MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: f/k/a humanlung on March 10, 2021, 10:12:19 PM
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It only took nine years to go from a National Championship to Bob Dukiet.
We just finished year seven.
Just something to think about.
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Whoa, you're prolific this evening.
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At the very earliest, ~3,277 days will have elapsed between our last tournament win and our next chance.
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Whoa, you're prolific this evening.
I'm prolific every evening. I just like to spread it around. :)
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I'm prolific every evening. I just like to spread it around. :)
Howland woulda won the ‘ship at mu already.
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Counzo = S16
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Howland woulda won the ‘ship at mu already.
Just one?
Counzo = S16
Maybe. We'll see. Good coach ... who probably would have left Marquette for Mizzou.
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Howland woulda won the ‘ship at mu already.
Howland would have won an NCAA Tournament game by now...
And we probably wouldn't need to worry about losing to teams like DePaul.
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Howland would have won an NCAA Tournament game by now...
And we probably wouldn't need to worry about losing to teams like DePaul.
Winning at Mississippi State isn’t impossible. Howland’s time has passed. He isn’t the coach he was in 2005
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Just one?
Maybe. We'll see. Good coach ... who probably would have left Marquette for Mizzou.
I'm not sure he would have. Cal was a bad fit for many reasons.
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Winning at Mississippi State isn’t impossible. Howland’s time has passed. He isn’t the coach he was in 2005
Unfortunately Wojo may be (the coach he was in 2005).
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Unfortunately Wojo may be (the coach he was in 2005).
I don’t think Howland taking the job would have necessarily resulted in different results.
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I don’t think Howland taking the job would have necessarily resulted in different results.
It's funny. Had we hired Howland and, for sake of argument - let's say he duplicates record at MSU (one NCAAT appearance, bottom-half appearances in conference, etc.) - those that would be clamoring for Howland to be fired would be wanting to hire a young-up-and-coming assistant. For all of us that want Wojo gone, we want a proven head coach that is successful and knows how to be a head coach.
Regardless - when a head coach fails, it is almost guaranteed that the next hire is opposite (old/young, head/assistant, aggressive/passive, etc.).
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I don’t think Howland taking the job would have necessarily resulted in different results.
I’m not sure Howland would have been a whole lot better but I think Wojo like results would have been his floor. And if that’s what he delivered he would be gone.
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I’m not sure Howland would have been a whole lot better but I think Wojo like results would have been his floor. And if that’s what he delivered he would be gone.
That’s probably fair.
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I'm not sure he would have. Cal was a bad fit for many reasons.
We'll never know.
I will admit that I was fine with Wojo over Cuonzo back in 2014. But today, using 20/20 hindsight, sure, I wish we would have hired Cuonzo instead of Wojo, if indeed he really did want to come to Marquette.
Had no interest at all in Howland, a retread with considerable baggage.
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We'll never know.
I will admit that I was fine with Wojo over Cuonzo back in 2014. But today, using 20/20 hindsight, sure, I wish we would have hired Cuonzo instead of Wojo, if indeed he really did want to come to Marquette.
Had no interest at all in Howland, a retread with considerable baggage.
Cuonzo I would've been fine with. Everything I was told is that his interview sunk his chances, but with the value of hindsight, I'd love to know how that would've worked out. And knowing how this did work out, I'd have rather had a few years of Cuonzo and gone back into the coaching market than be where we are now.
Agree on Howland. So much of the UCLA stuff was coming out then, he was a guy Marquette wasn't going to touch. I get that similarly they wouldn't have looked at Jans or Pearl. That said, they absolutely, 100% should've looked at Kelvin Sampson. Excellent coach who was given a show cause for things that aren't even NCAA violations anymore! When the violations aren't violations anymore, what are we even talking about? Having issues with Sampson when he was available is like having a bias against people released now for marijuana violations in states where their crimes have been decriminalized. That was the home run hire of 2014 and we didn't even step up to the plate.
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Cuonzo I would've been fine with. Everything I was told is that his interview sunk his chances, but with the value of hindsight, I'd love to know how that would've worked out. And knowing how this did work out, I'd have rather had a few years of Cuonzo and gone back into the coaching market than be where we are now.
Agree on Howland. So much of the UCLA stuff was coming out then, he was a guy Marquette wasn't going to touch. I get that similarly they wouldn't have looked at Jans or Pearl. That said, they absolutely, 100% should've looked at Kelvin Sampson. Excellent coach who was given a show cause for things that aren't even NCAA violations anymore! When the violations aren't violations anymore, what are we even talking about? Having issues with Sampson when he was available is like having a bias against people released now for marijuana violations in states where their crimes have been decriminalized. That was the home run hire of 2014 and we didn't even step up to the plate.
I suppose. But they were rules at the time, and Sampson already had broken them at Oklahoma and then brazenly broke them again at Indiana.
I get your pot reference, and might even agree with it, but there was a reason that P5 schools also weren't clamoring to hire Sampson despite his outstanding record. After Buzz, MU's honchos were determined to hire somebody with absolutely no marks against him.
But sure, I'd have taken Sampson, too.
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At my age 7 years is the longest of time and it is the shortest of time.
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Cuonzo I would've been fine with. Everything I was told is that his interview sunk his chances, but with the value of hindsight, I'd love to know how that would've worked out.
I was not a big fan of the Cuonz.
I don't like UT retreads.
We are (should be) Marquette.
We do not (should not) take retreads from second rate basketball powers.
The fact that the Cuonz is looking good to us suggests how far our program has fallen.
That truly depresses me.
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I was not a big fan of the Cuonz.
I don't like UT retreads.
We are (should be) Marquette.
We do not (should not) take retreads from second rate basketball powers.
The fact that the Cuonz is looking good to us suggests how far our program has fallen.
That truly depresses me.
To be fair he was looking good to us in 2014 when we'd gone to 10/13 NCAAs and were ending our 2nd best stretch in program history
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I was not a big fan of the Cuonz.
I don't like UT retreads.
We are (should be) Marquette.
We do not (should not) take retreads from second rate basketball powers.
The fact that the Cuonz is looking good to us suggests how far our program has fallen.
That truly depresses me.
I don’t know that he was a retread. Tennessee fans were unhappy about losing Pearl and had unrealistic expectations. Based on their football team, fan expectations don’t always mesh with reality.
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Howland would have won an NCAA Tournament game by now...
And we probably wouldn't need to worry about losing to teams like DePaul.
Howland's team is currently losing by 30 to Alabama in the SEC tournament.
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Howland's team is currently losing by 30 to Alabama in the SEC tournament.
True. I am watching the game.
Horrible shooting day - less than 5% from 3pt so far. It happens.
But you know what? No announcers are saying the team has quit. In fact they are playing their respective backsides off.
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True. I am watching the game.
Horrible shooting day - less than 5% from 3pt so far. It happens.
But you know what? No announcers are saying the team has quit. In fact they are playing their respective backsides off.
Wonderful. They suck but still try hard. SIGN HIM UP!!!!
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Wonderful. They suck but still try hard. SIGN HIM UP!!!!
Better than sucking and not trying hard, like MU did - and as called out on national television by in-game announcers and the halftime show.
In case you haven't read it before: I AM NOT SAYING TO HIRE HOWLAND NOW. I am saying he was the better choice seven years ago.
And today's game does not change the FACT that Howland, on his worst day, is a better all-around coach than Wojo. You don't get to multiple FFs and win numerous conference championships (in the much tougher Old Big East, especially) without being a good coach.
You may not like Howland or what he did at UCLA (and I get that) but it does not change the historic record in any way, shape or form. Based on that record (and what he is doing to turn around a turd of an MSU program), any sane person would agree that Howland knows what he is doing.
Wojo, on the other hand...
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Better than sucking and not trying hard, like MU did - and as called out on national television by in-game announcers and the halftime show.
In case you haven't read it before: I AM NOT SAYING TO HIRE HOWLAND NOW. I am saying he was the better choice seven years ago.
And today's game does not change the FACT that Howland, on his worst day, is a better all-around coach than Wojo. You don't get to multiple FFs and win numerous conference championships (in the much tougher Old Big East, especially) without being a good coach.
You may not like Howland or what he did at UCLA (and I get that) but it does not change the historic record in any way, shape or form. Based on that record (and what he is doing to turn around a turd of an MSU program), any sane person would agree that Howland knows what he is doing.
Wojo, on the other hand...
Absolutely correct.
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Better than sucking and not trying hard, like MU did - and as called out on national television by in-game announcers and the halftime show.
In case you haven't read it before: I AM NOT SAYING TO HIRE HOWLAND NOW. I am saying he was the better choice seven years ago.
And today's game does not change the FACT that Howland, on his worst day, is a better all-around coach than Wojo. You don't get to multiple FFs and win numerous conference championships (in the much tougher Old Big East, especially) without being a good coach.
You may not like Howland or what he did at UCLA (and I get that) but it does not change the historic record in any way, shape or form. Based on that record (and what he is doing to turn around a turd of an MSU program), any sane person would agree that Howland knows what he is doing.
Wojo, on the other hand...
Ben Howland has three losing records in league play in 6 years at Mississippi State. Rick Stansbury had 3 in 14 years.
Maybe Ben doesn’t know what he’s doing
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Ben Howland has three losing records in league play in 6 years at Mississippi State. Rick Stansbury had 3 in 14 years.
Maybe Ben doesn’t know what he’s doing
He's getting them out of the way early duh
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I don't care what the announcers said; Marquette did not stop "trying hard" in the Georgetown game. Our players were still diving on the floor with a few minutes to go in a hopeless game.
"They wanted the game more" and "The effort's just not there" and similar ... that's all jock-speak and coach-speak -- and nobody should expect anything else from ex-jock and ex-coach announcers. Cliches and meaningless dribble.
Marquette played terribly, and Wojo coached poorly. We sucked. We lost big to a bad team. Wojo should be fired. Yes, yes, yes and yes.
But stop impugning the character of these young men who have busted their butts for years for Marquette and didn't quit Wednesday.
While Howland's pathetic team was losing by 800 points to Alabama, Mississippi State's players didn't try any effen harder than ours did against Georgetown.
Ridiculous.
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Ben Howland has three losing records in league play in 6 years at Mississippi State. Rick Stansbury had 3 in 14 years.
Maybe Ben doesn’t know what he’s doing
Respectfully, in between the two was Rick Ray who went a combined 37-60 (13-41 in conference).
This is an small but important (and pertinent to MU) point.
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Respectfully, in between the two was Rick Ray who went a combined 37-60 (13-41 in conference).
This is an small but important (and pertinent to MU) point.
So you're saying you're OK with a coach who was hired to do a fix a program -- a guy who undoubtedly sold himself on his ability to fix a program -- but has clearly not fixed a program?
Cool.
Let's argue some more about stuff that can't possible be proven.
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Better than sucking and not trying hard, like MU did - and as called out on national television by in-game announcers and the halftime show.
In case you haven't read it before: I AM NOT SAYING TO HIRE HOWLAND NOW. I am saying he was the better choice seven years ago.
And today's game does not change the FACT that Howland, on his worst day, is a better all-around coach than Wojo. You don't get to multiple FFs and win numerous conference championships (in the much tougher Old Big East, especially) without being a good coach.
You may not like Howland or what he did at UCLA (and I get that) but it does not change the historic record in any way, shape or form. Based on that record (and what he is doing to turn around a turd of an MSU program), any sane person would agree that Howland knows what he is doing.
Wojo, on the other hand...
Howland was not the better choice. At best he was as poor a choice as Wojo.
Great hill to die on by the way.
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I don't care what the announcers said; Marquette did not stop "trying hard" in the Georgetown game. Our players were still diving on the floor with a few minutes to go in a hopeless game.
"They wanted the game more" and "The effort's just not there" and similar ... that's all jock-speak and coach-speak -- and nobody should expect anything else from ex-jock and ex-coach announcers. Cliches and meaningless dribble.
Marquette played terribly, and Wojo coached poorly. We sucked. We lost big to a bad team. Wojo should be fired. Yes, yes, yes and yes.
But stop impugning the character of these young men who have busted their butts for years for Marquette and didn't quit Wednesday.
While Howland's pathetic team was losing by 800 points to Alabama, Mississippi State's players didn't try any effen harder than ours did against Georgetown.
Ridiculous.
I repeated what was said on national TV. EVERYONE who was watching was capable of hearing it AND seeing it. Even DJ said something to that effect after the game. Look it up. It's on this board.
I cannot remember hearing statements like that about MU EVER and have a hard time recalling it for any other team. In the first half, that analysis was not "jock speak", it was spot on accurate - sorry if this "triggers" you - but it was true. It got better in the second half, a testament to what Wojo said at half and indicative that the team was still listening to him BUT THE FACT IT HAPPENED AT ALL IS INEXCUSABLE.
And if you think getting beat by 30 by #6 ranked Alabama is even remotely close to getting beat by completely-and-totally-unranked-in-every-respect Georgetown by 19, you are the one who is ridiculous.
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I repeated what was said on national TV. EVERYONE who was watching was capable of hearing it AND seeing it. Even DJ said something to that effect after the game. Look it up. It's on this board.
I cannot remember hearing statements like that about MU EVER and have a hard time recalling it for any other team. In the first half, that analysis was not "jock speak", it was spot on accurate - sorry if this "triggers" you - but it was true. It got better in the second half, a testament to what Wojo said at half and indicative that the team was still listening to him BUT THE FACT IT HAPPENED AT ALL IS INEXCUSABLE.
I'm not wading into any of this Howland stuff, but agree with the above. The comments were from someone without an axe to grind.
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So you're saying you're OK with a coach who was hired to do a fix a program -- a guy who undoubtedly sold himself on his ability to fix a program -- but has clearly not fixed a program?
Cool.
Let's argue some more about stuff that can't possible be proven.
Here are the respective records:
MU
2015/2016: 20-13, no post season
2016/2017: 19-13, NCAA 1st round loss (20 point loss to South Carolina)
2017/2018: 21-14, NIT quarters
2018/2019: 24-10, NCAA 1st round loss (19 point loss to Murray State)
2019/2020: 18-12, T6th in BE
2020/2021: 13-14, 8th in BE, 1st round BET loss, no post season
Mississippi State
2015/2016: 14-17, no post season
2016/2017: 16-16, no post season
2017/2018: 25-12, NIT semis
2018/2019: 23-11, NCAA 1st round loss (4pt loss to Liberty)
2019/2020: 20-11, T4th in SEC
2020/2021: 14-13, 9th in SEC, advanced to 2nd round of SEC tournament
Wojo was front-loaded with good results (regular season, we all know how the post season has been...) and he has been fading, despite the presence of the greatest scorer in MU history.
Howland sucked early but got a lot better in years three through five. To be expected given his starting point.
This year was essentially even.
I think if you ask anyone from MSU if Howland is fixing the program, I would bet their opinion would differ from yours.
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I'm not wading into any of this Howland stuff, but agree with the above. The comments were from someone without an axe to grind.
And the conference records:
MU
15/16: 8-10
16/17: 10-8
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 12-6
19/20: 8-10
20/21: 8-11
Overall: 55-54 (excludes the 14/15 year (4-14) that pre-dates Howland at MSU)
MSU
15/16: 7-11
16/17: 6-12
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 10-8
19/20: 11-7
20/21: 8-10
Overall: 51-57
And, AGAIN, MUs record in the five years preceding Wojo was WAY better than the five years preceding Howland. A much better jump off point than Howland had.
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I think if you ask anyone from MSU if Howland is fixing the program, I would bet their opinion would differ from yours.
LOL, not really. They are generally fed up with him.
https://www.elitedawgs.com/forumdisplay.php?2-Elitedawgs
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And the conference records:
MU
15/16: 8-10
16/17: 10-8
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 12-6
19/20: 8-10
20/21: 8-11
Overall: 55-54 (excludes the 14/15 year (4-14) that pre-dates Howland at MSU)
MSU
15/16: 7-11
16/17: 6-12
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 10-8
19/20: 11-7
20/21: 8-10
Overall: 51-57
And, AGAIN, MUs record in the five years preceding Wojo was WAY better than the five eyars preceding Howland. A much better jump off point than Howland had.
Honest question, has the SEC been considered a harder conference at any point during that time?
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I gotta admit, humanlung is impressively committed to the "that mediocre coach is better than our mediocre coach" narrative.
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Honest question, has the SEC been considered a harder conference at any point during that time?
I do not know.
I know that the SEC has sent three teams to the FF in the time period I am debating (Kentucky, S. Carolina and Auburn) but Villanova has won the whole thing twice.
Per ESPN, these are the NCAA bids per conference since 2011.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28746253/which-conferences-make-most-their-ncaa-tournament-seeds
From the TWO tables in the link:
1) Overall Bids
Big East: 60 overall (since 2014: 32 in new BE)
SEC: 43 overall (ESPN didn't take the time to do the math on since 2014)
2) Average Seed:
BE: 6.05 (6.50 in new BE)
SEC: 6.14
3) # of Champions:
BE: 4 (2 in the new BE)
SEC: 1
4) % to Sweet 16
BE: 21.7% (12.5% in new BE)
SEC: 44.2%
5) % to FF:
BE: 10.0% (6.3% in new BE)
SEC: 16.3%
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I gotta admit, humanlung is impressively committed to the "that mediocre coach is better than our mediocre coach" narrative.
LOL.
Damn right I am!
That was well-played. Gotta give credit where credit is due...
On this note can we/should we all just agree that Wojo sucks and call it a day?
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I repeated what was said on national TV. EVERYONE who was watching was capable of hearing it AND seeing it. Even DJ said something to that effect after the game. Look it up. It's on this board.
I cannot remember hearing statements like that about MU EVER and have a hard time recalling it for any other team. In the first half, that analysis was not "jock speak", it was spot on accurate - sorry if this "triggers" you - but it was true. It got better in the second half, a testament to what Wojo said at half and indicative that the team was still listening to him BUT THE FACT IT HAPPENED AT ALL IS INEXCUSABLE.
And if you think getting beat by 30 by #6 ranked Alabama is even remotely close to getting beat by completely-and-totally-unranked-in-every-respect Georgetown by 19, you are the one who is ridiculous.
You’re allowed to be wrong, both about our players quitting and about Howland.
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You’re allowed to be wrong, both about our players quitting and about Howland.
Oh...now I understand. You're a member of Congress.
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I'm not wading into any of this Howland stuff, but agree with the above. The comments were from someone without an axe to grind.
I didn’t contend that any of the announcers had an axe to grind or ulterior motives or any of that. I said it was jock-speak and coach-speak, which it was.
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I do not know.
I do.
Conference rankings per KenPom
20-21: BE 4th SEC 3rd
19-20: BE 3rd SEC 6th
18-19: BE 5th SEC 4th
17-18: BE 3rd SEC 4th
16-17: BE 3rd SEC 5th
15-16: BE 3rd SEC 6th
This is why I asked earlier what the significance of overall record was when they played very different schedules. The Big East has been better than the SEC 4/6 of Howland's years and the two years that it was better, it was only ranked 1 spot higher. The Big East was ranked 2-3 spots higher in 3/4 years.
Howland did not do well last year despite a 20 win season (just like Wojo didn't do well in year 2). He racked up a lot of wins in a conference whose top team that season was ranked 29th in KenPom (Kentucky). Mississippi State won exactly one game against a KenPom top 45 team (#32 Florida). They also lost multiple games to sub-100 KenPom teams (#102 Ole Miss and #131 Texas A&M). There's a reason that no one was projecting them in the field prior to COVID.
Howland peaked in year 4. His last two years have been bad. His fans are restless as well. One more year of a similar performance to Wojo and he may be gone.
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Oh...now I understand. You're a member of Congress.
You tried to show evidence of Howland’s superiority over Wojo since he got to Mississippi State, but the facts failed to support your claim.
You have provided no evidence to support your claim that our alma mater’s basketball team quit; an ex-jock spouting cliches is not evidence, neither are DJ’s cliches in the aftermath of a disappointing loss.
You have opinions. We all do. My opinion is that your opinions about Marquette’s players quitting and about Howland are wrong.
I don’t know what Congress has to do with anything. Sounds like somebody who failed to prove his thesis just making a political statement for the hell of it.
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I was not a big fan of the Cuonz.
I don't like UT retreads.
We are (should be) Marquette.
We do not (should not) take retreads from second rate basketball powers.
The fact that the Cuonz is looking good to us suggests how far our program has fallen.
That truly depresses me.
He wasn't a retread. What are you talking about? At the time he was the sitting coach of a high major, had won double digit SEC games 3 years running, and was fresh off the Sweet 16. He was also 42 years old with 6 years experience at two programs. I don't think you know what a retread is.
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And the conference records:
MU
15/16: 8-10
16/17: 10-8
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 12-6
19/20: 8-10
20/21: 8-11
Overall: 55-54 (excludes the 14/15 year (4-14) that pre-dates Howland at MSU)
MSU
15/16: 7-11
16/17: 6-12
17/18: 9-9
18/19: 10-8
19/20: 11-7
20/21: 8-10
Overall: 51-57
And, AGAIN, MUs record in the five years preceding Wojo was WAY better than the five years preceding Howland. A much better jump off point than Howland had.
Why don't you ever talk about starting point in terms of talent on the roster?
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I didn’t contend that any of the announcers had an axe to grind or ulterior motives or any of that. I said it was jock-speak and coach-speak, which it was.
I mean, it was 'jock speak' or 'coach speak' in that they literally didn't quit and walk off the floor. But we have the announcer saying it, DJ making reference to effort, and then you saying it's not true because you don't want it to be. I think I know whose opinion(s) I'm gonna trust.
And I don't say it to dog the kids either. Last game of the season, getting blown out, looking to the bench for answers and finding none. They're all good kids, I'm not gonna blame them.
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You tried to show evidence of Howland’s superiority over Wojo since he got to Mississippi State, but the facts failed to support your claim.
You have provided no evidence to support your claim that our alma mater’s basketball team quit; an ex-jock spouting cliches is not evidence, neither are DJ’s cliches in the aftermath of a disappointing loss.
You have opinions. We all do. My opinion is that your opinions about Marquette’s players quitting and about Howland are wrong.
I don’t know what Congress has to do with anything. Sounds like somebody who failed to prove his thesis just making a political statement for the hell of it.
It wasn't political.
It's because members of Congress are narcissistic, know-it-all excretion openings.
I'm sorry I had to explain that.
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It wasn't political.
It's because members of Congress are narcissistic, know-it-all excretion openings.
I'm sorry I had to explain that.
*holds up mirror*
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It wasn't political.
It's because members of Congress are narcissistic, know-it-all excretion openings.
I'm sorry I had to explain that.
This:
*holds up mirror*
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I was not a big fan of the Cuonz.
I don't like UT retreads.
We are (should be) Marquette.
We do not (should not) take retreads from second rate basketball powers.
The fact that the Cuonz is looking good to us suggests how far our program has fallen.
That truly depresses me.
In his 3 seasons at Tennessee, only two coaches had a higher league winning percentage than Cuonzo Martin, Billy Donovan, and John Calipari. In his 3rd season his team was one basket (some would call it a questionable call) from the Elite 8.
Martin turned down a contract extension to leave. Before he even had a chance at Tennessee, budgets were cut in 7 figure amounts for him vs Bruce Pearl's tenure. And 40k people had signed a petition to bring back Pearl. The administration wasn't supportive. When he left for Tennessee the support of his team was considered unprecedented by some at the time. He and his family endured a great deal of racism at the time as well.
You may also want to take a closer look at Tennessee basketball and Marquette basketball. One of those schools has made the 2nd weekend more often than the other the past 40 plus years. I will give you a hint. That school isn't Marquette.
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*holds up mirror*
naginiF, we are expressing opinions here. I, obviously, and as Fluffy humorously pointed out, feel strongly about my opinion.
I, however, would never be so arrogant as to invite someone with a different opinion to accept that they are wrong in their belief.
Perhaps this is horribly un-Woke of me but I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
As to holding up a mirror, in many occasions on this board I have stated an opinion that has been rebutted with factual evidence showing I am wrong. In every instance that I am aware of, I have admitted my error and, many times, thanked the person for correcting me.
In the future, please feel free to express your opinion as well but before calling someone out, please do a little more homework so your target identification is better.