MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Galway Eagle on February 14, 2022, 12:34:27 PM
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Curious to everyone's thoughts on the various USA born individuals competing for other countries?
What about the various foreign individuals competing for the USA?
How should the Olympics define who you can compete for.
Seems like a bigger deal's being made about it this year than previouslybecause of the Chinese-American athletes, but we benefit from it to (Hakeem Olajuwon)
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I think it should be dependent on where you live. If you like in the US, compete for the US, if you live in Sweden, compete for Sweden.
I don't like the "I compete for Italy in *insert sport* because my great grandfather lived there" that goes on. Usually as a means to make an Olympic sport you wouldn't make in your home country.
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Whatever rules the country has to determine citizenship is fine by me.
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Whatever rules the country has to determine citizenship is fine by me.
So you say an athlete must be a citizen in your opinion? (was just reading about how in figure skating. Pairs don't need both to be citizens to compete for a country)
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So you say an athlete must be a citizen in your opinion? (was just reading about how in figure skating. Pairs don't need both to be citizens to compete for a country)
If that's what they do for pairs right now, that is fine. I really don't have any issue with the status quo.
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I think it should be dependent on where you live. If you like in the US, compete for the US, if you live in Sweden, compete for Sweden.
I don't like the "I compete for Italy in *insert sport* because my great grandfather lived there" that goes on. Usually as a means to make an Olympic sport you wouldn't make in your home country.
Could you define "live" I mean i feel like we have issues defining that in our own elections let alone a bunch of countries desperate for glory. Would a summer home in Canada count? What if the Jamaican bobsled team lives in the USA for training? How long should they be a resident?
Not trying to poke holes I just genuinely am curious and don't know what I think the requirement should be. Originally was going to say citizenship. But then I got to thinking I could represent Italy by that logic because a drop of blood rule, or even Armenia because it's based on "a great service to the country" which seem a bit sketchy.
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I think it should be dependent on where you live. If you like in the US, compete for the US, if you live in Sweden, compete for Sweden.
I don't like the "I compete for Italy in *insert sport* because my great grandfather lived there" that goes on. Usually as a means to make an Olympic sport you wouldn't make in your home country.
What about athletes who live in another country for professional reasons?
For example, a lot of Russian NHL players make their year-round homes in the U.S.
I have no problem with athletes taking advantage of opportunities to participate in the Olympics by competing for another country they have ties to.
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If that's what they do for pairs right now, that is fine. I really don't have any issue with the status quo.
I didnt really either till I found out apparently some lesser athletically accomplished countries are fast tracking visas to let about anyone compete live there or not, citizen or not. that bugged me a bit, as I feel like you should have at least some sort of tie to a nation to raise their flag and sing their anthem for the Olympics even if it's a great great grandparent over a country essentially "hiring athletes"
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Uhhh gang, I don't think you want to go to deep with this one.
In 1976, Butch Lee of our beloved Marquette Warriors competed for Puerto Rico.
While he was born in Puerto Rico, he went to school in New York and was recruited from New York by Coach McGuire.
At the time of the Olympics, he lived in Milwaukee and yet competed for Puerto Rico.
As Marquette folklore goes, Mr. Lee almost single-handedly took down the high and mighty U.S. Olympic Men's Basketball Team. A legendary game that probably was the first time a Marquette guy drove Dean Smith absolutely crazy.
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Like everything else with the IOC, it's corrupt and shady.
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Don't look too hard at Qatar's upcoming World Cup team.
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Curious to everyone's thoughts on the various USA born individuals competing for other countries?
What about the various foreign individuals competing for the USA?
How should the Olympics define who you can compete for.
Seems like a bigger deal's being made about it this year than previouslybecause of the Chinese-American athletes, but we benefit from it to (Hakeem Olajuwon)
Citizenship. If countries want to change their citizenship rules to get more/better athletes, so be it. I also think there should be a "world" team, for those who want to participate but cannot make their own country's team. All proceeds from the world team should go to fight world causes (hunger, lack of medicine, etc)
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Citizenship. If countries want to change their citizenship rules to get more/better athletes, so be it. I also think there should be a "world" team, for those who want to participate but cannot make their own country's team. All proceeds from the world team should go to fight world causes (hunger, lack of medicine, etc)
Wow their opponents could be the first ones to say "it's us against the world!" and not be using hyperbole
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I think it should be dependent on where you live. If you like in the US, compete for the US, if you live in Sweden, compete for Sweden.
I don't like the "I compete for Italy in *insert sport* because my great grandfather lived there" that goes on. Usually as a means to make an Olympic sport you wouldn't make in your home country.
This would negate a significant portion of the countries for some sports. Skiing for example. Or the myriad swimmers who go to the US for collegiate swimming and then train there. Not to mention professional athletes like Pakuni mentioned. If you're an incredible athlete, but your country has extremely limited resources/training/etc...why should you be forever hampered?
That being said, some of the citizenship stuff is a bit spurious. I mean, she has a crazy and sad story, but Humphries winning the Bobsled gold for the US when she had multiple Olympic medals for Canada, has been a US citizen for no time at all, and the celebration shots are of her family in Calgary is kind of nuts.
The Eileen Gu saga is different cause it smacks kind of shady, the lack of transparency about her citizenship, and the way China handles everything doesn't sit well with some people.
It is amusing to watch how difficult soccer players have it trying to get work permits to play in the UK or Europe but then the Olympics are like "ehh, good enough"
Don't look too hard at Qatar's upcoming World Cup team.
What about that is egregious? You have a bunch of guys who have been living and playing in Qatar for a decade. Not like there are a bunch of hired guns added this year. Ive no need to defend Qatar in anything, but it just doesn't seem all that significant. Look at Jorginho for Italy, or Diego Costa playing for Spain. It seems more legit than a lot of guys who play for former French colonies, some who hadn't been to the country they represented until they were called up.
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Wow their opponents could be the first ones to say "it's us against the world!" and not be using hyperbole
I also think there should be a separate Olympic Games where all substances are allowed. Wonder what Olympics would get better ratings?
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That being said, some of the citizenship stuff is a bit spurious. I mean, she has a crazy and sad story, but Humphries winning the Bobsled gold for the US when she had multiple Olympic medals for Canada, has been a US citizen for no time at all, and the celebration shots are of her family in Calgary is kind of nuts.
She was married to an American for years though right? Like she could have become a US citizen at any point?
I do agree though it is pretty weird to see.
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The Eileen Gu saga is different cause it smacks kind of shady, the lack of transparency about her citizenship, and the way China handles everything doesn't sit well with some people.
That and the fact it's an entirely cynical money grab by her (or, more likely, the people around her, since she was 15 when it happened).
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She was married to an American for years though right? Like she could have become a US citizen at any point but due to the US forcing you to give up any citizenship to become a citizen she chose not to?
I thought the US allowed dual nationality.
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That and the fact it's an entirely cynical money grab by her (or, more likely, the people around her, since she was 15 when it happened).
This. Much of what she does (and don't underestimate her talent) seems geared to the big old Chinese market.
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I thought the US allowed dual nationality.
If you are a US citizen you can apply for a dual citenzship. If you would like to become a US citizen you have to give up your former citizenship. I'm sure someone's going to find some weird anecdotal exception or maybe there's some random countries that this isn't the case for but this is predominantly the policy.
Born a citizen: get allegiance to anyone you want
Want to be a citizen: prove it and get rid of your former allegiance
My bad I misinterpreted the rules
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If you are a US citizen you can apply for a dual citenzship. If you would like to become a US citizen you have to give up your former citizenship. I'm sure someone's going to find some weird anecdotal exception or maybe there's some random countries that this isn't the case for but this is predominantly the policy.
Born a citizen: get allegiance to anyone you want
Want to be a citizen: prove it and get rid of your former allegiance
Uh, no. Those who want US citizenship do not have to renounce their rights, if their former country allows dual citizenship. One does take an Oath of Allegiance, but caselaw pretty much makes that meaningless.
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Uh, no. Those who want US citizenship do not have to renounce their rights, if their former country allows dual citizenship. One does take an Oath of Allegiance, but caselaw pretty much makes that meaningless.
I literally read that this AM about the foreign athletes for the USA...
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What about that is egregious? You have a bunch of guys who have been living and playing in Qatar for a decade. Not like there are a bunch of hired guns added this year. Ive no need to defend Qatar in anything, but it just doesn't seem all that significant. Look at Jorginho for Italy, or Diego Costa playing for Spain. It seems more legit than a lot of guys who play for former French colonies, some who hadn't been to the country they represented until they were called up.
To be honest, I thought it was worse than it was until I looked them up. For a mideastern petro-state, it's not bad.
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I literally read that this AM about the foreign athletes for the USA...
Dual citizenship countries:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-allow-dual-citizenship (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-allow-dual-citizenship)
More info:
https://citizenpath.com/dual-citizenship-in-the-us/ (https://citizenpath.com/dual-citizenship-in-the-us/)
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She was married to an American for years though right? Like she could have become a US citizen at any point but due to the US forcing you to give up any citizenship to become a citizen she chose not to?
I do agree though it is pretty weird to see.
No, she was married to a Brit/Canadian. Her second husband is an American she married in 2019.
That and the fact it's an entirely cynical money grab by her (or, more likely, the people around her, since she was 15 when it happened).
Yea it’s all pretty ridiculous. Her “when I’m in China I’m Chinese, when I’m in America, I’m American” quote is prime marketing fluff
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Dual citizenship countries:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-allow-dual-citizenship (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-that-allow-dual-citizenship)
More info:
https://citizenpath.com/dual-citizenship-in-the-us/ (https://citizenpath.com/dual-citizenship-in-the-us/)
Hmm interesting. Well I'll happily blame the article that prompted this thread for that one and consider myself an impressionable reader.
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I thought the US allowed dual nationality.
My wife and kids are dual citizens of Poland. Both of my kids were born in the USA.
It helped my older daughter studying in France this semester. She did not have to pay to obtain a student visa from France as she entered on the Polish Passport.
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Uhhh gang, I don't think you want to go to deep with this one.
In 1976, Butch Lee of our beloved Marquette Warriors competed for Puerto Rico.
While he was born in Puerto Rico, he went to school in New York and was recruited from New York by Coach McGuire.
At the time of the Olympics, he lived in Milwaukee and yet competed for Puerto Rico.
As Marquette folklore goes, Mr. Lee almost single-handedly took down the high and mighty U.S. Olympic Men's Basketball Team. A legendary game that probably was the first time a Marquette guy drove Dean Smith absolutely crazy.
I don't have a problem with someone who didn't make their own country team get a chance elsewhere, like Butch Lee did (I may be wrong, but he may not have even been invited to tryout). I don't like US citizens competing for other countries as their first choice, but who am I to judge? They may have good reasons that I don't know or understand. Anyway, what I think is right and what is fair may be the same thing to me, but may not be to other people.
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I don't have a problem with someone who didn't make their own country team get a chance elsewhere, like Butch Lee did (I may be wrong, but he may not have even been invited to tryout). I don't like US citizens competing for other countries as their first choice, but who am I to judge? They may have good reasons that I don't know or understand. Anyway, what I think is right and what is fair may be the same thing to me, but may not be to other people.
Could you elaborate on this? Is it only if they medal/are favorited?
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Could you elaborate on this? Is it only if they medal/are favorited?
I thought I did above. If they are excluded from their home country team because they didn't make it or weren't invited or something, then certainly I have no problem with someone wanting to go to the Olympics and competing for someone else. If you are good enough to compete for your country, then you should compete for your country. And that goes for the hockey guys and the basketball guys. If you are a citizen of Russia or Nigeria, then play for Russia or Nigeria if they'll have you, not the US. Just my two cents, I really don't care all that much, especially about the Winter Olympics, which I've watched maybe an hour of so far.
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Curious to everyone's thoughts on the various USA born individuals competing for other countries?
What about the various foreign individuals competing for the USA?
How should the Olympics define who you can compete for.
Seems like a bigger deal's being made about it this year than previously because of the Chinese-American athletes, but we benefit from it to (Hakeem Olajuwon)
I prefer the FIFA rules that say once you compete for one country you cannot switch to another. I'm also not a fan of the government fast-tracking citizenship to get individuals on our Olympic team (we've poached a few from Canada) when we have so many stuck in the citizenship queue.
I thought I did above. If they are excluded from their home country team because they didn't make it or weren't invited or something, then certainly I have no problem with someone wanting to go to the Olympics and competing for someone else. If you are good enough to compete for your country, then you should compete for your country. And that goes for the hockey guys and the basketball guys. If you are a citizen of Russia or Nigeria, then play for Russia or Nigeria if they'll have you, not the US. Just my two cents, I really don't care all that much, especially about the Winter Olympics, which I've watched maybe an hour of so far.
My wife is a dual citizen and was going to try and make the national team of a country her parents are from she's lived in for one year of her life because she knew she had no chance at the US team (circumstances took her out of the sport though). I don't have an issue if there is legit citizenship ties.
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Letting athletes from other countries compete for a different nation, strictly so that nation can be better at that sport is reprehensible.
I mean, look at this nations program for recruiting elite runners to win more golds. The US would never do such a thing to get a competitive advantage.
https://theundefeated.com/features/u-s-armys-world-class-athlete-program-puts-runners-on-fast-track-to-citizenship/ (https://theundefeated.com/features/u-s-armys-world-class-athlete-program-puts-runners-on-fast-track-to-citizenship/)
https://www.armywcap.com
(https://www.armywcap.com)
Let athletes compete for whatever nation the want, and whatever gets them the most benefit for their talents. For the olympics some form of citizenship or at least heritage would make sense. But it is hypocritical to criticize other nations for it.
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I thought I did above. If they are excluded from their home country team because they didn't make it or weren't invited or something, then certainly I have no problem with someone wanting to go to the Olympics and competing for someone else. If you are good enough to compete for your country, then you should compete for your country. And that goes for the hockey guys and the basketball guys. If you are a citizen of Russia or Nigeria, then play for Russia or Nigeria if they'll have you, not the US. Just my two cents, I really don't care all that much, especially about the Winter Olympics, which I've watched maybe an hour of so far.
You for sure sort of touched on it but I was more curious about your thoughts on dual citizens or people who might have a choice (puerto Rico, N Ireland) those types of instances was more what I was hoping you'd elaborate on. As you said you don't care and that's cool, I'm just here trying to figure out my own thoughts on the matter and open a dialogue.
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Or maybe the Olympics should be more about their accomplishments as individuals and less about the countries they represent.
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Or maybe the Olympics should be more about their accomplishments as individuals and less about the countries they represent.
That’s a novel idea
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You for sure sort of touched on it but I was more curious about your thoughts on dual citizens or people who might have a choice (puerto Rico, N Ireland) those types of instances was more what I was hoping you'd elaborate on. As you said you don't care and that's cool, I'm just here trying to figure out my own thoughts on the matter and open a dialogue.
I never even considered dual citizenship, it never occurred to me. In that case it should be entirely up to the athlete. I guess I don't like that someone who is born and raised in one country, used that countries coaches and resources to develop their skills, and has no ties to another country other than ancestry, chooses to play for another country when they would have been welcomed on their home country team. I think that has enough caveats, though I probably missed a few.
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Or maybe the Olympics should be more about their accomplishments as individuals and less about the countries they represent.
So like a place where athletes don't represent anything but themselves and get paid sponsorships and paid to do so while competing against the other best athletes in the world? If only such a concept existed...
What's the point of Olympics if you take away the country thing? It's just a pro sports festival with Hockey and Basketball headlining each season and a bunch of openers.
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I never even considered dual citizenship, it never occurred to me. In that case it should be entirely up to the athlete. I guess I don't like that someone who is born and raised in one country, used that countries coaches and resources to develop their skills, and has no ties to another country other than ancestry, chooses to play for another country when they would have been welcomed on their home country team. I think that has enough caveats, though I probably missed a few.
what is your cutoff? Parents are immigrants so you can compete for their country but that's as far back one can go (my wife's situation, though interestingly enough her younger siblings were not eligible for dual citizenship)? Or you can only compete for the country where you were born and raised?
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So like a place where athletes don't represent anything but themselves and get paid sponsorships and paid to do so while competing against the other best athletes in the world? If only such a concept existed...
What's the point of Olympics if you take away the country thing? It's just a pro sports festival with Hockey and Basketball headlining each season and a bunch of openers.
Oddly enough, from the Olympic Charter:
The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team
events and not between countries. They bring together the athletes selected
by their respective NOCs, whose entries have been accepted by the IOC. They
compete under the technical direction of the IFs concerned.
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Oddly enough, from the Olympic Charter:
The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team
events and not between countries. They bring together the athletes selected
by their respective NOCs, whose entries have been accepted by the IOC. They
compete under the technical direction of the IFs concerned.
Huh interesting. Well I'll just huff right off into a corner now.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_changes_in_figure_skating#Pairs_and_ice_dancing
I believe the International Skating Union requires residency and that one member of a pair be a citizen, so that applies to things like the Grand Prix and World Championships, where you can indeed have mixed citizenship for couples. The International Olympic Committee requires one be a national, commonly seen as citizenship - each country gets to determine that part.
If someone can legitimately claim citizenship under a country’s rules, so be it. One of the issues with China is that it does not recognize dual citizenship , requiring one to renounce other citizenships, but apparently they have decided not to apply that to the hockey players they recruited, and probably the skier who won the gold medal, who refuses to answer directly, and who knows who else ( though not the figure skater apparently - she did not drive such a hard bargain it seems and maybe jumped the gun…).
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Oddly enough, from the Olympic Charter:
The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team
events and not between countries. They bring together the athletes selected
by their respective NOCs, whose entries have been accepted by the IOC. They
compete under the technical direction of the IFs concerned.
Except the IOC limits the number of athletes who can compete in an event by country. Which is why these other athletes country shop.
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I have dual U.S./German citizenship due to being born on an Army base in Germany to U.S. parents.
If I was an athlete that couldn't qualify for the U.S. Olympic team, but could compete for Germany, I would do it in a hot second. I would be sad that I wouldn't be in a U.S. uniform, but attending the Olympics would be an opportunity I would never pass up.
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I have dual U.S./German citizenship due to being born on an Army base in Germany to U.S. parents.
If I was an athlete that couldn't qualify for the U.S. Olympic team, but could compete for Germany, I would do it in a hot second. I would be sad that I wouldn't be in a U.S. uniform, but attending the Olympics would be an opportunity I would never pass up.
Yeah that makes sense, I mean you don't seem to have a connection to the country and it's just a perk of life to get you through security faster in the EU?
I have three citizenships, two passports (no point in paying for the Italian one) if I couldn't compete for Ireland or USA I don't think I'd suddenly get the Italian passport if I could qualify for their team. I mean I'd feel fake walking out behind a flag I don't have a connection to, if I medaled I wouldn't know the anthem, etc. but who knows maybe it's those sensibilities that make us be Olympic viewers and not athletes
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Don't look too hard at Qatar's upcoming World Cup team.
China's men's hockey team is a better example IMO.
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China's men's hockey team is a better example IMO.
they blatantly recruited anyone of chine ancestry (one guys family came to Canada in the mid 1800s) and couldn't fill a roster so just started grabbing people who play in China but to be fair Qatar also did that, 6-7 players with no real connection to the country (most from Sudan)
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Wait ... have the Olympics started?
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they blatantly recruited anyone of chine ancestry (one guys family came to Canada in the mid 1800s) and couldn't fill a roster so just started grabbing people who play in China but to be fair Qatar also did that, 6-7 players with no real connection to the country (most from Sudan)
Oh its better than that, if you play for China's lone KHL team, Kunlan Red Star, congrats, you're now Chinese! They have a journeyman AHL goalie from Detroit with zero Chinese ancestry, a Canadian Jewish player who actually has an Israeli passport, and my favorite...f*ing Chris Chelios' son, about as Chinese as can be.
As I mentioned with Qatar, its different, most of those African players (Sudan, Algeria, Egypt) came to Qatar when they were young (in their late teens) to play in the Qatari league or for the academies. Looking through the roster, pretty much everyone had been their either since they were 17-18 or 8-10+ years. Thats not unreasonable and not abnormal. Not like the hockey players who have been playing for China for 2 years and come back immediately in the offseason.
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I have dual U.S./German citizenship due to being born on an Army base in Germany to U.S. parents.
If I was an athlete that couldn't qualify for the U.S. Olympic team, but could compete for Germany, I would do it in a hot second. I would be sad that I wouldn't be in a U.S. uniform, but attending the Olympics would be an opportunity I would never pass up.
Ditto for both my children. My daughter was born in Belarus and adopted at Age 2. She is a naturalized American citizen but has a "right of return" granted her by the Republic of Belarus. Not that she'd ever want to return, mind you, but she has dual nationality.
My son also is a naturalized American from far eastern Ukraine. Not sure where he would be granted citizenship -- Ukraine or Russia!!!!!!
I doubt either of my children would want to be associated with their birth countries. Neither of them speak the language, their families and friends are Americans and their lives are here. So, were either to be an Olympian, the only team I could ever see them representing is our's!
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Oh its better than that, if you play for China's lone KHL team, Kunlan Red Star, congrats, you're now Chinese! They have a journeyman AHL goalie from Detroit with zero Chinese ancestry, a Canadian Jewish player who actually has an Israeli passport, and my favorite...f*ing Chris Chelios' son, about as Chinese as can be.
As I mentioned with Qatar, its different, most of those African players (Sudan, Algeria, Egypt) came to Qatar when they were young (in their late teens) to play in the Qatari league or for the academies. Looking through the roster, pretty much everyone had been their either since they were 17-18 or 8-10+ years. Thats not unreasonable and not abnormal. Not like the hockey players who have been playing for China for 2 years and come back immediately in the offseason.
It's a bit curious that they haven't tried a similar approach with Olympic basketball. I'd imagine that them being good in basketball would be more valuable to them than hockey after all.
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It's a bit curious that they haven't tried a similar approach with Olympic basketball. I'd imagine that them being good in basketball would be more valuable to them than hockey after all.
Travis became an Italian citizen. Becky Hammon became a Russian citizen after playing pro over there.
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It's a bit curious that they haven't tried a similar approach with Olympic basketball. I'd imagine that them being good in basketball would be more valuable to them than hockey after all.
I think the culture around basketball is a bit different there. I think they want to become a homegrown power. The hockey thing is more for the Olympics and them hosting than anything IMO, cause they've never been good or made an effort like this.
But basketball, even with the CBA, they are trying to walk the line between bringing in Americans to sell tickets and wow people with 50 point performances and developing internally a true basketball culture and program. I think they are legit playing the long game with basketball and think they can become a power organically.
Travis became an Italian citizen. Becky Hammon became a Russian citizen after playing pro over there.
I'm assuming he meant China specifically. Cause the rosters of Eastern European countries are littered with lesser American basketball players who have been given citizenship for FIBA tourneys, much less the Olympics. Some never even played domestically in the country they represent
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Travis became an Italian citizen. Becky Hammon became a Russian citizen after playing pro over there.
I was more talking about China in particular. But yes Italy's laws are pretty clear that it's drop of blood as long as nobody has renounced their citizenship and the immigrant ancestor was not naturalized to a new country prior to the first generation US citizen's birth. So im sure he was actually eligible given almost nobody filed official paper work back in the day.
For the record Luke Fischer gained Armenian citizenship to play for their team but their rules are somewhat sketchy on who can be a citizen. Zero ancestry, or living requirement.
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I was more talking about China in particular. But yes Italy's laws are pretty clear that it's drop of blood as long as nobody has renounced their citizenship and the immigrant ancestor was not naturalized to a new country prior to the first generation US citizen's birth. So im sure he was actually eligible given almost nobody filed official paper work back in the day.
For the record Luke Fischer gained Armenian citizenship to play for their team but their rules are somewhat sketchy on who can be a citizen. Zero ancestry, or living requirement.
There was a women's hoops player at my old health club who played pro in Turkey which allowed her to become a Turkish citizen and play for the national team...with one caveat: She had to adopt a Turkish name. So we knew her by her US birth name but in competition, she used her Turkish name.
When I was in Galway for school a number of my classmates got their Irish citizenship. They only needed a grandparent who was from Ireland. Unfortunately for me, I was too far removed to get my citizenship and create the Irish ski team.