MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TallTitan34 on December 21, 2021, 10:33:11 PM
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A young team just battled two of the best teams in conference. (For the crowd that says we aren't a young team because of the senior transfers we are 351 of 358 in experience on KenPom.)
There were dumb passes, stupid shots, horrible fouls, missed bunnies, bad defensive periods, etc. Even with all of this, they managed to stay in the game against better teams until the end. I'd expect many of these things will improve with experience.
If you thought we were going to be a well oiled machine with five true freshman, four transfers in, and a new system, that wasn't very realistic.
The loses suck but they are also great learning experiences against good teams.
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Yep. Always disappointing not to win but this season is all about development. What matters most is how this team is playing come February and March.
Good minutes from O-Max and Joplin tonight. Hope they can build on it.
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(For the crowd that says we aren't a young team because of the senior transfers we are 351 of 358 in experience on KenPom.)
one of those senior transfers couldn't even play tonight! I'm with you, I see plenty reasons to be optimistic. it was especially nice to see prosper gain some confidence on the offensive end. Joplin too. Kolek had a tough time on D tonight, but I feel like that's where Morsell would have made a difference on that end. we're lacking some polish that continued chemistry should solve as they figure out each other's tendencies. if we get that in time this season, we could be one the other side of these close ones.
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A young team just battled two of the best teams in conference. (For the crowd that says we aren't a young team because of the senior transfers we are 351 of 358 in experience on KenPom.)
There were dumb passes, stupid shots, horrible fouls, missed bunnies, bad defensive periods, etc. Even with all of this, they managed to stay in the game against better teams until the end. I'd expect many of these things will improve with experience.
If you thought we were going to be a well oiled machine with five true freshman, four transfers in, and a new system, that wasn't very realistic.
The loses suck but they are also great learning experiences against good teams.
Agreed.
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I gotta say I'm not too optimistic right now. Yes, they fight hard, and that's good, but we have too many players who don't shoot very well and our defense isn't exactly great these days. We don't stack up very well against other Big East rosters so it will be tough to find a lot of BE wins this year.
I hope Shaka can work some magic on the recruiting front or transfer portal - otherwise this rebuild could take awhile.
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I gotta say I'm not too optimistic right now. Yes, they fight hard, and that's good, but we have too many players who don't shoot very well and our defense isn't exactly great these days. We don't stack up very well against other Big East rosters so it will be tough to find a lot of BE wins this year.
I hope Shaka can work some magic on the recruiting front or transfer portal - otherwise this rebuild could take awhile.
I think we need better talent, a better coach and Duke uniforms and we’ll be ok.
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Need Lewis to stick around one more year.
They're not that far away. It's super obvious they're inexperienced and their bodies can't keep up with their heads at times.
They were on the plus end of a few games that swung on a possession of two, and now they've dropped a couple.
I truly don't know what people want to see from them. They've played two of the three best teams in the league right down to the wire. Frustrating that they can't get over the hump, but once they do, who knows, maybe they get hot.
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Also for what it’s worth, they’ve won every game they were supposed to win and won four games they were suppose to lose.
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A young team just battled two of the best teams in conference. (For the crowd that says we aren't a young team because of the senior transfers we are 351 of 358 in experience on KenPom.)
Not gonna rehash it, but Pomeroy's experience number is whack (he counts Lewis, Kolek, OMP and Oso as Fosh with zero experience points). Torvik counts years of actual experience, and has us as 284/358. Still young and inexperienced, just not bottom 10.
Here's the thread where we covered that: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62630.msg1397714#msg1397714
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Not gonna rehash it, but Pomeroy's experience number is whack (he counts Lewis, Kolek, OMP and Oso as Fosh with zero experience points). Torvik counts years of actual experience, and has us as 284/358. Still young and inexperienced, just not bottom 10.
Here's the thread where we covered that: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62630.msg1397714#msg1397714
But wouldn’t he use that same criteria on the other schools as well?
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But wouldn’t he use that same criteria on the other schools as well?
Not every school reclassified their Sophomores back to Freshman like MU did. In fact, MU was the only BE school to do this. Bush league move if you ask me.
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Not every school reclassified their Sophomores back to Freshman like MU did. In fact, MU was the only BE school to do this. Bush league move if you ask me.
I don't know about "bush league," but it's silly and probably intentionally misleading.
I wish the announcers wouldn't give MU what they want by saying the team has 859 freshmen ... because we don't.
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Ah good to know.
Well I’ll still count 284 of 358 as a young team.
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Ah good to know.
Well I’ll still count 284 of 358 as a young team.
Agreed.
I not quite sure why this "9 freshman" thing bothers me so much, but it does :) Character flaw I guess.
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I gotta say I'm not too optimistic right now. Yes, they fight hard, and that's good, but we have too many players who don't shoot very well and our defense isn't exactly great these days. We don't stack up very well against other Big East rosters so it will be tough to find a lot of BE wins this year.
I hope Shaka can work some magic on the recruiting front or transfer portal - otherwise this rebuild could take awhile.
This rebuild will most certainly take a handful of seasons.
Have to respect the fight though.
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Agreed.
I not quite sure why this "9 freshman" thing bothers me so much, but it does :) Character flaw I guess.
How are 10 year freshmen Elliott and Kur counted?
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Agreed.
I not quite sure why this "9 freshman" thing bothers me so much, but it does :) Character flaw I guess.
Completely understand.
On www.muoverload.com I count Kolek, O-Max, Lewis, Oso, etc. as sophomores and Morsell and Kuath as having a Covid year. If Greg were to stay next year or Kolek stayed in 2024-25 I’d consider those covid years.
I’m curious how Marquette will treat them in the record book. I would consider any Kolek assist records this season as sophomore and not freshman.
With Otule I took his two shortest seasons and called them redshirt years and called the other four Fr, So, Jr, and Sr.
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Completely understand.
On www.muoverload.com I count Kolek, O-Max, Lewis, Oso, etc. as sophomores and Morsell and Kuath as having a Covid year. If Greg were to stay next year or Kolek stayed in 2024-25 I’d consider those covid years.
I’m curious how Marquette will treat them in the record book. I would consider any Kolek assist records this season as sophomore and not freshman.
With Otule I took his two shortest seasons and called them redshirt years and called the other four Fr, So, Jr, and Sr.
And how did you account for Otule's other seven years?
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Not every school reclassified their Sophomores back to Freshman like MU did. In fact, MU was the only BE school to do this. Bush league move if you ask me.
It really seems like a Wojoesque move. Always making excuses for being a young team in an “old” league.
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There was a lot of positive stuff from tonight’s game. Lewis can get buckets any time he wants, some beautiful passing, Kuath had a great start with no fouls, Joplin showed some nice offense, and once again this team just never quits.
What this team lacks is cohesion, experience, and a 6’5” point guard who can score from anywhere at the end of games to close things out.
I’m very bought in to the process. Yes, it’s an “L” but they look better every game.
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At least dey ar knot tired, doe. Da teem wuz pooped last yeer at dis tyme, aina?
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A young team just battled two of the best teams in conference. (For the crowd that says we aren't a young team because of the senior transfers we are 351 of 358 in experience on KenPom.)
There were dumb passes, stupid shots, horrible fouls, missed bunnies, bad defensive periods, etc. Even with all of this, they managed to stay in the game against better teams until the end. I'd expect many of these things will improve with experience.
If you thought we were going to be a well oiled machine with five true freshman, four transfers in, and a new system, that wasn't very realistic.
The loses suck but they are also great learning experiences against good teams.
Agreed. I feel positive about the direction of this team and program. Lots of winnable games coming up.
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At least dey ar knot tired, doe. Da teem wuz pooped last yeer at dis tyme, aina?
Actually, they were. Kolek, especially, looked totally worn down with 5 minutes to play.
It really seems like a Wojoesque move. Always making excuses for being a young team in an “old” league.
"That was like Wojo" has become the ultimate Scoop rip.
I not quite sure why this "9 freshman" thing bothers me so much, but it does :) Character flaw I guess.
This is funny, because in my earlier comment, I started to add, "Saying they're freshmen is stoopid, rock, but I'm not sure why it bothers you so much." But I took it out!
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Oklahoma is 9-2
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There was a lot of positive stuff from tonight’s game. Lewis can get buckets any time he wants, some beautiful passing, Kuath had a great start with no fouls, Joplin showed some nice offense, and once again this team just never quits.
What this team lacks is cohesion, experience, and a 6’5” point guard who can score from anywhere at the end of games to close things out.
I’m very bought in to the process. Yes, it’s an “L” but they look better every game.
Agree on all of this but ...
Lewis unfortunately can't get buckets any time he wants. He wanted to get some late in the game, but Hurley started bringing double teams every time the pass to him was on the way, effectively taking him out of the game, and he doesn't have enough experienced talent around him to make them pay.
Kuath had a good start and then disappeared. The next time we heard his name, he was missing a crucial dunk.
Agree about what this team needs, and a few shooters to open up space for him.
And totally agree about your last line. The mopes don't want to hear it or accept it, but this game was quite encouraging for the long term.
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Overall, there are more positives than negatives from the game last night. Omax showed some of his potential and I think he might end up being really good. Biggest negative, we lost. This is a game that I thought we would get the W.
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I'm "optimistic" that MU's season will follow the same path as many of the previous ~8 seasons.
MU will generally lose to the top half of the BE.
MU will be competitive with the bottom half of the BE.
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I’m just going to enjoy this season. We’ve been in most games and had a shot at the end. We’ve fought back when teams get big leads on us. There is a lot to build on but the talent needs to be upgraded. That can occur via experience and the transfer portal. Who knows, we may see some of these youngsters grow up this season and we can be better at the end of the year vs the start.
There are new reasons for hope which is completely different than ‘the last 8 seasons’.
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Oklahoma is 9-2
Shaka should schedule bad teams like moser.
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I don't know how you look at last night and get discouraged. It was a bummer of an ending because it felt like they wanted to break thru (that Kuath dunk, man...)
I also don't quite know what this all looks like next year, sans Morsell and Kuath. Lewis finally looked like the dude we expected - if he's back, there's something there. There's a lot of room for growth from guys like Kolek, Jones, Oso, and Joplin, but they need to be supplemented by an infusion of experience and talent (and size) that isn't currently on the roster.
But we get to play the rest of the BE now, so let's see how we stack up against teams we thought we could reasonably hang with
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I'm "optimistic" that MU's season will follow the same path as many of the previous ~8 seasons.
MU will generally lose to the top half of the BE.
MU will be competitive with the bottom half of the BE.
I agree with you. Progress will be made as the season moves along but your assessment is accurate.
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Shaka should schedule bad teams like moser.
Neither coach picked their schedule this year.
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I saw this on Twitter and oh boy...
Coming up is a stretch of 8 of 10 games against ranked opponents. 7 of them are in a row starting on 01/15.
It is ok to be optimistic. It is ok to be terrified. This could get ugly.
12/29 @SJU
1/1 vsCREI
1/4 vs22 PROV
1/7 @GTWN
1/11 vsDEP
1/15 vs15 HALL
1/19 @23 VILL
1/23 vs18 XAV
1/26 @15 HALL
1/29 @22 PROV
2/2 vs23 VILL
2/8 @CONN
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It may have been the result of match-ups, but I really liked the O-Max, Lewis and Oso lineup. Went on the big run to erase the biggest UCONN lead of the game with those guys on the floor together.
O-Max looked different, a lot more confident and aggressive. I think playing tentative was holding him back earlier, I'm very excited to see what may have been a big step in the right direction for him.
The offense stagnated at the end of the game. It felt like the guys were merely taking turns trying to force shots (Kam, Kolek, Lewis in that order) early in the shot clock to score, rather than working through the offense to get quality looks. There was plenty of time in the game to slow it down a little and work to get open shots. I think that is a symptomatic of a young team feeling the pressure of the moment.
These guys have erased big leads and fought their way back into games quite a few times this season. They've shown the ability to do this consistently against good teams, there's no reason to think they can't put it together and figure out how to close out games at the end. It really feels to me like they're on the cusp of figuring this out.
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Optimistic as well. The team has really only laid 2.5 eggs - St Bonnie, UCLA, 2nd half at WI. We've either won all the other games, or been right at the doorstep of winning against Top 20-25 caliber teams Xavier and UCONN. This team battles, is resilient, and improving.
To expect that this team would be something like 10-3 (wins over Xavier and UCONN) at this point with the toughest non-conference schedule maybe ever played at MU, with a roster that had zero cohesion? Crazy.
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I'm optimistic in that this team is better than I think most expected. I'm pessimistic in that we need 11 more wins this season in 19-20 more games, and the Big East is so tough that I'm not sure where you're finding those wins this year. You need at least 6 from your 8 games against Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, and DePaul. Then you need to find 5 more against Providence x2, Creighton x2, Xavier, UCONN, Nova x2, Seton Hall x2. A tough task.
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Not gonna rehash it, but Pomeroy's experience number is whack (he counts Lewis, Kolek, OMP and Oso as Fosh with zero experience points). Torvik counts years of actual experience, and has us as 284/358. Still young and inexperienced, just not bottom 10.
Here's the thread where we covered that: https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=62630.msg1397714#msg1397714
The experience number isn't as directional as minutes continuity. MU is 340 in that category. As the astute Wojo used to say when asked how do you win in college basketball: "Get old and stay old."
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I saw this on Twitter and oh boy...
Coming up is a stretch of 8 of 10 games against ranked opponents. 7 of them are in a row starting on 01/15.
It is ok to be optimistic. It is ok to be terrified. This could get ugly.
12/29 @SJU
1/1 vsCREI
1/4 vs22 PROV
1/7 @GTWN
1/11 vsDEP
1/15 vs15 HALL
1/19 @23 VILL
1/23 vs18 XAV
1/26 @15 HALL
1/29 @22 PROV
2/2 vs23 VILL
2/8 @CONN
The BE is a gauntlet every year. No one should be terrified. It’s what we want.
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Optimistic as well. The team has really only laid 2.5 eggs - St Bonnie, UCLA, 2nd half at WI. We've either won all the other games, or been right at the doorstep of winning against Top 20-25 caliber teams Xavier and UCONN. This team battles, is resilient, and improving.
To expect that this team would be something like 10-3 (wins over Xavier and UCONN) at this point with the toughest non-conference schedule maybe ever played at MU, with a roster that had zero cohesion? Crazy.
All true.
There are those who felt Shaka was a bad hire, so they won't give him credit for anything, won't acknowledge the immense challenge of winning in Year 1 for the reasons you stated, and are looking for any and every opportunity to rip, rip, rip.
At the other end of the spectrum, we've got some Scoopers who were so high on Shaka that they convinced themselves that he alone would be worth a certain number of victories -- enough to make us an NCAA team.
You have folks who went into the year thinking the Big East was "down," so we'd have a chance to be a huge surprise. It does not appear, however, that the conference is "down" at all. We'll have to battle like hell just to be in every game.
We've got lots of well-intentioned Scoopers who were so disillusioned by the previous regime and who so want to get to the NCAAs this season. The results of each game are probably more important to them than they even are to our coach, who was hired to build a program.
And then there are the mopes who just love to whine regardless of who the coach is or how the team is doing. A sad way to go through life.
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All true.
There are those who felt Shaka was a bad hire, so they won't give him credit for anything, won't acknowledge the immense challenge of winning in Year 1 for the reasons you stated, and are looking for any and every opportunity to rip, rip, rip.
At the other end of the spectrum, we've got some Scoopers who were so high on Shaka that they convinced themselves that he alone would be worth a certain number of victories -- enough to make us an NCAA team.
You have folks who went into the year thinking the Big East was "down," so we'd have a chance to be a huge surprise. It does not appear, however, that the conference is "down" at all. We'll have to battle like hell just to be in every game.
We've got lots of well-intentioned Scoopers who were so disillusioned by the previous regime and who so want to get to the NCAAs this season. The results of each game are probably more important to them than they even are to our coach, who was hired to build a program.
And then there are the mopes who just love to whine regardless of who the coach is or how the team is doing. A sad way to go through life.
Your assessments of this team and coach have been very good all year long. Maybe you'll come around on Jamal Cain's ability too. 8-)
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I’m just going to enjoy this season. We’ve been in most games and had a shot at the end. We’ve fought back when teams get big leads on us. There is a lot to build on but the talent needs to be upgraded. That can occur via experience and the transfer portal. Who knows, we may see some of these youngsters grow up this season and we can be better at the end of the year vs the start.
There are new reasons for hope which is completely different than ‘the last 8 seasons’.
This is where I am as well. If we can see players continue to develop and don't get pole axed the second time through the conference I will be very pleased with the season.
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Optimistic as well. The team has really only laid 2.5 eggs - St Bonnie, UCLA, 2nd half at WI. We've either won all the other games, or been right at the doorstep of winning against Top 20-25 caliber teams Xavier and UCONN. This team battles, is resilient, and improving.
To expect that this team would be something like 10-3 (wins over Xavier and UCONN) at this point with the toughest non-conference schedule maybe ever played at MU, with a roster that had zero cohesion? Crazy.
Even the UCLA game we battled them pretty well in the second half. I'm sure some of that was UCLA playing not to lose, but they never pulled their starters and Cronin looked uncomfortable until the final minute.
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A lot of good points in this thread. We have had two opportunities to win down the stretch and came up short. Last night I felt had we gotten over the hump and taken the lead we probably would have gotten the W. I'm optimistic about our future for sure but we all know in college hoops each game is different and there are a number of variables that contribute to a W or a L. At the end of the day it's still about the scoreboard and what a team does in crunch time. It is this area where I have concerns for this season.
O-max and Lewis did have nice games inside but a significant part of that was Sanogo playing limited mins. The big concern offensively is really simple: we can't hit jumpers or get two free throws when we absolutely have to score on a possession. We just don't have a guy that can score from the perimeter off the bounce. Kam will get there but it will take some time. Additionally, we can't really spread the floor because we don't have a consistent knock down shooter even though GE has had his moments.
The fact that we shot 48% and still lost yesterday is a little worrisome. Sometimes it's a matter of making or missing open shots. UCONN was ultra brick-city vs Providence with a lot of open looks. I've talked about our press and trapping enough but the real question is why in our last two losses both teams pulled away pretty easily after an even game?
I'm interested in what you all have to say about this, as many if you are more knowledgeable than I, but here's what I have seen:
We struggle with physicality on the perimeter and thwarting the dribble drive.
Our overall help D is poor notwithstanding Kur's ability to block shots. Mobile bigs are also a huge problem for us.
Once we get in the half-court sets we are far more reactive than proactive. Someone please step into the paint and take a charge or deny the basketball off the ball. We have to be aggressive but use our intelligence and discipline. The mentality has to be we are getting a stop, no matter what, during these tight games down the stretch.
We should be competitive in every BEast contest, I truly believe that. It's about how can we improve situationally and down the stretch that will determine most of our conference games imo.
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I saw this on Twitter and oh boy...
Coming up is a stretch of 8 of 10 games against ranked opponents. 7 of them are in a row starting on 01/15.
It is ok to be optimistic. It is ok to be terrified. This could get ugly.
This is the entire point of being in a conference like the Big East. Lots of games against ranked teams means lots of opportunities for big wins and zero opportunities for bad losses. Embrace the grind, don't fear it.
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My disappointment in the loss last night solidifies my stance that the program is good hands. I was beyond apathetic the past five years, and I am now taking losses hard. There are very bright days ahead for this program and I am going to enjoy the ride.
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I'm "optimistic" that MU's season will follow the same path as many of the previous ~8 seasons.
MU will generally lose to the top half of the BE.
MU will be competitive with the bottom half of the BE.
I am curious on why you believe this?
Yourself being a global moderator, my guess you were a Marquette fan since childhood.
Crean had us in the upper half thanks to primarily the 3-Amigos and Lazar.
Buzz had us in the upper half in the old Big East with his fabulous junior college transfers.
Wojo in the upper half until the Hauser brothers decided to take a dump on the team.
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Your assessments of this team and coach have been very good all year long. Maybe you'll come around on Jamal Cain's ability too. 8-)
I thought Jamal was the victim of Wojo's love affair with Joey. And I said so at the time.
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At least dey ar knot tired, doe. Da teem wuz pooped last yeer at dis tyme, aina?
This made me laugh out loud. Pretty funny stuff.
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My disappointment in the loss last night solidifies my stance that the program is good hands. I was beyond apathetic the past five years, and I am now taking losses hard. There are very bright days ahead for this program and I am going to enjoy the ride.
Interesting way of putting your thoughts down Goose. I agree and could not have expressed it as well myself. This will be a difficult year and even next season I suspect that we will struggle sometimes, but not nearly as much. Even with immediate transfers available, I think it may be Shaka's third season before we compete at the top of the BE.
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This is where I am as well. If we can see players continue to develop and don't get pole axed the second time through the conference I will be very pleased with the season.
Connie, your point about the second time through the conference is a very good one. If we see development in this area it will bode very well for future years and even the conference tournament in which we were abysmal under the previous regime.
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Interesting way of putting your thoughts down Goose. I agree and could not have expressed it as well myself. This will be a difficult year and even next season I suspect that we will struggle sometimes, but not nearly as much. Even with immediate transfers available, I think it may be Shaka's third season before we compete at the top of the BE.
That's the problem. Three years before we are in the top half of the BE may be too long for a program that has been stagnant for awhile. If he has two bottom half BE seasons to start, and no postseasons to show for it, what players are going to want to sign up for that?
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Last night was a little frustrating because the biggest errors were things that are the easiest to take care of. Kur's butter fingers and the crucial missed dunk to take the lead, all the missed layups from multiple players, and general energy level was low to start off with, etc. You could tell in the first half that on defense they missed Morsell's leadership, but Kam(?) was doing a really good one on one job w/ Cole and by the second half they seemed to miss fewer assignments and switches. It was a big growth day for some of them.
Nice to see a few more Kolek 3's go down and Lewis working it inside and getting past (or drawing fouls on) double teams. Also nice to see some sweet moves from Joplin. Hopefully his FT shooting was just nerves and that was his chance to work past them. And finally actually took notice of positives from Omax! He really showed up a lot for this game and did many good things.
If Kur's dunk had gone in, the roof would have been blown off with all the energy and I really think that game would have been ours. Alas, things are as they are... encouraged for the next games, so onward we go!
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My disappointment in the loss last night solidifies my stance that the program is good hands. I was beyond apathetic the past five years, and I am now taking losses hard. There are very bright days ahead for this program and I am going to enjoy the ride.
Had the same thought to myself last night as I was swearing at points in the game. Past few years were pure apathy.
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I thought Jamal was the victim of Wojo's love affair with Joey. And I said so at the time.
I didn't necessarily have a problem with Wojo playing Joey a lot of minutes as a frosh, but there was no doubt Wojo had a far longer leash for Joey than Jamal. Jamal's sophomore year at MU was the textbook reason why I couldn't stand Wojo as a coach - his quick hook for some players and not others.
Jamal was one mistake and automatic sub out that season. Thought he killed Jamal's confidence, and that Jamal had a lot of talent - that ultimately never would be realized under Wojo.
Last night Shaka subbed out Stevie after two consecutive turnovers on two possessions - I can live with that - back to back turnovers is hard to take from a freshman and to allow them to continue to play.
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I am curious on why you believe this?
Yourself being a global moderator, my guess you were a Marquette fan since childhood.
Crean had us in the upper half thanks to primarily the 3-Amigos and Lazar.
Buzz had us in the upper half in the old Big East with his fabulous junior college transfers.
Wojo in the upper half until the Hauser brothers decided to take a dump on the team.
He said previous 8 seasons. Where, unfortunately, Marquette hasn't been very good.
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Elon and Shooter
I have watched 95% of the action this year (missed some of Bonnie's game due to buddy's grandson being hit at the parade) and have been to three home games prior to Xmas, both has not happened since the Buzz era. I love the fact that we are pissed or disappointed for not pulling out the last two games and we should be because both games could have been had by MU.
One thing I have not seen mentioned on Scoop is that we really do have ten basketball players on this team. While the talent level may vary, there is no doubt all of these guys are basketball players. IMO that is a great starting point in understanding the Shaka era. He wants athletes, but they are basketball players that are athletic and that is important part of the process. Because we have ten basketball players, I think they should be competitive in virtually every game the rest of the way.
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My biggest concern is the type of recruit Shaka brought in. Most of them are skinny compared to watching UConn who had men compared to MU's boys. Hopefully
he can recruit some bigger body type players. UCLA and X had men as well. Even seeing Chase Ross last night, he has size but looked skinny as well. Jones at 5'10"
may not be skinny but he is short. I am excited that they brought in another point as Kolek can not play 40 minutes, and not sold Kam is a point guard.
It was nice to see OMax have a nice game, he is needed, he got some good rebounds last night, nice to see. What I did like about his play, when driving to the hoop
he did some head fakes then took the shot. He is learning how to play. Liked it. Now it is about consistency. He has not shown that yet this year. Hate to say it, but
did not miss Morsell yesterday, gave OMax and Joplin more playing time. They need for the future.
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I don't know where I am at. I like Shaka and I think he's got things pointed in the right direction from a long term perspective. But I think the rest of this year is going to be rough, and I think its likely next year will be rough as well assuming Justin takes his talents professionally, which is probably a safe bet.
I used to take Marquette losses so hard. I still do, but my apathy is at an all time high. I still consider myself a die hard and I still watch every game, but I am fairly immune to the losses at this point. Reality is this program hasn't been good for some time. That's primarily on Wojo. Shaka deserves plenty of time he's sure to get. And I have no doubt Shaka will eventually rebuild it, but the process is going to take longer than I had hoped when we got the bigger splash hire. Still disappointed in how this particular roster looks in a year where there was effective free agency and all the minutes in the world to sell, and I have a hard time seeing how this team gets much better next year unless Justin stays and Shaka does a much better job bringing in impact transfers.
Just sucks. I don't have a ton of other sporting interests in the winter and really look forward to the Marquette season to pass the winter by waiting for April 1st to roll around. But its just hard to get up for them these days. So many years of so many losses. Such poor play. Again, not on Shaka necessarily, I just expected a better roster when he was hired. Like I said - he'll get there, just wish it was quicker than it appears it'll be.
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That's the problem. Three years before we are in the top half of the BE may be too long for a program that has been stagnant for awhile. If he has two bottom half BE seasons to start, and no postseasons to show for it, what players are going to want to sign up for that?
"At the top". Perhaps I should have been clearer and stated that we may need to wait until season three to finish in the "BE top three" but nowhere did I say that we would be in the bottom half and no post season next season. Those words and that conclusion are yours and yours alone.
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My disappointment in the loss last night solidifies my stance that the program is good hands. I was beyond apathetic the past five years, and I am now taking losses hard. There are very bright days ahead for this program and I am going to enjoy the ride.
I really like this take, Goose. Enjoy!
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Elon and Shooter
I have watched 95% of the action this year (missed some of Bonnie's game due to buddy's grandson being hit at the parade) and have been to three home games prior to Xmas, both has not happened since the Buzz era. I love the fact that we are pissed or disappointed for not pulling out the last two games and we should be because both games could have been had by MU.
One thing I have not seen mentioned on Scoop is that we really do have ten basketball players on this team. While the talent level may vary, there is no doubt all of these guys are basketball players. IMO that is a great starting point in understanding the Shaka era. He wants athletes, but they are basketball players that are athletic and that is important part of the process. Because we have ten basketball players, I think they should be competitive in virtually every game the rest of the way.
I thought the student section including the "Be the Students" was great again last night. For the second home game in a row the $$$ seats left en masse at the 4:00 media TO. I think you overestimate $$$ fan enthusiasm.
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"At the top". Perhaps I should have been clearer and stated that we may need to wait until season three to finish in the "BE top three" but nowhere did I say that we would be in the bottom half and no post season next season. Those words and that conclusion are yours and yours alone.
That's fair. Those are my own words and conclusions.
For MU to finish in the top half of the BE next year we will need huge development in the current roster and/or major talent coming in through the transfer portal.
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If we beat SJU I think we win four in a row.
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Great thread. I’m as convinced as ever that this program is on a new trajectory and I really like watching this team. Dudes like NeverBeenAWarrior can kick rocks
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Great thread. I’m as convinced as ever that this program is on a new trajectory and I really like watching this team. Dudes like NeverBeenAWarrior can kick rocks BAREFOOT.
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What I am optimistic about is the effort for sure. They fight, but Shaka’s/ Smith’s offensive system - it is getting us a lot of open shots inside and out against very good teams. If this team figures out how to improve shooting, or when Shaka recruits more shooters, this could be golden for the Warriors.
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That's fair. Those are my own words and conclusions.
For MU to finish in the top half of the BE next year we will need huge development in the current roster and/or major talent coming in through the transfer portal.
I agree with the exception of the word "huge", but we need a significant development. It's just that I think Shaka can get more out of his players than some other coaches can out of theirs. Of course, there is no way to conclusively prove this. It is simply my opinion, but it addresses your reference to "development in the current roster".
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This team reminds me a bit of Buzz’s team his second year that faced a really difficult stretch at the end of their NC schedule and then the front end of their conference schedule. They were a scrappy bunch and somewhat of a hodge podge roster construction after the amigos and Burke graduated.
The ball just didn’t bounce their way early on and they lost a bunch of tough games, but were in each of them. As the season went on and the schedule eased up a bit, we went on a run and then caught some really good luck at the end of the year in tight games. The early season struggles definitely didn’t get that team down and definitely made them stronger. I get that same sense with this unit.
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After being discouraged against X, I was encouraged by yesterday's performance. Finally made a concentrated effort to get the ball into the paint. Lewis was a beast and is best served for the team to get him the ball down low and attack. UConn was looking to double and triple team him when he was down there. Now need to punish that with some better outside shooting. Joplin and Elliott need more minutes on the court.
For as bad of missed dunk by Kuath, Kolek needs to start finishing at the rim. The few times he goes for a layup, he sure misses a lot of the time.
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I was encouraged by both games. We competed better than I was expected. There was a time in both games, I thought we had a chance to win.
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This team reminds me a bit of Buzz’s team his second year that faced a really difficult stretch at the end of their NC schedule and then the front end of their conference schedule. They were a scrappy bunch and somewhat of a hodge podge roster construction after the amigos and Burke graduated.
That team had very good three point shooters and no ball stoppers . I think we far exceeded expectation that year but that was a very solid offensive team. Little Mo had a tremendous year which was unexpected after he left but then came back.
The ball just didn’t bounce their way early on and they lost a bunch of tough games, but were in each of them. As the season went on and the schedule eased up a bit, we went on a run and then caught some really good luck at the end of the year in tight games. The early season struggles definitely didn’t get that team down and definitely made them stronger. I get that same sense with this unit.
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Who on this team would fill the roles of Lazar, Jimmy Butler, Mo Acker and David Cubillan?
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Who on this team would fill the roles of Lazar, Jimmy Butler, Mo Acker and David Cubillan?
You mean the seasons prior 7th man jimmy butler?
Or the end of bench guys in acker and cubillan?
You’re remembering them as what they turned out to be. Not what they were when that season began.
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I don't know where I am at. I like Shaka and I think he's got things pointed in the right direction from a long term perspective. But I think the rest of this year is going to be rough, and I think its likely next year will be rough as well assuming Justin takes his talents professionally, which is probably a safe bet.
I used to take Marquette losses so hard. I still do, but my apathy is at an all time high. I still consider myself a die hard and I still watch every game, but I am fairly immune to the losses at this point. Reality is this program hasn't been good for some time. That's primarily on Wojo. Shaka deserves plenty of time he's sure to get. And I have no doubt Shaka will eventually rebuild it, but the process is going to take longer than I had hoped when we got the bigger splash hire. Still disappointed in how this particular roster looks in a year where there was effective free agency and all the minutes in the world to sell, and I have a hard time seeing how this team gets much better next year unless Justin stays and Shaka does a much better job bringing in impact transfers.
Just sucks. I don't have a ton of other sporting interests in the winter and really look forward to the Marquette season to pass the winter by waiting for April 1st to roll around. But its just hard to get up for them these days. So many years of so many losses. Such poor play. Again, not on Shaka necessarily, I just expected a better roster when he was hired. Like I said - he'll get there, just wish it was quicker than it appears it'll be.
If you thought this turnaround was going to happen in 8 months since he was hired you have no idea how long rebuilds take. Prepare for a disappointing season with a really young roster. Brighter days are ahead, but not this season.
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You mean the seasons prior 7th man jimmy butler?
Or the end of bench guys in acker and cubillan?
You’re remembering them as what they turned out to be. Not what they were when that season began.
It didn't take much to see Jimmy B had a high BB IQ and talent level even when he wasn't a starter. The dude always seemed to do the right thing for the right situation from the get go.
Mo I believe had similar accolades as Kolek when he transferred from Ball State.
David always had a nice three point shot and was a tough little defender.
Hey, I want to see this team succeed. I just won't put on the rose tinted sunglasses.
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If you thought this turnaround was going to happen in 8 months since he was hired you have no idea how long rebuilds take. Prepare for a disappointing season with a really young roster. Brighter days are ahead, but not this season.
How long are the rebuilds at Iowa State, Cincinnati and Arizona taking?
I'm not complaining with where we're at, but let's not exaggerate the rebuilding process. We see quick turnarounds in college basketball every year.
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It didn't take much to see Jimmy B had a high BB IQ and talent level even when he wasn't a starter. The dude always seemed to do the right thing for the right situation from the get go.
Mo I believe had similar accolades as Kolek when he transferred from Ball State.
David always had a nice three point shot and was a tough little defender.
Hey, I want to see this team succeed. I just won't put on the rose tinted sunglasses.
Mo quit the team or maybe he was kicked off and then returned. Cubby barely could shoot for two years because of his shoulder. Jimmy was a solid contributor the year before on a great team.
You clearly mis remembering their perceived abilities prior to that season.
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Mo quit the team or maybe he was kicked off and then returned. Cubby barely could shoot for two years because of his shoulder. Jimmy was a solid contributor the year before on a great team.
You clearly mis remembering their perceived abilities prior to that season.
Correct. But I'm not sure I see a team capable of drilling triples like that squad did. That was one cool little team.
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Correct. But I'm not sure I see a team capable of drilling triples like that squad did. The was one cool little team.
The potential is there. It won’t be the same, but I see the same scrappiness from this team.
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The potential is there. It won’t be the same, but I see the same scrappiness from this team.
People may have forgotten that Little Mo shot the trifecta at .495 that season. But maybe if this group gets over the hump the confidence will grow. They have shown resiliency in dire situations.
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How long are the rebuilds at Iowa State, Cincinnati and Arizona taking?
I'm not complaining with where we're at, but let's not exaggerate the rebuilding process. We see quick turnarounds in college basketball every year.
I guess we got the wrong guy.
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I guess we got the wrong guy.
Exactly what I said.
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Exactly what I said.
Who do you think was the right guy?
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I like this thread and hope it doesn't spin away.
I am also optimistic, seeing both the potential and growth of this squad. Shaka didn't have a full recruiting season to put together the team he'd like for this year, even with the free agent aura around transfers. He seems to have chosen to focus on defining his system (fast, quick 3s, press) even if his players are not yet suited to it all. That's his choice and I accept and support it.
I am also a passionate enough fan (and long time, graduated in '88) to get frustrated with how close we've been in these last two games. Opportunities to win were there, no doubt. I was pissed off that we didn't win either game, given the position we were in (albeit from behind in each).
I'm working to just enjoy, appreciating the evolution (Lewis playing inside, Joplin working for his shot, Omax slowing himself...) regardless of the results. (Easy to say, hard to do.)
I totally dig MU b-ball, and am enjoying this season, win or lose. Go MU!
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Who do you think was the right guy?
I was - and am - cool with Shaka. He was my top choice behind Beilein, who probably wasn't a realistic option (but a guy can hope).
But that doesn't have anything to do with resisting the urge to set the bar so low around here that we've convinced ourselves that we can't win this year, or that that the season must be sacrificed on the altar of The ProcessTM. We know this isn't true, because first-year coaches step into tougher circumstances every season and win (see: Wes Miller, TJ Otzelberger).
I'm willing to bet that Shaka won't be satisfied with a 7th place conference finish, and isn't coming away from the last two games feeling like they were moral victories that are a requisite part of The ProcessTM. I'm guessing he's pissed about losing two winnable, resume-building games. Doesn't mean he won't try to make them teachable moments, or he's unaware of the team's shortcomings and inexperience. But I don't think he's nearly as accepting of the results.
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Not setting the bar low, Pak. Of course I want to win, too. Just being realistic after seeing the limitations of our roster.
And of course Shaka wants to win ... but look at the quote in my tagline. He's also being realistic.
Should Shaka have recruited better for Year 1? Maybe; I don't know enough of the circumstances he faced with the players he pursued. If it was a failure on his part, is it a legitimate concern going forward -- that he can't recruit well enough for us compared to, say, Miller and Otzelberger? I guess we'll see.
I think we both know that it's not very common for a coach to take over a complete rebuild -- which is what he faced at Marquette -- and make the NCAAs in Year 1. Has it happened in college basketball history? Yes, albeit rarely. Are Miller and Otzelberger ahead of Shaka? Apparently so. Good for them and bad for us, I guess.
Maybe 3 or 5 or however many years from now, I'll feel like a dope for having bought into Shaka calling it "a drip-by-drip process.”
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I gotta say I'm not too optimistic right now. Yes, they fight hard, and that's good, but we have too many players who don't shoot very well and our defense isn't exactly great these days. We don't stack up very well against other Big East rosters so it will be tough to find a lot of BE wins this year.
I hope Shaka can work some magic on the recruiting front or transfer portal - otherwise this rebuild could take awhile.
MU hasn’t won an ncaa tournament game since 2012. This is past rebuild. Rebuilding from what?
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MU hasn’t won an ncaa tournament game since 2012. This is past rebuild. Rebuilding from what?
Blame Buzz for 1 year (while remembering he won 7 NCAA tournament games the previous 3 years). Blame 6 years on Wojo and 1 on Covid. But inheriting a PROGRAM that has gone 8 years without an NCAA win and a TEAM that returned 0 starters buys the new guy a little time, no?
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Blame Buzz for 1 year (while remembering he won 7 NCAA tournament games the previous 3 years). Blame 6 years on Wojo and 1 on Covid. But inheriting a PROGRAM that has gone 8 years without an NCAA win and a TEAM that returned 0 starters buys the new guy a little time, no?
The Wojo Era results weren't horrible. They definitely weren't good, but it could have been worse.
Had it not been for COVID Markus Howard would have been to 3 NCAA Tournaments. The problem with the Wojo Era was that no team got better in the next year. '16-'17 season was his best work, but a lot of that team graduated, so it was kind of another rebuild within a rebuild.
Sandwiched in between the losing seasons in Wojo Year 1 and Wojos Final year were 5 fairly decent years. Not being able to win a Tournament Game while also seeing teams not get better was the nail in the coffin.
I am optimistic that Shaka can get improvement from year to year.
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Shaka deserves a fair shot of building a winning program
We are all hoping for that.
The camera shots of Shaka on the sidelines of displeasure seemed to hint that he had probably worked on things that weren't being executed properly during the game.
Hopefully that is the case, and the team gets it right in the future.
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Blame Buzz for 1 year (while remembering he won 7 NCAA tournament games the previous 3 years). Blame 6 years on Wojo and 1 on Covid. But inheriting a PROGRAM that has gone 8 years without an NCAA win and a TEAM that returned 0 starters buys the new guy a little time, no?
You left out that the new guy went the previous 6 years without an NCAA win :)
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MU hasn’t won an ncaa tournament game since 2012.
2013
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You left out that the new guy went the previous 6 years without an NCAA win :)
3,192 days and counting.
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If you thought this turnaround was going to happen in 8 months since he was hired you have no idea how long rebuilds take. Prepare for a disappointing season with a really young roster. Brighter days are ahead, but not this season.
I have a pretty good idea how long rebuilds can take. I just painfully watched one take 7 seasons under Wojo and never produce much of anything outside of 1 unbelievable offensive player in Markus Howard. Who, by the way, made a large portion of the Wojo era at least incredibly entertaining to watch.
Shaka was a big name hire. I expected him to put together a more talented roster in year 1. The entire landscape of college basketball was completely different than ever fore last offseason, and Shaka mostly flopped with respect to bringing in impact transfers. We got a couple nice role players, but no truly impact players. And it shows. Yes - I get the whole "culture building" crap, but I don't personally love the strategy when winning games is what really matters. You can build culture all you want, but half these guys that have freshman eligibility won't be here in a few years anyway. Build a team to win each season. I hope he focuses more on that before next season.
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I can't believe there are still fans that think we should be good. College basketball rebuilds take a minimum of 5 years, and even then, well if you have expectations of winning that's your fault. It seems like the players are having fun and that's all that really matters to me.
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Shaka was a big name hire. I expected him to put together a more talented roster in year 1. The entire landscape of college basketball was completely different than ever fore last offseason, and Shaka mostly flopped with respect to bringing in impact transfers. We got a couple nice role players, but no truly impact players. And it shows. Yes - I get the whole "culture building" crap, but I don't personally love the strategy when winning games is what really matters. You can build culture all you want, but half these guys that have freshman eligibility won't be here in a few years anyway. Build a team to win each season. I hope he focuses more on that before next season.
I would just say that winning vs building a culture is a false choice that we keep seeing here.
You can do both.
And I believe Shaka wants to do both. I don't buy the argument we keep seeing here that Shaka is OK with not winning (and we should be OK, too) because it's necessary for long-term success.
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I can't believe there are still fans that think we should be good. College basketball rebuilds take a minimum of 5 years, and even then, well if you have expectations of winning that's your fault. It seems like the players are having fun and that's all that really matters to me.
College rebuilds don’t take 5 years, especially in this day and age.
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I can't believe there are still fans that think we should be good. College basketball rebuilds take a minimum of 5 years, and even then, well if you have expectations of winning that's your fault. It seems like the players are having fun and that's all that really matters to me.
Shaka was not hired to help players have fun. If winning was not the objective, we could have hired a coach for much, much less. OK, I'm obviously giving you a rough time on your post BUT- I think Marquette fans do expect us to be good, though this year it is understandable that we may well end up disappointed. Five years minimum for a rebuild and even then, we should have no expectations of winning? WOW!
Edit: If I misunderstood you, please explain. I'm honestly astounded by your post.
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College rebuilds don’t take 5 years, especially in this day and age.
Panda, I would bet that was a completely sarcastic post. Especially the part about just being glad the players are having fun.
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Shaka was not hired to help players have fun. If winning was not the objective, we could have hired a coach for much, much less. OK, I'm obviously giving you a rough time on your post BUT- I think Marquette fans do expect us to be good, though this year it is understandable that we may well end up disappointed. Five years minimum for a rebuild and even then, we should have no expectations of winning? WOW!
Edit: If I misunderstood you, please explain. I'm honestly astounded by your post.
Re-read it in teal.
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I have a pretty good idea how long rebuilds can take. I just painfully watched one take 7 seasons under Wojo and never produce much of anything outside of 1 unbelievable offensive player in Markus Howard. Who, by the way, made a large portion of the Wojo era at least incredibly entertaining to watch.
Shaka was a big name hire. I expected him to put together a more talented roster in year 1. The entire landscape of college basketball was completely different than ever fore last offseason, and Shaka mostly flopped with respect to bringing in impact transfers. We got a couple nice role players, but no truly impact players. And it shows. Yes - I get the whole "culture building" crap, but I don't personally love the strategy when winning games is what really matters. You can build culture all you want, but half these guys that have freshman eligibility won't be here in a few years anyway. Build a team to win each season. I hope he focuses more on that before next season.
This is a legitimate criticism if it's what you believe (and you obviously do). I'm guessing that MU hierarchy did not put the pressure on Shaka to produce an NCAA tournament team in Year 1, and if they had he wouldn't have taken the job.
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3,192 days and counting.
Can we add a ticker?
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You left out that the new guy went the previous 6 years without an NCAA win :)
8 years, actually.
His string of years without any NCAAT wins coincides directly with ours ... and will continue to do so until either he wins an NCAAT game in his present position or leaves MU (or is asked to leave).
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Re-read it in teal.
OK, I've been had. Not the first time, not the last. : ;D
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Panda, I would bet that was a completely sarcastic post. Especially the part about just being glad the players are having fun.
Lol - Put me in the category of Wojo broken brain syndrome. You probably don't need to dig too deep to find someone posting something like this year three of the Wojo era.
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This is a legitimate criticism if it's what you believe (and you obviously do). I'm guessing that MU hierarchy did not put the pressure on Shaka to produce an NCAA tournament team in Year 1, and if they had he wouldn't have taken the job.
How much more talent could you ask for on a year 1 roster?
They got impact transfers (Darryl, Kur and OMax), retained an NBA player in Justin, and had a Top 20 Freshman class in America.
Do you need to be reminded of what Wojos year 1 roster looked like?
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This is a legitimate criticism if it's what you believe (and you obviously do). I'm guessing that MU hierarchy did not put the pressure on Shaka to produce an NCAA tournament team in Year 1, and if they had he wouldn't have taken the job.
Look, I don't think Shaka should have been required to put together an NCAA team his first season "or else". I just personally am not really impressed with the team he put together. I think he focused too much on building a culture in a time in which culture is fleeting due to open transfers, and not enough on recruiting impact players. That's it. Doesn't mean I don't like him, or I am not a huge fan of the program, or see a bright future. I am just not impressed with this roster, and I don't think next season (as we sit with a completely incomplete picture 10 months away from the season starting) looks any better. I don't doubt I will at some point be impressed. I just had higher hopes on a quick turnaround based on the level of coach we acquired.
I also have lost confidence that winning is all that important to the "MU hierarchy". This is the same group that allowed Wojo to go 59-68 in Big East games with zero NCAA tournament wins before they made a change. During that time, MU has mostly been relegated to at best a middle of pack Big East program, and mostly irrelevant in the overall CBB landscape since Buzz's days.
Again - excited for the future. Like Shaka. Think he's the right guy. Don't love his first 10 months of the job. That's OK. Not everyone has to be RAH-RAH all the time.
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Who do you think was the right guy?
I wanted Moser. Oklahoma is 9-2 and he has two top 100 recruits for next year. However, Oklahoma has not played a conference game.
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8 years, actually.
His string of years without any NCAAT wins coincides directly with ours ... and will continue to do so until either he wins an NCAAT game in his present position or leaves MU (or is asked to leave).
I could not understand replacing Wojo with someone that could do no better in the last 8 years.
Moser just seemed like the logical choice to me.
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How much more talent could you ask for on a year 1 roster?
They got impact transfers (Darryl, Kur and OMax), retained an NBA player in Justin, and had a Top 20 Freshman class in America.
Do you need to be reminded of what Wojos year 1 roster looked like?
This roster is fine for the time Shaka had to put this year's team together. The problem as I see it is next year's recruiting class, so far, is not improving this team.
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How much more talent could you ask for on a year 1 roster?
They got impact transfers (Darryl, Kur and OMax), retained an NBA player in Justin, and had a Top 20 Freshman class in America.
Do you need to be reminded of what Wojos year 1 roster looked like?
Kur and OMax are definitely not impact players. Kur is role player, and OMax is project. Morsell is a really good role player and was by far the best add. But he was brought in to be batman, or at least Robin. A role he clearly isn't suited for.
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This roster is fine for the time Shaka had to put this year's team together. The problem as I see it is next year's recruiting class, so far, is not improving this team.
I don’t think these are illegitimate concerns
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I wanted Moser. Oklahoma is 9-2 and he has two top 100 recruits for next year. However, Oklahoma has not played a conference game.
Marquette in total is not Oklahoma in total. This is not all on the coach, hey?
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How much more talent could you ask for on a year 1 roster?
They got impact transfers (Darryl, Kur and OMax), retained an NBA player in Justin, and had a Top 20 Freshman class in America.
Do you need to be reminded of what Wojos year 1 roster looked like?
Kur and Omax are "impact" transfers? Morsell had an impact the first few games and disappeared.
Curious what you think about the recruiting class for next year so far?
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Marquette in total is not Oklahoma in total. This is not all on the coach, hey?
Go on…..? Not a football school? Not a basketball school that can get back to an elite level? Don’t be cryptic.
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Kur and Omax are "impact" transfers? Morsell had an impact the first few games and disappeared.
Curious what you think about the recruiting class for next year so far?
Anyone dismissing Kur as an impact transfer is quite honestly ridiculous...go cheer for Duke, my goodness.
He leads the Big East in blocked shots and is absolutely a problem for teams to plan for.
OMax, sure a project, but he's started games and played major minutes. Impact.
As far as recruiting class next year. Sean Jones is the 17th best PG in his class. The only thing holding him back from the Top 10 or even 5 is his size. He is an elite talent. Chase Ross will probably be one of the more athletic guards in the Big East. Unteachable combination of size and athleticism. They will both absolutely make this team better.
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Anyone dismissing Kur as an impact transfer is quite honestly ridiculous...go cheer for Duke, my goodness.
He leads the Big East in blocked shots and is absolutely a problem for teams to plan for.
OMax, sure a project, but he's started games and played major minutes. Impact.
As far as recruiting class next year. Sean Jones is the 17th best PG in his class. The only thing holding him back from the Top 10 or even 5 is his size. He is an elite talent. Chase Ross will probably be one of the more athletic guards in the Big East. Unteachable combination of size and athleticism. They will both absolutely make this team better.
I think your definition of impact is what is ridiculous. Kur is averaging 19 minutes a game and 5 points. He's a useful role player. That is it.
THat being said - I am not really siding with this NoLonger troll in his overall negativity. Guy is unbearable and clearly not a fan. But Shaka did in fact leave plenty to be desired on his "impact" transfers.
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Anyone dismissing Kur as an impact transfer is quite honestly ridiculous...go cheer for Duke, my goodness.
He leads the Big East in blocked shots and is absolutely a problem for teams to plan for.
OMax, sure a project, but he's started games and played major minutes. Impact.
As far as recruiting class next year. Sean Jones is the 17th best PG in his class. The only thing holding him back from the Top 10 or even 5 is his size. He is an elite talent. Chase Ross will probably be one of the more athletic guards in the Big East. Unteachable combination of size and athleticism. They will both absolutely make this team better.
Eventually.
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I think your definition of impact is what is ridiculous. Kur is averaging 19 minutes a game and 5 points. He's a useful role player. That is it.
THat being said - I am not really siding with this NoLonger troll in his overall negativity. Guy is unbearable and clearly not a fan. But Shaka did in fact leave plenty to be desired on his "impact" transfers.
He is 9th in the country in Total Blocks. He is top 3 in the country in Blocks per40 minutes.
That's not just impact, that's major impact. You don't have to score points to make an impact.
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He is 9th in the country in Total Blocks. He is top 3 in the country in Blocks per40 minutes.
That's not just impact, that's major impact. You don't have to score points to make an impact.
Being good at one limited thing, and one limited thing only, is the very definition of a role player.
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Look, I don't think Shaka should have been required to put together an NCAA team his first season "or else". I just personally am not really impressed with the team he put together. I think he focused too much on building a culture in a time in which culture is fleeting due to open transfers, and not enough on recruiting impact players. That's it. Doesn't mean I don't like him, or I am not a huge fan of the program, or see a bright future. I am just not impressed with this roster, and I don't think next season (as we sit with a completely incomplete picture 10 months away from the season starting) looks any better. I don't doubt I will at some point be impressed. I just had higher hopes on a quick turnaround based on the level of coach we acquired.
I also have lost confidence that winning is all that important to the "MU hierarchy". This is the same group that allowed Wojo to go 59-68 in Big East games with zero NCAA tournament wins before they made a change. During that time, MU has mostly been relegated to at best a middle of pack Big East program, and mostly irrelevant in the overall CBB landscape since Buzz's days.
Again - excited for the future. Like Shaka. Think he's the right guy. Don't love his first 10 months of the job. That's OK. Not everyone has to be RAH-RAH all the time.
Again, as I said earlier, if one is gonna criticize Shaka -- and we certainly are free to do so on a fan board -- this is the most legit criticism of him.
The simple fact is that other first-year coaches also facing major rebuilds -- most notably the guys at Iowa State and Arizona -- look to have been able to rebuild far better and faster than Shaka has at Marquette. At least so far. So your criticism/concern is valid IMHO.
Will it translate into more of the same next year, when Shaka will have had more time to get better recruits and transfers? We'll see. Right now, the only grade I can give that is "incomplete."
I like to think nobody expects you (or anyone else) to be "RAH-RAH all the time." We have Scoopers who went in assuming that Shaka would be worth numerous wins every season just because of his Shakiosity; and we have a few mopes who think he was a terrible hire for a variety of reasons (including at least one twat who doesn't like Shaka's skin tone). There's a lot of ground in between, and it appears your middle ground is excited for the future but wanting to see more sooner.
I'm in a similar camp, though I'm probably just a little more patient than you in that I didn't really expect much this season -- so we've actually exceeded my expectations so far. If we're not playing like legitimate Big East contenders at this time next season, that'll be a whole 'nother thing for me.
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Being good at one limited thing, and one limited thing only, is the very definition of a role player.
As opposed to what a Superstar? No one is saying he is that, but he is a major impact player. Especially for this team. They'd be a heck of a lot worse off without him.
A great pickup for Shaka in year 1.
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I also have lost confidence that winning is all that important to the "MU hierarchy". This is the same group that allowed Wojo to go 59-68 in Big East games with zero NCAA tournament wins before they made a change. During that time, MU has mostly been relegated to at best a middle of pack Big East program, and mostly irrelevant in the overall CBB landscape since Buzz's days.
I think this statement totally ignores the situation under Wojo. Up until the end of the 2018-2019 season the "MU hierarchy" had every reason to believe Wojo's program was heading the right direction. Mostly irrelevant Maybe you forgot that in mid February 2019 MU was leading the Big East, ranked in the top 10 and we were talking about certainly a top 4 and maybe even a #2 seed. AND assuming that team returned their base of players as expected they would have started Fall 2019 ranked in the top 5. Then Hausergate happened. I don't think they could be expected to fire Wojo due to that single incident.
Then the next season was a disaster but if you recall it ended with the NCAA tournament being canceled and and many people thinking the world was going to end. So of course you don't fire your coach in that situation.
Then the next season was another late season melt down of a team that wasn't that good to start with. AND They fired Wojo and which required buying out his contract. To my way of thinking that was truly first opportunity the "MU hierarchy" to try to fix this situation AND THEY DID IT at a cost of millions of $$.
So be upset with Shaka if you want but please lets stay away from this revisionist history nobody at MU cares if the program wins or loses because it simply ignores the situation they had to deal with.
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I think this statement totally ignores the situation under Wojo. Up until the end of the 2018-2019 season the "MU hierarchy" had every reason to believe Wojo's program was heading the right direction. Mostly irrelevant Maybe you forgot that in mid February 2019 MU was leading the Big East, ranked in the top 10 and we were talking about certainly a top 4 and maybe even a #2 seed. AND assuming that team returned their base of players as expected they would have started Fall 2019 ranked in the top 5. Then Hausergate happened. I don't think they could be expected to fire Wojo due to that single incident.
Then the next season was a disaster but if you recall it ended with the NCAA tournament being canceled and and many people thinking the world was going to end. So of course you don't fire your coach in that situation.
Then the next season was another late season melt down of a team that wasn't that good to start with. AND They fired Wojo and which required buying out his contract. To my way of thinking that was truly first opportunity the "MU hierarchy" to try to fix this situation AND THEY DID IT at a cost of millions of $$.
So be upset with Shaka if you want but please lets stay away from this revisionist history nobody at MU cares if the program wins or loses because it simply ignores the situation they had to deal with.
In that season that was a 'disaster' Marquette was ranked in the top 20 at 19th in America through the week of 02/17/20.
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When comparing AZ and IA State to MU this year, Shaka has a very young roster, AZ does have a fairly young roster also but IA State only has 1 freshmen. Perhaps after this year IA State will have to rebuild with more youth while Shaka's team experience pays dividends.
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You left out that the new guy went the previous 6 years without an NCAA win :)
And that the new guy took an 11 seed to the FF.
His record at MU will be my concern. If he goes 0 for 7 like Wojo I won’t be touting him
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His record at MU will be my concern. If he goes 0 for 7 like Wojo I won’t be touting him
Agreed, sorta. I would contend if he goes 0-2 there will be smoke, if he goes 0-3 there will likely be fire. He won't get the same leash as Wojo, not by a long shot.
But I don't think, and I certainly hope, after year 2 (or even this year) we don't have to consider that possibility.
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As opposed to what a Superstar? No one is saying he is that, but he is a major impact player. Especially for this team. They'd be a heck of a lot worse off without him.
A great pickup for Shaka in year 1.
Ah, the old battle of semantics.
Kur averages fewer than 20 mpg and is good at one thing. If you look at that and say "major impact player," you should be furious at Shaka ... because the head coach of our team isn't even willing to play this supposed "major impact player" for half of every game.
Kuath's missed dunk Tuesday ruined our shot at tying the game and ignited UConn's game-clinching run. So the Huskies probably agree his impact was major that night.
FWIW, I'm glad he's on the team. We needed a role player to play that exact role, and he seems like a good guy.
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Ah, the old battle of semantics.
Kur averages fewer than 20 mpg and is good at one thing. If you look at that and say "major impact player," you should be furious at Shaka ... because the head coach of our team isn't even willing to play this supposed "major impact player" for half of every game.
Kuath's missed dunk Tuesday ruined our shot at tying the game and ignited UConn's game-clinching run. So the Huskies probably agree his impact was major that night.
FWIW, I'm glad he's on the team. We needed a role player to play that exact role, and he seems like a good guy.
No. It just so happens Oso's development is just as important, so they need to be splitting minutes. They can't play together, it just won't work.
Kur is a big impact when he's on the floor, primarily defensively
Markus Howard did only one thing well, score. He wasn't a role player.
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No. It just so happens Oso's development is just as important, so they need to be splitting minutes. They can't play together, it just won't work.
Kur is a big impact when he's on the floor, primarily defensively
Markus Howard did only one thing well, score. He wasn't a role player.
That's silly.
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Hindsight is 20/20 but as things stand it seems like Shaka biggest mistake in year one may be not retaining some of the guys that were already in place at MU.
Obviously hard to say for sure without knowing what happened behind the scenes, but something tells that some of last years guys might have stuck around and made a big difference if Shaka had really wanted them to stay.
The obvious one is Jamal Cain, but there are also guys like Koby McEwan and Jose Perez thriving at a lower level. Then there’s the Dawson Garcia and DJ Carton, which I’m not sure he could’ve done anything about.
I don’t recall specifically but I know Jamal announced his transfer to Oakland very quickly. I remember Perez stuck around campus for quite some time before making a move.
A guy like Perez did absolutely nothing under wojo, but Cain was also pretty bottled up and even Koby could have been a big help this season.
I just think Shaka got a bit too excited about bringing in his own guys, relatively younger guys, guys that fit his mold/type of player he covets, and letting them grow into his system over several years.
There is nothing wrong with that at face value, and I get that he’s building a culture and a system that takes time, but one of those guys could’ve been the difference between a tourney bid and no bid.
Would you trade one more year of Jamal Cain for 3 years of OMax or 4 years of Itijere for example? In this season it would’ve probably meant a bid, so I would take Jamal in that scenario every time.
It’s a balancing act, but in the day and age if immediate transfers I think with time he will find that you have to take a few more 1-2 year impact guys that are just there to get you over the hump. In this instance those guys might’ve already been in house.
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https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2021/5/1/22414063/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-senior-year-blocked-shots-record-top-ten
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Hindsight is 20/20 but as things stand it seems like Shaka biggest mistake in year one may be not retaining some of the guys that were already in place at MU.
Obviously hard to say for sure without knowing what happened behind the scenes, but something tells that some of last years guys might have stuck around and made a big difference if Shaka had really wanted them to stay.
The obvious one is Jamal Cain, but there are also guys like Koby McEwan and Jose Perez thriving at a lower level. Then there’s the Dawson Garcia and DJ Carton, which I’m not sure he could’ve done anything about.
I don’t recall specifically but I know Jamal announced his transfer to Oakland very quickly. I remember Perez stuck around campus for quite some time before making a move.
A guy like Perez did absolutely nothing under wojo, but Cain was also pretty bottled up and even Koby could have been a big help this season.
I just think Shaka got a bit too excited about bringing in his own guys, relatively younger guys, guys that fit his mold/type of player he covets, and letting them grow into his system over several years.
There is nothing wrong with that at face value, and I get that he’s building a culture and a system that takes time, but one of those guys could’ve been the difference between a tourney bid and no bid.
Would you trade one more year of Jamal Cain for 3 years of OMax or 4 years of Itijere for example? In this season it would’ve probably meant a bid, so I would take Jamal in that scenario every time.
It’s a balancing act, but in the day and age if immediate transfers I think with time he will find that you have to take a few more 1-2 year impact guys that are just there to get you over the hump. In this instance those guys might’ve already been in house.
Cain would have been fine though I still think the drop in level is why he is succeeding more than anything.
But I had my fill of Koby and Jose in Marquette uniforms. They are fine where they are.
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Agreed, sorta. I would contend if he goes 0-2 there will be smoke, if he goes 0-3 there will likely be fire. He won't get the same leash as Wojo, not by a long shot.
But I don't think, and I certainly hope, after year 2 (or even this year) we don't have to consider that possibility.
Willing to give Shaka Kahn a pass this year because of his late start and all the BS make them up covid transfer rules as you go. But he better be bringing in better studs by next year. So far things are looking dicey. 14 games in is enough time for his "sysyem/process" to sink in.
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Willing to give Shaka Kahn a pass this year because of his late start and all the BS make them up covid transfer rules as you go. But he better be bringing in better studs by next year. So far things are looking dicey. 14 games in is enough time for his "sysyem/process" to sink in.
The transfer rules are quite straightforward
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Under Wojo, it was announced all the super seniors would not be returning. MU waited to release them until right after Shaka was hired. I assume to control the message.
Shaka was very clear that his plan was to build his culture first, and he only wanted guys who bought into that culture. You can go back to his interview at Big East Media Day. DJ, Garcia and Pérez didn't fit his criteria nor they his.
This is a rebuild which I agree with. It has gone pretty much to plan if not a bit better to date. That said, it doesn't mean we cannot question or critique along the way. Is Scoop supposed to remain idly silent for three years?
No. For me, my one bugaboo is this offense is a mismatch for the talent. I hope the talent grows into the offense as the season progresses as I don't see Shaka changing it. I see that is a missed opportunity to dance.
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Willing to give Shaka Kahn a pass this year because of his late start and all the BS make them up covid transfer rules as you go. But he better be bringing in better studs by next year. So far things are looking dicey. 14 games in is enough time for his "sysyem/process" to sink in.
LOL. Willie's given him a nickname, which means he goes full negative within a week or so.
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LOL. Willie's given him a nickname, which means he goes full negative within a week or so.
An ultimatum, too.
Not sure what joyless willie's "or else" is, but he has served notice, dammit!
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Safe to say, willie is not optimistic. Pretty much like he's been for the last 40 years.
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Under Wojo, it was announced all the super seniors would not be returning. MU waited to release them until right after Shaka was hired. I assume to control the message.
Shaka was very clear that his plan was to build his culture first, and he only wanted guys who bought into that culture. You can go back to his interview at Big East Media Day. DJ, Garcia and Pérez didn't fit his criteria nor they his.
This is a rebuild which I agree with. It has gone pretty much to plan if not a bit better to date. That said, it doesn't mean we cannot question or critique along the way. Is Scoop supposed to remain idly silent for three years?
No. For me, my one bugaboo is this offense is a mismatch for the talent. I hope the talent grows into the offense as the season progresses as I don't see Shaka changing it. I see that is a missed opportunity to dance.
Nice summary Dr. B. And thanks for the laugh about Scoop staying silent! Agree with you about the offensive talent mismatch. I think that Shaka is taking the same basic approach that Boeheim does at Syracuse. I read somewhere that Boeheim said he looks for players who are right for his defensive system and "coaches them up" on offense as necessary.
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Cain would have been fine though I still think the drop in level is why he is succeeding more than anything.
I assume this is you trolling me. But if not, you should visit the former MU players thread. Plenty of info there that refutes this opinion of yours.
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Before Shaka there had been talk that we needed a coach with a system. Then recruit to the system. We now have that in place. Give Shaka time to recruit for it. I also agree with the system, shoot threes and play fast. Shooting threes is the offensive system I want to see I play.
He also want very high energy players who can go all out all the time who commit to the team concept, etc. Not all players will be a fit and it is best for both parties then that they move along.
People are over scrutinizing things and way too early. Relax and give it time. It will be a while.
My major concerns with the new transfer rules is that Winning teams will have an easier by time getting players. A lot easier. Winning team’s players have more fun and are more likely to want to return. How much does not having a winning team hurt recruiting and player retention this spring? CN showing the system and the need for three point shooters, even if not winning, help bring in those players?
But playing the system and showing potential recruits how we play and why we need them is probably easier than not using the system and trying to say this is what we want to do in the future. So play the system now and find the players.
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LOL. Willie's given him a nickname, which means he goes full negative within a week or so.
He spelled Kahn wrong, too. It’s incredibly on-brand.
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Before Shaka there had been talk that we needed a coach with a system. Then recruit to the system. We now have that in place. Give Shaka time to recruit for it. I also agree with the system, shoot threes and play fast. Shooting threes is the offensive system I want to see I play.
He also want very high energy players who can go all out all the time who commit to the team concept, etc. Not all players will be a fit and it is best for both parties then that they move along.
People are over scrutinizing things and way too early. Relax and give it time. It will be a while.
My major concerns with the new transfer rules is that Winning teams will have an easier by time getting players. A lot easier. Winning team’s players have more fun and are more likely to want to return. How much does not having a winning team hurt recruiting and player retention this spring? CN showing the system and the need for three point shooters, even if not winning, help bring in those players?
But playing the system and showing potential recruits how we play and why we need them is probably easier than not using the system and trying to say this is what we want to do in the future. So play the system now and find the players.
Agree with most of this, GOO. We got a coach with a system and a philosophy, and he's working on getting players who fit -- something that Nojos beyotched about for years. Folks need to chill for at least a little bit and see how it plays out.
Some of those criticizing Shaka for not turning our program into Big East favorites 13 games into his first season wanted us to hire Moser ... who took a mere 14 years to coach a team into the NCAA tournament. He was a combined 18 games under .500 during his first 6 years at Loyola. But yeah ... he had proven himself as the master of the quick-fix.
As far as the current college sports structure only making big-time winners win even more because that's where all the transfers will want to go ... maybe that's true, but wasn't it also true for decades and decades when applied to high school recruits? Didn't Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan State, etc, get top-10 recruiting classes year after year?
Regardless, we hired Shaka and paid him handsomely to turn our program back into a big-time winner. If he can't do it, he'll be shown the door, as has always been the case at Marquette and pretty much everywhere else.
IMHO we'll win enough under Shaka to satisfy my definition of "big-time winning program" -- which would be at least Buzz-level success. That will still disappoint some who think that Shaka will have failed if we don't repeat 1977, but it wouldn't disappoint me. Within a year or two, we'll get to see if Shaka can do it.
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My opinion, which does not mean it is correct, is that Moser will win more NCAA tournament games in the next 5 years than Shaka.
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For me, my one bugaboo is this offense is a mismatch for the talent. I hope the talent grows into the offense as the season progresses as I don't see Shaka changing it. I see that is a missed opportunity to dance.
I think we're seeing some evolution on that end. Thought the shot selection the last two games was really good. I also think guys like Ty, Kam, OMax will grow into more consistent shooters as they adjust to playing at this level.
I've seen a lot of good shooters look bad when they have to operate more quickly than they're used to.
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Some of those criticizing Shaka for not turning our program into Big East favorites 13 games into his first season
Literally no one is doing this.
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Hey, based on who this team has played against, were lucky to be 8-5. Could easily be 6-7 overall. We have 2 1 point wins and four loses by 8.
Also we would be 5-8 or 4-9 with wojo.
Which makes me wonder, why on earth was this years scheduling like this?
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Hey, based on who this team has played against, were lucky to be 8-5. Could easily be 6-7 overall. We have 2 1 point wins and four loses by 8.
Also we would be 5-8 or 4-9 with wojo.
Which makes me wonder, why on earth was this years scheduling like this?
Non conference schedules are not made months in advance.
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Looking at Moser's team this year, 5 of the top 8 rotation players are 5th year seniors and 2 others are juniors. Another 5th year season transfer, Marvin Johnson, hasn't been in the playing rotation. 1 freshman is in the top 8 and 2 more play 8-10 minutes a game, including the son of former Marquette player Alton Mason.
So Moser should have a team that gets to the NCAA this year and will also need to add 2-3 players from the transfer portal to compete next year, so he's building differently and may take a dip the second year. Shaka looks to be hoping to continue with this group with improving each year. 2 ways to build it.
I don't mind transfers, but I don't like to have to get to have to get multiple transfers every year just to compete. Shaka took 4 this year out of necessity and hopefully, he won't need more than 1 this spring to come in and make an impact, if he does go that route.
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Non conference schedules are not made months in advance.
Exactly. Which wojo team would have succeeded with this schedule? In 2019 or 2020, what made this seem like a good idea.
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Looking at Moser's team this year, 5 of the top 8 rotation players are 5th year seniors and 2 others are juniors. Another 5th year season transfer, Marvin Johnson, hasn't been in the playing rotation. 1 freshman is in the top 8 and 2 more play 8-10 minutes a game, including the son of former Marquette player Alton Mason.
So Moser should have a team that gets to the NCAA this year and will also need to add 2-3 players from the transfer portal to compete next year, so he's building differently and may take a dip the second year. Shaka looks to be hoping to continue with this group with improving each year. 2 ways to build it.
I don't mind transfers, but I don't like to have to get to have to get multiple transfers every year just to compete. Shaka took 4 this year out of necessity and hopefully, he won't need more than 1 this spring to come in and make an impact, if he does go that route.
I expect Shaka to be very active once again in trying to land transfers. There will be guys available that will be an upgrade over our existing talent and he should pursue those players.
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I assume this is you trolling me. But if not, you should visit the former MU players thread. Plenty of info there that refutes this opinion of yours.
It was not a troll. Unfortunately. Because it worked.
And it’s my opinion regardless of what’s in the other thread.
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It was not a troll. Unfortunately. Because it worked.
And it’s my opinion regardless of what’s in the other thread.
And I don’t see anything there that refutes my opinion anyway.
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LOL. Willie's given him a nickname, which means he goes full negative within a week or so.
You have always been joyous with mediocre. And that says a lot. Dont know what the hell a nickname has to do with "going full negative", but then either do you.
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Literally no one is doing this.
You are correct. It was hyperbole, and needless hyperbole at that. What I should have said was:
Some of those criticizing Shaka for not turning our program into a likely NCAA tournament team in Year 1 wanted us to hire Moser ... who took a mere 14 years to coach a team into the NCAA tournament.
Looking at Moser's team this year, 5 of the top 8 rotation players are 5th year seniors and 2 others are juniors. Another 5th year season transfer, Marvin Johnson, hasn't been in the playing rotation. 1 freshman is in the top 8 and 2 more play 8-10 minutes a game, including the son of former Marquette player Alton Mason.
Thanks for those facts. It's a different way to put together a team. Maybe in the not-too-distant future, this will prove to be the best way to build a consistently good team. Or maybe not. We'll see!
Moser had two great NCAA tournament runs at Loyola and deserves nothing but credit for those. His other 15 seasons: zero NCAAT games, including a string of 7 seasons in 9 years in which his teams had losing records. But maybe he finally has figured something out; we'll see soon enough. History has shown that a coach can recruit well to Oklahoma and win a lot there; we'll see if Moser can do what most of his recent predecessors did.
I'm glad we have Shaka. We Are Marquette!
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I think this statement totally ignores the situation under Wojo. Up until the end of the 2018-2019 season the "MU hierarchy" had every reason to believe Wojo's program was heading the right direction. Mostly irrelevant Maybe you forgot that in mid February 2019 MU was leading the Big East, ranked in the top 10 and we were talking about certainly a top 4 and maybe even a #2 seed. AND assuming that team returned their base of players as expected they would have started Fall 2019 ranked in the top 5. Then Hausergate happened. I don't think they could be expected to fire Wojo due to that single incident.
Then the next season was a disaster but if you recall it ended with the NCAA tournament being canceled and and many people thinking the world was going to end. So of course you don't fire your coach in that situation.
Then the next season was another late season melt down of a team that wasn't that good to start with. AND They fired Wojo and which required buying out his contract. To my way of thinking that was truly first opportunity the "MU hierarchy" to try to fix this situation AND THEY DID IT at a cost of millions of $$.
So be upset with Shaka if you want but please lets stay away from this revisionist history nobody at MU cares if the program wins or loses because it simply ignores the situation they had to deal with.
If appearing in the top 10 once in the past 9 (?) seasons quickly followed by an absolute collapse and nothing notable since is your definition of relevant, well then...we just have vastly different definitions of relevant. MU hasn't won a tournament game since I was 22. I am now 31. Its pathetic. The program is still on solid footing because the University invests alot into it - but to say MU is anything but a middle of the road Big East / P6 program at best at this stage of the game is serious homerism. Casual college basketball fans, especially recent ones, definitely would not consider Marquette to be a great program. Not that any of that really matters -- winning is what matters to me. But we certainly haven't done much of that since Buzz left.
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Kur and OMax are definitely not impact players. Kur is role player, and OMax is project. Morsell is a really good role player and was by far the best add. But he was brought in to be batman, or at least Robin. A role he clearly isn't suited for.
Ahem...
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Last two games leaves one very optimistic.
Congratulations to the team again for an amazing win.
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#nolongerworriers
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Kur and OMax are definitely not impact players. Kur is role player, and OMax is project. Morsell is a really good role player and was by far the best add. But he was brought in to be batman, or at least Robin. A role he clearly isn't suited for.
This team sucks
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#nolongerworriers
If only we had hired a white coach.
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Team sure looks good when they play well.