MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on May 17, 2022, 01:34:42 PM
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They are advocating that teaching kids to make contact with the ball rather than swinging for the seats will make for a more exciting and entertaining game.
What do you think?
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My mom's family is from the Bronx. My great-grandfather was a New York Giants fan and believed in the philosophies of John McGraw - drawing walks, hitting runners over, etc. etc. My grandfather however loved the new brand of ball played by the Ruth-era Yankees - just hit the ball hard and circle the bases. This was of course amplified by the Yankees moving out of their tenant relationship at the Polo Grounds and building a brand new stadium just a mile or so from where he lived. Despite this, my great grandfather never became a Yankee fan because they didn't play the game properly.
IOW, these discussions have been occurring as long as baseball has been around. Teaching kids how to play small ball is not going to have any impact on the major leagues.
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This is like people complaining about how basketball has changed too. Too much outside shooting and not enough fundamental inside game.
My nephew is 11 and getting to the age where legit talent on the basketball court starts to separate themselves. His friend is very tall for his age, probably 5'10 already. Very skilled, shoots well, but their coach keeps insisting on making him play the 5 and try to play back to the basket. Its beyond silly. And even if coaches like that are successful at that level, its not gonna effect how the pro game is played and likely puts kids at a disadvantage going forward.
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I umpire youth baseball. The three age groups I ump most are 13-14 year olds, 11-12 year olds, and 10 year olds.
I have seen some talented kids during my 9 years of doing this, including a few who have gone on to play for P5 colleges, and lots of kids who had nice high school careers. Also lots of less-talented kids, of course.
Very, very, VERY few of these kids over the years have swung for the fences. Most are taught to hit line drives with balanced, smooth swings. Coaches emphasize smart baserunning. There's not a ton of bunting, but there is some. There is a lot of base-stealing because most pitchers at this age aren't adept at holding baserunners close.
Players grow into hitting for more power, something that takes place at the high school level and higher.
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The whole launch angle/exit velocity fad is already starting to pass. As nads said, kids aren't hitting home runs, for the most part, unless they have natural power at a young age.
12s, playing on 200 or 225 foot fences, was the first year that we saw multiple kids hit home runs. (We are a very good community team, club teams are a different story.)
13s move to the full size diamond with 300 foot fences. Only have seen a few dingers so far this year.
14s and in to high school is where the power starts to show.
I think that we will see the importance of opposite field hitting and better base running starting to develop. It's unreal that MLB players can't hit out of a shift to the opposite field. And base running is generally terrible now. But kids aren't playing pickle or running bases in the back yards anymore, so they don't learn good base running.
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My son played travel baseball for a number of years. He still takes hitting lessons from an instructor at his last organization. This instructor has managed throughout the minor leagues and was the traveling hitting instructor in the minor league system for a major league team. He teaches a balanced, line drive hitting style with the premise that learn to hit line drives and the power will come.
In the cage next to him is the owner of the local travel ball organization. He cherry picks from all of the other teams to get his team. He teaches the uppercut swing currently in vogue and won't take kids on his team who don't swing that way.
It is a fascinating dichotomy to watch these two completely different philosophies being taught next to each other. I listen to what my son is working on while watching something completely different 20 feet away.
Meanwhile, three cages over, the pitching instructors are doing everything to get kids to throw harder. And there, IMO, is the biggest change in baseball. None of our boyhood heroes had to face an endless procession of middle relievers throwing 15 pitches at 97 mph and then being replaced by another doing the same.
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You do what you are compensated to do.
Coaches are compensated for winning games, so they are going to coach strategies that best accomplish that goal or they won't be coaching for long. Players are compensated for putting up stats in a manner that wins ballgames, and the statistical revolution in baseball shows that small ball isn't the optimum way to accomplish that.
Even if people find a 100 SB/year guy or a contact hitter entertaining, there isn't any going back.
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My son played travel baseball for a number of years. He still takes hitting lessons from an instructor at his last organization. This instructor has managed throughout the minor leagues and was the traveling hitting instructor in the minor league system for a major league team. He teaches a balanced, line drive hitting style with the premise that learn to hit line drives and the power will come.
In the cage next to him is the owner of the local travel ball organization. He cherry picks from all of the other teams to get his team. He teaches the uppercut swing currently in vogue and won't take kids on his team who don't swing that way.
It is a fascinating dichotomy to watch these two completely different philosophies being taught next to each other. I listen to what my son is working on while watching something completely different 20 feet away.
Meanwhile, three cages over, the pitching instructors are doing everything to get kids to throw harder. And there, IMO, is the biggest change in baseball. None of our boyhood heroes had to face an endless procession of middle relievers throwing 15 pitches at 97 mph and then being replaced by another doing the same.
Pitching is another can of worms. Smart coaches monitor pitch counts and arm health. Dumb coaches will have kids that can't wipe their own asses by age 15.
We played against a club team this past weekend. We throw 7-8 out of 11 kids on a given weekend. This team was similar. He told us that of the other teams they faced, they saw 4 pitchers over 3 games. (Played the same team in pool play and bracket play.) That means that one of the kids pitched 6 innings in 2 days(this tournament had a 3 inning max per game for pitchers.) 25 pitch innings are the norm. And this is with the jump from 50' to 60' mounds, so all of the kids are overthrowing.
Kids like this are easily throwing 120 pitches in a weekend with 0 days rest and playing in the field when they aren't pitching. (65+ pitches is 4 days rest per USA Baseball pitch smart. Daily max is 95 at 13/14) It's borderline criminal what some of these coaches are doing to kids at a young age.
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They are advocating that teaching kids to make contact with the ball rather than swinging for the seats will make for a more exciting and entertaining game.
What do you think?
Baseball, dying since 1900
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This is like people complaining about how basketball has changed too. Too much outside shooting and not enough fundamental inside game.
My nephew is 11 and getting to the age where legit talent on the basketball court starts to separate themselves. His friend is very tall for his age, probably 5'10 already. Very skilled, shoots well, but their coach keeps insisting on making him play the 5 and try to play back to the basket. Its beyond silly. And even if coaches like that are successful at that level, its not gonna effect how the pro game is played and likely puts kids at a disadvantage going forward.
Basketball was a boring street fight for long stretches of history...why would anyone want to go back to that?
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Pitching is another can of worms. Smart coaches monitor pitch counts and arm health. Dumb coaches will have kids that can't wipe their own asses by age 15.
We played against a club team this past weekend. We throw 7-8 out of 11 kids on a given weekend. This team was similar. He told us that of the other teams they faced, they saw 4 pitchers over 3 games. (Played the same team in pool play and bracket play.) That means that one of the kids pitched 6 innings in 2 days(this tournament had a 3 inning max per game for pitchers.) 25 pitch innings are the norm. And this is with the jump from 50' to 60' mounds, so all of the kids are overthrowing.
Kids like this are easily throwing 120 pitches in a weekend with 0 days rest and playing in the field when they aren't pitching. (65+ pitches is 4 days rest per USA Baseball pitch smart. Daily max is 95 at 13/14) It's borderline criminal what some of these coaches are doing to kids at a young age.
You and I may never agree more than we do on this issue. (Except possibly Caddyshack quotes) Had a conversation last week with a HS sophomore with an 8 inch scar on his elbow from Tommy John surgery. I asked him if it was from one freak event or if he was one of those kids who had pitching incessantly since he was 8. He chuckled sadly and said it was the second one.
The most egregious thing I ever saw in person was on a rainy Tuesday night when my son was 12. The local travel organizations had come together and organized a league where they could play 1-2 games a week against each other in order to stay sharp for tournaments. On this rainy Tuesday night, the opposing coach had a 12 year old throw a 120 pitches in a meaningless game.
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Petitions will really help. ::)
The fad came about because the ball was extremely juiced, so it was smart baseball to change one’s swing plane. 5-7 HR Guys could hit 20-25.
Now, they’ve deadened the ball again, so we will get a natural progression in hitting style.
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You and I may never agree more than we do on this issue. (Except possibly Caddyshack quotes) Had a conversation last week with a HS sophomore with an 8 inch scar on his elbow from Tommy John surgery. I asked him if it was from one freak event or if he was one of those kids who had pitching incessantly since he was 8. He chuckled sadly and said it was the second one.
Some kids and parent want them to have TJ surgery. They think it makes their arm stronger, despite no evidence to that.
Probably coming from the uppercut coaches.
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The fad came about because the ball was extremely juiced, so it was smart baseball to change one’s swing plane. 5-7 HR Guys could hit 20-25.
Now, they’ve deadened the ball again, so we will get a natural progression in hitting style.
This is my hope, that the pendulum will swing back to where the home run is no longer overvalued because it has become harder to hit. So the OBP becomes the gold standard, getting on base frequently is king again. We'll always have the big boppers, but everyone shouldn't have to try to be a big bopper.
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This is my hope, that the pendulum will swing back to where the home run is no longer overvalued because it has become harder to hit. So the OBP becomes the gold standard, getting on base frequently is king again. We'll always have the big boppers, but everyone shouldn't have to try to be a big bopper.
I still think that OPS is the best snapshot metric but agree with the rest of your post.
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This is my hope, that the pendulum will swing back to where the home run is no longer overvalued because it has become harder to hit. So the OBP becomes the gold standard, getting on base frequently is king again. We'll always have the big boppers, but everyone shouldn't have to try to be a big bopper.
Pretty safe bet some organization is slowly changing its philosophy when it comes to hitting to reflect this.
The 3 true outcomes stuff is ripe to be exploited. Hitters capable of working counts and driving up pitch counts and wearing out arms will be a thing again. Regardless of what the stats people tell me, a 10-pitch K is a lot better than a 3-pitch K
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Baseball, dying since 1900
So true.
Still, there are things that can be done to make baseball at the highest levels better. The powers-that-be are aware of some of the problems and they are at least trying some of the solutions. Will be interesting to see how things progress.
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My kid has three 10 pitch walks this season and I can tell you that his coaches and teammates started getting fired up the second and third times to the point that they were a screaming mass when he walked and both times the energy sparked a rally.
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You and I may never agree more than we do on this issue. (Except possibly Caddyshack quotes) Had a conversation last week with a HS sophomore with an 8 inch scar on his elbow from Tommy John surgery. I asked him if it was from one freak event or if he was one of those kids who had pitching incessantly since he was 8. He chuckled sadly and said it was the second one.
The most egregious thing I ever saw in person was on a rainy Tuesday night when my son was 12. The local travel organizations had come together and organized a league where they could play 1-2 games a week against each other in order to stay sharp for tournaments. On this rainy Tuesday night, the opposing coach had a 12 year old throw a 120 pitches in a meaningless game.
I played on a travel team in my teens. We had a variety of pitchers but 2 "aces". One was an absolute fireballer who then developed a curve that he didn't throw soundly mechanically, but could get a huge drop, which was enough for most teens to be baffled by. The other was a slower pitcher who through changeups, knuckleballs, and a variety of offspeed junk that was totally effective. We weren't tracking ERAs, but they were pretty dang close.
Guess which one the coach used to throw twice as many innings till he was exhausted?
Oh and both pitched D3 college ball. Guess which one had a blown out arm by sophomore year and transferred to a school where he no longer played baseball and which one played all 4 years?
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Some people enjoy it.
Very little action for long pauses of inactivity.
If with a group of friends in the stands chatting it up, no big deal.
Otherwise, IMHO, BORING.
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Some people enjoy it.
Very little action for long pauses of inactivity.
If with a group of friends in the stands chatting it up, no big deal.
Otherwise, IMHO, BORING.
I can't remember the last time I sat down and watched a ballgame. I'll tune in for the 9th inning of a close game, or watch an inning here or there, or watch the last few innings of a tight postseason game. But to sit there and watch 9 innings, as I used to do for years and years ... I simply can't do it anymore.
At this point I'm not sure what changes they could make to revive interest in guys like you and me, but we're probably not the audience they're shooting for when they do some of the things they're trying.
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I still do regularly. I do that in lieu of getting into tons of shows on the streaming services.
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I still do regularly. I do that in lieu of getting into tons of shows on the streaming services.
I definitely would watch a ballgame with you, tower. Especially if you’re buying the beer!
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$18 per? I don't like you THAT much.
;D
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As a kid I loved watching all the Cubs games on WGN during the day with Jack Brickhouse.
The Brew crew with the homerun bombers of the 1980s was also a lot of fun to watch.
Maybe the fact that NC doesn't have a mlb team has something to do with it.
Lots of minor league teams.
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I can't remember the last time I sat down and watched a ballgame. I'll tune in for the 9th inning of a close game, or watch an inning here or there, or watch the last few innings of a tight postseason game. But to sit there and watch 9 innings, as I used to do for years and years ... I simply can't do it anymore.
At this point I'm not sure what changes they could make to revive interest in guys like you and me, but we're probably not the audience they're shooting for when they do some of the things they're trying.
I knew multiple people when I was living in Chicago that watched EVERY White Sox game. Every one. My uncle watches EVERY Brewers game. Its just baffling to me.
I'm a huge Cubs fan. 2016 was one of the best times of my life and one of 2 times I ever cried about sports. Can always tell you how they're playing, their recent results, stats and lineups, etc.. But I don't think Ive ever watched more than 50 full regular season games live. And that may be high. Maybe if it was the only team or sport I truly cared about.
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It’s something to have on in the background on a summer evening. But that’s about it unless it’s playoff time.
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I still do regularly. I do that in lieu of getting into tons of shows on the streaming services.
Watching that many tigers games could be terrible for your health.
We pretty much have the Brewers on every night that we are home.
Growing up, it was play baseball outside until 1 pm. Come inside, get lunch, turn on WGN and watch the Cubs. After the game, go back outside and play more baseball.
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Watching that many tigers games could be terrible for your health
Reminds me to stay patient and embrace the journey.
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$18 per? I don't like you THAT much.
;D
I thought we’d be at a sports bar!
As a kid I loved watching all the Cubs games on WGN during the day with Jack Brickhouse.
The Brew crew with the homerun bombers of the 1980s was also a lot of fun to watch.
Maybe the fact that NC doesn't have a mlb team has something to do with it.
Lots of minor league teams.
I stopped watching full ballgames on TV long before I moved to NC, but yeah living here does make MLB seem “far away.”
When I was at MU, the Brewers were SO much fun to watch - Bambi’s Bombers and Harvey’s Wallbangers! We’d sit in the RF bleachers and get tons of BP souvenirs.
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Never forget, chicks dig the long ball.
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I have the Yankees on pretty much every night. I don't usually watch anywhere near the whole game, but take in a few innings.
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I have the Yankees on pretty much every night. I don't usually watch anywhere near the whole game, but take in a few innings.
I too am a Yankee fan and like you will take in a few innings. However, when I was a young kid I would watch not just a whole game but a doubleheader. Back in the 50s watching a game on TV was a novelty and watching not just the Yankees, but the Giants and Dodgers as well. Those Dodger/Giants games were fun to watch. I also looked forward to the annual All Star game when it was something special. The only night games back then were mostly on Fridays with a few on Tuesdays as well, but most games were day games that ended around 4 or 5 pm depending on the start time of the game.
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I too am a Yankee fan and like you will take in a few innings. However, when I was a young kid I would watch not just a whole game but a doubleheader. Back in the 50s watching a game on TV was a novelty and watching not just the Yankees, but the Giants and Dodgers as well. Those Dodger/Giants games were fun to watch. I also looked forward to the annual All Star game when it was something special. The only night games back then were mostly on Fridays with a few on Tuesdays as well, but most games were day games that ended around 4 or 5 pm depending on the start time of the game.
Since every game is on television, people aren't going to take time like they did back when it was a "novelty."
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I think of all the sports, baseball will be permanently negatively impacted by COVID. The media announcers are just so bland and create no viewing excitement, with the ESPN crews the poster child of bland. The cost of in person attendance has outgrown its fans' ATMs.
After being locked down during COVID, a four or five hour investment in a baseball game (more for in person with travel time), just isn't worth it for many fans, especially for the experiences being offered. The DH made boring games even longer. And, young fans now moved to the suburbs to start families en masse.
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I think of all the sports, baseball will be permanently negatively impacted by COVID. The media announcers are just so bland and create no viewing excitement, with the ESPN crews the poster child of bland. The cost of in person attendance has outgrown its fans' ATMs.
After being locked down during COVID, a four or five hour investment in a baseball game (more for in person with travel time), just isn't worth it for many fans, especially for the experiences being offered. The DH made boring games even longer. And, young fans now moved to the suburbs to start families en masse.
Replace "COVID" with "Strike" and this could have been written in 1995.
People have been predicting the demise of baseball for decades.
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Replace "COVID" with "Strike" and this could have been written in 1995.
People have been predicting the demise of baseball for decades.
The 1995 strike didn't also have a draconian and moronic social media policy that misses out on HUGE opportunities to attract/engage fans at the same time
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I think service time and service time manipulation does legitimate damage to fan interest. For losing teams, players who should get fans excited for the future have been buried in the minors for years. Compared to the timing of the draft, its like having a marketing extravaganza for a summer movie blockbuster in April and May of this year, then stopping, then quietly releasing the movie in two years. Sure lot players need legitimate work in the minors, but there's no reason for top prospects to languish for years. If you're a fan of the Rays or the A's or another small market, smart drafting team, we need to find a way to get these guys into the majors earlier without punishing the team for bringing them up.
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Replace "COVID" with "Strike" and this could have been written in 1995.
People have been predicting the demise of baseball for decades.
The 1995 strike killed baseball in Montreal.