MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on February 02, 2020, 04:13:02 PM
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Coach takes over program that didn't go to NCAA or NIT previous year.
++ First season: 13-19.
++ Second season: 20-13, no postseason.
++ Third season: 19-13; NCAA 10th seed, first-round loss.
++ Fourth season: 21-14; NIT, third-round loss.
++ Fifth season: 24-10; conference runner-up after leading race but falling apart late due to intra-team squabbling; NCAA 5th seed, first-round loss.
++ Sixth season: 16-6 about 2/3 of the way through season; NCAA bid likely.
++ Top-10 recruiting class signed for his 7th season.
++ Numerous transfers out, including 3 high-major caliber players.
++ Several good transfers in, though arguably none the caliber of the 3 top players who transferred out.
++ Under his watch, team never has had a hint of NCAA rules violations or scrapes with the law.
Questions:
Realistically, would any school fire that coach?
If so, would it be a blueblood?
Would the AD/president/board of any non-blueblood school fire that coach?
I'll hang up and listen.
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Sigh. No. And no one whose opinion matters is talking about Wojo going anywhere. Only people saying this are on message boards and some students.
His seat is as cool as Milwaukee winter.
Go Marquette.
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I’m not sure there are a whole lot of people
On this board saying he should be fired. Over his head? Sure. Not exactly the workaholic his two Predecessors appeared to be? Yes. But he is what he is. And I’m not sure there’s anybody on this board who’s ever said they don’t like the guy.
There are too many people on this board who go out of their way to suggest anybody questioning Wojo’s coaching chops are anti
marquette and want the coach axed. That sentiment doesn’t really exist on the board. It’s nonsense. People observe what they observe and comment on it. He lost two starters last year...the transfers in aren’t “arguably” (your word) worse...they’re not even in the same category! Another contributor walked off the team this year. There was a lot of talk about Sacar and a couple others following the Hausers out the door. They didn’t stay because Sam and Joey left...they had to be convinced to stay. To dismiss this is asinine.
Although I haven’t read too many people demanding his ouster, if he werent such a nice guy and a bit of a media creation, people would be comparing him unfavorably to Mike Deane. And rightfully so.
But pearl clutching because of booing (which I agree is a bad look) is lame. Wojo makes a couple million dollars a year! F’n deal with it!!
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Two things......
1. Blaming the late season collapse on intra-team squabbling is too simplistic.
Sam and Markus being injured, and Joey hitting the freshman wall were far more important factors IMHO.
2. No one knows how good Sam will be following his hip surgery, and Joey has a lot to prove before the impact of his loss can be quantified. I still believe that the Hausers leaving and Markus staying was the best outcome for everyone involved. Including the Marquette basketball program and ultimately its fan base.
Fire the coach???
For what???
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I’m not sure there are a whole lot of people
On this board saying he should be fired. Over his head? Sure. Not exactly the workaholic his two Predecessors appeared to be? Yes. But he is what he is. And I’m not sure there’s anybody on this board who’s ever said they don’t like the guy.
There are too many people on this board who go out of their way to suggest anybody questioning Wojo’s coaching chops are anti
marquette and want the coach axed. That sentiment doesn’t really exist on the board. It’s nonsense. People observe what they observe and comment on it. He lost two starters last year...the transfers in aren’t “arguably” (your word) worse...they’re not even in the same category! Another contributor walked off the team this year. There was a lot of talk about Sacar and a couple others following the Hausers out the door. They didn’t stay because Sam and Joey left...they had to be convinced to stay. To dismiss this is asinine.
Although I haven’t read too many people demanding his ouster, if he werent such a nice guy and a bit of a media creation, people would be comparing him unfavorably to Mike Deane. And rightfully so.
But pearl clutching because of booing (which I agree is a bad look) is lame. Wojo makes a couple million dollars a year! F’n deal with it!!
It’s not Wojo we are worried about or any guy making $2M/yr. it’s the kid who wants to make $2M+/yr who is wondering which coach is going to get him there and one coach’s idiot fans are booing him. That is what people don’t seem to get.
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I’m not sure there are a whole lot of people
On this board saying he should be fired. Over his head? Sure. Not exactly the workaholic his two Predecessors appeared to be? Yes. But he is what he is. And I’m not sure there’s anybody on this board who’s ever said they don’t like the guy.
There are too many people on this board who go out of their way to suggest anybody questioning Wojo’s coaching chops are anti
marquette and want the coach axed. That sentiment doesn’t really exist on the board. It’s nonsense. People observe what they observe and comment on it. He lost two starters last year...the transfers in aren’t “arguably” (your word) worse...they’re not even in the same category! Another contributor walked off the team this year. There was a lot of talk about Sacar and a couple others following the Hausers out the door. They didn’t stay because Sam and Joey left...they had to be convinced to stay. To dismiss this is asinine.
Although I haven’t read too many people demanding his ouster, if he werent such a nice guy and a bit of a media creation, people would be comparing him unfavorably to Mike Deane. And rightfully so.
But pearl clutching because of booing (which I agree is a bad look) is lame. Wojo makes a couple million dollars a year! F’n deal with it!!
I’ve never heard the idea that Wojo doesn’t work hard. From anyone. Where does that come from?
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Coach takes over program that didn't go to NCAA or NIT previous year.
++ First season: 13-19.
++ Second season: 20-13, no postseason.
++ Third season: 19-13; NCAA 10th seed, first-round loss.
++ Fourth season: 21-14; NIT, third-round loss.
++ Fifth season: 24-10; conference runner-up after leading race but falling apart late due to intra-team squabbling; NCAA 5th seed, first-round loss.
++ Sixth season: 16-6 about 2/3 of the way through season; NCAA bid likely.
++ Top-10 recruiting class signed for his 7th season.
++ Numerous transfers out, including 3 high-major caliber players.
++ Several good transfers in, though arguably none the caliber of the 3 top players who transferred out.
++ Under his watch, team never has had a hint of NCAA rules violations or scrapes with the law.
Questions:
Realistically, would any school fire that coach?
If so, would it be a blueblood?
Would the AD/president/board of any non-blueblood school fire that coach?
I'll hang up and listen.
You can't ask this without additional information...such as:
What is the history/tradition of the school, and maybe more appropriately what was accomplished at the same school with previous coaches in the same time frame??
What are the fans expectations and are those reasonable??
What are the expectations of the administration that makes the decision??
What kind of priority in term's of expenditure's do you put into the program, and are you getting reasonable return on that investment??
Have you won in the postseason??
Have your conference records largely been built on beating teams you are supposed to beat, and then failing to beat the better teams consistently??
Lots of variables, and need all the appropriate info.
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I guess we should hang some banners.
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Not exactly the workaholic his two Predecessors appeared to be? Yes.
I don't get this criticism. The two coaches before Wojo were shameless self promoters that put themselves over the program. Wojo seems to be putting into he work by the recruits he's been a finalist on, but just because he's not asking media buddies to report it for him doesn't mean he doesn't put in the work.
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Coach takes over program that didn't go to NCAA or NIT previous year.
++ First season: 13-19.
++ Second season: 20-13, no postseason.
++ Third season: 19-13; NCAA 10th seed, first-round loss.
++ Fourth season: 21-14; NIT, third-round loss.
++ Fifth season: 24-10; conference runner-up after leading race but falling apart late due to intra-team squabbling; NCAA 5th seed, first-round loss.
++ Sixth season: 16-6 about 2/3 of the way through season; NCAA bid likely.
++ Top-10 recruiting class signed for his 7th season.
++ Numerous transfers out, including 3 high-major caliber players.
++ Several good transfers in, though arguably none the caliber of the 3 top players who transferred out.
++ Under his watch, team never has had a hint of NCAA rules violations or scrapes with the law.
Questions:
Realistically, would any school fire that coach?
If so, would it be a blueblood?
Would the AD/president/board of any non-blueblood school fire that coach?
I'll hang up and listen.
Delete paragraph #1, replace it with:
Coach takes over program that has made the NCAA tournament 8 of the last 9 and made the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once in the last four years.
More than one way to look at it.
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Both are true.
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Delete paragraph #1, replace it with:
Coach takes over program that has made the NCAA tournament 8 of the last 9 and made the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once in the last four years.
+1000, people seem to conveniently forget that when discussing this and only focus on the last year of that run and where Wojo took over. It's like the NCAA results previous to that one year(that was an outlier of the 9 year run) and the final year of the previous 4(Sweet 16X2 and Elite 8 once) are somehow irrelevant and can't be factored in as to expectations for Wojo. It's weird how those years are conveniently disregarded.
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So many new points being made here and not ar all a rehash of the last 18 months.
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+1000, people seem to conveniently forget that when discussing this and only focus on the last year of that run and where Wojo took over. It's like the NCAA results previous to that one year(that was an outlier of the 9 year run) and the final year of the previous 4(Sweet 16X2 and Elite 8 once) are somehow irrelevant and can't be factored in as to expectations for Wojo. It's weird how those years are conveniently disregarded.
I wasn't aware Wojo had Vander Blue, Jae Crowder, and Jimmy Butler on his first roster.
It's not relevant to the conversation because what matters is the players that Wojo inherited. A completely different group of players going to the elite eight two years earlier doesn't make Jajuan Johnson a better player.
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+1000, people seem to conveniently forget that when discussing this and only focus on the last year of that run and where Wojo took over. It's like the NCAA results previous to that one year(that was an outlier of the 9 year run) and the final year of the previous 4(Sweet 16X2 and Elite 8 once) are somehow irrelevant and can't be factored in as to expectations for Wojo. It's weird how those years are conveniently disregarded.
What changed?
That nine year run started with the entry into the Big East during its prime. Had MU entered the Big East and not been good that nine year run wouldn’t have happened. It ended when the Big East broke a part. At the time the new Big East was seen as mid major by most talking heads and recruits were questioning whether it would remain near the top. Had Nova not won it twice it probably would be. Look how many prominent coaches left. MU walked into the new league and sucked. Our coach just left.
If you look back and take emotions out, Wojo’s first team wasn’t good. Not much he could do with it as High school recruits were signed prior to him being announced. That team was more of a sign of Buzz’s team then Wojo’s. Had Buzz stayed we would have had Shayok and Hill so our year might have been better but he didn’t stay so again team was more of a reflection of Buzz. Year 2 we got slightly better but still filling gaps.
Based on what was there, I consider Wojo’s first year year 3 and he will likely be three for four in that stretch. Just like I don’t consider Buzz’s first year at VT his first year because he inherited junk but he took our recruits which made his year two slightly better.
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I wasn't aware Wojo had Vander Blue, Jae Crowder, and Jimmy Butler on his first roster.
It's not relevant to the conversation because what matters is the players that Wojo inherited. A completely different group of players going to the elite eight two years earlier doesn't make Jajuan Johnson a better player.
LOL And who recruited, Jimmy, Vander and Jae?? Buzz did...yes, buzz inherited the amigos, but there were there for ONE year. After that, everyone was essentially Buzz's own guys(at least main players). So now let's compare apples to apples shall we?? When Buzz had his own guys, how did he do?? Wojo has had all his own guys for a few years now...are the results comparable?? You know the answer to that...and this is where you will remain silent, because it's game over...It's a straight up even comparison..man y mano, buzz's own guys vs Wojo's own guys...and keep in mind, Buzz had his success in the greatest conference ever assembled.
What say you now?? 8-)
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LOL And who recruited, Jimmy, Vander and Jae?? Buzz did...yes, buzz inherited the amigos, but there were there for ONE year. After that, everyone was essentially Buzz's own guys(at least main players). So now let's compare apples to apples shall we?? When Buzz had his own guys, how did he do?? Wojo has had all his own guys for a few years now...are the results comparable?? You know the answer to that...and this is where you will remain silent, because it's game over...It's a straight up even comparison..man y mano, buzz's own guys vs Wojo's own guys...and keep in mind, Buzz had his success in the greatest conference ever assembled.
What say you now?? 8-)
I say Buzz is the better coach, like I have always said.
I also say that Buzz wasn't fired, so Wojo doesn't need to be at that level to avoid being fired.
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What changed?
That nine year run started with the entry into the Big East during its prime. Had MU entered the Big East and not been good that nine year run wouldn’t have happened. It ended when the Big East broke a part. At the time the new Big East was seen as mid major by most talking heads and recruits were questioning whether it would remain near the top. Had Nova not won it twice it probably would be. Look how many prominent coaches left. MU walked into the new league and sucked. Our coach just left.
If you look back and take emotions out, Wojo’s first team wasn’t good. Not much he could do with it as High school recruits were signed prior to him being announced. That team was more of a sign of Buzz’s team then Wojo’s. Had Buzz stayed we would have had Shayok and Hill so our year might have been better but he didn’t stay so again team was more of a reflection of Buzz. Year 2 we got slightly better but still filling gaps.
Based on what was there, I consider Wojo’s first year year 3 and he will likely be three for four in that stretch. Just like I don’t consider Buzz’s first year at VT his first year because he inherited junk but he took our recruits which made his year two slightly better.
But again, if you read my post below to TAMU, what did Buzz do in the greatest conference ever assembled, with his own guys(after what he inherited left), vs what Wojo has accomplished with his own guys, in a very good, but no one argues not nearly as good as the old BE conference?? That's actually when Buzz did his best work, right when he had his own guys??
Look, I'm not saying he should be fired, I like his recruiting class coming in. But at some point, the VERY projoers need to stop using that first year as a crutch. That is long past and over with. It's been Wojo's own guys for awhile now. I think it's a fair argument to make why with his own guys, he hasn't had as much success in a lessor conference, then Buzz did with his own guys in the best conference ever assembled?? Isn't it??
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LOL And who recruited, Jimmy, Vander and Jae?? Buzz did...yes, buzz inherited the amigos, but there were there for ONE year. After that, everyone was essentially Buzz's own guys(at least main players). So now let's compare apples to apples shall we?? When Buzz had his own guys, how did he do?? Wojo has had all his own guys for a few years now...are the results comparable?? You know the answer to that...and this is where you will remain silent, because it's game over...It's a straight up even comparison..man y mano, buzz's own guys vs Wojo's own guys...and keep in mind, Buzz had his success in the greatest conference ever assembled.
What say you now?? 8-)
🤪
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I say Buzz is the better coach, like I have always said.
I also say that Buzz wasn't fired, so Wojo doesn't need to be at that level to avoid being fired.
You can say Buzz was run off though. But regardless TAMU, my argument isn't so much that Wojo needs to be at that level to avoid being fired, my question is more along the lines of, why can't we expect the same results, or awfully close?? Why hasn't he gotten to that level?? After 5 years, Buzz and TC both had conference championships and deep post season success. Why can't/shouldn't that have been the expectation after the same time frame for Wojo?? I think that's fair.
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Other than maybe Cheeks, I don't think anyone has said that Wojo is better Buzz, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with Guru.
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Other than maybe Cheeks, I don't think anyone has said that Wojo is better Buzz, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with Guru.
The sky. He’s arguing with the sky.
Occasionally his dog.
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You can say Buzz was run off though. But regardless TAMU, my argument isn't so much that Wojo needs to be at that level to avoid being fired, my question is more along the lines of, why can't we expect the same results, or awfully close?? Why hasn't he gotten to that level?? After 5 years, Buzz and TC both had conference championships and deep post season success. Why can't/shouldn't that have been the expectation after the same time frame for Wojo?? I think that's fair.
I guess it depends on what your definition of expectations is. For me if you don't meet expectations you are fired. You seem to have a different definition.
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I guess it depends on what your definition of expectations is. For me if you don't meet expectations you are fired. You seem to have a different definition.
Well in reality, Wojo only needs to meet the admin's expectations, since they are the one's that make the decision. Fan's expectations don't mean much in that regard. Obviously he has met the admin's expectations. I just don't like getting told that as a fan, holding Wojo to the same expectations as what Crean and Buzz achieved in the same time frame is unfair. I think it's 100% fair.
Now the question can also be asked, are the admin's expectations to low in comparison to fans expectations?? I do feel like this current admin has lower expectations than the Wild/Cords/Cottingham regime had.
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No. You don't fire that coach.
Among other reasons not to do it, I don't believe good, established coaches are gonna want to work at a place that fires coaches who are successful in building a program
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No. You don't fire that coach.
Among other reasons not to do it, I don't believe good, established coaches are gonna want to work at a place that fires coaches who are successful in building a program
Well that’s a very mediocre thought process. Were you even alive in ‘77?
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No. You don't fire that coach.
Among other reasons not to do it, I don't believe good, established coaches are gonna want to work at a place that fires coaches who are successful in building a program
Hopefully, Wojo can be that coach.
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Other than maybe Cheeks, I don't think anyone has said that Wojo is better Buzz, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with Guru.
He's not arguing, he's distracting.
He and the other NoJos are trying to use obfuscation to cover for the fact that when Marquette was 1-3 they were peeing all over themselves and proclaiming the end times.
Now that the team is 6-4 it's back to the Buzz v Wojo comparisons.
Of course, God forbid anyone else should compare other great coaches records at the same point in their career as Wojo. Then the NoJos become the ultimate hypocrites and chastise others for comparing Wojo to the all time great coaches, even though they compare him to Buzz and other top coaches when it suits them.
Captains Obvious
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He's not arguing, he's distracting.
He and the other NoJos are trying to use obfuscation to cover for the fact that when Marquette was 1-3 they were peeing all over themselves and proclaiming the end times.
Now that the team is 6-4 it's back to the Buzz v Wojo comparisons.
Of course, God forbid anyone else should compare other great coaches records at the same point in their career as Wojo. Then the NoJos become the ultimate hypocrites and chastise others for comparing Wojo to the all time great coaches, even though they compare him to Buzz and other top coaches when it suits them.
Captains Obvious
I think I speak for everyone when i say give it a rest, your shtick is old and tired. I have said repeatedly(you obviously can't read), that I don't want him fired. But you obviously also don't understand why it's fair to wonder why Wojo hasn't accomplished what Buzz and Crean did in the same time frame. Maybe he's just not as good?? Wouldn't that be something?? Hard for you to imagine...I know
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I think I speak for everyone when i say give it a rest, your shtick is old and tired. I have said repeatedly(you obviously can't read), that I don't want him fired. But you obviously also don't understand why it's fair to wonder why Wojo hasn't accomplished what Buzz and Crean did in the same time frame. Maybe he's just not as good?? Wouldn't that be something?? Hard for you to imagine...I know
Just join the growing crowd of people muting all of his accounts
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I think I speak for everyone when i say give it a rest, your shtick is old and tired. I have said repeatedly(you obviously can't read), that I don't want him fired. But you obviously also don't understand why it's fair to wonder why Wojo hasn't accomplished what Buzz and Crean did in the same time frame. Maybe he's just not as good?? Wouldn't that be something?? Hard for you to imagine...I know
I don’t know about everyone. Chico might disagree.
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Look, I'm not saying he should be fired
If I'm not mistaken, you said you thought he should have been fired after last season. "Better too early than too late" ... or something like that. Unless that wasn't you or I am misremembering it - which is possible. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, and I will absolutely accept correcting if I'm wrong about that.
All I asked in my OP is how many schools would fire a coach with this resume.
I’m not sure there are a whole lot of people
On this board saying he should be fired.
He lost two starters last year...the transfers in aren’t “arguably” (your word) worse...they’re not even in the same category!
people would be comparing him unfavorably to Mike Deane. And rightfully so.
But pearl clutching because of booing (which I agree is a bad look) is lame.
1. I guess it depends on one's definition of "a whole lot of people on this board," because quite a few have come right out and said he should be fired.
2. Fair point. The Hausers and Burton -- the only 3 high-major players to transfer under Wojo (4, if you want to count Duane Wilson, who had lost his job at MU) - are/were better than Rowsey, McEwen, Reinhardt, etc. Of course, unless one thinks Burton was lying, there was nothing Wojo could have done to keep him. But sure, "arguably" was too soft on my part. I'd have taken Sam over any of them, including his whiny little brother.
3. Don't you read this board? Many Nojos have compared Wojo unfavorably to Deane ... and most undeservedly so. In Year 5, Deane went 14-15 overall, went 6-10 in a bad conference, and had proven himself to be a horrible recruiter; in Year 5, Wojo went 24-10, finished second in a good conference, and laid the foundation for signing a top-10 recruiting class. If Wojo had gone 14-15 last season and run the recruiting into the ground, I would have been near the front of the line calling for him to be fired. Don't make up stuff just to fit your narrative.
4. Glad you agree the booing is a bad look. It's stupid, immature, without basis and counterproductive.
Delete paragraph #1, replace it with:
Coach takes over program that has made the NCAA tournament 8 of the last 9 and made the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once in the last four years.
More than one way to look at it.
Reasonable, Lenny.
Of course, you being reasonable, you also know that era of the Marquette basketball program ended when Buzz left, his leftovers were mediocre and his top recruits followed him out the door. BTW, I loved the Buzz Era every bit as much as you did, and was proud to call him our coach.
I say Buzz is the better coach, like I have always said.
Yep. Not a single Scooper with even an iota of basketball knowledge has ever suggested Wojo was as good a coach as Buzz. I hope he gets to that level. Maybe he will, maybe he won't.
But that has nothing to do with the OP. There probably are a few bluebloods who would fire the coach whose resume I presented. Few, if any, non-bluebloods would.
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Other than maybe Cheeks, I don't think anyone has said that Wojo is better Buzz, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with Guru.
Glad you said maybe, because I never said Wojo was a better coach than Buzz.
I am glad we have Wojo....2 different things.
Wojo is coaching with parameters set for him by administration. Buzz chose to take a year off rather than coach with those parameters and left. I will take the guy that didn’t quit.
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Buzz, left ... MU did not try to get him to stay, but if they did, it probably would not have stopped him from leaving.
So, who did you wish MU chose instead, that have proven themselves to be a better pick than Wojo? Shaka, Ben Howland? (and don't say Porter Moser as exactly no one brought him up during the search, and his name never came up for years after, until they made the FF.)
Bruce Pearl? Did you really want him, and all the baggage that comes with him?
(to be clear, my point is not only am I happy with Wojo, but I also don't see anyone that MU passed on that makes one think they "missed" by hiring Wojo.)
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Glad you said maybe, because I never said Wojo was a better coach than Buzz.
I am glad we have Wojo....2 different things.
Wojo is coaching with parameters set for him by administration. Buzz chose to take a year off rather than coach with those parameters and left. I will take the guy that didn’t quit.
So what you're saying is, if your employer suddenly "changes the rules" and gives you parameters to work under that suddenly make things more difficult for you to perform your job at the highest level you feel you possibly can, that you shouldn't look for a new job?? Not sure that's good advice to be giving anyone. Just my opinion. I was at a job for 21 years and out of the blue the rules changed, and I became handcuffed and uncomfortable to the point I felt I couldn't do my job to the best of my abilities like I had before. I quit that job and went somewhere else.
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So what you're saying is, if your employer suddenly "changes the rules" and gives you parameters to work under that suddenly make things more difficult for you to perform your job at the highest level you feel you possibly can, that you shouldn't look for a new job?? Not sure that's good advice to be giving anyone. Just my opinion. I was at a job for 21 years and out of the blue the rules changed, and I became handcuffed and uncomfortable to the point I felt I couldn't do my job to the best of my abilities like I had before. I quit that job and went somewhere else.
One of the rules that changed was not accepting kids that were expelled from HS for intentionally setting a girl's hair on fire. I feel like that's a pretty common sense one though
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Buzz, left ... MU did not try to get him to stay, but if they did, it probably would not have stopped him from leaving.
So, who did you wish MU chose instead, that have proven themselves to be a better pick than Wojo? Shaka, Ben Howland? (and don't say Porter Moser as exactly no one brought him up during the search, and his name never came up for years after, until they made the FF.)
Bruce Pearl? Did you really want him, and all the baggage that comes with him?
(to be clear, my point is not only am I happy with Wojo, but I also don't see anyone that MU passed on that makes one think they "missed" by hiring Wojo.)
This is hard to quantify without knowing if MU reached out to anyone else that wasn't mentioned, and if they did, and wanted that person badly enough, did they offer them whatever it would have taken to get that person?? Of the people you list, I was all in on Shaka. It's completely unfair however to say just because he hasn't gotten it done at Texas, he wouldn't have gotten it done at MU. We just don't know how it would have worked out.
I mean I thought that whole "search" was kind of weird actually..obviously we don't know for sure, but did MU try to hit a home run at all?? Usually with Coaching searches, schools always contact a "grand slam" to see if they might be interested..You see it all the time with schools hiring other Coaches away and AD's making sure they "get their guy"(yes I know Shaka, but did they try for bigger??). I'm not sure MU did that. They seem to have this thing for hiring assistants.
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I don’t know about everyone. Chico might disagree.
Yeah, I would not be part of that everyone and neither would a number of other people here.
Guru’s logic is funny. He complains about people not listening to him or reading, but isn’t he doing the same?
Why hasn’t Wojo accomplished the same as Crean or Buzz? Have we not gone through this countless times. Would Wojo be allowed to recruit a Dwade? We know he wasn’t allowed to add the number of guys Buzz did. As a result, aren’t we comparing different scenarios? If you have two good painters, but one of them is only allowed to use half a brush vs the other can use a full brush...are they in the same situation?
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One of the rules that changed was not accepting kids that were expelled from HS for intentionally setting a girl's hair on fire. I feel like that's a pretty common sense one though
So no one deserves a second chance?? I mean just because they did something stupid, doesn't mean it's going to follow them to wherever they go next, right?? I kind of understand it, but it's also pretty narrow minded if you ask me.
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So what you're saying is, if your employer suddenly "changes the rules" and gives you parameters to work under that suddenly make things more difficult for you to perform your job at the highest level you feel you possibly can, that you shouldn't look for a new job?? Not sure that's good advice to be giving anyone. Just my opinion. I was at a job for 21 years and out of the blue the rules changed, and I became handcuffed and uncomfortable to the point I felt I couldn't do my job to the best of my abilities like I had before. I quit that job and went somewhere else.
So you admit the rules have changed and yet, you demand the same results from Wojo that Crean and Buzz got under different rules.
Do you hear yourself sometimes?
Incidentally, I quit a job in professional sports when they changed the rules on me...so yes, I get it. The guy that replaced me was hired under a different set of rules...he then quit about 6 months later and they reverted back to the original rules. I get it. Wojo hasn’t quit and is doing quite well under rules that Buzz left because of....and yet despite these rules which make Wojo’s life harder as a coach...you expect same results. Tell me what I am missing.
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Yeah, I would not be part of that everyone and neither would a number of other people here.
Guru’s logic is funny. He complains about people not listening to him or reading, but isn’t he doing the same?
Why hasn’t Wojo accomplished the same as Crean or Buzz? Have we not gone through this countless times. Would Wojo be allowed to recruit a Dwade? We know he wasn’t allowed to add the number of guys Buzz did. As a result, aren’t we comparing different scenarios? If you have two good painters, but one of them is only allowed to use half a brush vs the other can use a full brush...are they in the same situation?
I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??
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So no one deserves a second chance?? I mean just because they did something stupid, doesn't mean it's going to follow them to wherever they go next, right?? I kind of understand it, but it's also pretty narrow minded if you ask me.
But it did. And that player was also told to leave K state.
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Buzz, left ... MU did not try to get him to stay, but if they did, it probably would not have stopped him from leaving.
So, who did you wish MU chose instead, that have proven themselves to be a better pick than Wojo? Shaka, Ben Howland? (and don't say Porter Moser as exactly no one brought him up during the search, and his name never came up for years after, until they made the FF.)
Bruce Pearl? Did you really want him, and all the baggage that comes with him?
(to be clear, my point is not only am I happy with Wojo, but I also don't see anyone that MU passed on that makes one think they "missed" by hiring Wojo.)
This^ and That^
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Sigh. No. And no one whose opinion matters is talking about Wojo going anywhere. Only people saying this are on message boards and some students.
His seat is as cool as Milwaukee winter.
Go Marquette.
This.
He’s not being fired. It’s seems like people think if they sway Pro-jos over to their side, he will be gone, like it’s an episode of survivor. He is 100% coming back.
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Unless someone else hires him. Other schools may see the virtues that some of the fan base are missing
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No. You don't fire that coach.
Among other reasons not to do it, I don't believe good, established coaches are gonna want to work at a place that fires coaches who are successful in building a program
This.
When was the last time a major program fired a coach who has performed as good as or better than Wojo?
I am not asking rhetorically; if anyone knows, I would like to hear it.
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This.
When was the last time a major program fired a coach who has performed as good as or better than Wojo's?
I am not asking rhetorically; if anyone knows, I would like to hear it.
Amen.
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This.
When was the last time a major program fired a coach who has performed as good as or better than Wojo's?
I am not asking rhetorically; if anyone knows, I would like to hear it.
Exactly, chickadee. It was the point of my OP.
Steve Lavin made 4 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 in his first 6 years at UCLA and always seemed to be on the verge of being fired for failing to contend for conference titles. When he finally did have that one losing season in Year 7, he was canned. Nowhere near an identical comparison - he actually outperformed Wojo for most of his time; he didn't just lose in Year 7, he crashed and burned by going 10-19 and I believe there were off-court issues too; and of course he was at a school that definitely considered itself a blueblood. Lavin's time at St. John's maybe was more kinda sorta similar to Wojo's at MU - he and the school did the ol' "parted ways" after a first-round NCAA loss ended Year 5.
If the Great Shaka Smart gets fired after this season at Texas, it actually would be pretty close; but that's a big "if."
Bruce Weber at Illinois? He accomplished more early with Self's recruits (Deron Williams, Dee Brown, James Augustine, Luther Head, Roger Powell, Jack Ingram - "slightly" better than what Buzz left Wojo!) but sputtered badly before he was fired. Not very similar at all, actually.
There might be other examples that better demonstrate a school firing a coach with Wojo's resume. I'd welcome an example or 3.
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I’ve kept things very close to the vest on my Projo versus Nojo, Allbuzz versus Buzzcut, hold the Crean versus I Creaned my pants status.
After not reading all of these coaching threads I’m finally ready to take a stance.
Tom Crean was awesome when he won games. Buzz Williams was awesome when he won games. Steve Wojciechowski is awesome when he wins games.
This is my stance and I’m sticking to it. Don’t anyone dare try to sway me one way or the other.
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I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??
Buzz could claim it was about second chances all he wanted, but it was about creating a recruiting advantage by going after kids that other programs wouldn't touch. Buzz forced in some kids that threatened NCAA investigations on academic grounds,and if you couple that with the way the sexual assault case was handle you could forgive the university for thinking perhaps Buzz didn't have the universities best interests at heart.
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I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??
Who has been denied admission?
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Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.
Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?
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Exactly, chickadee. It was the point of my OP.
Steve Lavin made 4 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 in his first 6 years at UCLA and always seemed to be on the verge of being fired for failing to contend for conference titles. When he finally did have that one losing season in Year 7, he was canned. Nowhere near an identical comparison - he actually outperformed Wojo for most of his time; he didn't just lose in Year 7, he crashed and burned by going 10-19 and I believe there were off-court issues too; and of course he was at a school that definitely considered itself a blueblood. Lavin's time at St. John's maybe was more kinda sorta similar to Wojo's at MU - he and the school did the ol' "parted ways" after a first-round NCAA loss ended Year 5.
If the Great Shaka Smart gets fired after this season at Texas, it actually would be pretty close; but that's a big "if."
Bruce Weber at Illinois? He accomplished more early with Self's recruits (Deron Williams, Dee Brown, James Augustine, Luther Head, Roger Powell, Jack Ingram - "slightly" better than what Buzz left Wojo!) but sputtered badly before he was fired. Not very similar at all, actually.
There might be other examples that better demonstrate a school firing a coach with Wojo's resume. I'd welcome an example or 3.
I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.
A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.
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I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.
Largely because of institutional control problems that you casually dismiss as part of your Buzz Williams apology tour.
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Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.
Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?
That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.
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Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.
Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?
Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.
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I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.
A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.
Gotta admit, if Wojo wins the Big 10 twice at MU, I will be pretty damn impressed. Hell, that might even be statue worthy.
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That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.
In the six years before Crean took over, we had been to 4 NCAA tournaments with 3 tournament wins and reached an NIT final in one of the other two years. That looks a lot like his tenure if you ask me. Deane's recruiting had slipped and I had no problem with his being dismissed, and Crean was a definite upgrade, but we were a good program at the time. The thing is, other than Majerus/Dukiet stretch, we have been a very good program since the 60s.
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My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet. This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago. They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend. Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.
If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come. That is what I am hoping for. A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope. It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen. I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either. While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.
I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.
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My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet. This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago. They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend. Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.
If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come. That is what I am hoping for. A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope. It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen. I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either. While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.
I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.
Super fair, CTW.
I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.
Crean built up IU from the ashes and went to two straight S16s with a team that included two top-5 NBA draft picks. When he followed that by going 17-15 and 20-14 the next two seasons, IU movers and shakers were looking for an excuse to fire him. He was on the extreme hot seat going into the next year, but won the Big14 and reached the S16 again. That bought him another season, which also let the $$ of his buyout go down. When he fell to 10th place the following year, there was little doubt he'd be canned. 3 out of his last 4 years very disappointing - I know you don't like the word "trajectory," but it's a real concept. A program has to look like it's progressing. And again, Indiana is considered a blueblood. So all kinds of differences in the situation.
You also didn't answer my question about whether I remembered correctly about you wanting Wojo fired after last season (or maybe even after the 2017-18 season).
Has anyone gone back and actually looked at Crean's record? I have and if you take 2003 out of the equation and it's a pedestrian at best outcome at least when compared to what is apparently the firable level that Wojo is achieving right now. Yes, Crean had some bad injury luck with DJ and Jerel but he missed the NCAA tournament 4 out of 6 years when MU was in CUSA and then 3 out of his 5 tournament teams were one and done.
Crean had 9 seasons at MU and Wojo is on season 6......so if Wojo gets a Round 2 game and a Final Four run in the next 3 seasons we're all good on Wojo?
Agree with all of this, though I'm not sure it's fair to say, "Take away the FF season and ... " You can't take it away. It was a magical season, and Crean deserves a ton of credit for it.
But I absolutely do get what you are saying. He wasn't able to parlay that into anything even though he still had two future NBA players and some good supporting players on his roster. And in his first season with Wade, a HoFer, he had lost to a 12-seed in the NCAA tourney.
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I mean sure..it's reasonable, but that says more about the current admin's expectations then anything else if you ask me. NOT saying "win at all costs", but denying kids admission that weren't denied previously seems narrow minded, doesn't it?? Shouldn't it be about helping them, and giving them a chance??
End of the day you want same results as Crean and Buzz and you admit the standards and restrictions exist on recruiting, yet you still demand the same results.
Cool. Totally unreasonable, but cool...in your mind. What am I missing?
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I mean Crean was fired by Indiana after going to three sweet 16's(4 NCAA tourneys) and winning the Big 10 twice.
A lot of you would want a statue of Wojo inside the AL if he did that at MU.
And they hit a homer with Archie (allegedly) who they want to fire now. Be careful what you wish for
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Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.
And you continue to ignore that restrictions were put in place and yet you keep making these comparisons.
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That's a pretty dumb take since MU was not a great program when crean took over.
This right here is a reflection of why expectations on this board are so out of whack.....Crean didn't "save" MU, it was a solid program when he took over. Did he make more out of it than it was, yes I think he did especially getting MU into the Big East, but let's not pretend that somehow Crean saved the day. Buzz's performance was extraordinary and set expectations very high which is fine but Wojo isn't exactly crapping the bed either when it compares to historical performances at MU.
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Crean won a conference Championship and went to the Final Four by year 5. By year 5 Buzz had won a conference championship, been to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and made the tourney 4 out of 5 years. Wojo is in year 6 and he has...………………?? Fill in the blank.
Got it so as long as your success is front loaded you are fine with it.
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This right here is a reflection of why expectations on this board are so out of whack.....Crean didn't "save" MU, it was a solid program when he took over. Did he make more out of it than it was, yes I think he did especially getting MU into the Big East, but let's not pretend that somehow Crean saved the day. Buzz's performance was extraordinary and set expectations very high which is fine but Wojo isn't exactly crapping the bed either when it compares to historical performances at MU.
When Crean took over, the program was just three years removed from winning the CUSA tournament (which meant something back then), and getting upset in the first round of the NCAAs (7/10 game v. Providence).
It was two years removed from an NIT appearance where we lost at Minnesota by two in the game deciding who went to NYC. Deane's last season was a disasterous crap show.
But the program was fine. It was especially fine when you consider where it was a decade earlier when we truly were on the edge of becoming Loyola.
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Wojo is Crean without the final 4. Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in. Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in. Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4. Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four. Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes. He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team. IU called and he jumped.
Listen to Buzz's press conference. He respects Crean. Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived. He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success. The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left. Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.
Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success. It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games. But he has won just fine in years 2-6. He has a great class coming in. He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.
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Super fair, CTW.
Crean built up IU from the ashes and went to two straight S16s with a team that included two top-5 NBA draft picks. When he followed that by going 17-15 and 20-14 the next two seasons, IU movers and shakers were looking for an excuse to fire him. He was on the extreme hot seat going into the next year, but won the Big14 and reached the S16 again. That bought him another season, which also let the $$ of his buyout go down. When he fell to 10th place the following year, there was little doubt he'd be canned. 3 out of his last 4 years very disappointing - I know you don't like the word "trajectory," but it's a real concept. A program has to look like it's progressing. And again, Indiana is considered a blueblood. So all kinds of differences in the situation.
You also didn't answer my question about whether I remembered correctly about you wanting Wojo fired after last season (or maybe even after the 2017-18 season).
Agree with all of this, though I'm not sure it's fair to say, "Take away the FF season and ... " You can't take it away. It was a magical season, and Crean deserves a ton of credit for it.
But I absolutely do get what you are saying. He wasn't able to parlay that into anything even though he still had two future NBA players and some good supporting players on his roster. And in his first season with Wade, a HoFer, he had lost to a 12-seed in the NCAA tourney.
Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.
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Wojo is Crean without the final 4. Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in. Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in. Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4. Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four. Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes. He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team. IU called and he jumped.
Listen to Buzz's press conference. He respects Crean. Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived. He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success. The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left. Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.
Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success. It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games. But he has won just fine in years 2-6. He has a great class coming in. He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.
Your reasonable posts have made me soften my feelings toward Wojo.
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Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.
Good thing he wasn't fired.
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Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.
Thank you for your honest answer. You have, on multiple occasions in prior years, said you wanted him fired. Now, you're begrudgingly willing to give him a little more slack. Duly noted.
Wojo is Crean without the final 4. Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in. Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in. Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4. Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four. Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes. He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team. IU called and he jumped.
Listen to Buzz's press conference. He respects Crean. Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived. He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success. The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left. Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.
Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success. It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games. But he has won just fine in years 2-6. He has a great class coming in. He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.
Superbly stated, tower.
Wojo has not been a "failure." He has not succeeded as much as most of us would like. The jury is still out. I am hopeful.
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A strong finish this year with a couple tournament wins will definitely soften the Nojos. At this time next year we may be laughing about threads like this.
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A strong finish this year with a couple tournament wins will definitely soften the Nojos. At this time next year we may be laughing about threads like this.
The most frustrating thing is I highly doubt that. Let's say Wojo finishes 3rd in conference on a 11-7 record and makes it to the S16 this season.....as soon as we lose a game we shouldn't next year or lose more than one game in a row the nay sayers will be right back.
There is a cottage industry within Scoop built around being perpetually aggrieved.
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The most frustrating thing is I highly doubt that. Let's say Wojo finishes 3rd in conference on a 11-7 record and makes it to the S16 this season.....as soon as we lose a game we shouldn't next year or lose more than one game in a row the nay sayers will be right back.
There is a cottage industry within Scoop built around being perpetually aggrieved.
This. Totally this.
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My problem with Wojo thus far is not specifically the lack of NCAA success, its that he hasn't had a team that I thought could potentially win a couple games in the NCAA tournament yet. This team doesn't look like a team that could win more than 1 NCAA game at this point in time, but they didn't look like a team that could win any NCAA tournament games 2 or 3 weeks ago. They are improving and it certainly could be by the time the tournament rolls around I'll have hope they can make the second weekend. Last year at this time I was sure we could do real damage in the tournament but by the time it started, I thought we'd be lucky to win one.
If we are a top 20-ish team with some consistency (meaning more often than not), the NCAA wins and Big East championship chances will come. That is what I am hoping for. A team like that will surprise some years and disappoint others, but will give you hope. It is weird that after almost 6 seasons I don't know if Wojo is a guy that can make that happen. I'm not sure he can but I'm not sure he can't either. While we fight about it on this board, this is one of those cases where I can see both sides of the argument.
I had a solid opinion one way or the other about every one of our other coaches by year 5.
Very good post, bolded crystalizing current reality well, too.
I feel this season is Wojo's best coaching job since arriving at MU. He's exceeding my pre-season expectations. As a result, I can see validity to the ProJo's argument(s) for Wojo.
Would be GREAT if we can make a little run in Big East tournament to semifinals, and then win a game or two in NCAA - this would really get the monkey off Wojo's back.
I don't have high hopes for next season, but if Wojo can get us some March success this year that buys a bit more goodwill/patience.
This all being said, I do think it is going to take Wojo landing the best talent at MU since Al for us to have hopes of being a Sweet 16 caliber program.
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Since 1936, Villanova MBB has had 5 head coaches.
In the 100 year history of its program, Villanova has had 8 head coaches.
Carry on.
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Wojo is Crean without the final 4. Crean took over a program that had a bad year and a terrible recruiting class coming in. Wojo took over a program after a bad year with a terrible recruiting class coming in. Crean got a partial qualifier who turned out to be one of the top players of all time and parlayed it into a final 4. Kudos and huzzahs and yes, I cried when we made the final four. Crean could not capitalize on the final 4, failing to string together consecutive decent classes. He won one tourney game in 9 years without Wade on his team. IU called and he jumped.
Listen to Buzz's press conference. He respects Crean. Buzz had no recruiting contacts in the midwest when he arrived. He knew the JUCO's and that was the bedrock of his success. The rules changed, and being Buzz, he analyzed everything to the NTH degree and left. Like Al, he saw the changes coming and did not know if he could still be successful at MU.
Wojo came in with a powerpoint and promised no cheating and laid out a vision for long term success. It has taken longer than most wanted and he needs to win some tourney games. But he has won just fine in years 2-6. He has a great class coming in. He is still a young head coach and continuing to learn.
That Ky. win to land in the Final 4 was a great win, one of the best in MU history. It had me near tears also.
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When Crean took over, the program was just three years removed from winning the CUSA tournament (which meant something back then), and getting upset in the first round of the NCAAs (7/10 game v. Providence).
It was two years removed from an NIT appearance where we lost at Minnesota by two in the game deciding who went to NYC. Deane's last season was a disasterous crap show.
But the program was fine. It was especially fine when you consider where it was a decade earlier when we truly were on the edge of becoming Loyola.
Recruiting in the last few years of Deane was a nightmare
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Yes, I wanted him fired...But this recruiting class has pulled me back in..for now.
Didn’t you say you never wanted us to lose, but you wanted him fired. Usually those don’t go well together. What am I missing?
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Recruiting in the last few years of Deane was a nightmare
Right. I know. I'm not saying things were great, but the overall program was fine. Nothing that a new coach couldn't come in and fix.
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Your reasonable posts have made me soften my feelings toward Wojo.
I actually agree with this!
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I actually agree with this!
I am sure it has nothing to do with you looking like a fool months and weeks ago with your predictions....same for Sultan. Now you see some light? LOL
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I am sure it has nothing to do with you looking like a fool months and weeks ago with your predictions....same for Sultan. Now you see some light? LOL
Thought you blocked me?
Maybe your imaginary good friend WJ shared my post!
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Since 1936, Villanova MBB has had 5 head coaches.
In the 100 year history of its program, Villanova has had 8 head coaches.
Carry on.
Stability matters. Some people just do not get it here.
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Thought you blocked me?
Maybe your imaginary good friend WJ shared my post!
Lol
The guy is batcrap!
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Stability matters. Some people just do not get it here.
Stability however does not guarantee a damn thing. Stability isn't some magic potion that guarantees success, the longer you stay somewhere. Look hw many Coaches in sports history have stayed somewhere for a long time, and never tasted much success.
Just one example...what has Clemson gotten from Brad Brownell being in his 10th year?? 2 NCAA appearances(one Sweet 16) and 3 NIT bids. Yeah, I'm thinking stability doesn't matter much in that instance.
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Stability however does not guarantee a damn thing. Stability isn't some magic potion that guarantees success, the longer you stay somewhere. Look hw many Coaches in sports history have stayed somewhere for a long time, and never tasted much success.
Just one example...what has Clemson gotten from Brad Brownell being in his 10th year?? 2 NCAA appearances(one Sweet 16) and 3 NIT bids. Yeah, I'm thinking stability doesn't matter much in that instance.
Did someone say it guaranteed something?
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Stability matters.
Hoopaloop talking about stability.
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When Crean took over, the program was just three years removed from winning the CUSA tournament (which meant something back then), and getting upset in the first round of the NCAAs (7/10 game v. Providence).
It was two years removed from an NIT appearance where we lost at Minnesota by two in the game deciding who went to NYC. Deane's last season was a disasterous crap show.
But the program was fine. It was especially fine when you consider where it was a decade earlier when we truly were on the edge of becoming Loyola.
False. Conference USA was formed in 1995 and was panned as a conference too big and two spread out to be good. In 1997, two years into the new league, 4 teams made the tournament and MU only made it because we had a good run in the CUSA tournament. Had they not won only three teams would have made it. No one cared.
In 1996, MU lost in the conference finals but was an at large. Deane had an at large selection and conf championship followed NCAA only because we won the championship to no selection. Record was 10-4, 9-5, 8-8, and 6-10.
Conference USA didn’t really become relevant until they signed an eight year deal with ESPN in 2000. Calipari joined in 2000 and Pitino joined in 2001 and CUSA had a great group of coaches in Crean, Huggy, Pitino, and Calipari.
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False. Conference USA was formed in 1995 and was panned as a conference too big and two spread out to be good. In 1997, two years into the new league, 4 teams made the tournament and MU only made it because we had a good run in the CUSA tournament. Had they not won only three teams would have made it. No one cared.
In 1996, MU lost in the conference finals but was an at large. Deane had an at large selection and conf championship followed NCAA only because we won the championship to no selection. Record was 10-4, 9-5, 8-8, and 6-10.
Conference USA didn’t really become relevant until they signed an eight year deal with ESPN in 2000. Calipari joined in 2000 and Pitino joined in 2001 and CUSA had a great group of coaches in Crean, Huggy, Pitino, and Calipari.
Sorry...but what is false? I simply meant it was better then than it is now. Didn’t say it was at its peak.
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Sorry...but what is false? I simply meant it was better then than it is now. Didn’t say it was at its peak.
That in 1997 it meant something. KenPom doesn’t go back to 1997 but even in its peak years it only hit the 7th best conference.
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That in 1997 it meant something. KenPom doesn’t go back to 1997 but even in its peak years it only hit the 7th best conference.
Ok. So it meant something more than now. Thanks for the confirmation.
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No way you fire WOJO!
Good, decent, hard working man.
Superb resume.
Not cheating.
Good if not great recruiter.
Arguably one of the 30 best coaches in the country today based upon team performance.
Clearly still learning - he does make game time mistakes but he is improving.
Extremely well connected!
I would trust this man with my son.
Try to find his equal replacement considering ALL of his qualities. Now add what you lose when a coach leaves. We should stand solidly behind this coach until he does something that proves that position wrong.
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Thought you blocked me?
Maybe your imaginary good friend WJ shared my post!
Nope, blocked some others but not you...reading about cancer and stuff from you is the highlight of my day.
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This.
When was the last time a major program fired a coach who has performed as good as or better than Wojo?
I am not asking rhetorically; if anyone knows, I would like to hear it.
I would say UCLA.
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if Wojo has high critical thinking abilities, his learning will happen quickly.
If he is low on the critical thinking scale, he will slowly learn from his mistakes and evolve as a good coach.
I wonder if assessments are part of the selection process for our HC. They should be.
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if Wojo has high critical thinking abilities, his learning will happen quickly.
If he is low on the critical thinking scale, he will slowly learn from his mistakes and evolve as a good coach.
I wonder if assessments are part of the selection process for our HC. They should be.
I guess his critical thinking must have been pretty high on the scale when the team was 23-4 last year.
Then I guess it must have been pretty low on the scale when the team went 1-6 at the end of the season.
Or maybe it had nothing to do with his critical thinking and more to do with the health and fitness of his top players.
When Sam and Markus were relatively healthy, and Joey was fairly fresh, the team was 23-4
When Sam and Markus were clearly affected by injury and Joey was clearly worn down, the team went 1-6.
Occam's razor anyone??
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I guess his critical thinking must have been pretty high on the scale when the team was 23-4 last year.
Then I guess it must have been pretty low on the scale when the team went 1-6 at the end of the season.
Or maybe it had nothing to do with his critical thinking and more to do with the health and fitness of his top players.
When Sam and Markus were relatively healthy, and Joey was fairly fresh, the team was 23-4
When Sam and Markus were clearly affected by injury and Joey was clearly worn down, the team went 1-6.
Occam's razor anyone??
OK
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OK
I put it more on Markus being hurt and the white stiffs having mailed it in.
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Unnecessary.
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Unnecessary.
Totally.....
Sam was a freakin warrior for Marquette and Joey was just an immature freshman.
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Totally.....
Sam was a freakin warrior for Marquette and Joey was just an immature freshman.
Sam sucked defensively, who does he guard over the last 6 games without being a complete turnstile??
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Sam sucked defensively, who does he guard over the last 6 games without being a complete turnstile??
Sam was a good defender, individually and from a team perspective. Also rebounded well for his position.
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Ners is correct, Sam was a very sound defender. Struggled against ultra quick wings but always knew where to be and never lost his man.
Joey was not a good defender but was a freshman. Freshman often struggle on defense and improve as they age.
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Sam sucked defensively, who does he guard over the last 6 games without being a complete turnstile??
The guy was battling on a hip that required surgery after the season was over.
And people wonder why.....
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I would say UCLA.
I mentioned Lavin earlier in this thread. I don't think their situations were very similar, and UCLA still very much thought of itself as a blueblood.
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Sam sucked defensively, who does he guard over the last 6 games without being a complete turnstile??
This is hogwash. Sam did not suck defensively. There were several games last year where Sam had the assignment of the other teams offensive leader.
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WhoaJoe
You are so right about Sam. Thanks for posting.
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WhoaJoe
You are so right about Sam. Thanks for posting.
It won't work.
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WhoaJoe
You are so right about Sam. Thanks for posting.
Totally agree that WhoaJoe is doing great work here.
Hard to believe Scoop even existed before he showed up out of nowhere.
It's 10:55 eastern time, meaning he still has an hour and 5 minutes to post 841 more times today to tie the record he set yesterday. Fingers crossed that he can do it!
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82
I think it is important to acknowledge people that excel in their work and WhoaJoe is an example for all of us. He is a 24/7 Scooper, informed on virtually every topic, witty, funny, edgy and he is not Chico’s. Actually, I feel badly for Jams because he created a monster and this is going to be tough to top down the road.
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Goose
He is the Markus Howard of Scoop.
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real 83
Aside from volume shooter, I think WhoaJoe is a more pure shooter than Markus. What did we do before his arrival?
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Stop that Goose.
The thought of that is too scary for me.
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Let's ask this a different way, because I think this is what is at the crux of this discussion for a vast majority. Hypothetically, if we were guaranteed this recruiting class would stay, and all the current players would stay, would you then be okay going with someone else??
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Let's ask this a different way, because I think this is what is at the crux of this discussion for a vast majority. Hypothetically, if we were guaranteed this recruiting class would stay, and all the current players would stay, would you then be okay going with someone else??
Well, if unicorns and Nessie had a love child that coached like a hybrid of Izzo, K, Boeheim, Wooden, and Al, then I would think about it.
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Let's ask this a different way, because I think this is what is at the crux of this discussion for a vast majority. Hypothetically, if we were guaranteed this recruiting class would stay, and all the current players would stay, would you then be okay going with someone else??
Marquette isn't in a position to fire a coach coming off a tournament appearance without extenuating off the court circumstances. We're not at that level and never will be, and that's okay.
Even if Wojo hadn't gotten a good, and still possibly great, recruiting class, you'd still have to give him next year. It's not a good look for potential candidates down the line to fire him after getting what likely will be a single digit seed in the tournament.
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82
I think it is important to acknowledge people that excel in their work and WhoaJoe is an example for all of us. He is a 24/7 Scooper, informed on virtually every topic, witty, funny, edgy and he is not Chico’s. Actually, I feel badly for Jams because he created a monster and this is going to be tough to top down the road.
I think it is great. The fact so many think he is me and heads explode only make me laugh more. No need to top him, I salute him and tip my cap to him.
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Let's ask this a different way, because I think this is what is at the crux of this discussion for a vast majority. Hypothetically, if we were guaranteed this recruiting class would stay, and all the current players would stay, would you then be okay going with someone else??
Guru, you still haven’t answered.....why are you expecting Crean / Buzz results when they did not have the recruiting or academic restrictions Wojo has?
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Let's ask this a different way, because I think this is what is at the crux of this discussion for a vast majority. Hypothetically, if we were guaranteed this recruiting class would stay, and all the current players would stay, would you then be okay going with someone else??
Hypothetically, even though I really, really love my wife, if Scarlett Johansson insisted upon sleeping with me, I'd have to seriously consider it. And here's the great guy I am: I'd invite my wife to join us!
Oh, and that's whether or not the recruiting class chooses to stay at Marquette.
Otherwise, what tower and Orange Soda say.
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What’s truly is, with his son (allegedly) as an MU student, can we assume he’s active on the board? It’s a shame for a young man to see his father’s mental illness laid bare.
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Outstanding article on the unmitigated disaster that is Wake Forest basketball, which not all that long ago was one of the top programs in the ACC:
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article239954898.html?
Wojo is not mentioned in the article, but I am guessing a guy with his resume would be VERY well-received by the folks there.
I don't think I'd leave a great situation like Marquette for a dumpster fire like Wake Forest, but who knows if he would want to get back into the ACC, just might like a change, etc.
Wake seems borderline hopeless, but history is filled with competitive coaches believing that they can be the answer in such situations.
I know there are Scoopers who would be delighted if Wojo caps a good season with a couple of NCAA tourney wins and then bolts to a school like Wake (or any school).
I know I'd be curious to see what P6 coaches with recent histories of NCAA tournament successes would be lining up for our job.
All conjecture, I know, but I still find it interesting.
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82,
That is a cautionary tale. Things can go drastically wrong searching for the “perfect” coach.
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82,
That is a cautionary tale. Things can go drastically wrong searching for the “perfect” coach.
Yessir, SM.
The only way we'll find the perfect coach is if we hire the guy at Belmont Abbey -- and even then, only if he goes 13-39 his last two seasons there.
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82,
That is a cautionary tale. Things can go drastically wrong searching for the “perfect” coach.
The cautionary tale wasn't hiring Danny Manning. Wake's problem was that they fired Dino Gaudio after he lead them to two NCAA in the three seasons following Prosser's death. They inexplicably hired Jeff Bzdelik, who had been terrible at Colorado, and he promptly lead them to a 8-24 record in his first year.
https://gazette.com/sports/ramsey-jeff-bzdelik-should-never-have-been-a-college-coach/article_fc589ff9-39f0-5b75-ad09-c49bf26929fd.html
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The cautionary tale wasn't hiring Danny Manning. Wake's problem was that they fired Dino Gaudio after he lead them to two NCAA in the three seasons following Prosser's death. They inexplicably hired Jeff Bzdelik, who had been terrible at Colorado, and he promptly lead them to a 8-24 record in his first year.
https://gazette.com/sports/ramsey-jeff-bzdelik-should-never-have-been-a-college-coach/article_fc589ff9-39f0-5b75-ad09-c49bf26929fd.html
Right, and that's what I assumed Shooter meant.
Gaudio did have some off-the-court problems on his watch, though.
The right coach probably can rebuild that program. Good history, in ACC, good facilities, etc.
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Nm
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Yessir, SM.
The only way we'll find the perfect coach is if we hire the guy at Belmont Abbey -- and even then, only if he goes 13-39 his last two seasons there.
LOL Imagine how ape crap certain members of this board would go if we hired "Al" today.
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LOL Imagine how ape crap certain members of this board would go if we hired "Al" today.
This kind of hits on a conversation I was having with some "insiders" today and I realized that every MU coach until Wojo was a character and in someway charismatic. Wojo to date has been very vanilla(literal and figural) but I wonder if that really hurts him when fans, especially casual ones, are evaluating him. We can say time and again that his performance to date has been as good or better than coaches X, Y, and Z but there is nothing "fun" to attach to Wojo right now.
"When I was losing they called me nuts, when I was winning they called me eccentric"
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This kind of hits on a conversation I was having with some "insiders" today and I realized that every MU coach until Wojo was a character and in someway charismatic. Wojo to date has been very vanilla(literal and figural) but I wonder if that really hurts him when fans, especially casual ones, are evaluating him. We can say time and again that his performance to date has been as good or better than coaches X, Y, and Z but there is nothing "fun" to attach to Wojo right now.
"When I was losing they called me nuts, when I was winning they called me eccentric"
I was talking more about hiring a guy with a 13-39 record.
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LOL Imagine how ape crap certain members of this board would go if we hired "Al" today.
They would still find a way to convince themselves that he would be better than Wojo. Their keen powers of observation and evaluation would allow them to see the potential greatness in Al despite his record.
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Wojo is no Al in many ways. Al would not be hired today even if his record was reversed. Al stretched the envelope beyond today`s rules. That is one of many reasons he is remembered. They do not mint Al's anymore and it is our loss.
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Wojo is no Al in many ways. Al would not be hired today even if his record was reversed. Al stretched the envelope beyond today`s rules. That is one of many reasons he is remembered. They do not mint Al's anymore and it is our loss.
Pearl, Sampson, Laary Brown, plenty of others who pushed the envelope have gotten hired.
It's his resume, not his personality, that would keep him from being hired today.
He was 13-39 his last two years at Belmont Abbey. If he was even brought in for an interview, Scoop would explode.
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Beilein is available.
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This kind of hits on a conversation I was having with some "insiders" today and I realized that every MU coach until Wojo was a character and in someway charismatic. Wojo to date has been very vanilla(literal and figural) but I wonder if that really hurts him when fans, especially casual ones, are evaluating him. We can say time and again that his performance to date has been as good or better than coaches X, Y, and Z but there is nothing "fun" to attach to Wojo right now.
"When I was losing they called me nuts, when I was winning they called me eccentric"
Crean was charasmatic?
The guy was a dripping douche with zero social skills n even less of a sense if humor.
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The guy was a dripping douche with zero social skills n even less of a sense if humor.
Thankfully we have an expert on the subject
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Crean was charasmatic?
The guy was a dripping douche with zero social skills n even less of a sense if humor.
As a student, Crean stopped me on my way to class one day and asked me if I was excited about the team and the upcoming season. I had a few other friends with the same experience. He also made a point to tell BC staff to let students in early for big games when lines were long and temperatures were low.
I hate the way he left, but when he was at MU, I think he was a great representative of the program on campus. I was a huge fan of his before he bailed to IU. Even now, I still have plenty of positive memories of his interactions with the student section and with individual students.
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As a student, Crean stopped me on my way to class one day and asked me if I was excited about the team and the upcoming season. I had a few other friends with the same experience. He also made a point to tell BC staff to let students in early for big games when lines were long and temperatures were low.
I hate the way he left, but when he was at MU, I think he was a great representative of the program on campus. I was a huge fan of his before he bailed to IU. Even now, I still have plenty of positive memories of his interactions with the student section and with individual students.
I have heard similar things, ski. Glad to hear our coach helped you have a positive experience, and I hope Wojo has done similar stuff during his time at MU.
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As a student, Crean stopped me on my way to class one day and asked me if I was excited about the team and the upcoming season. I had a few other friends with the same experience. He also made a point to tell BC staff to let students in early for big games when lines were long and temperatures were low.
I remember the Pitt game in 2006 when it was subzero wind chills, and the Admirals had a game that afternoon. Somehow they managed to get us in the building as the Ads game was letting out, and we were sitting there watching them put the floor down.
He also stopped by the line quite often without the marketing people on his way to campus before big games.
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Crean was charasmatic?
The guy was a dripping douche with zero social skills n even less of a sense if humor.
TallTitan and I as we were walking back from the 26th Street bus stop. TallTitan was carrying a Xbox 360 under his arm, a Lexus pulls up beside us on Wisconsin Avenue and asks if we want a ride. It was Crean, right after he was going through his back problems.
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Beilein is available.
nope-cleveland is looking at his popcorn making skills, pouring beers, etc
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LOL Imagine how ape crap certain members of this board would go if we hired "Al" today.
They would be celebrating that he was finally leaving on today's date in 1977, that is for sure. Just a reminder of what happened 43 years ago today:
On this date in 1977, in the final home game of Al’s career, his 9th ranked Warriors fell 75-64 to the Wichita State Shockers for the team’s third straight defeat, all at home, to bring Marquette's record to a rather pedestrian 16-6.
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They would be celebrating that he was finally leaving on today's date in 1977, that is for sure. Just a reminder of what happened 43 years ago today:
On this date in 1977, in the final home game of Al’s career, his 9th ranked Warriors fell 75-64 to the Wichita State Shockers for the team’s third straight defeat, all at home, to bring Marquette's record to a rather pedestrian 16-6.
And then the Warriors went on to win 9 of the next 10 including the National Championship. Are we to believe Wojo's Eagles are on that course?
16-6 was the low point of the season for those Warriors, 16-6 may well have been the high point for Wojo's 2020 Eagles
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And then the Warriors went on to win 9 of the next 10 including the National Championship. Are we to believe Wojo's Eagles are on that course?
16-6 was the low point of the season for those Warriors, 16-6 may well have been the high point for Wojo's 2020 Eagles
How dare you blaspheme Wojo like that. There are all sorts of exc...er...reasons for this years Warriors being 17-7.
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And then the Warriors went on to win 9 of the next 10 including the National Championship. Are we to believe Wojo's Eagles are on that course?
16-6 was the low point of the season for those Warriors, 16-6 may well have been the high point for Wojo's 2020 Eagles
Thanks for pointing out that we just don't know yet and to make leaping judgements at this point would be asinine.
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Crean sucks
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Crean sucks
Beat Auburn. Hire crean after wojo to wake
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Al would win the press conference tho and would be a very well known former NBA player. Like hiring Patrick Beverly if he came with Coach K’s blessing.
Wojo’s lack of personality prevents fans from getting a glimpse into who he really is, leaves them wondering: is this guy very bright?
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And then the Warriors went on to win 9 of the next 10 including the National Championship. Are we to believe Wojo's Eagles are on that course?
16-6 was the low point of the season for those Warriors, 16-6 may well have been the high point for Wojo's 2020 Eagles
If he did win the championship, you'd still be unhappy....
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Coach takes over program that didn't go to NCAA or NIT previous year.
++ First season: 13-19.
++ Second season: 20-13, no postseason.
++ Third season: 19-13; NCAA 10th seed, first-round loss.
++ Fourth season: 21-14; NIT, third-round loss.
++ Fifth season: 24-10; conference runner-up after leading race but falling apart late due to intra-team squabbling; NCAA 5th seed, first-round loss.
++ Sixth season: 16-6 about 2/3 of the way through season; NCAA bid likely.
++ Top-10 recruiting class signed for his 7th season.
++ Numerous transfers out, including 3 high-major caliber players.
++ Several good transfers in, though arguably none the caliber of the 3 top players who transferred out.
++ Under his watch, team never has had a hint of NCAA rules violations or scrapes with the law.
Questions:
Realistically, would any school fire that coach?
If so, would it be a blueblood?
Would the AD/president/board of any non-blueblood school fire that coach?
I'll hang up and listen.
Before I say anything, I will first say that I do not think Wojo should be fired. But selective facts allow you to build whatever narrative you want. For example:
-Coach takes over program that was regularly playing into 2nd weekend in NCAA tournament. In five seasons:
-Zero NCAA tournament wins
- Zero conference championships
- 43-47 Big East record
Again, I am not saying Wojo should be fired. I purposely cherry picked stats.
I think MU has been slightly disappointing under Wojo, certainly below the historical program average. I'm willing to give him a few more seasons, but patience won't last forever. Deep runs in March will make everything better.
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If he did win the championship, you'd still be unhappy....
You say that as if he's done anything this point to warrant genuine happiness? The best thing we have from the Wojo era is a court storm in January and a couple blips in and out of the rankings.
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You say that as if he's done anything this point to warrant genuine happiness? The best thing we have from the Wojo era is a court storm in January and a couple blips in and out of the rankings.
The best thing we have from Wojo are the past two years of a top 30 caliber team. If we're consistently a top 30 team, we're all good. He's hit an acceptable performance level, now he needs to maintain/improve it.
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The best thing we have from Wojo are the past two years of a top 30 caliber team. If we're consistently a top 30 team, we're all good. He's hit an acceptable performance level, now he needs to maintain/improve it.
You're the definition of someone that has accepted mediocrity. Congratulations.
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You say that as if he's done anything this point to warrant genuine happiness? The best thing we have from the Wojo era is a court storm in January and a couple blips in and out of the rankings.
Anyone who ties happiness to the success of a college basketball team needs to reprioritize their life.
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You're the definition of someone that has accepted mediocrity. Congratulations.
How many programs are consistantly top 30? Guess 98% of teams are mediocre. Keep crying 2 cent pitcher
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You're the definition of someone that has accepted mediocrity. Congratulations.
A program that is a 7 seed or better in the tournament every year is mediocre? Good to know.
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A program that is a 7 seed or better in the tournament every year is mediocre? Good to know.
Every year? Fact check?? Wojo has brought a seed greater than a 7 exactly once. And that went great!
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Every year? Fact check?? Wojo has brought a seed greater than a 7 exactly once. And that went great!
I believe BM1090 was referring to a hypothetical team that finished a 7 seed or higher every year. Your response was to say it was the definition of mediocrity. I think most would assume you were referring to BM1090's hypothetical team.
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I believe BM1090 was referring to a hypothetical team that finished a 7 seed or higher every year. Your response was to say it was the definition of mediocrity. I think most would assume you were referring to BM1090's hypothetical team.
The hypothetical case is where we do our best work.
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I believe BM1090 was referring to a hypothetical team that finished a 7 seed or higher every year. Your response was to say it was the definition of mediocrity. I think most would assume you were referring to BM1090's hypothetical team.
First of all 4*7 is 28, not 30. So BM is already taking liberties there. Second of all, we are teetering on the very edge of this "hypothetical" top 30 thing that apparently equivocates success now. We have done it once in Wojo's 6 year tenure. Whether we get a greater than 7 seed this year, Wojo's 6th year, is very much in jeopardy. And if we do, it will be at the bottom of this "top 30" range (i.e. a 6 or 7 seed).
Wojo has built nothing yet. Won nothing yet. Done nothing yet. What can we hang our hats on? This is close to 2 full recruiting cycles and everyone here is chomping at the bit to give him a 3rd. Jimmy Butler was a 2 star. Dwyane Wade was a 2 star. Jae Crowder - a JUCO unknown. It's about what you do with what you have.
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First of all 4*7 is 28, not 30. So BM is already taking liberties there. Second of all, we are teetering on the very edge of this "hypothetical" top 30 thing that apparently equivocates success now. We have done it once in Wojo's 6 year tenure. Whether we get a greater than 7 seed this year, Wojo's 6th year, is very much in jeopardy. And if we do, it will be at the bottom of this "top 30" range (i.e. a 6 or 7 seed).
Wojo has built nothing yet. Won nothing yet. Done nothing yet. What can we hang our hats on? This is close to 2 full recruiting cycles and everyone here is chomping at the bit to give him a 3rd. Jimmy Butler was a 2 star. Dwyane Wade was a 2 star. Jae Crowder - a JUCO unknown. It's about what you do with what you have.
Wow.
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Buzz could claim it was about second chances all he wanted, but it was about creating a recruiting advantage by going after kids that other programs wouldn't touch. Buzz forced in some kids that threatened NCAA investigations on academic grounds,and if you couple that with the way the sexual assault case was handle you could forgive the university for thinking perhaps Buzz didn't have the universities best interests at heart.
I think this is spot-on.
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I believe BM1090 was referring to a hypothetical team that finished a 7 seed or higher every year. Your response was to say it was the definition of mediocrity. I think most would assume you were referring to BM1090's hypothetical team.
Correct. And I'll even amend my statement to say a top 8 seed every year since I said top 30. The first few years of Wojo's tenure mean nothing in evaluating where we are at as a program *today*.
If, starting in 2018-19, we are a top 30 program annually, then that's a successful program. Barring a collapse this year, we will be a top 30 program over the past two years. That's fine. It's good, even.
I just find it odd that people want to hold Wojo's first year or two against him when it doesn't come close to showing what kind of program MU is in the present. You don't fire an employee who has shown solid to good performance for 4 years after deciding to stick with them during their learning curve.
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First of all 4*7 is 28, not 30. So BM is already taking liberties there. Second of all, we are teetering on the very edge of this "hypothetical" top 30 thing that apparently equivocates success now. We have done it once in Wojo's 6 year tenure. Whether we get a greater than 7 seed this year, Wojo's 6th year, is very much in jeopardy. And if we do, it will be at the bottom of this "top 30" range (i.e. a 6 or 7 seed).
Wojo has built nothing yet. Won nothing yet. Done nothing yet. What can we hang our hats on? This is close to 2 full recruiting cycles and everyone here is chomping at the bit to give him a 3rd. Jimmy Butler was a 2 star. Dwyane Wade was a 2 star. Jae Crowder - a JUCO unknown. It's about what you do with what you have.
I guess a top 7 seed is in "jeopardy" in the sense that we would li kely have to lose 4 of our next 5 games (all of which we are favored in) in order to not get a top 7 seed. If that does happen, my scale will quickly tip from sosojo towards nojo. Considering that we are 15-1 in non-Q1A games this season (and none of the remaining games are Q1A), I expect to win more than we lose.
Wojo has built something, it might not be everything we ever wanted, but its a fine first step as long as it is just a first step. As you correctly point out, Wojo is at the end of his second recruiting cycle. The second was a massive improvement on his first. I anticipate his third will continue that trend. The 2020 class on paper is a great start to that goal. If he doesn't get it done, he will be let go.
1 last thing, I'm not sure how you can categorize the JUCO player of the year as "a JUCO unknown." https://gomarquette.com/news/2010/4/14/JC_Player_Of_The_Year_Jae_Crowder_Inks_With_Marquette.aspx
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I just find it odd that people want to hold Wojo's first year or two against him when it doesn't come close to showing what kind of program MU is in the present. You don't fire an employee who has shown solid to good performance for 4 years after deciding to stick with them during their learning curve.
I just said the same thing in another thread. Sure it makes sense if you just want to compare Wojo's first five years to another coach's first five years, but I haven't the foggiest how it relates to future coaching decisions.
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Correct. And I'll even amend my statement to say a top 8 seed every year since I said top 30. The first few years of Wojo's tenure mean nothing in evaluating where we are at as a program *today*.
If, starting in 2018-19, we are a top 30 program annually, then that's a successful program. Barring a collapse this year, we will be a top 30 program over the past two years. That's fine. It's good, even.
I just find it odd that people want to hold Wojo's first year or two against him when it doesn't come close to showing what kind of program MU is in the present. You don't fire an employee who has shown solid to good performance for 4 years after deciding to stick with them during their learning curve.
Well he did inherit two NBA players plus another 4 Top 100 players and a transfer from Indiana. Maybe coach 'em up? #fullcupboard
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Well he did inherit two NBA players plus another 4 Top 100 players and a transfer from Indiana. Maybe coach 'em up? #fullcupboard
Seriously? 2 nba players? It only took Juan 6 years to get there, I'm sure he's the exact same player and it's not more like Buycks who developed after college. And Are you seriously touting top 100 players? Why don't you try fielding a team of Top 100 greats like Ed Morrow, Erik Williams, Matt Heldt, Jamail Jones and tell me all about how great top 100s always are, not to mention when they're injured like Duane and Fischer.
I'm far from the biggest Wojo fan but I hate this notion that top 100 is the be all end all especially when they're injured or underclassmen.
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I think we can all acknowledge Wojo is a recruiter first and foremost. His x's & o's leave a lot to be desired.
I'm curious to see how his offense looks next year without Howard. I don't have much faith. Our current offense is not pretty/sustainable to say the least.
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Seriously? 2 nba players? It only took Juan 6 years to get there, I'm sure he's the exact same player and it's not more like Buycks who developed after college. And Are you seriously touting top 100 players? Why don't you try fielding a team of Top 100 greats like Ed Morrow, Erik Williams, Matt Heldt, Jamail Jones and tell me all about how great top 100s always are, not to mention when they're injured like Duane and Fischer.
I'm far from the biggest Wojo fan but I hate this notion that top 100 is the be all end all especially when they're injured or underclassmen.
Well every Pro Jo says stick with the guy, he's got 3 Top 100s coming in next year...
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Well every Pro Jo says stick with the guy, he's got 3 Top 100s coming in next year...
I believe they say that due to the USA basketball pedigree in two of them and the McDonald's all American factor for one. And that it's his choice of top 100s not someone else's.
The last two USA basketball players seemed legit (Ellanson, Howard)
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I think we can all acknowledge Wojo is a recruiter first and foremost. His x's & o's leave a lot to be desired.
I'm curious to see how his offense looks next year without Howard. I don't have much faith. Our current offense is not pretty/sustainable to say the least.
It would be one thing if that was actually true. Stan Johnson is the big recruiter.
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I think we can all acknowledge Wojo is a recruiter first and foremost. His x's & o's leave a lot to be desired.
I'm curious to see how his offense looks next year without Howard. I don't have much faith. Our current offense is not pretty/sustainable to say the least.
Actually I think the offense will be fine next year. It’s all about the talent coming in. The offense may be just as good without a ball dominant shooting guard and more of a facilitator at point guard. This is not a knock on Howard. Love the kid. It will be different without him. But not worried about offense next year as long as the recruits are as talented as we hope and with potentially more talent coming on board.
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It would be one thing if that was actually true. Stan Johnson is the big recruiter.
How did Stan get here? And while we're at it, how did Dwayne Killings (Symir Torrence, Justin Lewis)? When you bring in top classes, the head coach gets credit because those guys work for him.
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I just said the same thing in another thread. Sure it makes sense if you just want to compare Wojo's first five years to another coach's first five years, but I haven't the foggiest how it relates to future coaching decisions.
Nor do you have the foggiest of what those future coaching decisions might be.
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Nor do you have the foggiest of what those future coaching decisions might be.
I'm really not sure what this is referencing. Are you saying I don't know who would be hired if Wojo were to leave or be fired? If so, yes, you are correct. I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I thought I would know.
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If MU loses 3rd straight today after being ranked, will the board self destruct??
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/PSxPL6jjDnpmM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a4916f7a668118e0f077c0f24d5fa9dc52e90580f&rid=giphy.gif)
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Figurin' veal find out soon 'nough, aina?
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If MU loses 3rd straight today after being ranked, will the board self destruct??
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/PSxPL6jjDnpmM/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a4916f7a668118e0f077c0f24d5fa9dc52e90580f&rid=giphy.gif)
Probably.