MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 5DollarPitcher on February 25, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
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>.500 record at current school
>100 games coached at current school
Between 1 and 3 NCAA Tournament appearances (inclusive)
Zero Sweet Sixteen (or further) appearances
If Wojo's results are all we should ever expect (without being entitled), which of these coaches/programs are we aspiring to be?
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Scoop's peer group:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/0/0b/Winnie-the-pooh-disneyscreencaps.com-5931.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170928110809)
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If your spreadsheet is accurate, that’s an ugly list.
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The great Pat Chambers made the list!
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Scoop's peer group:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/0/0b/Winnie-the-pooh-disneyscreencaps.com-5931.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170928110809)
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114-78 is below .500? I hope you didn't get your mathematics education at Marquette.
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114-78 is below .500? I hope you didn't get your mathematics education at Marquette.
The criterion is GREATER THAN .500 as indicated by “>.500”.
I hope you didn’t get your mathematics degree from Marquette.
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What is the purpose of this wojo sucks garbage all day every day? Like a broken record. Weren't saying shi t when we were 7-4. Teams go on skids. Win the next two and ranked once again in good position and all the whiners disappear. I mean what is this? I get the play has been awful the last two games but teams go on skids. At this point in the season isn't rational to say" yes they're on a skid but let's wait out the rest of the year and see what happens" before we freak out and spew wojo sucks. The team sucks. The athetlic department sucks. The fans love mediocrity bs like theres no tommor? Or f uck it we could just post about how crape things are all day on here if it helps
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114-78 is below .500? I hope you didn't get your mathematics education at Marquette.
Thats an ooooooof partner
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>.500 record at current school
>100 games coached at current school
Between 1 and 3 NCAA Tournament appearances (inclusive)
Zero Sweet Sixteen (or further) appearances
If Wojo's results are all we should ever expect (without being entitled), which of these coaches/programs are we aspiring to be?
The question you ask at the end does not match the data you provide. Aspiring to be implies future results, not current ones. The more accurate measure would be to look at coaches whose first five years featured the criteria you listed.
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114-78 is below .500? I hope you didn't get your mathematics education at Marquette.
::)
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The criterion is GREATER THAN .500 as indicated by “>.500”.
I hope you didn’t get your mathematics degree from Marquette.
;D
Well played.
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The question you ask at the end does not match the data you provide. Aspiring to be implies future results, not current ones. The more accurate measure would be to look at coaches whose first five years featured the criteria you listed.
But that doesn't fit the narrative that Wojo sucks.
And what the hell, DePaul didn't make the list?!?!?!
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>.500 record at current school
>100 games coached at current school
Between 1 and 3 NCAA Tournament appearances (inclusive)
Zero Sweet Sixteen (or further) appearances
If Wojo's results are all we should ever expect (without being entitled), which of these coaches/programs are we aspiring to be?
Interesting criteria for selecting a peer group. I noticed that certain coaches weren’t in the list.
Josh Pastner - Coached at Georgia tech for >100 games. Not include because he is <.500. Has a much longer coaching career but also has NCAA violations.
Danny Manning - Head coach at Wake Forest. Coached there for >100. Not included because he is <.500
Patrick Ewing - just under 100 at 88 barely over .500 and 0 NCAA appearances.
Greg McDermott - Long time head coach. Has not made it passed the round of 32 in 25yrs as a head coach. Only not on the list because it his 11years at Creighton made the NCAA 6 times.
Shaka Smart has >100 at Texas. Just barely .500. No sweet sixteen appearances. Not on the list because you conveniently included his VCU.
Chris Collins - sub .500 so not on the list
Brad Underwood - 92 games, sub<.500 no NCAA, no sweet sixteen
Cuonzo Martin - 92 games at Missouri. not .500 and only one NCAA tournament. Including California over .500 no NCAA wins. Have to go all the way back to Tennessee to see sweet sixteen and why he wasn’t included in your list which is his only NCAA wins in 12 yrs as head coach.
Dan Hurley - 10 seasons head coach. Two NCAA tournaments. Only two years at UConn but no NCAA appearances
Bobby Hurley - meets the criteria. Not on list. 7 years as head coach.
Greg Gard - walked in two good years has done nothing since. Did his teams get the sweet sixteen or did Bo’s
Kevin Willard - 4 NCAA appearances in 10 years eliminates him from Wojo’s peer group. No sweet sixteen.
Fran McCaffery - 4 NCAA appearances in 10 years. No sweet 16. Had 14years of prior head coaching experience. Not on the list because he had 4 appears.
Ed Cooley- made 4 NCAAs but not sweet 16s at Providence while there 10yrs. Has 5 years previous coaching experience.
All of these coaches were eliminated as peers because of some arbitrary measure. I was just pulling random coaches and I don’t think their resumes at their current schools beat Wojo’s by much of at all.
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IMO not a great list to be on, hopefully he can improve
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I will add others.
Brian Wardle as some have mentioned him for the position >100 sub .500. Only 1 NCAA appearance.
Mike Hopkins -washington 97 games. No sweet sixteen. Good first two years horrible third year.
Jamie Dixon - >100 games with current team. 1 tournament with no sweet sixteen. Last passed sweet sixteen in 2009. 17years head coaching experience
Ben Howland - >100games at current school. One NCAA appearance. No sweet 16s. Last relevancy was UCLA and has 24 years head coaching experience. His current run doesn’t live up to his early days.
Frank Haith - Not on your list because he made 4 nCAAs in 16year career.
Your list is meaningless.
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Well done, Ball Boy.
Anybody can come up with a list to make any coach of their choosing look good or bad in comparison.
For example ...
Of Jay Wright, Mike Krzyzewski, Lute Olson, Jim Calhoun, Dana Altman, Kelvin Sampson, Eddie Sutton, John Beilein, Mike Montgomery and Steve Wojciechowski, only Wojciechowski reached the NCAA tournament twice in his first five seasons as a D1 head coach.
That's some peer group, and Wojo's at the head of it!
(Before Nojos start screaming that Wojo hasn't earned the right to be listed with those guys, and those guys have more than made up for relatively slow starts, and many of those guys started when conferences received only one bid, and Wojo is at a bigger school than most of those other guys, and yada yada yada ... I get it. I was just demonstrating how anybody can make up a "peer group" to fit one's narrative.)
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I will add others.
Brian Wardle as some have mentioned him for the position >100 sub .500. Only 1 NCAA appearance.
Mike Hopkins -washington 97 games. No sweet sixteen. Good first two years horrible third year.
Jamie Dixon - >100 games with current team. 1 tournament with no sweet sixteen. Last passed sweet sixteen in 2009. 17years head coaching experience
Ben Howland - >100games at current school. One NCAA appearance. No sweet 16s. Last relevancy was UCLA and has 24 years head coaching experience. His current run doesn’t live up to his early days.
Frank Haith - Not on your list because he made 4 nCAAs in 16year career.
Your list is meaningless.
I'm confused as to the point you're making. Are you saying adding these coaches, who barely missed based on the criteria, would be somehow better for Wojo? It would still be an embarrassing list.
The idea wasn't to name every bad coach in the NCAA; it was to come up with a list of coaches whose resume lines up with Wojo's at Marquette. So far the high major coaches that align with him are Rich Pitino and Pat Chambers... Big yikes.
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Well done, Ball Boy.
Anybody can come up with a list to make any coach of their choosing look good or bad in comparison.
For example ...
Of Jay Wright, Mike Krzyzewski, Lute Olson, Jim Calhoun, Dana Altman, Kelvin Sampson, Eddie Sutton, John Beilein, Mike Montgomery and Steve Wojciechowski, only Wojciechowski reached the NCAA tournament twice in his first five seasons as a D1 head coach.
That's some peer group, and Wojo's at the head of it!
(Before Nojos start screaming that Wojo hasn't earned the right to be listed with those guys, and those guys have more than made up for relatively slow starts, and many of those guys started when conferences received only one bid, and Wojo is at a bigger school than most of those other guys, and yada yada yada ... I get it. I was just demonstrating how anybody can make up a "peer group" to fit one's narrative.)
I think the greater than 100 games with their current university criteria is the important thing to note. These are coaches who are committed/tied to their respective universities. Most of the guys you named would be eliminated from this list based on that criteria. And when they did show up again at their new universities (i.e. Wright at Nova), they'd be eliminated due to the "success" criteria (i.e. more NCAA bids, Sweet Sixteen).
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I think the greater than 100 games with their current university criteria is the important thing to note. These are coaches who are committed/tied to their respective universities. Most of the guys you named would be eliminated from this list based on that criteria. And when they did show up again at their new universities (i.e. Wright at Nova), they'd be eliminated due to the "success" criteria (i.e. more NCAA bids, Sweet Sixteen).
Cool. My point was that most anybody can come up with a "peer group" if they want to tear down or build up a coach, player, politician, businessman, etc.
We all want Marquette to win more.
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Seriously, this is the most arbitrary set of filters ever. Pass, not worth my time.
(And I realize I spent time reading and replying, whoops)
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Seriously, this is the most arbitrary set of filters ever. Pass, not worth my time.
(And I realize I spent time reading and replying, whoops)
Rocky: i want to be real life friends after your past 2 weeks of posts. Arby's meetup in like Schaumburg?
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I'll add to the list. Anthony Grant of Dayton. You know the team with a 4 beside their name. Eleven seasons as a head coach with a record of 253–141 (.642). Three NCAA tournament appearances with 1 win. How about Colorado's Tad Boyle? You may recognize his team as the one with a 21 besides their name. His Colorado record in 9+ seasons is 210–129 (.618) and only 1 NCAA Tournament win in 4 appearances which came in 2015-16. The three following seasons he's 9 games over .500 total. In case you need a reminder. MU is currently 8 games over .500 this year. Andy Enfield is also putting Wojo to shame with his 2 NCAA appearances and 1 win in the five seasons at USC. But with your criteria the 1 win in March makes him superior to Wojo.
What about coaches who have regressed the six years we had Wojo. Utah's Krystkowski is probably not going to make the tournament this year. In the past 5 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance with 1 win which happened 5 years ago. Maybe we start a support group with their fan base.
Larrañaga of Miami has made a Sweet 16 in the past 5 seasons (doesn't look like he's going to make the tournament this year so I'll add it). But 2 appearances in the 4 seasons since with zero wins probably with consecutive years of missing the tournament probably means his time is limited.
I think you would be happy with Brian Brownwell of Clemson another titan towering over Wojo. Tenth season this year. Two appearances total but did make the Sweet 16 in year 8.
Can we stop this nonsense now? To paraphrase Norman Dale. My coach is on the court.
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I'll add to the list. Anthony Grant of Dayton. You know the team with a 4 beside their name. Eleven seasons as a head coach with a record of 253–141 (.642). Three NCAA tournament appearances with 1 win. How about Colorado's Tad Boyle? You may recognize his team as the one with a 21 besides their name. His Colorado record in 9+ seasons is 210–129 (.618) and only 1 NCAA Tournament win in 4 appearances which came in 2015-16. The three following seasons he's 9 games over .500 total. In case you need a reminder. MU is currently 8 games over .500 this year. Andy Enfield is also putting Wojo to shame with his 2 NCAA appearances and 1 win in the five seasons at USC. But with your criteria the 1 win in March makes him superior to Wojo.
What about coaches who have regressed the six years we had Wojo. Utah's Krystkowski is probably not going to make the tournament this year. In the past 5 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance with 1 win which happened 5 years ago. Maybe we start a support group with their fan base.
Larrañaga of Miami has made a Sweet 16 in the past 5 seasons (doesn't look like he's going to make the tournament this year so I'll add it). But 2 appearances in the 4 seasons since with zero wins probably with consecutive years of missing the tournament probably means his time is limited.
I think you would be happy with Brian Brownwell of Clemson another titan towering over Wojo. Tenth season this year. Two appearances total but did make the Sweet 16 in year 8.
Can we stop this nonsense now? To paraphrase Norman Dale. My coach is on the court.
this guy f*cks
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I'm confused as to the point you're making. Are you saying adding these coaches, who barely missed based on the criteria, would be somehow better for Wojo? It would still be an embarrassing list.
The idea wasn't to name every bad coach in the NCAA; it was to come up with a list of coaches whose resume lines up with Wojo's at Marquette. So far the high major coaches that align with him are Rich Pitino and Pat Chambers... Big yikes.
It is an absolutely meaningless list and has no relevance. It’s a filtered list of 25 names nothing more. Are the coaches on the list good/bad? Can’t tell you. You looked at the list and said well there are only 2 P-5 coaches so it’s proof that Wojo sucks which again has no basis in reality.
I listed a whole bunch of coaches that at some point were the next big thing or are coaches at P-5 schools. In many cases have worse records than Wojo’s record. They are still head coaches in D1 and he is doing better than them. P-5 coaches that aren’t as good as Wojo. yikes. None were on your list.
Some coaches just weren’t on your list because they coached for so long. Not as good of resume as Wojo.
If few number of p-5 coaches on your list give you the yikes let’s see why there aren’t more with just our conference.
Jay wright - Been coaching 20years. Been to more than 4 tournaments. Won a lot too. I would say Wojo is no comparison but he is also a 6 year head coach. He is no Jay Wright but how is he against Jay Wright at 6 years...Wojo’s record in his first 6 years is better than Jay’s in his first 6 years. Does it mean anything...likely not. Comparing someone with 20 years experience isn’t apples to apples though.
Willard - record isn’t that much better than Wojo’s. Willard is in year ten only has one more NCAA appearance. His first 6 years were not as good as Wojo’s but the last years are better. I would consider him a good measuring stick. Will Wojo’s record be better than Willard’s through 10 years? Regardless not in the peer group due to 1 extra appearance in 4 more years of coaching.
Cooley - 15years experience 4 appearances. Worse appearance rate. Nothing to say he is significantly better than Wojo. Not on your list only do to that appearance in 9 years.
Ewing- should easily be in Wojo’s peer group. Similar number of years, conference, school type, etc. not on your list. Why because he is not as good as Wojo and can’t have that.
Leitao - not as good as Wojo so not on your list
Mike Anderson - not on the list because not enough games at current school. In the last 10years his record isn’t much better than Wojo’s even though he is more experienced. His last good run was 12years ago. Seems like the definition of the guy who lost his edge but as been coaching for 18years.
Steele - hasn’t played enough games to count.
Jordan - Not enough games at Butler to count. If we include his previous stops than he would. Only made NCAA 1 in 4 years. Seems like someone who should be in MU’s peer group.
McDermott - 25years coaching. No sweet 16s. Not on your list because he has more than 3 NCAA tournaments but in 25 years. Would Wojo be on your list if he was a coach for 25 years. No.
So just looking at your list we eliminate 5 of the 9 because they have been coaching longer.
2 because they haven’t been coaching long enough
2 because they suck. A whole p-5 conference wiped away without really understanding the quality of the coach relative to the peer group. I mean it makes it easy to then say well there is only 2 p-5 coaches so he must suck but it has no meaning.
Realistically other than Wright are any of the coaches’ resumes that are much better than Wojo’s. I would say duration McDermott has more time on earth. Anderson as well but hasn’t done much in the last decade and he doesn’t look good now.
That would tell me Wojo is in the upper half of the conference and may yet surpass McDermott and Anderson if he coaches for as long.
I wonder what the list would look like if you normalized versus arbitrary numbers.
100 games coached or more in career.
Number of appearances relative to their tenure 4appearances/10year head coach =40%
No NCAA sweet 16 or greater in last 6 years.
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The main problem with the list is that it eliminates coaches who matched the criteria in their first 5 years at their current school (which is what Wojo has had so far) but then improved later in the career. For example, Coach K's first five years at Duke matched 5dollar's arbitrary filters but has obviously made several deep tournament runs since then.
So I guess to answer his original question, MU must aspire to be Duke!
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Amazing Wojo slurpers still defending their guy after 6 years of mediocre performance. But wait, now we must let the rest of the 20s decade play out to truly evaluate if he is just mediocre or downright crummy.
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Amazing Wojo slurpers still defending their guy after 6 years of mediocre performance. But wait, now we must let the rest of the 20s decade play out to truly evaluate if he is just mediocre or downright crummy.
What is your fascination with slurping? You mention it quite a bit. Is there something you want to get off your chest?
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What is your fascination with slurping? You mention it quite a bit. Is there something you want to get off your chest?
Yes would like to get MUs mediocrity off my chest. We should be competing for BEast titles rather than wallowing around each year in the middle of the pack. Wojo was going to be the savior and 6 years later we are slip Sliding away.
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The question you ask at the end does not match the data you provide. Aspiring to be implies future results, not current ones. The more accurate measure would be to look at coaches whose first five years featured the criteria you listed.
100% this.
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I'll add to the list. Anthony Grant of Dayton. You know the team with a 4 beside their name. Eleven seasons as a head coach with a record of 253–141 (.642). Three NCAA tournament appearances with 1 win. How about Colorado's Tad Boyle? You may recognize his team as the one with a 21 besides their name. His Colorado record in 9+ seasons is 210–129 (.618) and only 1 NCAA Tournament win in 4 appearances which came in 2015-16. The three following seasons he's 9 games over .500 total. In case you need a reminder. MU is currently 8 games over .500 this year. Andy Enfield is also putting Wojo to shame with his 2 NCAA appearances and 1 win in the five seasons at USC. But with your criteria the 1 win in March makes him superior to Wojo.
What about coaches who have regressed the six years we had Wojo. Utah's Krystkowski is probably not going to make the tournament this year. In the past 5 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance with 1 win which happened 5 years ago. Maybe we start a support group with their fan base.
Larrañaga of Miami has made a Sweet 16 in the past 5 seasons (doesn't look like he's going to make the tournament this year so I'll add it). But 2 appearances in the 4 seasons since with zero wins probably with consecutive years of missing the tournament probably means his time is limited.
I think you would be happy with Brian Brownwell of Clemson another titan towering over Wojo. Tenth season this year. Two appearances total but did make the Sweet 16 in year 8.
Can we stop this nonsense now? To paraphrase Norman Dale. My coach is on the court.
Welcome back, Whoa!
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I'm sure this will make everyone here happy, but it is amazing how often Greg Gard pops up as a comp for Wojo. For example, below is a list of coaches who meet the following criteria...
Less than 8 years of D1 head coach experience,
More than 10 years of D1 assistant coach experience,
At least 2 NCAA tournament appearances as a head coach,
80th%ile or greater efficiency margin for the last 3 years.
1 Brad Underwood Illinois 2020 m D1 HC
2 Chris Beard Texas Tech 2020 m D1 HC
3 Chris Jans New Mexico State 2020 m D1 HC
4 David Hobbs Iowa State 2020 m D1 SATHC
5 Greg Gard Wisconsin 2020 m D1 HC
6 Steve Robinson North Carolina 2020 m D1 AC
7 Steve Wojciechowski Marquette 2020 m D1 HC
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I wonder what the list would look like if you normalized versus arbitrary numbers.
100 games coached or more in career.
Number of appearances relative to their tenure 4appearances/10year head coach =40%
No NCAA sweet 16 or greater in last 6 years.
I adjusted the list to go off "NCAA Appearance Rate" rather than total appearances. Therefore, Wojo has a 40% rate (2 apps/5 years).
The criteria for the peer group then becomes a 30% to 50% appearance rate with no Sweet Sixteen appearances. The rest of the criteria remained the same. Some notable additions include Kevin Willard, Jamie Dixon, and Tad Boyle. Not sure if this was supposed to be better for Wojo, but I personally don't think it makes it any better. You're just pulling in a couple more high major coaches that have made a long career out of being average or OK.
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I adjusted the list to go off "NCAA Appearance Rate" rather than total appearances. Therefore, Wojo has a 40% rate (2 apps/5 years).
The criteria for the peer group then becomes a 30% to 50% appearance rate with no Sweet Sixteen appearances. The rest of the criteria remained the same. Some notable additions include Kevin Willard, Jamie Dixon, and Tad Boyle. Not sure if this was supposed to be better for Wojo, but I personally don't think it makes it any better. You're just pulling in a couple more high major coaches that have made a long career out of being average or OK.
Pretty sure people would love to get Jamie Dixon. It'd spark memories of Ashton Gibbs, Wanamaker, and McGee owning us in the Big East more so than an average time in the ACC and B12
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And, as a little bonus, see below for the peer group for my expectations for Marquette basketball. There are exactly 27 coaches/programs on this list; which would stand to reason with the ProJo ideology that Wojo has built us into a top 25-30 program.
Criteria:
>.500 winning percentage at current school
>100 games coached at current school
>50% NCAA Tourney appearance rate
> or equal to 1 Sweet Sixteen (most are well above this)
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The origination of this thread should be used in a data analytics course is how bias is built into an "algorithm". You've a set of arbitrary filters and conditions (without equity by the way) and have then created a conclusion based on the output.....more likely is you had a conclusion then determined the filters that generated the correct data outcome but whatever.
TL:DR: (https://media0.giphy.com/media/10RgsuetO4uDkY/giphy.gif)
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Dead horse topic. It’s like politics these days. People have their opinion and few are going to change it regardless of different arguments offered.
Wojo doesn’t suck as a coach, nor is he a good coach. He’s definition of mediocre. Are we a mediocre program?
Some think MKE sucks and coaches don’t want to be here. I disagree. MU and MKE have a lot to sell as compared MOST D1 Basketball locations/“cities.”
Wojo needs to deliver a strong finish. It is absolutely unacceptable for a team as old and experienced as ours, with Markus Howard on it - to accomplish nothing in March.
Looking ahead to next year? Sure as hell don’t see how we take a step forward. Perhaps as TAMU tried to suggest on another thread - we should really just look at Wojo for what he can deliver every 3 years. So. We can expect jack these next two. 👍🏼
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And, as a little bonus, see below for the peer group for my expectations for Marquette basketball. There are exactly 27 coaches/programs on this list; which would stand to reason with the ProJo ideology that Wojo has built us into a top 25-30 program.
Criteria:
>.500 winning percentage at current school
>100 games coached at current school
>50% NCAA Tourney appearance rate
> or equal to 1 Sweet Sixteen (most are well above this)
So if Wojo goes to the S16 he's met your criteria?
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So if Wojo goes to the S16 he's met your criteria?
Technically, yes. Which actually aligns with what I said about Wojo to begin the year in one of the several polls circulating during the offseason. Sweet Sixteen was a minimum for me not to be calling for his head at the end of the year. I still feel that way.
However, I think there is a 0% chance this team is making a Sweet Sixteen run unless we somehow face a 15 seed in round 2.
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Technically, yes. Which actually aligns with what I said about Wojo to begin the year in one of the several polls circulating during the offseason. Sweet Sixteen was a minimum for me not to be calling for his head at the end of the year. I still feel that way.
However, I think there is a 0% chance this team is making a Sweet Sixteen run unless we somehow face a 15 seed in round 2.
In one post you say technically yes and in the first you said that's your expectations. There's no technicality about it, you've either been over reacting all season during an open ended season where he could hit your expectations by year end or those aren't your expectations.
To your second paragraph I invite you rewatch the 2011 season. You might've been a bit young to appreciate just how bad it was.
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So if Wojo goes to the S16 he's met your criteria?
Also note that if I change Sweet Sixteen from an absolute number to a rate, similar to the NCAA appearance rate. And make the threshold >20% S16 rate, we only lose 4 coaches/programs, and we go down to 23 coaches/programs. So Wojo would not meet that peer group, even with an S16 appearance this year. He would need to go to the S16 the next two years in a row. In which case, I will be full blown ProJo and change my username to 5DollarProJo.
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In one post you say technically yes and in the first you said that's your expectations. There's no technicality about it, you've either been over reacting all season during an open ended season where he could hit your expectations by year end or those aren't your expectations.
To your second paragraph I invite you rewatch the 2011 season. You might've been a bit young to appreciate just how bad it was.
That season was incredibly frustrating. 9-7 in conference needing 1 win to lock up a bid, lost two games we were favored in to end the year. Some may call that a collapse.
But we won the two games in the BET that we needed and then the S16 run erased a lot of the frustration from that year.
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That season was incredibly frustrating. 9-7 in conference needing 1 win to lock up a bid, lost two games we were favored in to end the year. Some may call that a collapse.
But we won the two games in the BET that we needed and then the S16 run erased a lot of the frustration from that year.
Which is why I'm so annoyed by people writing off this year. The end of that season makes people lump it in with the following two but it was extremely frustrating, and there was a heck of a lot more talent on that team than this.
Be frustrated all we want after a loss but don't write off the season or claim an unfinished result is finished.
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>.500 record at current school
>100 games coached at current school
Between 1 and 3 NCAA Tournament appearances (inclusive)
Zero Sweet Sixteen (or further) appearances
If Wojo's results are all we should ever expect (without being entitled), which of these coaches/programs are we aspiring to be?
Big East Conference coaches in their first five seasons at their school and projected 6th season during both similar and different Big East eras:
Jay Wright Villanova first 5 Big East seasons, 103-59, 2 NCAA appearances, a Sweet 16 and Elite 8. Finished 1st in league once, top 5 four times. Did not make NCAA's in his first three seasons at Nova and had a slightly over .500 record during that time.
Kevin Willard 82-80 record, zero NCAA's in his first 5 seasons at Seton Hall.
Greg McDermott Creighton first 5 seasons in Big East. 107-63 3 NCAA's, one NCAA win. 2 third place finishes, one 2nd place finish.
Patrick Ewing 49-39, 3 partially completed seasons, zero NCAA's, one top 3 finish.
(JT3 made 3 NCAA's, Final Four, Sweet 16, in his first 5 seasons, ...in his next 9 seasons he made 5 NCAA's and never made it to the second weekend)
Travis Steele Xavier is 37-26 in two partial seasons seeking his first NCAA.
(Chris Mack went 125-53 in 5 Big East Seasons at Xavier, one league title, one elite 8, one Sweet 16, 2 other top 3 finishes. 5 NCAA's.)
(Chris Holtmann Butler, 3 seasons, 70-31, 3 top 4 finishes, 3 NCAA's, one Sweet 16.)
LaVall Jordan 2 completed seasons one NCAA one NCAA win 37-31.....19-7 this season and will likely make NCAA's.
Wojo first 5 seasons, 97-69, 2 NCAA's, zero NCAA wins, 2 top 3 league finishes. projected to be NCAA team this year.
Because he was mentioned, Coach K, ACC, 85-65, 2 NCAA's, 2 NCAA wins, zero 2nd weekends, finished 3rd once in his first 5 seasons.
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Big East Conference coaches in their first five seasons at their school and projected 6th season during both similar and different Big East eras:
Jay Wright Villanova first 5 Big East seasons, 103-59, 2 NCAA appearances, a Sweet 16 and Elite 8. Finished 1st in league once, top 5 four times. Did not make NCAA's in his first three seasons at Nova and had a slightly over .500 record during that time.
Kevin Willard 82-80 record, zero NCAA's in his first 5 seasons at Seton Hall.
Greg McDermott Creighton first 5 seasons in Big East. 107-63 3 NCAA's, one NCAA win. 2 third place finishes, one 2nd place finish.
Patrick Ewing 49-39, 3 partially completed seasons, zero NCAA's, one top 3 finish.
(JT3 made 3 NCAA's, Final Four, Sweet 16, in his first 5 seasons, ...in his next 9 seasons he made 5 NCAA's and never made it to the second weekend)
Travis Steele Xavier is 37-26 in two partial seasons seeking his first NCAA.
(Chris Mack went 125-53 in 5 Big East Seasons at Xavier, one league title, one elite 8, one Sweet 16, 2 other top 3 finishes. 5 NCAA's.)
(Chris Holtmann Butler, 3 seasons, 70-31, 3 top 4 finishes, 3 NCAA's, one Sweet 16.)
LaVall Jordan 2 completed seasons one NCAA one NCAA win 37-31.....19-7 this season and will likely make NCAA's.
Wojo first 5 seasons, 97-69, 2 NCAA's, zero NCAA wins, 2 top 3 league finishes. projected to be NCAA team this year.
So what I'm getting from this is Wojo ranks 3rd of 4 coaches that you named that have actually completed 5 years.
You forgot about Cooley, too - 103-67; 3 NCAA appearances; BET championship
So really Wojo ranks 4th out of 5 coaches that can be compared to him in their first five years in the Big East, with Willard not a distant 5th.
Is that the point you were trying to make?
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So what I'm getting from this is Wojo ranks 3rd of 4 coaches that you named that have actually completed 5 years.
You forgot about Cooley, too - 103-67; 3 NCAA appearances; BET championship
So really Wojo ranks 4th out of 5 coaches that can be compared to him in their first five years in the Big East, with Willard not a distant 5th.
Is that the point you were trying to make?
It wasn't an exhaustive list. Ed Cooley, 103-67, 3 NCAA's in 5 seasons, one NCAA win. One top 3 league finish. He has not finished better than 3rd in league regular season.
I posted the results of various Big East coaches and programs. People can make their own conclusions based on the facts. Just as the results vary, opinions will vary too.
My point was and is, let's take all coaches in their first 5 seasons at a place, using the Big East even though what the Big East is has changed over time. This can give a better look at how MU compares a little bit with some of its peers.
Someone else can post conference tourney results.
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I did this in the other Wojo performance thread that looked at his wins by quadrant in close games. Instead of trying to determone who's in the same bucket as Wojo in terms of the end result, how about we let the data tell us how Wojo has done versus his "peers"?
Peer group to include;
All first time coaches in the last 10 or 20 years,
that have had 5 years as a head coach at the same university regardless of win percentage and NCAA success.
Rank those coaches by # NCAA bids and over all win percentage. Can list the furthest each coach attained in the NCAA tournament. Wojo will fall naturally in line with his "peers".
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That season was incredibly frustrating. 9-7 in conference needing 1 win to lock up a bid, lost two games we were favored in to end the year. Some may call that a collapse.
But we won the two games in the BET that we needed and then the S16 run erased a lot of the frustration from that year.
I believe MU was one of the last teams (if not the last) in the field in '11.
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Technically, yes. Which actually aligns with what I said about Wojo to begin the year in one of the several polls circulating during the offseason. Sweet Sixteen was a minimum for me not to be calling for his head at the end of the year. I still feel that way.
(https://morbotron.com/video/S02E15/Q-CneahNkbpecS-SHuuTbcZW4Io=.gif)
However, I think there is a 0% chance this team is making a Sweet Sixteen run unless we somehow face a 15 seed in round 2.
Then the goalpost will shift to that Wojo only gets the easy Sweet 16s.
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I did this in the other Wojo performance thread that looked at his wins by quadrant in close games. Instead of trying to determone who's in the same bucket as Wojo in terms of the end result, how about we let the data tell us how Wojo has done versus his "peers"?
Peer group to include;
All first time coaches in the last 10 or 20 years,
that have had 5 years as a head coach at the same university regardless of win percentage and NCAA success.
Rank those coaches by # NCAA bids and over all win percentage. Can list the furthest each coach attained in the NCAA tournament. Wojo will fall naturally in line with his "peers".
Interesting choice for a peer group filtering by first time head coaches. Stumbled across an interesting fact:
Jim Boeheim is the only other active first time head coach with 5+ years tenure in a P6 conference. Very weird; but also speaks to the weird decision to hire a completely fresh, first time head coach at a major basketball school.
That being said, Wojo's rankings in this peer group were as follows:
Win Pct: 18/76 D1; 2/2 P6
NCAA Apps: 20/76 D1; 2/2 P6
NCAA App Rate: 8/76 D1; 2/2 P6
Pretty decent results when compared with the rest of Division I. But we aren't competing against the rest of Division I. There's not much of a peer group to compare within the P6.
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I did this in the other Wojo performance thread that looked at his wins by quadrant in close games. Instead of trying to determone who's in the same bucket as Wojo in terms of the end result, how about we let the data tell us how Wojo has done versus his "peers"?
Peer group to include;
All first time coaches in the last 10 or 20 years,
that have had 5 years as a head coach at the same university regardless of win percentage and NCAA success.
Rank those coaches by # NCAA bids and over all win percentage. Can list the furthest each coach attained in the NCAA tournament. Wojo will fall naturally in line with his "peers".
For me, comparing him to the rest of the league has more value than any new D-1 coach.
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For me, comparing him to the rest of the league has more value than any new D-1 coach.
I was afraid that it would be too limited of a sample size to draw any conclusions.
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I'm sticking with the "peer group" I presented earlier -- 9 all-time great coaches, none of whom accomplished as much in his first five seasons as Wojo did.
Cherry-picking data is fun!
And then, while I'm at it, I think I'll start 87 more threads "proving" how great or how horrible Wojo is. Cuz each of those will be fun, too!
Maybe one of them will even show how DePaul's program is better than Wojo's. Fun, fun, fun!
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I'm sticking with the "peer group" I presented earlier -- 9 all-time great coaches, none of whom accomplished as much in his first five seasons as Wojo did.
Cherry-picking data is fun!
And then, while I'm at it, I think I'll start 87 more threads "proving" how great or how horrible Wojo is. Cuz each of those will be fun, too!
Maybe one of them will even show how DePaul's program is better than Wojo's. Fun, fun, fun!
Norman Dale is the shot in the arm our program needs and can coach circles around wojo. Welcome to my TED talk
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Norman Dale is the shot in the arm our program needs and can coach circles around wojo. Welcome to my TED talk
Hands on a player? Didn't work out too well for Bobby Knight.
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And, as a little bonus, see below for the peer group for my expectations for Marquette basketball. There are exactly 27 coaches/programs on this list; which would stand to reason with the ProJo ideology that Wojo has built us into a top 25-30 program.
Criteria:
>.500 winning percentage at current school
>100 games coached at current school
>50% NCAA Tourney appearance rate
> or equal to 1 Sweet Sixteen (most are well above this)
Few things:
1. If Wojo were to get a Sweet Sixteen, he would join the list of some of the Top 25 coaches of all time. Even as a Projo, I wouldn't say that.
2. Outside of a few names this list is the whose who of college coaches and we are measuring Wojo's success based on that. Wojo should be compared to coaches with 20+ years of success? Coach K? Tom Izzo? Jay Wright? Roy Williams? Huggins, etc.? If that is what he has to live up to, no wonder he isn't living up to your expectations only six years into his career.
3. You look at a few of those coaches. They have sweet sixteens not because of what they did but because of what happened before them. Would you think it is at all possible that if Wojo would have walked into the three amigos he might have gotten a sweet sixteen.
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Few things:
1. If Wojo were to get a Sweet Sixteen, he would join the list of some of the Top 25 coaches of all time. Even as a Projo, I wouldn't say that.
2. Outside of a few names this list is the whose who of college coaches and we are measuring Wojo's success based on that. Wojo should be compared to coaches with 20+ years of success? Coach K? Tom Izzo? Jay Wright? Roy Williams? Huggins, etc.? If that is what he has to live up to, no wonder he isn't living up to your expectations only six years into his career.
3. You look at a few of those coaches. They have sweet sixteens not because of what they did but because of what happened before them. Would you think it is at all possible that if Wojo would have walked into the three amigos he might have gotten a sweet sixteen.
#2 is dead on.
How about this. Of the 27 coaches on this list, which ones achieved better results (overall winning %, Tournament %, etc.) in the first 6 years of their careers? How many has Wojo out-performed? I have no idea what that would show, but it would be potentially more revealing than saying Wojo hasn't lived up to the performance of the best coaches in the business in his first 6 years, most of which have 10+ years of experience on him. That's meaningless and obvious.
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I'm probably just talking to air right now, but another very interesting tidbit to me:
14 coaches in P6 conferences have been employed 5+ years and have ZERO Sweet Sixteen appearances.
5 of these coaches are in the Big East: Willard, Cooley, Wojo, Leitao, McDermott
Not good tourney results for Big East coaches in general.
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I was afraid that it would be too limited of a sample size to draw any conclusions.
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I think it would be fair to compare the 5 years with other Power 5 leagues, good, middle, bad teams as well as top few non Power 5 leagues...but not just anywhere.
For me, fair or unfair first year coach at MU has higher expectations than mid major or low major schools.
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What is your fascination with slurping? You mention it quite a bit. Is there something you want to get off your chest?
When willie slurps, he ain't wasting a drop. nothing on his chest at all.