MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 02:05:03 PM

Title: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 02:05:03 PM
The coaching has been ripped today and rightfully so, but am I the only one who thinks it is more of a talent issue?

I said this in the game thread but wanted to ask further. On how many Big East teams other than MU is Sacar the 2nd best player? One?
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: The Lens on February 22, 2020, 02:06:41 PM
Well the coach let two very talented players walk so it sort of is a coaching issue. 
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Boozemon Barro on February 22, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
The coach is responsible for the talent on his team. The coach is responsible for developing the talent. This is all on the coach.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: hairy worthen on February 22, 2020, 02:07:22 PM
The coaching has been ripped today and rightfully so, but am I the only one who thinks it is more of a talent issue?

I said this in the game thread but wanted to ask further. On how many Big East teams other than MU is Sacar the 2nd best player? One?
You are correct! Who the hell is responsible for bringing in talent. That person should be fired!
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 02:08:29 PM
Okay. To be clear, I'm very aware Wojo is responsible for the talent brought in. He's the CEO.

To me, it just seems like the talent is a bigger issue than X's and O's.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on February 22, 2020, 02:14:08 PM
The coaching has been ripped today and rightfully so, but am I the only one who thinks it is more of a talent issue?

I said this in the game thread but wanted to ask further. On how many Big East teams other than MU is Sacar the 2nd best player? One?
How talented are Providence’s players?  Are they that much more talented than our guys that they ran circles around us on offense and had, what, 8-10 dunks in the game? 

It’s all about system. Our offense is designed to get one guy open looks and that has been taken away by even semi-competent teams. If he doesn’t get that look, it completely falls apart.

Our defense got annihilated because Cooley got his guys to run sets that got them wide open looks on cuts to the rim all freaking game. We successfully do that less than 10 times a game and that’s being generous.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 02:14:55 PM
How talented are Providence’s players?  Are they that much more talented than our guys that they ran circles around us on offense and had, what, 8-10 dunks in the game? 

It’s all about system. Our offense is designed to get one guy open looks and that has been taken away by even semi-competent teams. If he doesn’t get that look, it completely falls apart.

Our defense got annihilated because Cooley got his guys to run sets that got them wide open looks on cuts to the rim all freaking game. We successfully do that less than 10 times a game and that’s being generous.

Yeah, other than Markus I think they are.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: McLintock on February 22, 2020, 02:20:30 PM
Many people think of Wojo as a good recruiter and a less than average or poor coach. The problem with that is the players he brings in are typically not as good as those on most other Big East teams. So he either can’t identify talent, can’t develop or understand how to use the talent he has, or can’t coach. It could be a combination of the above. He also refuses to recruit or play an actual point guard or run any actual offensive sets, so that’s a problem.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Goose on February 22, 2020, 02:21:55 PM
You need talent or a coach. Wojo needs better player based off his coaching success. Only way will ever be success is if he lands studs and more than one.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: CountryRoads on February 22, 2020, 02:23:15 PM
As Buzz said in one his “life lesson” videos...They all have talent, otherwise they wouldn’t be D1 players. They need to become talent...ED. The “ED” standing for “Extra Dimension.” Right now, it seems it may just be erectile dysfunction with this program.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: MUfan12 on February 22, 2020, 02:27:32 PM
The lack of talent starts at the basic level with them. They either lack the focus or the repetitions to make basic basketball plays without hesitating or turning it over.

Who is biting on a ball fake from anyone other than Markus? The numbers say teams should, but the fakes themselves are so bad that the defense can sniff it out.

How many travels have we seen on a basic fake and rip through? The footwork isn't there. Same with the post play. Awful footwork.

Screening... watch MU screen in the half court away from the ball. It's pathetic. They're barely making contact with the defender. And part of that, of course, is on the cutter.

And on defense, the footwork on closeouts is not good. They fly at guys and end up forcing help situations.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WellsstreetWanderer on February 22, 2020, 02:30:43 PM
I think they just don't know what to do if Markus isn't chucking 'em in. No plan B
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 02:33:31 PM
The lack of talent starts at the basic level with them. They either lack the focus or the repetitions to make basic basketball plays without hesitating or turning it over.

Who is biting on a ball fake from anyone other than Markus? The numbers say teams should, but the fakes themselves are so bad that the defense can sniff it out.

How many travels have we seen on a basic fake and rip through? The footwork isn't there. Same with the post play. Awful footwork.

Screening... watch MU screen in the half court away from the ball. It's pathetic. They're barely making contact with the defender. And part of that, of course, is on the cutter.

And on defense, the footwork on closeouts is not good. They fly at guys and end up forcing help situations.

I think I agree with most of this. He's  a good teacher of shooting but beyond that I'm not sure. Markus has good footwork. So did the Hausers. But I'm not sure that was taught at MU.

I think we're lacking basketball players.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: cheebs09 on February 22, 2020, 02:34:04 PM
The lack of talent starts at the basic level with them. They either lack the focus or the repetitions to make basic basketball plays without hesitating or turning it over.

Who is biting on a ball fake from anyone other than Markus? The numbers say teams should, but the fakes themselves are so bad that the defense can sniff it out.

How many travels have we seen on a basic fake and rip through? The footwork isn't there. Same with the post play. Awful footwork.

Screening... watch MU screen in the half court away from the ball. It's pathetic. They're barely making contact with the defender. And part of that, of course, is on the cutter.

And on defense, the footwork on closeouts is not good. They fly at guys and end up forcing help situations.

I mean, we saw the practice video where Ed clearly traveled and MU thought to post it.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 22, 2020, 02:37:06 PM
I think I agree with most of this. He's  a good teacher of shooting but beyond that I'm not sure. Markus has good footwork. So did the Hausers. But I'm not sure that was taught at MU.

I think we're lacking basketball players.

There are some reoccurring basketball fundamentals problems that keep occurring.  The ones most apparent today were Koby dribbling without purpose, the traveling issues and Theo dribbling under the basket.  Those are things that should be drilled in practice and are kind of elementary.   
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: MUfan12 on February 22, 2020, 02:37:22 PM
I think we're lacking basketball players.

Yup. Good athletes but not a lot of basketball players.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BCHoopster on February 22, 2020, 02:39:44 PM
Need a consistent second scorer and they do not have that guy, simple
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: jesmu84 on February 22, 2020, 02:45:03 PM
I think I agree with most of this. He's  a good teacher of shooting but beyond that I'm not sure. Markus has good footwork. So did the Hausers. But I'm not sure that was taught at MU.

I think we're lacking basketball players.

Which is funny because we had more basketball players in the past few years, but the board seemed to believe we were missing the athletes
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: NickelDimer on February 22, 2020, 02:51:26 PM
I think I agree with most of this. He's  a good teacher of shooting but beyond that I'm not sure. Markus has good footwork. So did the Hausers. But I'm not sure that was taught at MU.

I think we're lacking basketball players.
I’d say he’s recruited good shooters. Not sure I’m willing to say he’s taught some of the elite shooters we have/have had to shoot like that. I’d also say these elite shooters have lead to a misconception that Wojo knows how to design an effective offense. This year’s team has really exposed his inability to do so.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 22, 2020, 03:28:44 PM
Ive gotten ripped for it but ive said all along Sacar is not any good.  He will have the occasional good game but apart from OK 3 pt shooting, does nothing else even near average.  His 1-6 like today is quite normal, actually 1-8 or 2-12, is more Sacar like. Unfortunately Brendan has disappeared, doesnt even rebound anymore, very soft.  And Koby is a season long absolute disaster, zero assists today and My goodness how many terrible turnovers?
That leaves us Markus n the 5 spot.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Elonsmusk on February 22, 2020, 03:32:47 PM
I’d say he’s recruited good shooters. Not sure I’m willing to say he’s taught some of the elite shooters we have/have had to shoot like that. I’d also say these elite shooters have lead to a misconception that Wojo knows how to design an effective offense. This year’s team has really exposed his inability to do so.

Wojo hit the lottery in pure shooting talent in Markus, Rowsey, Sam. Fact that team was NIT should have been major red flag that high level winning wasn’t going to happen with his coaching chops (If years 1 and 2 weren’t enough).

The “Wojo’s Playbook,” cartoon hung at Renee Row was not that far off.

Wojo is a good guy. Good heart. Recruited some good kids. However, he doesn’t have “it,” and ultimately isn’t bright enough to figure out how to coax more out of a team - other than to “fight,” “compete,” “play angry.” 

Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BCHoopster on February 22, 2020, 03:34:09 PM
Look at this, the players coming in next year will get lots of playing time, good or bad they will be thrown into the fray quickly
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: rocket surgeon on February 22, 2020, 03:44:20 PM
wojo isn't a motivator.   he isn't passionate enough.  he doesn't seem to challenge the players to be better.  not saying everyone needs to be huggy bear or jim calhoun, but those 2 dudes got into faces.  they'd get T'd up and their players got jazzed.  we all know Al got a few bad technicals, but he made more than he missed.  wojo doesn't seem to fight for his guys and that breeds complacency like, win or lose, they're all just waiting for the post game fruit rollups and juice boxes
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Scoop Snoop on February 22, 2020, 03:51:47 PM
Wojo hit the lottery in pure shooting talent in Markus, Rowsey, Sam. Fact that team was NIT should have been major red flag that high level winning wasn’t going to happen with his coaching chops (If years 1 and 2 weren’t enough).

The “Wojo’s Playbook,” cartoon hung at Renee Row was not that far off.

Wojo is a good guy. Good heart. Recruited some good kids. However, he doesn’t have “it,” and ultimately isn’t bright enough to figure out how to coax more out of a team - other than to “fight,” “compete,” “play angry.”

You forgot "breathe" followed by Wojo showing them how to take a deep breath. That went well.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: cheebs09 on February 22, 2020, 03:53:18 PM
wojo isn't a motivator.   he isn't passionate enough.  he doesn't seem to challenge the players to be better.  not saying everyone needs to be huggy bear or jim calhoun, but those 2 dudes got into faces.  they'd get T'd up and their players got jazzed.  we all know Al got a few bad technicals, but he made more than he missed.  wojo doesn't seem to fight for his guys and that breeds complacency like, win or lose, they're all just waiting for the post game fruit rollups and juice boxes

I’ve been hoping Wojo would get T’d up to light a fire under the team for the past 3 games. It’s sad it has come to that but I feel it could have gotten the crowd into it against Creighton.

I always thought the white T shirt move in Brooklyn was a good motivation tactic, but he crapped all over that by calling it a gimmick later in the year. He had something the team bought into and basically dismissed it later in the year.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Aircraftcarrier on February 22, 2020, 04:16:15 PM
Get a real point guard and he makes everyone better.Like Tony Miller made Mac,Key,Eford and Logterman better.Why we didn't offer McKinley Wright after Archie left Dayton and went to Indiana.Big mistake.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Scoop Snoop on February 22, 2020, 04:48:22 PM
You need talent or a coach. Wojo needs better player based off his coaching success. Only way will ever be success is if he lands studs and more than one.

Why "or"? I think you need both. Why should the players have to prop up a coach? That is not exactly what you said but that's the way I see it. Doesn't seem right to me. They have to perform but he does not?
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Goose on February 22, 2020, 04:51:29 PM
Scoop
Talented players have hid a lot coaching flaws over the years. Of course you want both, but cannot win on big stage without one or the other. My preference is talent, but would take great coaching at the moment.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: PorkysButthole on February 22, 2020, 07:52:56 PM
Porky is with the OP on this.  Our players are just not as good as we all want them to be and it’s a simple as that.  Other than Markus talent is average at best.  Sure the coaching staff deserves some of the blame but how a good can we realistically be if it’s all about the 3 ball?  We have no transition game or paint game whatsoever, and on the rare occasions where one of our guys gets a fast break for an open dunk they miss 50% of the time.  it’s hard to blame those on the coaching staff.   The Creighton game I can understand.  How often do we have four players score in double figures and still lose? Not often but they’re one of the best teams in the country and the surprise of the conference this year so that loss, disappointing though it was, Porky can live with.    Today’s, not so much but I think it has far more to do with mediocre one dimensional players, than the staff.  At the end of the day we all want to be a blue blood and we’re just not.  The sad thing is until we have some tournament success over A multi year period, I don’t see the talent getting much better no matter who the Head coach and remainder of the staff is.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: 21Jumpstreet on February 22, 2020, 09:14:54 PM
Wojo can’t want it more than the guys. I am not a projo. As the quote on my 13 year olds wall says, “Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.” They are talented, we have seen it. Work harder.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 22, 2020, 09:36:47 PM
Not necessarily all talent. Part of it is playing as a team. I would argue Marquette has more talent than SDSU
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Earl Tatum on February 22, 2020, 10:25:56 PM
Still not sold on Bailey. Thought by now Cain, John, Anim and Bailey
would show more consistency in their shooting and BB Smarts after
their years at MU.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: GoldenZebra on February 22, 2020, 11:49:56 PM
Teams are winning and being successful with a lot less talent than MU.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 22, 2020, 11:51:57 PM
Teams are winning and being successful with a lot less talent than MU.

Where? Show me a few teams who are more successful than MU with a 2nd best player worse than Sacar.

I'm sure they exist. I like Sacar. He's probably my favorite player on this team. But our talent 2-9 is not great.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WhiteTrash on February 23, 2020, 11:52:39 AM
Where? Show me a few teams who are more successful than MU with a 2nd best player worse than Sacar.

I'm sure they exist. I like Sacar. He's probably my favorite player on this team. But our talent 2-9 is not great.
I think based upon recruiting rankings, which ProJo's will tell you is a big reason to keep him because next years class is 'ranked so high', that you could argue MU has better talent than the following Top 25 teams:
SDSU
Dayton
Penn State
Creighton
Seton Hall
West Virginia
Colorado
Iowa
Butler
Huston
BYU

Recruiting rankings aside, you maybe correct and Wojo does not have a good eye for high school talent; which means none of us should be too excited for next year's class.

FWIW, I'm 100% for Wojo being back at MU next year. The good  outweighs the bad.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Aircraftcarrier on February 23, 2020, 12:20:01 PM
All 4 teams ahead of MU in standings plus Butler who is tied has better point guard play than MU.Coincidence?I think not
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Aircraftcarrier on February 23, 2020, 12:29:59 PM
MU and DePaul are the only two teams in the Big East that average more turnovers than assists per game.Let that soak in UnleashJayce
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BCHoopster on February 23, 2020, 12:38:49 PM
I think based upon recruiting rankings, which ProJo's will tell you is a big reason to keep him because next years class is 'ranked so high', that you could argue MU has better talent than the following Top 25 teams:
SDSU
Dayton
Penn State
Creighton
Seton Hall
West Virginia
Colorado
Iowa
Butler
Huston
BYU

Recruiting rankings aside, you maybe correct and Wojo does not have a good eye for high school talent; which means none of us should be too excited for next year's class.

FWIW, I'm 100% for Wojo being back at MU next year. The good  outweighs the bad.

Dawson is the real deal, other 2 not sure, but how this coach uses him is a different story
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Stretchdeltsig on February 23, 2020, 12:40:52 PM
As much as loathe the Badgers, for the past twenty years including this year’s team, they play better in February , while our beloved Warriors play worse.  The difference is coaching. The Badgers take mediocre talent and coach them up while Marquette’s more talented players don’t improve.  Wish it weren’t so.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: willie warrior on February 23, 2020, 12:51:01 PM
I think based upon recruiting rankings, which ProJo's will tell you is a big reason to keep him because next years class is 'ranked so high', that you could argue MU has better talent than the following Top 25 teams:
SDSU
Dayton
Penn State
Creighton
Seton Hall
West Virginia
Colorado
Iowa
Butler
Huston
BYU

Recruiting rankings aside, you maybe correct and Wojo does not have a good eye for high school talent; which means none of us should be too excited for next year's class.

FWIW, I'm 100% for Wojo being back at MU next year. The good  outweighs the bad.
Enlighten us on how the good outweighs the bad. Results matter
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BCHoopster on February 23, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
As much as loathe the Badgers, for the past twenty years including this year’s team, they play better in February , while our beloved Warriors play worse.  The difference is coaching. The Badgers take mediocre talent and coach them up while Marquette’s more talented players don’t improve.  Wish it weren’t so.
MU May have more talented athletes, but Wisconsin has smarter players and one major difference is there centers can score from inside and outside, much more opportunities to stretch the court
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Aircraftcarrier on February 23, 2020, 01:00:47 PM
For all you experts.How many more wins would MU have if Colin Gillespie was the point guard instead of McEwen and what would be Villanova record if McEwen was the point guard instead of Gillespie?
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WhiteTrash on February 23, 2020, 01:13:34 PM
Enlighten us on how the good outweighs the bad. Results matter
Fair question. First he seems to be a great person and his players seem to be quality young men. Check in the 'good' side. It appears he'll have gone to his 3rd NCAA in 4 years. We'll have at least made brief appearances in the Top 25 the past 2 years. He can recruit against other big time programs and win. Next years class looks promising.

Negatives: Player development, game coaching (he's better than 6 years ago but I haven't seen much growth the past 2 years), roster construction (lack of a PG is unbelievable), having to rely on MH too much.

I do support him coming back but I would not be surprised at all if last year was the 'high water mark' of Wojo's time at MU.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 23, 2020, 04:05:03 PM
I think based upon recruiting rankings, which ProJo's will tell you is a big reason to keep him because next years class is 'ranked so high', that you could argue MU has better talent than the following Top 25 teams:
SDSU
Dayton
Penn State
Creighton
Seton Hall
West Virginia
Colorado
Iowa
Butler
Huston
BYU

Recruiting rankings aside, you maybe correct and Wojo does not have a good eye for high school talent; which means none of us should be too excited for next year's class.

FWIW, I'm 100% for Wojo being back at MU next year. The good  outweighs the bad.

Butler is the only team that's even close to MU in talent. Everyone else has far more. Markus is better than Baldwin, their 2-4 are better but our roster may be more complete. We have nobody who can break down a defense consistently other than Markus. We have guys who shoot good percentages from deep but can't create seperation to get those shots. Our bigs are incredibly slow and mechanical.

All my opinion, of course.

Title: Re: Talent
Post by: tower912 on February 23, 2020, 04:08:14 PM
If it is a talent issue, then Wojo must be a genius as a game coach.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Warrior of Law on February 23, 2020, 04:20:19 PM
When you consider how unreliable starters like Koby, Sacar & Brendan actually are, I give some credit to the staff for being .500 in conference. It doesn't get much better when Jamal Cain comes in, either.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: BM1090 on February 23, 2020, 04:23:32 PM
If it is a talent issue, then Wojo must be a genius as a game coach.

I don't think he's a genius. I just think his recruiting is a bit overrated and his X's and O's are a bit underrated. He's pretty average in all facets. The improved recruiting should help.

I think player development (outside of shooting) is my biggest concern.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WarriorHal on February 23, 2020, 04:39:00 PM
Regarding talent, how many players recruited by Buzz went on to play in the NBA, and how many players recruited by Wojo have played in the NBA? Anybody know?
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: willie warrior on February 23, 2020, 04:47:04 PM
When you consider how unreliable starters like Koby, Sacar & Brendan actually are, I give some credit to the staff for being .500 in conference. It doesn't get much better when Jamal Cain comes in, either.
Good grief. Now we should celebrate being .500 in conference
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 23, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Bottom line is whether the problem is lack of talent or lack of coaching ability, the finger has to point to Woj. He's da dude in in charge and as such is 100% responsible for the product he puts out on the court, hey?
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WhiteTrash on February 23, 2020, 05:52:16 PM
Butler is the only team that's even close to MU in talent. Everyone else has far more. Markus is better than Baldwin, their 2-4 are better but our roster may be more complete. We have nobody who can break down a defense consistently other than Markus. We have guys who shoot good percentages from deep but can't create seperation to get those shots. Our bigs are incredibly slow and mechanical.

All my opinion, of course.
I'm not going to argue that. I was saying based upon high school recruiting rankings. That list is not a "who's who" of top 25-30 classes year in and out.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: packbrewbucksbhawksmarq on February 23, 2020, 06:05:50 PM
Regarding talent, how many players recruited by Buzz went on to play in the NBA, and how many players recruited by Wojo have played in the NBA? Anybody know?

This is only for Marquette players

Recruited by Buzz:
Jimmy Butler (JUCO)
Dwight Buycks (JUCO)
Jae Crowder (JUCO)
Darius Johnson-Odom (JUCO)
Vander Blue
Jamil Wilson (transferred in)
Juan Toscano-Anderson
Deonte Burton
Also coached Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal, and Lazar Hayward

Recruited by Wojo:
Henry Ellenson
Also coached Juan Toscano-Anderson and Deonte Burton (transferred out)
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: Eldon on February 23, 2020, 07:47:29 PM
This is only for Marquette players

Recruited by Buzz:
Jimmy Butler (JUCO)
Dwight Buycks (JUCO)
Jae Crowder (JUCO)
Darius Johnson-Odom (JUCO)
Vander Blue
Jamil Wilson (transferred in)
Juan Toscano-Anderson
Deonte Burton
Also coached Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal, and Lazar Hayward

Recruited by Wojo:
Henry Ellenson
Also coached Juan Toscano-Anderson and Deonte Burton (transferred out)

Lockett signed with the Kings (something foretold on Scoop!), but I believe he only played in the pre-season.
Title: Re: Talent
Post by: WarriorHal on February 23, 2020, 08:13:40 PM
This is only for Marquette players

Recruited by Buzz:
Jimmy Butler (JUCO)
Dwight Buycks (JUCO)
Jae Crowder (JUCO)
Darius Johnson-Odom (JUCO)
Vander Blue
Jamil Wilson (transferred in)
Juan Toscano-Anderson
Deonte Burton
Also coached Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal, and Lazar Hayward

Recruited by Wojo:
Henry Ellenson
Also coached Juan Toscano-Anderson and Deonte Burton (transferred out)

Buzz recruited far superior talent and was a much better coach. No surprise he had much more success.