MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Not A Serious Person on April 05, 2021, 10:48:36 PM

Title: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Not A Serious Person on April 05, 2021, 10:48:36 PM
Young Coaches can take a while (sometimes a decade) to figure it out

Scott Drew was hired in 2003. 

His first six seasons.

Overall 81-95
B12 24-70
NCAA zero
Best NIT runner up

Wojo first six seasons

Overall 124-93
BE 59-68
NCAA zero
Best NIT Quarters

Baylor was patient with Drew and it paid off.  MU was not with Wojo.

Now MU has a new young coach.  How patient will they be with him?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Pakuni on April 05, 2021, 10:49:26 PM
Some might suggest they stepped into very different circumstances.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Not A Serious Person on April 05, 2021, 10:50:47 PM
Both programs were a mess when they started.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Pakuni on April 05, 2021, 10:51:39 PM
Both programs were a mess when they started.

No.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: monkeyman34 on April 05, 2021, 10:52:00 PM
How many scholarship restrictions did wojo walk into?  Who on the previous years MU team murdered someone?  Shaka has 12 years of head coaching experience.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on April 05, 2021, 10:52:48 PM
Some might suggest they stepped into very different circumstances.

One also worked for the dirtiest athletic department in the country. Has its perks.

But comparing Wojo to Drew is dumb.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: monkeyman34 on April 05, 2021, 10:55:54 PM
One also worked for the dirtiest athletic department in the country. Has its perks.

But comparing Wojo to Drew is dumb.

Valparaiso is one of the dirtiest athletic departments?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 05, 2021, 11:15:11 PM
Both programs were a mess when they started.



Comparing Marquette in 2014 with Baylor in 2003 is just silly. We had won 7 NCAA tournament games within the previous four years. A lot happened during Buzz’s last year, but we were still a household name in big-time college hoops. Baylor had completely fallen off the map when Drew showed up.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MDMU04 on April 05, 2021, 11:15:24 PM
Oh boy! Another thread about the perils of not being patient enough with Wojo!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MU82 on April 05, 2021, 11:25:04 PM
Both programs were a mess when they started.

This is Grade A Dribble, even for you!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: buckchuckler on April 05, 2021, 11:34:50 PM
Did a MU player murder a teammate?  I must have missed that somehow.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 05, 2021, 11:36:24 PM
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thread in Heisey history. Hard to believe, I’ll concede. But quite possibly...
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Billy Hoyle on April 06, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
Did a MU player murder a teammate?  I must have missed that somehow.

Amazingly, the murder wasn’t the most scandalous part of the story.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: wadesworld on April 06, 2021, 12:09:21 AM
Heise needs some attention in his life so it’s time for some shock value on Scoop.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MUHoopsFan2 on April 06, 2021, 12:13:13 AM
Young Coaches can take a while (sometimes a decade) to figure it out

Scott Drew was hired in 2003. 

His first six seasons.

Overall 81-95
B12 24-70
NCAA zero
Best NIT runner up

Wojo first six seasons

Overall 124-93
BE 59-68
NCAA zero
Best NIT Quarters

Baylor was patient with Drew and it paid off.  MU was not with Wojo.

Now MU has a new young coach.  How patient will they be with him?
Agreed...

Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TallTitan34 on April 06, 2021, 12:16:00 AM
Carton murdered Pauly Paulicap if that counts.

https://twitter.com/muoverload/status/1367196190987665416?s=21
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: JWags85 on April 06, 2021, 12:32:36 AM
Amazingly, the murder wasn’t the most scandalous part of the story.

Wut?!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MuggsyB on April 06, 2021, 12:33:33 AM
Carton murdered Pauly Paulicap if that counts.

https://twitter.com/muoverload/status/1367196190987665416?s=21

Carton is a tremendous athlete.  Hopefully he's back with an improved J and better decision making.  I would also like to see him become a lockdown defender.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: PointWarrior on April 06, 2021, 12:38:46 AM
Ok when I saw the graphic with 18 years of Scott Drew, I just knew someone would post this dumb crap implying Wojo should have been give more time. 

Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MUMonster03 on April 06, 2021, 02:21:49 AM
Also pretty convenient to cut the comparison at 6 years (even though you used Wojo's 7 year totals) since Drew's 7th year ended with an elite eight at Baylor.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Uncle Rico on April 06, 2021, 05:02:25 AM
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thread in Heisey history. Hard to believe, I’ll concede. But quite possibly...

It’s spectacular, really
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: #UnleashSean on April 06, 2021, 06:02:54 AM
A projo rises from the ashes!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on April 06, 2021, 07:01:54 AM
Why did you wait until after Scott Drew won a national championship to post something like this? It’s easy to be a “Monday morning quarterback” and draw comparisons and Hypotheticals.

Now you need to go do the same thing for Wojo and all the coaches who DIDNT  make the tournament
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 07:43:55 AM
Also pretty convenient to cut the comparison at 6 years (even though you used Wojo's 7 year totals) since Drew's 7th year ended with an elite eight at Baylor.


Exactly.  He's being intellectually dishonest again.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 06, 2021, 08:20:55 AM
Did a MU player murder a teammate?  I must have missed that somehow.

Some Scoopers think a murder that doesn’t make the papers is better than allegations of sexual assault (for which no charges are filed) hitting the Chicago Tribune.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on April 06, 2021, 08:23:53 AM
This thread takes the cake for stupid.


Good to get it out of the way really early into the offseason though. We can only go up from here.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 08:24:23 AM
Some Scoopers think a murder that doesn’t make the papers is better than allegations of sexual assault (for which no charges are filed) hitting the Chicago Tribune.


I am going to go out on a limb and say that both are pretty bad.  And I think most Scoopers would agree.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MUDPT on April 06, 2021, 08:32:20 AM
FWIW, Scott Drew was known to sleep on dirt floors when he was trying to recruit players in Africa at Valpo. Safe to say, that was not happening at Duke...
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on April 06, 2021, 08:43:53 AM
Some Scoopers think a murder that doesn’t make the papers is better than allegations of sexual assault (for which no charges are filed) hitting the Chicago Tribune.

Baylor has those too...it cost a football coach and the president of the university their jobs.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/baylor-ncaa-basketball-national-championship-scott-drew-11617715084 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/baylor-ncaa-basketball-national-championship-scott-drew-11617715084)

Neither are acceptable, but these words from the article are just stunning...the restrictions on that program following the incident were incremental to what happened at MU.  So yes, the 'basketball' situation was much much worse.

"One of its basketball players had murdered a teammate in June 2003. The previous coach, Dave Bliss, resigned when it emerged that he had attempted to frame the deceased as a drug dealer, a ploy to dispel allegations that some members of the team had accepted money to play."
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 06, 2021, 09:29:36 AM

This thread takes the cake for stupid.

Good to get it out of the way really early into the offseason though. We can only go up from here.



If only this was true....
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: muwarrior69 on April 06, 2021, 09:40:40 AM
One also worked for the dirtiest athletic department in the country. Has its perks.

But comparing Wojo to Drew is dumb stupid.

...which is what your actually meant.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Tyler COLEk on April 06, 2021, 09:41:43 AM
Thanks for creating this thread so all the “PrO-jOs ArE a StRaWmAn, ThEy DoN’t EvEn ExIsT” crowd can see.

By this logic, any bad-to-mediocre coach deserves what, 15 years of failure before being fired? Besides, Wojo’s regular season and tournament record are only one (big) reason he had to go.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Goose on April 06, 2021, 09:45:16 AM
Heisey with another winning thread. I am sure this comparison was discussed across the country last night.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Billy Hoyle on April 06, 2021, 09:47:17 AM
Wut?!

The murder was one thing (the murderer, Dotson, had mental issues) but what was worse was Bliss’ attempted cover up. He was caught on tape trying to get his assistant to paint the murder victim, Dennehy, as a drug dealer. Bliss did this because he’d been paying both under the table and was looking for a way to avoid questions as to how they could afford to be walk ons the previous season.

As a part of the cover up, Bliss flew, secretly, to convince another player’s family to lie about how they paid the kid’s tuition. The issue though was the kid didn’t know he wasn’t on scholarship. Bliss was paying it.

Oh yeah, the coach who busted Bliss was blacklisted. He hasn’t worked in college hoops since. Even the paragon of virtue, Coach K, called the guy out.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: joparks on April 06, 2021, 11:46:37 AM
People who make these types of arguments are similar to "hoarders".  They always fear they are somehow going to miss out on any value.  They never discard anything because they think some day it will be worth something.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
"Disgraced" is a pretty good watch.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/showtime-documentary-disgraced-resurfaces-story-of-murdered-player-at-baylor/amp/
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: CowtownWarrior on April 06, 2021, 12:09:54 PM
Young Coaches can take a while (sometimes a decade) to figure it out

Scott Drew was hired in 2003. 

His first six seasons.

Overall 81-95
B12 24-70
NCAA zero
Best NIT runner up

Wojo first six seasons

Overall 124-93
BE 59-68
NCAA zero
Best NIT Quarters

Baylor was patient with Drew and it paid off.  MU was not with Wojo.

Now MU has a new young coach.  How patient will they be with him?

I agree with Heisenberg.  I believe we needed to be more patient with Wojo.  We now have to be patient with our new young coach.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on April 06, 2021, 12:10:52 PM

Oh yeah, the coach who busted Bliss was blacklisted. He hasn’t worked in college hoops since. Even the paragon of virtue, Coach K, called the guy out.

I didn't know this part of the story. Disgusting
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: cheebs09 on April 06, 2021, 12:12:59 PM

Oh yeah, the coach who busted Bliss was blacklisted. He hasn’t worked in college hoops since. Even the paragon of virtue, Coach K, called the guy out.

The more I read and hear about Coach K, the more I realize he has done a wonderful job crafting his public image.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MUDPT on April 06, 2021, 12:13:26 PM
"Disgraced" is a pretty good watch.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/showtime-documentary-disgraced-resurfaces-story-of-murdered-player-at-baylor/amp/

It’s really good. Dennehy wasn’t ON scholarship and getting paid under the table. The NCAA investigators that had all of the dirt on Bliss at SMU, but decided that SMU had had enough after the football death penalty. The Sampson, Boeheim, coach K panel complaining about the assistant (who bliss was trying to blame for everything) for wearing a wire.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 12:19:32 PM
Yep.  Dave Bliss was an assistant at Army under Bobby Knight when Coach K was a player there.  Defended his guy.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: JWags85 on April 06, 2021, 12:24:07 PM
The murder was one thing (the murderer, Dotson, had mental issues) but what was worse was Bliss’ attempted cover up. He was caught on tape trying to get his assistant to paint the murder victim, Dennehy, as a drug dealer. Bliss did this because he’d been paying both under the table and was looking for a way to avoid questions as to how they could afford to be walk ons the previous season.

As a part of the cover up, Bliss flew, secretly, to convince another player’s family to lie about how they paid the kid’s tuition. The issue though was the kid didn’t know he wasn’t on scholarship. Bliss was paying it.

Oh yeah, the coach who busted Bliss was blacklisted. He hasn’t worked in college hoops since. Even the paragon of virtue, Coach K, called the guy out.

Oh fair play. I thought you meant more leading up to the murder.  But yeah, the coverup attempts were preposterous and gross.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: WhiteTrash on April 06, 2021, 01:02:15 PM
I agree with Heisenberg.  I believe we needed to be more patient with Wojo.  We now have to be patient with our new young coach.
Heisenberg's post was only mildly funny but now the joke has run its course.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: NickelDimer on April 06, 2021, 01:04:57 PM
Trolls gon troll
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 01:54:01 PM
Young Coaches can take a while (sometimes a decade) to figure it out

Scott Drew was hired in 2003. 

His first six seasons.

Overall 81-95
B12 24-70
NCAA zero
Best NIT runner up

Wojo first six seasons

Overall 124-93
BE 59-68
NCAA zero
Best NIT Quarters

Baylor was patient with Drew and it paid off.  MU was not with Wojo.

Now MU has a new young coach.  How patient will they be with him?

As usual, you cherry-pick with the best. Drew took over when players were literally murdering each other and the coach was conspiring in a coverup. Drug use was rampant. They received huge sanctions - the worst ever for a school without getting the "death penalty".

Yet, in years 4-6, Drew had a record of 60-42 despite having to start from a much, much worse place than Wojo.


So, you can pretend the situations were comparable. Doing such exposes your ignorance.

Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Magnum on April 06, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
Both programs were a mess when they started.

Wojo inherited a mess similar to what Roy Williams inherited at UNC... Drew inherited a mess similar to what Forest Gregg inherited at SMU.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on April 06, 2021, 02:08:50 PM
I agree with Heisenberg.  I believe we needed to be more patient with Wojo.  We now have to be patient with our new young coach.

Wojo is 9 months older than our "young coach" but the "young coach" has 5 more years of head coaching experience.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Pakuni on April 06, 2021, 02:16:31 PM
Wojo inherited a mess similar to what Roy Williams inherited at UNC... Drew inherited a mess similar to what Forest Gregg inherited at SMU.

Roy Williams inherited three NBA lottery picks. Not sure that's the best comparison to what Wojo inherited.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: StillAWarrior on April 06, 2021, 02:24:05 PM
I agree with Heisenberg.  I believe we needed to be more patient with Wojo.  We now have to be patient with our new young coach.

I was a projo - or at least a so-sojo- for a lot longer than many on this board. As much as I didn’t like the results, I could have lived with it if I had some reason to believe he was improving. What pushed me over the edge this year was when I became utterly convinced that he wasn’t getting better and that another year (or two or three) would have been more of the same.

You give young coaches more time when you think they are improving. If you become convinced that they are not, you’ve got to cut your losses.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Jockey on April 06, 2021, 02:46:08 PM
I was a projo - or at least a so-sojo- for a lot longer than many on this board. As much as I didn’t like the results, I could have lived with it if I had some reason to believe he was improving. What pushed me over the edge this year was when I became utterly convinced that he wasn’t getting better and that another year (or two or three) would have been more of the same.

You give young coaches more time when you think they are improving. If you become convinced that they are not, you’ve got to cut your losses.


Nice post, Still. I felt the same way.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on April 06, 2021, 02:56:19 PM
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thread in Heisey history. Hard to believe, I’ll concede. But quite possibly...

There are so many to choose from...
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: muwarrior69 on April 06, 2021, 03:07:20 PM
Wojo is 9 months older than our "young coach" but the "young coach" has 5 more years of head coaching experience.

But our previous "young coach" was our second choice to our current "young coach" whom we would have hired which is the reason our previous "young coach" got 7 years head coaching experience in the first place so 9 months don't matter, but the 7 wasted years matters a lot.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: dgies9156 on April 06, 2021, 03:20:54 PM
Let's be realistic about the two situations:

1) Wojo walked into Marquette knowing his job was to rebuild and restart a fading glory program. Like it or not, Wojo was going to be measured by the quality of recruits he brought to play for Marquette, the number of times the team made the NCAA and the number of NCAA wins Marquette sustained in his tenure. Simply put, we expected him to rebuild us to where we were just two years before he got here.

2) The shadow of the late Al McGuire engulfed everything about Wojo and our program.

3) Basketball's marketing and dollar value is way too important to Marquette. No way our beloved leadership would allow a mediocre program for 15 to 17 years. We'd lose most of our fan base if that happened. Think D-E-P-A-U-L !!!!

4) Wojo was a spring-back love after our first love, Shaka, jilted us. It never really fit and when the first love faced an ugly divorce, it was our chance to be romantic again. This time, both sides knew they were right for each other.

5) Coach Drew, by contrast, inherited a crapfest, to put it mildly. It was going to take time to rebuild and, because Baylor is not a traditional basketball school, nor is basketball king, he was going to have time to rebuild and redeploy the program.

Coach Wojo would have loved to have had Coach Drew's runway. Sadly, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone else that his current flight plan was going to net matearially different results than we've seen in the past seven years.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: jesmu84 on April 06, 2021, 03:38:06 PM
If the NCAA had any integrity, this championship would be vacated within 5 years.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 03:44:23 PM
1) Wojo walked into Marquette knowing his job was to rebuild and restart a fading glory program. Like it or not, Wojo was going to be measured by the quality of recruits he brought to play for Marquette, the number of times the team made the NCAA and the number of NCAA wins Marquette sustained in his tenure. Simply put, we expected him to rebuild us to where we were just two years before he got here.

2) The shadow of the late Al McGuire engulfed everything about Wojo and our program.




Point #2 isn't the case IMO and is inconsistent with point #1.  I would suggest that the success of Crean and Buzz was way more of a shadow than Al McGuire was.  Al hasn't coached here for over forty years.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 03:49:13 PM
If the NCAA had any integrity, this championship would be vacated within 5 years.


Uh....why?

Drew got in trouble for sending too many texts and making too many phone calls to recruits ten years ago, but other than that he hasn't been accused of violations.  And the sexual assault issues were related to the football program...not basketball.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: dgies9156 on April 06, 2021, 03:55:16 PM


Point #2 isn't the case IMO and is inconsistent with point #1.  I would suggest that the success of Crean and Buzz was way more of a shadow than Al McGuire was.  Al hasn't coached here for over forty years.

Take a good hard look at our court at the Computing Castle. Look at our uniforms. Then think about the athletic center and the statue inside it.

Don't think it says the Buzz Williams Court or has TOM on our uniforms. That aint Kevin O'Neill looking down on all who enter the Kevin O'Neill center!

C'mon man, we're still living off one shining moment that happened 44 years ago. Al defined us and still does, like it or not.

As to the inconsistency, not really. There's a lot of us who still think Buzz's success two years before was the starting point for getting back to the One Shining Moment we had in the 1970s.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 03:59:57 PM
Take a good hard look at our court at the Computing Castle. Look at our uniforms. Then think about the athletic center and the statue inside it.

Don't think it says the Buzz Williams Court or has TOM on our uniforms. That aint Kevin O'Neill looking down on all who enter the Kevin O'Neill center!

C'mon man, we're still living off one shining moment that happened 44 years ago. Al defined us and still does, like it or not.

As to the inconsistency, not really. There's a lot of us who still think Buzz's success two years before was the starting point for getting back to the One Shining Moment we had in the 1970s.


The expectations for repeating what Al delivered disappeared long ago.  Most of the fanbase is realistic enough to know that's not going to happen.

The expectations are actually rather tame at this point.  The two coaches prior to Wojo delivered on them. 
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Uncle Rico on April 06, 2021, 04:12:54 PM
Take a good hard look at our court at the Computing Castle. Look at our uniforms. Then think about the athletic center and the statue inside it.

Don't think it says the Buzz Williams Court or has TOM on our uniforms. That aint Kevin O'Neill looking down on all who enter the Kevin O'Neill center!

C'mon man, we're still living off one shining moment that happened 44 years ago. Al defined us and still does, like it or not.

As to the inconsistency, not really. There's a lot of us who still think Buzz's success two years before was the starting point for getting back to the One Shining Moment we had in the 1970s.

Hallelujah
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2021, 04:17:03 PM

The expectations for repeating what Al delivered disappeared long ago.  Most of the fanbase is realistic enough to know that's not going to happen.

The expectations are actually rather tame at this point.  The two coaches prior to Wojo delivered on them.

The expectations are to hang banners.  Wojo didn't even get MU into GAS worthy debates.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on April 06, 2021, 04:17:41 PM
Let's be realistic about the two situations:

1) Wojo walked into Marquette knowing his job was to rebuild and restart a fading glory program. Like it or not, Wojo was going to be measured by the quality of recruits he brought to play for Marquette, the number of times the team made the NCAA and the number of NCAA wins Marquette sustained in his tenure. Simply put, we expected him to rebuild us to where we were just two years before he got here.

2) The shadow of the late Al McGuire engulfed everything about Wojo and our program.

3) Basketball's marketing and dollar value is way too important to Marquette. No way our beloved leadership would allow a mediocre program for 15 to 17 years. We'd lose most of our fan base if that happened. Think D-E-P-A-U-L !!!!

4) Wojo was a spring-back love after our first love, Shaka, jilted us. It never really fit and when the first love faced an ugly divorce, it was our chance to be romantic again. This time, both sides knew they were right for each other.

5) Coach Drew, by contrast, inherited a crapfest, to put it mildly. It was going to take time to rebuild and, because Baylor is not a traditional basketball school, nor is basketball king, he was going to have time to rebuild and redeploy the program.

Coach Wojo would have loved to have had Coach Drew's runway. Sadly, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone else that his current flight plan was going to net matearially different results than we've seen in the past seven years.

I rebut:

1) Five years out of the last six, including three Sweet 16s or better, is NOT a program that needed a "rebuild and restart".  And it certainly wasn't "a fading glory program."

2) Ask KO about this one.  That is about where this point ends.

3) No comment.

4) Wojo was a BAD HIRE.  A somewhat understandable knee-jerk reaction to the end of the Buzz era.  We went with "choir boy" over "quality" and it cost us seven years.  It is NOW when your first point is actually applicable.

5) Coach Drew can actually coach.  Even in his early years.  This fact, and this fact in and of itself, separates Drew from Wojo.  Wojo's "runway" could have extended to the moon and back and he would not have caught up to Drew.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Billy Hoyle on April 06, 2021, 04:24:32 PM
If the NCAA had any integrity, this championship would be vacated within 5 years.

they have to catch him first.

If they haven't caught Mulkey for paying Brittany Griener's family $15K and a Ford SUV how are they going to catch Drew and his under-the-table payments? The Dirty Preacher indeed.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 04:28:49 PM
they have to catch him first.

If they haven't caught Mulkey for paying Brittany Griener's family $15K and a Ford SUV how are they going to catch Drew and his under-the-table payments? The Dirty Preacher indeed.


Under the table payments for recruiting classes ranked in the mid-30s and only had a couple of players ranked in the top 100 of their respective classes?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Silent Verbal on April 06, 2021, 04:30:59 PM

The expectations for repeating what Al delivered disappeared long ago.  Most of the fanbase is realistic enough to know that's not going to happen.

The expectations are actually rather tame at this point.  The two coaches prior to Wojo delivered on them.

This, exactly.  Wojo actually did Shaka a favor by severely lowering the bar for the next couple seasons.  We’ll all just be happy if MU makes the tournament next year.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Small Orange Soda on April 06, 2021, 04:47:53 PM
I remember joking to a friend a few years ago that there were some fans so intent on giving Wojo a pass that they acted like he took over for Dave Bliss.  Guess I wasn't wrong.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: dgies9156 on April 06, 2021, 04:57:41 PM

The expectations for repeating what Al delivered disappeared long ago.  Most of the fanbase is realistic enough to know that's not going to happen.

The expectations are actually rather tame at this point.  The two coaches prior to Wojo delivered on them.

You give people sucky basketball and they mistakenly believe it is the norm. They start blaming Milwaukee’s lack of a tropical climate. Or, our co-eds aren’t up to Texas or UCLA standards. We start blaming everything except the reason why we aren’t winning — our coach didn’t get it done.

We can be a blue blood again. We know we can. Nobody in 1964 ever would have imagined we’d be what we were. The nattering nabobs of negativism have been around our program way too long.

Go Shaka!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Goose on April 06, 2021, 04:58:59 PM
Silent

I noted the day after TX lost that Shaka would be entering a perfect situation at MU and the timing was right this time around. When KO took over have uniforms that matched was a starting point and expectations were low. Only negative for Shaka on the expectation front is we all know he can recruit at a high level. The expectation bar is going rise rapidly, possibly starting this week with some transfer and recruiting news.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 06, 2021, 05:03:18 PM
You give people sucky basketball and they mistakenly believe it is the norm. They start blaming Milwaukee’s lack of a tropical climate. Or, our co-eds aren’t up to Texas or UCLA standards. We start blaming everything except the reason why we aren’t winning — our coach didn’t get it done.

We can be a blue blood again. We know we can. Nobody in 1964 ever would have imagined we’d be what we were. The nattering nabobs of negativism have been around our program way too long.

Go Shaka!

Look at our history as a basketball program. We were a blue blood for a 13 year timeframe that ended over four decades ago. It can happen but it’s just not very likely.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 06, 2021, 05:04:05 PM
I rebut:

1) Five years out of the last six, including three Sweet 16s or better, is NOT a program that needed a "rebuild and restart".  And it certainly wasn't "a fading glory program."

2) Ask KO about this one.  That is about where this point ends.

3) No comment.

4) Wojo was a BAD HIRE.  A somewhat understandable knee-jerk reaction to the end of the Buzz era.  We went with "choir boy" over "quality" and it cost us seven years.  It is NOW when your first point is actually applicable.

5) Coach Drew can actually coach.  Even in his early years.  This fact, and this fact in and of itself, separates Drew from Wojo.  Wojo's "runway" could have extended to the moon and back and he would not have caught up to Drew.

Nailed it, especially 4 and 5.

The people at Marquette who hired Wojo thought he would be a good basketball coach. They were wrong. The people at Baylor who hired Drew thought he would be a good basketball coach. They were right. Really tired of Billy and jesmu accusations about him being “dirty” without evidence. They sound like Northwestern fans. Everybody laughs at them too.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Uncle Rico on April 06, 2021, 05:09:07 PM
Nailed it, especially 4 and 5.

The people at Marquette who hired Wojo thought he would be a good basketball coach. They were wrong. The people at Baylor who hired Drew thought he would be a good basketball coach. They were right. Really tired of Billy and Chicago accusations about him being “dirty” without evidence. They sound like Northwestern fans. Everybody laughs at them too.

Scott Drew can coach.  It’s also true that he’s grown into the position and become better as the years have gone along.  Baylor had that luxury while Marquette doesn’t/didn’t.  Baylor fan would still probably win a football title first and foremost and being good in basketball was a bonus.  I don’t think a lot of people looked at Scott Drew and saw a great X’s and O’s guy 5 or 6 years ago.  I know because that was the consensus when they played UW-Madison in the Sweet 16 in 2014
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on April 06, 2021, 05:09:23 PM
If the NCAA had any integrity, this championship would be vacated within 5 years.

Source?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Viper on April 06, 2021, 09:04:43 PM
You give people sucky basketball and they mistakenly believe it is the norm. They start blaming Milwaukee’s lack of a tropical climate. Or, our co-eds aren’t up to Texas or UCLA standards. We start blaming everything except the reason why we aren’t winning — our coach didn’t get it done.

We can be a blue blood again. We know we can. Nobody in 1964 ever would have imagined we’d be what we were. The nattering nabobs of negativism have been around our program way too long.

Go Shaka!
amen! It takes vision and hard work. The financial resources are there. The facilities are there. Why can’t mu be ‘Nova? Why can’t MU be Gonzaga? If Shaka is the guy, he’ll get the players. He’ll have the right assistants. A return to dominance can definitely happen. Too many ‘probably never happen’ mindsets. Oh the competition. Milwaukee is too cold. MU academics. Oh oh oh. Put together a plan. Stick to the plan. Be relentless. Don’t fold. Screw the doubters.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on April 06, 2021, 09:39:59 PM
Really tired of Billy and jesmu accusations about him being “dirty” without evidence. They sound like Northwestern fans. Everybody laughs at them too.

It's not just guys like Billy and jesmu. It's Scott's peers as well. This is an older article but a panel of 100 coaches picked Scott second.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/

Could be sour grapes but combine what some of his peers have said with the realities of what the Baylor athletic department has been known to tolerate and you can understand the perception.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on April 06, 2021, 09:43:47 PM
And the sexual assault issues were related to the football program...not basketball.

Actually, it was related to the entire university, not just the football team. Some of the football cases got leaked and were made the face of the scandal. I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that the basketball team wasn't involved as well.

As someone who works in Title IX an hour down the road from Baylor, the public never becomes aware of ~99% of Title IX cases that occur at any given university. And plenty of them involve high profile individuals (not just athletes).
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Lennys Tap on April 06, 2021, 09:57:24 PM
It's not just guys like Billy and jesmu. It's Scott's peers as well. This is an older article but a panel of 100 coaches picked Scott second.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/



Wow. Tom Crean the 5th biggest cheater in the Uber slimy world of college basketball! Was Buzz brought in to clean up our program? Chico? Billy? Bueller? Anybody...?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: bradforster on April 06, 2021, 10:02:08 PM
Watch the Showtime documentary "Disgraced" and then tell me the Drew and Wojo job situations were similar.  What Drew has done at Baylor following the macabre known as the Dave Bliss tenure is almost miraculous. 
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on April 07, 2021, 07:44:36 AM
It's not just guys like Billy and jesmu. It's Scott's peers as well. This is an older article but a panel of 100 coaches picked Scott second.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/critical-coaches-who-is-perceived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/

Could be sour grapes but combine what some of his peers have said with the realities of what the Baylor athletic department has been known to tolerate and you can understand the perception.

A nine year old article with no evidence presented and no issues since.  Sorry but that's not enough for me.


Actually, it was related to the entire university, not just the football team. Some of the football cases got leaked and were made the face of the scandal. I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that the basketball team wasn't involved as well.

I mean that's fair, but no basketball player was accused that I am aware of.  Are you?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: dgies9156 on April 07, 2021, 08:41:18 AM
Ultimate point here is that we all agree that Coach Wojo was not a good hire. He was a rebound hire that happened because our first choice left us at the altar.

It is entirely possible that Coach Wojo goes on to be another Rick Majerus and attains high level success somewhere else. But, it was apparent he was not going to be as successful as most of us expect for a coach at Marquette. The first seven years were sunk costs and we had to evaluate based on a reasonable prognosis for the next three to four years. That's why he's gone.

I truly hope he does well somewhere else. But it had to be done.

Go Shaka!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: GooooMarquette on April 07, 2021, 09:08:57 AM
I was a projo - or at least a so-sojo- for a lot longer than many on this board. As much as I didn’t like the results, I could have lived with it if I had some reason to believe he was improving. What pushed me over the edge this year was when I became utterly convinced that he wasn’t getting better and that another year (or two or three) would have been more of the same.

You give young coaches more time when you think they are improving. If you become convinced that they are not, you’ve got to cut your losses.


Well said.

I felt exactly the same way. And I still think Wojo has a chance to improve as a head coach he lands in the right spot, surrounds himself with assistants who can teach him new things, and actually listens to their suggestions[i/].

Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: burger on April 07, 2021, 09:19:19 AM
I fart in your general direction......AKA.....What a load of B.S......

Stop being a Wojo apologist.....Only time will tell if Wojo will overcome his deficiencies and adapt a new more "productive" system and culture.....

Clearly at Marquette he was spinning his wheels with no evidence of any improvement.....Not in the past.....Nor in the future......
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Scoop Snoop on April 07, 2021, 09:34:08 AM
Ultimate point here is that we all agree that Coach Wojo was not a good hire. He was a rebound hire that happened because our first choice left us at the altar.

It is entirely possible that Coach Wojo goes on to be another Rick Majerus and attains high level success somewhere else. But, it was apparent he was not going to be as successful as most of us expect for a coach at Marquette. The first seven years were sunk costs and we had to evaluate based on a reasonable prognosis for the next three to four years. That's why he's gone.

I truly hope he does well somewhere else. But it had to be done.

Go Shaka!!!!!!!

He may well succeed elsewhere but the operative word, to me, is reasonable. Marquette definitely gave him a reasonable amount of time to succeed here. If he succeeds at another school, we will never hear the end of it from diehard projos. Whatever abilities that may surface in the future, he failed to bring them to fruition at MU. The key question is will he listen to those who can help him with his weaknesses.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MU82 on April 07, 2021, 12:00:35 PM
He may well succeed elsewhere but the operative word, to me, is reasonable. Marquette definitely gave him a reasonable amount of time to succeed here. If he succeeds at another school, we will never hear the end of it from diehard projos. Whatever abilities that may surface in the future, he failed to bring them to fruition at MU. The key question is will he listen to those who can help him with his weaknesses.

All good points ... but how many projos do you really think are still Scoopin'? Are there even a dozen left? Even 5?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on April 07, 2021, 12:18:57 PM
I fart in your general direction......AKA.....What a load of B.S......

Stop being a Wojo apologist.....Only time will tell if Wojo will overcome his deficiencies and adapt a new more "productive" system and culture.....

Clearly at Marquette he was spinning his wheels with no evidence of any improvement.....Not in the past.....Nor in the future......

The problematic issue with most MUScoopers is that they don't know how to recognize talent when it's on the floor.  Wojo never developed system, never recruited players to fit a system, and many of his players didn't mature a significant amount while Wojo was coach.  He had 7 years and didn't show ANY improvement.  The guy is a dud just as much as many of the posters are on here - except for a handful who understand basketball.   When you have to go Kenpom to dig for statistics to prove someone's worth, you don't know basketball - you're just some stat geek that can't relate information to the real world.  If you were a Pro Wojer, you're not a true basketball fan that understands the game nor ever will. 
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on April 07, 2021, 01:02:29 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/8c2ee2b698d2eeb5e708ca5c27cd18b0/tenor.gif?itemid=12137899)
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on April 07, 2021, 08:13:27 PM

Well said.

I felt exactly the same way. And I still think Wojo has a chance to improve as a head coach he lands in the right spot, surrounds himself with assistants who can teach him new things, and actually listens to their suggestions[i/].

The only chance Wojo has to improve is if he starts listening to voices that come from outside of his own head.

There is a difference between having the courage of one's convictions and just being stubborn.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Newsdreams on April 07, 2021, 09:21:44 PM
How long before many here start turning on Shaka?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Uncle Rico on April 08, 2021, 05:25:33 AM
How long before many here start turning on Shaka?

After his first loss next year
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MU82 on April 08, 2021, 07:17:21 AM
I know we're being funny, but really, I would expect it to be quite some time before Shaka gets much criticism.

Many nojos said they knew early on that Wojo had been a bad hire, with some saying they knew it even before he coached his first game. Many (most?) of those Scoopers have been all-in on Shaka. They are 100% certain that he is a great coach, and they also are motivated by being "right" (which we all like to be). So they will give him a lot of latitude. We already saw many excuses being made on his behalf -- all the references to his "bad luck" at Texas -- that they never accorded Wojo.

So perhaps the largest group of nojos, guys who never liked him for a day, are in love with Shaka and will be very patient through growing pains if any.

Now, there are some who, sadly, believe Shaka got the job only because he is Black, and/or those who think Moser would have been a much better choice. I hope they give Shaka time, but a few of them might not. Because they, too, want to be "right."

As a projo-turned-nojo and a Shaka skeptic-turned-cheerleader, I believe Shaka will do so well at Marquette that there will be little reason to "turn on" him. That doesn't mean he should be above legitimate criticism -- even the most accomplished coaches in history aren't immune to that, nor should they be.

We Are Marquette!
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: The Thing on April 08, 2021, 07:34:17 AM
The big question for me is what terms are we going to use for Shaka? (proShaka and noShaka just don’t roll off the tongue).
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: StillAWarrior on April 08, 2021, 07:52:24 AM
The big question for me is what terms are we going to use for Shaka? (proShaka and noShaka just don’t roll off the tongue).

For the first couple years, perhaps we could just use "Marquette Fan" and "Other"
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on April 08, 2021, 07:54:06 AM
The big question for me is what terms are we going to use for Shaka? (proShaka and noShaka just don’t roll off the tongue).

Smarties and Dummies
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Uncle Rico on April 08, 2021, 07:57:15 AM
The big question for me is what terms are we going to use for Shaka? (proShaka and noShaka just don’t roll off the tongue).

I’m mostly excited to see what name Willie comes up with for Shaka
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Scoop Snoop on April 08, 2021, 10:03:08 AM
The big question for me is what terms are we going to use for Shaka? (proShaka and noShaka just don’t roll off the tongue).

Shakyahs and Shaknahs. And why wait until the first loss to go after him? We already have the bald vs. hair issue and his inexcusable failure to have his staff on board.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: warriorchick on April 08, 2021, 10:26:42 AM
After his first loss next year

More like after the first time Marquette gets behind in a game.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: MU82 on April 08, 2021, 10:31:18 AM
For the first couple years, perhaps we could just use "Marquette Fan" and "Other"

This.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: buckchuckler on April 08, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
How long before many here start turning on Shaka?

I find this odd considering this thread was made to defend the coach that was here and bad for 7 years.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: THRILLHO on April 08, 2021, 03:19:40 PM
I find this odd considering this thread was made to defend the coach that was here and bad for 7 years. troll

Fify
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Pakuni on April 08, 2021, 04:03:30 PM
I find this odd considering this thread was made to defend the coach that was here and bad for 7 years.

Correction: This thread was made to troll.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: NCMUFan on April 08, 2021, 04:37:27 PM
Let's be realistic about the two situations:

1) Wojo walked into Marquette knowing his job was to rebuild and restart a fading glory program. Like it or not, Wojo was going to be measured by the quality of recruits he brought to play for Marquette, the number of times the team made the NCAA and the number of NCAA wins Marquette sustained in his tenure. Simply put, we expected him to rebuild us to where we were just two years before he got here.

2) The shadow of the late Al McGuire engulfed everything about Wojo and our program.

3) Basketball's marketing and dollar value is way too important to Marquette. No way our beloved leadership would allow a mediocre program for 15 to 17 years. We'd lose most of our fan base if that happened. Think D-E-P-A-U-L !!!!

4) Wojo was a spring-back love after our first love, Shaka, jilted us. It never really fit and when the first love faced an ugly divorce, it was our chance to be romantic again. This time, both sides knew they were right for each other.

5) Coach Drew, by contrast, inherited a crapfest, to put it mildly. It was going to take time to rebuild and, because Baylor is not a traditional basketball school, nor is basketball king, he was going to have time to rebuild and redeploy the program.

Coach Wojo would have loved to have had Coach Drew's runway. Sadly, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone else that his current flight plan was going to net matearially different results than we've seen in the past seven years.

Regarding 4) Is the Shaka - MU relationship just a rebound relationship for Shaka after his first love "Texas" dumped him?
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: Newsdreams on April 08, 2021, 04:43:23 PM
I find this odd considering this thread was made to defend the coach that was here and bad for 7 years.
It is teal but....
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: brewcity77 on April 08, 2021, 08:25:29 PM
Regarding 4) Is the Shaka - MU relationship just a rebound relationship for Shaka after his first love "Texas" dumped him?

Could be, but I'm celebrating 10 years in November with a girl that was supposed to be my rebound relationship, just like I was supposed to be a rebound for her. You never know when that rebound will turn into a lifelong game-winner.
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: keefe on April 09, 2021, 10:54:44 AM
Did a MU player murder a teammate?  I must have missed that somehow.

I have it on good authority that Davante's flatulence slaughtered teammates by the busload. Plain and simple these episodes were violations of the Chemical Warfare treaties to which the United States is a signatory. 
Title: Re: Scott Drew v Wojo
Post by: keefe on April 09, 2021, 10:58:49 AM
Wojo inherited a mess similar to what Roy Williams inherited at UNC... Drew inherited a mess similar to what Forest Gregg inherited at SMU.

Matt Doherty.

Tanned, Rested, Ready