MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on December 24, 2020, 11:11:00 AM
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A few years ago, Wojo realized that having two small guards on the floor at the same time was not sustainable. Since then, DJ is the smallest guard to come to MU. Lots of 6'3-4 guards. Great.
Wojo was able to replace the Hausers with Lewis, Garcia, and Osa. Well done. Aidoo is a mobile 7 footer. Awesome.
Where are the switchables? Speedy 6'5-8 guys who can defend 4-5 different positions? Because you cannot defend Villanova's 5 out with post defenders and slow forwards. Wings who can dribble and shoot 3s.
I look at the unused scholarships and notice the lack of wings.
You want better defense? Speed and versatility. Big guards are nice. Perhaps playing 4 big guards could have been an adjustment last night. But then you have athletic 6'7 guys posting Greg or DJ without enough size to help at the rim.
So, balance. I like the notion of athletic big forwards. (Garcia, Lewis, Osa, Aidoo) and guards with size. (Every guard next year). Use the last scholarships and get some versatile 6'6ish guys
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There will never really be perfect roster construction. I do get your point but we seem to have enough talent to win this year and hopefully we will as the schedule eases up a bit. I think Wojo needs to figure it out. All of us would like the perfect roster of switchables with height, speed and athleticism. But I believe numerous other coaches would squeeze a decent amount of success out of this group.
Let’s see if Wojo can do it. The betting man would say no at this point. The smart money is on a new coach more likely to get the job done than Wojo. I still hold out hope. The light is flickering on and off and seems ready to go out however.
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The two freshmen will get better defensively as they mature. Lewis makes a lot of mistakes on defense.
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A couple of Nova-like skilled mobile 6’6” or 6’7” wings who can shoot would add a lot to this program to build on the current frosh bigs and Aidoo. Need flexibility.
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Where are the switchables? Speedy 6'5-8 guys who can defend 4-5 different positions?
Agree...but every major program in the country is after the few dozen guys like that in the top 200. MU's problem last night was that all of our legit switchables (except Jamal) were freshmen who are still learning the D. We can hide that against a lot of programs, but Nova took full advantage.
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Agree...but every major program in the country is after the few dozen guys like that in the top 200. MU's problem last night was that all of our legit switchables (except Jamal) were freshmen who are still learning the D. We can hide that against a lot of programs, but Nova took full advantage.
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Right now he has nobody to play the wing next year unless he thinks Perez is the answer, if he thinks he is the answer, why is he not playing? Maybe Akanno but he looks more like a guard. I can see another transfer.
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A couple of Nova-like skilled mobile 6’6” or 6’7” wings who can shoot would add a lot to this program to build on the current frosh bigs and Aidoo. Need flexibility.
Hopefully, Oso develops into one of these people.
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It's not the players, it's not the recruiting (now... during the midget era it was a problem).
The problem is the system. The offense prevents open looks and uses time poorly and restricts ball movement and is too easy to defend.
The defense never changes. Easy switches, never going over screens even on a hot shooter.
Opposing coaches - especially in the conference - know exactly what MU will do in every situation and even the worst can come up with something to top Wojo's "system".
It looked to me like Nova didn't even prep for MU. Wright let them play for about 10 minutes and then adjusted offense and defense and just took over the game.
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It's not the players, it's not the recruiting (now... during the midget era it was a problem).
The problem is the system. The offense prevents open looks and uses time poorly and restricts ball movement and is too easy to defend.
The defense never changes. Easy switches, never going over screens even on a hot shooter.
Opposing coaches - especially in the conference - know exactly what MU will do in every situation and even the worst can come up with something to top Wojo's "system".
It looked to me like Nova didn't even prep for MU. Wright let them play for about 10 minutes and then adjusted offense and defense and just took over the game.
Sometimes I just close my eyes and think about what Brian Wardle has done at Uwgb and Bradley.
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He is probably next when Wojo leaves.
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He is probably next when Wojo leaves.
And why not? Wojo has not done jack squat. Just the facts
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Bradley lost to Xavier by 1. MU lost by 3. That means Wardle is 3x better than Wojo.
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Bradley lost to Xavier by 1. MU lost by 3. That means Wardle is 3x better than Wojo.
He’s really done a remarkable job at two extremely difficult places to win. Incremental growth each season.
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Don't agree dat Woj iz da tits wit recruitin'. Plus, few get bedder in his system. He duzant float my boat, aina?
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It's not the players, it's not the recruiting (now... during the midget era it was a problem).
The problem is the system. The offense prevents open looks and uses time poorly and restricts ball movement and is too easy to defend.
The defense never changes. Easy switches, never going over screens even on a hot shooter.
Opposing coaches - especially in the conference - know exactly what MU will do in every situation and even the worst can come up with something to top Wojo's "system".
It looked to me like Nova didn't even prep for MU. Wright let them play for about 10 minutes and then adjusted offense and defense and just took over the game.
Or maybe by the 10 minute mark couple of our key players were in foul trouble and Nova is team that is way better than our team. Nova looks like a legit top 4-5 team. Nova is way ahead of every BE team, they might lose 2 games in BE. Our team will improve. We will have the chance to beat every other team besides Nova, I believe we go 0-2 or 0-3 against them.
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As recently as a few months ago, the knee-jerk reaction whenever Wardle's name came up was of sheer horror. Nooooooo!
But he clearly has done a good job in two spots, and his next logical move is to the P6 level. Some school at that level will make him a head coach, perhaps as soon as next season.
It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be on Scoop if Marquette is that school.
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As recently as a few months ago, the knee-jerk reaction whenever Wardle's name came up was of sheer horror. Nooooooo!
But he clearly has done a good job in two spots, and his next logical move is to the P6 level. Some school at that level will make him a head coach, perhaps as soon as next season.
It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be on Scoop if Marquette is that school.
Fwiw, Bradley is currently 4-3 against Div I schools including a loss to South Dakota State.
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Some will celebrate. Some will lament not getting a bigger name.
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Pass, hey?
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Fwiw, Bradley is currently 4-3 against Div I schools including a loss to South Dakota State.
They lost to x and mizzou by one point each game this year.
He took over Bradley when they were one of the worst programs in the country and took them to the ncaa tournament last season. He had won at GB which is a brutal job.
But he lost to South Dakota state this year...
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As recently as a few months ago, the knee-jerk reaction whenever Wardle's name came up was of sheer horror. Nooooooo!
But he clearly has done a good job in two spots, and his next logical move is to the P6 level. Some school at that level will make him a head coach, perhaps as soon as next season.
It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be on Scoop if Marquette is that school.
Any Shaka or Cuonzo updates?
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He took over Bradley when they were one of the worst programs in the country and took them to the ncaa tournament last season.
Not actually to the tournament since it didn't happen, but Wardle was one of a very few coaches to legitimately earn a NCAA bid last year, since they won the MVC Tournament before things were shut down.
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Not actually to the tournament since it didn't happen, but Wardle was one of a very few coaches to legitimately earn a NCAA bid last year, since they won the MVC Tournament before things were shut down.
Lol they would’ve played at least one game in the cancelled tournament.
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Any Shaka or Cuonzo updates?
Sure.
Shaka: In his 6th season at Texas, he looks like he might finally have a season better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Cuonzo: After three years of using Cal as a stepping-stone school (and losing his only NCAA tournament game there), and now in his fourth season at Mizzou, it looks like he might finally have a year better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Neither of them has had a season even as good as 2018-19 was for Wojo, but maybe one or both finally will this year. Which would be wonderful for them.
Thanks for asking!
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Sure.
Shaka: In his 6th season at Texas, he looks like he might finally have a season better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Cuonzo: After three years of using Cal as a stepping-stone school (and losing his only NCAA tournament game there), and now in his fourth season at Mizzou, it looks like he might finally have a year better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Neither of them has had a season even as good as 2018-19 was for Wojo, but maybe one or both finally will this year. Which would be wonderful for them.
Thanks for asking!
Howland will be next, who is slightly below Wojo's par.
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Pass, hey?
Meatlover -
Who do you want? Who's your list?
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Sure.
Shaka: In his 6th season at Texas, he looks like he might finally have a season better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Cuonzo: After three years of using Cal as a stepping-stone school (and losing his only NCAA tournament game there), and now in his fourth season at Mizzou, it looks like he might finally have a year better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Neither of them has had a season even as good as 2018-19 was for Wojo, but maybe one or both finally will this year. Which would be wonderful for them.
Thanks for asking!
Some context helps. Some of this is apples to oranges.
Mizzou had won 27 games total in the previous three seasons prior to Cuonzo Martin. He didn't exactly inherit a good situation going back several years. It was a mess.
Michael Porter Jr. injured his back in his first game, had to have back surgery, and was done for the year before being drafted 14th by the Denver Nuggets. His brother Jontay tore his MCL and ACL in a scrimmage. Then he tore one of them again the following Spring. He currently plays for Memphis Grizzlies. Injuries however are part of the game. But again, some context helps.
As for using Cal as a stepping stone job, that isn't what happened. He's from St. Louis. East St. Louis to be exact. (Lincoln High School w/LaPhonso Ellis).
He did use Missouri St. As a stepping stone job for Tennessee. His teams improved each of his 3 years at MO St. He then made the Sweet 16 in his 3rd season at Tennessee. The Racism and other things he endured while at Tennesee have been well documented. So he left after that season.
After improving each of his 3 seasons at Missouri St., Cuonzo Martin made the Sweet 16 in his 3rd year at Tennessee. The Booster Racism has been well documented as one of the reasons why he left after that season.
This is his 4th season at Mizzou. We'll see how it goes for him moving forward.
Shaka Smart inherited back to back NCAA teams, and 16 out of 17 Rick Barnes NCAA teams that included a Final Four, a few Elite 8's, a few Sweet 16's etc...
This is Shaka's 6th season. He's basically one NCAA ahead of Wojo to this point during each's first six seasons. We'll see how it goes for him.
Wojo has completed 6 seasons with 3 NCAA trips. He inherited a non NCAA team after 3 straight MU 2nd weekend runs before that.
We'll see how it goes for him.
And of course MU could have hired several other candidates at the time as well.
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Meatlover -
Who do you want? Who's your list?
Kant wate four dis.....
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I want ners. Or 5 dollar pitcher.
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Some context helps.
OK. Thanks for providing that.
When Projos try to provide context, it is called "making excuses." But sure, there's always reasons for this, that and the other thing.
Bottom line is that neither Shaka nor Cuonzo has done anything better where they are than Wojo has at Marquette. Maybe this will be the year that they both leave Wojo in the dust. Maybe it isn't. We'll see!
And of course MU could have hired several other candidates at the time as well.
Sure. Coulda hired Wardle or retread Howland or (choose a name). But they didn't.
Look, the fact that neither Shaka nor Cuonzo nor other alleged candidates have not done any more than Wojo has is not an adequate defense of Wojo.
One of our fellow Scoopers asked if I had any Shaka or Cuonzo updates ... and so I provided them. The operative words are: "We'll see."
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Look, the fact that neither Shaka nor Cuonzo nor other alleged candidates have not done any more than Wojo has is not an adequate defense of Wojo.
You are right; Wojo has to succeed or fail on his own merits.
Still, the lackluster performance of the other candidates shows that the grass isn’t always greener somewhere else. If MU fires Wojo this year, there’s a chance his successor could end up looking more like Shaka or Cuonzo in a few years....
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You are right; Wojo has to succeed or fail on his own merits.
Still, the lackluster performance of the other candidates shows that the grass isn’t always greener somewhere else. If MU fires Wojo this year, there’s a chance his successor could end up looking more like Shaka or Cuonzo in a few years....
Agreed.
Then again, if it's deemed that firing Wojo is necessary, the fear that his replacement might not be better or that Wojo will go elsewhere and learn how to be a better coach are not adequate reasons to retain him.
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Cuonzo: After three years of using Cal as a stepping-stone school (and losing his only NCAA tournament game there), and now in his fourth season at Mizzou, it looks like he might finally have a year better than Wojo's best seasons at Marquette, though we'll have to see.
Neither of them has had a season even as good as 2018-19 was for Wojo, but maybe one or both finally will this year. Which would be wonderful for them.
Cuonzo earned a 4-seed in 2016. Not trying to laid his accomplishments, but there's a pretty safe argument that was better than Wojo's best year (5-seed) at Marquette.
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Kant wate four dis.....
You’ll be waiting awhile for any answer or anything of substance from the meat clowns.
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A few years ago, Wojo realized that having two small guards on the floor at the same time was not sustainable. Since then, DJ is the smallest guard to come to MU. Lots of 6'3-4 guards. Great.
Wojo was able to replace the Hausers with Lewis, Garcia, and Osa. Well done. Aidoo is a mobile 7 footer. Awesome.
Where are the switchables? Speedy 6'5-8 guys who can defend 4-5 different positions? Because you cannot defend Villanova's 5 out with post defenders and slow forwards. Wings who can dribble and shoot 3s.
I look at the unused scholarships and notice the lack of wings.
You want better defense? Speed and versatility. Big guards are nice. Perhaps playing 4 big guards could have been an adjustment last night. But then you have athletic 6'7 guys posting Greg or DJ without enough size to help at the rim.
So, balance. I like the notion of athletic big forwards. (Garcia, Lewis, Osa, Aidoo) and guards with size. (Every guard next year). Use the last scholarships and get some versatile 6'6ish guys
You are talking about the next step. You are correct.
Step one was to stop the bleeding and be respectable.
Step two was to be competitive.
Step three was to start building a program.
Step three is to finish the cake, to put icing on the cake, to fill in the last parts.
Step four will be to win at the highest leve.
Step five will be to continue the momentum and be sustainable.
So much is clear in hindsight.
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Cuonzo earned a 4-seed in 2016. Not trying to laid his accomplishments, but there's a pretty safe argument that was better than Wojo's best year (5-seed) at Marquette.
And, as I mentioned, Wojo has had two more seasons completed at Marquette than Cuonzo has had at Mizzou. It isn't apples to apples for MU82 or anyone else to discount those couple of seasons.
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One step at a time. The possible successors become apparent further along in the process after it has been determined that a change needs to be made, hey?
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Cuonzo earned a 4-seed in 2016. Not trying to laid his accomplishments, but there's a pretty safe argument that was better than Wojo's best year (5-seed) at Marquette.
A zillion apologies. Cuonzo has CRUSHED Wojo!
I'm sure Cal fans are as thrilled about that 11-point loss to Hawaii and its many future NBA stars as we all are thrilled about Wojo's 19-point humiliation at the hands of Ja Morant.
In hindsight, I guess we would have been better off seeing Cuonzo starting to build something at Marquette only to bolt after 3 years when the Mizzou job opened up.
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And, as I mentioned, Wojo has had two more seasons completed at Marquette than Cuonzo has had at Mizzou. It isn't apples to apples for MU82 or anyone else to discount those couple of seasons.
The definition of cherry picking.
Compare Marquette with the top 50 programs, do an algorithm (hay Auburn). Something like Kenprom and factor in changes in coaches, academic requirements, facilities, exposure, ranking of cheerleaders if you want. Who knows how many relevant factors there are?
The market of available coaches over time. The sucess of mid-major coaches moving up. The success or failure of recycled coaches or first time head coaches? It would be a very interesting and complex spreadsheet. In a way, well beyond my pay grade.
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A zillion apologies. Cuonzo has CRUSHED Wojo!
I'm sure Cal fans are as thrilled about that 11-point loss to Hawaii and its many future NBA stars as we all are thrilled about Wojo's 19-point humiliation at the hands of Ja Morant.
In hindsight, I guess we would have been better off seeing Cuonzo starting to build something at Marquette only to bolt after 3 years when the Mizzou job opened up.
I was simply addressing your point. Not looking to open up a hyperbolic discussion about the two.
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I was simply addressing your point. Not looking to open up a hyperbolic discussion about the two.
Duly noted.
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One step at a time. The possible successors become apparent further along in the process after it has been determined that a change needs to be made, hey?
You learn that type of non-answer from Crean himself?
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A zillion apologies. Cuonzo has CRUSHED Wojo!
I'm sure Cal fans are as thrilled about that 11-point loss to Hawaii and its many future NBA stars as we all are thrilled about Wojo's 19-point humiliation at the hands of Ja Morant.
In hindsight, I guess we would have been better off seeing Cuonzo starting to build something at Marquette only to bolt after 3 years when the Mizzou job opened up.
Cal's $$ issues and administrative issues over the years are also well documented. Because he left Cal for Mizzou, doesn't mean he would have left Marquette had he been hired. And of course no one knew when that job would open up, and, if there would be interest in Cuonzo.
But some coaches using the Big East as a stepping stone. And, will be a fact of life sometimes, as others stay. Chris Holtmann, Chris Mack, etc...in recent years.
The point is comparing the two was apples to oranges based on different amounts of time. Also Martin has accomplished more at different schools thus far than Wojo.
Maybe this is the year for Wojo.
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Cal's $$ issues and administrative issues over the years are also well documented. Because he left Cal for Mizzou, doesn't mean he would have left Marquette had he been hired. And of course no one knew when that job would open up, and, if there would be interest in Cuonzo.
But some coaches using the Big East as a stepping stone is, and will be a fact of life sometimes, as others stay. Chris Holtmann, Chris Mack, etc...in recent years.
The point is comparing the two was apples to oranges based on different amounts of time. Also Martin has accomplished more at different schools thus far than Wojo.
Maybe this is the year for Wojo.
As brew said, it's a silly, meaningless debate that was only started (or I should say re-started, for about the 1,000th time) with a snarky question asked by one of our fellow Scoopers.
But sure, we can have some fun on a cold December morn ...
Has Cuonzo really accomplished more as a college basketball coach since the start of the 2014-15 season than Wojo has?
I'd say yes ... for his bank account. Cuonzo's estimated annual salary of $3M is roughly 50% higher than Wojo's estimated annual take.
Otherwise, in the first 6 years of that span, each went to two NCAA tournaments (losing in the first round each time), each went to one NIT (with Cuonzo losing in the first round and Wojo losing in the third - hang an effen banner for Wojo), and while Wojo's team was projected to receive another NCAA invitation in 2020, Cuonzo's went 15-16.
Maybe Year 7 will actually be the season Cuonzo accomplishes something that Wojo hasn't since 2014-15. (Other than that No. 4 seed that brewski correctly pointed out, of course.) We'll see!
There are all kinds of valid reasons to criticize Wojo; failing to live up to vagabond Cuonzo Martin's lofty standards would not appear to be one of those reasons. Not yet, anyway.
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As brew said, it's a silly, meaningless debate that was only started (or I should say re-started, for about the 1,000th time) with a snarky question asked by one of our fellow Scoopers.
But sure, we can have some fun on a cold December morn ...
Has Cuonzo really accomplished more as a college basketball coach since the start of the 2014-15 season than Wojo has?
I'd say yes ... for his bank account. Cuonzo's estimated annual salary of $3M is roughly 50% higher than Wojo's estimated annual take.
Otherwise, in the first 6 years of that span, each went to two NCAA tournaments (losing in the first round each time), each went to one NIT (with Cuonzo losing in the first round and Wojo losing in the third - hang an effen banner for Wojo), and while Wojo's team was projected to receive another NCAA invitation in 2020, Cuonzo's went 15-16.
Maybe Year 7 will actually be the season Cuonzo accomplishes something that Wojo hasn't since 2014-15. (Other than that No. 4 seed that brewski correctly pointed out, of course.) We'll see!
There are all kinds of valid reasons to criticize Wojo; failing to live up to vagabond Cuonzo Martin's lofty standards would not appear to be one of those reasons. Not yet, anyway.
Did Counzo Martin and Wojo inherit the same situations? Not even close.
2011 Missouri Valley Coach of the Year.
He inherited Bruce Pearl's indescretions and a suffered a whole lot of booster racism at Tennesee. We can discuss some pretty wild stories if you like. Where is Wojo's Sweet 16? Cuonzo had one in year three at Tennessee.
Who leaves a Sweet 16 in year three at a power 5 school? One that gets dramatically reduced budgets and canceled charter flights etc...in addition to the racism.
Where did Wojo inherit a program that won 8, 10, and 9 games total that was going through NCAA violations like Martin did at Mizzou? ...
It isn't apples to apples, no matter how hard you try to make it apples to apples. And even in more difficult circumstances at multiple places, Martin has done better than Wojo to this point. Maybe this will finally be the year Wojo makes that NCAA 2nd weekend.
Again, Marquette needs to look at the Villanova's of the world and say how can we do this? Or anything close to it.
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As brew said, it's a silly, meaningless debate that was only started (or I should say re-started, for about the 1,000th time) with a snarky question asked by one of our fellow Scoopers.
But sure, we can have some fun on a cold December morn ...
Has Cuonzo really accomplished more as a college basketball coach since the start of the 2014-15 season than Wojo has?
I'd say yes ... for his bank account. Cuonzo's estimated annual salary of $3M is roughly 50% higher than Wojo's estimated annual take.
Otherwise, in the first 6 years of that span, each went to two NCAA tournaments (losing in the first round each time), each went to one NIT (with Cuonzo losing in the first round and Wojo losing in the third - hang an effen banner for Wojo), and while Wojo's team was projected to receive another NCAA invitation in 2020, Cuonzo's went 15-16.
Maybe Year 7 will actually be the season Cuonzo accomplishes something that Wojo hasn't since 2014-15. (Other than that No. 4 seed that brewski correctly pointed out, of course.) We'll see!
There are all kinds of valid reasons to criticize Wojo; failing to live up to vagabond Cuonzo Martin's lofty standards would not appear to be one of those reasons. Not yet, anyway.
I guess you can call it a snarky question by me to a poster who has brought up every loss by them over the past seasons as a comparison to Wojo. Two statistics stand out through their rebuilds: #4 and #29 on Defense.
Now, will they lose more games? Yes. Were either a good fit with MU's administration and program vision? No. But are they valid comparisons on their roads to a rebuild? I will go with the poster here who started the comparison.
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I guess you can call it a snarky question by me to a poster who has brought up every loss by them over the past seasons as a comparison to Wojo. Two statistics stand out through their rebuilds: #4 and #29 on Defense.
Now, will they lose more games? Yes. Were either a good fit with MU's administration and program vision? No. But are they valid comparisons on their roads to a rebuild? I will go with the poster here who started the comparison.
I loves me some hyperbole, too, Doc. It can be a fun writing mechanism. For example, claiming a fellow Scooper brings up Shaka and/or Cuonzo after "every loss by them over the past seasons as a comparison to Wojo." Well done.
Ironically, I didn't bring them up in this thread at all but now get to have fun conversations about them again!
Did Counzo Martin and Wojo inherit the same situations? Not even close.
2011 Missouri Valley Coach of the Year.
He inherited Bruce Pearl's indescretions and a suffered a whole lot of booster racism at Tennesee. We can discuss some pretty wild stories if you like. Where is Wojo's Sweet 16? Cuonzo had one in year three at Tennessee.
Who leaves a Sweet 16 in year three at a power 5 school? One that gets dramatically reduced budgets and canceled charter flights etc...in addition to the racism.
Where did Wojo inherit a program that won 8, 10, and 9 games total that was going through NCAA violations like Martin did at Mizzou? ...
It isn't apples to apples, no matter how hard you try to make it apples to apples. And even in more difficult circumstances at multiple places, Martin has done better than Wojo to this point. Maybe this will finally be the year Wojo makes that NCAA 2nd weekend.
Again, Marquette needs to look at the Villanova's of the world and say how can we do this? Or anything close to it.
OK. You get the final word on this. Have a nice weekend.