MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MuggsyB on September 20, 2021, 07:04:57 PM
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Has anyone followed this closely? I'm lost. The fiance drives her car back to his parents' house in Florida allegedly, says nothing for 10 days, his parents say nothing to Petito's family, he goes "hiking"on Tues, and has now disappeared for 6 days? WTF?
My guess is he never was at this house or in that car they found. Was this thing just completely botched by the FBI? I mean they may have never found her body if it wasn't for this woman calling the tip line. So either this guy is on the run and could literally be anywhere or jumped off a cliff somewhere? While his parents were complicit in shielding his whereabouts? Crazy story. Hasn't been a good week for the FBI,
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SUPERBAR
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Oh...sorry. My bad.
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I'm lost.
Hopefully not in the same way she was.
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I predict that this will end up being a lot more simple, logical and predictable than Muggsy thinks right now.
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I predict that this will end up being a lot more simple, logical and predictable than Muggsy thinks right now.
Maybe. It sure doesn't appear logical at the moment. Maybe a Bear was involved and won.
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Maybe. It sure doesn't appear logical at the moment. Maybe a Bear was involved and won.
They didn’t get the tip about the vehicle until yesterday or two days ago because the couple that caught it, didn’t realize it’s significance and also didn’t watch the video until well after the fact.
She’s dead by him. He told his parents. He committed suicide or is running.
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They didn’t get the tip about the vehicle until yesterday or two days ago because the couple that caught it, didn’t realize it’s significance and also didn’t watch the video until well after the fact.
She’s dead by him. He told his parents. He committed suicide or is running.
You think he told his parents when he allegedly drove back to Florida on Sept 1st? And their response was we'll protect you and not say a word? Then he's tells them he's going "hiking" alone of all things and they were just like okay, son? Did they think he would never be caught or questioned at all? Because his P's are going to be eating bread and water if you are correct.
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Has anyone followed this closely? I'm lost. The fiance drives her car back to his parents' house in Florida allegedly, says nothing for 10 days, his parents say nothing to Petito's family, he goes "hiking"on Tues, and has now disappeared for 6 days? WTF?
My guess is he never was at this house or in that car they found. Was this thing just completely botched by the FBI? I mean they may have never found her body if it wasn't for this woman calling the tip line. So either this guy is on the run and could literally be anywhere or jumped off a cliff somewhere? While his parents were complicit in shielding his whereabouts? Crazy story. Hasn't been a good week for the FBI,
FBI had no jurisdiction in this case and was just assisting the local police in the search for a missing 22 year old. No federal criminal violations had been committed. Due to the case being a multiple state matter, the FBI was providing forensic, manpower and national tip line information assistance.
The investigation was being handled by local authorities until the body was located on federal property. It is now a Crime on a Government Reservation - Homicide case with the FBI in charge.
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They didn’t get the tip about the vehicle until yesterday or two days ago because the couple that caught it, didn’t realize it’s significance and also didn’t watch the video until well after the fact.
She’s dead by him. He told his parents. He committed suicide or is running.
+1
who just has a defense attorney at the ready should police come knocking? Nobody, they 100% knew he killed her or in the least that she was killed and thought he'd be suspect no 1. I hope he doesn't kill himself so Petito's family can get some answers.
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+1
who just has a defense attorney at the ready should police come knocking? Nobody, they 100% knew he killed her or in the least that she was killed and thought he'd be suspect no 1. I hope he doesn't kill himself so Petito's family can get some answers.
There are a lot of people in this country that have defense attorneys at the ready.
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There are a lot of people in this country that have defense attorneys at the ready.
Probably not in this case, however.
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Probably not in this case, however.
Agreed. The guy was obviously involved or he wouldn't be on the run and would've communicated that something was wrong/he couldn't find her/etc. at multiple points between when she disappeared, when he got home, and when she was reported missing. But having an attorney at the ready isn't a sign of guilt.
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Agreed. The guy was obviously involved or he wouldn't be on the run and would've communicated that something was wrong/he couldn't find her/etc. at multiple points between when she disappeared, when he got home, and when she was reported missing. But having an attorney at the ready isn't a sign of guilt.
Yup, yup, yup. I think Hilary had her killed, tbh
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Yup, yup, yup. I think Hilary had her killed, tbh
Maybe mistook her for a baby and ate her in the basement of Comet Ping Pong.
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Oh joy. Another thread we find a way to make political.
Girl goes missing? Let's take a shot at one side of the political spectrum!
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There are a lot of people in this country that have defense attorneys at the ready.
Let me further explain. When the police showed up to his house, after he'd been home for 10days without his fiancé, they were immediately told to reach out to their lawyer. That to me seems like if he wasn't guilty there at least a part of the story where he knew he'd look bad enough to be a suspect.
Also do you have a defense lawyer at the ready? Is this a part of being an adult that nobody's told me about?
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So it’s the FBI’s fault that until the couple contacted the tip line about the video where they spotted the car, they didn’t have a more targeted area to search than the entire Grand Teton wilderness area? That’s quite a stretch.
People disappear in areas like that all the time and are never found.
And as stated this was initially a local jurisdiction matter.
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Let me further explain. When the police showed up to his house, after he'd been home for 10days without his fiancé, they were immediately told to reach out to their lawyer. That to me seems like if he wasn't guilty there at least a part of the story where he knew he'd look bad enough to be a suspect.
Also do you have a defense lawyer at the ready? Is this a part of being an adult that nobody's told me about?
LOL, I don't have a defense lawyer at the ready, but the first person I would call is the attorney that I have used for my estate planning and real estate stuff and ask him who he would recommend.
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Let me further explain. When the police showed up to his house, after he'd been home for 10days without his fiancé, they were immediately told to reach out to their lawyer. That to me seems like if he wasn't guilty there at least a part of the story where he knew he'd look bad enough to be a suspect.
Also do you have a defense lawyer at the ready? Is this a part of being an adult that nobody's told me about?
Anyone with any active brain cells should know to get a lawyer involved if police come knocking on your door asking questions. Guilty or not. There are too many cases to count of innocent people being duped into saying something incriminating because they agreed to speak with cops without a lawyer present.
And I have defense lawyers at the ready, though mostly because I have friends who are defense lawyers.
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One of my thoughts was the fiancé came home and told/convinced his parents it was an accident and they threw rational thought out the window to protect their son. It certainly could be a situation where she had an accident and he didn’t know what to do without being blamed.
Based on his other actions though and videos, I’m not sure that’s the likely scenario. Very sad story.
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Oh joy. Another thread we find a way to make political.
Girl goes missing? Let's take a shot at one side of the political spectrum!
I read it on Reddit from Patriot69Guns
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Never, under any circumstances, speak to the police.
Call your lawyer.
Anything, *ANYTHING*, you say will not help you unless those words are "I would like to speak with my attorney," or possibly, "I invoke my right to remain silent." (though that should be paired with the request for an attorney).
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Interesting. I'm not exactly mr trust the police but didn't know everyone was so pro lawyering up if you're ever vaguely connected to something
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Maybe mistook her for a baby and ate her in the basement of Comet Ping Pong.
Saw a picture of her walking the beach with Bill. He looked healthy. She looked like she swallowed something much bigger than a baby.
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Maybe 'm confused with the timeline but when did the FBI get involved and how long are we to presume this guy was at his parents' house before he vanished? I get he wasn't an official suspect on Sept 1 and until they found her body, but he was there for 13 days? He could be freaking anywhere by now. I don't know much about criminal law but this doesn't seem right to me. Hopefully his parents provide some answers.
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Maybe 'm confused with the timeline but when did the FBI get involved and how long are we to presume this guy was at his parents' house before he vanished? I get he wasn't an official suspect on Sept 1 and until they found her body but he was there for 13 days? He could be freaking anywhere by now. I don't know much about criminal law but this doesn't seem right to me. Hopefully his parents provide some answers.
My understanding is that he was home 10 days before she was reported missing.
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Maybe 'm confused with the timeline but when did the FBI get involved and how long are we to presume this guy was at his parents' house before he vanished? I get he wasn't an official suspect on Sept 1 and until they found her body, but he was there for 13 days? He could be freaking anywhere by now. I don't know much about criminal law but this doesn't seem right to me. Hopefully his parents provide some answers.
The FBI was assisting with local authorities. It became a federal crime when the body was discovered in a national park
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Always invoke your right to an attorney, not just your right to remain silent. Just invoking your right to remain silent doesnt mean they can’t try to question you later.
If you get are being questioned in Cook County the public defender’s office has a unit that responds to police station requests, just as an FYI.
Many people seem to think he should have been detained immediately. There was no actual evidence of a crime to detain him on. He was the usual driver of the van, so him returning with it was not enough.
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Never, under any circumstances, speak to the police.
Call your lawyer.
Anything, *ANYTHING*, you say will not help you unless those words are "I would like to speak with my attorney," or possibly, "I invoke my right to remain silent." (though that should be paired with the request for an attorney).
Word. You're an attorney, correct jficke?
What has been interesting to me is that it was the world of YouTube and TicToc that got her remains recovered. I follow a bunch of folks on YouTube living vicariously through their nomadic life. One such family (not one I follow) caught a glimpse of the van on 8/29 recognizing it during editing. It is a VERY small world these days.
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Interesting. I'm not exactly mr trust the police but didn't know everyone was so pro lawyering up if you're ever vaguely connected to something
Obviously in this case it was more than a vague connection.
But generally speaking, while you may feel you're vaguely connected, you have no clue what the cops think, or what the cops think they know. There literally are dozens of documented cases in which people agreed to speak with cops because they were innocent and had nothing to hide, only to find themselves locked up in prison for years because they got duped into saying the wrong thing.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting you need to lawyer up if you witness an accident and police want to know what you saw. But if the cops want to speak to you about a criminal investigation, there's zero harm if you exercise your rights - you can still help with a lawyer present - and a huge personal risk if you don't.
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Always invoke your right to an attorney, not just your right to remain silent. Just invoking your right to remain silent doesnt mean they can’t try to question you later.
If you get are being questioned in Cook County the public defender’s office has a unit that responds to police station requests, just as an FYI.
Many people seem to think he should have been detained immediately. There was no actual evidence of a crime to detain him on. He was the usual driver of the van, so him returning with it was not enough.
Regarding the bolded, agreed. He couldn't be detained. And it's not really on the authorities as she wasn't reported missing until 10 days after he returned. My question is why wasn't she reported missing until then? The minute he returned home and she was nowhere to be heard from, authorities should've been contacted and they should've had round the clock surveillance on him.
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Always invoke your right to an attorney, not just your right to remain silent. Just invoking your right to remain silent doesnt mean they can’t try to question you later.
If you get are being questioned in Cook County the public defender’s office has a unit that responds to police station requests, just as an FYI.
Many people seem to think he should have been detained immediately. There was no actual evidence of a crime to detain him on. He was the usual driver of the van, so him returning with it was not enough.
I don't think he should have been detained immediately but why would he and his parents literally not say a single word to the Petito's? There are a myriad of things that could have happened but wouldn't you want to give the police and her family all information as possible about your missing fiance? And why would a lawyer muzzle him unless they were dumb enough to believe this would just go away and she would never be found? Maybe he's a sociopath and threatened his folks? I was late to the actual story but the whole thing is troubling.
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Think about it Muggsy. HER parents don't know he's arrived back in FLA. HIS parents don't know she didn't. Maybe it's odd that they don't see each other for a week but I wouldn't 'budinski' and would accept 'We had a little disagreement and are cooling off for awhile' excuse.
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Regarding the bolded, agreed. He couldn't be detained. And it's not really on the authorities as she wasn't reported missing until 10 days after he returned. My question is why wasn't she reported missing until then? The minute he returned home and she was nowhere to be heard from, authorities should've been contacted and they should've had round the clock surveillance on him.
I don’t think her parents would have known. I think she was living with him and his parents. As Glow said, who knows what he told his parents. It sounded like they basically stonewalled when her parents tried to find out where she was.
This does not sound like a traditional setup, so there could be reasons for the lag. Obviously, he would have had an idea she was missing.
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Who knows what he told his folks about why she wasn’t with him?
And honestly his lawyer’s job is to represent his client’s interests, so not allowing him to be questioned is absolutely solid advice, and would not have anything to do with the lawyer’s beliefs as to whether or not the story would go away.
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There is a lot to question in this matter but the 911 call is interesting to me.
The caller explicitly states, twice, that Laundrie was slapping Petito and requests police help. After inquires the police decide Petito was the aggressor and make the decision that a night separated is the resolution. Throw in the bodycam footage and you can see some emergence of how Laundrie could weaponize Petito's mental health trouble into a favorable outcome.
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Can't wait for the Netflix series.
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Who knows what he told his folks about why she wasn’t with him?
And honestly his lawyer’s job is to represent his client’s interests, so not allowing him to be questioned is absolutely solid advice, and would not have anything to do with the lawyer’s beliefs as to whether or not the story would go away.
How did the FBI get a search warrant for the Florida house with the evidence we know at this moment?
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Because they have more information than the public does?
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It sounded like they basically stonewalled when her parents tried to find out where she was.
Yep. I am definitely getting some Casey Anthony vibes with this case. And as a reminder, she was found Not Guilty.
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Word. You're an attorney, correct jficke?
What has been interesting to me is that it was the world of YouTube and TicToc that got her remains recovered. I follow a bunch of folks on YouTube living vicariously through their nomadic life. One such family (not one I follow) caught a glimpse of the van on 8/29 recognizing it during editing. It is a VERY small world these days.
Yes, I have the misfortune of being an attorney.
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Can't wait for the Netflix series.
Yes
Although if he's in those swamps the ending will be abrupt.
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How did the FBI get a search warrant for the Florida house with the evidence we know at this moment?
It's called Probable Cause. The agents from Denver and Tampa got together and presented the evidence in a form of an affidavit, attached to the actual search warrant. Just the facts known to the public would be he was last known person, failed to report missing, the incident about domestic abuse. No one here knows what additional information the FBI has, such has cellphone GPS, van GPS, last cellphone tower hit, texts and messages off cellphones, another witness by scene not known by the media, did they "turn" a family member to talk, if she was buried did they check hardware stores for shovel purchase, etc... Could be an extensive list just for probable cause.
I am sure the agents had the affidavit almost completed prior to finding the body and once found, that's why the search was within hours. The affidavit supporting the warrant was sealed by a Federal Judge, so that will not be known in the immediate future.
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Yup, yup, yup. I think Hilary had her killed, tbh
Kidnapped her and shipped her to Benghazi to be killed. Then brought her back and placed her body by a national park to throw off the incompetent, deep-state, left wing FBI.
Yup, that’s what happened and the lame-stream media is covering it up.
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Good thread while it lasted.
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Good thread while it lasted.
Is it?
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There is a lot to question in this matter but the 911 call is interesting to me.
The caller explicitly states, twice, that Laundrie was slapping Petito and requests police help. After inquires the police decide Petito was the aggressor and make the decision that a night separated is the resolution. Throw in the bodycam footage and you can see some emergence of how Laundrie could weaponize Petito's mental health trouble into a favorable outcome.
I watched the entire 117 minute video the other day. I feel so very bad for the officer as it was within his power to charge Petito given Laundrie's physical injuries. MORE intervention rather than less was probably the right answer and might have changed the eventual outcome.
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I watched the entire 117 minute video the other day. I feel so very bad for the officer as it was within his power to charge Petito given Laundrie's physical injuries. MORE intervention rather than less was probably the right answer and might have changed the eventual outcome.
If only a social worker with a yellow light on her car showed up at the scene.
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If only a social worker with a yellow light on her car showed up at the scene.
A social worker likely would have been able to handle it far more effectively.
Edit: I don't mean this as a knock on this particular cop, or any cop. Reality is, cops are trained to enforce the law and arrest people, not to mediate or de-escalate domestic disputes. But rather than hire people who are trained to do that, we put cops in situations like this and expect them to figure it out. And the results are too often disastrous.
Unfortunately, we as a society have decided we'd rather spend money equipping police departments with armored personnel carriers and grenade launchers than the resources and personnel they actually need.
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A social worker likely would have been able to handle it far more effectively.
No kidding.
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If only a social worker with a yellow light on her car showed up at the scene.
Agreed. That cop did not handle it especially well.
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From the blip I saw I do think a mental health professional should have been called. It sure appears the police handled this situation very poorly.
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From the blip I saw I do think a mental health professional should have been called. It sure appears the police handled this situation very poorly.
Agreed
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Good thread while it lasted.
I could not help but mock all of the angst here. Typical "missing young white women syndrome".
It is sad when someone is murdered. That murder should not be used as "sport" or "entertainment". Women are murdered everyday in this country. Native women in the west are murdered with nary a mention of their name. Black women are murdered every day that we never hear about. Same for white women. It' seems kinda sick to only pay attention when a cute girl is killed.
The one time that we need the All Lives Matter people, they are MIA.
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Rule number 1 is if the cops want to know something, the only response is, “why do you ask?” More often than not, they won’t tell you anything or give some crappy and vague explanation.
Rule number 2 is speaking to a cop without a lawyer present is a bad idea no matter what they want. No good can come out if it, regardless of the circumstance.
Some police officers are really incredible and take their jobs to protect and serve VERY seriously. They deserve our admiration. But too many are borderline buffoons on a power trip. Those guys scare the heck out of me.
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From the blip I saw I do think a mental health professional should have been called. It sure appears the police handled this situation very poorly.
Because the sheriff's department in the Middle of Nowhere, Utah, has clinical psychologists on call 24/7 that can get there as quickly as the cops to handle the situation?
You Monday Morning quarterbacks fascinate me.
While we are at it, they should have had cameras all over the entire National Park, including inside the couple's van, so that the police could review footage and see what had actually happened.
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I could not help but mock all of the angst here. Typical "missing young white women syndrome".
It is sad when someone is murdered. That murder should not be used as "sport" or "entertainment". Women are murdered everyday in this country. Native women in the west are murdered with nary a mention of their name. Black women are murdered every day that we never hear about. Same for white women. It' seems kinda sick to only pay attention when a cute girl is killed.
The one time that we need the All Lives Matter people, they are MIA.
If there was a bowl of white rice in front of you would you create a narrative and make it a discussion about race?
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I could not help but mock all of the angst here. Typical "missing young white women syndrome".
It is sad when someone is murdered. That murder should not be used as "sport" or "entertainment". Women are murdered everyday in this country. Native women in the west are murdered with nary a mention of their name. Black women are murdered every day that we never hear about. Same for white women. It' seems kinda sick to only pay attention when a cute girl is killed.
The one time that we need the All Lives Matter people, they are MIA.
While there are a number of missing women who deserve just as much attention, I think it's less about being a cute white woman and more to do with there being a missing woman and a fiancé on the run after being pulled over for a domestic violence issue.
Frankly, missing people should be on national news more often, not less. Look what happens when they are. People become more aware of the case and find something they didn't even know they had on camera, which leads to a body being found. And I wouldn't be surprised if it also helps in finding her murderer.
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Nope a large part of the vast coverage is indeed about her being a cute young white woman, added to it being in a vast national park area. In fact the first coverage I saw was on local media on the Wyoming TripAdvisor forum, the regulars tend to post about missing people in hopes some travelers will be on the lookout.
I’m not saying she shouldn’t have gotten it; I would agree that more coverage of these situations is needed.
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Because the sheriff's department in the Middle of Nowhere, Utah, has clinical psychologists on call 24/7 that can get there as quickly as the cops to handle the situation?.
Why shouldn't a sheriff's department have access to a social worker or domestic violence counselor 24/7? It's actually not at all unusual.
And the "get there as quickly as the cops" is a false choice. Why would the counselor need to get there faster than the cop? The cop gets there first to make sure everybody is safe and no one needs to be taken into custody. The counselor can, by phone if necessary, then speak with the people involved and consult with the officer on appropriate next steps.
You're making it sound way more difficult and complicated than it actually is.
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While there are a number of missing women who deserve just as much attention, I think it's less about being a cute white woman and more to do with there being a missing woman and a fiancé on the run after being pulled over for a domestic violence issue.
Frankly, missing people should be on national news more often, not less. Look what happens when they are. People become more aware of the case and find something they didn't even know they had on camera, which leads to a body being found. And I wouldn't be surprised if it also helps in finding her murderer.
If these people were Black or Asian, and the exact same thing happened, with their pictures and videos all over social media, and they were simultaneously missing, you don't think the media would cover it or be interested? I think you're right, missing person cases should be covered more, not less. I just think the reasons why one case is covered vs another has a lot to do with the variables to consider, including the known details of the situation.
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While there are a number of missing women who deserve just as much attention, I think it's less about being a cute white woman and more to do with there being a missing woman and a fiancé on the run after being pulled over for a domestic violence issue.
Frankly, missing people should be on national news more often, not less. Look what happens when they are. People become more aware of the case and find something they didn't even know they had on camera, which leads to a body being found. And I wouldn't be surprised if it also helps in finding her murderer.
I totally agree. It should be about all women. Not just attractive women. That was the total point of my mini-rant.
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I totally agree. It should be about all women. Not just attractive women. That was the total point of my mini-rant.
When someone is attractive it's going to get more attention. Whether they're a victim, a murderer, or everything in between.
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When someone is attractive it's going to get more attention. Whether they're a victim, a murderer, or everything in between.
Right. That's why he said "should."
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I noticed in the video she was not wearing a mask.
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Right. That's why he said "should."
Look, there's a reason more people watch giant panda and koala videos than sea slug videos. It's a fact of life. All I'm saying is if these people were a different race, and we knew all the same details, it would be covered similarly. There are many missing person cases where we have scant information.
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Rule number 1 is if the cops want to know something, the only response is, “why do you ask?” More often than not, they won’t tell you anything or give some crappy and vague explanation.
Rule number 2 is speaking to a cop without a lawyer present is a bad idea no matter what they want. No good can come out if it, regardless of the circumstance.
Some police officers are really incredible and take their jobs to protect and serve VERY seriously. They deserve our admiration. But too many are borderline buffoons on a power trip. Those guys scare the heck out of me.
I'm very skeptical of your Rule Number 1. Your attorney can pose that question for you and will be much, much, better equipped to do so.
Rule Number 2 should be Rule Number 1.
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Look, there's a reason more people watch giant panda and koala videos than sea slug videos. It's a fact of life. All I'm saying is if these people were a different race, and we all knew all the same details, it would be covered similarly. There are many missing person cases where we have scant information.
Yeah, I think you are being a little naive about that.
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I noticed in the video she was not wearing a mask.
She was vaccinated
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Because the sheriff's department in the Middle of Nowhere, Utah, has clinical psychologists on call 24/7 that can get there as quickly as the cops to handle the situation?
You Monday Morning quarterbacks fascinate me.
While we are at it, they should have had cameras all over the entire National Park, including inside the couple's van, so that the police could review footage and see what had actually happened.
I work with a few different police and sheriff departments. A few of them could be described as "middle of nowhere" Texas. Several of them have developed relationships with counselors so that they do have counselors on call 24/7. Others are actively trying to develop those relationships. I think it would be beneficial to all departments and is a realistic goal.
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I work with a few different police and sheriff departments. A few of them could be described as "middle of nowhere" Texas. Several of them have developed relationships with counselors so that they do have counselors on call 24/7. Others are actively trying to develop those relationships. I think it would be beneficial to all departments and is a realistic goal.
It sounds like there was a resource officer called in (“visitor and resource protection ranger”) who at least provided some sort of counseling and urged the victim to reevaluate her relationship.
https://news.yahoo.com/arches-national-park-ranger-warned-153530619.html
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If only a social worker with a yellow light on her car showed up at the scene.
First smart thing ZFB's ever said on Scoop and it's him being sarcastic in an effort to make fun of the left.
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First smart thing ZFB's ever said on Scoop and it's him being sarcastic in an effort to make fun of the left.
A spectacular fail, although I do give it a 10 on the Hypocrisy scale coming as it did from someone that said he had mental health challenges in the past.
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What's interesting about the story for me has nothing to do with the age, attractiveness, or color of the individuals involved. What interesting for me is the unique set of circumstances surrounding their cross-country trip, the special circumstances that existed enabling him to avoid suspicion for literally weeks, and lastly, the way modern social media 'solved' the case to the point of where it's at today.
Someone has a different take? Fine. Don't particularly care.
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Setting aside the very real human tragedy, I'm mortified to learn that Nancy Grace still exists. What a reprehensible vulture.
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What's interesting about the story for me has nothing to do with the age, attractiveness, or color of the individuals involved. What interesting for me is the unique set of circumstances surrounding their cross-country trip, the special circumstances that existed enabling him to avoid suspicion for literally weeks, and lastly, the way modern social media 'solved' the case to the point of where it's at today.
Someone has a different take? Fine. Don't particularly care.
Cases with these type of elements are always interesting. My problem is that it is only interesting to the media because a pretty young girl is involved. They wouldn't be covering it otherwise - it would just be another story on Dateline 5 years from now.
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It sounds like there was a resource officer called in (“visitor and resource protection ranger”) who at least provided some sort of counseling and urged the victim to reevaluate her relationship.
https://news.yahoo.com/arches-national-park-ranger-warned-153530619.html
Dr. Black, I encourage you to watch the entire 117 minute video. It's easy to find. It's eerie for me as I know the exact spot where the interaction took place very, very well. Next time I'm there I'll likely stop and say a little prayer for Ms. Petito and her family.
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Cases with these type of elements are always interesting. My problem is that it is only interesting to the media because a pretty young girl is involved. They wouldn't be covering it otherwise - it would just be another story on Dateline 5 years from now.
Fair enough. I'm sure you're right with respect to the media. Real journalism died years ago.
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Cases with these type of elements are always interesting. My problem is that it is only interesting to the media because a pretty young girl is involved. They wouldn't be covering it otherwise - it would just be another story on Dateline 5 years from now.
"The media" (God, I hate that phrase, as if the media is some borg-like entity) gives the public what it wants. They know exactly how many eyeballs and clicks each and every story gets, and respond accordingly. There's no TV news director or newspaper editor sitting at a desk in New York or Washington saying, "This is a pretty, white girl ... give me more stories pronto!" They check their metrics, see that a story is generating tons of traffic and - because they need to make money like every other business - provide more stories like it.
If the public reacted to a missing Black or Latino woman in the same way, the media would give it the same coverage. Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. But that's not the fault of the media. It's just the reality of what the public cares about.
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"The media" (God, I hate that phrase, as if the media is some borg-like entity) gives the public what it wants. They know exactly how many eyeballs and clicks each and every story gets, and respond accordingly. There's no TV news director or newspaper editor sitting at a desk in New York or Washington saying, "This is a pretty, white girl ... give me more stories pronto!" They check their metrics, see that a story is generating tons of traffic and - because they need to make money like every other business - provide more stories like it.
If the public reacted to a missing Black or Latino woman in the same way, the media would give it the same coverage. Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. But that's not the fault of the media. It's just the reality of what the public cares about.
If it bleeds, it leads! I haven't read a minute of this story, because interest in things like this feel like tragedy porn. I understand the intrigue and mystery are playing out in real time, and that is what is driving the eyes.
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If it bleeds, it leads! I haven't read a minute of this story, because interest in things like this feel like tragedy porn. I understand the intrigue and mystery are playing out in real time, and that is what is driving the eyes.
Not that this is nearly on the same level but did you pay attention to OJ?
(BTW, YES, he did it.)
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Not that this is nearly on the same level but did you pay attention to OJ?
(BTW, YES, he did it.)
I was in 8th grade when the verdict was read out during lunch hour. Myself and 3 other students were watching with a handful of teachers. Two hand touch football could wait that day.
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I was in 8th grade when the verdict was read out during lunch hour. Myself and 3 other students were watching with a handful of teachers. Two hand touch football could wait that day.
We all remember where we were. Chick and I had taken our young kids to the local petting zoo.
So the interesting thing Hards is that you were a bit too young to have followed the entire matter in a discerning way as it was happening in real time from the night it happened through the Bronco chase to the eventual trial. I'm always actually fascinated by it all, maybe mostly about the reams of misinformation that routinely follows along in such a case. And then I'm interested how history treats it 20 and 30 years later.
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I believe he did it. I believe the defense attorneys kicked the prosecution's butt sideways to the point that I understand enough jurors having reasonable doubt.
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We all remember where we were. Chick and I had taken our young kids to the local petting zoo.
So the interesting thing Hards is that you were a bit too young to have followed the entire matter in a discerning way as it was happening in real time from the night it happened through the Bronco chase to the eventual trial. I'm always actually fascinated by it all, maybe mostly about the reams of misinformation that routinely follows along in such a case. And then I'm interested how history treats it 20 and 30 years later.
I watched the Bronco chase live while on vacation in Colorado. I believe we were staying in Silverton, and I can still see the tiny TV and small room where we watched it.
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I believe he did it. I believe the defense attorneys kicked the prosecution's butt sideways to the point that I understand enough jurors having reasonable doubt.
He 100 percent did it, and it probably was the correct verdict because the prosecution was inept and didn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt (though I do believe a guilty verdict would have been justifiable as well).
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Setting aside the very real human tragedy, I'm mortified to learn that Nancy Grace still exists. What a reprehensible vulture.
She is very easy to dislike.
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Cases with these type of elements are always interesting. My problem is that it is only interesting to the media because a pretty young girl is involved. They wouldn't be covering it otherwise - it would just be another story on Dateline 5 years from now.
Jock, you are quick to call out others for making sweeping, inaccurate generalizations, and rightfully so. So it's sad to see you make one here.
Because this:
"The media" (God, I hate that phrase, as if the media is some borg-like entity) gives the public what it wants. They know exactly how many eyeballs and clicks each and every story gets, and respond accordingly. There's no TV news director or newspaper editor sitting at a desk in New York or Washington saying, "This is a pretty, white girl ... give me more stories pronto!" They check their metrics, see that a story is generating tons of traffic and - because they need to make money like every other business - provide more stories like it.
If the public reacted to a missing Black or Latino woman in the same way, the media would give it the same coverage. Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. But that's not the fault of the media. It's just the reality of what the public cares about.
And glow, sorry, but this is both silly and inaccurate:
Real journalism died years ago.
I'm not sure what y'all consider "the media" or "real journalism."
The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, the AP, Washington Post, Reuters and many others -- even including the news operations at Fox News and CNN -- do "real journalism" every day.
It doesn't mean they are perfect, that they never get anything wrong, or that they don't have people in their newsrooms or ivory towers with agendas. But they all have a lot of extremely hard-working journalists seeking to report the truth.
Even though the news business is not what it used to be because of financial constraints, I still am grateful for the journalists who have made it their lives' work to inform the public, to search for truth and to hold those in power accountable.
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They're bringing in a team of divers to search today wonder if that means they think he drowned?
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They're bringing in a team of divers to search today wonder if that means they think he drowned?
There are apparently large alligators in those swamps. If he is actually in this preserve he would have lost badly in a confrontation with them Galway. The jaw strength of these guys is rather impressive. Who knows if he's even there but maybe he was attacked with great force and zero mercy?
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There are apparently large alligators in those swamps. If he is actually in this preserve he would have lost badly in a confrontation with them Galway. The jaw strength of these guys is rather impressive. Who knows if he's even there but maybe he was attacked with great force and zero mercy?
One could only hope...
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I’m thinking he committed suicide and hoped the gators got him
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Jock, you are quick to call out others for making sweeping, inaccurate generalizations, and rightfully so. So it's sad to see you make one here.
Because this:
And glow, sorry, but this is both silly and inaccurate:
I'm not sure what y'all consider "the media" or "real journalism."
The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, the AP, Washington Post, Reuters and many others -- even including the news operations at Fox News and CNN -- do "real journalism" every day.
It doesn't mean they are perfect, that they never get anything wrong, or that they don't have people in their newsrooms or ivory towers with agendas. But they all have a lot of extremely hard-working journalists seeking to report the truth.
Even though the news business is not what it used to be because of financial constraints, I still am grateful for the journalists who have made it their lives' work to inform the public, to search for truth and to hold those in power accountable.
Sorry. I couldn't disagree with you more. While there are certainly journalists attempting to deliver the facts, that's simply not how the news dissemination business works today. It's all narrative driven in my view. I'll suggest that our views on this topic might be partly attributable to our divergent political beliefs so let's leave it friendly at that.
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Because the sheriff's department in the Middle of Nowhere, Utah, has clinical psychologists on call 24/7 that can get there as quickly as the cops to handle the situation?
You Monday Morning quarterbacks fascinate me.
While we are at it, they should have had cameras all over the entire National Park, including inside the couple's van, so that the police could review footage and see what had actually happened.
[/color]
Sounds like the UK with CCTV cameras everywhere.
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I believe he did it. I believe the defense attorneys kicked the prosecution's butt sideways to the point that I understand enough jurors having reasonable doubt.
I believe he did it too, but if I were on the jury I would have found him not guilty as the prosecution did not prove their case.
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Sorry. I couldn't disagree with you more. While there are certainly journalists attempting to deliver the facts, that's simply not how the news dissemination business works today. It's all narrative driven in my view. I'll suggest that our views on this topic might be partly attributable to our divergent political beliefs so let's leave it friendly at that.
We'll agree to disagree, glow.
Maybe someday, we can sit down over a beer and talk about how each of us defines "real journalism."
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I’m thinking he committed suicide and hoped the gators got him
Well if his intention was to commit suicide from Gator chomps I would imagine that's rather unpleasant. He may be a delusional sociopath but I assure you that doesn't feel like a body massage. He would have died in screaming pain and incalculable fear.
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"The media" (God, I hate that phrase, as if the media is some borg-like entity) gives the public what it wants. They know exactly how many eyeballs and clicks each and every story gets, and respond accordingly. There's no TV news director or newspaper editor sitting at a desk in New York or Washington saying, "This is a pretty, white girl ... give me more stories pronto!" They check their metrics, see that a story is generating tons of traffic and - because they need to make money like every other business - provide more stories like it.
If the public reacted to a missing Black or Latino woman in the same way, the media would give it the same coverage. Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. But that's not the fault of the media. It's just the reality of what the public cares about.
This in part is true, but sociology and psychology have studied this intensively, and they do observe a direct bias towards reporting on cases like this that involve pretty young white women.
The reason isn't directly racism, but simply on what moves peoples needle. People react stronger if they can relate to the story or event. Those making initial media/reporting decisions typically tend to be white, so they look at a tragedy involving a pretty young white woman and think "that could have been my daughter/wife/friend" and report on it.
That draws in eyeballs/social media comments, because the bulk of our population "that could have been my daughter/wife/friend."
Sadly, we don't see similar reports on minorities, or people from poor communities, because we haven't advanced as a society far enough that we reflect on these communities the same way. In many ways, people view them as "others" not like them and hence do not react as strongly.
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Well if his intention was to commit suicide from Gator chomps I would imagine that's rather unpleasant. He may be a delusional sociopath but I assure you that doesn't feel like a body massage. He would have died in screaming pain and incalculable fear.
One can only hope
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Sorry. I couldn't disagree with you more. While there are certainly journalists attempting to deliver the facts, that's simply not how the news dissemination business works today. It's all narrative driven in my view. I'll suggest that our views on this topic might be partly attributable to our divergent political beliefs so let's leave it friendly at that.
I believe you may be viewing journalism of the past through rosy-hued spectacles.
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There are apparently large alligators in those swamps. If he is actually in this preserve he would have lost badly in a confrontation with them Galway. The jaw strength of these guys is rather impressive. Who knows if he's even there but maybe he was attacked with great force and zero mercy?
Yes, if he got into a confrontation with an alligator, he would have lost and lost badly. But the reality of gators is that they have next to zero interest in humans. You can go hiking and biking through the swamps of Florida and gators regularly sprawl onto the paths. You can go right around them. Still scary as hell to do but 999 times out of 1000, they will ignore you. The USA has an average of 1 fatality per year due to alligator attack.
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This in part is true, but sociology and psychology have studied this intensively, and they do observe a direct bias towards reporting on cases like this that involve pretty young white women.
The reason isn't directly racism, but simply on what moves peoples needle. People react stronger if they can relate to the story or event. Those making initial media/reporting decisions typically tend to be white, so they look at a tragedy involving a pretty young white woman and think "that could have been my daughter/wife/friend" and report on it.
That draws in eyeballs/social media comments, because the bulk of our population "that could have been my daughter/wife/friend."
Sadly, we don't see similar reports on minorities, or people from poor communities, because we haven't advanced as a society far enough that we reflect on these communities the same way. In many ways, people view them as "others" not like them and hence do not react as strongly.
I think we largely agree.
My overarching point is that it's not "the media" deciding independently to cover the cr*p out of one missing girl but not another missing girl based on race or any other factors. The audience drives the coverage. And that sometimes means the audiences' biases (conscious and unconscious) influences the coverage.
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One can only hope
Do you hope he's alive or dead? I would think it would be easier to charge his parents and perhaps others if he's alive? And maybe there's a local zoo and a Hippo that wants a snack? Hippos > Alligators. A real life Hungry Hungry Hippos might be fun on PPV?
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Do you hope he's alive or dead? I would think it would be easier to charge his parents and perhaps others if he's alive? And maybe there's a local zoo and a Hippo that wants a snack? Hippos > Alligators. A real life Hungry Hungry Hippos might be fun on PPV?
Right now I don't have any hope that he gets found in the near future (next two weeks) in that scenario I hope he got attacked by alligators. If I'm wrong and he's found I'd prefer he gets caught, gives answers that provide some closure for yhe Petitos and incriminate his parents and even his lawyer.
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I hope he is alive. If he is dead, I hope that he died a painless death, as I do for everyone.
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Well if his intention was to commit suicide from Gator chomps I would imagine that's rather unpleasant. He may be a delusional sociopath but I assure you that doesn't feel like a body massage. He would have died in screaming pain and incalculable fear.
I wasn’t saying death by gator chomps. I was saying go to the swamp, shoot your self, and hope the gators eat your body.
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I think we largely agree.
My overarching point is that it's not "the media" deciding independently to cover the cr*p out of one missing girl but not another missing girl based on race or any other factors. The audience drives the coverage. And that sometimes means the audiences' biases (conscious and unconscious) influences the coverage.
IMO this story (and others like it) gain traction in the media because it's the proverbial Man Bites Dog. It's an unusual, interesting story.
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"The media" (God, I hate that phrase, as if the media is some borg-like entity) gives the public what it wants. They know exactly how many eyeballs and clicks each and every story gets, and respond accordingly. There's no TV news director or newspaper editor sitting at a desk in New York or Washington saying, "This is a pretty, white girl ... give me more stories pronto!" They check their metrics, see that a story is generating tons of traffic and - because they need to make money like every other business - provide more stories like it.
If the public reacted to a missing Black or Latino woman in the same way, the media would give it the same coverage. Unfortunately, that's rarely the case. But that's not the fault of the media. It's just the reality of what the public cares about.
Of course, you're right. I should have been more specific about what I was saying about the media.
I should have said it is all about the $$$$ (clicks & giving the public what they want). When it comes to these sensational stories, the media basically is one entity. They all want in whether it is clickbait sites or respected national media.
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We'll agree to disagree, glow.
Maybe someday, we can sit down over a beer and talk about how each of us defines "real journalism."
All good 82.
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IMO this story (and others like it) gain traction in the media because it's the proverbial Man Bites Dog. It's an unusual, interesting story.
Honest question, can you think of an unusual, interesting story about a missing woman who was not young, pretty, and White gaining a similar amount of traction?
I'll admit, I cannot. I find it hard to believe that with literal thousands of missing women over the past decade that this story is the most unusual and most interesting out of all of them.
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Also, this phenomenon has been talked about (and joked about) for awhile. This conversation reminded me of this clip from mid-2000s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNVj59B_sLE
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Yes, if he got into a confrontation with an alligator, he would have lost and lost badly. But the reality of gators is that they have next to zero interest in humans. You can go hiking and biking through the swamps of Florida and gators regularly sprawl onto the paths. You can go right around them. Still scary as hell to do but 999 times out of 1000, they will ignore you. The USA has an average of 1 fatality per year due to alligator attack.
People confuse them occasionally picking off small dogs and maybe toddlers, aka little things that are similar size to their natural prey, and assume they are destroyers that are gonna go wild on any human nearby. I knew someone that was chased by a gator, because it was a Momma gator by a nest. That chase lasted about 10 yards before the gator had enough and sauntered back
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Honest question, can you think of an unusual, interesting story about a missing woman who was not young, pretty, and White gaining a similar amount of traction?
I'll admit, I cannot. I find it hard to believe that with literal thousands of missing women over the past decade that this story is the most unusual and most interesting out of all of them.
Maybe not quite as big a story as Gabby Petito - such a high bar I can't think of more than a few examples - but the disappearance and murder of Yingying Zhang in Illinois made national and international headlines.
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Honest question, can you think of an unusual, interesting story about a missing woman who was not young, pretty, and White gaining a similar amount of traction?
I'll admit, I cannot. I find it hard to believe that with literal thousands of missing women over the past decade that this story is the most unusual and most interesting out of all of them.
Hae Min Lee, the murder victim in Serial.
Also, I am a big fan of Dateline and 20/20, and I have seen several stories about missing/murdered women of color.
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I hope he is alive. If he is dead, I hope that he died a painless death, as I do for everyone.
Why would you hope "everyone" dies a painless death? Even people like Bundy and Dahmer? Hitler? Pol Pot? Mao? Stalin?
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Why would you hope "everyone" dies a painless death? Even people like Bundy and Dahmer? Hitler? Pol Pot? Mao? Stalin?
Because wishing suffering that serves no purpose is a weird thing to want to have happen?
What, specifically, benefits you or any of their victims when Stalin dies a slow messy death from a stroke? Is vengeance particularly valuable to you?
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How many people were aware of the missing people that Dahmer was eating? Coincidence? Or just a different time?
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Because wishing suffering that serves no purpose is a weird thing to want to have happen?
What, specifically, benefits you or any of their victims when Stalin dies a slow messy death from a stroke? Is vengeance particularly valuable to you?
I enjoy vengeance and for evil people to suffer excruciating pain. So yes, it does serve a purpose. Just as ice cream, beer, and watching Taken serves a purpose. If I was the father of one of those gymnasts that Nassar abused and legally there was a way to torture him every day? Would I object? Uh.... no. There are a lot of horrific people out there and there's nothing weird about wishing them ill-will, extreme pain, or hoping they become immediate fertilizer. This is just my personal opinion.
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Honest question, can you think of an unusual, interesting story about a missing woman who was not young, pretty, and White gaining a similar amount of traction?
I'll admit, I cannot. I find it hard to believe that with literal thousands of missing women over the past decade that this story is the most unusual and most interesting out of all of them.
Hae Min Lee, the murder victim in Serial.
Also, I am a big fan of Dateline and 20/20, and I have seen several stories about missing/murdered women of color.
Were you aware of Hae Min Lee before the podcast? It's an extremely interesting story, but I'll admit that never heard of her until I listened to that podcast. Are you generally aware of the missing/murdered women of color before seeing their stories on Dateline and 2020?
Because I think those are very different situations. I think that what we're talking about here is that missing young pretty white women are covered very differently than those who don't fit into that category. Honestly, I'm surprised that there is anybody pushing back against that proposition -- it seems so obvious as to be a truism. People who happened to listen to the Serial podcast (another interesting one is Algorithm) or who happen to watch Dateline and 20/20 will, no doubt, see many stories about missing/murdered women of all races and backgrounds. But, if you don't happen to listen to that podcast or watch those shows, you likely won't get those stories.
Those stories simply don't get blanket coverage across media sources and social network platforms that make them nearly impossible to miss.
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How many people were aware of the missing people that Dahmer was eating? Coincidence? Or just a different time?
VERY different time. When it comes to stuff like this, anything pre-Internet and cell phones may as well be Victorian times.
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Why would you hope "everyone" dies a painless death? Even people like Bundy and Dahmer? Hitler? Pol Pot? Mao? Stalin?
Sounds like Fluffy has a principle that he holds as a universal truth. Refreshing.
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Yes, if he got into a confrontation with an alligator, he would have lost and lost badly. But the reality of gators is that they have next to zero interest in humans. You can go hiking and biking through the swamps of Florida and gators regularly sprawl onto the paths. You can go right around them. Still scary as hell to do but 999 times out of 1000, they will ignore you. The USA has an average of 1 fatality per year due to alligator attack.
Same with the bears in the Smoky Mountains. Have run across them many times while hiking, and while it is always a bit scary, they have no interest in humans
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I enjoy vengeance and for evil people to suffer excruciating pain. So yes, it does serve a purpose. Just as ice cream, beer, and watching Taken serves a purpose. If I was the father of one of those gymnasts that Nassar abused and legally there was a way to torture him every day? Would I object? Uh.... no. There are a lot of horrific people out there and there's nothing weird about wishing them ill-will, extreme pain, or hoping they become immediate fertilizer. This is just my personal opinion.
That's pretty messed up, dude.
Name for me the seven deadly sins.
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Maybe not quite as big a story as Gabby Petito - such a high bar I can't think of more than a few examples - but the disappearance and murder of Yingying Zhang in Illinois made national and international headlines.
I'll be honest, I didn't remember the story until I wikipediaed her just now. Maybe that will happen with Peitito too in a few years but my recollection is that the media coverage wasn't close to this level.
Hae Min Lee, the murder victim in Serial.
Also, I am a big fan of Dateline and 20/20, and I have seen several stories about missing/murdered women of color.
I'm not talking about shows that dissect crimes long after they have occurred. I'm talking about coverage as the search and investigation are actively occurring. Those are very different things.
EDIT: Stillawarrior said it much better than me
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I enjoy vengeance and for evil people to suffer excruciating pain. So yes, it does serve a purpose. Just as ice cream, beer, and watching Taken serves a purpose. If I was the father of one of those gymnasts that Nassar abused and legally there was a way to torture him every day? Would I object? Uh.... no. There are a lot of horrific people out there and there's nothing weird about wishing them ill-will, extreme pain, or hoping they become immediate fertilizer. This is just my personal opinion.
Im honestly curious, are you a religious person?
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Why would you hope "everyone" dies a painless death? Even people like Bundy and Dahmer? Hitler? Pol Pot? Mao? Stalin?
Yes.
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I enjoy vengeance and for evil people to suffer excruciating pain. So yes, it does serve a purpose. Just as ice cream, beer, and watching Taken serves a purpose. If I was the father of one of those gymnasts that Nassar abused and legally there was a way to torture him every day? Would I object? Uh.... no. There are a lot of horrific people out there and there's nothing weird about wishing them ill-will, extreme pain, or hoping they become immediate fertilizer. This is just my personal opinion.
I find this disgusting.
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I mean I'm a huge believer in natural karma. That's why I said I hope the gators got him. I'm not exactly wishing some crazy torturous death on anyone.
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Im honestly curious, are you a religious person?
As a VERY not religious person I'll say that I don't know any atheists that would wish "for evil people to suffer excruciating pain". Empathy or morality or compassion or etc shouldn't be attributed to simply being religious. As was discussed in the Texas thread (i think), being religious can and is used to justify non empathetic/moral/compassionate all the time. It is used to motivate empathy/moralistic/compassion all the time too, but religion should not be tied to someone taking, or not taking, the moralistic high road.
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Were you aware of Hae Min Lee before the podcast? It's an extremely interesting story, but I'll admit that never heard of her until I listened to that podcast. Are you generally aware of the missing/murdered women of color before seeing their stories on Dateline and 2020?
Because I think those are very different situations. I think that what we're talking about here is that missing young pretty white women are covered very differently than those who don't fit into that category. Honestly, I'm surprised that there is anybody pushing back against that proposition -- it seems so obvious as to be a truism. People who happened to listen to the Serial podcast (another interesting one is Algorithm) or who happen to watch Dateline and 20/20 will, no doubt, see many stories about missing/murdered women of all races and backgrounds. But, if you don't happen to listen to that podcast or watch those shows, you likely won't get those stories.
Those stories simply don't get blanket coverage across media sources and social network platforms that make them nearly impossible to miss.
Agreed. And this gets looked at over and over again.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/13/523769303/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-missing-white-women-syndrome
This is an old article following a rash of missing minority women in DC that went uncovered and eventually led to congressional investigations.
From the actual research article referenced in the NPR article:
"Based on a multi-method approach using Federal Bureau of Investigation data and data culled from four major online news sources, the results indicate not only that there are, in fact, race and gender disparities consistent with Missing White Woman Syndrome, but that they manifest themselves in two distinct ways: (1) disparities in the threshold issue of whether a missing person receives any media attention at all; and (2) disparities in coverage intensity among the missing persons that do appear in the news."
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I believe you may be viewing journalism of the past through rosy-hued spectacles.
Some context:
1) Crime draws in readers and viewers. It appeals to our worst instincts and sells ads. Watch the NBC5 news at 10 with the Lovely Allison. She may be syrupy sweet on the outside but this is a newswoman who has no compunction about reading 11.5 minutes a night of crime, punishment and public safety. It sells. Period. Since God invented ink and paper, newspapers have featured crime. I suspect the Eden Chronicle had a first hand account of Cain's murder of Abel, complete with autopsy reports and drawings of how Abel was killed.
2) Journalism had a heyday of sorts in the 1970s and 1980s. There was more focus on objectivity, investigations and as John Vivian, Professor of Journalism at MU used to say, "pursuit of the truth."
3) Today, demographics drives everything. Surveying and statistical analysis is better, so, of course, we know more of what readers and viewers want. The answer: CRIME!!!!
4) The Petito story is an interesting one. She's young and pretty -- he's handsome and they're going to get married and have their whole life in front of them. Gosh, wouldn't we all like to speculate on why he wacked her. Many of us had the same life in front of us and didn't wack our spouse. Question we all like ask, what snapped?
5) There's no morals in the media. Only money!
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As a VERY not religious person I'll say that I don't know any atheists that would wish "for evil people to suffer excruciating pain". Empathy or morality or compassion or etc shouldn't be attributed to simply being religious. As was discussed in the Texas thread (i think), being religious can and is used to justify non empathetic/moral/compassionate all the time. It is used to motivate empathy/moralistic/compassion all the time too, but religion should not be tied to someone taking, or not taking, the moralistic high road.
I agree with you completely. Not the road I was heading down.
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In general, how many missing people get the kind of coverage that the Petito story is getting? One or two a year, if that many?
It's not like there are ten different stories on the night every night about missing white girls and none about any other type of person.
This was an unusual case with some very bizarre circumstances.
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I find this disgusting.
And I find the people I mentioned beyond disgusting. To each his/her own. We're talking about men responsible for the most heinous acts imaginable FBM.
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Im honestly curious, are you a religious person?
Not religious but spiritual. And I believe in Karma.
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And I find the people I mentioned beyond disgusting. To each his/her own. We're talking about men responsible for the most heinous acts imaginable FBM.
I find them disgusting to.
But we need a world with less disgusting things. Disgusting shouldn’t beget more disgusting.
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I agree with you completely. Not the road I was heading down.
Gotcha - I should've let it play out.
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In general, how many missing people get the kind of coverage that the Petito story is getting? One or two a year, if that many?
It's not like there are ten different stories on the night every night about missing white girls and none about any other type of person.
This was an unusual case with some very bizarre circumstances.
To be fair she was a social media influencer so it's hard to compare to your average Jane doe
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In general, how many missing people get the kind of coverage that the Petito story is getting? One or two a year, if that many?
It's not like there are ten different stories on the night every night about missing white girls and none about any other type of person.
This was an unusual case with some very bizarre circumstances.
How many of those one to two stories a year are about women who are not young, White, and pretty? I honestly don't know the answer but the only ones I can remember fit the profile. Maybe my memory is the problem
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I find them disgusting to.
But we need a world with less disgusting things. Disgusting shouldn’t beget more disgusting.
I'm going to assume you're not making a moral equivalency between these two "disgusting" examples? But I respect your opinion on the topic in general, that's fine. I'm a little out there. Personally, as an animal lover, I would be cool with all sorts of vengeful acts towards humans. We've been an abhorrent species for a long time.
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How many of those one to two stories a year are about women who are not young, White, and pretty? I honestly don't know the answer but the only ones I can remember fit the profile. Maybe my memory is the problem
I think you're right when you look at this story in its totality
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To be fair she was a social media influencer so it's hard to compare to your average Jane doe
No she wasn't. I think you're getting confused by the buzz of her story on social media and her in general. She had 1000 IG followers. My sister's dog has 1350 and she's not a mover and shaker. Her account gained a ton after her disappearance and tons of hashtags popped up on other social media, but its not like she was a social media name before any of this.
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No she wasn't. I think you're getting confused by the buzz of her story on social media and her in general. She had 1000 IG followers. My sister's dog has 1350 and she's not a mover and shaker. Her account gained a ton after her disappearance and tons of hashtags popped up on other social media, but its not like she was a social media name before any of this.
I was just going to comment similarly. It is more accurate to say she was an aspiring social media individual, who was currently doing quite poorly at it.
Similarly, when this story was first being pushed in media, there was really nothing special about it or unusual. That all came out later, in part because people were drawn to the story.
You'll notice that the double homicide of the lesbian couple that was tied to this has now vanished from the radar.
I'm not sure why people have a hard time acknowledging that the big driver of this is that many in media relate to her because she looks like them. Her being pretty, and white, relates to them and people they know so they take it to heart and are more likely to push the story.
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Not religious but spiritual. And I believe in Karma.
Appreciate the response. You're honestly the first person I've met in the spiritual but not religious camp that subscribes to the eye for an eye kind of mentality.
I've always been fascinated by the concept of karma. I'm no expert on world religions, but my understanding is that the original concept actually had nothing to do with reward/punishment. It was a more simple observation that those who do good tend to become good people. And those who do bad tend to become bad people. There are similar concepts found in most of the major religions. It wasn't until later (though still thousands of years ago) that the concept was attached to cycle of reincarnation and taken a more literal interpretation of those who do good become something good in the next life.
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No she wasn't. I think you're getting confused by the buzz of her story on social media and her in general. She had 1000 IG followers. My sister's dog has 1350 and she's not a mover and shaker. Her account gained a ton after her disappearance and tons of hashtags popped up on other social media, but its not like she was a social media name before any of this.
I didn't know that the first thing I read about it called her a vlogger so assumed she was a big deal
You'll notice that the double homicide of the lesbian couple that was tied to this has now vanished from the radar.
I'm not sure why people have a hard time acknowledging that the big driver of this is that many in media relate to her because she looks like them. Her being pretty, and white, relates to them and people they know so they take it to heart and are more likely to push the story.
What lesbian couple?
I'll gladly admit that now, I just genuinely thought she was an influencer
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Appreciate the response. You're honestly the first person I've met in the spiritual but not religious camp that subscribes to the eye for an eye kind of mentality.
I've always been fascinated by the concept of karma. I'm no expert on world religions, but my understanding is that the original concept actually had nothing to do with reward/punishment. It was a more simple observation that those who do good tend to become good people. And those who do bad tend to become bad people. There are similar concepts found in most of the major religions. It wasn't until later (though still thousands of years ago) that the concept was attached to cycle of reincarnation and taken a more literal interpretation of those who do good become something good in the next life.
Fair points but of course there are also horrible things that happen to good people, and totally innocent children and animals.
I've always struggled with this. I'm a fan of the reincarnation idea if I could be a Humpback Whale. A 600 inch vert wouldn't suck. :)
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I didn't know that the first thing I read about it called her a vlogger so assumed she was a big deal
What lesbian couple?
I'll gladly admit that now, I just genuinely thought she was an influencer
https://apnews.com/article/utah-b8f6d931ae2d7ac72e0df6992b1d6140 (https://apnews.com/article/utah-b8f6d931ae2d7ac72e0df6992b1d6140)
https://www.insideedition.com/officials-say-no-link-between-petitos-disappearance-and-newlyweds-who-were-fatally-shot-in-unsolved
(https://www.insideedition.com/officials-say-no-link-between-petitos-disappearance-and-newlyweds-who-were-fatally-shot-in-unsolved)
Newly wed couple. Originally investigated as possibly connected as one of the two women worked at the same store that Gabby and her fiancé got in a fight at.
And admittedly I assumed she must be a big social media star too. Found out she wasn't when I saw something along the lines of other social media stars advocating to make her dream (of being insta-famous) a reality by getting people to follower her.
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2) Journalism had a heyday of sorts in the 1970s and 1980s. There was more focus on objectivity, investigations and as John Vivian, Professor of Journalism at MU used to say, "pursuit of the truth."
5) There's no morals in the media. Only money!
On your last point, what does "there's no morals in the media" even mean? Which media? All media? And who gets to decide what these "morals" are or should be?
As for journalism's "heyday" ...
Journalists pursued the truth before the 1970s and they're still pursuing the truth today. The methods are different, the forums have changed, the kind of competition has changed, etc. But there's still a lot of tremendous (and often important) journalism taking place.
It was the investigative reporting of the Indianapolis Star that ended Larry Nassar's reign of terror. The journalists who worked tirelessly on that series are in "the media." So is Jeanine Pirro, but her brand of "media" is a tad different, no? Another: Last year, the Charlotte Observer did an award-winning series on the corruption, greed, politics and abusive treatment taking place inside North Carolina's prisons. The work by "the media" in that situation led to changes in the system. Another: ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski is an outstanding journalist; he's well-connected, has a ton of sources, and is quite often the first to break significant news on his beat. If folks lump him in with MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell because both are in "the media," that's on the lumpers, not the lumpee.
"Media" is a big term. Sean Hannity, Rachel Maddow, Jeremy Schaap, Dickey Simpkins, the Channel 2 weatherman and the guy who writes a dozen articles a week for my local weekly newspaper are all part of "the media." But their jobs aren't exactly the same, are they?
What I've found is that when most people criticize "the media," they actually are criticizing:
++ Well-known TV personalities, such as the Fox News, MSNBC and CNN prime-time yakkers. People praise "the media" who agree with their POV, criticize those who don't.
++ Major metro newspapers, especially if the ideology (or perceived ideology) differs from their own.
++ TV opinion-givers and newspaper columnists. Many consumers of news do not know the difference between opinion-givers and reporters.
++ Those in the sports media, mostly TV but sometimes print, who supposedly "hate" the favorite team or supposedly "love" the rivals.
++ Pretty much anybody in "the media" who doesn't confirm a given news consumer's own beliefs.
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As the Petito case grips the nation, families of color say their missing loved ones matter, too
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/missing-persons-families-seek-help-after-gabby-petito-death/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34c244e%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F17%2F38%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2
The last time Kimberly Bryan spoke to her sister, Tiffany Foster was showing off her new car. Bryan cracked some jokes about how it was about time but also told her big sister how proud she was. Foster was getting close to graduating from college, and everything seemed to be lining up for her.
That was more than six months ago. Foster, a 35-year-old Black mother of three from Newnan, Ga., has not been seen or heard from since March 1.
Bryan and her family handed out fliers, spoke at news conferences and hosted rallies to draw attention to Foster’s disappearance, but the case has remained mostly unknown outside their home state. So when Bryan saw the surge of interest in the Gabby Petito case, the difference was impossible to ignore.
“It does make you feel, you know, ‘Well, what about us?’ ” Bryan said. “When are we going to get her face out nationally? When are we going to get the FBI come in and help us out? We didn’t get that, and I’m asking my mom, ‘Well, why?’ And it’s no answers. We have a lot of questions with no answers.”
In the weeks since Petito was reported missing during a cross-country trip with her fiance, her story has captured national and international attention, dominating TikTok and other social media networks and garnering around-the-clock national news coverage. Partly due to the tremendous public awareness, tips flowed to the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, and the body of the 22-year-old woman was discovered Sunday near Wyoming’s Grand Teton National Park.
A manhunt for fiance Brian Laundrie, whom authorities named a “person of interest” in the case, continues. News outlets and social media users continue to track every development.
The groundswell of concern for Petito has revived perennial questions about why some missing-person cases attract such a dedicated response while others barely draw notice with many observers seeing a racial disparity at play. Between 2011 and 2020, at least 710 Indigenous people were reported missing in Wyoming, the same state where Petito, who is White, was lost and found within a matter of days.
Bryan doesn’t understand why the story of her sister, a Georgia Military College student with dreams of becoming a police officer, has not spread as widely. But, she noted, “I do feel like it could possibly be because my sister doesn’t have blond hair and blue eyes.”
Research suggests that victims who are White, attractive, young and seemingly “innocent” gain more traction in the media, said Michelle N. Jeanis, an assistant professor of criminal justice at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette who studies the relationship between crime and news and entertainment media.
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We've been an abhorrent species for a long time.
I think that this is nonsense...although I suppose it does explain your enthusiasm for torture (which I, and apparently several others here, find "messed up," "disgusting," and dare I say "abhorrent").
There have been examples of abhorrent members of our species since the beginning of time. That doesn't make the species abhorrent. I see examples of kindness, empathy, and compassion far more often than I see examples of abhorrent behavior. For example, you're love and compassion for animals.
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CNN just posted an article about the frustrations of minorities over "missing white woman syndrome". Seems odd to write about it when they helped create it in the first place. I mean I wouldn't have known about this case if I didn't get a CNN alert on my phone.
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CNN just posted an article about the frustrations of minorities over "missing white woman syndrome". Seems odd to write about it when they helped create it in the first place. I mean I wouldn't have known about this case if I didn't get a CNN alert on my phone.
Because they got push back. The "be quiet and take it" media consumer doesn't exist anymore thanks to social media. CNN, and other outlets, have likely been bombarded for the last week over their coverage of Petito when they've never come close to that level with a person who didn't fit the MWWS framework.
They all have social media curators. They all recognized the pushback buzz. The editors decided we need to address it. Rinse and repeat.
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CNN just posted an article about the frustrations of minorities over "missing white woman syndrome". Seems odd to write about it when they helped create it in the first place. I mean I wouldn't have known about this case if I didn't get a CNN alert on my phone.
Or they write about it because they think they can capitalize on the story and drive more traffic from it.
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As the Petito case grips the nation, families of color say their missing loved ones matter, too
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/22/missing-persons-families-seek-help-after-gabby-petito-death/?utm_campaign=wp_the7&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_the7&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34c244e%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F17%2F38%2F614c5e819d2fda9d41df27a2
The last time Kimberly Bryan spoke to her sister, Tiffany Foster was showing off her new car. Bryan cracked some jokes about how it was about time but also told her big sister how proud she was. Foster was getting close to graduating from college, and everything seemed to be lining up for her.
That was more than six months ago. Foster, a 35-year-old Black mother of three from Newnan, Ga., has not been seen or heard from since March 1.
Bryan and her family handed out fliers, spoke at news conferences and hosted rallies to draw attention to Foster’s disappearance, but the case has remained mostly unknown outside their home state. So when Bryan saw the surge of interest in the Gabby Petito case, the difference was impossible to ignore.
“It does make you feel, you know, ‘Well, what about us?’ ” Bryan said. “When are we going to get her face out nationally? When are we going to get the FBI come in and help us out? We didn’t get that, and I’m asking my mom, ‘Well, why?’ And it’s no answers. We have a lot of questions with no answers.”
In the weeks since Petito was reported missing during a cross-country trip with her fiance, her story has captured national and international attention, dominating TikTok and other social media networks and garnering around-the-clock national news coverage. Partly due to the tremendous public awareness, tips flowed to the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, and the body of the 22-year-old woman was discovered Sunday near Wyoming’s Grand Teton National Park.
A manhunt for fiance Brian Laundrie, whom authorities named a “person of interest” in the case, continues. News outlets and social media users continue to track every development.
The groundswell of concern for Petito has revived perennial questions about why some missing-person cases attract such a dedicated response while others barely draw notice with many observers seeing a racial disparity at play. Between 2011 and 2020, at least 710 Indigenous people were reported missing in Wyoming, the same state where Petito, who is White, was lost and found within a matter of days.
Bryan doesn’t understand why the story of her sister, a Georgia Military College student with dreams of becoming a police officer, has not spread as widely. But, she noted, “I do feel like it could possibly be because my sister doesn’t have blond hair and blue eyes.”
Research suggests that victims who are White, attractive, young and seemingly “innocent” gain more traction in the media, said Michelle N. Jeanis, an assistant professor of criminal justice at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette who studies the relationship between crime and news and entertainment media.
Sad story and I feel for her family, but there is myriad reasons why the Petito story is different and more unique than her sister's disappearance, and they aren't racially based. Its not like the FBI jumped in because she was an attractive white woman.
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Brother Mu:
Interesting perspective. While I'll acknowledge that some newspapers still do great investigative work -- the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel with its coverage of Great Lakes water quality, the Chicago Tribune on how guns from Superior, WI kill people in Chicago or the Indy Star on Larry Nassar -- these initiatives are few and far between. Newspapers and television are far too stressed to put someone on a Nassar investigation, for example, for six months or more and don't have the time or money to do this.
Frankly, these investigations don't bring new consumers or keep existing consumers.
There's no IRE (Investigative Reporters and Editors) today the way there was beginning in 1979. That came about when a Phoenix reporter's car was turned into a car bomb by those who did not like his reporting. It lasted about 10 years until its funding dried up around 1990.
As to media bias, when you can stand up and tell me on these pages that Fox News is objective the way CBS or NBC used to be, I'll buy your argument. Ditto for any conservative who can stand up on these pages and say CNN is today's Walter Cronkite or Huntley-Brinkley! When a New York Times editor gets blackballed and run off the property because they printed an op-ed piece from Senator Tom Cotton, who is a Republican leader no matter how much you might dislike him, then there's a problem with media bias.
I admit I'm a media junkie. I actually worked in the media for a decade. What's happening today is a far cry from the 1970s and 1980s (and I might add, the 1960s as well). In those days, objectivity was everything. Because we're human and have feelings, we're not always objective, but back then, the media tried. Plus the number of editors and copy editors between the reporter and the printed or broadcast report was far greater than today.
Your comment about the difference between commentators and reporters was an interesting one. Yeah, there's many conclusions about media bias being drawn by whether your favorite commentator is Rachel Maddow or Sean Hannity. But I submit that the lines between reporting and commentating have been blurred, if not erased. One of the foundation principles taught to us back in the day (God, I'm sounding old) is never inject yourself into your reporting. Using the personal pronoun "I" was an automatic "F" with an optional re-write in Marquette's College of Journalism. Today's College of Communications probably encourages it!
No Brother, we're not seeking the truth in today's media. We're doing what I once said about Crain's Chicago Business: "Never let the facts get in the way of a good conclusion!"
Last thought as it relates to media morals: When the News with Rob and the Lovey Allison is broadcast (or whatever the equivalent in Charlotte might be), what would you rather watch: 13 minutes of exploitative reporting on the Petito story or some local version thereof, or 13 minutes on Illinois' insufferable public pension deficit and what can be done about it.
The American people have voted on that one with their eyes and ears.
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Well done degies.
Today it takes so very much effort to understand the 'truth'. It's really quite easy to spot the bias if one has a discerning, analytical mind. What frightens me is that most folks just lap it up allowing their own biases to be reinforced by media simply interested in clicks.
A free, independent and highly skeptical press committed to challenging and honestly testing any story is critical for a functioning democracy. We're in a very bad spot with respect to that unfortunately.
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Well done degies.
Today it takes so very much effort to understand the 'truth'. It's really quite easy to spot the bias if one has a discerning, analytical mind. What frightens me is that most folks just lap it up allowing their own biases to be reinforced by media simply interested in clicks.
A free, independent and highly skeptical press committed to challenging and honestly testing any story is critical for a functioning democracy. We're in a very bad spot with respect to that unfortunately.
I think both sides have the highly skeptical portion down when it comes to reporting the other side
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I don't think traditional media has gotten more biased than it was in the 70s or 80s. I think now there is more "new media" that is extremely biased that makes a point to point out the more subtle bias in traditional media that has always existed (but only on the opposite side of their political leaning of course).
The rise of this extremely biased "new media" also gives consumers permission to dismiss anything they hear that they don't like as "bias" even when it is factual. That is the crux of the problem, not media bias.
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Sad story and I feel for her family, but there is myriad reasons why the Petito story is different and more unique than her sister's disappearance, and they aren't racially based. Its not like the FBI jumped in because she was an attractive white woman.
Nope, everything can be blamed on racism now. Forget the fact that the girl was a well known "vlogger" and people on social media sites like Tik Tok helped this story explode (like they did the Asian woman who disappeared at the Cecil Hotel) or that Joy Reid has never bothered to cover any of the missing Black or minority women, it's easier for her to scream "racism" and stir up racial tensions instead of doing what she is accusing the media of not doing.
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Nope, everything can be blamed on racism now. Forget the fact that the girl was a well known "vlogger" and people on social media sites like Tik Tok helped this story explode (like they did the Asian woman who disappeared at the Cecil Hotel) or that Joy Reid has never bothered to cover any of the missing Black or minority women, it's easier for her to scream "racism" and stir up racial tensions instead of doing what she is accusing the media of not doing.
1. Petito was not a well known vlogger. This was debunked earlier in this thread.
2. Elisa Lam (had to look up the name) didn't get nearly this level of media coverage
3. Reid and others should do more to cover other missing women. That doesn't mean that young pretty White women don't get more attention when they go missing
Look it's undeniable that what Petito looks like is a factor in why so many people are paying attention. It's not the only factor, it doesn't make anyone who's interested in the case but not others bad people, it's just a reality. Pointing it out is important so hopefully now and in the future, more missing women get the same level of or at least more attention.
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1. Petito was not a well know vlogger. This was debunked earlier in this thread.
2. Elisa Lam (had to look up the name) didn't get nearly this level of media coverage
3. Reid and other should do more to cover other missing women. That doesn't mean that young pretty Women don't get more attention when they go missing
Look it's undeniable that what Petito looks like is a factor in why so many people are paying attention. It's not the only factor, it doesn't make anyone who's interested in the case but not others bad people, it's just a reality. Pointing it out is important so hopefully now and in the future, more missing women get the same level of attention.
You forgot
4. No one is "screaming racism."
They are pointing out bias.
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I don't think traditional media has gotten more biased than it was in the 70s or 80s. I think now there is more "new media" that is extremely biased that makes a point to point out the more subtle bias in traditional media that has always existed (but only on the opposite side of their political leaning of course).
The rise of this extremely biased "new media" also gives consumers permission to dismiss anything they hear that they don't like as "bias" even when it is factual. That is the crux of the problem, not media bias.
Brother TAMU:
I respectfully disagree. I'll concede your point about cable networks, podcasts and a host of similar media outlets that have emerged since 1980. Unfortunately, the mainstream networks and news publications have to compete. They see the edginess and assertiveness of Fox or CNN and basically say, "if you can't beat 'em join 'em.
Another thing that is often forgotten is that networks and television stations were governed by the fairness doctrine for many years. The fairness doctrine probably was blatantly unconstitutional but was never tested. As a consequence, TV and radio stations feared FCC action and tended to present "all sides" of an issue. More than a few times, the Nixon Administration threatened CBS because they didn't like Dan Rather.
For newspapers, the issue is demographics. If your precious readership (shrinking by the hour) likes slanted crime stories, you give them slanted crime stories. If your readership is a limousine liberal from the Upper East Side, you make sure Tom Cotton isn't on your editorial pages and you worship at the altar of AOC. Gone are the days when newspapers sold to everyone and tried to cover the major issues affecting a community on a day-in, day-out basis.
And, if your readership is government employees in Virginia, Maryland and the District, elected officials and lobbyists, you make damn sure you're reflecting their vision of the world in your news and your commentary.
Yeup, I'm cynical!
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As a VERY not religious person I'll say that I don't know any atheists that would wish "for evil people to suffer excruciating pain". Empathy or morality or compassion or etc shouldn't be attributed to simply being religious. As was discussed in the Texas thread (i think), being religious can and is used to justify non empathetic/moral/compassionate all the time. It is used to motivate empathy/moralistic/compassion all the time too, but religion should not be tied to someone taking, or not taking, the moralistic high road.
Just from personal experience (being raised in a very conservative religion), I would agree 100%.
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You forgot
4. No one is "screaming racism."
They are pointing out bias.
yeah, that's what a no-talent hack like Joy Reid is screaming. "Bias."
And, like I said, the story was further amplified by other social media bloggers. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/gabby-petito-van-wyoming-blogger-b1923783.html
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yeah, that's what a no-talent hack like Joy Reid is screaming. "Bias."
I have no idea who Joy Reid is and don't really care. You get too caught up in what the fringes are yelling and presenting anecdotal stories as fact. Be smarter.
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I have no idea who Joy Reid is and don't really care. You get too caught up in what the fringes are yelling and presenting anecdotal stories as fact. Be smarter.
He is absolutely obsessed with race. It must suck walking around angry all the time but best to ignore it.
The NYT magazine a couple weeks ago had a great piece about an FBI counterterrorism agent who leaked information about unlawful conduct the FBI was doing, ostensibly in the name of counterterrorism. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/magazine/fbi-terrorism-terry-albury.html. A fascinating moment comes when the piece explains how the story, which was explosive, broke in winter 2017 but was completely swallowed by breathless reactions to the president's latest shenanigans. That's a failure of media to sufficiently report on something big, that impacts everyone and highlights serious civil rights violations going on in our government, in view of just garnering larger audiences. One of many such examples.
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On your last point, what does "there's no morals in the media" even mean? Which media? All media? And who gets to decide what these "morals" are or should be?
As for journalism's "heyday" ...
Journalists pursued the truth before the 1970s and they're still pursuing the truth today. The methods are different, the forums have changed, the kind of competition has changed, etc. But there's still a lot of tremendous (and often important) journalism taking place.
It was the investigative reporting of the Indianapolis Star that ended Larry Nassar's reign of terror. The journalists who worked tirelessly on that series are in "the media." So is Jeanine Pirro, but her brand of "media" is a tad different, no? Another: Last year, the Charlotte Observer did an award-winning series on the corruption, greed, politics and abusive treatment taking place inside North Carolina's prisons. The work by "the media" in that situation led to changes in the system. Another: ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski is an outstanding journalist; he's well-connected, has a ton of sources, and is quite often the first to break significant news on his beat. If folks lump him in with MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell because both are in "the media," that's on the lumpers, not the lumpee.
"Media" is a big term. Sean Hannity, Rachel Maddow, Jeremy Schaap, Dickey Simpkins, the Channel 2 weatherman and the guy who writes a dozen articles a week for my local weekly newspaper are all part of "the media." But their jobs aren't exactly the same, are they?
What I've found is that when most people criticize "the media," they actually are criticizing:
++ Well-known TV personalities, such as the Fox News, MSNBC and CNN prime-time yakkers. People praise "the media" who agree with their POV, criticize those who don't.
++ Major metro newspapers, especially if the ideology (or perceived ideology) differs from their own.
++ TV opinion-givers and newspaper columnists. Many consumers of news do not know the difference between opinion-givers and reporters.
++ Those in the sports media, mostly TV but sometimes print, who supposedly "hate" the favorite team or supposedly "love" the rivals.
++ Pretty much anybody in "the media" who doesn't confirm a given news consumer's own beliefs.
I'm with you completely, 82. People pretend (or just are uninformed) that the media was honorable in the past. Just look back 100 years to the media landscape in NYC, Dozens of papers and they all looked for success by being more sensational than the next guy.
But I ALWAYS disregard people who equate everyone in the media. They simply are not bright enough to discuss the subject.
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yeah, that's what a no-talent hack like Joy Reid is screaming. "Bias."
And, like I said, the story was further amplified by other social media bloggers. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/gabby-petito-van-wyoming-blogger-b1923783.html
The "other" social media bloggers didn't amplify it. They added to the narrative after this was already huge. It was only because of the massive around the clock media coverage that these "other" social media bloggers even realized they crossed paths with them.
Gabby had 1000 instagram followers before the media blew things up. She started her youtube channel/videos in mid August. She barely even started vlogging before she went missing.
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My guess is Woodward and Bernstein’s reporting would be received completely differently today even if done in the exact same manner.
We’ve changed as much if not more than ‘the media’.
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I'm with you completely, 82. People pretend (or just are uninformed) that the media was honorable in the past. Just look back 100 years to the media landscape in NYC, Dozens of papers and they all looked for success by being more sensational than the next guy.
But I ALWAYS disregard people who equate everyone in the media. They simply are not bright enough to discuss the subject.
Remember the Maine
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My guess is Woodward and Bernstein’s reporting would be received completely differently today even if done in the exact same manner.
We’ve changed as much if not more than ‘the media’.
Outstanding point, FLD.
It's been an interesting discussion about the media here, and I'm glad we're having it even though I disagree with quite a bit of it.
IMHO, we have a little too much romanticizing the past, and we have way too much generalizing about the present.
Great journalism, even important journalism, is taking place every single day. It's happening in large newsrooms and in small community settings. It's happening in fully online operations and even still in print/broadcast areas. The Associated Press, one of my former employers, is still a beacon of truth and objectivity.
But yes, there is a lot of non-objective, often entertainment-based media. And yes, many lines have gotten blurred over the years. And consumers
Tribal behavior has always existed -- my tribe is right, and yours is wrong; our viewpoint is truth, and yours is filled with lies -- but it's turbocharged now. And many media outlets are expressly designed to take advantage of it.
I agree with much of the criticism of much of the media. But I continue to say that the lumping together of Tucker, Morning Joe, Bayless, Stephen A, and award-winning journalists as "the media" -- and then extending that to say "the media sucks" -- is inaccurate, lacking in context and over-the-top generalizing.
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I'm with you completely, 82. People pretend (or just are uninformed) that the media was honorable in the past. Just look back 100 years to the media landscape in NYC, Dozens of papers and they all looked for success by being more sensational than the next guy.
But I ALWAYS disregard people who equate everyone in the media. They simply are not bright enough to discuss the subject.
First of all, you guys missed the nuance in what I said. Yes, bias in the media always has been there. The Spanish-American War was fought over hysteria created by sensationalist media. William Randolph Hearst tried to be President through his newspapers (didn't work). Col. Robert McCormick was one of the most biased newspaper publishers this country has ever seen.
The nuance was that from the 1960s through the 1980s, there was much more of a focus on trying to be a complete source of news. Objective, clear and concise. As one of the Houston newspapers said, "Written and edited to merit your confidence.." Brother MUs own Daily Hearld had a slogan, "fear God, Tell the Truth and Make Money (not necessarily in that order.)" Kinda describes what used to be.
While I don't disagree there are some truly great journalists today, as I noted earlier, the cost of good journalism in an era of fewer readers/viewers and shrinking ad bases is prohibitive. My "hometown" newspaper, the Tennessean is a rag compared to what John Seigenthaler published back in the day. Yes, it was badly overwritten but the Tennessean was an incredible newspaper. The Chicago Tribune turns out an occasional story worthy of its recent past but by and large, it looks and reads like the Dubuque Telegraph Herald circa 1980.
People who read papers and watch television want crap. Period. By and large, that's what they get. That's why Dateline went from being a 60 Minutes clone to being all crime all the time. Ditto for 20/20. That's why Petito is a big deal.
As I said before, the market speaks!
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First of all, you guys missed the nuance in what I said. Yes, bias in the media always has been there. The Spanish-American War was fought over hysteria created by sensationalist media. William Randolph Hearst tried to be President through his newspapers (didn't work). Col. Robert McCormick was one of the most biased newspaper publishers this country has ever seen.
The nuance was that from the 1960s through the 1980s, there was much more of a focus on trying to be a complete source of news. Objective, clear and concise. As one of the Houston newspapers said, "Written and edited to merit your confidence.." Brother MUs own Daily Hearld had a slogan, "fear God, Tell the Truth and Make Money (not necessarily in that order.)" Kinda describes what used to be.
While I don't disagree there are some truly great journalists today, as I noted earlier, the cost of good journalism in an era of fewer readers/viewers and shrinking ad bases is prohibitive. My "hometown" newspaper, the Tennessean is a rag compared to what John Seigenthaler published back in the day. Yes, it was badly overwritten but the Tennessean was an incredible newspaper. The Chicago Tribune turns out an occasional story worthy of its recent past but by and large, it looks and reads like the Dubuque Telegraph Herald circa 1980.
People who read papers and watch television want crap. Period. By and large, that's what they get. That's why Dateline went from being a 60 Minutes clone to being all crime all the time. Ditto for 20/20. That's why Petito is a big deal.
As I said before, the market speaks!
You are spending way too much time worried about media that is delivered via traditional formats. Those formats have died because they are largely inconvenient and relatively expensive. IMO there is A LOT of good media out there on the ole internet, but we are also inundated by so much junk because the barrier to entry is near zero and no one is regulating the truth. (Which is absolutely fine BTW.) It calls upon the reader to be skeptical and not simply consume what is put in front of them.
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Brother MUs own Daily Hearld
If you're referring to me, I never worked for the Daily Herald; and I didn't live in its delivery area, so I rarely read it. I subscribed to the Tribune and Sun Times when I lived in Chicago. I did have many friends who worked in the Herald's sports department, though, most notably Tim Sassone, Mike Imrem and Bruce Miles.
And I still think you are making way too many generalizations. There is a lot of great journalism produced by objective, talented reporters every day. And thank goodness for that.
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If you're referring to me, I never worked for the Daily Herald; and I didn't live in its delivery area, so I rarely read it. I subscribed to the Tribune and Sun Times when I lived in Chicago. I did have many friends who worked in the Herald's sports department, though, most notably Tim Sassone, Mike Imrem and Bruce Miles.
And I still think you are making way too many generalizations. There is a lot of great journalism produced by objective, talented reporters every day. And thank goodness for that.
My apologies. I really thought you did.
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The nuance was that from the 1960s through the 1980s, there was much more of a focus on trying to be a complete source of news. Objective, clear and concise. As one of the Houston newspapers said, "Written and edited to merit your confidence.." Brother MUs own Daily Hearld had a slogan, "fear God, Tell the Truth and Make Money (not necessarily in that order.)" Kinda describes what used to be.
Too many people don't want truth anymore. There are 10s of millions of news consumers who believe that there are "alternative facts". Of course these are people that are not smart enough to even know the definition of the word 'fact', but they are a huge market clamoring for their kind of news.
Daily, I consume Breitbart, Fox, MSNBC, NYT, and others. Some look for truth and publish the truth daily - others are simply catering to what there consumers want and believe and the truth is not even a factor in what they publish.
There are still news sources that cover a wide spectrum of news and do it with honest reporting.
This all reminds me of the narrative about lawyers. Everyone wants to make fun of them....., until they need one. There are ambulance chasers and there are brilliant attorneys - as well as the full spectrum in-between. Journalism is much the same. If you want good reporting, it is easy to find. If you want hacks to reinforce what you believe, it is even easier.
Lazy, uninformed people get their news from Facebook. Wise people know where to find true journalism.
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Well, actually, I am a Gator fan, but love the sentiment.
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Well, actually, I am a Gator fan, but love the sentiment.
Q. Why does Florida play in the Swamp?
A. Because evolution never got down that far!
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There are still news sources that cover a wide spectrum of news and do it with honest reporting.
This all reminds me of the narrative about lawyers. Everyone wants to make fun of them....., until they need one. There are ambulance chasers and there are brilliant attorneys - as well as the full spectrum in-between. Journalism is much the same. If you want good reporting, it is easy to find. If you want hacks to reinforce what you believe, it is even easier.
Lazy, uninformed people get their news from Facebook. Wise people know where to find true journalism.
Yes. This. Of course.
I mean, let's start with the Associated Press. I think many here who are pining for the days of "real journalism" might actually find AP's work boring because it's not sensational and because its primary goal is not to "entertain" readers. (They do have columnists who provide opinions and analysis, too.) For 175 years, AP has reported the news objectively and professionally. And most news organizations, big and small, still subscribe to AP's service. In addition to the day-to-day stuff, they do investigative work, they have sportswriters in every major city, they have reporting staffs in every state capitol and every international capitol, and they have the best and biggest photo network in the world.
There are plenty of other sources for good journalism ... but for those who really want "just the facts, ma'am," AP has a free service available to the public that will send every day's top stories right to email inboxes.
That's just one example. As you said, Jockey, those who really want good reporting -- rather than those who say they do but actually like the sensational and/or partisan stuff -- can find it quite easily.
(Disclosure: I worked for AP for 18 years.)
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You are spending way too much time worried about media that is delivered via traditional formats. Those formats have died because they are largely inconvenient and relatively expensive. IMO there is A LOT of good media out there on the ole internet, but we are also inundated by so much junk because the barrier to entry is near zero and no one is regulating the truth. (Which is absolutely fine BTW.) It calls upon the reader to be skeptical and not simply consume what is put in front of them.
I saw a good comparison noting that entities that value objective reality tend to be behind a paywall, and those with who pay no mind to objective truth are not.
The truth costs money. Lies, fantasy, and fodder to confirm existing biases are free.
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You forgot
4. No one is "screaming racism."
They are pointing out bias.
What about the bias of most of the media not covering the #1 cause of black death in our country by far? Do their lives matter?
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What about the bias of most of the media not covering the #1 cause of black death in our country by far? Do their lives matter?
Heart disease?
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Heart disease?
My bad. I mean the #1 cause ages 12-25. No one ever talks about it and peoples lives are being shattered. Instead, we all know what the media focuses on.
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My bad. I mean the #1 cause ages 12-25. No one ever talks about it and peoples lives are being shattered. Instead, we all know what the media focuses on.
Nobody talks about homicide?
Are you literally high right now?
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My bad. I mean the #1 cause ages 12-25. No one ever talks about it and peoples lives are being shattered. Instead, we all know what the media focuses on.
WTF media are you watching? It’s talked about all the time.
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My bad. I mean the #1 cause ages 12-25. No one ever talks about it and peoples lives are being shattered. Instead, we all know what the media focuses on.
It’s covered extensively, Muggs.
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I for one have never, NEVER, heard anyone say anything about violent crime or homicide in Chicago. Never once.
Also, I'm confident media outlets like Breitbart and The Federalist don't have things like "Black crime" as a tag for their stories, but just to be safe I won't check so I can maintain my preconceived notion that nobody on earth is talking about this issue.
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I for one have never, NEVER, heard anyone say anything about violent crime or homicide in Chicago. Never once.
Also, I'm confident media outlets like Breitbart and The Federalist don't have things like "Black crime" as a tag for their stories, but just to be safe I won't check so I can maintain my preconceived notion that nobody on earth is talking about this issue.
Are you kidding me?
Let me introduce you to the NBC5 news at 10. It comes on at 10:00 p.m., and the first 12 minutes are all about crime and murder in Chicago. There's a blonde middle aged, syrupy sweet anchorwoman (the Lovely Allison) paired with a late 20-something news reader (Rob Elgas). They send the lovely Natalie out into the vicious neighborhoods of Chicago wearing horned rimmed glasses to pretend she's smart. She interviews survivors who scream about gun violence, cry on the air and generally make good crime TV.
OK, I'm cynical. But the NBC5 News at 10:00 p.m., has become the local version of Dateline.
People are talking about the murders, the shootings, the crime and the assaults constantly. Kim Foxx, our local state's attorney -- love her or hate her -- is in the news very frequently. That Smollet Dude is regularly cropping up too. To say it's not covered and not talked about is to have your head in the sand.
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For the love of Arby's people. Use Teal!
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Yeah, that one was pretty obviously sarcasm.
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Are you kidding me?
Let me introduce you to the NBC5 news at 10. It comes on at 10:00 p.m., and the first 12 minutes are all about crime and murder in Chicago. There's a blonde middle aged, syrupy sweet anchorwoman (the Lovely Allison) paired with a late 20-something news reader (Rob Elgas). They send the lovely Natalie out into the vicious neighborhoods of Chicago wearing horned rimmed glasses to pretend she's smart. She interviews survivors who scream about gun violence, cry on the air and generally make good crime TV.
OK, I'm cynical. But the NBC5 News at 10:00 p.m., has become the local version of Dateline.
People are talking about the murders, the shootings, the crime and the assaults constantly. Kim Foxx, our local state's attorney -- love her or hate her -- is in the news very frequently. That Smollet Dude is regularly cropping up too. To say it's not covered and not talked about is to have your head in the sand.
I am SO glad that the closest I get to Chicago these days is to go to an airport.
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You can all pretend that the general media covers this issue extensively, want solutions, and are outraged like other things, but they aren't. They would rather talk about a lot of other stuff that combined aren't close to the problem of homicide in our major cities. And you all know this full well just as you know the complete incompetence of this administration which has nothing to do with the incompetence of the past administration.
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I am SO glad that the closest I get to Chicago these days is to go to an airport.
Dgies hasn’t spent much time in Chicago either. Rob Elgas is hardly 20something nor has he been on NBC5 in over 7 years. In fact, he is mid-forties and on ABC7. Allison is pushing 60. I guess that is middle-aged for some living on the great Bob Gibson memories. Perhaps we can excuse Dgies as he is rightly delusionally high on his Cardinals current win streak versus AA and AAA call ups, and Yadi’s .253 batting average.
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You can all pretend that the general media covers this issue extensively, want solutions, and are outraged like other things, but they aren't. They would rather talk about a lot of other stuff that combined aren't close to the problem of homicide in our major cities. And you all know this full well just as you know the complete incompetence of this administration which has nothing to do with the incompetence of the past administration.
That sure is a lot of "BDS," Muggs. And it's funny that you bring up "whataboutism" within a conversation in which you yourself used whataboutism.
Even though the "general media" does cover Black-on-Black crime, it probably doesn't need to. Because every time a cop unnecessarily kills a Black person, the "reverse racism is worse than real racism" crowd shouts: "Yeah ... but what about Black-on-Black crime, huh? What about it? Come on, what about it?!?!?!"
Because I guess the existence of Black-on-Black crime somehow means the death of Black people at the hands of cops is less meaningful?
In a similar vein, whenever 1/6/21 is mentioned, the knee-jerk reaction from some is: "Yeah, but what about those BLM riots?!?!?!" As if the latter had anything to do with the President of the United States inciting a deadly coup attempt against the U.S. government.
But sure, yes, Black-on-Black crime exists, and it's bad, and the media does cover it, and Black leaders are working hard to try to contain it. It's a serious problem and a difficult issue.
But yeah ... Afghanistan!
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That sure is a lot of "BDS," Muggs. And it's funny that you bring up "whataboutism" within a conversation in which you yourself used whataboutism.
Even though the "general media" does cover Black-on-Black crime, it probably doesn't need to. Because every time a cop unnecessarily kills a Black person, the "reverse racism is worse than real racism" crowd shouts: "Yeah ... but what about Black-on-Black crime, huh? What about it? Come on, what about it?!?!?!"
Because I guess the existence of Black-on-Black crime somehow means the death of Black people at the hands of cops is less meaningful?
In a similar vein, whenever 1/6/21 is mentioned, the knee-jerk reaction from some is: "Yeah, but what about those BLM riots?!?!?!" As if the latter had anything to do with the President of the United States inciting a deadly coup attempt against the U.S. government.
But sure, yes, Black-on-Black crime exists, and it's bad, and the media does cover it, and Black leaders are working hard to try to contain it. It's a serious problem and a difficult issue.
But yeah ... Afghanistan!
It's "whataboutism" if I reply to a post that others take a topic, but not if you do or anyone else. And it's way more than Afghanistan which is an abomination. as I'm sure you agree. This man is beyobd incompetent and as corrupt as Trump. Oh....and it was so sweet for Big-Tech to block the Hunter laptop story which is 100% true. He's a criminal and his old man has known this for a long time.
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You can all pretend that the general media covers this issue extensively, want solutions, and are outraged like other things, but they aren't. They would rather talk about a lot of other stuff that combined aren't close to the problem of homicide in our major cities. And you all know this full well just as you know the complete incompetence of this administration which has nothing to do with the incompetence of the past administration.
So after getting spiked on your claim they never talk about it, you shifted the goalposts to say they don't talk abut it enough. And then make a political statement that isn't relevant.
Fun stuff.
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It's "whataboutism" if I reply to a post that others take a topic, but not if you do or anyone else. And it's way more than Afghanistan which is an abomination. as I'm sure you agree. This man is beyobd incompetent and as corrupt as Trump. Oh....and it was so sweet for Big-Tech to block the Hunter laptop story which is 100% true. He's a criminal and his old man has known this for a long time.
Cool. But what about Trump?
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It's "whataboutism" if I reply to a post that others take a topic, but not if you do or anyone else. And it's way more than Afghanistan which is an abomination. as I'm sure you agree. This man is beyobd incompetent and as corrupt as Trump. Oh....and it was so sweet for Big-Tech to block the Hunter laptop story which is 100% true. He's a criminal and his old man has known this for a long time.
Dude, you already got a topic locked within five minutes of creating it because it was overly political. Now apparently you want to get this one locked too.
Just stop please.
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So after getting spiked on your claim they never talk about it, you shifted the goalposts to say they don't talk abut it enough. And then make a political statement that isn't relevant.
Fun stuff.
I'm the only person that "shifts goalposts" on a thread? Gimmie a break FBM. You should welcome all discourse.
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Yeah, that one was pretty obviously sarcasm.
Apparently I didn't go hard enough on it.
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I'm the only person that "shifts goalposts" on a thread? Gimmie a break FBM. You should welcome all discourse.
I don't appreciate intellectual dishonesty, which is what you are engaging in right now.
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I don't appreciate intellectual dishonesty, which is what you are engaging in right now.
LOL. When I think of intellectual honesty my first thought is Joe Biden and Jen Psaki. It's not my fault FBM that you support a clown show and only want people parroting your takes.
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LOL. When I think of intellectual honesty my first thought is Joe Biden and Jen Psaki. It's not my fault FBM that you support a clown show and only want people parroting your takes.
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LOL. When I think of intellectual honesty my first thought is Joe Biden and Jen Psaki. It's not my fault FBM that you support a clown show and only want people parroting your takes.
No, you are doing it again. Very sad. Let's review...
When I said that no one was screaming racism when it comes to covering this story, and that it was just pointing out bias, you changed the subject to inner-city violence and said that "no one ever talks about it."
So you changed topics AND said something demonstrably false.
When multiple people pointed out that what you said was false, you changed your argument AGAIN, and then made multiple political comments. For what reason? Perhaps it's a defense mechanism you use instead of taking the L when it was warranted? Who knows.
I have no desire to have people parroting my takes. I have a desire for people to use the intellect and logic they supposedly learned at my alma mater. Right now, you are falling short. Be better.
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No, you are doing it again. Very sad. Let's review...
When I said that no one was screaming racism when it comes to covering this story, and that it was just pointing out bias, you changed the subject to inner-city violence and said that "no one ever talks about it."
So you changed topics AND said something demonstrably false.
When multiple people pointed out that what you said was false, you changed your argument AGAIN, and then made multiple political comments. For what reason? Perhaps it's a defense mechanism you use instead of taking the L when it was warranted? Who knows.
I have no desire to have people parroting my takes. I have a desire for people to use the intellect and logic they supposedly learned at my alma mater. Right now, you are falling short. Be better.
If then PoLiTiCs!