MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 12, 2021, 09:52:18 AM

Title: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 12, 2021, 09:52:18 AM
Assuming Norlander is correct, and as of this moment I believe he is, Wojo will be the coach next season. The next year conundrum thread made me curious about what people's expectations are for next season. Not what they think will happen, but what they think needs to happen in order for Wojo to earn a stay of execution.

What level of performance would be required by the team next season for you to want Wojo to be retained?
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Badgerhater on March 12, 2021, 09:55:46 AM
What I want to see is a balanced roster of fundamentally sound basketball players that work within a system that maximize their individual talents and multiples the overall team talent.

Can’t have that with empty schollie spots.


Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2021, 09:56:35 AM
Not gonna vote. If he has a top 3 seed but we lose in the first round I'll be pissed but willing to give him rope, if he gets an 11 seed and makes the sweet 16 I'd be wrongfully distracted from a meh season but willing to give him rope.

I don't see a scenario barring a great season, no collapse, second weekend appearance all in together where I completely forgive him and hop back on his bandwagon.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Hards Alumni on March 12, 2021, 09:59:46 AM
If he doesn't win a tourney game next year, no matter what seed he pulls he better be gone.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: dinger on March 12, 2021, 10:02:00 AM
it will take more than 1 year since we have had many seasons of anger/sadness, so mine is:

24 wins + Elite 8
If he actually achieves that, not ditching us afterwards like we all expect
Follow it up with 2 more seasons in top 3 of BE, >.500 NCAAs record in those years
I expect none of this to happen
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: brewcity77 on March 12, 2021, 10:03:39 AM
Results are great, but I want to see him actually address the constant deficiencies. It's more about being able to put a top-25 efficiency defense on the floor night in and night out. It's about cutting the turnover rate down to the top-50 in the nation, and at least top-100 on both ends of the floor. It's demonstrating the ability to put players in positions to win, not constantly inbounding into the corner against the press or heaving every BOOB inbound to mid-court. It's being able to put multiple point guards on the floor at once. DJ Carton is not suited to be a primary ball-handler and should have someone next to him who is more of a true game manager and distributor. It's recruiting wings that can be effective inside and out, not a roster where (departing) Jamal Cain is literally the only high-major wing on the roster. And honestly, replacing an assistant with a proven game coach (say a Bruce Weber if he finds himself out at KSU and wants to come home for a spell) rather than just another young recruiter who doesn't have the time in life or the profession to stand up to Wojo would be a HUGE step. And someone more successful than Rob Judson, for damn sure.

As far as results, this team should be top-3 in the Big East next year. The league loses a lot of talent and there's room to move up. This should be a tournament team with a single digit seed, I'm thinking 6 or higher, but definitely single-digits. But again, while I want results, I really want to see an understanding of how to manage a team in a league like the Big East. I find that constantly lacking.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: panda on March 12, 2021, 10:04:54 AM
For me, winning the Big East. That would imply there wouldn't be a massive collapse in season like we've grown accustomed to. It would also mean the team improves as the season goes on which hasn't happened in a long time either.

Being a bubble team isn't improvement and should warrant change.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: StillAWarrior on March 12, 2021, 10:04:57 AM
I'm also not going to vote. Obviously, I'd like to see results, but that's not all I would need to see. I'd want to see a consistently effective coach who utilizes his players effectively, makes adjustments and seems to have a plan. In short, I'd want to see that he has improved as a coach because right now, I just don't think he has it.

So, even if he makes the tourney and/or wins a couple games there, that wouldn't necessarily be enough. I'd really need to be convinced that he's turned a corner and can coach. I'm aware, of course, that those two things might overlap a bit, but they're not the same.

I think it's far more likely that he'll make the tournament next year -- and maybe even win a game -- than that he'll turn the corner and finally become an effective coach. Frankly, that thought scares the hell out of me because it would buy him more time.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: StillAWarrior on March 12, 2021, 10:07:08 AM
Results are great, but I want to see him actually address the constant deficiencies. It's more about being able to put a top-25 efficiency defense on the floor night in and night out. It's about cutting the turnover rate down to the top-50 in the nation, and at least top-100 on both ends of the floor. It's demonstrating the ability to put players in positions to win, not constantly inbounding into the corner against the press or heaving every BOOB inbound to mid-court. It's being able to put multiple point guards on the floor at once. DJ Carton is not suited to be a primary ball-handler and should have someone next to him who is more of a true game manager and distributor. It's recruiting wings that can be effective inside and out, not a roster where (departing) Jamal Cain is literally the only high-major wing on the roster. And honestly, replacing an assistant with a proven game coach (say a Bruce Weber if he finds himself out at KSU and wants to come home for a spell) rather than just another young recruiter who doesn't have the time in life or the profession to stand up to Wojo would be a HUGE step. And someone more successful than Rob Judson, for damn sure.

As far as results, this team should be top-3 in the Big East next year. The league loses a lot of talent and there's room to move up. This should be a tournament team with a single digit seed, I'm thinking 6 or higher, but definitely single-digits. But again, while I want results, I really want to see an understanding of how to manage a team in a league like the Big East. I find that constantly lacking.

This is what it looks like when someone who knows far more about basketball than I do expresses the opinion I was trying to express.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Warriors4ever on March 12, 2021, 10:08:14 AM
I’d probably go with #2 because in any of those scenarios you have to play some sustained excellent basketball. Which is what we haven’t seen.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: GoldenWarrior11 on March 12, 2021, 10:41:55 AM
Honestly, I'm not sure.  Seven years is a lifetime for college coaches to put their stamp on a program.  Very, very few are given a rope that long to make their mark.  There is nothing at this point that leads me, or as it appears, many other MU fans, that anything radical will change in advance of next year.

Marquette and Clemson are vastly different programs, but I am beginning to view Wojo as similar to Brad Brownell.  In Brownell's first seven seasons, he only had two 20-win seasons and one NCAAT appearance (0-1).  For whatever reason, Brownell - because he is nice, polished and doesn't get the MBB into trouble (or take away from football) - has tremendous job security.  In his eighth year, he made a Sweet 16 and was given a six-year extension.  By year nine, it was another tournament miss and this year, year ten, is safely in the tournament again.  Brownell very much has a job for life, despite being in a loaded ACC and not really having any semblance of sustained success. 

There have been, and will continue to be, head coaches with strong resumes that are fired having had greater success than Wojo.  For various reasons, our school continues to look past that and not associate it with his evaluation.  I think I am honestly past the Wojo-era at MU, and I'm not really sure anything can be done to erase many seasons of inconsistency, mediocrity and subpar performances. 
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 12, 2021, 11:18:28 AM
Sell out crowds at every home game. a promise that he will not lose 2 games in a row. Anything less he should promise to resign.

How can one forgive what is irredeemable.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: We R Final Four on March 12, 2021, 11:25:25 AM
For various reasons, our school continues to look past that and not associate it with his evaluation.  I think I am honestly past the Wojo-era at MU, and I'm not really sure anything can be done to erase many seasons of inconsistency, mediocrity and subpar performances.
Thank you—this is exactly how I feel.
Time to move on. And if MU continues to be shortsighted in this, and retains Wojo....they will set the program back even further.
The decrease in STHs and the booing students will make the FF brutal next year. Will Wojo bring recruits to a half filled arena and deafening boos?
Future not looking bright.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 12, 2021, 11:32:23 AM
The conundrum is if the shytshow that happened last time with MU is repeated. Lovell's and Wojo's careers are tied at the hip and Scholl is nearing retirement. What MU doesn't need is a repeat of that power void.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: shoothoops on March 12, 2021, 11:32:58 AM
I look at it this way.

Where do people want to see the most improved results? Regular Season League and NCAA results.

At minimum he needs to win an NCAA game next season, and possibly two to keep his job. I would be surprised if he was kept after next year if he couldn't accomplish this. The one NCAA win vs two or more would be the big discussion. And I believe he has to get to the 2nd weekend to keep his job.

With regards to regular season, a top tier or better league finish which would produce a top 5 type of seed or better is strongly preferred. But I do believe if his regular season results were middle of the pack league but NCAA 2nd weekend he may be retained by MU.

The above is what I think what Marquette would do, not necessarily what I would do.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Goose on March 12, 2021, 11:42:29 AM
It will come down an eye test and gut feeling for me. There are times that you see a team/program has legitimately turned a corner and they have built a foundation for bigger things. Not at one time during the seven years have I really felt they had turned the corner in a big way. I remember in KO's first year you could sense that a culture was being formed, a style of play/system in place and the fan base felt excited.

I hate to say it, but if Wojo is back next year I am more interested in seeing a season of hard work, toughness and far more well played games than not. Too many times on here the header of a thread referenced an ugly win, a win is a win or similar titles. Great programs can have ugly wins, marginal programs need to learn how to win with good play.

I have said for a couple of years now that I would sacrifice wins for a sustainable program and he has provided neither, IMO. He would have make big time leap next season for me to give him an inch a rope.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: We R Final Four on March 12, 2021, 11:42:58 AM
I look at it this way.

Where do people want to see the most improved results? Regular Season League and NCAA results.

What else is there?
Non-con? Pre-conference tournaments?
Big East tournament?
I want to see improvement in all games that are played.
I assume you are referring to March Madness when you said NCAA results.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: JTBMU7 on March 12, 2021, 11:45:01 AM
Assuming Norlander is correct, and as of this moment I believe he is, Wojo will be the coach next season. The next year conundrum thread made me curious about what people's expectations are for next season. Not what they think will happen, but what they think needs to happen in order for Wojo to earn a stay of execution.

What level of performance would be required by the team next season for you to want Wojo to be retained?
What did Norlander say?
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 79Warrior on March 12, 2021, 11:45:45 AM
The conundrum is if the shytshow that happened last time with MU is repeated. Lovell's and Wojo's careers are tied at the hip and Scholl is nearing retirement. What MU doesn't need is a repeat of that power void.

This
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: cheebs09 on March 12, 2021, 11:46:14 AM
In the off-season, I’d like to see some meaningful change. Whether it’s in philosophy, staff, or something else that shows Wojo recognizes something isn’t working.

My worry is he will chalk last year up to Covid and bank on the core gaining some more experience. We then would do the same stuff as always and for some reason expect different results.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Hards Alumni on March 12, 2021, 11:52:27 AM
In the off-season, I’d like to see some meaningful change. Whether it’s in philosophy, staff, or something else that shows Wojo recognizes something isn’t working.

My worry is he will chalk last year up to Covid and bank on the core gaining some more experience. We then would do the same stuff as always and for some reason expect different results.

This is my expectation.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: shoothoops on March 12, 2021, 11:53:11 AM
What else is there?
Non-con? Pre-conference tournaments?
Big East tournament?
I want to see improvement in all games that are played.
I assume you are referring to March Madness when you said NCAA results.

What else is there, rivalry games, conference tourney, non-conference, other tourneys, other results that are not as quantified, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

Yes March Madness is NCAA Results.

I posted what I believe MU would or wouldn't do, and/or would look at most with regards to a decision.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Small Orange Soda on March 12, 2021, 11:53:23 AM
I need some assurance that any success isn't necessarily a fluke, so a top 25 finish along with the assumption we'll be a preseason top 25 team the next year.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: mu_hilltopper on March 12, 2021, 11:58:43 AM
I won't vote for any of those options. 

The only thing that would change my mind on Wojo is consistency .. 3 straight seasons of top 5 in the BE, at least 2 seasons with a Dance, and at least 1 win.

I wouldn't require that of a new coach, only him, he's dug into such a deep hole.

This will 100% not happen without 5+ years more.    No one should be willing to invest that kind of time on a poor gamble.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2021, 12:06:19 PM
What did Norlander say?

It's buried in this article
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-the-tech-that-can-save-the-ncaa-tournament-how-to-seed-loyola-chicago-and-top-10-days-of-season/

But
Quote
Let's start with some coaching-cycle scuttlebutt. You better believe there are schools sending out feelers to people connected to coaches to politely gauge their interest in any potential openings. In talking to various sources in the past week, here's my impression as of today with power-conference gigs that have speculation around them and expectations in the coming days and weeks.   

Jobs I've been told are definitely opening: DePaul, Minnesota.

Jobs I've been told are definitely not opening: Marquette, Miami, Notre Dame.

Jobs I've been told will probably not open: Indiana, Kansas State, South Carolina.

Job I've been told is more likely to open than not: Iowa State.

A unique situation no one can predict: Arizona.

Also a mention of 1970 Marquette/Al in the article creating the only time the NCAA had to find a replacement team.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2021, 12:19:51 PM
Nothing he could accomplish in one season (short of a FF or National Championship preferably combined with Big East hardware) could grant him the forgiveness he needs.

He has done such an inconceivable amount of damage to the program over 7 years that he needs improved results consistently over 3-4 years to change my mind on his abilities as a coach.

He may fluke his way into a Sweet Sixteen if we keep him around long enough (blind squirrel and nut situation) but he will NEVER build this program to the level of consistent success that should be expected at Marquette. That much is fact.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: rocky_warrior on March 12, 2021, 12:27:51 PM
You actually posted only one fact.  Winning a NC would make him an MU god and untouchable.

There is less he could accomplish for forgiveness.

The damage is conceivable.

He probably won't, but could build a consistently successful program.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on March 12, 2021, 12:30:26 PM
He probably won't, but could build a consistently successful program.
He is incapable of it. Fact.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: StillAWarrior on March 12, 2021, 12:33:07 PM
The only thing that would change my mind on Wojo is consistency...

I'm confident that he'll give you consistency.

...3 straight seasons of top 5 in the BE, at least 2 seasons with a Dance, and at least 1 win.

Oh...you meant consistently good. Yeah, I'm afraid that's gonna be a problem.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Uncle Rico on March 12, 2021, 12:34:13 PM
It will come down an eye test and gut feeling for me. There are times that you see a team/program has legitimately turned a corner and they have built a foundation for bigger things. Not at one time during the seven years have I really felt they had turned the corner in a big way. I remember in KO's first year you could sense that a culture was being formed, a style of play/system in place and the fan base felt excited.

I hate to say it, but if Wojo is back next year I am more interested in seeing a season of hard work, toughness and far more well played games than not. Too many times on here the header of a thread referenced an ugly win, a win is a win or similar titles. Great programs can have ugly wins, marginal programs need to learn how to win with good play.

I have said for a couple of years now that I would sacrifice wins for a sustainable program and he has provided neither, IMO. He would have make big time leap next season for me to give him an inch a rope.

Well said, Goose

I have no idea what Wojo’s principles are on either side of the ball.  Effort hasn’t been lacking but they certainly haven’t shown a sustained toughness or edge to them as a program.  I thought this group had it, but it never sustained itself

I don’t think there’s a snowballs chance in hello he establishs any of that next year and it’s too late anyway
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: We R Final Four on March 12, 2021, 01:25:01 PM
What else is there, rivalry games, conference tourney, non-conference, other tourneys, other results that are not as quantified, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

Yes March Madness is NCAA Results.

I posted what I believe MU would or wouldn't do, and/or would look at most with regards to a decision.
?
So you are suggesting scoopers would like to see improvement in the league and March Madness, but the other games in the season....kind of indifferent?
Ok.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on March 12, 2021, 01:27:47 PM
Before we can even talk about next season's results, Wojo has to make a huge splash in the transfer market.  if not, there is nothing he can do about next season because we are gonna be in a world of hurt next year without an infusion of new players. 
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 12, 2021, 01:29:48 PM
He is incapable of it. Fact.

That's a theory. It's been tested repeatedly and shown to be true but cannot be proven
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Eye on March 12, 2021, 07:31:13 PM
It's more shades of gray than this, but based on the options given, I was at #3 in the list into this year, so up to #2 in the list at a minimum if change isn't made.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Mu8891 on March 12, 2021, 07:43:35 PM
Basically it’s hopeless

A lot of good posts above.  If he even
MAKES the NCAAT the stupid Admin
will give him an extension

The problems he has created w / the team and program are soooo deep they
can’t be fixed in a year.

He’s already blaming this year on
Covid / and Lovell et al are buying it.
So too are the slurpers like Dodds and
many on the “ other “ board

He’s had SEVEN years!  How many of us can basically fail at a job for that long and keep coming back ?

$hit ... an NIT bid next year ( and a
“Good recruiting class “ lol ) will probably keep him.   Really. 
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Uncle Rico on March 12, 2021, 07:47:53 PM
Basically it’s hopeless

A lot of good posts above.  If he even
MAKES the NCAAT the stupid Admin
will give him an extension

The problems he has created w / the team and program are soooo deep they
can’t be fixed in a year.

He’s already blaming this year on
Covid / and Lovell et al are buying it.
So too are the slurpers like Dodds and
many on the “ other “ board

He’s had SEVEN years!  How many of us can basically fail at a job for that long and keep coming back ?

$hit ... an NIT bid next year ( and a
“Good recruiting class “ lol ) will probably keep him.   Really.
.

It won’t
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 12, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
I think some missed the point of this thread and that's probably my fault. Title wasn't the best. I wasn't asking what it would take to make you think he was the guy, I agree that short of a Final Four that will take multiple seasons. I was more wondering what it take for you to agree, even begrudgingly, that he has earned one more season.

I've long said that coaches that make NCAA tournaments don't get fired (unless they're Rick Barnes). But just like COVID may save Wojo job this season, I think it could cost him his job next season. He should be fired this season, he won't be due to COVID. Given that, I think it's fair to say he needs to overachieve next season to make up for this one.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
I wasn't asking what it would take to make you think he was the guy, I agree that short of a Final Four that will take multiple seasons. I was more wondering what it take for you to agree, even begrudgingly, that he has earned one more season.
These questions should be, and are (in my opinion), the exact same question. As soon as you realize, or are convinced, that someone is “not the guy”, you have to fire him.

There is no in between firing and believing someone is or could be the guy. As soon as you allow for a middle ground there (which it seems the admin has done), you create a vacuum for perpetual mediocrity - which is the most damaging thing, in the long term, for the program.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 13, 2021, 01:00:56 AM
There is no in between firing and believing someone is or could be the guy.

Actually, you just identified the middle ground. There is "is", "isn't", and "could be". Right now Wojo has pushed practically all of us into the "isn't" category. There's a theoretical performance next season that gets Wojo back into the "could be" category. I'm asking people what that is for them.

Cause I can guarantee you, if Wojo gets a top 4 seed or makes the Sweet 16, he's coming back no mater what anyone thinks of him. He's gone if doesn't make tournament no matter what anyone thinks of him. I don't know where the actual line is in between those two.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Silent Verbal on March 13, 2021, 06:37:08 AM
Actually, you just identified the middle ground. There is "is", "isn't", and "could be". Right now Wojo has pushed practically all of us into the "isn't" category. There's a theoretical performance next season that gets Wojo back into the "could be" category. I'm asking people what that is for them.

Cause I can guarantee you, if Wojo gets a top 4 seed or makes the Sweet 16, he's coming back no mater what anyone thinks of him. He's gone if doesn't make tournament no matter what anyone thinks of him. I don't know where the actual line is in between those two.

I just do not see this magical land of milk and honey scenario next year where Wojo has regular and postseason success, stays at Marquette for the foreseeable future, and we all live happily ever after.  Like, do you honestly think that’s something that could happen (even though you really, really want it to)?

If Wojo has a good year next year, he will try to jump to another job to reset his coaching clock.  Unless he does something crazy like make a Final Four, he’ll be fired the next time he doesn’t make the tournament.  He also will not have Carton and Garcia in 22-23, I think we can all realistically say those guys will go pro after next season.  He can’t afford another rebuild.  For the sake of his own career, he needs to reset his coaching clock as quickly as possible.  He’d do it this year, but I doubt any school would have him.  And think about that:  We have a coach no one wants.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Galway Eagle on March 13, 2021, 07:13:04 AM
These questions should be, and are (in my opinion), the exact same question. As soon as you realize, or are convinced, that someone is “not the guy”, you have to fire him.

There is no in between firing and believing someone is or could be the guy. As soon as you allow for a middle ground there (which it seems the admin has done), you create a vacuum for perpetual mediocrity - which is the most damaging thing, in the long term, for the program.

Clearly someone hasn't worked in sales. You can be PIP'd for 3months and hit quota then be given another chance. But both you and the manager know that you aren't "the guy"
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2021, 07:19:14 AM
Clearly someone hasn't worked in sales. You can be PIP'd for 3months and hit quota then be given another chance. But both you and the manager know that you aren't "the guy"
This ain’t sales
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: swoopem on March 13, 2021, 07:48:14 AM
In the off-season, I’d like to see some meaningful change. Whether it’s in philosophy, staff, or something else that shows Wojo recognizes something isn’t working.

My worry is he will chalk last year up to Covid and bank on the core gaining some more experience. We then would do the same stuff as always and for some reason expect different results.

I guarantee his excuse next year will be “we lost 3 seniors. That’s a lot of experience to fill. We’re still trying to find the identity of this team. Blah blah blah”

Guy is full of BS
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: willie warrior on March 13, 2021, 08:08:45 AM
I won't vote for any of those options. 

The only thing that would change my mind on Wojo is consistency .. 3 straight seasons of top 5 in the BE, at least 2 seasons with a Dance, and at least 1 win.

I wouldn't require that of a new coach, only him, he's dug into such a deep hole.

This will 100% not happen without 5+ years more.    No one should be willing to invest that kind of time on a poor gamble.

Agree somewhat with this. Three straight seasons of Top 5 BEast is too low of a bar. Consistently copeting for the title should be the expectation. Wojo-Dukiet needs to be gone. Just like all the excuses.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: CountryRoads on March 13, 2021, 08:48:36 AM
Results are great, but I want to see him actually address the constant deficiencies. It's more about being able to put a top-25 efficiency defense on the floor night in and night out. It's about cutting the turnover rate down to the top-50...

I’d agree with this and I’d like to see consistency in all of these metrics. Winning takes care of itself at that point.

This off-season major changes need to occur with players/coaches. We need at the very least 3 (maybe even 4) players to be cut loose because they don’t have the talent to compete at this level on either end of the floor. Targeting replacement players who help improve the issues and not some low major transfer who is proven to be erratic and turns it over at a high rate (for example). Signing Chartouney and Perez was just throwing crap at the wall at hoping it stuck...and it didn’t.

Lastly, Presutti and Judson need to be fired simply being for being complete nothings. If wojo won’t do it, then his boss must. I’m sick of the culture of promoting the video assistant intern or whatever to assistant coach. Cam will be next to be promoted. Wojo needs to be surrounded by more foreign entities who will challenge and hold him accountable.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: wildbillsb on March 13, 2021, 09:41:39 AM
Giving you a  big Amen!
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: 79Warrior on March 13, 2021, 09:46:07 AM
I’d agree with this and I’d like to see consistency in all of these metrics. Winning takes care of itself at that point.

This off-season major changes need to occur with players/coaches. We need at the very least 3 (maybe even 4) players to be cut loose because they don’t have the talent to compete at this level on either end of the floor. Targeting replacement players who help improve the issues and not some low major transfer who is proven to be erratic and turns it over at a high rate (for example). Signing Chartouney and Perez was just throwing crap at the wall at hoping it stuck...and it didn’t.

Lastly, Presutti and Judson need to be fired simply being for being complete nothings. If wojo won’t do it, then his boss must. I’m sick of the culture of promoting the video assistant intern or whatever to assistant coach. Cam will be next to be promoted. Wojo needs to be surrounded by more foreign entities who will challenge and hold him accountable.

While you are likely correct about the assistants, Scholl is not going to fire Wojo's coaches.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Silent Verbal on March 13, 2021, 09:59:35 AM
Nothing against Cam, but he was basically put on the team because of who his dad was, right?  He wouldn’t make the team at UW-Whitewater and couldn’t have been much use a walk on.  But I’m guessing his dad had a lot of friends on the BOT, which is a feather in Wojo’s cap in that regard.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: brewcity77 on March 13, 2021, 10:04:49 AM
While you are likely correct about the assistants, Scholl is not going to fire Wojo's coaches.

He won't, but it would be in the best interests of guys like Jake and Cam to promote to other programs, if only to learn within those systems and diversify their knowledge base. I think there are clear flaws when a coach spends his entire career in one system. It seems to limit flexibility and the ability to coach differently based on roster and situation.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: tower912 on March 13, 2021, 10:14:26 AM
He won't, but it would be in the best interests of guys like Jake and Cam to promote to other programs, if only to learn within those systems and diversify their knowledge base. I think there are clear flaws when a coach spends his entire career in one system. It seems to limit flexibility and the ability to coach differently based on roster and situation.

Agree about the one system being a weakness.   Especially never having experienced true failure within that system.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 13, 2021, 10:18:18 AM
I just do not see this magical land of milk and honey scenario next year where Wojo has regular and postseason success, stays at Marquette for the foreseeable future, and we all live happily ever after.  Like, do you honestly think that’s something that could happen (even though you really, really want it to)?

If Wojo has a good year next year, he will try to jump to another job to reset his coaching clock.  Unless he does something crazy like make a Final Four, he’ll be fired the next time he doesn’t make the tournament.  He also will not have Carton and Garcia in 22-23, I think we can all realistically say those guys will go pro after next season.  He can’t afford another rebuild.  For the sake of his own career, he needs to reset his coaching clock as quickly as possible.  He’d do it this year, but I doubt any school would have him.  And think about that:  We have a coach no one wants.

Some coaches think like that. Others don't. I think you underestimate how stubborn and afraid of failure Wojo is. I think he will hang on here until he can he either be viewed as a success or is forced out. We'll see. Personally, I was hoping he would be forced out this season.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Scoop Snoop on March 13, 2021, 10:44:49 AM
Some coaches think like that. Others don't. I think you underestimate how stubborn and afraid of failure Wojo is. I think he will hang on here until he can he either be viewed as a success or is forced out. We'll see. Personally, I was hoping he would be forced out this season.

Agree with your first comments about Wojo but disagree with part of the following sentence. The clean slate that comes with a new gig allows him to write his own story about his time at Marquette. Afraid of failure, stubborn? Yep. Being (eventually) viewed as a success? That ship has sailed.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: shoothoops on March 13, 2021, 10:54:53 AM
As per the thread title, forgiving and forgetting are two different things. In life, one can forgive yet still move in a different direction.

The concern many reasonably have is that it wouldn't take all that much "success" for MU to retain him after next season and keep the same discussion going year by year. MU doesn't seem to be concerned by the increased program apathy to this point.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: brewcity77 on March 13, 2021, 11:08:17 AM
Agree about the one system being a weakness.   Especially never having experienced true failure within that system.

If that's the case, Cam and Jake might be in better shape than I imagine  ;D
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 13, 2021, 11:47:56 AM
Actually, you just identified the middle ground. There is "is", "isn't", and "could be". Right now Wojo has pushed practically all of us into the "isn't" category. There's a theoretical performance next season that gets Wojo back into the "could be" category. I'm asking people what that is for them.

Cause I can guarantee you, if Wojo gets a top 4 seed or makes the Sweet 16, he's coming back no mater what anyone thinks of him. He's gone if doesn't make tournament no matter what anyone thinks of him. I don't know where the actual line is in between those two.

You really think he's gone if he doesn't make the tournament next season? What if he wins enough but game attendance is poor (10K or less) per game.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Hards Alumni on March 13, 2021, 12:30:02 PM
You really think he's gone if he doesn't make the tournament next season? What if he wins enough but game attendance is poor (10K or less) per game.

IMO, he is gone either way.  Fired or he has a good year and bolts.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 13, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
You really think he's gone if he doesn't make the tournament next season? What if he wins enough but game attendance is poor (10K or less) per game.

To your first question, 100%.

To your second question, if winning enough doesn't solve that than a new coach won't
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: muwarrior69 on March 13, 2021, 12:56:41 PM
To your first question, 100%.

To your second question, if winning enough doesn't solve that than a new coach won't

I really hate to say it but I hope we finish under .500 next season and hope you are right.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: CountryRoads on March 13, 2021, 12:58:13 PM
To your first question, 100%.

To your second question, if winning enough doesn't solve that than a new coach won't

Wouldn’t be so sure on the second point. Many MU fans have checked out on Wojo and winning some games won’t bring them back. I believe we were ranked in the top 25 and there were very loud boos for Wojo two seasons ago even during that time.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 13, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
Wouldn’t be so sure on the second point. Many MU fans have checked out on Wojo and winning some games won’t bring them back. I believe we were ranked in the top 25 and there were very loud boos for Wojo two seasons ago even during that time.

I should have added just hiring a new coach won't solve it. They would have to hire a new coach and they would need to win enough. I don't see someone uncancelling their season tickets just because we hired a new coach unless it was a huge name.
Title: Re: What Would It Take for Forgiveness?
Post by: Stretchdeltsig on March 13, 2021, 03:02:29 PM
He is incapable of it. Fact.

Spot on. He has proven clearly that he can't coach.