MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: jesmu84 on April 16, 2020, 03:09:19 PM
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Hopefully I'm not the only one who didn't know the details behind this new situation. But between the guaranteed money, full-ride college scholarship, dedicated training and other education, this is going to completely change the landscape of college bball for the upper echelon recruits and blue blood recruiting and then of course the downstream effects to other teams.
Green and now Isaiah Todd (former Michigan commit) aren't actually going to be playing in the G League as we know it. Details below:
https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/2304118/top-3-recruit-jalen-green-became-the-first-person-ever-to-skip-college-and-go-right-to-the-g-league-thanks-to-their-new-select-program
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I wonder if this affects Mane's thinking.
It may even be more of a factor for Mane - Green is probably taking a pay cut over what he could have earned if he committed to Memphis.
Seriously, I expect we will see a lot more of this in the next two years. Guys coming out of HS won't have to go the foreign route for a year before being eligible for the draft.
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I posted this in the Recruiting Thread, but I just don't see how the NBA/G-League paying these kids all this money makes sense for them. Great for the kids, but I don't understand how this is sustainable for the NBA/G-League. Colleges are already willing to do the development work and give the kids exposure for free. I could understand paying them $125,000 to play in the G-League. But $500,000 and putting together this entire Academy Team? How does that make sense?
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I posted this in the Recruiting Thread, but I just don't see how the NBA/G-League paying these kids all this money makes sense for them. Great for the kids, but I don't understand how this is sustainable for the NBA/G-League. Colleges are already willing to do the development work and give the kids exposure for free. I could understand paying them $125,000 to play in the G-League. But $500,000 and putting together this entire Academy Team? How does that make sense?
Maybe NBA believes that with more control over development/evaluation of these elite recruits will give them better understanding/ability to draft with more success?
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Maybe NBA believes that with more control over development/evaluation of these elite recruits will give them better understanding/ability to draft with more success?
Yeah I imagine playing against grown men / other former college all-stars who barely missed the NBA cut could prep them better than the college game. Might be something to be said that big time college games can bring the prime time atmosphere & pressure that G-league can't really reproduce/match though. Ultimately I think giving the HS kids options is best
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I posted this in the Recruiting Thread, but I just don't see how the NBA/G-League paying these kids all this money makes sense for them. Great for the kids, but I don't understand how this is sustainable for the NBA/G-League. Colleges are already willing to do the development work and give the kids exposure for free. I could understand paying them $125,000 to play in the G-League. But $500,000 and putting together this entire Academy Team? How does that make sense?
$500k is nothing compared to what they pay a rookie and relative to what they pay each year for talent, it is next to nothing
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I read a few of the articles and they mention that Nike sponsors the G-League. So while they don't explicitly say it, I wonder if the $500,000 is primarily paid by Nike and basically gives Nike a 1 year endorsement deal with the player. I suppose it would give Nike a big advantage to sign the player when they get to the NBA and might be worth it for them.
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$500k is nothing compared to what they pay a rookie and relative to what they pay each year for talent, it is next to nothing
But they're paying those players to actually play in NBA games, in front of paying fans and on TV. They're paying these kids to work out and play in a few exhibition games. And then they have to pay the rest of the costs with this entire Select Team as well, in addition to the college scholarship.
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$500k is nothing compared to what they pay a rookie and relative to what they pay each year for talent, it is next to nothing
But why pay it at all? It's basically an NBA minimum contract yeah, but what exactly are they trying to accomplish since they are going to be a lottery pick the next year anyway?
The only way these types of deals make sense is if the NBA would allow teams to draft high school players and stash them on the G-League team for a year before they became eligible to play in the NBA.
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This is just a temporary situation.
NBA wants to be able to draft HS players by 2022.
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I highly recommend this Woj pod with Givony of Draft Express, as it answers a lot of the questions brought up here, and they even mention Karim Mane as a "target": http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=29044775 (http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=29044775)
If you want the tl;dr version, Silver/the NBA saw all these top prospects going to the NBL as a wakeup call that there was a market inefficiency. Tried last season but didn't catch on. Got together with owners to increase pool of money dedicated to it and got a little lucky thanks to COVID-19 uncertainties.
It's not the G-League they are going to, but rather an NBA training academy that will sometimes compete against G-League opponents, similar to academies the NBA runs across the world.
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If I had a top prospect, I’d prefer they went to the G-League. The college game is short on development and long on overpaid coaches
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This is just a temporary situation.
NBA wants to be able to draft HS players by 2022.
^ This must just be a set-up for a new CBA.
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If I had a top prospect, I’d prefer they went to the G-League. The college game is short on development and long on overpaid coaches
This is true.
Also, NCAA coaches don't care about long-term development, especially for a kid they know is one and done. They care about winning ... which is completely reasonable, given that's what they're paid for, but putting a kid in the best position for the team to win and putting a kid in the best position to develop him long term aren't always the same.
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Parrish and Norlander did a good podcast on this. Basically their point was that Green is viewed as a consensus top 2 draft pick at this point. If he drops even to 3 overall because of this decision, even with the $500K he is getting now, he will end up losing a lot of money as the drop from the 2nd overall pick to the 3rd overall pick over the course of a rookie contract is much more than $500K. And it'll be much easier for him to drop with this deal than it would've been had he gone to college (older, more physically developed players might expose some holes in his game that college kids might not, or some college kid blows up like an Obi Toppin did and simply passes by him).
They also made the point that you just aren't going to get the hype and publicity that a Zion Williamson did by going to Duke and being on ESPN every night, even if your highlights from the 20 exhibition games you play end up on ESPN's top 10. This will hurt endorsement opportunities at the start of their careers.
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Agreed with the last paragraph completely.
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Parrish and Norlander did a good podcast on this. Basically their point was that Green is viewed as a consensus top 2 draft pick at this point. If he drops even to 3 overall because of this decision, even with the $500K he is getting now, he will end up losing a lot of money as the drop from the 2nd overall pick to the 3rd overall pick over the course of a rookie contract is much more than $500K. And it'll be much easier for him to drop with this deal than it would've been had he gone to college (older, more physically developed players might expose some holes in his game that college kids might not, or some college kid blows up like an Obi Toppin did and simply passes by him).
They also made the point that you just aren't going to get the hype and publicity that a Zion Williamson did by going to Duke and being on ESPN every night, even if your highlights from the 20 exhibition games you play end up on ESPN's top 10. This will hurt endorsement opportunities at the start of their careers.
I'll be honest, this sort of decision baffles me. I guess if you really hate school and just don't want to go to class, I understand that logic, but the ability to build a brand, develop a fanbase, gain exposure to mainstream fans, and be treated like a star is much higher at the collegiate level.
No one watches these games. They don't draw fans. It's more likely you will hurt than help your draft stock. And instead of flying private to top notch venues, you'll be taking a bus to backwater towns. I don't see any way this is sustainable long term.
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But why pay it at all? It's basically an NBA minimum contract yeah, but what exactly are they trying to accomplish since they are going to be a lottery pick the next year anyway?
The only way these types of deals make sense is if the NBA would allow teams to draft high school players and stash them on the G-League team for a year before they became eligible to play in the NBA.
Oh ok i guess i thought that that was what was happening $500k n the rights
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Source: The NBA G-League is heavily eying Top-10 junior Michael Foster Jr. to join their new program spearheaded by Jalen Green. He will definately consider it and have it as an option.
‘He’s still focused on college’ the source told @stockrisers. Many colleges still in the mix.
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I'll be honest, this sort of decision baffles me. I guess if you really hate school and just don't want to go to class, I understand that logic, but the ability to build a brand, develop a fanbase, gain exposure to mainstream fans, and be treated like a star is much higher at the collegiate level.
No one watches these games. They don't draw fans. It's more likely you will hurt than help your draft stock. And instead of flying private to top notch venues, you'll be taking a bus to backwater towns. I don't see any way this is sustainable long term.
It may not be sustainable, but you're way overvaluing college, in terms of development, exposure to scouts and building a brand. College isn't a requisite for any of those things.
I mean, look at some of the likely lottery picks in the 2020 draft:
Anthony Edwards barely played in college, and when he did it was at a largely unsuccessful program that got little exposure.
Obi Toppen played at a mid-major that rarely appeared on national television (a combined 5 appearances on ESPN/ESPN2 ... a few more on CBS Sports and NBSN)
James Wiseman played three games in college.
LaMelo Ball played overseas
Deni Avdija played overseas
Theo Maledon played overseas
Killian Hayes played overseas
RJ Hampton played overseas
Kids are wising up to the NCAA.
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It may not be sustainable, but you're way overvaluing college, in terms of development, exposure to scouts and building a brand. College isn't a requisite for any of those things.
I mean, look at some of the likely lottery picks in the 2020 draft:
Anthony Edwards barely played in college, and when he did it was at a largely unsuccessful program that got little exposure.
Obi Toppen played at a mid-major that rarely appeared on national television (a combined 5 appearances on ESPN/ESPN2 ... a few more on CBS Sports and NBSN)
James Wiseman played three games in college.
LaMelo Ball played overseas
Deni Avdija played overseas
Theo Maledon played overseas
Killian Hayes played overseas
RJ Hampton played overseas
Kids are wising up to the NCAA.
Edwards played a ton. Otherwise your point is spot on.
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It may not be sustainable, but you're way overvaluing college, in terms of development, exposure to scouts and building a brand. College isn't a requisite for any of those things.
There isn't a Marquette game I go to where I don't see Miami Dwyane Wade jerseys. The Heat are the second team of damn near every Marquette fan because of first Wade and now Jimmy and Jae.
Was Zion big in high school? Sure. But he was huge after a year at Duke that started with most people thinking he was the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. He tangibly built his brand that year.
This year is a poor example because of no tournament, but none of the guys you listed overseas will have any marketing base that is as substantial as what Ja Morant or Jarrett Culver or Rui Hachimura started with. That doesn't just help the player, it helps the team because there are people beyond their built-in fanbase that will buy jerseys and watch their games.
Basketball players can become recognizable stars in college. You can't do that in the G League, playing in front of 1,200 people in Maine with your profile pieces being written up in OSQ.
Not only that, but these kids are going to get mauled in the G League. In college, they get plenty of games against weak competition. The guys that play major minutes in the G League, every one is a grown man that would be one of the best players on any college team in the country. That is more likely to sink their draft stock than averaging monster numbers against college opposition, and the drop from 2nd to 7th is way more than $500,000.
The unintended consequences of this will be significant.
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I don’t see fans gravitating to watch the G League.
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Just to repeat, he’s not even playing in the G-League. It’s just a developmental program that will play some exhibition games against G-League teams.
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It may not be sustainable, but you're way overvaluing college, in terms of development, exposure to scouts and building a brand. College isn't a requisite for any of those things.
I mean, look at some of the likely lottery picks in the 2020 draft:
Anthony Edwards barely played in college, and when he did it was at a largely unsuccessful program that got little exposure.
Obi Toppen played at a mid-major that rarely appeared on national television (a combined 5 appearances on ESPN/ESPN2 ... a few more on CBS Sports and NBSN)
James Wiseman played three games in college.
LaMelo Ball played overseas
Deni Avdija played overseas
Theo Maledon played overseas
Killian Hayes played overseas
RJ Hampton played overseas
Kids are wising up to the NCAA.
The only person who actually HELPED their stock on this list by going overseas was LaMelo Ball.
If Obi Toppin was playing in the G League nobody outside of NBA Scouts would've ever heard his name yet. The guy absolutely blew up BECAUSE he played at a mid major and turned them into a national title contender.
Edwards and Wiseman were supposed to compete for the top spot in the Draft. Wiseman isn't even in that conversation anymore because he dropped off the radar. That cost him millions, while Edwards stayed at the top of the Draft board even playing for a no good Georgia team.
RJ Hampton was a top 5 recruit (doesn't necessarily mean he'd be a top 5 pick, don't know where he was being projected but I'd assume it would've been top 10 going into the past basketball season). He's now being projected in the mid first round.
The rest of the guys were already international players.
Look at guys like Isaac Okoro who was a 4 star and is now a projected top 5 pick or Tyrese Haliburton who was outside of the top 100 2 years ago and is now a projected top 10 pick.
There are kids who go to college and hurt their draft stock, and there are kids who go to college and blow up. There are very rarely kids who go overseas and blow up.
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Not only that, but these kids are going to get mauled in the G League. In college, they get plenty of games against weak competition. The guys that play major minutes in the G League, every one is a grown man that would be one of the best players on any college team in the country. That is more likely to sink their draft stock than averaging monster numbers against college opposition, and the drop from 2nd to 7th is way more than $500,000.
The unintended consequences of this will be significant.
I imagine NBA scouts are going to be able to figure out there's a difference between scouting an 18-year-old competing against men in the G League compared with Portland State and Colgate, and they'll adjust accordingly.
In fact, they already can and do this when they scout kids in Europe. That's why Kristaps Porzingis goes #4 overall after averaging just 10 and 4 in Spain or Dario Saric is a lottery pick after averaging 10.7 and 5.8 in Turkey.
NBA teams will be far more impressed with a would-be freshman that can earn real minutes in the G League than one that averages 15 ppg in the Big 10.
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The rare Laker's G League game I tune into has less fans than most HS games. When I don't recognize anybody i usually lose interest quickly watching a game played in a gym. These young players will lose an opportunity to build a brand and loyal fans and ,as was mentioned, risk being overwhelmed by competition they are not prepared to compete with.
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I feel like people posting here didn't read.
Jalen/others aren't actually playing in the G League
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I feel like people posting here didn't read.
Jalen/others aren't actually playing in the G League
Right. They're playing exhibition games against G League teams. Even worse.
Being developed at an academy. They are going to be no namers to most casual basketball fans going into the NBA. Which is their choice.
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Right. They're playing exhibition games against G League teams. Even worse.
Being developed at an academy. They are going to be no namers to most casual basketball fans going into the NBA. Which is their choice.
Why does that matter?
Also, Nike is intricately involved here. I'm sure there's a reason for that.
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Right. They're playing exhibition games against G League teams. Even worse.
Being developed at an academy. They are going to be no namers to most casual basketball fans going into the NBA. Which is their choice.
Did LeBron need college to build a brand? Kobe? Kevin Garnett? Doncic? McGrady? Dwight Howard?
Since when was college basketball needed?
Fact is, in 2020 college basketball is less relevant than ever before in building a brand. High school and junior high kids don't watch college games on ESPN and FOX, they watch highlights of Jalen Warley, Brony James, LaMelo Ball, Emoni Bates and Mikey Williams on social media.
These kids are creating their brands while they're in high school.
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Did LeBron need college to build a brand? Kobe? Kevin Garnett? Doncic? McGrady? Dwight Howard?
Since when was college basketball needed?
Fact is, in 2020 college basketball is less relevant than ever before in building a brand. High school and junior high kids don't watch college games on ESPN and FOX, they watch highlights of Jalen Warley, Brony James, LaMelo Ball, Emoni Bates and Mikey Williams on social media.
These kids are creating their brands while they're in high school.
None of those kids are anywhere near as relevant as Obi Toppin was the past 5 months. Not even close. And prior to those past 5 months nobody even knew who Obi Toppin was.
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I feel like people posting here didn't read.
Jalen/others aren't actually playing in the G League
What is the motivation for the NBA to give several hundred thousand dollars to kids before they get drafted? Is the NBA worried that another league will start poaching players? These high level players look fairly prepared to play following a year in college. I don’t think the top ten draft picks really need NBA trainers for a year before the draft. Every year players look like they are very effective and comfortable on an NBA court without it.
MLB goes out of their way to not pay more than they have to and their minor leaguers are already on teams (which should provide motivation to keep players happy).
I don’t see the the NBAs motivation to give money away unless they are seriously thinking in the long run the G-league and these exhibitions can compete for eyeballs at the level of college basketball.
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What is the motivation for the NBA to give several hundred thousand dollars to kids before they get drafted? Is the NBA worried that another league will start poaching players?
In a word, yes. Parrish & Norlander explained that end of it, basically because of star high school kids like LaMelo Ball & RJ Hampton playing in Australia, the NBA now has to put more money and effort getting their scouts to Australia to see those top players. It's easier and maybe even cheaper to pay those top 5-10 players a few million dollars than to send scouts over a few times a year every year.
This won't be large scale competition with the NCAA because the NBA doesn't really care about players beyond that top-10 and they aren't doing this to grow the G League. It's really just a year long training camp for expected lottery picks. They're banking on that being better for the league & draft process than trying to follow these kids all over the world.
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Thanks Brew. Must be a NBA pool of money from all teams that makes this possible. Did not think that degree of money was needed to scout the top ten or so prospects. I would have thought just the opposite (more time and energy on late first round and second round prospects).
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Thanks Brew. Must be a NBA pool of money from all teams that makes this possible. Did not think that degree of money was needed to scout the top ten or so prospects. I would have thought just the opposite (more time and energy on late first round and second round prospects).
I think it's because to invest that heavily in a top-10 pick, you need to know the guy is worth it. You don't want to draft a LaMelo Ball first overall on YouTube highlights or spend a lottery pick on RJ Hampton because of watching a couple NBL games on TV.
I don't know if it's actually going to be cost effective, but I can see the expense being worth it if simplifies the scouting process. It's a lot easier to scout guys in America than anywhere else. That ease alone may be worth it for NBA teams.
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I can totally see why the NBA is doing this, and I definitely see why it's an attractive option to current HS seniors - especially those who have absolutely no interest in pretending to be a college student.
It will be interesting to see how this develops over time. Some kids will still want the college experience, even if it will end 10 minutes after their team's final game their freshman year. But some kids will say, "Screw that. Give me the dough and the endorsements. I'm a pro."
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Gary Parrish
@GaryParrishCBS
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Five-star point guard Daishen Nix is skipping college to join the same G League program Jalen Green and Isaiah Todd are joining. He was committed to UCLA.
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You can't get suspended from the G League program if someone buys you a sandwich, so that's a plus.
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And they can sign shoe deals.
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In a word, yes. Parrish & Norlander explained that end of it, basically because of star high school kids like LaMelo Ball & RJ Hampton playing in Australia, the NBA now has to put more money and effort getting their scouts to Australia to see those top players. It's easier and maybe even cheaper to pay those top 5-10 players a few million dollars than to send scouts over a few times a year every year.
This won't be large scale competition with the NCAA because the NBA doesn't really care about players beyond that top-10 and they aren't doing this to grow the G League. It's really just a year long training camp for expected lottery picks. They're banking on that being better for the league & draft process than trying to follow these kids all over the world.
And, it’s just a short term measure until the NBA and the NBPA agree on age limit for the draft.
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Gary Parrish
@GaryParrishCBS
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Five-star point guard Daishen Nix is skipping college to join the same G League program Jalen Green and Isaiah Todd are joining. He was committed to UCLA.
We were one of his finalists if I recall correctly. Guess we got saved some heartache
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Cronin needs to learn when to cut his losses. Shouldn't have invested so many resources into the kid.
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Good for these kids.
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I wonder about small letter clauses in these contracts. Hope they retained decent lawyers / accountant or management firm that can do all. My guess is after expenses / taxes they end up with a net of 150k. Much better than college, but I hope they know how much they're getting.
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Go after 4 star kids of this is the trend.
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Good for these kids.
Absolutely, a career in basketball is honorable. Many opportunities and not only in the NBA. College is not for everyone. If these guys get good representation and people steer them in the right direction it will be beneficial for those who are not academically inclined.
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Absolutely, a career in basketball is honorable. Many opportunities and not only in the NBA. College is not for everyone. If these guys get good representation and people steer them in the right direction it will be beneficial for those who are not academically inclined.
And, it’s not necessarily just for those who don’t want to go to school. Either way, guys do take risks entering the alternate program.
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We were one of his finalists if I recall correctly. Guess we got saved some heartache
I'll be honest, in retrospect I'm glad he didn't pick Marquette.
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We were one of his finalists if I recall correctly. Guess we got saved some heartache
We were not in his final 5 according to 247
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I wonder about small letter clauses in these contracts. Hope they retained decent lawyers / accountant or management firm that can do all. My guess is after expenses / taxes they end up with a net of 150k. Much better than college, but I hope they know how much they're getting.
I don’t know. LSU pays straight cash, and I doubt they’re alone.
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Cronin needs to learn when to cut his losses. Shouldn't have invested so many resources into the kid.
Well done. I chuckled.
Oh ... and teal was totally unnecessary!
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I don’t know. LSU pays straight cash, and I doubt they’re alone.
;D
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I don’t know. LSU pays straight cash, and I doubt they’re alone.
#strongassoffer
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#strongassoffer
I read this as "strong gas offer."
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Gary Parrish
@GaryParrishCBS
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Five-star point guard Daishen Nix is skipping college to join the same G League program Jalen Green and Isaiah Todd are joining. He was committed to UCLA.
I guess UCLA got Nixed.
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I'll be honest, this sort of decision baffles me. I guess if you really hate school and just don't want to go to class, I understand that logic, but the ability to build a brand, develop a fanbase, gain exposure to mainstream fans, and be treated like a star is much higher at the collegiate level.
No one watches these games. They don't draw fans. It's more likely you will hurt than help your draft stock. And instead of flying private to top notch venues, you'll be taking a bus to backwater towns. I don't see any way this is sustainable long term.
Agree with you that no one watches these games. It's hard to top the excitement of college basketball. It'll be interesting to see how long the "NBA" minor league lasts.
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I think we have all just learned how much at least one shoe company is willing to pay a top player. Now they get to do it in a totally legal and aboveboard manner. This is great for the NCAA AND great for the NBA and in reality is probably just a transition until 18's can get drafted again.
Even before coronavirus, have you seen some of the crap on ESPN lately? I'd much rather watch G league than SEC softball or the turkish tennis classic veterans D tour event. A team that fields 5 of the top 18 year olds in the USA against a national team preparing for the Olympics? Hell yeah, I'd watch that!
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I read this as "strong gas offer."
"I'll pay you $37/barrel to take this off my hands"
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Jonathan Kuminga, No. 1 recruit of 2021, reclassifies to 2020 and takes G-League $$$
https://theathletic.com/1931656/2020/07/15/top-2021-high-school-prospect-jonathan-kuminga-explains-his-g-league-decision/?source=dailyemail
It's behind a paywall, but here's a few paragraphs to give the overall gist ...
Kuminga recently graduated early from The Patrick High School in Hillside, N.J., and is now a potential No. 1 overall pick candidate for the 2021 NBA Draft. His deal in the G League will be worth approximately $500,000.
“I don’t see myself as a high school player again,” Kuminga said. “The G League will help me more than how college was going to help me on being the player I want to be right now, and going pro. They’re going to help me on everything; my skills and developing my body.”
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I would too. No guarantee there's gonna be a college season and only more likely that he's facing top talent that's essentially now redshirted a year in college.
Someone remind me though, the GLeague program these young players are going to doesn't actually play games right? It essentially coddles them for a year because they believe they'll make it as pros?
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I would too. No guarantee there's gonna be a college season and only more likely that he's facing top talent that's essentially now redshirted a year in college.
Someone remind me though, the GLeague program these young players are going to doesn't actually play games right? It essentially coddles them for a year because they believe they'll make it as pros?
As I understand it, the young guys will all be put on the same team, based in Los Angeles, possibly in Kobe's facility. Kuminga is the fifth addition to the roster.
In addition to the young guys, the Select team will bring in a few veteran players to play alongside of and "mentor" them. Might be a first step for those guys into coaching.
Former NBA player and coach, Brian Shaw, will be the Select Team's head coach. It sounds like they also will bring in a few others with pro playing and coaching experience. Sam Mitchell has been mentioned.
I haven't seen a schedule, but it sounded like they plan to play about 10 games against G-League teams.
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I wonder about small letter clauses in these contracts. Hope they retained decent lawyers / accountant or management firm that can do all. My guess is after expenses / taxes they end up with a net of 150k. Much better than college, but I hope they know how much they're getting.
You missed the part of a full ride scholarship to anywhere they can get into if and when they decide to go.
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I don’t know. LSU pays straight cash, and I doubt they’re alone.
Under the table cash is tax free. Makes paying taxes on NBA salaries a shock.
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"I'll pay you $37/barrel to take this off my hands"
Thats oil u mope
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I think this is good for college basketball. Create some stability if there are less one and dones. For every Zion who captures the country, there's a dozen Anthony Edwards, Henry Ellensons, Deandre Ayton, Markelle Fultz who don't make a dent nationally and only serve to stall their team's progress.
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There sure are a lot of #1 ranked players.
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I think this is good for college basketball. Create some stability if there are less one and dones. For every Zion who captures the country, there's a dozen Anthony Edwards, Henry Ellensons, Deandre Ayton, Markelle Fultz who don't make a dent nationally and only serve to stall their team's progress.
I agree with this analysis.