MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cheeks on January 13, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
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You know where I stand (a no vote), but when I see people actively wanting him fired (you know who you are) then I have to think some of you want us to miss this year's tournament to help satiate the means to the end. Making the tournament, in some eyes, just means another year.
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Absolutely not. In fact I would see making the tourney with this team (and at this 1-3 point) as a sign that he's progressing as a coach.
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Lol, its sad this question even needs to be asked.
I'll keep Wojo and his recruiting class. People that think MU can do considerably better than Wojo are delusional.
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Lol, its sad this question even needs to be asked.
I'll keep Wojo and his recruiting class. People that think MU can do considerably better than Wojo are delusional.
That's where I'm kind of at. Yea it's been frustrating.
But who is waiting in the wings that's going to be an automatic upgrade from Wojo? Nobody who wants Wojo fired even bothers to throw out any names.
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While I'm not a huge Wojo supporter as I feel he has not lived up to my expectations I do root for the team to succeed. If this team with Wojo at helm finds it's way into the NCAA's I think that would be sufficient proof for me that Wojo has made huge strides into becoming the coach we all want him to be.
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It will be interesting to see who will own the fact that there dislike of Wojo is stronger than their love of MU basketball.
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It will be interesting to see who will own the fact that there dislike of Wojo is stronger than their love of MU basketball.
Sometimes it seems like about 75% of the posters here are in that category. Sad.
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It did make my few days away easier.
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That's where I'm kind of at. Yea it's been frustrating.
But who is waiting in the wings that's going to be an automatic upgrade from Wojo? Nobody who wants Wojo fired even bothers to throw out any names.
Pitino was mentioned!
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Sometimes it seems like about 75% of the posters here are in that category. Sad.
Correction: 75% of posts, 8% of posters.
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Should have been another option that states "Want to miss tourney so I am proven right"
Unfortunate minority of posters here who would rather be right than Marquette win.
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What a dumb question. Anyone who cares more about the coach being fired than making the NCAA tournament has a screw loose.
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It will be interesting to see who will own the fact that there dislike of Wojo is stronger than their love of MU basketball.
I can't imagine a single person here feeling that way. This may be me projecting my own thoughts, but I'm assuming most people here that dislike Wojo only dislike him because they feel like he's not good for MU basketball. To assume any other reason for fans to dislike Wojo or any other coach is just intellectually dishonest.
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It will be interesting to see who will own the fact that there dislike of Wojo is stronger than their love of MU basketball.
Few will own up to this.
For the record, I voted no. But I have very little hopes we make the tournament based on the conference start.
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That's where I'm kind of at. Yea it's been frustrating.
But who is waiting in the wings that's going to be an automatic upgrade from Wojo? Nobody who wants Wojo fired even bothers to throw out any names.
haven't you heard? These are the candidates that are the current finalists and would take the job for $1 a year:
Coach K
Tom Izzo
Mark Few
Brad Stevens
Pop
Steve Kerr
Billy Donovan
Hologram Al McGuire
We had so many big names camping out in front of the Al the last time around certainly after firing Wojo we'll have even more.
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The fact that its even discussed should show why hes not the right person for the job.
If we can't make the tourney with an all american and greatest scorer in marquette history why would we think he is capable of coaching up any incoming class to march madness play level?
This was his year to make hay. It fell apart because he lost control of the locker room, or never had it in the first place.
I really hope marquette has the guts to can him if we no show the post season this year. But i seriously doubt they will unless he loses the commits or something crazy happens.
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The fact that its even discussed should show why hes not the right person for the job.
If we can't make the tourney with an all american and greatest scorer in marquette history why would we think he is capable of coaching up any incoming class to march madness play level?
This was his year to make hay. It fell apart because he lost control of the locker room, or never had it in the first place.
I really hope marquette has the guts to can him if we no show the post season this year. But i seriously doubt they will unless he loses the commits or something crazy happens.
Except they will make the tourney, soooooooo
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The 15% of you (so far) that voted for Sherman to burn everything down....how many of you are between ages of 45 and 54?
New study came out today.... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-13/middle-age-misery-peaks-at-age-of-47-2-economist-says
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The fact that its even discussed should show why hes not the right person for the job.
If we can't make the tourney with an all american and greatest scorer in marquette history why would we think he is capable of coaching up any incoming class to march madness play level?
This was his year to make hay. It fell apart because he lost control of the locker room, or never had it in the first place.
I really hope marquette has the guts to can him if we no show the post season this year. But i seriously doubt they will unless he loses the commits or something crazy happens.
You're in the 16% as of right now.....and stop with your nonsense, looking at your posts you have been anti-Wojo since the start, so don't begin to make it sound like year 5 may hay stuff.
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Question; in this scenario do we make the tournament and get humiliated in the first round again?
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Question; in this scenario do we make the tournament and get humiliated in the first round again?
Irrelevant. If we lost by 7 points the same exact people would bitch.
Simple question
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Irrelevant. If we lost by 7 points the same exact people would bitch.
Simple question
Very relevant and without that info I’ll abstain
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Few will own up to this.
For the record, I voted no. But I have very little hopes we make the tournament based on the conference start.
I think the delusional aspect of this is assuming that people who dislike Wojo as a coach would hope MU b-ball fails in any way. I think Coach Wojo leaves a lot to be desired and that there are far better all-around coaches out there who would love to be MU's coach. Now, I would LOVE to be proved wrong on Coach Wojo as I also think Person Wojo is an honorable individual who represents MU well.
I am certain most people who dislike Wojo as a coach feel the same way.
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Irrelevant. If we lost by 7 points the same exact people would bitch.
Simple question
If we lost by seven points and were actually competitive in the NCAA tournament - a nice change of pace from what we have experienced/seen so far - people would be happy.
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That's where I'm kind of at. Yea it's been frustrating.
But who is waiting in the wings that's going to be an automatic upgrade from Wojo? Nobody who wants Wojo fired even bothers to throw out any names.
Posters giving names for possible hires, even when their team has already fired their coach and are looking, is always awful. That said, the idea that a coach of Wojo's calibur and one that is actually a better all-around coach than Wojo is not available are deluding themselves into accepting mediocrity.
The next coach may not be the answer, but why are you wasting years with a coach most of us already can tell is not the answer? Norland and Parrish talk about this every year on their podcast. Once you know your coach is not the guy, move on. Keeping him cause you are afraid can do more damage long-term than moving on quickly and failing with the next one.
Keeping Wojo for a single recruiting class is the worst pro-Wojo take.
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I think the delusional aspect of this is assuming that people who dislike Wojo as a coach would hope MU b-ball fails in any way. I think Coach Wojo leaves a lot to be desired and that there are far better all-around coaches out there who would love to be MU's coach. Now, I would LOVE to be proved wrong on Coach Wojo as I also think Person Wojo is an honorable individual who represents MU well.
I am certain most people who dislike Wojo as a coach feel the same way.
This
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Very relevant and without that info I’ll abstain
No it isn't.
Is being up by 15 points with under 14 minutes to play on a neutral court as a 6 seed over an 11 seed in the NCAA tournament where we ultimately lose....HUMILIATING? Because it happened in 2010 in first round against Washington.
Is a game where we are two possessions down with about 7 minutes to go and run out of gas, can't make a shot, etc, etc and lose by 20 to a 10 seed that goes to the FINAL FOUR....HUMILIATING?
Etc, etc. Too subjective.
PICK A POSITION. Not that hard. Do you want to make the NCAA tournament or if doing so means the coach you don't care for and isn't the "answer" for you sticks around. PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE.
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If we lost by seven points and were actually competitive in the NCAA tournament - a nice change of pace from what we have experienced/seen so far - people would be happy.
No they wouldn't and you know it. I can provide plenty of examples here where people bitch a fit that we made the Final Four because of how we lost. It's nothing but a smokescreen the margin of loss, and to deny this is comical. We lost, and to many people that is ALL that matters. Not if it was close, because if the games were close the same people would say he is 0-2 an that's all the matters to them.
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No it isn't.
Is being up by 15 points with under 14 minutes to play on a neutral court as a 6 seed over an 11 seed in the NCAA tournament where we ultimately lose....HUMILIATING? Because it happened in 2010 in first round against Washington.
Is a game where we are two possessions down with about 7 minutes to go and run out of gas, can't make a shot, etc, etc and lose by 20 to a 10 seed that goes to the FINAL FOUR....HUMILIATING?
Etc, etc. Too subjective.
PICK A POSITION. Not that hard. Do you want to make the NCAA tournament or if doing so means the coach you don't care for and isn't the "answer" for you sticks around. PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE.
Why so triggered lately? I get to choose if it’s relevant to me. Not you. You get to choose what’s relevant to you.
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No it isn't.
Is being up by 15 points with under 14 minutes to play on a neutral court as a 6 seed over an 11 seed in the NCAA tournament where we ultimately lose....HUMILIATING? Because it happened in 2010 in first round against Washington.
Is a game where we are two possessions down with about 7 minutes to go and run out of gas, can't make a shot, etc, etc and lose by 20 to a 10 seed that goes to the FINAL FOUR....HUMILIATING?
Etc, etc. Too subjective.
PICK A POSITION. Not that hard. Do you want to make the NCAA tournament or if doing so means the coach you don't care for and isn't the "answer" for you sticks around. PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE.
When Wojo does something good besides winning a an occasional regular season game against a good team, we'll start cutting him some more slack. Not sure why this is not obvious to you. Sure Buzz lost a game to Washington in a 6-11 game (which is still a much better result than Wojo's best NCAA performance BTW), but we won 8 NCAA games with him, too. Until we win something of import under Wojo, people aren't going to cut him much slack.
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Keeping Wojo for a single recruiting class is the worst pro-Wojo take.
Agree 100%. I have faith that MU would not and is not running the basketball program like a scared child and will make a change when it is time to. Sure it would not be fun to lose a great recruiting class but it would be a short term loss for the long term benefit of the program.
And there are most definitely a lot of great coaching candidates for a job like MU. Anyone who says any different does not understand what a tremendous university it is and its dedication to have a great basketball program.
All that said, I'm not supporting that Wojo be fired. There is plenty of basketball yet to be played this season and he most definitely deserves the opportunity to right the ship. (not that the fans here have any say in what he deserves).
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Why so triggered lately? I get to choose if it’s relevant to me. Not you. You get to choose what’s relevant to you.
Not triggered, feel free to start a poll if you wish. Mine is very straight forward. I also think for most people bitching about post season losses, they don’t give one damn if it is by 1 point or 20....it’s an L to them. They don’t care if we lost to a Final Four team or someone that loses next game...it’s an L to them. I say this by simply reading their comments and historical responses.
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No they wouldn't and you know it. I can provide plenty of examples here where people bitch a fit that we made the Final Four because of how we lost. It's nothing but a smokescreen the margin of loss, and to deny this is comical. We lost, and to many people that is ALL that matters. Not if it was close, because if the games were close the same people would say he is 0-2 an that's all the matters to them.
All I know if that I was bummed we lost in the Final Four but immensely proud that we got there. Most people I know felt the same way. I cannot comment on the rest of MU humanity that you are convinced is the overwhelming majority, apparently.
And f$%& the margin of loss. It's being competitive and fighting to the last second that matters. Wojo's teams don't. And worse, for the most part (meaning I am not talking about the isolated games you are sure to mention) Wojo's teams are wet-sponge soft and that is what irritates.
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Cant vote No with phrase "Wojo has been productive" in there, and cat vote yes. Flawed poll.
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Lol, its sad this question even needs to be asked.
I'll keep Wojo and his recruiting class. People that think MU can do considerably better than Wojo are delusional.
The question is being asked by a fragile clickbait whore, it doesn't *need* to be asked
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People that think MU can do considerably better than Wojo are delusional.
Marquette most certainly can do better. They have previously.
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I hope he gets to the tournament, wins a game, and is hired away elsewhere.
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Cant vote No with phrase "Wojo has been productive" in there, and cat vote yes. Flawed poll.
Exactly this...not voting yes because A. The success of MU basketball is more important to me than any Coach. B. I ALWAYS want to see them in the NCAA's. C. Even if they do miss the tourney, I doubt he gets fired anyway. D. I'm not voting no because of the above mentioned phrase. If it was just straight no...that'd be my vote. But as is written, I'm abstaining. Lose any more home games to mediocre basketball teams this year and I will be teetering on the brink big time.
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Cheekz, yikes man, pilot's really lost control of the plane for you these days, even more than usual. Spend time with family, focus on work, and step away from the Scoop.
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I hope he gets to the tournament, wins a game, and is hired away elsewhere.
Winner. Chico’s, edit the poll to add this option please and thanks.
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You know where I stand (a no vote), but when I see people actively wanting him fired (you know who you are) then I have to think some of you want us to miss this year's tournament to help satiate the means to the end. Making the tournament, in some eyes, just means another year.
Do you even have a job? When I graduate from college I would love to have a job where I have as much free time as Cheeks to troll the net and be the biggest mu hoops expert.
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The question is being asked by a fragile clickbait whore, it doesn't *need* to be asked
“Fragile Clickbait Whore” could be one of his burner accounts
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It was 80/20 voters wanting to win.
Poll reset with new option.
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Do you even have a job? When I graduate from college I would love to have a job where I have as much free time as Cheeks to troll the net and be the biggest mu hoops expert.
Mr. Barf - As you are a walkon with only a few posts here's a piece of advice - do not encourage Cheeks to prove that he has a job and/or explain his "free time" posting.
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Mr. Barf - As you are a walkon with only a few posts here's a piece of advice - do not encourage Cheeks prove that he has a job and/or explain his "free time" posting.
Actually, he doesn't need any encouragement at all. But you aren't going to fix him.
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Lol, its sad this question even needs to be asked.
I'll keep Wojo and his recruiting class. People that think MU can do considerably better than Wojo are delusional.
Now...that statement is delusional
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Marquette most certainly can do better. They have previously.
This. What’s delusional is the thinking that the MU job is a crap job and that we can’t do better than a coach who likely won’t win an NCAA tournament game his first 7 years on the job, 4 of which included the programs all-time leading scorer and two-time All-American.
I voted win a game and get hired away. Never want to see MU lose. I don’t dislike Wojo the person, just hate the way he coaches.
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Agree 100%. I have faith that MU would not and is not running the basketball program like a scared child and will make a change when it is time to. Sure it would not be fun to lose a great recruiting class but it would be a short term loss for the long term benefit of the program.
And there are most definitely a lot of great coaching candidates for a job like MU. Anyone who says any different does not understand what a tremendous university it is and its dedication to have a great basketball program.
All that said, I'm not supporting that Wojo be fired. There is plenty of basketball yet to be played this season and he most definitely deserves the opportunity to right the ship. (not that the fans here have any say in what he deserves).
Why is this so hard for people to understand??
I'm going to try this one more time.
This incoming class is not the ONLY reason some people still support keeping Wojo.
It is ONE of the reasons, along with, the trajectory of the program, regular season wins vs losses, tournament appearances, past recruiting of some talented and exciting players, growth as a coach, and the risks associated with a coaching change which include the possibility of LOSING this recruiting class. That last point is something people seem to lose sight of. Wojo gets credit for this recruiting class, but there is also the risk of losing those recruits if Wojo leaves. In a way it carries twice the weight in support of keeping Wojo than the single issue it appears to be at first glance.
The scales were balanced fairly evenly in regards to keeping Wojo or letting him go. The added weight of next years recruits combined with the risk of losing them clearly tipped the scales in favor of keeping Wojo IMHO
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Why is this so hard for people to understand??
I'm going to try this one more time.
This incoming class is not the ONLY reason some people still support keeping Wojo.
It is ONE of the reasons, along with, the trajectory of the program, regular season wins vs losses, tournament appearances, past recruiting of some talented and exciting players, growth as a coach, and the risks associated with a coaching change which include the possibility of LOSING this recruiting class. That last point is something people seem to lose sight of. Wojo gets credit for this recruiting class, but there is also the risk of losing those recruits if Wojo leaves. In a way it carries twice the weight in support of keeping Wojo than the single issue it appears to be at first glance.
The scales were balanced fairly evenly in regards to keeping Wojo or letting him go. The added weight of next years recruits combined with the risk of losing them clearly tipped the scales in favor of keeping Wojo IMHO
Can a straight line be a trajectory?
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So my poll was revised....start your own damn poll. Good Lord.
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The question is being asked by a fragile clickbait whore, it doesn't *need* to be asked
Based on the response where 20% of fans voted they cared more about losing than keeping him....it damn well needed to be asked. Otherwise the meme here would be "NO ONE WANTS TO LOSE"...uhm, BS...about 20% want us to lose more than succeed because they don't care for a coach. It's exactly why I asked it.
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All I know if that I was bummed we lost in the Final Four but immensely proud that we got there. Most people I know felt the same way. I cannot comment on the rest of MU humanity that you are convinced is the overwhelming majority, apparently.
And f$%& the margin of loss. It's being competitive and fighting to the last second that matters. Wojo's teams don't. And worse, for the most part (meaning I am not talking about the isolated games you are sure to mention) Wojo's teams are wet-sponge soft and that is what irritates.
Such nonsense to suggest they don't fight to the end. You telling me we didn't fight to the bitter end against Seton Hall last year? How about Creighton? How is it that we are 10-1 in the last few years in Overtime....which last I checked is the bitter end. This mythology is ridiculous.
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Do you even have a job? When I graduate from college I would love to have a job where I have as much free time as Cheeks to troll the net and be the biggest mu hoops expert.
You should know, you just "rejoined" two weeks ago.....LOL.
By the way, since you have no idea how many hours I work, how late I work, how I work 7 days a week....you can stow it. I have a situation where I can be working until 2:00am some days, and some days not. Happy to show you plenty of other people here posting all the time, but of course the selective outrage from the "new" poster. LOL. And your comments about me not having surgery coming up....dude...you are a long-timer here, don't pretend you aren't. And yes, because of the Super Bowl, because of a wedding next month and a few other things, I've delayed the surgery for a bit. Getting a wing fixed and the chances of hurting it more are slim, so delaying.
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Posters giving names for possible hires, even when their team has already fired their coach and are looking, is always awful. That said, the idea that a coach of Wojo's calibur and one that is actually a better all-around coach than Wojo is not available are deluding themselves into accepting mediocrity.
The next coach may not be the answer, but why are you wasting years with a coach most of us already can tell is not the answer? Norland and Parrish talk about this every year on their podcast. Once you know your coach is not the guy, move on. Keeping him cause you are afraid can do more damage long-term than moving on quickly and failing with the next one.
Keeping Wojo for a single recruiting class is the worst pro-Wojo take.
I've yet to find anyone that said that is the main reason....have you?
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Such nonsense to suggest they don't fight to the end. You telling me we didn't fight to the bitter end against Seton Hall last year? How about Creighton? How is it that we are 10-1 in the last few years in Overtime....which last I checked is the bitter end. This mythology is ridiculous.
Thank you for reading my post and responding so perfectly.
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So my poll was revised....start your own damn poll. Good Lord.
When the two possible answers are:
A - Agree with me. I'm always right!
B - I'm a selfish, miserable jerk!
It makes sense that it was revised. When you start a troll poll (any Always Sunny fans?) don't be surprised when it gets revised or blocked.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_center,h_675,pg_1,q_80,w_1200/vqlgskn8tauycixaca8e.jpg)
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Cheeks:
(https://i1.wp.com/blogforarizona.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/baghdad-bob.jpg?fit=444%2C331&ssl=1)
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Option A: Wojo’s awesome
Option B: You’re rooting against Marquette! I knew it! I knew some of you bastards were rooting against Marquette!!
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Can a straight line be a trajectory?
Going from a losing season in year one to a high seed in the NCAA tournament in year five is not a straight line. You need to get your eyesight and your evaluating abilities checked.
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Going from a losing season in year one to a high seed in the NCAA tournament in year five is not a straight line. You need to get your eyesight and your evaluating abilities checked.
500 for three straight seasons and choking away a Big East title. Two of his best players would rather transfer and burn a year of eligibility than reconcile with another player. And it appears as though this season we’ll be lucky to reach 500.
So one outlier season with four 500 seasons. Straight line.
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When the two possible answers are:
A - Agree with me. I'm always right!
B - I'm a selfish, miserable jerk!
It makes sense that it was revised. When you start a troll poll (any Always Sunny fans?) don't be surprised when it gets revised or blocked.
Most people got it, the vote was as I expected. Pretty sad, but not at all surprising. And the poll was not constructed at all how you describe. Very straight forward and using the very same arguments people made....short term pain for him to leave was why some wanted him to go. That’s how I asked it.
Notice the language wasn’t changed, only a third option was given...a cop out option.
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500 for three straight seasons and choking away a Big East title. Two of his best players would rather transfer and burn a year of eligibility than reconcile with another player. And it appears as though this season we’ll be lucky to reach 500.
So one outlier season with four 500 seasons. Straight line.
Selectively ignoring all the other data....good one Panda.
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500 for three straight seasons and choking away a Big East title. Two of his best players would rather transfer and burn a year of eligibility than reconcile with another player. And it appears as though this season we’ll be lucky to reach 500.
So one outlier season with four 500 seasons. Straight line.
Goalpost moved
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Thank you for reading my post and responding so perfectly.
Because your comment was ridiculous and needed to be shown with examples how ridiculous it was. You are welcome.
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Goalpost moved
Sigh... I’m laughing, but come on.
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Such nonsense to suggest they don't fight to the end. You telling me we didn't fight to the bitter end against Seton Hall last year? How about Creighton? How is it that we are 10-1 in the last few years in Overtime....which last I checked is the bitter end. This mythology is ridiculous.
Overtime wins: IUPUI, Eastern Illinois, a 15-17 Arizona State, a 15-15 Georgetown. Excluding these craps teams, we're 6-1. And there are good wins in there but these are examples that the team doesn't show up every game.
Excludind his first year, Wojo has the following records in Big East play:
8 - 10
10 - 8
9 - 9
12 - 6
1 - 3
Last year was a down year for the BE and I believe this is accepted as fact by most experts. So we are 4 games over 500, due entirely to a weak conference last year.
We are 11 - 18 against ranked opponents over this same time.
This is what you consider acceptable after five years?
And again, thank you for reading my post and doing exactly what I thought you would do.
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Goalpost moved
One promising season choked away. The rest 500. This season looking like 500 at best. Goalposts firmly planted.
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Can a straight line be a trajectory?
Winner.
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Can we have a Chico free day?
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Going from a losing season in year one to a high seed in the NCAA tournament in year five is not a straight line. You need to get your eyesight and your evaluating abilities checked.
You expect to be better this year than we were last year? Second place conference finish? 12-6 conference record? Top 10 ranking? Five seed in tourney?
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500 for three straight seasons and choking away a Big East title. Two of his best players would rather transfer and burn a year of eligibility than reconcile with another player. And it appears as though this season we’ll be lucky to reach 500.
So one outlier season with four 500 seasons. Straight line.
Only one lost a year and the other got to sit out a season and let his hip recover and get better for a potential draft run. Facts matter.
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One promising season choked away. The rest 500. This season looking like 500 at best. Goalposts firmly planted.
If I thought you would seriously consider or comprehend what trending positive year over year means, I might have taken the time to explain it to you. I simplified it in my year one to year five example and you couldn't even understand that.
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If I thought you would seriously consider or comprehend what trending positive year over year means, I might have taken the time to explain it to you. I simplified it in my year one, year five example and you couldn't even understand that.
Does the word outlier mean anything to you?
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Does the word outlier mean anything to you?
That's your word not mine. The word I used was trend, or trending. In a sentence. Marquette has been trending positive year over year since Wojo was hired.
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I hope he gets to the tournament, wins a game, and is hired away elsewhere.
This is the most flawed thinking of the Nojoers. Basically if he wins a post season game then he did exactly what you say he couldn’t do which means he is closer to being the right hire than you want. To me this means, you want to be right versus him being successful aka MU success. This begs the question what would Wojo have to do to be the right guy? Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, Final Four, or National Championship?
Second question is, why do you only want MU to win only one game versus six before he gets hired away? Right because then Wojo would be the right guy.
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That's your word not mine. The word I used was trend, or trending. In a sentence. Marquette has been trending positive year over year since Wojo was hired.
Conference record does not support positive growth. Do you believe we’ll finish better than 12-6 in conference this season?
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That's your word not mine. The word I used was trend, or trending. In a sentence. Marquette has been trending positive year over year since Wojo was hired.
Three essentially 500 BE records and one 12-6 season (with an epic coaching choke job at the end) and a 1-3 start this year?
That looks outlier-ish to me.
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If I thought you would seriously consider or comprehend what trending positive year over year means, I might have taken the time to explain it to you. I simplified it in my year one to year five example and you couldn't even understand that.
What we've really seen were two outlier years and 3 pretty similar, good but not great years. Year 1 isn't even worth discussing. Years 2-4 were all in the 20 win range - good but not great. Years like that should keep us in the NCAA conversation but may leave us nervous on Selection Sunday more often that we'd like. Year 5 is starting to look like an outlier. We went on a great win streak, cracked the top 10, and had a real shot to win the conference.
Looking at the total body of work so far, it seems like 20 wins is about the right bar for Wojo. That's not bad by any stretch, but it's also not going to put us in contention in the Big East very often either.
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This is the most flawed thinking of the Nojoers. Basically if he wins a post season game then he did exactly what you say he couldn’t do which means he is closer to being the right hire than you want. To me this means, you want to be right versus him being successful aka MU success. This begs the question what would Wojo have to do to be the right guy? Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, Final Four, or National Championship?
Second question is, why do you only want MU to win only one game versus six before he gets hired away? Right because then Wojo would be the right guy.
There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
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There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
This is like the question - who is our number two. Hypothetical and not easily answered.
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This is the most flawed thinking of the Nojoers. Basically if he wins a post season game then he did exactly what you say he couldn’t do which means he is closer to being the right hire than you want. To me this means, you want to be right versus him being successful aka MU success. This begs the question what would Wojo have to do to be the right guy? Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, Final Four, or National Championship?
Second question is, why do you only want MU to win only one game versus six before he gets hired away? Right because then Wojo would be the right guy.
Hey if he wins a championship or even gets to a Final Four with this crew, I’d be happy to be wrong and give him a lifetime contract.
But IMO it’s in the best long-term interest of MU basketball that he’s not here. He’s not a great coach. So even if he wins a game in the tournament that wouldn’t change my mind. (I’ve never said he couldn’t win a tournament game or simply use that as a measure of success. Mike Deane won a tournament game and he stunk too.)
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There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
That's me. The one who hopes to be proven wrong. And while I don't give a skinny rats @$$ about what you believe, my statement happens to be true.
And I have said that I do not like Coach Wojo but I have a great deal of respect for Person Wojo. I cannot speak for the others who feel he is a poor coach/good person but I suspect I am not alone in how I feel.
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That's me. The one who hopes to be proven wrong. And while I don't give a skinny rats @$$ about what you believe, my statement happens to be true.
And I have said that I do not like Coach Wojo but I have a great deal of respect for Person Wojo. I cannot speak for the others who feel he is a poor coach/good person but I suspect I am not alone in how I feel.
You speak for many. As far as those who secretly hate Wojo and root for all bad things to happen to Marquette just so he’s fired? Yeah, those aren’t a thing.
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You should know, you just "rejoined" two weeks ago.....LOL.
By the way, since you have no idea how many hours I work, how late I work, how I work 7 days a week....you can stow it. I have a situation where I can be working until 2:00am some days, and some days not. Happy to show you plenty of other people here posting all the time, but of course the selective outrage from the "new" poster. LOL. And your comments about me not having surgery coming up....dude...you are a long-timer here, don't pretend you aren't. And yes, because of the Super Bowl, because of a wedding next month and a few other things, I've delayed the surgery for a bit. Getting a wing fixed and the chances of hurting it more are slim, so delaying.
Sorry “dude” but I don’t know who you. I have no idea why anyone would pretend to not be a long time poster. I actually have a real life and don’t live through multiple user names on a sports message board.
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This candy ass, politically correct administration will not fire Wojo no matter how much the team underachieves because they have a coach who mirrors them.
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Sorry “dude” but I don’t know who you. I have no idea why anyone would pretend to not be a long time poster. I actually have a real life and don’t live through multiple user names on a sports message board.
Why did you say I wasn't having surgery? I am using one username. This is why I know you aren't a new user, good try....you gave yourself away yesterday.
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This candy ass, politically correct administration will not fire Wojo no matter how much the team underachieves because they have a coach who mirrors them.
You show them....cancel those tickets, stop those massive donations. Show them who is boss and take their Candy Asses out to the garbage bin.
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Three essentially 500 BE records and one 12-6 season (with an epic coaching choke job at the end) and a 1-3 start this year?
That looks outlier-ish to me.
Nothing you have presented has disproven the fact, that statistically, Marquette has been trending in a positive direction year over year since Wojos hiring.
If you believe you can try a bait and switch to undermine my argument you are sadly mistaken.
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You show them....cancel those tickets, stop those massive donations. Show them who is boss and take their Candy Asses out to the garbage bin.
The donors are candy asses too, so we are stuck w/ the wojo lolly pop
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7abI41DLtDBd1VQs/giphy.gif)
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Nothing you have presented has disproven the fact, that statistically, Marquette has been trending in a positive direction year over year since Wojos hiring.
If you believe you can try a bait and switch to undermine my argument you are sadly mistaken.
2014–15 Marquette 13–19 4–14 T–9th
2015–16 Marquette 20–13 8–10 7th
2016–17 Marquette 19–13 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Division I First Round
2017–18 Marquette 21–14 9–9 T–6th NIT Quarterfinal
2018–19 Marquette 24–10 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I First Round
2019–20 Marquette 11–5 1–3
Wojo’s BE standing trend is this 9th, 7th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, TBD. Upward trajectory
Win trend is 13, 20, 19, 21, 24, TBD. Movement upward.
Conference wins trend is 4, 8, 10, 9, 12, TBD. Movement upward.
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2014–15 Marquette 13–19 4–14 T–9th
2015–16 Marquette 20–13 8–10 7th
2016–17 Marquette 19–13 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Division I First Round
2017–18 Marquette 21–14 9–9 T–6th NIT Quarterfinal
2018–19 Marquette 24–10 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I First Round
2019–20 Marquette 11–5 1–3
Wojo’s BE standing trend is this 9th, 7th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, TBD. Upward trajectory
Win trend is 13, 20, 19, 21, 24, TBD. Movement upward.
Conference wins trend is 4, 8, 10, 9, 12, TBD. Movement upward.
Excluding year 1, it's almost the definition of
"flat" with one outlier in weak BE year. This year will prove one side right. We will see what happens.
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And this..
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/platform/amp/2020/1/12/21062312/marquette-golden-eagles-basketball-trends-in-wins-and-losses
Goes right to coaching. And it's based on statistics.
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Excluding year 1, it's almost the definition of
"flat" with one outlier in weak BE year. This year will prove one side right. We will see what happens.
How is 7th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd the definition of flat? Looks to me like 3 years of improvement and one going the other way. At some point you do want "flat" in terms of stability, smooth out the highs and lows.
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Why did you say I wasn't having surgery? I am using one username. This is why I know you aren't a new user, good try....you gave yourself away yesterday.
I said you weren’t having surgery because that would be when you were going to take a break from being cheeks and post as one of your other usernames for that month.
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I said you weren’t having surgery because that would be when you were going to take a break from being cheeks and post as one of your other usernames for that month.
Look, you've been cooked and caught by your own words. Just stop. I have one username that I am using...period...but hey "you just joined" so you have this history. LOL.
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There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
Your frustration is misplaced. Instead of lashing out at Wojo’s critics, you should be angry with Wojo for not shutting them up in the 5.5 years he’s had to do so.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember you saying that as long as Wojo is running a clean program, you’ll support him and the team no matter what. (Again, I apologize if I’m putting words in your mouth, but I recall you saying something like that.) You can’t blame people for not feeling that way.
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I've yet to find anyone that said that is the main reason....have you?
Yes, quite often (i.e. “name me the coach to replace Wojo who could keep this class”). It is used all the time as one of the few arguments some pro-Wojo posters turn to when they can’t point to any other good on-the-court reason to keep him.
Emphasis on some. But it is made way too much to the point that it’s pathetic. Pinning our hopes for success on HS students and falsely believing no other coach could possibly recruit decently as well.
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Look, you've been cooked and caught by your own words. Just stop. I have one username that I am using...period...but hey "you just joined" so you have this history. LOL.
Wouldn’t it be caught and cooked? You can’t cook something before you catch it....LOL.
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Yes, quite often (i.e. “name me the coach to replace Wojo who could keep this class”. It is used all the time as one of the few arguments some pro-Wojo posters turn to when they can’t point to any other good on-the-court reason to keep him.
Not the main argument or the only argument...an argument, sure, but if such examples exist they should be easy to find.
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There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
Really it’s just been this year that I have turned. Life’s not quite as simple as you portray.
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Not the main argument or the only argument...an argument, sure, but if such examples exist they should be easy to find.
By some posters, yes it is the only part of their argument. A. Lot. Just cause you do t make it the main part of YOUR argument, doesn’t mean others haven’t and still do.
I’m not doing your homework for you. Pay attention and stop looking for only the things you want to see and you will find the pro-Wojo people being insufferable with their blinders on and anti-Wojo posters being reasonable and vice-versa.
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Yes, quite often (i.e. “name me the coach to replace Wojo who could keep this class”). It is used all the time as one of the few arguments some pro-Wojo posters turn to when they can’t point to any other good on-the-court reason to keep him.
Emphasis on some. But it is made way too much to the point that it’s pathetic. Pinning our hopes for success on HS students and falsely believing no other coach could possibly recruit decently as well.
So ironically false.
NoJos constantly misrepresent Wojos record, and when they are called out for their BS they retreat to their ONE valid talking point.
Wojo hasn't won a game in the NCAA tournament.
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Really it’s just been this year that I have turned. Life’s not quite as simple as you portray.
That may be the case for you that you've come out, but that's not the case for others who have been that way since day one and as Jesu points out...will not matter what he does.
20% want us not to make the NCAAs so they can get their way with a new coach...wishing for losing more than winning.
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So ironically false.
NoJos constantly misrepresent Wojos record, and when they are called out for their BS they retreat to their ONE valid talking point.
Wojo hasn't won a game in the NCAA tournament.
Yeah. That's the only valid point... ::)
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That may be the case for you that you've come out, but that's not the case for others who have been that way since day one and as Jesu points out...will not matter what he does.
20% want us not to make the NCAAs so they can get their way with a new coach...wishing for losing more than winning.
I want nothing more than Wojo to succeed. I want him to be the next Al. He is a great representative of the University.
I just don’t think it’s going to happen. The same mistakes keep happening. The lack of in-game adjustments have been a continuing issue.
I’ve lost faith and think it’s time to move on.
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That may be the case for you that you've come out, but that's not the case for others who have been that way since day one and as Jesu points out...will not matter what he does.
20% want us not to make the NCAAs so they can get their way with a new coach...wishing for losing more than winning.
Fluffy,
I wasn't including you in that group.
I think there are some, who post here loudly, that are in that group.
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Your frustration is misplaced. Instead of lashing out at Wojo’s critics, you should be angry with Wojo for not shutting them up in the 5.5 years he’s had to do so.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember you saying that as long as Wojo is running a clean program, you’ll support him and the team no matter what. (Again, I apologize if I’m putting words in your mouth, but I recall you saying something like that.) You can’t blame people for not feeling that way.
I can be frustrated at both. Those wojo critics who want wojo to simply fail, regardless of how it might hurt MU, are the ones who are annoying.
I don't recall saying that. Doesn't mean I djdnt.
However, I did just text my small group of MU friends (after the Seton Hall loss), that I was out on Wojo. I additionally don't feel the team will make the NCAA this season (based on what I've seen from them so far this season - performance, not straight w/l).
I hope Wojo doesn't become Majerus part 2. I hope (if wojo is gone in the next few years) that MU can unearth a Beard or Oats/Musselman (assuming success continues for them).
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I can be frustrated at both. Those wojo critics who want wojo to simply fail, regardless of how it might hurt MU, are the ones who are annoying.
There are maybe 2 of those here. No need to focus on the fringe so much.
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Yeah. That's the only valid point... ::)
It's the only objective one.
That's why I purposefully try to avoid including subjective observations in my evaluation of Wojo.
Oddly, things that some of the NoJos think are excuses,( injuries, unanticipated transfers of key players, and lack of experience ) are actually objective evidence that can and should be used when evaluating Wojos record.
Ironically, things NoJos think are fair criticisms, ( assigning Wojo blame for the Hausers leaving, blame for lack of in game adjustments in a loss, blame for player personnel decisions in a loss, etc ) are subjective observations and should generally be avoided when evaluating Wojos record
Here's a little something to think about.
If, over the course of Wojos tenure, his record was so bad, and his recruiting was so bad, and the players were so bad, and there was no excitement surrounding Marquette basketball, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone( the AD, top recruits, ALL the fans )?? Wouldnt he already have been fired??
Again, it's just something to think about.
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I do have a question for the Pro-joers: Most good coaches have a common identity that many of their teams exhibit, a trait that makes them a good basketball team year in and year out. For both Crean and Buzz, it seemed to be that their teams played very hard, a lot of deflections and defensive pressure. What positive identity/identities have Wojo's teams showed so far? There is no trademark that I can pin down; it certainly isn't defensive pressure like Wojo the player was known for.
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I do have a question for the Pro-joers: Most good coaches have a common identity that many of their teams exhibit, a trait that makes them a good basketball team year in and year out. For both Crean and Buzz, it seemed to be that their teams played very hard, a lot of deflections and defensive pressure. What positive identity/identities have Wojo's teams showed so far? There is no trademark that I can pin down; it certainly isn't defensive pressure like Wojo the player was known for.
He’s extremely loyal. He lets Markus do whatever the hell he wants even if it means alienating and pushing away his second and third best players. Loyalty.
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I want Wojo gone ASAP! It has been five plus years! Enough is enough, period!
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I believe the punctuation mark you're referring to is an exclamation point, not a period.
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I believe the punctuation mark you're referring to is an exclamation point, not a period.
Take it any way you want.
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I do have a question for the Pro-joers: Most good coaches have a common identity that many of their teams exhibit, a trait that makes them a good basketball team year in and year out. For both Crean and Buzz, it seemed to be that their teams played very hard, a lot of deflections and defensive pressure. What positive identity/identities have Wojo's teams showed so far? There is no trademark that I can pin down; it certainly isn't defensive pressure like Wojo the player was known for.
I would say allowing players to showcase their offensive talents. I would usually criticize a coach for allowing it to the point of being counterproductive in games and in the locker room, but considering the crap other schools do to lure recruits, I think it's the one thing Wojo can point to that will grab a kids attention.
Of course this leads to Markus and the poor Hauser brothers. I find this confusing, because if anyone had a right to bitch it was Sacar. Joey comes in as a true freshman and is immediately given a starting position, 30 minutes a game, and as many shot attempts as Sacar who was a fourth year junior. Sam averaged four more shots per game than Sacar despite being lower in seniority.
That's why I laugh when people try to portray the Hausers as victims.
I don't really blame Markus either, because we were short a second quality ball handler. Chartouny was a miss and Greg was hurt. Someone had to take up their slack, and I'm glad it was Markus. It worked until injuries and fatigue caught up to the whole team.
Oddly, all of this may have worked in Wojos favor when it came to recruiting, because he could entice the new recruits with the promise of minutes, a starting position and an opportunity to showcase their talent.
I don't think the new recruits give a damn about what happened with the Hausers and Markus. I know they don't give a damn about what happened to Sacar..
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I do have a question for the Pro-joers: Most good coaches have a common identity that many of their teams exhibit, a trait that makes them a good basketball team year in and year out. For both Crean and Buzz, it seemed to be that their teams played very hard, a lot of deflections and defensive pressure. What positive identity/identities have Wojo's teams showed so far? There is no trademark that I can pin down; it certainly isn't defensive pressure like Wojo the player was known for.
3 point shooting
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3 point shooting
Undeniably a major strength
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Hey if he wins a championship or even gets to a Final Four with this crew, I’d be happy to be wrong and give him a lifetime contract.
But IMO it’s in the best long-term interest of MU basketball that he’s not here. He’s not a great coach. So even if he wins a game in the tournament that wouldn’t change my mind. (I’ve never said he couldn’t win a tournament game or simply use that as a measure of success. Mike Deane won a tournament game and he stunk too.)
If he gets this team to the tournament and wins one or two games he will have demonstrated to me that he is developing as a coach and that keeping him is the right move. I would see no reason to give up on someone who is getting better at his craft while recruiting at a high level and running a clean program.
I should mention that is a big “if” at this point .
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If he gets this team to the tournament and wins one or two games he will have demonstrated to me that he is developing as a coach and that keeping him is the right move. I would see no reason to give up on someone who is getting better at his craft while recruiting at a high level and running a clean program.
To many people don’t care about the clean program....it is mocked here by some. Just as some people mocked the Christmas visit by MU players to the less fortunate posted here...that’s who some of our fans are. Remember that.
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This is a classic MUScoop thread.
It's all about recriminations .. identifying the bad fans, the good fans, dividing the fanbase up, punishing those on the "other" side.
In before the lock.
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This is a classic MUScoop thread.
It's all about recriminations .. identifying the bad fans, the good fans, dividing the fanbase up, punishing those on the "other" side.
In before the lock.
Fans were divided on day one....hundreds of posts to prove that out. Happens every coaching change. Hell, happens every damn game result here.
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To many people don’t care about the clean program....it is mocked here by some. Just as some people mocked the Christmas visit by MU players to the less fortunate posted here...that’s who some of our fans are. Remember that.
Ironic that you're the guy who wants higher academic standards. When Jae Crowder gave my daughter an autograph it didn't look like this: "Two: Lil Lens"
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Fans were divided on day one....hundreds of posts to prove that out. Happens every coaching change. Hell, happens every damn game result here.
And you're doing a great service. Great job.
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I want Wojo gone ASAP! It has been five plus years! Enough is enough, period!
You wanted him out with your very first post in 2015 claiming the program was in turmoil....then you were oddly quiet (under this username) until 2018...then went quiet again until last last year.
When presented with data last year to counter your claims, you said it was “talking heads” data (whatever that means) when it was actually data from Sagarin, Net, BPI, KenPom, and others.
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And you're doing a great service. Great job.
Cheeks carrying water for the bosses, looking for a pat on the head & a gold star for his valiant service in the keyboard wars. We salute you Cheeks!
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And you're doing a great service. Great job.
Can't believe I'm going to do this, but without Cheeks I think the majority of positive posters have flown the coop since Saturday. See warriorchick's post. It would be a fairly one-sided place without his couple hundred posts since Seton Hall.
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I would say allowing players to showcase their offensive talents. I would usually criticize a coach for allowing it to the point of being counterproductive in games and in the locker room, but considering the crap other schools do to lure recruits, I think it's the one thing Wojo can point to that will grab a kids attention.
Of course this leads to Markus and the poor Hauser brothers. I find this confusing, because if anyone had a right to bitch it was Sacar. Joey comes in as a true freshman and is immediately given a starting position, 30 minutes a game, and as many shot attempts as Sacar who was a fourth year junior. Sam averaged four more shots per game than Sacar despite being lower in seniority.
That's why I laugh when people try to portray the Hausers as victims.
I don't really blame Markus either, because we were short a second quality ball handler. Chartouny was a miss and Greg was hurt. Someone had to take up their slack, and I'm glad it was Markus. It worked until injuries and fatigue caught up to the whole team.
Oddly, all of this may have worked in Wojos favor when it came to recruiting, because he could entice the new recruits with the promise of minutes, a starting position and an opportunity to showcase their talent.
I don't think the new recruits give a damn about what happened with the Hausers and Markus. I know they don't give a damn about what happened to Sacar..
If you are right, then this is the problem.
Defense wins. You can shoot yourself into wins against inferior teams but against quality opponents, that is not going to happen on a consistent enough basis. And many coaches have said this in the past - the ONLY thing you can control is effort on defense. Everything else, especially what happens on offense, can be subject to having bad games, getting a bad bounce, etc... Going all out on defense is something that can always be done no matter the opponent.
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It's the only objective one.
That's why I purposefully try to avoid including subjective observations in my evaluation of Wojo.
Oddly, things that some of the NoJos think are excuses,( injuries, unanticipated transfers of key players, and lack of experience ) are actually objective evidence that can and should be used when evaluating Wojos record.
Ironically, things NoJos think are fair criticisms, ( assigning Wojo blame for the Hausers leaving, blame for lack of in game adjustments in a loss, blame for player personnel decisions in a loss, etc ) are subjective observations and should generally be avoided when evaluating Wojos record
Here's a little something to think about.
If, over the course of Wojos tenure, his record was so bad, and his recruiting was so bad, and the players were so bad, and there was no excitement surrounding Marquette basketball, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone( the AD, top recruits, ALL the fans )?? Wouldnt he already have been fired??
Again, it's just something to think about.
It's not the only objective one.
1) Overall won loss record over three of fours years. Right at 20, except for last year (an outlier).
2) BE won loss record over three of four years. (8, 10, 9 - and a 12 last year in a weak BE. Ex last year, Wojo is 500).
3) 11-18 record vs. ranked teams.
4) Collapse at end of 2018 that likely cost is an NCAA bid. We lost on 2/10/18 to a 16-17 (4-14 in BE) SJU. We lost on 2/24/18 to 11-20 (4-14 in BE) DePaul. It took OT on 2/26/18 to beat 15-15 (5-13 in BE) Georgetown. That was quite the OT win as someone pointed out in another post...
5) Last year. Don't need to get into that, we all know the crap show that was heading into the NCAAs.
No this part is, arguably, subjective at points. Wojo is a good person but he is not a good coach. Not at game prep, not at putting players in a position to win, not at adjusting in-game, not at adjusting his system to fit talents of players, not at managing/maintaining focus of the team, not getting max effort every game, not at correcting consistent problem areas (turnovers, defense, offensive flow, player development, etc...).
Why no change? I am not on the BOT and they are the only ones who know. Looking at the "pros" of Wojo: Wojo runs a clean program and I am all for that. His win total at around 20 per year, on the surface, looks good (although we are not remotely consistently competitive vs. quality opponents). That said, there is no doubt that he has pulled off some big wins. He is a great recruiter, in my opinion, of that there is no doubt.
He is doing just enough to be "safe" with this BOT. But not enough to be successful with talent that should be seeing far more success.
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It's not the only objective one.
1) Overall won loss record over three of fours years. Right at 20, except for last year (an outlier).
2) BE won loss record over three of four years. (8, 10, 9 - and a 12 last year in a weak BE. Ex last year, Wojo is 500).
3) 11-18 record vs. ranked teams.
4) Collapse at end of 2018 that likely cost is an NCAA bid. We lost on 2/10/18 to a 16-17 (4-14 in BE) SJU. We lost on 2/24/18 to 11-20 (4-14 in BE) DePaul. It took OT on 2/26/18 to beat 15-15 (5-13 in BE) Georgetown. That was quite the OT win as someone pointed out in another post...
5) Last year. Don't need to get into that, we all know the crap show that was heading into the NCAAs.
No this part is, arguably, subjective at points. Wojo is a good person but he is not a good coach. Not at game prep, not at putting players in a position to win, not at adjusting in-game, not at adjusting his system to fit talents of players, not at managing/maintaining focus of the team, not getting max effort every game, not at correcting consistent problem areas (turnovers, defense, offensive flow, player development, etc...).
Why no change? I am not on the BOT and they are the only ones who know. Looking at the "pros" of Wojo: Wojo runs a clean program and I am all for that. His win total at around 20 per year, on the surface, looks good (although we are not remotely consistently competitive vs. quality opponents). That said, there is no doubt that he has pulled off some big wins. He is a great recruiter, in my opinion, of that there is no doubt.
He is doing just enough to be "safe" with this BOT. But not enough to be successful with talent that should be seeing far more success.
#4 is pretty dishonest. There's no way that 2018 was a collapse. In our last 7 games we went 5-2. It's true we lost to a bad DePaul team and that may have cost us a NCAA bid. Our other loss was on the road against SJU, who started 0-11 in conference and then beat Duke and finished the year 4-14.
In that end of season stretch, we beat #94 Georgetown on the road, #30 Creighton on the road, #26 SHU on the road, and #30 Creighton at home. That's 3 quad one and 1 quad two win in the last 7 games. 3 wins over NCAA teams. We were playing our best basketball at the end of the year in 2018, unfortunately we dug ourselves too large of a hole at the start of conference play.
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Can't believe I'm going to do this, but without Cheeks I think the majority of positive posters have flown the coop since Saturday. See warriorchick's post. It would be a fairly one-sided place without his couple hundred posts since Seton Hall.
This place is miserable after losses. I stay away from here usually because the toxic hate from the anti Wojo members isn’t worth it. We are going to lose games, but now losses that are supposed to happen fuel some members.
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+1000 Staying away and the IGNORE list is your friend ! ! ! 8-)
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You wanted him out with your very first post in 2015 claiming the program was in turmoil....then you were oddly quiet (under this username) until 2018...then went quiet again until last last year.
When presented with data last year to counter your claims, you said it was “talking heads” data (whatever that means) when it was actually data from Sagarin, Net, BPI, KenPom, and others.
Chico, that is incorrect. I made a post before or right after Wojo was hired stating that I thought he was a bad hire. Wojo has done nothing in the last five plus years to change my mind.
My argument last year has that MU basketball was not trending up at the end of regular season play! Trends can only be defined with respect to the time frame they are enclosed. I make my living drawing and understanding trend lines. Furthermore, I know the difference between a loser and a winner and when to cut my losses.
In closing, I don't feel the need to come to this site and repeat myself over and over. As I have stated before, I respect you as a person and your opinion. It just happens that my opinion is not the same as yours.
Regards,
curbina
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Defense wins.
#FakeNews
#Lies
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Chico, that is incorrect. I made a post before or right after Wojo was hired stating that I thought he was a bad hire. Wojo has done nothing in the last five plus years to change my mind.
My argument last year has that MU basketball was not trending up at the end of regular season play! Trends can only be defined with respect to the time frame they are enclosed.
These two paragraphs clearly demonstrate the problem.......
What we have here.... is failure to communicate.
A NoJo states they didn't like the Wojo hire from the start. They go on to say he has done NOTHING to change their mind in FIVE PLUS YEARS.
The NoJo has set the timeframe for analyzing the trend concerning the trajectory of the program during Wojos tenure.
Using the timeframe the NoJo set, another poster analyzes the data and accurately concludes that the program has trended in a positive direction within the timeframe set by the NoJo.
Seems fair, right??
This is where it gets confusing.....
The NoJo states that Wojo has done NOTHING in FIVE YEARS as part of their rationale in support of his removal as head coach. Then the NoJo states that only the short timeframe from the end of last year should be considered when determining which way the team has been trending during Wojos tenure.
Seems unfair, right??
If the NoJo had simply said they don't like the direction the program is heading after last years collapse, that would be fair, right??
All the hyperbole and exaggerations regarding Wojos record only serve to garble the message NoJos are trying to communicate.
I guess the captain was right.
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#FakeNews
#Lies
#Not
https://www.breezejmu.org/sports/does-defense-win-ncaa-basketball-championships/article_edde0c66-261f-11e8-bc8a-5bf692f16fe2.html
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1567816-blueprint-of-an-ncaa-basketball-champion
https://www.vuhoops.com/villanova-basketball/2018/2/8/16986218/villanova-basketball-what-does-kenpom-tell-us-about-past-champions
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These two paragraphs clearly demonstrate the problem.......
What we have here.... is failure to communicate.
A NoJo states they didn't like the Wojo hire from the start. They go on to say he has done NOTHING to change their mind in FIVE PLUS YEARS.
The NoJo has set the timeframe for analyzing the trend concerning the trajectory of the program during Wojos tenure.
Using the timeframe the NoJo set, another poster analyzes the data and accurately concludes that the program has trended in a positive direction within the timeframe set by the NoJo.
Seems fair, right??
This is where it gets confusing.....
The NoJo states that Wojo has done NOTHING in FIVE YEARS as part of their rationale in support of his removal as head coach. Then the NoJo states that only the short timeframe from the end of last year should be considered when determining which way the team has been trending during Wojos tenure.
Seems unfair, right??
If the NoJo had simply said they don't like the direction the program is heading after last years collapse, that would be fair, right??
All the hyperbole and exaggerations regarding Wojos record only serve to garble the message NoJos are trying to communicate.
I guess the captain was right.
Let be very clear, I want Wojo gone ASAP!
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Overtime wins: IUPUI, Eastern Illinois, a 15-17 Arizona State, a 15-15 Georgetown. Excluding these craps teams, we're 6-1. And there are good wins in there but these are examples that the team doesn't show up every game.
Excludind his first year, Wojo has the following records in Big East play:
8 - 10
10 - 8
9 - 9
12 - 6
1 - 3
Last year was a down year for the BE and I believe this is accepted as fact by most experts. So we are 4 games over 500, due entirely to a weak conference last year.
We are 11 - 18 against ranked opponents over this same time.
This is what you consider acceptable after five years?
And again, thank you for reading my post and doing exactly what I thought you would do.
Arizona State that year was on a neutral court and they were 10-3 to start the season with losses to MU and Kentucky. They had beaten NC State, Creighton, a top 20 Texas A&M team, and Belmont during that opening stretch. There's a reason they won only 5 games after that 10-3 start....care to opine why?
Georgetown was an away, conference game.
You and others said we don't play hard down the stretch....that is demonstrably false or we wouldn't be 10-1 in OT games, as well winning so many others.
Let me ask you, what do YOU consider acceptable? Take a look at all the teams in our league the last 5 years...how many of them have glowing Big East records?
Going into this season and looking at the last four years, Marquette has the 4th most conference wins in the conference, which includes his second year which I still contend is a rebuilding year, but included anyway. Nova first, Xavier, Seton Hall, then us.
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Ironic that you're the guy who wants higher academic standards. When Jae Crowder gave my daughter an autograph it didn't look like this: "Two: Lil Lens"
(https://media.giphy.com/media/O4EChIxazzrHi/giphy.gif)
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Let be very clear, I want Wojo gone ASAP!
You always have. In Feb of 2015 you said "Under Wojo's leadership Marquette basketball is now in complete turmoil! I suppose you could say that "you've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em" and it is now time to send Wojo back to Duke and hire an experienced basketball coach!"
Yet, we all know things got better rather quickly. You then disappeared for 11 months and came back for one dip into the water...then disappeared again for two years, assuming you aren't using another username here. Apparently, things weren't in turmoil and you were biting your tongue.
So I would ask because you were so wrong then, why we should think you are right now? Furthermore, who is replacing him?
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Let be very clear, I want Wojo gone ASAP!
Let be very clear??
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You always have. In Feb of 2015 you said "Under Wojo's leadership Marquette basketball is now in complete turmoil! I suppose you could say that "you've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em" and it is now time to send Wojo back to Duke and hire an experienced basketball coach!"
Yet, we all know things got better rather quickly. You then disappeared for 11 months and came back for one dip into the water...then disappeared again for two years, assuming you aren't using another username here. Apparently, things weren't in turmoil and you were biting your tongue.
So I would ask because you were so wrong then, why we should think you are right now? Furthermore, who is replacing him?
This kind of personal vendetta garbage ruins the boards. The references to arguments from years ago and past slights are completely unnecessary and add no value here. Be an adult and learn to just ignore dissenting opinions sometimes. This is ridiculous. Quoting a post from 5 years ago? Move on, bro.
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This kind of personal vendetta garbage ruins the boards. The references to arguments from years ago and past slights are completely unnecessary and add no value here. Be an adult and learn to just ignore dissenting opinions sometimes. This is ridiculous. Quoting a post from 5 years ago? Move on, bro.
It's not a personal vendetta at all, there are some people that have always not wanted him and how is that not germane to the conversation? NeverWojoer who hid for most years when things were going well, but comes out of the woodwork to pile on?
But if that is going to be the case and no one's past words are allowed...fine...then apply it equally to all posters.
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It's not a personal vendetta at all, there are some people that have always not wanted him and how is that not germane to the conversation? NeverWojoer who hid for most years when things were going well, but comes out of the woodwork to pile on?
But if that is going to be the case and no one's past words are allowed...fine...then apply it equally to all posters.
Chico, You need to take a break from this board, it’s driving you crazy!
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This kind of personal vendetta garbage ruins the boards. The references to arguments from years ago and past slights are completely unnecessary and add no value here. Be an adult and learn to just ignore dissenting opinions sometimes. This is ridiculous. Quoting a post from 5 years ago? Move on, bro.
If what he says is true it's pretty relevant. It's similar to what warriorchick posted about those showing up after losses and carpet bombing the board with negative comments. If the only time you care enough to comment about the team is after a loss, well.......... WTAF
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If what he says is true it's pretty relevant. It's similar to what warriorchick posted about those showing up after losses and carpet bombing the board with negative comments. If the only time you care enough to comment about the team is after a loss, well.......... WTAF
WhoaJoe2020, am I getting under your skin? I love jerking your chain! :)
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Chico, You need to take a break from this board, it’s driving you crazy!
It's an escape....I have so many other real-world things that do make me crazy, allowing for 20 minutes in the morning on Scoop and an hour at night to get away from the real world craziness.....this is therapy.
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Chico, You need to take a break from this board, it’s driving you crazy!
+1000000000000000000000000 hahahahaha
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WhoaJoe2020, am I getting under your skin? I love jerking your chain! :)
If what Cheeks says is true, I wouldn't be surprised if you have a bit of a sadistic streak........
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If what Cheeks says is true, I wouldn't be surprised if you have a bit of a sadistic streak........
It’s WhoaJoe, just pull his chain and watch him go! :)
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It’s WhoaJoe, just pull his chain and watch him go! :)
Poke.
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Arizona State that year was on a neutral court and they were 10-3 to start the season with losses to MU and Kentucky. They had beaten NC State, Creighton, a top 20 Texas A&M team, and Belmont during that opening stretch. There's a reason they won only 5 games after that 10-3 start....care to opine why?
Georgetown was an away, conference game.
You and others said we don't play hard down the stretch....that is demonstrably false or we wouldn't be 10-1 in OT games, as well winning so many others.
Let me ask you, what do YOU consider acceptable? Take a look at all the teams in our league the last 5 years...how many of them have glowing Big East records?
Going into this season and looking at the last four years, Marquette has the 4th most conference wins in the conference, which includes his second year which I still contend is a rebuilding year, but included anyway. Nova first, Xavier, Seton Hall, then us.
What I view as acceptable is a team that gives 100%, every minute of every game. A team the dives for loose balls every time. That refuses to back down no matter what the score.
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#4 is pretty dishonest. There's no way that 2018 was a collapse. In our last 7 games we went 5-2. It's true we lost to a bad DePaul team and that may have cost us a NCAA bid. Our other loss was on the road against SJU, who started 0-11 in conference and then beat Duke and finished the year 4-14.
In that end of season stretch, we beat #94 Georgetown on the road, #30 Creighton on the road, #26 SHU on the road, and #30 Creighton at home. That's 3 quad one and 1 quad two win in the last 7 games. 3 wins over NCAA teams. We were playing our best basketball at the end of the year in 2018, unfortunately we dug ourselves too large of a hole at the start of conference play.
Dishonest? Am I not telling the truth factually?
We can argue about the impact but those were horrible losses as the worst time.
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What I view as acceptable is a team that gives 100%, every minute of every game. A team the dives for loose balls every time. That refuses to back down no matter what the score.
We agree on this...we probably disagree on whether it is happening. I suspect all of us, including the coaches, want this.
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Dishonest? Am I not telling the truth factually?
We can argue about the impact but those were horrible losses as the worst time.
No 5-2 is not a collapse down the stretch. A stumble maybe, but not a collapse. Last year was a collapse. I swear, if people would just use the right terminology, things would improve 100% on this board.
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Is anyone else sick of seeing this topic at the top of this board? Ridiculous. You're either a fan of this team and root for their success or you aren't. If you're rooting for Wojo and therefore Marquette's failure then I don't have much in common with you. Most of you come off as spoiled brats.
There is nothing that separates a small-ish private school like Marquette from Gonzaga or Duke... or Dayton, Davidson...DePaul.
We have been blessed and fairly lucky with a lot of the success we have had in the past. It has put us in a very favorable spot going forward. We are able to attract great talent both at the athlete and coaching level. It's fine if you hate Wojo. He won't be here forever, but exaggerating his failures or successes doesn't help anybody. Careful what you ask for.
I've been a Nebraska football fan since 1994 and if there is one thing I know, if you keep firing winning coaches you'll run out of them very fast.
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Just because you pay absorbent tuition.....Does not guarantee you a spot in the tourney each year....
We have the best recruiting class coming in 15 - 20 years.....
The Hauser thing hurts....Part of that was on WOJO.....Part on the Hauser's and Markus.....
It is what it is.....
If you want to go to the tourney every year.....Apply to Duke (good luck) and pony up the 80K.....
That is the price of admission to the NCAA basketball tournament.....
Makes the 500K for 4 years at USC kind of cheap.....
Just talking like a parent who has two in college.....
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No 5-2 is not a collapse down the stretch. A stumble maybe, but not a collapse. Last year was a collapse. I swear, if people would just use the right terminology, things would improve 100% on this board.
In my opinion losing to those teams in February is a collapse. It was inexcusable that it happened and that team should have won those games easily.
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Just because you pay absorbent tuition.....Does not guarantee you a spot in the tourney each year....
We have the best recruiting class coming in 15 - 20 years.....
The Hauser thing hurts....Part of that was on WOJO.....Part on the Hauser's and Markus.....
It is what it is.....
If you want to go to the tourney every year.....Apply to Duke (good luck) and pony up the 80K.....
That is the price of admission to the NCAA basketball tournament.....
Makes the 500K for 4 years at USC kind of cheap....
Just talking like a parent who has two in college.....
I don't think dollar bills soak up that much water...
A week or saw ago I got auto corrected into saying that Theo John was a "breast", it happens.
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Is anyone else sick of seeing this topic at the top of this board? Ridiculous. You're either a fan of this team and root for their success or you aren't. If you're rooting for Wojo and therefore Marquette's failure then I don't have much in common with you. Most of you come off as spoiled brats.
There is nothing that separates a small-ish private school like Marquette from Gonzaga or Duke... or Dayton, Davidson...DePaul.
We have been blessed and fairly lucky with a lot of the success we have had in the past. It has put us in a very favorable spot going forward. We are able to attract great talent both at the athlete and coaching level. It's fine if you hate Wojo. He won't be here forever, but exaggerating his failures or successes doesn't help anybody. Careful what you ask for.
I've been a Nebraska football fan since 1994 and if there is one thing I know, if you keep firing winning coaches you'll run out of them very fast.
Amen Carl
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In my opinion losing to those teams in February is a collapse. It was inexcusable that it happened and that team should have won those games easily.
Come on. You don’t need to twist the logic here. Losses happen, especially in conference and especially on the road. 5-2 isn’t a collapse.
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Is anyone else sick of seeing this topic at the top of this board? Ridiculous. You're either a fan of this team and root for their success or you aren't. If you're rooting for Wojo and therefore Marquette's failure then I don't have much in common with you. Most of you come off as spoiled brats.
There is nothing that separates a small-ish private school like Marquette from Gonzaga or Duke... or Dayton, Davidson...DePaul.
We have been blessed and fairly lucky with a lot of the success we have had in the past. It has put us in a very favorable spot going forward. We are able to attract great talent both at the athlete and coaching level. It's fine if you hate Wojo. He won't be here forever, but exaggerating his failures or successes doesn't help anybody. Careful what you ask for.
I've been a Nebraska football fan since 1994 and if there is one thing I know, if you keep firing winning coaches you'll run out of them very fast.
Yes. May as well call it wojoscoop. I also think the term nojo is incredibly lame.
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Come on. You don’t need to twist the logic here. Losses happen, especially in conference and especially on the road. 5-2 isn’t a collapse.
It's not logic. It's an opinion. The only factual part of it is the lousy record of the teams that beat us in February.
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It's not logic. It's an opinion. The only factual part of it is the lousy record of the teams that beat us in February.
It's inaccurate terminology or hyperbole.
Either way it leads to unnecessary arguments.
Use the right word in the first place and people might even agree with your point.
Example: Marquette stumbled at the end of the 2017-2018. season. I would agree with this statement.
Exaggeration: Marquette collapsed at the end of the 2017- 2018 season. I disagree with this statement.
Changing one word can lead to dramatically different results.
Think about it.
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It's not logic. It's an opinion. The only factual part of it is the lousy record of the teams that beat us in February.
But we also had 4 wins in that stretch against tournament teams. 2 of them on the road.
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It's inaccurate terminology or hyperbole.
Either way it leads to unnecessary arguments.
Use the right word in the first place and people might even agree with your point.
Example: Marquette stumbled at the end of the 2017-2018. season. I would agree with this statement.
Exaggeration: Marquette collapsed at the end of the 2017- 2018 season. I disagree with this statement.
Changing one word can lead to dramatically different results.
Think about it.
I wouldn't even agree with stumbled. We went from 13-10 to 19-12. We improved as the season went on, even if that included a bad loss to DePaul.
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I wouldn't even agree with stumbled. We went from 13-10 to 19-12. We improved as the season went on, even if that included a bad loss to DePaul.
Two losses in very winnable games at the end of the season that cost Marquette an invitation to the tournament could accurately be described as a stumble at the end of the 2017-2018 season.
Minimization is as bad as hyperbole, and equally inaccurate .
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Two losses in very winnable games at the end of the season that cost Marquette an invitation to the tournament could accurately be described as a stumble at the end of the 2017-2018 season.
Minimization is as bad as hyperbole, and equally inaccurate .
Those two losses definitely cost us a tournament bid. I'm not trying to minimize them. Individually, each one was a bad result (although I believe we were underdogs @SJU)
I'm just trying to look at it as a whole. We played our hottest stretch of basketball in the last 7 games. If you go back to when we were 4-7 in conference with 4 games left against tournament teams and 4 of the final 7 on the road, I don't think anyone was predicting a 5-2 finish.
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#Not
https://www.breezejmu.org/sports/does-defense-win-ncaa-basketball-championships/article_edde0c66-261f-11e8-bc8a-5bf692f16fe2.html
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1567816-blueprint-of-an-ncaa-basketball-champion
https://www.vuhoops.com/villanova-basketball/2018/2/8/16986218/villanova-basketball-what-does-kenpom-tell-us-about-past-champions
wtf? You post a belcher report article... and then other articles that argue AGAINST you? lol
https://the-cauldron.com/defense-does-not-win-championships-69887aa968dc
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/offense-may-be-more-important-than-defense-in-ncaa-tournament/
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But we also had 4 wins in that stretch against tournament teams. 2 of them on the road.
I am having trouble finding your four wins.
In 2017-2018 the BE sent six teams to the NCAAs. Villanova and Xavier were #1 seeds. Seton Hall and Creighton were #8 seeds, while Butler and Providence were #10 seeds. Starting in February, MU beat Seton Hall, Creighton (twice), St. John's and Georgetown (in OT). That adds up to three wins vs. tournament teams (Seton Hall and 2x Creighton).
Overall, against the teams that got an NCAA bid, MU had a 5-7 record in 2017-2018.
Looking deeper, that year there was a three way tie for 3rd in the BE - Seton Hall, Creighton and Providence - all at 10-8. MU finished in a tie with Butler for 6th pace at 9-9.
The wins you reference - Seton Hall and Creighton - are decent wins but these teams were barely above 500 in conference. As I mentioned earlier, these weren't top half of the bracket teams in the selection committee's assessment. And the committee found Butler more worthy of a bid despite an identical record and the fact they staggered to the finish line, too (although one loss was in double OT away at St. Johns). Perhaps they got the bid due to the fact that they beat us twice.
From the start of February to the end of the regular season, we lost to terrible St. Johns and DePaul and needed OT to beat an equally awful Georgetown team. Then in the BE tournament, we squeezed past DePaul by 3 and then got blown out by Villanova by 24 (94 to 70).
Like I said, this is my opinion, but the struggle to beat and outright losses to bad teams and the blowout by Villanova in the BET (that I had actually forgotten) had a disproportionately large impact that more than offset the wins you reference.
Much like last year, MU had its destiny in its hands in 2017-2018 (should have been 11-7, not 9-9) and fell apart when it mattered. Same dog, different fleas.
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It's not logic. It's an opinion. The only factual part of it is the lousy record of the teams that beat us in February.
Fair enough, but I think most people would call you out on saying 5-2 finish is a collapse....opinion or not. And yes, I would agree it is not logical....fandom makes many things illogical.
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nm
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I wouldn't even agree with stumbled. We went from 13-10 to 19-12. We improved as the season went on, even if that included a bad loss to DePaul.
Yup, which is why when some show an upward trajectory from 9th place to 2nd place in 4 years or a KenPom in the 90's to the 30's....they don't see improvement because for some, 5-2 is collapsing. What can you do? Emotion trumps logic.
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wtf? You post a belcher report article... and then other articles that argue AGAINST you? lol
https://the-cauldron.com/defense-does-not-win-championships-69887aa968dc
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/offense-may-be-more-important-than-defense-in-ncaa-tournament/
From my first link, if you look at the table, the average adjusted defensive rank was 8.4. Further:
"From 2008 to 2017, the NCAA champions have averaged the third-best defense and the ninth-best offense. In other words, history says that the national champion will be a team with an elite defense and a potent offense."
From my third link:
"By no means am I saying that you need a top-20 offense and defense to win a championship. UConn won it all in 2014 with the 39th ranked AdjO and 10th ranked AdjD. However, based on the past 16 years, no team has won the championship and finished the year with a AdjD rating outside the top-20. Looking at the data from early February in seasons past, the lowest ranked defensive-efficiency was the 2015 Duke Blue Devils with their 48th ranked AdjD (they went on the finish ranked #11 in that category)."
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Hate the negative city on scoop. This topic should not be published.
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Those two losses definitely cost us a tournament bid. I'm not trying to minimize them. Individually, each one was a bad result (although I believe we were underdogs @SJU)
I'm just trying to look at it as a whole. We played our hottest stretch of basketball in the last 7 games. If you go back to when we were 4-7 in conference with 4 games left against tournament teams and 4 of the final 7 on the road, I don't think anyone was predicting a 5-2 finish.
The crazy thing , is that you and f/k/a are both right and wrong.
It wasn't a collapse AND those two losses had a significant impact on Marquette not making the tournament in the 2017-2018 season.
Marquette had a good finish but stumbled twice at the end of the 2017-2018 season. Those two stumbles likely cost Marquette an invitation to the NCAA tournament.
Not a COLLAPSE and not a STRONG finish.
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I am having trouble finding your four wins.
In 2017-2018 the BE sent six teams to the NCAAs. Villanova and Xavier were #1 seeds. Seton Hall and Creighton were #8 seeds, while Butler and Providence were #10 seeds. Starting in February, MU beat Seton Hall, Creighton (twice), St. John's and Georgetown (in OT). That adds up to three wins vs. tournament teams (Seton Hall and 2x Creighton).
Overall, against the teams that got an NCAA bid, MU had a 5-7 record in 2017-2018.
Looking deeper, that year there was a three way tie for 3rd in the BE - Seton Hall, Creighton and Providence - all at 10-8. MU finished in a tie with Butler for 6th pace at 9-9.
The wins you reference - Seton Hall and Creighton - are decent wins but these teams were barely above 500 in conference. As I mentioned earlier, these weren't top half of the bracket teams in the selection committee's assessment. And the committee found Butler more worthy of a bid despite an identical record and the fact they staggered to the finish line, too (although one loss was in double OT away at St. Johns). Perhaps they got the bid due to the fact that they beat us twice.
From the start of February to the end of the regular season, we lost to terrible St. Johns and DePaul and needed OT to beat an equally awful Georgetown team. Then in the BE tournament, we squeezed past DePaul by 3 and then got blown out by Villanova by 24 (94 to 70).
Like I said, this is my opinion, but the struggle to beat and outright losses to bad teams and the blowout by Villanova in the BET (that I had actually forgotten) had a disproportionately large impact that more than offset the wins you reference.
Much like last year, MU had its destiny in its hands in 2017-2018 (should have been 11-7, not 9-9) and fell apart when it mattered. Same dog, different fleas.
You are correct on the bolded. For some reason I lumped in the win @ Providence in the 5-2 stretch. My apologies.
We were one marquee win away from getting in the tournament that year. I remember being upset that Providence, Creighton and SHU were all safely in and we were left out despite going 5-1 against that group. But each of those 3 had a marquee win that we didn't earn.
I just don't see how you can truly believe we should have been 11-7 that year. You expected us to win our last 7 despite only being favored in 3-4 of those games? If you believe that, then okay we can agree to disagree. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.
If you think we should have won earlier games so we didn't have to win our last 7, then we didn't collapse.
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The crazy thing , is that you and f/k/a are both right and wrong.
It wasn't a collapse AND those two losses had a significant impact on Marquette not making the tournament in the 2017-2018 season.
Marquette had a good finish but stumbled twice at the end of the 2017-2018 season. Those two stumbles likely cost Marquette an invitation to the NCAA tournament.
Not a COLLAPSE and not a STRONG finish.
Yeah, it's mostly just semantics. I have no issue with F/k/a. We disagree often but he also is clearly not a troll. We just look at things differently and that's not an issue.
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There are some here who will never be satisfied under Wojo. They've been against the hire from day 1 and refuse to change their stance, regardless of win/loss record. I truly believe that. If wojo won the conference in 3 of the next 5 seasons and went sweet 16 or better in that same time period, they would be thrilled with the success of MU, but if you talked to them privately, they'd still say they don't like wojo. Happy with MU success, sure. But don't like Wojo. And they'll pounce at the next chance they get.
They say things like "I hope to be proven wrong." But I don't believe that either.
Of course, they can't root for him to fail without being portrayed as anti-MU. So, they hope for success and him being poached. However, if he's successful here, that's only going to make the admin/BOT dig in harder on supporting him. Quite the catch-22.
I wish those guys would just come out and say they don't like Wojo and want him gone no matter the success/failure of MU. Draw the line in the sand. But they won't.
I think this is 100% wrong. I think there are a lot of people who are tiring of the lack of progress under Wojo. We kept hearing that the future is bright and the first two big years we were gunning for featured a collapse, an exodus of top players and a bubbly-looking start to the second year. I was Pro-Wojo until March of last year and am in the not sure group now, but I completely understand the attitude of the anti-Wojo faction at this point. If he wins the Big East or gets a high seed accompanied by an NCAA run, you'd see a marked lessening of the criticisms. He's been here a long time now without accomplishing much of anything.
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I think this is 100% wrong. I think there are a lot of people who are tiring of the lack of progress under Wojo. We kept hearing that the future is bright and the first two big years we were gunning for featured a collapse, an exodus of top players and a bubbly-looking start to the second year. I was Pro-Wojo until March of last year and am in the not sure group now, but I completely understand the attitude of the anti-Wojo faction at this point. If he wins the Big East or gets a high seed accompanied by an NCAA run, you'd see a marked lessening of the criticisms. He's been here a long time now without accomplishing much of anything.
I agree with the bulk of your post. Winning cures most/all ills.
However, there are absolutely posters here who want wojo gone no matter what. And have wanted that since day 1. For example, curbina.
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The crazy thing , is that you and f/k/a are both right and wrong.
It wasn't a collapse AND those two losses had a significant impact on Marquette not making the tournament in the 2017-2018 season.
Marquette had a good finish but stumbled twice at the end of the 2017-2018 season. Those two stumbles likely cost Marquette an invitation to the NCAA tournament.
Not a COLLAPSE and not a STRONG finish.
I can live with this. :)
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You are correct on the bolded. For some reason I lumped in the win @ Providence in the 5-2 stretch. My apologies.
We were one marquee win away from getting in the tournament that year. I remember being upset that Providence, Creighton and SHU were all safely in and we were left out despite going 5-1 against that group. But each of those 3 had a marquee win that we didn't earn.
I just don't see how you can truly believe we should have been 11-7 that year. You expected us to win our last 7 despite only being favored in 3-4 of those games? If you believe that, then okay we can agree to disagree. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.
If you think we should have won earlier games so we didn't have to win our last 7, then we didn't collapse.
I got to 11-7 by winning the St. Johns and DePaul games. I think we can agree that they were very winnable games.
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I agree with the bulk of your post. Winning cures most/all ills.
However, there are absolutely posters here who want wojo gone no matter what. And have wanted that since day 1. For example, curbina.
I am clearly a "nojo" and at the same time think it's sad that Jesmu84 is right regarding some people's feelings on Wojo.
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Im sorry, but isn't this enough on this stupid topic??? Can the mods in their infinite wisdom, Please close this thread?? :P 8-)
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I think this is 100% wrong. I think there are a lot of people who are tiring of the lack of progress under Wojo. We kept hearing that the future is bright and the first two big years we were gunning for featured a collapse, an exodus of top players and a bubbly-looking start to the second year. I was Pro-Wojo until March of last year and am in the not sure group now, but I completely understand the attitude of the anti-Wojo faction at this point. If he wins the Big East or gets a high seed accompanied by an NCAA run, you'd see a marked lessening of the criticisms. He's been here a long time now without accomplishing much of anything.
Every situation and every program is different.
While some see Marquettes 2nd place finish in the BEast and a 5 seed in the tournament as a sign of improvement, others don't. While some see a top ten recruiting class as a sign of encouragement, others don't. While some see a team still competing despite the unforced exodus of two key players, others don't.
Some think Wojo and Marquette should be held to the same standard as the blue blood coaches and programs, or cherry picked example of more successful coaches and programs, others think that's unfair and unrealistic.
Looking objectively at the totality of Wojos tenure, including next years recruiting class, an argument can be made that he has earned more time.
If no argument could be made for giving Wojo more time it would be OBVIOUS to EVERYONE that he should be let go.
Sincerely yours, Captain Obvious
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Im sorry, but isn't this enough on this stupid topic??? Can the mods in their infinite wisdom, Please close this thread?? :P 8-)
On behalf of everyone who forced you to read it, our apologies.
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Someone seems cranky we won again today...
That post is a week old. Quit picking fights. You ruin this site day after day. Just stop.