MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on January 01, 2022, 01:27:43 PM
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Despite shooting like a JV girls team, creighton was willing us that game in the 2nd half. Have to win that kind of.game in your home.court. Now a 4 game.loaing streak. First time I've really.felt.down in the Shaka era.
Beyond the no foul, there were just no.ideas at all.in the 2nd OT
Awful.
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Yeah that was the basketball equivalent of your punctuation test.
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Agree. I am a huge Shaka backer. But not fouling up 3 with 3 seconds left, combined with a 4 game losing streak really has me giving up on this year. This is not an ncaa tourney team. The non-conference was just a tease.
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Can.already.tell.this.will.be.a.wonderful.thread.
Super.
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Not so sure on this being first test, but he did fail today.
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I'm on the Shaka wagon - but if you can't call out the really awful performances when you see them...
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Awful.
Pathetic. You FOUL UP 3 !!!
Creighton had given them the game. Total failure by Shaka. And he sat there looking befuddled in 2OT.
That looked a lot like a WOJO special.
And now he’s full of excuses on his Radio show.
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What worries me the most is that these aren't the mistakes that an experienced coach should make.
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What worries me the most is that these aren't the mistakes that an experienced coach should make.
Yeah I agree. The not calling a timeout in the second OT felt a bit like the response of a coach who didn’t haven’t the answers. Not great.
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What worries me the most is that these aren't the mistakes that an experienced coach should make.
Bingoooo.
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Yup!
Anyone who thinks this team is bad is wrong. They are bad at some things, yes, but they are capable of beating anyone and they have showed that time and time again this year. They just can't finish important games.
That is usually coaching and was most definitely coaching today.
Not sure how to fix it, but that's not my job. Thankfully!
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Agree. I am a huge Shaka backer. But not fouling up 3 with 3 seconds left, combined with a 4 game losing streak really has me giving up on this year. This is not an ncaa tourney team. The non-conference was just a tease.
Regression to the mean. The end of the Illinois and Kansas State games went our way. Today didn't.
Unfortunately this team is proving to be mediocre, but I can't say I'm surprised. My expectations for this year were always low.
If next year is going to be better, Shaka needs to find some stud transfers.
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I guess maybe the team isn’t bad. But they aren’t good. How many players on the roster are there that you think, “he really needs 30+MPG in the Big East?” I count one. And one that will grow into that type of player.
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If O’Connell misses that shot, the narrative is “boy Shaka is so gutsy - trusting his team to play defense is such a great sign.”
It’s the low hanging fruit to call him out for that decision which really amounts to a coin flip. Not calling a timeout when there were a couple really poor shots in a row in OT is the much bigger mistake.
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When Creighton went zone, MU stood still and didn't adjust. Calling TO to set up zone offense may have helped, but shouldn't be necessary.
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If O’Connell misses that shot, the narrative is “boy Shaka is so gutsy - trusting his team to play defense is such a great sign.”
It’s the low hanging fruit to call him out for that decision which really amounts to a coin flip. Not calling a timeout when there were a couple really poor shots in a row in OT is the much bigger mistake.
Not from me. I would have said he dodged a bullet letting a guy get that shot off when it could have been avoided.
As I said in the game thread, I don’t think it’s as simple as “Foul up by 3” all the time because it depends so much on the specifics of time, ball position, etc. But an opponent inbounding with 3 seconds left is a situation where I think you have to foul.
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When Creighton went zone, MU stood still and didn't adjust. Calling TO to set up zone offense may have helped, but shouldn't be necessary.
Well, I agree it shouldn't be necessary because the coach has his team ready to adjust on the fly. But apparently the coach didn't have them ready, so we needed a TO. Either way, it's on Shaka. That's why he gets the big bucks.
If O’Connell misses that shot, the narrative is “boy Shaka is so gutsy - trusting his team to play defense is such a great sign.”
It’s the low hanging fruit to call him out for that decision which really amounts to a coin flip. Not calling a timeout when there were a couple really poor shots in a row in OT is the much bigger mistake.
Reasonable.
Regression to the mean. The end of the Illinois and Kansas State games went our way. Today didn't.
Unfortunately this team is proving to be mediocre, but I can't say I'm surprised. My expectations for this year were always low.
If next year is going to be better, Shaka needs to find some stud transfers.
Also reasonable.
Look, Morsell is not a 20+ ppg scorer; Kuath is not an impact player; we have a bunch of role players; we need upgrades everywhere. Shaka needs to recruit better, both high schoolers and transfers. So far IMHO that is the most valid overarching criticism of him.
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You absolutely foul up three with 2.7 seconds left. Not only to prevent the tie…..but I said at the time, this team needs to win it now because they won’t win it in 2OT. When that team walked off the floor after the first OT you could see they didn’t have it and no way they could win it.
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Unfriggin real. I couldn't see or follow the game. Are you telling me that we had a 3 pt lead with 2.7 secs left and DIDN’T FOUL!!!????? Were they going the length of the court? Regardless, that CANNOT HAPPEN. EVER. You have got to be freaking kidding me!!! WTH did Shaka say at the presser? This is absolutely crushing and beyond belief. No excuse for that mistake. ZERO. This is a devastating loss and at HOME again. I really hope we can recover.
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Unfriggin real. I couldn't see or follow the game. Are you telling me that we had a 3 pt lead with 2.7 secs left and DIDN’T FOUL!!!????? Were they going the length of the court? Regardless, that CANNOT HAPPEN. EVER. You have got to be freaking kidding me!!! WTH did Shaka say at the presser? This is absolutely crushing and beyond belief. No excuse for that mistake. ZERO. This is a devastating loss and at HOME again. I really hope we can recover.
They announced after the game they were ending the program and rescinding all scholarships. Shaka was also arrested
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Unfriggin real. I couldn't see or follow the game. Are you telling me that we had a 3 pt lead with 2.7 secs left and DIDN’T FOUL!!!????? Were they going the length of the court? Regardless, that CANNOT HAPPEN. EVER. You have got to be freaking kidding me!!! WTH did Shaka say at the presser? This is absolutely crushing and beyond belief. No excuse for that mistake. ZERO. This is a devastating loss and at HOME again. I really hope we can recover.
It's just a basketball game, dude.
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Unfriggin real. I couldn't see or follow the game. Are you telling me that we had a 3 pt lead with 2.7 secs left and DIDN’T FOUL!!!????? Were they going the length of the court? Regardless, that CANNOT HAPPEN. EVER. You have got to be freaking kidding me. WTH did Shaka say at the presser? This is absolutely crushing and beyond belief. No excuse for that mistake. ZERO. This is a devastating loss and at HOME again. I really hope we can recover.
They were inbounding from their front court on the sideline in front of their bench.
To me it would have been easy to aggressively attack whoever was going to receive the inbound pass and foul before he could catch the ball and get into a shooting motion.
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He said he is a coach who fouls up 3 with 6 seconds in a live ball situation.
He said he didn’t trust his guys to properly foul in that situation.
Again, I believe that allowing a tie and forcing a 2OT was certain death.
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They announced after the game they were ending the program and rescinding all scholarships. Shaka was also arrested
This is a serious blunder Uncle R. Unless I'm missing something there's really no other way to see it. 2.7??
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This is a serious blunder Uncle. Unless I'm missing something there's really no other way to see it. 2.7??
That’s why the shut the program down. No way they recover. RIP
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He said he didn’t trust his guys to properly foul in that situation.
Bullcrap! Character revealed.
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That’s why the shut the program down. No way they recover. RIP
Bad news is that they are shutting down the University because of this. The good news is they are disbursing the endowment to all alumni.
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He said he didn’t trust his guys to properly foul in that situation.
Please tell me he didn’t actually say this
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Bad news is that they are shutting down the University because of this. The good news is they are disbursing the endowment to all alumni.
Payments available at The Harp
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Please tell me he didn’t actually say this
He did.
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He did.
Yikes that’s really bad
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Losing sucks.
Losing what was essentially a W sucks more.
BS in the presser after blowing a won game sucks even more than that.
But the things that sucks even more than all those things added together is that I’m getting Wojo vibes.
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Yes ... he said he ( basically) did not trust his players. Was “ afraid “ Creighton would get 3 FTs ... also made other excuses.
And ... yes ... very WOJO like
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Jack Nicholson nodding gif
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Don’t worry about the presser. It’s just saying stuff.
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Yikes that’s really bad
I don’t think that’s so bad to say. The whistle generally went Creighton's way..including the play that preceded that possession. One ref called a charge on the CU player - the ref closest to the play. They apparently went to replay to assess who touched the ball last? (I was at the game.)
Offfensive players are immediately coached to get into the shooting motion on contact to put the ref in a position to potentially make a call.
However once O’Connell put the ball on the floor to dribble..you 100% should have coached that moment as a must foul.
Sucks the kid hit a tough shot and we didn’t foul once he dribbled.
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Uncle Rico, I don't want to get in the middle of how or why MU lost the game. I just have to say that your post about what was done to the program and Shaka after the game had me laughing long and hard. I've been an avid follower of the program well over 50 years, so any loss is not to be taken lightly. But that post is an instant classic on many levels. Thanks for putting things in perspective.
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SHAKE NOT SMART. To foul on the catch was the obvious play with 3 seconds left. Just stupid not to. He threw away a won game. a game they needed to win. hang this one on Shaka's shoulders. That said I still believe the proof of this team is what they do against De Paul, Butler , Georgetown and possibly St. Johns. I always figured MU to finish 9-11 in conference 0-6 against the best and 5-1 against the worst and some sort of split with the middle. Smart never replaced Garcia with an another bid he left that scholy in his pocket. This team isn't ready to win but plays hard and could be dangerous in the second half of the season. This may have been the win the team needed to turn the corner but it didn't happen. need to finish at the rim ,make more 3's. pretty happy with the defense overall.
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Not so sure on this being first test, but he did fail today.
He absolutely failed today. Thoroughly outcoached by McDermott. Creighton has shooters that can make 3's. We dont. Excuses do not wash after half a season. Shaka Kahn better step it up.
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SHAKE NOT SMART.
LOL
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He absolutely failed today. Thoroughly outcoached by McDermott. Creighton has shooters that can make 3's. We dont. Excuses do not wash after half a season. Shaka Kahn better step it up.
If you ignore the fact that Creighton shoots the 3 worse than MU does on the year, you’re right.
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If you ignore the fact that Creighton shoots the 3 worse than MU does on the year, you’re right.
Willie isn’t a “facts” guy
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That was Wojo-esque end of game management.
Shaka better hope his team improves their shooting or brings in way better talent next year or they will stay in the BR basement for the foreseeable future.
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He absolutely failed today. Thoroughly outcoached by McDermott. Creighton has shooters that can make 3's. We dont. Excuses do not wash after half a season. Shaka Kahn better step it up.
You do realize you just wrote Creighton has shooters that can make 3’s. We don’t.
Only so much a coach can do..recruiting will be important. Team has heart and that’s a reflection of the coach. Shaka failed today, yet his team shows no quit and nearly stole a game in which Justin played terribly offensively.
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Here is word-for-word exactly what Shaka Smart said at his postgame presser about the no-foul-up-3 situation:
We normally, when there's 6 seconds or less, do. It was a unique situation with the ball being on the side there. What we didn't want to happen was for them to throw it in and us to go foul and then (O'Connell) to get into the shooting motion.
Obviously, when you watch the play back, you certainly would wanna do something different -- either really, really play a lot more aggressively, or foul. I've unfortunately seen it work out the wrong way both ways, and I think for us, regardless of what we're doing, it's about executing it and finding a way.
And I think it's really important not to ever encapsulate a game in one play. Certainly that one sticks out because we had a 3-point lead with 3 seconds left.
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That was Wojo-esque end of game management.
Shaka better hope his team improves their shooting or brings in way better talent next year or they will stay in the BR basement for the foreseeable future.
Wojo forgot the score. Shaka flipped a coin and bet on his guys. Get real.
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He said he is a coach who fouls up 3 with 6 seconds in a live ball situation.
He said he didn’t trust his guys to properly foul in that situation.
Again, I believe that allowing a tie and forcing a 2OT was certain death.
He never used the word trust, he did not say "he didn’t trust his guys to properly foul in that situation."
blatant mischaracterization
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They announced after the game they were ending the program and rescinding all scholarships. Shaka was also arrested
What's incredible is that Shaka wasn't even granted bail. "You can just rot in there," said the judge, "but at least you'll be safe from all the crime in the area around The Al."
That’s why the shut the program down. No way they recover. RIP
Actually, Unk, people are saying that Wojo has reached out to Marquette so he can pull a Bud Grant/Joe Gibbs/Mack Brown/Dave Leitao and lead our heroes back to greatness. We're saved!
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Team has heart that for sure. That might get them 4 wins in the BE? Shaka better figure out how to get more talent into the program. Or figure out how to make them shoot better.
You do realize you just wrote Creighton has shooters that can make 3’s. We don’t.
Only so much a coach can do..recruiting will be important. Team has heart and that’s a reflection of the coach. Shaka failed today, yet his team shows no quit and nearly stole a game in which Justin played terribly offensively.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TIF15sy1VY
Shaka in his own words.
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Team has heart that for sure. That might get them 4 wins in the BE? Shaka better figure out how to get more talent into the program. Or figure out how to make them shoot better.
We’ve played probably the 2nd, 3rd and 5th best teams in the BE and have been in every game. We’ve been down a starter in two of those games.
Disappointing result today and Shaka failed with end of game strategy, but MU is a decent team.
Unfortunately they now have probably three must win games in a row. Probably have to sweep DP, GU, and BUT to have a shot to get to 10 conference wins. And I don’t think they will do that. Still encouraged about the future but it’s been a frustrating two weeks.
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Why was this Shaka's "first" test?
Did all the decisions he made in the first 13 games not count?
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The comments we were referring to were made with Homer, not the presser.
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Wojo forgot the score. Shaka flipped a coin and bet on his guys. Get real.
1. It's not a coin flip. That implies that the chances of a tie game in that scenario are equal, regardless of strategy. That's not true.
2. His job isn't to bet on his guys (whatever that's supposed to mean). His job is to put his guys in the best position to succeed. That didn't happen.
It's OK to say Shaka made a mistake. He's not infallible. It's not his first and won't be his last. It won't kill you to admit this or make you any less of a fan. I promise.
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Shaka fxxked up, not sure what the debate is.
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1. It's not a coin flip. That implies that the chances of a tie game in that scenario are equal, regardless of strategy. That's not true.
2. His job isn't to bet on his guys (whatever that's supposed to mean). His job is to put his guys in the best position to succeed. That didn't happen.
It's OK to say Shaka made a mistake. He's not infallible. It's not his first and won't be his last. It won't kill you to admit this or make you any less of a fan. I promise.
True. And even if he bet on the coin flip, that defensive set where Oso got isolated on the shooter while OMax and others protected the paint was even worse. Right out of a time out.
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Wojo forgot the score. Shaka flipped a coin and bet on his guys. Get real.
Shaka choose to not foul up 3 with with 3.3 seconds left. It was a mistake. It was a mistake if Creighton missed the 3.
Own it, learn, move on.
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While I am a Shaka guy, I find any comparison to Wojo or the Wojo era beyond comical. In addition, talking about lack of recruiting and not having talent is equally comical to me. As we sit here today, I would bet a very large sum of money that over the next handful of years that this program will have Buzz like, or better, success. Anyone that thinks he cannot get players is delusional. Hey, I am very pissed off we lost today and was very pissed off with the UConn loss. Some of the posts have made laugh and that has taken 1% of the sting out of the loss.
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True. And even if he bet on the coin flip, that defensive set where Oso got isolated on the shooter while OMax and others protected the paint was even worse. Right out of a time out.
Sucks he made the shot but look at the picture. It’s a well guarded, deep off balance three. Hats off to him and we’ll defended from MU’s standpoint.
You can nitpick to try and seem like you know what you’re talking about, but I like our chances with our length defending a three at the end of the game in that situation. (http://file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/53/03/BF5FB29E-B568-4203-AD6A-003EC646D83B/IMG_0865.PNG)
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It wasn’t that difficult a shot. He had a wide open look! Sure he had to dribble to get himself open, but it wasn’t some crazy-a$$ shot. It was a shot that shooters make.
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It wasn’t that difficult a shot. He had a wide open look! Sure he had to dribble to get himself open, but it wasn’t some crazy-a$$ shot. It was a shot that shooters make.
This. We were right behind the shooter with a great view. Couldn’t believe how good of a look he got
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Looking at the stats -12 on free throws attempts at home never helps. Did we take bad shots or was it just brick city?
Obviously Lewis had a brutal shooting game. Imo he can't just be a jump shooter if that's what he did today
It may be as simple as we can't make shots but I noticed we didn't take a ton of trees today. Any thoughts on Ellis playing more? The fact that we seemingly threw away a W with our guards and Lewis shooting so poorly seems like a positive? I feel like our guards not being able to attack the paint is one of our ore significant issues.
All coaches make mistakes, it happens to the best of them. But this one really hurts and gives us a smaller margin for error moving forward.
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The loss was on Shaka for the defensive play he called.
The press conference was not a good look for him either.
Wojo’s teams would have (hyperbole alert)likely never come back like this team did. Shaka gets credit for that.
At this point in the season and Shaka’s tenure, I’ll chalk it up to “part of the process”. We knew this would be a journey. Let it play out.
We should have won today.
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Looking at the stats -12 on free throws attempts at home never helps. Did we take bad shots or was it just brick city? V
Obviously Lewis had a brutal shooting game. Imo he can't just be a jump shooter if that's what he did today
It may be as simple as we can't make shots but I noticed we didn't take a ton of trees today. Any thoughts on Ellis playing more? The fact that we seemingly threw away a W with our guards and Lewis shooting so poorly seems like a positive? I feel like our guards not being able to attack the paint is one of our ore significant issues.
All coaches make mistakes, it happens to the best of them. But this one really hurts and gives us a smaller margin for error moving forward.
Lewis took some weird out of the flow shots. I thought the rest of the team took *mostly* good shots.
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Panda - come on !?!
The three was not well defended, as noted by others it was a clean look/ not far behind the line. It’s a shot that will be made 35 to 40% of the time.
Shaka F’d up. Period. Threw away a win.
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Yep - wide open. Basically a lay up.
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Lewis took some weird out of the flow shots. I thought the rest of the team took *mostly* good shots.
We have to get to the FT line more. 7 total? How do we change that stat?
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While I am a Shaka guy, I find any comparison to Wojo or the Wojo era beyond comical. In addition, talking about lack of recruiting and not having talent is equally comical to me. As we sit here today, I would bet a very large sum of money that over the next handful of years that this program will have Buzz like, or better, success. Anyone that thinks he cannot get players is delusional. Hey, I am very pissed off we lost today and was very pissed off with the UConn loss. Some of the posts have made laugh and that has taken 1% of the sting out of the loss.
When do you think the success starts? I think Shaka’s first 2 years will be much closer to Wojo than Buzz.
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Not so sure on this being first test, but he did fail today.
Goose
Agree. Shaka made a huge blunder by not calling for a foul on the in ball pass down 3 with 3 seconds to play. He lost the game. I feel bad for the players who fought so hard to win. It was very disappointing. Starting to wonder about his coaching and game management.
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Yep - wide open. Basically a lay up.
The defender is coming from the side (back and to the left, back and to the left). He had a clear look at the basket.
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We have to get to the FT line more. 7 total? How do we change that stat?
Haveta grow a few pairs, aina?
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While I am a Shaka guy, I find any comparison to Wojo or the Wojo era beyond comical. In addition, talking about lack of recruiting and not having talent is equally comical to me. As we sit here today, I would bet a very large sum of money that over the next handful of years that this program will have Buzz like, or better, success. Anyone that thinks he cannot get players is delusional. Hey, I am very pissed off we lost today and was very pissed off with the UConn loss. Some of the posts have made laugh and that has taken 1% of the sting out of the loss.
Buzz level success?
Buzz went to 5 NCAA Tournaments in 6 years.
3 Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a Big East Title.
Where do I sign up to make this bet? NO CHANCE!
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Buzz level success?
Buzz went to 5 NCAA Tournaments in 6 years.
3 Sweet 16s, an Elite 8, and a Big East Title.
Where do I sign up to make this bet? NO CHANCE!
High bar for sure
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Yep - wide open. Basically a lay up.
He has no one in front of him, with shoulders square and a decent look at the basket. Creighton could not have asked for much better than that.
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He has no one in front of him, with shoulders square and a decent look at the basket. Creighton could not have asked for much better than that.
Yep - a closely guarded, off the dribble fade away 30 footer is a great look.
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Going to stop reading/following these threads for my own sanity. Funny how the "coaches" here have all the answers and know everything. I'll bet they couldn't undergo such scrutiny by the public at their own jobs.
Hey, this team is young, learning and fun watching. Some recently past teams appeared dead in the water. We've been in games and still need to learn to "finish." Both, games and on trips down the floor. We have collectively left tons of points on the floor in the way of I'll advised, chucked threes and blown bunnies within two feet of the basket but we keep playing at both ends of the floor. No NBA wanna bees or big ego guys on this squad as far as I see. A couple of those missed bunnies or made 2s instead of missed threes could have won us a couple more games.
Today's team appears to have an upside, desire to improve and excitement about them... The coach doesn't shoot, pass or rebound. I like what I've seen so far and am NOT discouraged about our position or future. Feel much better than with any of Wojo's teams at this point. I'm not giving up, not even an alumni but season ticket holder, no less. And POSITIVE fan!!! Giving up on YOU guys here, not the team or coach.
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Panda ... u think that was a 30 footer ?
LOLLLLL ... it’s a clean look from just beyond the arc. Was he wide open ? No, but it’s a shot that’s made 35 % (?) of the time
And ... BUZZ level success?? No Chance. None. I’m happy to wager.
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Yep - a closely guarded, off the dribble fade away 30 footer is a great look.
https://twitter.com/ejsilvaBB/status/1477358427202633730?s=20
He most definitely was NOT fading away. He was moving to the side, but again, no one in front with shoulders square is definitely a good look given the situation.
And the more I look at that, the more maddening it is. Osa is standing right there, and he just dribbles around him. Just grab him!!!
EDIT: Put it this way - if McDermott knew that was the look he would be getting, he would have been thrilled.
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Right !!
Terrible!!! Oso had two chances to grab him. Take the damn foul and take your chances
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I agree that this one is on the coach, and it’s ok to say that.
If Shaka calls a foul on that inbounds play, what are the odds MU wins that game?
I would put it at upwards of 97% if I had to make a guess.
Of course there could be an immediate toss to the basket for 3 free throws, but that’s still no guarantee all three are made. There could be a first make and then a miss with a tip back, or there could be two males and a steal on the inbounds.
Definitely some ways to still blow the three point lead but again I’d say you’re looking at a very high likelihood of victory if you call a foul there
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Der kould also bea a female orr a shemale, hey?
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Right !!
Terrible!!! Oso had two chances to grab him. Take the damn foul and take your chances
Or let him shoot a deep guarded three and take your chances.
Foul and you are giving one of the best offensive rebounders in the country in kalkbrenner a chance to win the game.
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It wasn't unguarded. He made a shot. Kudos.
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It wasn't unguarded. He made a shot. Kudos.
Who is saying he was unguarded? It was a great look given the situation. And he made MU pay for it.
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Who is saying he was unguarded? It was a great look given the situation. And he made MU pay for it.
It’s a low percentage shot no matter what situation it is.
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It’s a low percentage shot no matter what situation it is.
It's much higher percentage than no shot at all.
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Did Davidson choke?
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It's much higher percentage than no shot at all.
What about an offensive rebound and a shot half a foot from the basket ? What are the percentages on that?
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It’s a low percentage shot no matter what situation it is.
Why do you keep defending a defense that didn’t actually work?
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What about an offensive rebound and a shot half a foot from the basket ? What are the percentages on that?
Much slimmer than that three pointer. Not even close.
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How did Creighton get a better look at the game tying shot than MU did trying to win in regulation with more than double the time on the clock?
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Why do you keep defending a defense that didn’t actually work?
I guess I’ll take my chances on a career 35% 3 point shooter shooting a closely guarded deep three.
Sometimes coaches make the right decision and it doesn’t work out.
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What about an offensive rebound and a shot half a foot from the basket ? What are the percentages on that?
Way lower.
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I guess I’ll take my chances on a career 35% 3 point shooter shooting a closely guarded deep three.
Sometimes coaches make the right decision and it doesn’t work out.
The math says you're woefully wrong. Just like Shaka was.
The odds of 1. Making the first free throw, 2. Successfully missing the second but still catching rim 3 Getting an offensive rebound and 4. Hitting a shot off the rebound in roughly 1.5 seconds are tiny compared to hitting a three point shot with no one in your face.
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The math says you're woefully wrong. Just like Shaka was.
The odds of 1. Making the first free throw, 2. Successfully missing the second but still catching rim 3 Getting an offensive rebound and 4. Hitting a shot off the rebound in roughly 1.5 seconds are tiny compared to hitting a three point shot with no one in your face.
That’s not math genius. Those are just statements.
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That’s not math genius. Those are just statements.
Make first free throw: 80%
Miss second and hit rim: 100%
Get offensive rebound: 30%
Make the basket: 75%
The chance of all of those occurring is only 18%. I think some of those percentages are generous too, but they are about what oconnell (free throw) and kalkbrenner (put back) shoot.
It was the wrong call to not foul and also some poor execution on MUs part (multiple guys inside arc)
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Make first free throw: 80%
Miss second and hit rim: 100%
Get offensive rebound: 30%
Make the basket: 75%
The chance of all of those occurring is only 18%. I think some of those percentages are generous too, but they are about what oconnell (free throw) and kalkbrenner (put back) shoot.
It was the wrong call to not foul and also some poor execution on MUs part (multiple guys inside arc)
Looks like you did a ton of research coming up with those percentages.
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Panda, you’ve picked a strange hill to die on. If you think it really was a long, fadeaway 3, you’re delusional. But you for some reason have a strong opinion here. It’s true what you said that the odds of making/missing were on MU’s side but Pakuni hit the nail on the head on the odds issue.
Shaka ain’t gonna be perfect. Face it.
We’ve already seen some posts about matching his O to his personnel, now we have a lot of people questioning his game coaching. And I’m almost forgetting the posts about how the “press” has led to many easy hoops for MU opponents.
I’m still a Shaka fan. I’m hoping today was a hiccup. But I’m notoriously impatient. So I’ll keep rooting and see how things go. Still feel crappy about how hard our guys played only to have a game that was all but won peed away.
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Yep - wide open. Basically a lay up.
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That’s not math genius. Those are just statements.
Here's your math:
About 10 years ago, the Harvard (University) Sports Analysis Collective reviewed every game from the 2009-10 season for situations in which a team trailing by three had possession at the end of the game. They found 443 such instances.
Of those 443, they found 52 instances in which the leading team fouled to send the other team to the line. Of those 52, the shooting team was able to get an offensive rebound and score only three times, i.e. about 5.7 percent of the time.
Is it your belief that O'Connell had less than 5.7 percent chance of making that basket?
https://deadspin.com/up-three-time-winding-down-do-you-foul-harvard-smart-5621868
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Or let him shoot a deep guarded three and take your chances.
Foul and you are giving one of the best offensive rebounders in the country in kalkbrenner a chance to win the game.
How could he win the game in your situation?
MU up 3. Foul on the dribble. 2 shots. Make the first. Miss the 2nd…..your boy gets the rebound, scores and ties the game.
Are you suggesting we then would foul him and he would get and 1?
Maybe at that point Shaka gets pissed and gets a T and we lose by 5. Anything can happen I guess.
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How could he win the game in your situation?
MU up 3. Foul on the dribble. 2 shots. Make the first. Miss the 2nd…..your boy gets the rebound, scores and ties the game.
Are you suggesting we then would foul him and he would get and 1?
Maybe at that point Shaka gets pissed and gets a T and we lose by 5. Anything can happen I guess.
Tip and 1 on a great offensive rebounder and scorer around the rim is a real possibility.
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Tip and 1 on a great offensive rebounder and scorer around the rim is a real possibility.
Now your reaching.
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Now your reaching.
Reaching around.
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Now your reaching.
Is a tip put back and foul really that out of the question?
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Is a tip put back and foul really that out of the question?
Yes…..it is a huge stretch.
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Yes…..it is a huge stretch.
Why
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How often has a team won a game outright being down 3 with 3 seconds remaining.
It is extremely rare…….or a stretch for you to use as a plausible outcome.
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How often has a team won a game outright being down 3 with 3 seconds remaining.
It is extremely rare…….or a stretch for you to use as a plausible outcome.
It’s a possibility. Saying it’s rare doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be taken into consideration.
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It’s a possibility. Saying it’s rare doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be taken into consideration.
See ankle sprain. It’s a possibility. You should consider that you could sprain your ankle when you wake up n the am. We should consider our first step…..because it’s happened. But keep it up.
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How often has a team won a game outright being down 3 with 3 seconds remaining.
It is extremely rare…….or a stretch for you to use as a plausible outcome.
They didn't win the game...they sent it into OT.
Twice.
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Why do you keep defending a defense that didn’t actually work?
It is not a low percentage shot with the game on the line and the wrong guys on you and an advantageous matchup. Ask Demar Derozan the last two games.
Shot like that is not low percentages for anyone who plays basketball and is a jump shooter if you do not have the right guys flying at you and in position and on the floor.
Any shot that goes in the air at the end of regulation like that is a good 50/50 shot... with the defensive set up that they had.
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Up 3? Seconds remain? Not that difficult...don’t let then opponent shoot a 3. Double the main shooter. Man up the others. Leave the inbounds guy open...and ok to give up a lay-up. Game over.
This loss is quite disconcerting. Oh, and one more thing...Coach, it’s ok to light-up a ref. You’ve inherited a bad program at this point. Your current team is not good. Getting T’d isn’t necessarily a bad thing as you try to lay the groundwork to better days.
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Why would Shaka light up the refs? Were there a series of bad calls? Getting Td for the sake of getting Td yesterday means that game doesn't even go to overtime.
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Why would Shaka light up the refs? Were there a series of bad calls? Getting Td for the sake of getting Td yesterday means that game doesn't even go to overtime.
try re-reading. Did I say yesterday? Dang you love to argue for the sake of it. I’m talking about laying groundwork. This coach strikes me as soft.
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try re-reading. Did I say yesterday? Dang you love to argue for the sake of it. I’m talking about laying groundwork. This coach strikes me as soft.
So if a coach doesn't get Td up, that strikes you as "soft?" What "groundwork" does that lay exactly?
And sorry, but if you are posting in a topic about yesterday's game, and are actually writing about a play in yesterday's game, my assumption will be that you are talking about yesterday's game. Especially when it is in the same damn paragraph. Your inability to communicate clearly is on you.
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The most egregious officiating error was missing the push off by Nembhard, and then calling Lewis for landing on him after he blocked the shot.
If Shaka would have gotten a T, and handed CU two more freebies and the ball we'd all be screaming about it.
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I think he’s failed a few of them, tbh.
But this team still just sucks at scoring. Had many opportunities in the first OT to pull away and couldn’t do it. Couldn’t even get a shot off to end Regulation, too. Team just isn’t very good.
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J5
Just curious, how did you expect this team to perform in regard to record this year?
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Now your reaching.
I agree....common sense tells me that even an 80% FT shooter needs to make the first in a pressure situation. (Chances are he makes it).
2ndly, the shooter needs to bank it off the rim hard enough to almost perfection where the ball comes off the rim to give Creighton a realistic chance to get the rebound (I'd say 40% at best)
3rdly, the rebounder then needs to get a shot off in 3 seconds (probably not a high percentage shot)
4thly, then needs to actually make the shot
In Shaka's case, he claims they normally do foul with 6 seconds or less but because it was side-out, that he didn't want the catch and shoot foul to occur. I like Shaka and will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I doubt it.
You definitely need to have the confidence in your team that when the game is on the line that you properly box out on a missed FT. Considering we would have inside position, I like our chances if Oso, Lewis, Kuath with Morsell and O-Max looking to rebound.
Agree or disagree, I needed to vent and now moving on to Providence.
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The most egregious officiating error was missing the push off by Nembhard, and then calling Lewis for landing on him after he blocked the shot.
If Shaka would have gotten a T, and handed CU two more freebies and the ball we'd all be screaming about it.
Plus, I think Shaka does a pretty good job working the refs without flying off the handle.
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I agree....common sense tells me that even an 80% FT shooter needs to make the first in a pressure situation. (Chances are he makes it).
2ndly, the shooter needs to bank it off the rim hard enough to almost perfection where the ball comes off the rim to give Creighton a realistic chance to get the rebound (I'd say 40% at best)
3rdly, the rebounder then needs to get a shot off in 3 seconds (probably not a high percentage shot)
4thly, then needs to actually make the shot
In Shaka's case, he claims they normally do foul with 6 seconds or less but because it was side-out, that he didn't want the catch and shoot foul to occur. I like Shaka and will give him the benefit of the doubt, but I doubt it.
You definitely need to have the confidence in your team that when the game is on the line that you properly box out on a missed FT. Considering we would have inside position, I like our chances if Oso, Lewis, Kuath with Morsell and O-Max looking to rebound.
Agree or disagree, I needed to vent and now moving on to Providence.
Somewhat of an aside, missing a free throw is not very difficult and if the coaches practice specific end of game situations can be very well prepared for.
You don’t hammer it off the backboard and pray it glances the rim (sound familiars because Wojo teams did it a couple times. No surprise). You take a normal free throw but take a half step to the left or right on the line. Load up on that side and have everyone crash the glass on that side of the hoop.
It’s actually very straight forward to plan for.
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Somewhat of an aside, missing a free throw is not very difficult and if the coaches practice specific end of game situations can be very well prepared for.
You don’t hammer it off the backboard and pray it glances the rim (sound familiars because Wojo teams did it a couple times. No surprise). You take a normal free throw but take a half step to the left or right on the line. Load up on that side and have everyone crash the glass on that side of the hoop.
It’s actually very straight forward to plan for.
You make good points; however a normal FT miss, you definitely should be able to box out and get the rebound let alone have them miss a tough tip. Respectively, I think you make my point even greater that a normal missed FT needs to have the confidence of your coach that you box out and get the rebound. Of course, it may not happen just like someone hitting a 3-ball to tie. Pick your poison, but I like my chances of getting that rebound and if not, the guy still having to make the shot.
Looking forward to Tuesday to see how this team responds. I expect a much more intensive unit than how they came out yesterday.
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You make good points; however a normal FT miss, you definitely should be able to box out and get the rebound let alone have them miss a tough tip. Respectively, I think you make my point even greater that a normal missed FT needs to have the confidence of your coach that you box out and get the rebound. Of course, it may not happen just like someone hitting a 3-ball to tie. Pick your poison, but I like my chances of getting that rebound and if not, the guy still having to make the shot.
Looking forward to Tuesday to see how this team responds. I expect a much more intensive unit than how they came out yesterday.
Lol. That is something they practice but not a straight-forward, somewhat guarded three point shot?
Your defense of this is getting weaker by the post.
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You make good points; however a normal FT miss, you definitely should be able to box out and get the rebound let alone have them miss a tough tip. Respectively, I think you make my point even greater that a normal missed FT needs to have the confidence of your coach that you box out and get the rebound. Of course, it may not happen just like someone hitting a 3-ball to tie. Pick your poison, but I like my chances of getting that rebound and if not, the guy still having to make the shot.
Looking forward to Tuesday to see how this team responds. I expect a much more intensive unit than how they came out yesterday.
It’s a pick your poison. I just like to play defense knowing your opponent has to take a deep three.
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Lol. That is something they practice but not a straight-forward, somewhat guarded three point shot?
Your defense of this is getting weaker by the post.
Unless practices are only three minutes long, a team can practice both.
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Shaka is going to make more poor in-game decisions. All coaches do. And some will lead us to conclude that cost Marquette the game. I’m willing to bet, in the long-run, his good decisions will far outweigh his bad decisions during games.
Yesterday was a bad decision. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other but felt given the comeback by the team yesterday, he should have fouled there up 3.
If you’ve given up on the process already, there’s the door. My hunch is, the anger vented yesterday and this morning means you haven’t given up on the process. Relax and have a grape soda. This team overachieved early and have regressed to the mean. But I wouldn’t throw away the process over tough results.
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Shaka is going to make more poor in-game decisions. All coaches do. And some will lead us to conclude that cost Marquette the game. I’m willing to bet, in the long-run, his good decisions will far outweigh his bad decisions during games.
Yesterday was a bad decision. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other but felt given the comeback by the team yesterday, he should have fouled there up 3.
If you’ve given up on the process already, there’s the door. My hunch is, the anger vented yesterday and this morning means you haven’t given up on the process. Relax and have a grape soda. This team overachieved early and have regressed to the mean. But I wouldn’t throw away the process over tough results.
You're right about all that, Unk. So much had to go right for this team to be any good this season. We got some breaks early when Illinois and K-State were missing their best players and when West Virginia fell apart and when Darryl Morsell looked more like DeMar DeRosan than a guy who averaged 9 points over 4 seasons at Maryland. Heck, we got some breaks -- and needed 'em -- to beat effen New Hampshire.
Now we're not winning close games against good teams who have experience and/or go-to guys, as we have neither.
Shaka inherited precious little, especially after Garcia and Carton left. My thing going in was, "Will we see progress over the course of the season and beyond?" Well, we're already seeing significant progress with Oso, and with the team fighting and clawing in every game. And then, of course, we need to see some big-time recruiting taking place; that's supposed to be Shaka's calling card.
Like every coach, Shaka isn't and shouldn't be immune from criticism. In-game decisions, seemingly poor preparation, making excuses, not good enough recruiting, whatever, have at it. But those who have already given up on Shaka's vision for the program, or those who were against him before he ever ran a practice ... what the eff? Why even bother being a fan if it makes you so miserable?
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It’s a pick your poison. I just like to play defense knowing your opponent has to take a deep three.
Or you play defense and your opponent gets a great look (not a deep three) from a good shooter and you eventually lose.
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I hope all you "regress to the mean" guys never go to Vegas. "It's been 10 reds in a row - black is due!"
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I hope all you "regress to the mean" guys never go to Vegas. "It's been 10 reds in a row - black is due!"
The top 3 players by minutes have offensive ratings of 95.7, 100.1 and 83.
The team is 86th in KenPom with the 118th offense and 68th defense. This isn’t a tourney team.
The rest of this season for me is about Oso, Tyler, OMax and Stevie. I also want to see Justin become more efficient.
I never expected this team to play in March and as fun as November was, it wasn’t real
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Shaka is going to make more poor in-game decisions. All coaches do. And some will lead us to conclude that cost Marquette the game. I’m willing to bet, in the long-run, his good decisions will far outweigh his bad decisions during games.
Yesterday was a bad decision. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other but felt given the comeback by the team yesterday, he should have fouled there up 3.
If you’ve given up on the process already, there’s the door. My hunch is, the anger vented yesterday and this morning means you haven’t given up on the process. Relax and have a grape soda. This team overachieved early and have regressed to the mean. But I wouldn’t throw away the process over tough results.
I don't think anyone is leaving or should be shown the door. Where did anyone give up on the process other than having a healthy conversation about his decision yesterday. People can be passionate and offer their take of the game as that is probably 90% of the posts on post-game threads.
Those who have season tickets and don't show up should be shown the door. What the heck was that yesterday? New Year's Day game at 11...really? I couldn't believe the no-shows...ridiculous!
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I don't think anyone is leaving or should be shown the door. Where did anyone give up on the process other than having a healthy conversation about his decision yesterday. People can be passionate and offer their take of the game as that is probably 90% of the posts on post-game threads.
Those who have season tickets and don't show up should be shown the door. What the heck was that yesterday? New Year's Day game at 11...really? I couldn't believe the no-shows...ridiculous!
Yeah God forbid people have other things to do during the Holidays!
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If you assume MU goes 0-8 against the top 4 teams Nova, UConn, Seton Hall and Xavier and 5-1 against the bottom 3 teams De Paul, Butler and Georgetown that makes MU 5-9 with providence, St .John and Creighton left to split. 4-2 makes MU 9-11. I'd settle for that if the team grows through the season. This team could be better than that if Lewis, Igadoro and Omax can figure out how to each have good games at the same time. chemistry takes time. Take a breath and enjoy watching kids frow up. There is a lot of season left to grow.
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I don't think anyone is leaving or should be shown the door. Where did anyone give up on the process other than having a healthy conversation about his decision yesterday. People can be passionate and offer their take of the game as that is probably 90% of the posts on post-game threads.
Yep.
It's weird how the mildest of criticisms are often met here with nonsense like "Stop being a fan," "there's the door" or "well, I guess Shaka should go to jail then."
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Yep.
It's weird how the mildest of criticisms are often met here with nonsense like "Stop being a fan," "there's the door" or "well, I guess Shaka should go to jail then."
That’s why I said my hunch was yesterday was just frustration being vented and people really weren’t done with Shaka, except Willie
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Pakuni
My only issue on the overall criticism is that most on here had very low expectations. Based off of the first 14 I would think most would be happy with the performance thus far. If we are worse than most on here expected I am missing something. I never thought we would be world beaters and believed that with an experienced coach we have enough talent to compete in almost every game. In addition, I thought Shaka was worth an extra 4-5 wins this season, mainly due to the guys buying in. For the record, I still feel the same way.
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Pakuni
My only issue on the overall criticism is that most on here had very low expectations. Based off of the first 14 I would think most would be happy with the performance thus far. If we are worse than most on here expected I am missing something. I never thought we would be world beaters and believed that with an experienced coach we have enough talent to compete in almost every game. In addition, I thought Shaka was worth an extra 4-5 wins this season, mainly due to the guys buying in. For the record, I still feel the same way.
I think Shaka is the right guy but not this years team. We probably already booked half the extra wins you referred too.
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With 2.7 seconds left, I think you should foul. I would not like fouling with 5 seconds or more to go.
Assuming the fouled team makes two free throws they have enough time to foul on inbounds to make you have to make two free throws.
The other thing to consider is whether you are at home or away. The home team should have an advantage in overtime.
Wojo got crucified for not fouling with the team up three. He lost on a much more difficult three than the one last night.
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I don’t think anyone is giving up on Shakas vision or the team.
I just think that people are disappointed after a pretty good start.
You can call it overachieving early, which it was, and say that all Marquettes reach equilibrium, which they almost always do.
However, if you asked me before the season if I thought MU would beat Creighton at home I would have said yes. At the very least I would have expected a split in these two home games versus CU and Providence.
Don’t forget that yesterdays game was very ugly for large stretches, MU was down big at home. That ain’t good for a team they should be able to beat at home.
Now, the defensive intensity and the fight in the second half was fantastic, and that’s great. A win woulda bailed out the overall poor performance, but there was no win. So if anything, the last comeback masked some very poor early play.
We all want to see the team improve. December was a brutal stretch, but I haven’t quite seen the improvement I was expecting so far.
A lot of ball to play and I’m definitely not giving up on Shaka or the process, I’m just unfortunately starting to realize that this seasons post season hopes are fading fast
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I don't think anyone is leaving or should be shown the door. Where did anyone give up on the process other than having a healthy conversation about his decision yesterday. People can be passionate and offer their take of the game as that is probably 90% of the posts on post-game threads.
Those who have season tickets and don't show up should be shown the door. What the heck was that yesterday? New Year's Day game at 11...really? I couldn't believe the no-shows...ridiculous!
I actually agree with FBM. People have holiday obligations, and let’s face it, an 11am New Years Day game blows. Not to mention, MU isn’t exactly must-see right now.
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That’s why I said my hunch was yesterday was just frustration being vented and people really weren’t done with Shaka, except Willie
Once again Rico as in most of your posts you don't know what you are snorting
I am not done with Shaka
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I won't debate foul or no-foul in that situation. Fouling on the catch is clearly the right call.
But, IF you do choose not to foul - WHY THE HELL are 3 of our 5 defenders INSIDE the 3 point line. We need 5 guys on the 3 point line or deeper. If they throw it inside the arc - Great! We win!
2 huge blunders - both on Shaka. Wojo never learned, I hope Shaka will.
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People have holiday obligations, and let’s face it, an 11am New Years Day game blows. Not to mention, MU isn’t exactly must-see right now.
People up late on NYE.
Some were just out of town.
Rose Parade was back.
Bowl games.
Snowstorm.
These were all things I heard from people. Stuff happens.
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People up late on NYE.
Some were just out of town.
Rose Parade was back.
Bowl games.
Snowstorm.
These were all things I heard from people. Stuff happens.
I doubt Bowl games and the Rose Parade with distractions, but the others I definitely agree with, especially the early start on NYD. Oh, and the fear or COVID may have played a small factor.
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There's also actual COVID. I know of half a dozen people who would have gone to the game but either had COVID themselves or were in quarantine due to close contact. Lots of family gatherings in the last week.
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I'm still trying to figure out how this was Shaka's "first test."
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I doubt Bowl games and the Rose Parade with distractions, but the others I definitely agree with, especially the early start on NYD. Oh, and the fear or COVID may have played a small factor.
Nothing to doubt. As I said, all things I listed is what I heard from people who did not go or gave their tickets away. Yes, bowl games and the Rose Parade were things I heard. I'm one of those as well. I did go to the MU game, but left early to go home and watch bowl games.
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I'm still trying to figure out how this was Shaka's "first test."
Maybe this wasn't his first test, but the first he failed after passing the tests of Illinois, Ole Miss, and West Virginia.
Though I'd say we should've pulled out UConn as well, maybe Xavier too.
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Maybe this wasn't his first test, but the first he failed after passing the tests of Illinois, Ole Miss, and West Virginia.
Though I'd say we should've pulled out UConn as well, maybe Xavier too.
So ... not his first test, and perhaps not even the first he "failed."
As fans, we always count the games we "shoulda" won but rarely count the ones we "shoulda" lost. I tend to think that if we shoulda won, we woulda won unless the circumstance is crazy -- like when we pulled that one out at Creighton in 2019. We had no business winning that one.
Maybe some folks think this one falls into a similar category, but I don't know. We were down 17 and had lots of chances to lose it (and win it) long before O'Connell ever rose for that 3.
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With 2.7 seconds left, I think you should foul. I would not like fouling with 5 seconds or more to go.
Assuming the fouled team makes two free throws they have enough time to foul on inbounds to make you have to make two free throws.
The other thing to consider is whether you are at home or away. The home team should have an advantage in overtime.
Wojo got crucified for not fouling with the team up three. He lost on a much more difficult three than the one last night.
Xavier ran that same exact play at least once (maybe twice?) to tie or win games earlier that season. He should have known it was coming and then threw Sy under the bus after the game.