MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Scoop Snoop on June 21, 2021, 10:30:40 AM
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9-0 decision. How will this affect Marquette and the Big East vs. major conferences primarily consisting of state schools? Thoughts?
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https://twitter.com/smartfootball/status/1406986365405909001?s=19
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Money is just going to be moved around. Universities have been maxing out their expenses to match their revenues. The O Line coach at LSU makes 900K. Facilities have gone through the roof. Now some of that money will go to the kids.
Kids might now be working out in 15 year old facilities with some not as well paid coaches and then they'll hit Wintrust in the Union and cash some checks.
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Money is just going to be moved around. Universities have been maxing out their expenses to match their revenues. The O Line coach at LSU makes 900K. Facilities have gone through the roof. Now some of that money will go to the kids.
Kids might now be working out in 15 year old facilities with some not as well paid coaches and then they'll hit Wintrust in the Union and cash some checks.
This or there'll be more team sponsors like Michigan State just did.
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A new professional minor league?
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Money is just going to be moved around. Universities have been maxing out their expenses to match their revenues. The O Line coach at LSU makes 900K. Facilities have gone through the roof. Now some of that money will go to the kids.
Kids might now be working out in 15 year old facilities with some not as well paid coaches and then they'll hit Wintrust in the Union and cash some checks.
So, you're saying the money to compensate athletes has been there all along, and athletic departments won't all collapse?
Huh. The NCAA and its apologists have been spinning a very different story for years.
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A new professional minor league?
It's not new and it's always been professional for virtually everyone involved except for the players.
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no, they didn't. They said colleges can't cap the amount of educational expenses, so now laptops, musical instruments (how often does that come up?) and other things that currently come out of the Student Athlete Opportunity Fund can now be part of the scholarship and not limited.
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no, they didn't. They said colleges can't cap the amount of educational expenses, so now laptops, musical instruments (how often does that come up?) and other things that currently come out of the Student Athlete Opportunity Fund can now be part of the scholarship and not limited.
You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
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You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
The NCAA got the equivalent of Ohio State 59 Wisconsin 0
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Negotiate salaries? How about walk-ons? Non profit sport athletes seem to put in the same effort and bring prestige to the University. Hopefully they are included.
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Does this apply to Hs athletes?
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Does this apply to Hs athletes?
I would imagine if HS athletes don't have to worry about maintaining amateur status, this would apply to them.
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Negotiate salaries? How about walk-ons? Non profit sport athletes seem to put in the same effort and bring prestige to the University. Hopefully they are included.
The NCAA shouldn't be able to cap what they make. Doesn't mean anyone will want to pay those athletes anything.
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Negotiate salaries? How about walk-ons? Non profit sport athletes seem to put in the same effort and bring prestige to the University. Hopefully they are included.
They're not excluded, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many schools interested in providing additional compensation to the hardworking members of the cross country and bowling teams (regardless of how much prestige a winning cross country season may bring).
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Does this apply to Hs athletes?
From the parts of the decision that I've read, I think the argument boils down to profitability. Most major schools (and the NCAA in general) make a pretty hefty profit off of their football and basketball athletes. To the courts, those athletes should be seen as employees, and even factoring in things like scholarships, room & board, etc., they're being paid well below market rate. You could say that basketball players have a choice if they don't like it (particularly now with the G-League, etc.), but football doesn't really provide that option.
At the high school level, if a school district is making a significant profit off of sports teams (and, thus, the athletes on those teams), I think the same argument would apply. That certainly happens in some rare instances, but more often than not, high school sports aren't going to be profitable for the district. The same could be said for just about every other college sport outside of football and basketball.
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Pay them salaries and then charge for tuition, room & board, academic assistance, travel and incidentals.
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Pay them salaries and then charge for tuition, room & board, academic assistance, travel and incidentals.
Major universities made their own beds years ago when they decided to make athletics a part of their institutions. They didn’t do it to expand educational opportunities. They did it for prestige and money. It’s never been about education and never will be. That became the crutch because at one time America had this weird obsession with amateurism and it became part of the culture. Times change and people caught on. Adapt or slowly fade away
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Pay them salaries and then charge for tuition, room & board, academic assistance, travel and incidentals.
That'd be a bad strategy for Marquette. We should pay the good basketball players as much as we're able to.
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Pay them salaries and then charge for tuition, room & board, academic assistance, travel and incidentals.
Ummm Larry Williams, please report to either Messrs Topper or Mr. Rocky to turn in your Scoop ID, Key Card & Walking Boot. While you may just be day drinking (ENCOURAGED), you've certainly had your fill and need to leave. Also, you have violated the terms of the agreement, no refund for dues already paid.
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You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
And next comes the IRS...
The separation of football and basketball teams from the schools is right around the corner.
Michigan State is ahead of the curve due to the $.5 billion they have to pay out.
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America had this weird obsession with amateurism and it became part of the culture. Times change and people caught on. Adapt or slowly fade away
This is exactly what happened with the Olympics. They spent decades making believe they were all about amateurism and finally had to face reality.
It hasn't "ruined" the Olympics at all. And it wouldn't "ruin" college sports.
It will change college sports, though, absolutely. As did letting Black athletes compete, as did giving women some semblance of equality(ish), as did letting freshmen be eligible immediately, etc.
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So a couple questions. A team like North Dakota has an extremely profitable Hockey team, do they get to pay their athletes but Northern Michigan doesn't?
Following that question, if a high school program has a once in a generation talent that makes them extremely profitable (Lebronlike), do they pay each player on the team or just that once in a generation talent?
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And next comes the IRS...
The separation of football and basketball teams from the schools is right around the corner.
Michigan State is ahead of the curve due to the $.5 billion they have to pay out.
The slippery slope fallacies have arrived in the chat.
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The slippery slope fallacies have arrived in the chat.
What fallacy did I state?
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This is exactly what happened with the Olympics. They spent decades making believe they were all about amateurism and finally had to face reality.
It hasn't "ruined" the Olympics at all. And it wouldn't "ruin" college sports.
It will change college sports, though, absolutely. As did letting Black athletes compete, as did giving women some semblance of equality(ish), as did letting freshmen be eligible immediately, etc.
I bet it changes college sports a lot less than the people think when it comes to what is on the court or field of play
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What fallacy did I state?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
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The separation of football and basketball teams from the schools is right around the corner.
What does "right around the corner" mean? Next season? 5 years? 10? 25? 50? Need to mark my calendar.
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You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
Yep. A 9-0 ruling from what is often described as a deeply divided court is about as subtle as a sledge hammer in motion.
In Gasaway's book, he mentions that early in the past century the idea of paying the athletes a portion of the proceeds from some tourneys was floated, then sunk.
(minor edit for punctuation.)
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You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
the athletes are going to love it when they have to pay taxes on their $80,000 scholarships.
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the athletes are going to love it when they have to pay taxes on their $80,000 scholarships.
Nah.
Tax-Free
If you receive a scholarship, a fellowship grant, or other grant, all or part of the amounts you receive may be tax-free. Scholarships, fellowship grants, and other grants are tax-free if you meet the following conditions:
You're a candidate for a degree at an educational institution that maintains a regular faculty and curriculum and normally has a regularly enrolled body of students in attendance at the place where it carries on its educational activities; and
The amounts you receive are used to pay for tuition and fees required for enrollment or attendance at the educational institution, or for fees, books, supplies, and equipment required for courses at the educational institution.
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc421
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the athletes are going to love it when they have to pay taxes on their $80,000 scholarships.
Smart universities will account for that. Dumb ones won’t and they’ll have to fight for the leftovers.
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the athletes are going to love it when they have to pay taxes on their $80,000 scholarships.
I thought a portion of their scholarship was taxable already, just like any other scholarship. The amount to pay for non qualified expenses, and room and board.
edited for epelling
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
Ha! I thought so.
When you have some intelligent thoughts on the issue, we'd like to hear them.
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Smart universities will account for that. Dumb ones won’t and they’ll have to fight for the leftovers.
Account for them how? I assume you mean paying them more? Seriously interested because I probably missing something.
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Ha! I thought so.
When you have some intelligent thoughts on the issue, we'd like to hear them.
Yeah, the guy trying to tie this to Michigan State's Nassar settlement is the one with intelligent thoughts on the issue.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/109bb4a3b2cbd7b1cf4b7c2291de50ea/tenor.gif)
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Account for them how? I assume you mean paying them more? Seriously interested because I probably missing something.
That will be for the lawyers and accountants to figure out. Any conference or university worth anything has been planning for this day for a long time.
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I thought a portion of their scholarship was taxable already, just like any other scholarship. The amount to pay for non qualified expenses, and room and board.
edited for epelling
I hope this was intentional
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I hope this was intentional
yas
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Is it reasonable to assume that under Title IX that anything given to the Football and MBB will also have to make its way to other sports? In the simplest of terms based on what SCOTUS was addressing (i.e., educational expenses) if all the football players get new laptops, would other athletes need to get the same. Then, if it gets into payment down the road...will that all be addressed through Title IX?
Also, since this is being viewed through an antitrust lens, does that have any implications on the current scholarship limits? If the NCAA can't conspire to limit compensation, can they conspire to limit the number of athletes receiving compensation?
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They're not excluded, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many schools interested in providing additional compensation to the hardworking members of the cross country and bowling teams (regardless of how much prestige a winning cross country season may bring).
So the cross country and bowling teams have student athletes and the men's basketball team has MU employees?
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Is it reasonable to assume that under Title IX that anything given to the Football and MBB will also have to make its way to other sports? In the simplest of terms based on what SCOTUS was addressing (i.e., educational expenses) if all the football players get new laptops, would other athletes need to get the same. Then, if it gets into payment down the road...will that all be addressed through Title IX?
Title IX really isn't the barrier it's made out to be. The law bars discrimination, including in athletic opportunities and allocation of athletic scholarships. It's largely silent on any compensation or benefit beyond that.
If it were extended to all benefits/compensation, then there would be no football/basketball dorms or training facilities; or men's basketball coaches who earn 10 times more than the women's basketball coach, etc.
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Is it reasonable to assume that under Title IX that anything given to the Football and MBB will also have to make its way to other sports? In the simplest of terms based on what SCOTUS was addressing (i.e., educational expenses) if all the football players get new laptops, would other athletes need to get the same. Then, if it gets into payment down the road...will that all be addressed through Title IX?
Without getting into the weeds too much, no, I don't think TIX will come into play here. With a few caveats, TIX requires equal allocation of resources between men's and women's sports...not that those resources be the same...or distributed over the same number of athletes or same number of sports.
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So the cross country and bowling teams have student athletes and the men's basketball team has MU employees?
Why not all employees?
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Does this take effect immediately?
For instance, could we make an offer to Garcia today to entice him to come back?
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Does this take effect immediately?
For instance, could we make an offer to Garcia today to entice him to come back?
Only if he plays the tuba!
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Why not all employees?
Would someone be an employee if they weren't paid.
Maybe we should call them volunteers or interns?
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Yeah, the guy trying to tie this to Michigan State's Nassar settlement is the one with intelligent thoughts on the issue.
(https://media.tenor.com/images/109bb4a3b2cbd7b1cf4b7c2291de50ea/tenor.gif)
Sorry you missed the point being made. Maybe next time.
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Sorry you missed the point being made. Maybe next time.
Posting a pic of a white flag would have just been easier.
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You're missing the forest through the trees.
While that's the upshot of this ruling, it's because that is the limited issue on which the court was asked to rule.
But if you read the decision and the concurrence, the writing is on the wall for the NCAA. The court is telling them that a) athletes are employees and b) the NCAA is subject to antitrust regulations like any other business. If and when a case arrives challenging the NCAA's ban on other forms of compensation, the court has dropped a pretty huge hint on where it's going to come down.
Agreed. The NCAA was foolish to appeal the (narrow) decision.
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Posting a pic of a white flag would have just been easier.
Great, two people with reading comprehension issues.
If anyone has problems with what I originally posted I'd welcome intelligent comments.
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Great, two people with reading comprehension issues.
If anyone has problems with what I originally posted I'd welcome intelligent comments.
I asked what your definition of "around the corner" is for basketball/football being separated from universities. I'm honestly curious how quickly you think this will happen.
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I asked what your definition of "around the corner" is for basketball/football being separated from universities. I'm honestly curious how quickly you think this will happen.
It won’t. This idea ignores why colleges and universities sponsor Athletics to begin with.
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Great, two people with reading comprehension issues.
No, it's still just one, but not the one you think it is.
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I think it is pretty obvious that when you read this opinion, that the Court's attitude about the NCAA has changed quite a bit since the 1984 Board of Regents' ruling, mostly because of the massive amounts of money that has entered the system. I am pretty sure that this ruling would be different had we still be talking about 1984 money instead of 2021 money.
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I think it is pretty obvious that when you read this opinion, that the Court's attitude about the NCAA has changed quite a bit since the 1984 Board of Regents' ruling, mostly because of the massive amounts of money that has entered the system. I am pretty sure that this ruling would be different had we still be talking about 1984 money instead of 2021 money.
Yep, because central to the ruling is that the NCAA model prevents athletes from obtaining their true market value.
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So what is the practical effect of this decision. The players can negotiate a percentage of sales from the spirit shop with their numbers/names on MU gear? Coaches can give a recruit a t-shirt or ride to the airport? A player can go to a baseball game with a fellow classmate who has an extra ticket? Just wondering?
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So what is the practical effect of this decision. The players can negotiate a percentage of sales from the spirit shop with their numbers/names on MU gear? Coaches can give a recruit a t-shirt or ride to the airport? A player can go to a baseball game with a fellow classmate who has an extra ticket? Just wondering?
I think this one forced Pilarz to put down the poetry book, call Larry onto the carpet and make him finally do his job.
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So what is the practical effect of this decision. The players can negotiate a percentage of sales from the spirit shop with their numbers/names on MU gear? Coaches can give a recruit a t-shirt or ride to the airport? A player can go to a baseball game with a fellow classmate who has an extra ticket? Just wondering?
The importance is in the opinion, it basically tells ncaa they better figure out how to properly compensate athletes or on the next one, coming soon, if that isn't done they'll use Thor's hammer on ncaa
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From the parts of the decision that I've read, I think the argument boils down to profitability. Most major schools (and the NCAA in general) make a pretty hefty profit off of their football and basketball athletes. To the courts, those athletes should be seen as employees, and even factoring in things like scholarships, room & board, etc., they're being paid well below market rate. You could say that basketball players have a choice if they don't like it (particularly now with the G-League, etc.), but football doesn't really provide that option.
At the high school level, if a school district is making a significant profit off of sports teams (and, thus, the athletes on those teams), I think the same argument would apply. That certainly happens in some rare instances, but more often than not, high school sports aren't going to be profitable for the district. The same could be said for just about every other college sport outside of football and basketball.
For HS sports, I think the main application will be allowing private schools to provide scholarships without proving need by the student receiving it.
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Does this take effect immediately?
For instance, could we make an offer to Garcia today to entice him to come back?
Yes, we can all sign a pledge to never mention him again in a Scoop thread.
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New company formed to help athletes navigate NIL. I'm sure this will not be the only one.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/sports/ncaa-student-athletes-name-image-likeness-industry