT bid right around then!!

We Are (clap clap) Marquette (clap clap)!
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on November 30, 2022, 08:53:38 AM
Probably best to temper expectations.

Young team that will likely still have a lot of questionable losses.

We are a decent team with a lot of work to do. One thing is clear though...this team is bought in to Shaka and they work as hard as any Marquette team has worked.  That could go a long way when they start to develop.

I would say it is still realistic to finish anywhere from 3-9 in the Big East because you just never know what a season has in store.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2022, 08:55:57 AM
Better than a lot of people thought pre-season.  IMO this is a tournament team that will be nowhere near 8th or 9th in the Big East as some had projected. 

Hopefully this year they will be better able to handle the grind-it-out nature of the Big East in January and February. I think our depth helps us in this regard, but enough to make up for our lack of experience? We will see...and that's the fun of the journey.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 09:02:06 AM
Better than a lot of people thought pre-season.  IMO this is a tournament team that will be nowhere near 8th or 9th in the Big East as some had projected. 

Hopefully this year they will be better able to handle the grind-it-out nature of the Big East in January and February. I think our depth helps us in this regard, but enough to make up for our lack of experience? We will see...and that's the fun of the journey.

Excellent points, Sultan. How good Marquette is now matters ... but how good we are in February and March matters more.

Probably best to temper expectations.

I like having great expectations, especially if I honestly believe those expectations are realistic.

But you obviously are free to temper your expectations, Mr. Georgia Tech by 3.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 30, 2022, 09:07:25 AM
Assuming Baylor does not turn out to be total frauds, this should be the perfect springboard opportunity for a tourney bid. 

Wisconsin and Notre Dame: If we can go 2 for 2 there we might really have something.

Then with a bit of focus (and some luck), in a down Big East, there's no reason we can't be competing for the conference title and a top 5 tourney seed.

Tempering expectations is the exact opposite of what we should be doing right now.  We did that for the last decade.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: PointWarrior on November 30, 2022, 09:08:54 AM
COLE lingers a long time.


Probably best to temper expectations.

Young team that will likely still have a lot of questionable losses.

We are a decent team with a lot of work to do. One thing is clear though...this team is bought in to Shaka and they work as hard as any Marquette team has worked.  That could go a long way when they start to develop.

I would say it is still realistic to finish anywhere from 3-9 in the Big East because you just never know what a season has in store.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: rgoode57 on November 30, 2022, 09:10:22 AM
Yes, last night was fantastic, but it does not mean that we are contenders for the Final Four now - it just means the team has potential. Hopefully, last night helps the players see their potential and motivates them to keep working hard. But, it is a long season that will have lots of twists and turns.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 09:14:37 AM
Yes, last night was fantastic, but it does not mean that we are contenders for the Final Four now - it just means the team has potential. Hopefully, last night helps the players see their potential and motivates them to keep working hard. But, it is a long season that will have lots of twists and turns.

The good thing is that nobody here believes we are contenders for the Final Four (at least not yet), and that the optimists here believes our team has great potential.

One thing I have absolutely no doubt about is whether or not this team will work hard.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MuggsyB on November 30, 2022, 09:15:07 AM
Several of us thought this team would be at least as good as last season's team, thought we'd make the NCAA tournament.

Those of us who felt that way were counting on guys like Oso, O-Max, Kolek, Kam and Joplin showing marked improvement in their second seasons in Shaka's system and on Sean being an impact freshman. We were counting on that to make up for the departure of an All-Big East stud, the loss of a solid guy in Morsell, and, to a lesser degree, the losses of Elliott and Kuath.

So far, all of that has happened, and we are a win over Madison away from being back in the top 25.

I don't think any of us expected a smooth, bump-free ride. The 17-point half against Miss St, the late collapse against a top-5 Purdue team and the lousy (albeit victorious) effort vs Chicago State, have been the bumps so far. But there also have been many really positive signs. And obviously, last night was way above and beyond "really positive."

I thought a top-5 BEast finish was realistic, but I have to admit that I'm upgrading my expectations a little.

Even if I say that it's ridiculous to expect last night's performance to be replicated, we've gotten several glimpses already this young season of what this team's ceiling can look like, and it's pretty damn high.

Creighton and UConn look like the class of the BEast, but everything that's taken place this season suggests to me that a top-3 finish and 4-6 NCAAT seed definitely could happen. And if we beat Creighton in our BEast opener ... look the eff out!

It's fun to be excited about Marquette basketball, baby. Coincidentally, earlier this week, a few friends and I bought tickets for the Feb. 25 DePaul game at FF and the Feb. 28 game at Butler. Psyched to see an MU team that could be just about ready to clinch an NCAAT bid right around then!!

We Are (clap clap) Marquette (clap clap)!

It's still too early to know.  As Tower said, it was just one game.  I'm confident in stating we're definitely better than 9th in the BEast.  Before the game I wrote that I hope O-Max and Joplin step-it up.  I also 100% saw the barrage coming before it happened, our guys had a different look and disposition last night.  Now, consistency is still a question mark.  I will say that if TyKo and O-Max are playing near their top level we're gonna be a very tough out.  This team is deep and Shaka is gaining more confidence in our entire roster.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MDMU04 on November 30, 2022, 09:15:20 AM
This team's system runs on the defense pressuring the ball handler, having length in the passing lanes, denying post entry passes, and closing out on perimeter shots.  The defense keys the offense (deflections, turnovers, long rebounds) with transition opportunities that create open looks at the basket.

They do this with a roster of guys that are long and quick, and play with intense effort and energy.  Last night we had both.  Baylor looked like they expected a cakewalk. Our guys were up for the game, punched them in the mouth and Baylor wanted no part of it.  They were ready to get back on that bus halfway through the first half.

Nothing was easy for Baylor last night.  It seemed like every entry pass into the paint was very well defended, and most of their shots from distance were heavily contested.  If that type of defensive energy comes to the arena every night, MU will win a lot more games than they lose.

But progress is not linear.  It's easy to get up for the #6 team in a national prime time game your arena.  I anticipate there will be a few games on the schedule where we are left scratching our heads from a lack of effort on the defensive end and a resulting bogged down offense.  It's on Shaka to get his guys ready to play every night.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: tower912 on November 30, 2022, 09:15:31 AM
We are never as good as our best win or as bad as our worst loss.   Or some such drivel.    I addressed this with Goose elsewhere.   There are questions about this team (as with most teams in most sports) that will only be answered with time.
What adjustments will MU make when...
teams pound the ball inside in order to get Oso in foul trouble?
other teams crash the o-boards?
 they stay home when TK starts driving, taking away passing lanes?
start posting up Sean?
good shots don't fall?

Last night, we saw how good MU can be.  Not too long ago, MU scored 17 points in a half.   It is a long season.   Enjoy the ride.

Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2022, 09:20:29 AM
Last night was hopefully a glimpse into the future of the program. There is going to be a long time before we see a performance like that again and I am going to enjoy it. I am sticking with my early season prediction of top 4 in BE, tourney bid locked up in February and one win in NCAA. This is program that is still building a foundation, but it is doing with a seasoned HC, a group of athletic basketball players and a common goal.

OMax is the key to how good the team is going to be and I am sticking with my belief that OMax proves to be the difference maker this season. There are a lot of options for Shaka and I love how he subs freely and never seems concerned on who he puts out there. Plus, defense travels!!!

Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Elonsmusk on November 30, 2022, 09:21:24 AM
F*ck 'em

That 9th place coaches poll finish in The Big East is going to be absolute motivational fuel for Shaka and this team.  I think we will finish no lower than 4th and a good chance to finish 3rd - that's a threeway race between St. Johns, Xavier and us IMO.

Think it is entirely possible that we win the WI, ND and Creighton games and springboard into conference play with great confidence - and that chip on our shoulder motivation.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MuggsyB on November 30, 2022, 09:23:23 AM
I know I'm nitpicking here but I'd like to see Stevie feel more comfortable offensively. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2022, 09:27:37 AM
I know I'm nitpicking here but I'd like to see Stevie feel more comfortable offensively. 

Yeah, he has a weird shot. But he is SO good defensively!
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Tha Hound on November 30, 2022, 09:29:36 AM
Probably best to temper expectations.

Young team that will likely still have a lot of questionable losses.

We are a decent team with a lot of work to do. One thing is clear though...this team is bought in to Shaka and they work as hard as any Marquette team has worked.  That could go a long way when they start to develop.

I would say it is still realistic to finish anywhere from 3-9 in the Big East because you just never know what a season has in store.

Laughed out loud at this post. The guy who was so sure of his loss predictions now comes with his latest and greatest prediction: Marquette will finish anywhere from the top of the conference, to the middle, to maybe even the bottom! Wow love that insight
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: The Lens on November 30, 2022, 09:35:09 AM
To everyone who wants to point out we scored 17 points in a half...we almost won that game.  We led later.  This team has shown to be competitive playing a lot of different ways.

I think we're solidly 3rd-5th in the BE.  Hope to make some progress in the BET + NCAA.  A win in each would be great. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MUfan12 on November 30, 2022, 09:36:28 AM
Brian Hamilton wrote a great piece about last night. Here's part of it-

https://theathletic.com/3951785/2022/11/30/marquette-baylor-shaka-smart/?redirected=1

Be patient … but impatient.

Don’t look for a time jump to what everyone wants it to look like, internally or externally, no matter how desperately they want it to look like that. But don’t settle for less than the next step, however large or small it is. “It’s understanding they’re not going to be all the way where you want them to go, all the time,” Smart said late Tuesday, gripping a telltale rolled-up box score in a Fiserv Forum hallway, “but we’ve gotta demand it.”

Only a few minutes earlier, of course, Smart left the scene of an asteroid impact, a night that was necessary for what he’s trying to build and also a pretty terrible argument for everyone to chill for a minute while it’s built. Marquette 96, No. 6 Baylor 70 was an actual thing that happened on a basketball court. Not something out of a hallucination. Not a chapter of Golden Eagles fan fic. By 8 p.m. local time on Tuesday, the building was up for grabs. Five minutes after that, the place was what lay beyond. A 17,000-seat sweat lodge. A portal to a metaverse. Dogs and cats living together. The elders will speak of it for generations.

For a good long while Tuesday, the idealized version of Shaka Smart’s Marquette came to life. Something the second-year coach surely sees in his wildest dreams. It had to happen, at some point. Even across the six wins over ranked teams a year ago, it wasn’t this. Instead, this happened on Nov. 29, 2022, all of 40 games into Smart’s time occupying an office at the Al McGuire Center. “We can play,” sophomore guard Kam Jones said. “We belong on the court with anybody.”

And here’s the part no one wants to hear but absolutely has to, the Category 5 wind that Smart knows he may lean into for the foreseeable future: It happened, but it has to happen again. Marquette demonstrated what it can be under its still semi-new head coach but has to show it can be its optimal self over and over and over. There have been plenty of days and nights over the past few years that felt like a revival and went nowhere, and if we’re being overly picky, this perfect version of Marquette existed for 20 minutes on Tuesday. That’s an amuse-bouche.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Elonsmusk on November 30, 2022, 09:48:35 AM
Brian Hamilton wrote a great piece about last night. Here's part of it-

https://theathletic.com/3951785/2022/11/30/marquette-baylor-shaka-smart/?redirected=1

Be patient … but impatient.

Don’t look for a time jump to what everyone wants it to look like, internally or externally, no matter how desperately they want it to look like that. But don’t settle for less than the next step, however large or small it is. “It’s understanding they’re not going to be all the way where you want them to go, all the time,” Smart said late Tuesday, gripping a telltale rolled-up box score in a Fiserv Forum hallway, “but we’ve gotta demand it.”

Only a few minutes earlier, of course, Smart left the scene of an asteroid impact, a night that was necessary for what he’s trying to build and also a pretty terrible argument for everyone to chill for a minute while it’s built. Marquette 96, No. 6 Baylor 70 was an actual thing that happened on a basketball court. Not something out of a hallucination. Not a chapter of Golden Eagles fan fic. By 8 p.m. local time on Tuesday, the building was up for grabs. Five minutes after that, the place was what lay beyond. A 17,000-seat sweat lodge. A portal to a metaverse. Dogs and cats living together. The elders will speak of it for generations.

For a good long while Tuesday, the idealized version of Shaka Smart’s Marquette came to life. Something the second-year coach surely sees in his wildest dreams. It had to happen, at some point. Even across the six wins over ranked teams a year ago, it wasn’t this. Instead, this happened on Nov. 29, 2022, all of 40 games into Smart’s time occupying an office at the Al McGuire Center. “We can play,” sophomore guard Kam Jones said. “We belong on the court with anybody.”

And here’s the part no one wants to hear but absolutely has to, the Category 5 wind that Smart knows he may lean into for the foreseeable future: It happened, but it has to happen again. Marquette demonstrated what it can be under its still semi-new head coach but has to show it can be its optimal self over and over and over. There have been plenty of days and nights over the past few years that felt like a revival and went nowhere, and if we’re being overly picky, this perfect version of Marquette existed for 20 minutes on Tuesday. That’s an amuse-bouche.


Great article...especially loved the bolded.  The Athletic is well worth its subscription cost. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: brewcity77 on November 30, 2022, 09:48:48 AM
In the Anonymous Eagle poll, I had us 3rd in the Big East. I'd still have us there, but the order of the teams around us has changed. UConn at the top, line, Creighton, line, Marquette narrowly ahead of Xavier. Those are the four current tourney contenders.

After that, a mix of Providence, St John's, Butler, and Seton Hall hoping to get into that bubble conversation. The bottom is Nova, DePaul, and Georgetown. Maybe a healthy Nova gets into that next category up, but at 2-5 with losses to Portland and Temple, they seem more likely to fall down this list than rise up it.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: tower912 on November 30, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
To everyone who wants to point out we scored 17 points in a half...we almost won that game.  We led later.  This team has shown to be competitive playing a lot of different ways.

I think we're solidly 3rd-5th in the BE.  Hope to make some progress in the BET + NCAA.  A win in each would be great.

Yes.   MU's defense kept them in it.   MU came back and took a lead and then faded late.   I didn't get worked up about the loss like so many did.   When MU has another clunker, I will remind everyone about the Baylor game.   
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 30, 2022, 09:52:47 AM
In the Anonymous Eagle poll, I had us 3rd in the Big East. I'd still have us there, but the order of the teams around us has changed. UConn at the top, line, Creighton, line, Marquette narrowly ahead of Xavier. Those are the four current tourney contenders.

After that, a mix of Providence, St John's, Butler, and Seton Hall hoping to get into that bubble conversation. The bottom is Nova, DePaul, and Georgetown. Maybe a healthy Nova gets into that next category up, but at 2-5 with losses to Portland and Temple, they seem more likely to fall down this list than rise up it.
Nova has had a bad non-con but there is no shot they finish bottom 3 with DePaul and Georgetown. Too much pride.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 30, 2022, 09:55:55 AM
Nova has had a bad non-con but there is no shot they finish bottom 3 with DePaul and Georgetown. Too much pride.

Things people said about DePaul in the 90s and Georgetown a few years ago.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 09:56:24 AM
To everyone who wants to point out we scored 17 points in a half...we almost won that game.  We led later.  This team has shown to be competitive playing a lot of different ways.

I think we're solidly 3rd-5th in the BE.  Hope to make some progress in the BET + NCAA.  A win in each would be great.

It's fair to point out that we scored 17 points in a half ... AND that we had a chance to win that game. As you just did (and others have).

In looking for season highlights and lowlights so far, scoring 17 points in a half WAS a lowlight. I'm as high on this team as anybody is, but it's OK to point out that everything hasn't been perfect, nor will everything be perfect in every game going forward.

And speaking of which ...

I know I'm nitpicking here but I'd like to see Stevie feel more comfortable offensively. 

Baylor gave him the Derrick Wilson treatment last night. Left him wide, wide, wide open and dared him to shoot. He had to take those shots, but the results won't make him any more comfortable. He seemed tentative on his drives, too, a little loose with the basketball.

If others are hitting, his defense makes him a net positive. Just so solid. But he's a candidate to lose minutes to Sean (as he did last night) if his shot doesn't fall.

MUfan12: Thanks for posting the Hamilton article. Great read, and obviously accurate.

Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on November 30, 2022, 10:00:28 AM
Laughed out loud at this post. The guy who was so sure of his loss predictions now comes with his latest and greatest prediction: Marquette will finish anywhere from the top of the conference, to the middle, to maybe even the bottom! Wow love that insight

Because as of right now any of that is possible.  Last night doesn't just mean we are going to finish as a good team.  We have fizzled out 10 seasons in a row.  Last night showed how good we can be but it doesn't show how good we are.

If we start to see more results like last night it will be easy to move their range of conference finishes from 3-9 to 3-6 range, but we need more evidence.

All I know is this team is fun to watch work because they all try extremely hard even though some of them are limited offensively at this point in their careers.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: CountryRoads on November 30, 2022, 10:02:10 AM
I was bullish on the team from the beginning, but I think they’ll be a solid NCAA team and finish in the Top 4 of the BE. Think we finally get that NCAA win this year.

Shaka really bet big on player retention and I think it’s paid huge dividends already. Instead of running off a few guys at the end of the bench and trying to get a better team on paper, he stuck with this group and I think that’s why they are ahead of where most thought they’d be at this point.

MU has a good chance to get on a bit of a roll here and keep the momentum going. Very excited for Saturday and not because they are playing the Badgers, but because I think it’s clear this program is starting to turn the corner.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: rgoode57 on November 30, 2022, 10:20:23 AM
This team has answered a couple of important questions so far:

1. Oso certainly is an improved player from last year - hugely improved.
2. Kam Jones looks like an improved player who is learning (perhaps reluctantly) to eliminate some of the quick 3-pointers from the parking lot. Starting to be more selective and taking ball to basket more.
3. The freshmen can, in fact, contribute significantly - all three of them.
4. If Wrightsil can get healthy and make a contribution, great. But, it may not happen or comes far enough into the season that it is hard for Shaka to work him in.
5. David Joplin can, on a lot of nights, give us outside shooting if they get him the ball in good rhythm, but he cannot drive the ball effectively yet.
6. The team has to get turnovers to make up for poor rebounding.

Two big questions are not yet answered:

1. Tyler Kolek's shooting. It looks like it is better, but he has to keep taking the shot and looking to score. Last night he passed up two wide open five footers to make a kick out pass. One of those passes was a turnover and the other did result in a made 3-pointer.
2. Omax's overall development. Great game last night, but can he consistently be a high-level performer?
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on November 30, 2022, 11:01:25 AM
I feel pretty confident about what we'll get on a nightly basis from Tyler and Oso.  A little less so with Kam but I think we're already seeing some improvement in shot selection and him taking the ball to the basketball so hopefully that trend continues. 

On the offensive end, OMax and Joplin are the x-factors, IMO.  If they can develop consistency scoring the ball that will take the team to another level as I believe our defense should be consistent.

Sean, Chase and Ben are already contributing and should only get better, which is a great sign.  At this point, we just have to think anything we get from Wrightsil is gravy. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: nyg on November 30, 2022, 11:18:54 AM
The non conference schedule is winding down.

Purdue: played a team that had just a dominate presence in Edey and a tough environment on the road.  MU was not good at shooting the threes and was a respectable loss

Miss St: a winnable game, but again the threes were not falling.  MSU played great defensively and the difference was on the rebounding side.  Wish they could have won this game, but can't win them all.

Baylor: a once in every 10 year performance.  To press Baylor into 16 turnovers in one half resulting in 24 points, and to make 16 out of 17 straight shots is crazy.  An exceptional win.

I want to see how MU reacts to the big Baylor win against Wisconsin.  Can they speed up the game like they did against Baylor, whose frontline was heavily breathing up and down the court and not getting back on defense.  Wisconsin has some tall players, but do they have the stamina and bench players to keep up. 
Notre Dame will be an away game and would like to see the same gameplan.

That being said, maybe revisit this topic at the end of the non conference schedule after the ND game.  See if Shaka starts cutting back his rotation(he did last year) or keeps the minutes as is, and observe how MU's three point shooting goes in next three games.  That will be a barometer of how good they can be. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 30, 2022, 11:37:49 AM
This game was another data point and showed us that the team's ceiling is much higher than previously shown. This is still the same team that struggled against Chicago State (which represents the team's current floor). I don't think teams really get that much better during the season, I think the good ones get more consistent and start to play closer to their ceiling more often than not. The talent is there, the consistency is what I will be looking for the rest of the season. I think Shaka is up to the task.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MUfan12 on November 30, 2022, 11:38:50 AM
They're not gonna have the driving lanes available on Saturday that Baylor gave up. Curious to see how they adjust, particularly OMax.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on November 30, 2022, 11:51:20 AM
Gary Parrish has moved Marquette into his Top 25 and 1 at this moment in time.  Long way to go go actually finish that way, but it is a start!

They are at 22 sandwiched between Mississippi State (21) and Baylor (23).  Pretty good logic there.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 12:05:50 PM
One of the bazillion things I really liked about last night's game is that it's not as if we went wild from beyond the arc to build that huge lead. We were only 6-for-16 (37.5%), and a couple of the misses were ugly. We built the lead through defense, turning D to O, slashing to the hoop and hard work.

If we had built the lead by going something like 13-for-16 from the arc, it would be easy to say, "That'll never happen again." But a lot of what we did in the first half is repeatable and something we control. Now, other teams might not be as loose with the ball, but that's OK.

In the second half, as Baylor tried to get back into the game, we did go 6-for-9 from 3 and that really helped keep Baylor at bay.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: connie on November 30, 2022, 12:06:57 PM
Last night answered the question "How good could they be?" in an emphatic way.  It was great to see.  I think it fair to raise expectations a notch but I don't think it is fair to expect anything close to a similar performance.  This really was a glorious statistical outlier, so quantifying how much higher to shoot is hard.  Instead of finishing 7th-5th in the BE I can see 6-4 and challenging for a bid.  Hope I am just beaten down by years of Wojo underachievement.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: mugrad_89 on November 30, 2022, 12:20:25 PM
One of the bazillion things I really liked about last night's game is that it's not as if we went wild from beyond the arc to build that huge lead. We were only 6-for-16 (37.5%), and a couple of the misses were ugly. We built the lead through defense, turning D to O, slashing to the hoop and hard

If we had built the lead by going something like 13-for-16 from the arc, it would be easy to say, "That'll never happen again." But a lot of what we did in the first half is repeatable and something we control. Now, other teams might not be as loose with the ball, but that's OK.

In the second half, as Baylor tried to get back into the game, we did go 6-for-9 from 3 and that really helped keep Baylor at bay.

The important piece I take from this is that they only attempted 16 3’s the entire game.  That shows that they were much more aggressive in taking the ball to the hoop.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: brewcity77 on November 30, 2022, 12:29:47 PM
Nova has had a bad non-con but there is no shot they finish bottom 3 with DePaul and Georgetown. Too much pride.

That and $20 will get them a beer at Fiserv.

If Nova starts to show they can beat teams that aren't in the bottom half of college basketball, maybe they can get into that middle tier. But thus far, they're closer to Georgetown and DePaul than they are to any actual NCAA contenders.

https://twitter.com/brewcity1977/status/1598020556225671168?s=46&t=TO_NwCl4trS5BEGQ4ep2zw
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: StillAWarrior on November 30, 2022, 12:52:05 PM
Young team that will likely still have a lot of questionable losses.

Please feel free to define the highlighted terms. I'm sure they'll lose games that I think they "should" win. If that's what you're saying, I agree. They'll also win games I think they "should" lose (see, e.g., Baylor). But whether you and I really agree will depend entirely on how you're defining "a lot" and "questionable losses".

We have fizzled out 10 seasons in a row.

Yeah...as optimistic as I'm feeling (in general and specifically on the heels of a fantastic win), it's going to be hard for me to really trust until I see an MU team finish the season strong. What's that old saying? "Fool me six times..."
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Daniel on November 30, 2022, 12:56:18 PM
I think we take one game at a time - we will have great ones and some hic-cups, but the potential has been shown.   This team CAN play well and when they do they will be competitive with most teams.

Saturday,  not only because it is Wisconsin but also after a huge in, will be real challenge.   Glad it is a back to back home game scenario.   We certainly can beat Wisconsin.   And I think we do.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: mugrad_89 on November 30, 2022, 01:02:46 PM
Last nite provided a blueprint on what the team needs to do to be successful - full court pressure, attack the paint, ball movement, not settle for 25 ft 3-point shots 10 seconds into the shot clock and team rebounding.  Will this happen every nite?  Probably not, but the team has shown that its ceiling is higher than a lot of us thought coming into the season.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on November 30, 2022, 01:08:35 PM
Please feel free to define the highlighted terms. I'm sure they'll lose games that I think they "should" win. If that's what you're saying, I agree. They'll also win games I think they "should" lose (see, e.g., Baylor). But whether you and I really agree will depend entirely on how you're defining "a lot" and "questionable losses".

Yeah...as optimistic as I'm feeling (in general and specifically on the heels of a fantastic win), it's going to be hard for me to really trust until I see an MU team finish the season strong. What's that old saying? "Fool me six times..."

Questionable meaning like...we were winning that game and just had control, how the heck did we lose?

I have definitely gained confidence in their ability.  No question about it.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Herman Cain on November 30, 2022, 01:12:49 PM
I have had a bullish outlook since prior to the start of the season. Felt there would be a lot of individual player improvement and good chemistry. Seems like we are seeing good evidence that the individual improvement is there


Have been delighted with the way Shaka prepares the team every game

Even in the losses we were fighting hard

Last night the defense came together at the same time we were making 3s . The result was awesome

Going into the season, I believe we could compete well in conference play. Based on what I see from the rest of the league I continue to believe that .

The Big East gauntlet is a tough one . There may be some bad streaks along the way . However , I believe we will be above .500 in conference play and that should get us in the tournament .
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on November 30, 2022, 01:13:19 PM
I agree with what some are saying here. Young team, never get too high and never too low.  Other teams we play will make their own adjustments based on how we are playing.   
I agree that it's hard not to get fired up after last night though.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2022, 01:25:52 PM
Nova has had a bad non-con but there is no shot they finish bottom 3 with DePaul and Georgetown. Too much pride.

In 2011-12, with Jay Wright as coach, with 7 straight NCAAT bids under their belt, and just a couple years removed from a Final Four appearance, Nova finished 13th in the 15-team Big East, with a 5-13 record.

They had pride then. And they had a great coach with a great system. They just didn't have enough talent. And sometimes, when that snowball goes downhill, there's simply no way to stop it.

Will this Nova season be like that one? We'll see!

Yeah...as optimistic as I'm feeling (in general and specifically on the heels of a fantastic win), it's going to be hard for me to really trust until I see an MU team finish the season strong. What's that old saying? "Fool me six times..."

I totally get this. It's human nature. But even comparing this season to last is a stretch. And this team obviously has nothing to do with Buzz's last team or Wojo's teams. The only time anyone on this team will even think about the way the 2018-19 team finished is if they're asked about it by the media.

But sure, as fans we don't want to get our hearts broken again. Dope that I am, though, I'm thinking big!

I think we take one game at a time

Well, it's important for Shaka and the players to do this, and I have every confidence that they will. But it doesn't really matter if fans take it one at a time, two at a time or 9 at a time.

We're allowed to think about February and March -- and next season if we want to. Doing so won't affect this team's ability to prepare for Saturday's game one iota.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: romey on November 30, 2022, 01:42:02 PM
Having been a die hard fan since 1971 (dad was an alum STH at the Milwaukee Arena) this was the biggest victory I have seen in all those years.  I know NCAA Championship and all the others in between, but in terms of shock value - this was it.  Think about this; after last night's game, will there be another game this year that we will not be able to say "we can win this"?  I think not.  We've suffered through mediocrity for some time now.  And there were many games where, before tipoff, I felt we were going to lose.  in my heart, the optimist in me always hoped/wished for the W, but the common sense side took over and told me otherwise.  But now, after having witnessed this level of basketball from this team.  We can beat anyone.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: StillAWarrior on November 30, 2022, 02:32:07 PM
And this team obviously has nothing to do with Buzz's last team or Wojo's teams.

I agree. And I was feeling this really strongly on February 3 - "this is Shaka's team and has nothing to do with Wojo's teams that collapsed down the stretch the last couple years." And then...well...you know what happened.

Don't get me wrong...I'm extremely optimistic about this team. Unapologetically. But, I admit that I'll be relieved when we make it to the end of the season without a collapse.

Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: JakeBarnes on November 30, 2022, 03:00:39 PM
I agree. And I was feeling this really strongly on February 3 - "this is Shaka's team and has nothing to do with Wojo's teams that collapsed down the stretch the last couple years." And then...well...you know what happened.

Don't get me wrong...I'm extremely optimistic about this team. Unapologetically. But, I admit that I'll be relieved when we make it to the end of the season without a collapse.

Somewhere in this is a marketing ploy by Marquette to do Ted Lasso-esque exorcism thing to rid us of the Wojo-Mojo.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: connie on November 30, 2022, 03:05:46 PM
WOJO-CISM:  A banishment of the ingrained fear that your team will be revealed as far less than the sum of its parts; usually in late February/early March
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: dgies9156 on November 30, 2022, 03:46:29 PM
Sustained excellence is critical. We have had big wins before. Villanova comes to mind, especially when we beat them in Philadelphia.

We haven’t sustained it. We faded at some point along the road. Yesterday was great but it will mean far more if it is the foundation win on our team’s return to glory.

Marquette has had too many false starts that I won’t say we are back. That’s for our coach and our team to say in the coming days and weeks.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 30, 2022, 04:06:47 PM
Sustained excellence is critical. We have had big wins before. Villanova comes to mind, especially when we beat them in Philadelphia.

We haven’t sustained it. We faded at some point along the road. Yesterday was great but it will mean far more if it is the foundation win on our team’s return to glory.

Marquette has had too many false starts that I won’t say we are back. That’s for our coach and our team to say in the coming days and weeks.

MOPE
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 30, 2022, 04:15:55 PM
WOJO-CISM:  A banishment of the ingrained fear that your team will be revealed as far less than the sum of its parts; usually in late February/early March

Listen, I'm just as excited as the next person regarding the win last night. But I'm not ready to anoint this team as even Top 30 caliber right now. As a few have stated already - and as mentioned in The Athletic article (get a subscription if you don't already have one) a FORM of what happened last night needs to be repeatable and happen again, and again in order to get rid of the "wojo-cism" that has so deeply penetrated this university. Even the guys on The Field Of 68 After Dark podcast brought up the fact that Marquette folded down the stretch last year.

Now, Win the remainder of the non-con schedule and i think we might be on to something!
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 30, 2022, 04:17:01 PM
Sustained excellence is critical. We have had big wins before. Villanova comes to mind, especially when we beat them in Philadelphia.

We haven’t sustained it. We faded at some point along the road. Yesterday was great but it will mean far more if it is the foundation win on our team’s return to glory.

Marquette has had too many false starts that I won’t say we are back. That’s for our coach and our team to say in the coming days and weeks.

+1 - See previous post
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Jay Bee on November 30, 2022, 04:33:48 PM
The important piece I take from this is that they only attempted 16 3’s the entire game.  That shows that they were much more aggressive in taking the ball to the hoop.

Well, except that we took 25 3’s, or 41.7% of our FGAs. For the year, we’re at 45.1%
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: dgies9156 on November 30, 2022, 04:44:15 PM
I've said this before and I'll update again for newer Scoopers. All Marquette fans can be divided into three groups:

1) The Sweater Vests -- We're starting to die off. We don't just recall the McGuire years, we lived them. We saw some incredible basketball. Many of us were on campus in March 1977. We think Marquette should be a dominant team in college basketball, up there with Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky and others. We've gotten very quiet in recent years. Some of us ponied up the cash to tank Wojo. We loved last night because it was nostalgic. It reminded us of our youth. We hope we see a Natty again before we join Coach Al on the Warrior cloud in the sky. We worship Al McGuire and long for being a Top 5 team again.

2) The Window Wags -- These are folks who came of Golden Eagle age during the time of O'Neill, Crean or Buzz. Each was a short window. They saw the beginnings of what could have been a return to glory only to see our coaches disappear to Indiana, Tennessee or Virginia Tech. They know kinda what we can be but have never seen a consistent winner because our coaches take a hike. These are the folks that will be converted to sweater vests if Shaka is the real thing. Last night was a "we're baaaaaack" moment for these folks. These folks worship Dwyane Wade and grasp the "one shining moment" against Kentucky.

3) Wojo's Wusses -- This could easily be Deane's Dreams or Dukiet's dumps. These folks had to live through some of the worst basketball ever played at Marquette. They cry at the whisper "Tony Reeder" or "Hausergate." They also encompass the later Majerus and Raymonds years. We almost lost the program in these years and these are the folks grasping on to any straw they can. They'll be fine if we're consistent and Shaka stays. Last night was a holy crap moment for these folks because they rarely saw anything like it. These folks don't worship anyone and are cynical. I know I would be if I grew up on this basketball.

Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: mugrad_89 on November 30, 2022, 04:52:01 PM
Well, except that we took 25 3’s, or 41.7% of our FGAs. For the year, we’re at 45.1%

We also took 15 free throws.  And how many 3’s in the last 8 minutes of the game when it was over?
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: tower912 on November 30, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
6-16 first half.   12-25 for the game.   
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Jay Bee on November 30, 2022, 05:24:22 PM
We also took 15 free throws.  And how many 3’s in the last 8 minutes of the game when it was over?

Huh? My comment was in response to you saying we took 16 3’s “the entire game”. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Newsdreams on November 30, 2022, 08:47:32 PM
Way too much reading l, Arby's!
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 01, 2022, 10:49:56 AM
I've said this before and I'll update again for newer Scoopers. All Marquette fans can be divided into three groups:

1) The Sweater Vests -- We're starting to die off. We don't just recall the McGuire years, we lived them. We saw some incredible basketball. Many of us were on campus in March 1977. We think Marquette should be a dominant team in college basketball, up there with Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky and others. We've gotten very quiet in recent years. Some of us ponied up the cash to tank Wojo. We loved last night because it was nostalgic. It reminded us of our youth. We hope we see a Natty again before we join Coach Al on the Warrior cloud in the sky. We worship Al McGuire and long for being a Top 5 team again.

2) The Window Wags -- These are folks who came of Golden Eagle age during the time of O'Neill, Crean or Buzz. Each was a short window. They saw the beginnings of what could have been a return to glory only to see our coaches disappear to Indiana, Tennessee or Virginia Tech. They know kinda what we can be but have never seen a consistent winner because our coaches take a hike. These are the folks that will be converted to sweater vests if Shaka is the real thing. Last night was a "we're baaaaaack" moment for these folks. These folks worship Dwyane Wade and grasp the "one shining moment" against Kentucky.

3) Wojo's Wusses -- This could easily be Deane's Dreams or Dukiet's dumps. These folks had to live through some of the worst basketball ever played at Marquette. They cry at the whisper "Tony Reeder" or "Hausergate." They also encompass the later Majerus and Raymonds years. We almost lost the program in these years and these are the folks grasping on to any straw they can. They'll be fine if we're consistent and Shaka stays. Last night was a holy crap moment for these folks because they rarely saw anything like it. These folks don't worship anyone and are cynical. I know I would be if I grew up on this basketball.

Idk if it can be this perfectly summed up but I get the broader point you're making. Though if a person went to school from 92-96 or 93-97 they saw MU make the tournament 3 times, make a march run, and make an NIT championship. Are they in group 2 or 3? Technically they saw more Deane which puts them in 3 but saw more basketball success than a person who was at MU 90-94 who would be in 2 which is odd considering the rest of 2 is 01-02 to 12-13
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Jay Bee on December 01, 2022, 10:53:56 AM
Idk if it can be this perfectly summed up but I get the broader point you're making. Though if a person went to school from 92-96 or 93-97 they saw MU make the tournament 3 times, make a march run, and make an NIT championship. Are they in group 2 or 3? Technically they saw more Deane which puts them in 3 but saw more basketball success than a person who was at MU 90-94 who would be in 2 which is odd considering the rest of 2 is 01-02 to 12-13

Important to note that those of us in those time frame are the LAST WARRIORS. 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Hards Alumni on December 01, 2022, 11:15:10 AM
Important to note that those of us in those time frame are the LAST WARRIORS.

Also, old.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 01, 2022, 11:17:28 AM
Important to note that those of us in those time frame are the LAST WARRIORS.

Or the first Golden Eagles  :P
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: AlienWarrior on December 01, 2022, 11:26:33 AM
As in several Olympic sports eg gymnastics, you drop the highest and the lowest scores and that's where this team lies. The Baylor win was a 10. So far, no 0s.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: JWags85 on December 01, 2022, 02:16:08 PM
Wisconsin is obviously an interesting matchup for many reasons, but that ND game is really important to get a noncon road win.  You take out that unexpected MSU stomping and what a mediocre season so far.

Should have probably lost to Radford (#239 KenPom).  Need a 3 with 15 seconds left to sneak past Lipscomb (#164 KenPom) at home.  1 possession game late against Youngstown St (#156 KenPom).  Then also lost soundly at home to St Bonny (#106 KenPom with losses to Canisus and So Dak St).  R

Really a team MU should handle.  Take care of that, this team is 9-2 entering conference play with 2 losses that look better and better by the day.  Miss St probably enters SEC play undefeated, same with Purdue with the meat of the B10 (not counting the 2 random early B10 games in December against Minny and NU they probably roll in)
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: bilsu on December 01, 2022, 03:01:36 PM
I believe we are better than I thought we would be.
I do not think we played as well as we should have in our buy games, which worried me some.
Baylor game makes me very optimistic.
I have watched Purdue several times, since we played them. The fact that we almost beat them at Purdue makes me optimistic about this team.
Third place behind Uconn & Creighton is probably the best we can hope for.
I am predicting 4th place. I will be back down to 9th, if we lose to Badgers.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Newsdreams on December 01, 2022, 09:38:29 PM
I've said this before and I'll update again for newer Scoopers. All Marquette fans can be divided into three groups:

1) The Sweater Vests -- We're starting to die off. We don't just recall the McGuire years, we lived them. We saw some incredible basketball. Many of us were on campus in March 1977. We think Marquette should be a dominant team in college basketball, up there with Duke, North Carolina, Villanova, Kentucky and others. We've gotten very quiet in recent years. Some of us ponied up the cash to tank Wojo. We loved last night because it was nostalgic. It reminded us of our youth. We hope we see a Natty again before we join Coach Al on the Warrior cloud in the sky. We worship Al McGuire and long for being a Top 5 team again.

2) The Window Wags -- These are folks who came of Golden Eagle age during the time of O'Neill, Crean or Buzz. Each was a short window. They saw the beginnings of what could have been a return to glory only to see our coaches disappear to Indiana, Tennessee or Virginia Tech. They know kinda what we can be but have never seen a consistent winner because our coaches take a hike. These are the folks that will be converted to sweater vests if Shaka is the real thing. Last night was a "we're baaaaaack" moment for these folks. These folks worship Dwyane Wade and grasp the "one shining moment" against Kentucky.

3) Wojo's Wusses -- This could easily be Deane's Dreams or Dukiet's dumps. These folks had to live through some of the worst basketball ever played at Marquette. They cry at the whisper "Tony Reeder" or "Hausergate." They also encompass the later Majerus and Raymonds years. We almost lost the program in these years and these are the folks grasping on to any straw they can. They'll be fine if we're consistent and Shaka stays. Last night was a holy crap moment for these folks because they rarely saw anything like it. These folks don't worship anyone and are cynical. I know I would be if I grew up on this basketball.
What about those of us in the Hank era?
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2022, 10:36:26 PM
What about those of us in the Hank era?

You’re kind but sad.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Spotcheck Billy on December 02, 2022, 08:19:04 AM
What about those of us in the Hank era?

also a sweatervest
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: bilsu on December 02, 2022, 08:31:27 AM
What about those of us in the Hank era?
Technically, the Raymond era started before the McGuire era.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: tower912 on December 02, 2022, 08:37:03 AM
You’re kind but sad.
Lenny, I have missed you actually making a joke.  Well done.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: DoggyDaddy on December 02, 2022, 08:46:30 AM
What about those of us in the Hank era?
Well said. As a proud Sweater Vester, I remember the Michigan game in 1971 and glad the announcers mentioned it. What a feeling that was back then, what a feeling that was again. What a treat for the new student body to see it in person.
 
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: GoldenEagles03 on December 02, 2022, 12:10:39 PM
I think this question becomes much muddier and confusing with a loss tomorrow.

We go from a major high in the Baylor win to a disappointing turnaround loss to a probably less gifted UW team.

With a win tomorrow, I think it's fair to say we have potential to have a special team being able to stack multiple good efforts in a row against good teams (though a loss doesn't necessarily rule this out either).

I'm going to the arena with no expectations and just an excitement to see how this team follows up Tuesdays shellacking.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on December 02, 2022, 12:50:14 PM
I think this question becomes much muddier and confusing with a loss tomorrow.

We go from a major high in the Baylor win to a disappointing turnaround loss to a probably less gifted UW team.

With a win tomorrow, I think it's fair to say we have potential to have a special team being able to stack multiple good efforts in a row against good teams (though a loss doesn't necessarily rule this out either).

I'm going to the arena with no expectations and just an excitement to see how this team follows up Tuesdays shellacking.

You think too much.

You flip flop too much.

1 game especially a close loss doesnt muddy any sort of full season outlook.
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: Stretchdeltsig on December 02, 2022, 12:55:16 PM
The good thing is that nobody here believes we are contenders for the Final Four (at least not yet), and that the optimists here believes our team has great potential.

One thing I have absolutely no doubt about is whether or not this team will work hard.

82, I compliment you for your positive comments and attitude. We need all mates on deck to help this team win. Go Marquette!
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: rgoode57 on December 02, 2022, 01:52:47 PM
I have a very close friend who played major college ball at a very high level and watches MU regularly because of our friendship. His comment after the Baylor game was "...a textbook example of hard work and team basketball on both ends of the court. But, they will not have another game where it's that easy against a good team. Now those kids have to learn how to grind out a hard win. They have to find their go-to guy on offense, and I haven't seen him yet."
Title: Re: OK, so how good is Marquette?
Post by: THRILLHO on December 02, 2022, 07:28:03 PM
...
They have to find their go-to guy on offense, and I haven't seen him yet."

I think Kam has the attitude for it but still needs more diversity in his game. Right now his go to move at the end of the shot clock is just to back up so far they dare him to shoot. But his drive is improving and he could grow into that role.