MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cheeks on December 13, 2019, 08:09:53 PM

Title: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 13, 2019, 08:09:53 PM
Happened today....good to see. Keep them coming NCAA.  Good job. 


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28292856/usc-gets-notice-allegations-ncaa-tied-federal-probe
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 13, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
This kind of news might get half the USC alums to realize they have a basketball team.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 13, 2019, 11:38:10 PM
  "Former Trojans assistant coach Tony Bland pleaded guilty in January to one felony count of conspiracy to commit bribery, admitting he accepted $4,100 in cash to steer players at the school to certain financial advisers and business managers once they turned pro."


   $4,100?  was that missing a few more zeros?  cheezus, that's not even worth the bother.  if i was tony, i'd go to usc and ask them for another $4k in salary so he doesn't have to do anything stupid
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 14, 2019, 12:54:41 AM
Happened today....good to see. Keep them coming NCAA.  Good job. 


https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28292856/usc-gets-notice-allegations-ncaa-tied-federal-probe

Sure. Let’s see what actually happens.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 01:00:07 AM
 I am enjoying the NCAA summers.

#crapshoot
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 01:21:23 AM
I am enjoying the NCAA summers.

#crapshoot

More to come.  Arizona I suspect is next.  #NCAAonlygoesafterlittlefish
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 06:15:19 AM
The NCAA is worthless
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 14, 2019, 09:54:53 AM
The NCAA is worthless

Pretty much a joke. My guess is handslaps at best for the programs he mentions.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 10:54:27 AM
The NCAA is worthless

For the MILLIONS of alumni over the last 100+ years that earned a degree, competed, etc....you couldn't be more wrong.  They have plenty of faults, have failed badly in some areas, but far succeeded more than failed and it isn't even close.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 10:57:01 AM
For the MILLIONS of alumni over the last 100+ years that earned a degree, competed, etc....you couldn't be more wrong.  They have plenty of faults, have failed badly in some areas, but far succeeded more than failed and it isn't even close.

The NCAA is worthless
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Loose Cannon on December 14, 2019, 11:00:32 AM
Sure. Let’s see what actually happens.

Yep, way too early to be taking Bows. Fool me once.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 11:05:37 AM
Pretty much a joke. My guess is handslaps at best for the programs he mentions.

Yeah, we'll just ignore the major punishments against USC, Kentucky, Penn State, Michigan, Louisville, etc, etc, etc

The memories here are really concerning.


And of course the tired and completely bullshyte argument that some smaller school is hit instead of a larger school has been blown out of the water countless times.  Most recently in this independent study....but hey, Jerry Tarkanian said it so it must be true because Jerry was the epicenter of truthfulness.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/01/20/study-infraction-penalties-consistent-across-ncaa-conferences

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
Yep, way too early to be taking Bows. Fool me once.

First people bitch about the NCAA not bringing charges quickly enough.  Then when they do, they bitch about the punishment. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 11:26:33 AM
First people bitch about the NCAA not bringing charges quickly enough.  Then when they do, they bitch about the punishment.

That’s because the NCAA is worthless
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: real chili 83 on December 14, 2019, 11:28:33 AM
That’s because the NCAA is worthless

ND sucks
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Loose Cannon on December 14, 2019, 11:29:41 AM
First people bitch about the NCAA not bringing charges quickly enough.  Then when they do, they bitch about the punishment.

Your right they do.  But these are two different steps and people can have opinions on one or both.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 11:32:18 AM
That’s because the NCAA is worthless

If it were, then no punishments would be handed out....but many have.  Because you don't like the timing or the fact their hands are often tied because of jurisdiction and lack of subpoena power is fine, but they aren't worthless.  Making such a claim is...well...worthless.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 11:32:51 AM
Your right they do.  But these are two different steps and people can have opinions on one or both.

Absolutely, and people can have other opinions to push back and bring facts to bear to back them up.   ;)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Loose Cannon on December 14, 2019, 11:39:21 AM
Absolutely, and people can have other opinions to push back and bring facts to bear to back them up.   ;)

I agree with that, and also that the NCAA is necessary.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 11:40:55 AM
First people bitch about the NCAA not bringing charges quickly enough.  Then when they do, they bitch about the punishment.

We bitch about the timing because Stan Wilcox, the head of the NCAA infraction investigations, promised that the violations would be issued before the end of summer (and before the start of the season). Instead, seven of the alleged implicated schools are in Pomeroy’s Top 30...and that’s not counting the Nike schools who also had allegations or Creighton.

Incredibly, the cartel member schools with the most egregiously alleged behaviors like Self, Wade and Miller, still gainfully employ, promote and defend these loyal street soldiers.

(https://cf-images.us-east-1.prod.boltdns.net/v1/static/5502557046001/1d47ee66-ce1a-4c5b-9500-83187f058847/954e45a3-3067-4ef8-a5f3-778bf0ce2dc6/1280x720/match/image.jpg)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 14, 2019, 11:50:22 AM
Threat level midnight for USC!!!! Lol I’m sure the vacated wins from previous seasons and a loss of a scholarship or two will really teach them!
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 14, 2019, 12:01:26 PM
That’s because the NCAA is worthless
He's right. And the moon landing was faked. I read it on the internet.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 12:09:17 PM
This kind of news might get half the USC alums to realize they have a basketball team.

LOL.  Yup
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 12:20:35 PM
The NCAA is worthless
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: wadesworld on December 14, 2019, 12:41:02 PM
Threat level midnight for USC!!!! Lol I’m sure the vacated wins from previous seasons and a loss of a scholarship or two will really teach them!

Bingo.

Just another hill for Cheeks to die on.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 01:35:41 PM
Bingo.

Just another hill for Cheeks to die on.

They might even lose a year in the NCAA tournament.  It took Louisville almost two years to be ranked number 1 again after that. 

The NCAA is incapable of policing its members
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 14, 2019, 01:40:20 PM
Yeah, we'll just ignore the major punishments against USC, Kentucky, Penn State, Michigan, Louisville, etc, etc, etc

Yeah, these programs are really suffering.  Cheating doesn't pay, guys!

Keep shilling for the man, Cheeks.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 14, 2019, 02:23:13 PM
The NCAA is worthless

Something my coach used to say is quite relevant here: “opinions are like azz holes, everybody has one. But you’re still wrong.”
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jonny09 on December 14, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
Yeah, these programs are really suffering.  Cheating doesn't pay, guys!

Keep shilling for the man, Cheeks.

Easy on cheeks.  He’s been getting paid a lot of money for the past 45 years working in the sports field.  He knows.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 14, 2019, 03:12:44 PM
They might even lose a year in the NCAA tournament.  It took Louisville almost two years to be ranked number 1 again after that. 

The NCAA is incapable of policing its members
We all know the NCAA is not perfect. But you do know Louisville lost a Championship and is looking at even more serious violations and sanctions?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 03:22:41 PM
We all know the NCAA is not perfect. But you do know Louisville lost a Championship and is looking at even more serious violations and sanctions?

Yes, the fans and alum are mourning that loss and getting rid of all memorabilia of that season.  Recruits have avoided the school in droves because of it.  If you think they “lost” a championship, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

As for more sanctions, I’m sure they’ll never recover.  NCAA sanctions historically cripple programs for decades.  It’s often a great deterrent and other programs look at the carnage make sure something like that doesn’t happen at their institution.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jesmu84 on December 14, 2019, 03:27:55 PM
If it were, then no punishments would be handed out....but many have.  Because you don't like the timing or the fact their hands are often tied because of jurisdiction and lack of subpoena power is fine, but they aren't worthless.  Making such a claim is...well...worthless.

Does that matter at all anymore?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 14, 2019, 04:07:53 PM
Yes, the fans and alum are mourning that loss and getting rid of all memorabilia of that season.  Recruits have avoided the school in droves because of it.  If you think they “lost” a championship, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

As for more sanctions, I’m sure they’ll never recover.  NCAA sanctions historically cripple programs for decades.  It’s often a great deterrent and other programs look at the carnage make sure something like that doesn’t happen at their institution.

Bingo
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 14, 2019, 04:14:47 PM
The NCAA isn't worthless. I quite enjoy college sports and they are the body responsible for managing them. Without the NCAA, college sports wouldn't be what they are today. Saying their worthless is like saying Wojo doesn't deserve any credit when the team is doing well.

The NCAA also has shortcomings and can be improved. Denying this and deflecting blame is like saying Wojo is the perfect coach and is beyond reproach.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 04:25:33 PM
The NCAA isn't worthless. I quite enjoy college sports and they are the body responsible for managing them. Without the NCAA, college sports wouldn't be what they are today. Saying their worthless is like saying Wojo doesn't deserve any credit when the team is doing well.

The NCAA also has shortcomings and can be improved. Denying this and deflecting blame is like saying Wojo is the perfect coach and is beyond reproach.

I would generally agree with this. However, if they (cartel members) really wanted to clean-up their sports, they would fully fund the enforcement staff and increase the penalties for the grey market economy.  The other option is to allow pay for play. The NCAA doesn't really want either, and that is why it is a failed organization to many of us.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 05:50:01 PM
Yeah, these programs are really suffering.  Cheating doesn't pay, guys!

Keep shilling for the man, Cheeks.

The goal isn’t to kill them, Pakuni.  USC still hasn’t recovered in football.  Penn State was in the wilderness for years.  Etc. If people don’t think ripping down that Louisville title doesn’t sting you all are out to lunch.  Same for Michigan’s Final Four.

I’m sorry they didn’t castrate each player and disembowel the coaches / boosters...but they paid and some still haven’t recovered.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 05:51:24 PM
We bitch about the timing because Stan Wilcox, the head of the NCAA infraction investigations, promised that the violations would be issued before the end of summer (and before the start of the season). Instead, seven of the alleged implicated schools are in Pomeroy’s Top 30...and that’s not counting the Nike schools who also had allegations or Creighton.

Incredibly, the cartel member schools with the most egregiously alleged behaviors like Self, Wade and Miller, still gainfully employ, promote and defend these loyal street soldiers.

(https://cf-images.us-east-1.prod.boltdns.net/v1/static/5502557046001/1d47ee66-ce1a-4c5b-9500-83187f058847/954e45a3-3067-4ef8-a5f3-778bf0ce2dc6/1280x720/match/image.jpg)

False.  Already proven to be false the last time we went through this and you keep going down this path.  Read the quote he said...the full quote, not the one wrongly quoted by some news outlets, but the full unedited quote.



“The NCAA continues to investigate potential rules violations stemming from the Southern District of New York allegations and subsequent court proceedings. We are aggressively and thoroughly pursuing information and using all tools available to us through the NCAA infractions process," the NCAA said in a statement. "As a result, we expect that at least six Division I men's basketball programs will receive NCAA notice of allegations within the coming months, and likely additional schools thereafter. Colleges and universities have a responsibility to run their athletics programs within NCAA rules. Our membership expects us to hold accountable those who fail to do so."

The schools that could receive notices of allegations were not identified.

Stan Wilcox, the NCAA's vice president of regulatory affairs, told CBS Sports on Wednesday at an athletic directors conference in Orlando, Florida, that two programs might receive notices of allegations by early July and that four more probably will receive them by the end of the summer.”
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 05:52:50 PM
Easy on cheeks.  He’s been getting paid a lot of money for the past 45 years working in the sports field.  He knows.


How’s Jayce Johnson doing this year?

And no, 45 years ago I was living in South America and attending school as a child before moving back to the USA.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 05:53:55 PM
Does that matter at all anymore?

Of course it does.  Why wouldn’t it?  If you cannot compel people to testify that is a huge disadvantage.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 14, 2019, 05:55:50 PM
Crean sucks
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 06:08:58 PM
Crean sucks

God Bless the State of Wisconsin
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jonny09 on December 14, 2019, 06:18:22 PM

How’s Jayce Johnson doing this year?

And no, 45 years ago I was living in South America and attending school as a child before moving back to the USA.


Jayce is awful.  And cmon cheeks, we all know you are a 75 year old man still grinding it out in “the sports business”
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 06:29:19 PM

Jayce is awful.  And cmon cheeks, we all know you are a 75 year old man still grinding it out in “the sports business”

Not awful...your expertise exposed long ago on this.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jonny09 on December 14, 2019, 06:31:06 PM
Not awful...your expertise exposed long ago on this.
[/quote

Nope.  Not convincing anyone yet.  Keep trying old man
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 14, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
Yes, the fans and alum are mourning that loss and getting rid of all memorabilia of that season.  Recruits have avoided the school in droves because of it.  If you think they “lost” a championship, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

As for more sanctions, I’m sure they’ll never recover.  NCAA sanctions historically cripple programs for decades.  It’s often a great deterrent and other programs look at the carnage make sure something like that doesn’t happen at their institution.
You obviously have never met a Louisville fan. They hate the NCAA and want to sue both the NCAA and their own BoT over the lost Title. It is a huge deal to UofL fans and UK fans remind them of it constantly, which makes it even worse for them.

As for the program rebounding  quickly, that will happen when there is so much money and great facilities at some of these programs. The NCAA can't squash UofL into NJIT.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 06:38:57 PM
The goal isn’t to kill them, Pakuni.  USC still hasn’t recovered in football.  Penn State was in the wilderness for years.  Etc. If people don’t think ripping down that Louisville title doesn’t sting you all are out to lunch.  Same for Michigan’s Final Four.

I’m sorry they didn’t castrate each player and disembowel the coaches / boosters...but they paid and some still haven’t recovered.

USC hasn’t recovered because they hired Lane Kiffin, Steve Sarkisian and Clay Helton. 

Penn State didn’t even have a losing season and won a Big Ten title 5 whole years after the events that should have ended their football program. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 06:42:20 PM

Nope.  Not convincing anyone yet.  Keep trying old man

LOL.  Keep convincing everyone here JJ is awful, you are doing an amazing job of it.  To the point half the board here wants JJ to start now.  Yup, you nailed this one.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 14, 2019, 06:44:24 PM
You obviously have never met a Louisville fan. They hate the NCAA and want to sue both the NCAA and their own BoT over the lost Title. It is a huge deal to UofL fans and UK fans remind them of it constantly, which makes it even worse for them.

As for the program rebounding  quickly, that will happen when there is so much money and great facilities at some of these programs. The NCAA can't squash UofL into NJIT.

They should hate the NCAA.  It’s a terrible organization.  I’m sure Louisville fans never bring up Kentucky basketball once getting the death penalty or the Eddie Sutton era or the Calipari’s vacated Final 4’s.  They can wipe their tears with a 2013 title banner or maybe towel
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jonny09 on December 14, 2019, 06:44:40 PM
LOL.  Keep convincing everyone here JJ is awful, you are doing an amazing job of it.  To the point half the board here wants JJ to start now.  Yup, you nailed this one.


Nope...  Still not close.  Your basketball knowledge has become even more underwhelming if that is even possible.  What else ya got??   We’re all waiting.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 08:05:04 PM
USC hasn’t recovered because they hired Lane Kiffin, Steve Sarkisian and Clay Helton. 

Penn State didn’t even have a losing season and won a Big Ten title 5 whole years after the events that should have ended their football program.

Because USC was on probation and great coaches scared off....this another result of the punishment.  Nevertheless the reality is Kiffin was considered a hot hire, Sark also from Washington.  The penalties USC suffered in scholarship reductions hurt them badly and took time to get back up to speed.

Penn State had 2 years at 7-6 and one at 7-5....wandering in the wilderness.

Michigan basketball went through 6 years of no post season.

I can go on and on.   Sure, some rebound faster, but let’s not pretend the punishment doesn’t hurt and some schools take years to get back....if ever.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 08:36:05 PM
But, then there is UNC, Miami, Duke (jewelry). Coach Cal?  Two time violator, no show cause. How many times has Bruce been caught cheating now? I have lost count but he keeps on his game that's for sure. I can go on and on and on.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 14, 2019, 09:50:20 PM
But, then there is UNC, Miami, Duke (jewelry). Coach Cal?  Two time violator, no show cause. How many times has Bruce been caught cheating now? I have lost count but he keeps on his game that's for sure. I can go on and on and on.

Cal is not a two time violator...we cannot be allowed to have our own set of facts.  As much as I think he is dirty, there is no evidence linking him to it.

Miami got put on probation several times.

Duke jewelry, you know the evidence wasn’t there as much as people want it to be.  UNC has been beaten to death...no jurisdiction by NCAA and for good reason. 

No question some schools have gotten away with stuff...no question. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 14, 2019, 09:54:48 PM
Coach Cal has had two Final Four appearances vacated by the NCAA.  Whether or not you choose to believe that he had nothing to do with either, and my opinion is that he had nothing to do with the first, but plenty to do with the second, is up to you.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 09:58:07 PM
Cal is not a two time violator...we cannot be allowed to have our own set of facts.  As much as I think he is dirty, there is no evidence linking him to it.

Miami got put on probation several times.

Duke jewelry, you know the evidence wasn’t there as much as people want it to be.  UNC has been beaten to death...no jurisdiction by NCAA and for good reason. 

No question some schools have gotten away with stuff...no question.

Hmmm...UMASS + Memphis = 2 for Cal. Cheeks' math at work again.

Miami football investigation?  A total NCAA cluster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

Duke + UNC = Crapshoot

And on and on and on
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 14, 2019, 10:19:57 PM
The NCAA isn't worthless. I quite enjoy college sports and they are the body responsible for managing them. Without the NCAA, college sports wouldn't be what they are today. Saying their worthless is like saying Wojo doesn't deserve any credit when the team is doing well.

The NCAA also has shortcomings and can be improved. Denying this and deflecting blame is like saying Wojo is the perfect coach and is beyond reproach.

Agreed completely.  Uncle Rico is advocating for, ....actually I don’t know what he is advocating for.  Are there regulations and rules that you are for and others your are not?  Should any team be able to do whatever they want?  Besides saying they are worthless, what would you do differently?  What would you recommend as a governing body.  Do you not want an NCAA tournament?  Do you think all teams should be in?  Should all teams be able to claim a championship win or lose?  Should we say some teams can travel and others can’t?  Do you want an attempt at an even playing field or do you want complete anarchy?  What do you want? Do you even like college basketball because there are rules and a governing body? 

Honestly, I don’t know how you’d answer any of these these questions.  You are just repetitive with the NCAA sucks mantra. 

My opinion:  The NCAA is inherently imperfect but not close to useless.  They are doing the job they have been asked to do.  If the schools change major policies on recruiting and eligibility issues the NCAA will adapt based on an edict from their membership.   Until then, they represent the Universities who formed them and the University we all root for.  It’s not that hard of a concept.   
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: jonny09 on December 14, 2019, 10:21:08 PM
Hmmm...UMASS + Memphis = 2 for Cal. Cheeks' math at work again.

Miami football investigation?  A total NCAA cluster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

Duke + UNC = Crapshoot

And on and on and on

Cheeks is Well known in the sports community.  He’s been making a lot of money in his field for a long time. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 10:30:07 PM
Coach Cal has had two Final Four appearances vacated by the NCAA.  Whether or not you choose to believe that he had nothing to do with either, and my opinion is that he had nothing to do with the first, but plenty to do with the second, is up to you.

More on the first.  I think you are wrong.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/sports/ncaabasketball/coach-caliparis-wonderful-life-begin-the-disclaimers.amp.html
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 14, 2019, 10:43:41 PM
Because USC was on probation and great coaches scared off....this another result of the punishment.  Nevertheless the reality is Kiffin was considered a hot hire, Sark also from Washington.  The penalties USC suffered in scholarship reductions hurt them badly and took time to get back up to speed.

Penn State had 2 years at 7-6 and one at 7-5....wandering in the wilderness.

Michigan basketball went through 6 years of no post season.

I can go on and on.   Sure, some rebound faster, but let’s not pretend the punishment doesn’t hurt and some schools take years to get back....if ever.

You do go on and on, and on  and on.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2019, 11:02:28 PM

I can go on and on.   Sure, some rebound faster, but let’s not pretend the punishment doesn’t hurt and some schools take years to get back....if ever.

Yep. Look how much MU has struggled to get back from the sanctions that came after all those “other shoes” dropped.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 14, 2019, 11:46:10 PM
You do go on and on, and on  and on.
(http://www.abbaomnibus.net/images/singles/103719.jpg)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Jables1604 on December 15, 2019, 12:20:32 AM
False.  Already proven to be false the last time we went through this and you keep going down this path.  Read the quote he said...the full quote, not the one wrongly quoted by some news outlets, but the full unedited quote.

Listen, I have no animosity toward anyone on this board. I find 99% of it entertaining. Cheeks and I had some common buddies at Marquette. However, the fact that you have the balls to call someone out by referencing a “full quote” after that post you made concerning the reporter in the Richard Jewell movie wherein you selectively included portions of quotes made about her either shows a complete lack of self-awareness or the fact that you are a total hypocrite.

I mean lecturing someone about reading a full quote after completely omitting portions of a quote that give a commentary context? Get real bro.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: brewcity77 on December 15, 2019, 03:07:52 AM
Listen, I have no animosity toward anyone on this board. I find 99% of it entertaining. Cheeks and I had some common buddies at Marquette. However, the fact that you have the balls to call someone out by referencing a “full quote” after that post you made concerning the reporter in the Richard Jewell movie wherein you selectively included portions of quotes made about her either shows a complete lack of self-awareness or the fact that you are a total hypocrite.

I mean lecturing someone about reading a full quote after completely omitting portions of a quote that give a commentary context? Get real bro.

This x1,000.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: dgies9156 on December 15, 2019, 07:36:45 AM
The NCAA has a thankless job. They're doing it thanklessly.

Look, the NCAA always has been political. Look no further than our own history with the basketball division. The whole issue of Adolph Rupp sending us to the NCAA Midwest in 1970, which prompted us going to the NIT; the whole Bob Lackey contract mess in 1972 and even the Maurice Lucas matter in 1974, when Marquette was prepared to sue the the NCAA to get Maurice Lucas back for his senior season (he took the money anyway and went pro).

For those of you who don't think the NCAA is political, go back and listen to Coach McGuire's tirade following the Kansas State game in 1977. I think it speaks for itself.

Since Coach McGuire left, with rare exception we have not been the object of the NCAA's scorn. The reason: we haven't been good enough or controversial enough to warrant it!
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 07:44:49 AM
Al's perceived victimization by the NCAA cost MU the chance to compete for the 1970 title.  It was not one of his finer qualities.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 🏀 on December 15, 2019, 08:16:00 AM
Listen, I have no animosity toward anyone on this board. I find 99% of it entertaining. Cheeks and I had some common buddies at Marquette. However, the fact that you have the balls to call someone out by referencing a “full quote” after that post you made concerning the reporter in the Richard Jewell movie wherein you selectively included portions of quotes made about her either shows a complete lack of self-awareness or the fact that you are a total hypocrite.

I mean lecturing someone about reading a full quote after completely omitting portions of a quote that give a commentary context? Get real bro.



Well done.

If only Chicos could get banned for a week for every hypocrisy, we’d never have to deal with him.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 09:38:30 AM
Listen, I have no animosity toward anyone on this board. I find 99% of it entertaining. Cheeks and I had some common buddies at Marquette. However, the fact that you have the balls to call someone out by referencing a “full quote” after that post you made concerning the reporter in the Richard Jewell movie wherein you selectively included portions of quotes made about her either shows a complete lack of self-awareness or the fact that you are a total hypocrite.

I mean lecturing someone about reading a full quote after completely omitting portions of a quote that give a commentary context? Get real bro.

LOL

How did I selectively include portions of quotes on Richard Jewell? 

Secondly, the issue with the NCAA school punishment is that several posters here kept wrongly quoting a story that was inaccurately written in the media...the journalist left those key words I put in red out of the article.  I showed the comparison back in September how one site got it right and the other didn’t.  That was my point.  Now, maybe the site I got the Richard Jewell quotes did the same thing and I don’t have other quotes, if so that’s fine and I am happy to be introduced to them....but I didn’t selectively quote anything.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 09:39:26 AM
Well done.

If only Chicos could get banned for a week for every hypocrisy, we’d never have to deal with him.

If on,y you were banned for anti-homosexual and anti-gay imagery in your avatar that is still allowed here, it would be a better place.  Please change it...offensive.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 09:40:18 AM
Hmmm...UMASS + Memphis = 2 for Cal. Cheeks' math at work again.

Miami football investigation?  A total NCAA cluster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

Duke + UNC = Crapshoot

And on and on and on

Was coach Cal implicated in either of them?

Miami has been punished multiple times.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 09:41:48 AM
The goal isn’t to kill them, Pakuni.  USC still hasn’t recovered in football.  Penn State was in the wilderness for years.  Etc. If people don’t think ripping down that Louisville title doesn’t sting you all are out to lunch.  Same for Michigan’s Final Four.

I’m sorry they didn’t castrate each player and disembowel the coaches / boosters...but they paid and some still haven’t recovered.

USC hasn't recovered from poor coaching decisions. The sanctions are well behind them.
Penn State's "years of wilderness" saw them suffering zero losing seasons after the Paterno thing blew up, in a bowl game two years after that, and back in the top 10 within five years. Such suffering.

And nobody cares about retroactively losing a Final Four appearance. It's as meaningless as it gets.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 09:49:37 AM
USC hasn't recovered from poor coaching decisions. The sanctions are well behind them.
Penn State's "years of wilderness" saw them suffering zero losing seasons after the Paterno thing blew up, in a bowl game two years after that, and back in the top 10 within five years. Such suffering.

And nobody cares about retroactively losing a Final Four appearance. It's as meaningless as it gets.

Penn State “wandered the wilderness” between 2000-04, when they actually missed bowl games and had losing seasons.

Anyone that thinks Penn State or any other NCAA member school learned anything from the wilderness wandering induced sanctions is deluding themselves.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 10:02:16 AM
USC hasn't recovered from poor coaching decisions. The sanctions are well behind them.
Penn State's "years of wilderness" saw them suffering zero losing seasons after the Paterno thing blew up, in a bowl game two years after that, and back in the top 10 within five years. Such suffering.

And nobody cares about retroactively losing a Final Four appearance. It's as meaningless as it gets.


Furthermore, the NCAA actually walked back some of Penn State's sanctions, which fed further into their victimhood. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 10:06:09 AM
USC hasn't recovered from poor coaching decisions. The sanctions are well behind them.
Penn State's "years of wilderness" saw them suffering zero losing seasons after the Paterno thing blew up, in a bowl game two years after that, and back in the top 10 within five years. Such suffering.

And nobody cares about retroactively losing a Final Four appearance. It's as meaningless as it gets.

USC lost a ton of scholarships and that could not be overcome by the coaches they hired, who have gone on to be SEC head coaches, Alabama offensive coordinator, etc.  Yes, let’s ignore all the scholarships lost and pretend it was all because of coaching.


USC vacated their national title...usc alumni here to this day remain bitter about it.  They lost 30 football scholarships, which is a massive hit.  Two year bowl ban....makes recruiting harder.  Etc, etc.

Nobody cares.  Hmm.  Care to take that one back?  Many examples, happy to provide.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 10:08:29 AM
Penn State “wandered the wilderness” between 2000-04, when they actually missed bowl games and had losing seasons.

Anyone that thinks Penn State or any other NCAA member school learned anything from the wilderness wandering induced sanctions is deluding themselves.

They absolutely did during that time...agreed.  Many wanted Joe Pa fired.  They recovered.  They again wandered in the wilderness after the NCAA came down on them.  Both are true.

You don’t think SMU learned anything?  Lol.  Happy to provide other examples.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 15, 2019, 10:55:50 AM
Hmmm...UMASS + Memphis = 2 for Cal. Cheeks' math at work again.

Miami football investigation?  A total NCAA cluster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

Duke + UNC = Crapshoot

And on and on and on

You do realize the NCAA, frustrated by the inability to get Shapiro to cooperate but wanting to nail them so bad is what led to the botched investigation, right?

Ask Michigan basketball about the impact of sanctions.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 11:08:09 AM
You do realize the NCAA, frustrated by the inability to get Shapiro to cooperate but wanting to nail them so bad is what led to the botched investigation, right?

Ask Michigan basketball about the impact of sanctions.

Smart Michigan fans don’t blame sanctions for Brian Ellerbee and Tommy Amaker. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:14:30 AM
Impact on loss of scholarships to football program...hmm.

Significant

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-usc-ncaa-sanctions-20140608-story.html

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/news/story?id=5271822


Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:18:40 AM
Smart Michigan fans don’t blame sanctions for Brian Ellerbee and Tommy Amaker.

Smart Michigan fans like smart USC fans and others know sanctions make it difficult to recruit, loss of scholarships means no depth or talent at certain positions...regardless of who the coach is.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 11:19:02 AM
Impact on loss of scholarships to football program...hmm.

Significant

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-usc-ncaa-sanctions-20140608-story.html

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/news/story?id=5271822

And yet, not a losing season to follow.  I bet USC never cheats again.

Until Andy Enfield gets there
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 11:19:52 AM
Smart Michigan fans like smart USC fans and others know sanctions make it difficult to recruit, loss of scholarships means no depth or talent at certain positions...regardless of who the coach is.

Hasn’t hurt Chris Mack.  Didn’t hurt Rick Pitino at Kentucky or Roy Williams at Kansas.  You’re wrong.  Again.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:29:21 AM
You do realize the NCAA, frustrated by the inability to get Shapiro to cooperate but wanting to nail them so bad is what led to the botched investigation, right?

Ask Michigan basketball about the impact of sanctions.

It’s as if these guys here are completely ignoring less players on the team, less depth, no chance for post season, etc has no impact on these coaches to succeed.  Truly remarkable.

If the penalties had no impacts it makes one wonder why the schools complain so much about them...hmm.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 11:32:02 AM
Smart Michigan fans like smart USC fans and others know sanctions make it difficult to recruit, loss of scholarships means no depth or talent at certain positions...regardless of who the coach is.

Programs and coaches know that the loss of a few scholarships and even an occasional postseason appearance is a tiny price to pay for the huge revenues and pay hikes produced by winning championships.
So they'll continue to cheat knowing that in the off chance the NCAA actually imposes punishment, it'll be a wrist slap that - as has been proven time and again - will have no significant long-term impact on the cash cow.

No USC fan (or accountant) would trade the Pete Carroll years to avoid sanctions.
No Memphis fan (or accountant) would trade the John Calipari years to avoid sanctions.
No Wisconsin fan (or accountant) would trade the Barry Alvarez years to avoid sanctions.
No Michigan fan (or accountant) would trade the Fab Five years to avoid sanctions.
No Miami fan (or accountant) would trade the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson years to avoid sanctions.
I could go on, but I hope you get the drift.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2019, 11:35:14 AM
Programs and coaches know that the loss of a few scholarships and even an occasional postseason appearance is a tiny price to pay for the huge revenues and pay hikes produced by winning championships.
So they'll continue to cheat knowing that in the off chance the NCAA actually imposes punishment, it'll be a wrist slap that - as has been proven time and again - will have no significant long-term impact on the cash cow.

No USC fan (or accountant) would trade the Pete Carroll years to avoid sanctions.
No Memphis fan (or accountant) would trade the John Calipari years to avoid sanctions.
No Wisconsin fan (or accountant) would trade the Barry Alvarez years to avoid sanctions.
No Michigan fan (or accountant) would trade the Fab Five years to avoid sanctions.
No Miami fan (or accountant) would trade the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson years to avoid sanctions.
I could go on, but I hope you get the drift.

Truth. It pays to cheat. Period.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:37:10 AM
And yet, not a losing season to follow.  I bet USC never cheats again.

Until Andy Enfield gets there

Uhm, I know you are a smart guy.  Your statement can be true and still also show the damage done to the program.

Please tell me you aren’t suggesting being a 12-1 or 11-0 teams then going to 7 or 8 wins is the same.

But yeah, they still had winning records and were able to beat up on FRESNO State, Hawaii, Minnesota, Cal and Washington State among others.

Give me a break.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Hasn’t hurt Chris Mack.  Didn’t hurt Rick Pitino at Kentucky or Roy Williams at Kansas.  You’re wrong.  Again.

Really, despite providing numerous examples where it has hurt programs...I’m wrong. Interesting.  Because SOME schools rebound faster it makes all the other programs that didn’t...moot?  Lol.

Chris Mack lost to the terrible Wojo last year....Brian Wardle wouldn’t even have done that....sanctions hurt poor old Chris Mack or he would have never lost to Wojo.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:41:10 AM
Truth. It pays to cheat. Period.

Find new teams to cheer for then, because MU isn’t going to do it.  No wonder Buzz left...
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 11:45:25 AM
Programs and coaches know that the loss of a few scholarships and even an occasional postseason appearance is a tiny price to pay for the huge revenues and pay hikes produced by winning championships.
So they'll continue to cheat knowing that in the off chance the NCAA actually imposes punishment, it'll be a wrist slap that - as has been proven time and again - will have no significant long-term impact on the cash cow.

No USC fan (or accountant) would trade the Pete Carroll years to avoid sanctions.
No Memphis fan (or accountant) would trade the John Calipari years to avoid sanctions.
No Wisconsin fan (or accountant) would trade the Barry Alvarez years to avoid sanctions.
No Michigan fan (or accountant) would trade the Fab Five years to avoid sanctions.
No Miami fan (or accountant) would trade the Jimmy Johnson or Dennis Erickson years to avoid sanctions.
I could go on, but I hope you get the drift.

When you cannot sustain it, you are wrong.  Your moment of glory for cheating that you tout is a short term benefit undermined by long term hits. 

Look at the financials of these programs after the hits they took...yup, they got that bump and then they didn’t.  And I don’t mean conference revenues where they ride along as a share of each member...I’m talking financials direct from ticket sales, sponsorships, etc.  You excite your fanbase and then they abandon you when the sanctions hit.  For some reason you don’t want to talk about that. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 11:58:18 AM
Impact on loss of scholarships to football program...hmm.

Significant

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-usc-ncaa-sanctions-20140608-story.html

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/news/story?id=5271822

The only people loss of scholarships hurt are end of bench and walk on guys. Hypothetically, if MU lost a schollie, a guy like Cam wouldn't be awarded the last scholarship on the team. It's a joke punishment from a joke organization.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2019, 12:00:18 PM
Find new teams to cheer for then, because MU isn’t going to do it.  No wonder Buzz left...

You rooted for Kansas while Bill Self cheated. You rooted for Indiana while Tom Crean cheated. Are "other shoes" soon to fall at Virginia Tech? LOL
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 12:05:22 PM
The only people loss of scholarships hurt are end of bench and walk on guys. Hypothetically, if MU lost a schollie, a guy like Cam wouldn't be awarded the last scholarship on the team. It's a joke punishment from a joke organization.

You cannot be serious.  A football team has a depth chart and injuries take their toll.  Younger guys are usually playing special teams, getting their feet wet, etc.

When you cut all those scholarships you are also telling the guys you can try to land for the few spots you have that you will be playing on a team that isn’t going to be as good....because you won’t have the depth to stand up the entire season. 

Your comment is ridiculous.  USC has 44 scholarship players going up against teams with 85.  Absolutely ridiculous suggestion on your part...just like your analogy has no bearing on reality.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 12:13:03 PM
You rooted for Kansas while Bill Self cheated. You rooted for Indiana while Tom Crean cheated. Are "other shoes" soon to fall at Virginia Tech? LOL

I rooted for IU as Crean cheated?  Did IU have to fire a coach for cheating like MU did under Buzz?  Must have missed that....source please.  Thanks.

I have condemned KU often, especially in light of the allegations leveled against them.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: wadesworld on December 15, 2019, 12:39:31 PM
Superbar
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 12:59:47 PM
You cannot be serious.  A football team has a depth chart and injuries take their toll.  Younger guys are usually playing special teams, getting their feet wet, etc.

When you cut all those scholarships you are also telling the guys you can try to land for the few spots you have that you will be playing on a team that isn’t going to be as good....because you won’t have the depth to stand up the entire season. 

Your comment is ridiculous.  USC has 44 scholarship players going up against teams with 85.  Absolutely ridiculous suggestion on your part...just like your analogy has no bearing on reality.

One year after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-2 and finished ranked 6th in the country.
Three years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-4.
Six years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-3, won the Rose Bowl and finished ranked 3rd in the country.
Seven years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 11-3, played in the Cotton Bowl and finished ranked 12th.
Since sanctions, USC's athletic department annual revenue has gone from $76 million to $116 milliom.

Brutal.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 15, 2019, 02:44:03 PM
Smart Michigan fans don’t blame sanctions for Brian Ellerbee and Tommy Amaker.

Amaker has been successful everywhere else. Why not at Michigan? And they only reason Ellerbee was hired was the sanctions.

The sanctions not only hurt UM but they helped MSU.

Sanctions also buried Indiana for a few years until TC was able to rebuild that program.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 02:53:59 PM
Amaker has been successful everywhere else. Why not at Michigan? And they only reason Ellerbee was hired was the sanctions.

Because success in the Big 10 is harder than the Ivy League?
Amaker's success at Seton Hall = 1 NCAA bid in four seasons, zero winning seasons in the Big East.

Quote
The sanctions not only hurt UM but they helped MSU.

Nah.
The NCAA imposed sanctions on Michigan in May 2003, by which time Izzo had led MSU to one national title, three final fours and an elite eight. State was the better program for 6+ seasons before the sanctions arrived.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 02:56:33 PM
Amaker wasn’t that bad at Michigan.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: dinger on December 15, 2019, 03:03:04 PM
Amaker has been successful everywhere else. Why not at Michigan? And they only reason Ellerbee was hired was the sanctions.

The sanctions not only hurt UM but they helped MSU.

Sanctions also buried Indiana for a few years until TC was able to rebuild that program.
You're kidding me. Amaker had only one good year at Seton Hall out of the 4 he was there. Michigan hired him because of his clean roots as a long time Duke assistant and he was totally unprepared for a job at that level. After his middling stint at Michigan it became clear the right level for him is in a conference like the ivy league.
Hey come to think of it this story seems kind of familiar.
Michigan by the way seems pretty undaunted today by the NCAA, hiring a dude intricately connected to the very scandal which they got dinged for.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 03:12:00 PM
Amaker has been successful everywhere else. Why not at Michigan? And they only reason Ellerbee was hired was the sanctions.

The sanctions not only hurt UM but they helped MSU.

Sanctions also buried Indiana for a few years until TC was able to rebuild that program.

Ellerbe got fired because Steve Fisher got fired at the beginning of the 97-98 season.  His team won the Big Ten tourney to get into the NCAA Tournament and they gave him the job because of that. 

Tom Izzo was the heir apparent to Jud Heathcote for awhile.  Izzo had been on his staff for years and was considered one of the nation’s best recruiters in the early 90’s.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 04:12:41 PM
One year after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-2 and finished ranked 6th in the country.
Three years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-4.
Six years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-3, won the Rose Bowl and finished ranked 3rd in the country.
Seven years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 11-3, played in the Cotton Bowl and finished ranked 12th.
Since sanctions, USC's athletic department annual revenue has gone from $76 million to $116 milliom.

Brutal.

Thanks Pak. Looks like the NCAA really showed USC!

You have to hand it to the NCAA. They’re very smart business people. While they could levy real penalties against cheaters, they don’t want to ruin the programs who make them the most money. Truly astute business acumen.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 15, 2019, 05:52:32 PM
Ellerbe got fired because Steve Fisher got fired at the beginning of the 97-98 season.  His team won the Big Ten tourney to get into the NCAA Tournament and they gave him the job because of that. 

Tom Izzo was the heir apparent to Jud Heathcote for awhile.  Izzo had been on his staff for years and was considered one of the nation’s best recruiters in the early 90’s.

And yet Izzo still couldn’t get the top players in the state until the accident exposed what a Fisher had been doing with Ed Martin. Then UM was getting shut out when the sanctions hit. Ellerbee had to deal with the investigation, Amaker with the sanctions that were laid down his second year on the job.

Michigan was the 4 seed in the 1998 BTT, they were getting in anyway. The scandal and sanctions killed recruiting after 1998.

Btw, Minnesota’s program also was decimated for years because of their academic scandal and subsequent sanctions. And look at Washington football, and St. John’s basketball. Ole Miss football. Sanctions work.

Sanctions work.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 15, 2019, 06:01:15 PM
You're kidding me. Amaker had only one good year at Seton Hall out of the 4 he was there. Michigan hired him because of his clean roots as a long time Duke assistant and he was totally unprepared for a job at that level. After his middling stint at Michigan it became clear the right level for him is in a conference like the ivy league.
Hey come to think of it this story seems kind of familiar.
Michigan by the way seems pretty undaunted today by the NCAA, hiring a dude intricately connected to the very scandal which they got dinged for.

Amaker took over a crap program that George Blaney had run down. He got them to the Sweet 16. He took over at Michigan as the sanctions were handed down.

And Michigan went 11 seasons without a tourney appearance thanks to the sanctions.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
Thanks Pak. Looks like the NCAA really showed USC!

You have to hand it to the NCAA. They’re very smart business people. While they could levy real penalties against cheaters, they don’t want to ruin the programs who make them the most money. Truly astute business acumen.

Good Lord...almost none of the football revenue doesn’t go to the NCAA. 

The NCAA revenue comes from the men’s basketball television contract and NCAA championship ticket revenue.  So I guess penalizing the USC football team really hurts the NcAA.....except it doesn’t because they don’t earn revenue off of USC football.   ::)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 06:24:38 PM
Amaker took over a crap program that George Blaney had run down. He got them to the Sweet 16. He took over at Michigan as the sanctions were handed down.

And Michigan went 11 seasons without a tourney appearance thanks to the sanctions.

Ellerbe doesn’t get the job permanently without the run through the Big Ten Tournament.  I’ve followed Michigan basketball since the 80’s.  Ellerbe was a caretaker after Fisher got canned because he had prior head coaching experience.  He also didn’t have any sanctions placed on him or the program while he was coach.  The program was bad while he was there because he wasn’t a good coach.

Michigan lost 1 scholarship during the sanctions.  1 scholarship didn’t keep them out of the NCAA Tournament, Tommy Amaker simply didn’t get it done. 

Michigan State missed the tournament in ‘93-‘94 and were a 3-seed a year later in Jud Heathcote’s final year.  They had plenty of talent.  They missed the next two years as they transitioned to under Izzo.  By the end of the decade, they were making Final 4’s




Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
Ellerbe doesn’t get the job permanently without the run through the Big Ten Tournament.  I’ve followed Michigan basketball since the 80’s.  Ellerbe was a caretaker after Fisher got canned because he had prior head coaching experience.  He also didn’t have any sanctions placed on him or the program while he was coach.  The program was bad while he was there because he wasn’t a good coach.

Michigan lost 1 scholarship during the sanctions.  1 scholarship didn’t keep them out of the NCAA Tournament, Tommy Amaker simply didn’t get it done. 

Michigan State missed the tournament in ‘93-‘94 and were a 3-seed a year later in Jud Heathcote’s final year.  They had plenty of talent.  They missed the next two years as they transitioned to under Izzo.  By the end of the decade, they were making Final 4’s

I would suggest reading where Matteen Cleaves was strongly considering attending until Michigan began investigating their program.  Cleaves was on UM’s campus on his official visit the night with Michigan players when Taylor lost control of his car after being at Ed Martin’s house....that’s what started the whole downfall.

Michigan’s investigation and following penalties drove some of the top recruits always from Michigan and to Michigan State.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 06:44:08 PM
I would suggest reading where Matteen Cleaves was strongly considering attending until Michigan began investigating their program.  Cleaves was on UM’s campus on his official visit the night with Michigan players when Taylor lost control of his car after being at Ed Martin’s house....that’s what started the whole downfall.

Michigan’s investigation and following penalties drove some of the top recruits always from Michigan and to Michigan State.

Wow, I never knew that Cleaves was in that car 🙄

It’s a shame for Michigan not having him as an alumni.

It took 6 years for sanctions to be levied.  Brian Ellerbe was a terrible coach and worse recruiter.  Sanctions had nothing to do with that.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 06:49:29 PM
Good Lord...almost none of the football revenue doesn’t go to the NCAA. 

The NCAA revenue comes from the men’s basketball television contract and NCAA championship ticket revenue.  So I guess penalizing the USC football team really hurts the NcAA.....except it doesn’t because they don’t earn revenue off of USC football.   ::)

Good lord ! You’re naive. And quite the shill for a sham organization.

“Sanctions” do nothing but punish the little guy (athletes) and protect the powerful entities (universities, ad’s, coaches etc.)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:06:51 PM
One year after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-2 and finished ranked 6th in the country.
Three years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-4.
Six years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 10-3, won the Rose Bowl and finished ranked 3rd in the country.
Seven years after the NCAA imposed sanctions, USC went 11-3, played in the Cotton Bowl and finished ranked 12th.
Since sanctions, USC's athletic department annual revenue has gone from $76 million to $116 milliom.

Brutal.

Wow is this massively disingenuous.

Prior to the investigation and then sanctions, this was the annual finish of USC football in the computer rankings (remember, those were used by the BCS)

1st 2002
2nd 2003
1st 2004
2nd 2005
2nd 2006
4th 2007
2nd 2008
2nd 2009

THEN THE INVESTIGATION STARTED...Carroll lasted one more year.   What happened post investigation starting and then penalities?
20th
22nd
13th
33rd
21st

Yeah, that sure looks like the years prior to the investigation.  Yup, no impact.  Just a perfect correlation (I'll say causation because it was) when the investigation started, players stopped going to USC in the same level of talent and quantity, and then the penalties came through.  But you can pretend there was no impact if you wish.  The data, of course, doesn't lie.

USC's annual revenue increased because of the Pac 12 Network deal and other Pac 12 television deals that were split amongst all schools, nothing USC did on their own.  Guess what, Washington State who couldn't win if they tried....their income went up as well because of it.  Good try....massively disingenuous.  Massively.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 07:09:52 PM
I think the reason USC started to fall off after 2009 had mostly to do with Pete Caroll leaving for the Seahawks.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:11:11 PM
Wow, I never knew that Cleaves was in that car 🙄

It’s a shame for Michigan not having him as an alumni.

It took 6 years for sanctions to be levied.  Brian Ellerbe was a terrible coach and worse recruiter.  Sanctions had nothing to do with that.

He wasn't, nor did I say he was.  He was, however, at Ed Martin's house along with other Michigan players.  Taylor got in the car wreck, and when the school learned where he was (Uncle Ed's house) the investigation began.  That was the beginning of the end.  You seem to suggest that NCAA investigations going on don't  have an impact...they absolutely do, even before the sanctions are levied.  The black could over a program can hurt, as it did USC and Michigan. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 07:12:02 PM
Wow is this massively disingenuous.

Prior to the investigation and then sanctions, this was the annual finish of USC football in the computer rankings (remember, those were used by the BCS)

1st 2002
2nd 2003
1st 2004
2nd 2005
2nd 2006
4th 2007
2nd 2008
2nd 2009

THEN THE INVESTIGATION STARTED...Carroll lasted one more year.   What happened post investigation starting and then penalities?
20th
22nd
13th
33rd
21st

Yeah, that sure looks like the years prior to the investigation.  Yup, no impact.  Just a perfect correlation (I'll say causation because it was) when the investigation started, players stopped going to USC in the same level of talent and quantity, and then the penalties came through.  But you can pretend there was no impact if you wish.  The data, of course, doesn't lie.

USC's annual revenue increased because of the Pac 12 Network deal and other Pac 12 television deals that were split amongst all schools, nothing USC did on their own.  Guess what, Washington State who couldn't win if they tried....their income went up as well because of it.  Good try....massively disingenuous.  Massively.

Pretty much perennial top 25 even after debatably the best college coach of the decade leaves the program. The iron fist of the NCAA strikes again!!!!!
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketb
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:13:18 PM
I think the reason USC started to fall off after 2009 had mostly to do with Pete Caroll leaving for the Seahawks.

That and the slow drain of assistants through the years.  Depth had begun to take a hit because of early entries as well.  Alabama has been pretty amazing for the decade avoiding a decline similar to it. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:15:04 PM
He wasn't, nor did I say he was.  He was, however, at Ed Martin's house along with other Michigan players.  Taylor got in the car wreck, and when the school learned where he was (Uncle Ed's house) the investigation began.  That was the beginning of the end.  You seem to suggest that NCAA investigations going on don't  have an impact...they absolutely do, even before the sanctions are levied.  The black could over a program can hurt, as it did USC and Michigan.

What hurt the program was hiring Brian Ellerbe and not pursuing Rick Pitino over Tommy Amaker after realizing what a colossal disaster Ellerbe was.  After all, Pitino took over Kentucky after crippling sanctions and was in a Final Four in no time
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:15:33 PM
Good lord ! You’re naive. And quite the shill for a sham organization.

“Sanctions” do nothing but punish the little guy (athletes) and protect the powerful entities (universities, ad’s, coaches etc.)

Yeah, NOTHING....they do  NOTHING to the powerful entities.  Yup...NOTHING.  And yea, those powerful coaches that get fired over this stuff....that's nothing, too.  How many examples do you want?  Look, you blew thinking the NCAA earns gobs of revenue from football, they don't.  I hear it all the time from people who have no idea what they are talking about.  Feel free to look up the NCAAs financial records and their sources of revenue.  Sorry, you were wrong on this one and the other items.  Sure, the athletes get punished and some are collateral damage, while some absolutely played the game and got caught.  But to think that no one else gets damaged is naive and absurd. 

USC has NOT yet recovered from the absolute juggernaut they were at the time.  Once again showing memories here are going quickly.  They were a top 4 team every year for nearly a decade until the investigations started and then the sanctions.  They paid a dear price, and they have yet to recover from it.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:17:24 PM
Yeah, NOTHING....they do  NOTHING to the powerful entities.  Yup...NOTHING.  And yea, those powerful coaches that get fired over this stuff....that's nothing, too.  How many examples do you want?  Look, you blew thinking the NCAA earns gobs of revenue from football, they don't.  I hear it all the time from people who have no idea what they are talking about.  Feel free to look up the NCAAs financial records and their sources of revenue.  Sorry, you were wrong on this one and the other items.  Sure, the athletes get punished and some are collateral damage, while some absolutely played the game and got caught.  But to think that no one else gets damaged is naive and absurd. 

USC has NOT yet recovered from the absolute juggernaut they were at the time.  Once again showing memories here are going quickly.  They were a top 4 team every year for nearly a decade until the investigations started and then the sanctions.  They paid a dear price, and they have yet to recover from it.

They would have had they hired Ed Orgeron instead of Steve Sarkisian
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 07:19:30 PM
This desperation from Cheeks is hilarious. He really thinks the reason USC isn’t what they were before is because of sanctions?  And not a series of terrible coaching decisions by a couple of terrible athletic directors?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:20:28 PM
I think the reason USC started to fall off after 2009 had mostly to do with Pete Caroll leaving for the Seahawks.

Had a lot to do with it, and he left because the NCAA was crashing his corrupt program.  He got out of dodge.  The cheating was going to stop....it's weird, when the cheating stops and you cannot get the great players, nor have as many scholarships the program's fortunes change....which is exactly what happened to USC.

T.J. Houshmandzadeh said it best...Pete got out while the house was burning.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 07:21:22 PM
Yeah, NOTHING....they do  NOTHING to the powerful entities.  Yup...NOTHING.  And yea, those powerful coaches that get fired over this stuff....that's nothing, too.  How many examples do you want?  Look, you blew thinking the NCAA earns gobs of revenue from football, they don't.  I hear it all the time from people who have no idea what they are talking about.  Feel free to look up the NCAAs financial records and their sources of revenue.  Sorry, you were wrong on this one and the other items.  Sure, the athletes get punished and some are collateral damage, while some absolutely played the game and got caught.  But to think that no one else gets damaged is naive and absurd. 

USC has NOT yet recovered from the absolute juggernaut they were at the time.  Once again showing memories here are going quickly.  They were a top 4 team every year for nearly a decade until the investigations started and then the sanctions.  They paid a dear price, and they have yet to recover from it.

Dude - Pete Carroll left. That’s the difference between USC as a top 5 team and USC as a top 25 team. Not the NCAA. C’mon man use your head.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:22:21 PM
Pretty much perennial top 25 even after debatably the best college coach of the decade leaves the program. The iron fist of the NCAA strikes again!!!!!

You again miss the point.  I said they never recovered from where they were, which is absolutely correct.  Some of you are trying to say that going 8-4 and still having a "winning record" is the same as going 11-1, 12-0 each year like they were doing prior to that.  Sorry, you are wrong.  Dropping down to barely a top 25 program after being literally one of the two best in the country for 8 years is not the same.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:25:18 PM
What hurt the program was hiring Brian Ellerbe and not pursuing Rick Pitino over Tommy Amaker after realizing what a colossal disaster Ellerbe was.  After all, Pitino took over Kentucky after crippling sanctions and was in a Final Four in no time

Hmm, totally ignoring that big time coaches didn't want to go to Michigan because....wait for it....wait for it....the NCAA was investigating them and about to slam them with penalties.  Why is this so hard for some of you?  Pitino took over Kentucky and "no time" was 4 years later....hell, Tom Crean did the same thing with MU and hearing some folks here he can't even chew gum and walk.  It's also a lot easier to turn around a basketball program than football, all you need is one or two studs and you are off and running. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:25:46 PM
This desperation from Cheeks is hilarious. He really thinks the reason USC isn’t what they were before is because of sanctions?  And not a series of terrible coaching decisions by a couple of terrible athletic directors?

University of
Spoiled
Children
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:27:20 PM
This desperation from Cheeks is hilarious. He really thinks the reason USC isn’t what they were before is because of sanctions?  And not a series of terrible coaching decisions by a couple of terrible athletic directors?

LOL.  No, I'll just ignore the facts and the expert opinions on how it went down, especially working with the Pac 12 on TV, Network and other areas the last 20 years here locally.  Yup, those sanctions and investigations had no impacts.  Coaches were lining up to take over a program that was banned, could only retain 44 scholarships instead of 85....lining up down the street.  LOL
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:31:14 PM
Dude - Pete Carroll left. That’s the difference between USC as a top 5 team and USC as a top 25 team. Not the NCAA. C’mon man use your head.

Why did Pete Carroll leave....oh that's right, the NCAA was about to crush his program.  Which they did, despite the continued nonsense here that the penalities are never "harsh" enough. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:32:21 PM
Hmm, totally ignoring that big time coaches didn't want to go to Michigan because....wait for it....wait for it....the NCAA was investigating them and about to slam them with penalties.  Why is this so hard for some of you?  Pitino took over Kentucky and "no time" was 4 years later....hell, Tom Crean did the same thing with MU and hearing some folks here he can't even chew gum and walk.  It's also a lot easier to turn around a basketball program than football, all you need is one or two studs and you are off and running.

Kentucky was looking at sanctions.  Louisville was looking at sanctions.  Michigan self-imposed 1-year ban when they were terrible and lost 1 scholarship.  The horror of overcoming that probably would keep any coach away.

James Franklin could have had any job and took Penn State, crippled by sanctions.  Nah, usc made disastrous hires.  That’s why they aren’t the 2000 USC teams.

I mean, FSU wasn’t the same as they were in the 2000’s as the 1990’s.  Texas hasn’t been the same since 2008.  Ohio State couldn’t replicate the 70’s in the 80’s.  Colorado hasn’t been the same since Bill McCartney left.  Florida is on their 3rd coach since Urban Meyer.  The common denominator is coaching, not sanctions
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 15, 2019, 07:32:55 PM
LOL.  No, I'll just ignore the facts and the expert opinions on how it went down, especially working with the Pac 12 on TV, Network and other areas the last 20 years here locally.  Yup, those sanctions and investigations had no impacts.  Coaches were lining up to take over a program that was banned, could only retain 44 scholarships instead of 85....lining up down the street.  LOL

Let’s be real. You’ve never shared one word about USC and NCAA sanctions with anyone at the PAC 12 network.

And you’re wrong anyway.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: wadesworld on December 15, 2019, 07:35:28 PM
Why did Pete Carroll leave....oh that's right, the NCAA was about to crush his program.  Which they did, despite the continued nonsense here that the penalities are never "harsh" enough.

Maybe it was the $7M salary the Seahawks offered him to coach at the highest level of his profession in place of the $4.4M he was making at a place he’d already accomplished everything he could accomplish?

Anyways, SUPERBAR! But Cheeks wanted some attention so here it is, having nothing to do with Marquette basketball.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:36:19 PM
Let’s be real. You’ve never shared one word about USC and NCAA sanctions with anyone at the PAC 12 network.

And you’re wrong anyway.

He is.  USC lost ten scholarships.  They were down to 44 players because of transfers and dropouts.  That’s terrible roster management.  That’s on coaching
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 15, 2019, 07:37:03 PM
Maybe it was the $7M salary the Seahawks offered him to coach at the highest level of his profession in place of the $4.4M he was making at a place he’d already accomplished everything he could accomplish?

Anyways, SUPERBAR! But Cheeks wanted some attention so here it is, having nothing to do with Marquette basketball.

My bad.  I’m done
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 15, 2019, 07:40:45 PM
This desperation from Cheeks is hilarious. He really thinks the reason USC isn’t what they were before is because of sanctions?  And not a series of terrible coaching decisions by a couple of terrible athletic directors?

Cheeks is a joke.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 15, 2019, 07:43:10 PM
I think the reason USC started to fall off after 2009 had mostly to do with Pete Caroll leaving for the Seahawks.

So you're saying that no longer having one of the best football coaches on the planet running the show had a negative effect on USC's program.
Cheeks begs to differ.
USC was a total juggernaut for the decade+ before Carroll arrived .. (checks record).
Oh

It's weird how every time Cheeks gets gutted around here he just happens to run into an anonymous expert who says he's totally right.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: panda on December 15, 2019, 07:49:23 PM
So you're saying that no longer having one of the best football coaches on the planet running the show had a negative effect on USC's program.
Cheeks begs to differ.
USC was a total juggernaut for the decade+ before Carroll arrived .. (checks record).
Oh

It's weird how every time Cheeks gets gutted around here he just happens to run into an anonymous expert who says he's totally right.

No I really think it must be the NCAA sanctions that forced USC to fall out of the top 5. It had nothing to do with USC going from Pete Carroll to Lane Kiffin......LOL
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:53:45 PM
So you're saying that no longer having one of the best football coaches on the planet running the show had a negative effect on USC's program.
Cheeks begs to differ.
USC was a total juggernaut for the decade+ before Carroll arrived .. (checks record).
Oh

It's weird how every time Cheeks gets gutted around here he just happens to run into an anonymous expert who says he's totally right.

It's also weird that the most serious NCAA penalities ever handed down to USC were a result of what happened when Carroll was there.  Hmm.  So odd, but heads go into the sand. 

Anonymous expert?  Nope.  All here for you to read...Feel free to read at your leisure.  Strangely, when you compete with 40% less scholarship players than your opponents it has a negative effect.  Who knew.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-usc-ncaa-sanctions-20140608-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/sports/ncaafootball/11usc.html

https://reignoftroy.com/2013/10/22/usc-football-ncaa-sanctions-crippled-trojans-literally/

http://dailytrojan.com/2013/09/26/haden-meets-with-ncaa-discusses-football-sanctions/

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/news/story?id=5271822

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 07:55:09 PM
No I really think it must be the NCAA sanctions that forced USC to fall out of the top 5. It had nothing to do with USC going from Pete Carroll to Lane Kiffin......LOL

And Pete Carroll didn't leave because the NCAA was on his doorstep....talk about NAIVE.  And nope, going from 85 scholarship players to less than 50...that didn't have anything to do with dropping out of the top 5 either.  I mean...wow.  Seriously...wow.  They're giving out degrees at MU these days apparently.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 08:04:24 PM
Cheeks is a joke.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/UcPGhfugZ5PPO/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 🏀 on December 15, 2019, 08:09:05 PM
Cheeks is a joke.

He’s the guy that doesn’t know that everyone else in the office hates him.

Top shelf penis.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 15, 2019, 08:48:57 PM
He’s the guy that doesn’t know that everyone else in the office hates him.

Top shelf penis.

  but do ya have anything to add to the argument aside from name calling and trying(and major fail) to take advantage of someone's grief...speakin of top shelf
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 🏀 on December 15, 2019, 08:53:49 PM
  but do ya have anything to add to the argument aside from name calling and trying(and major fail) to take advantage of someone's grief...speakin of top shelf

Do you post other than in support of Cheeks?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 08:53:56 PM
He’s the guy that doesn’t know that everyone else in the office hates him.

Top shelf penis.

Nope, pretty much have a great working relationship with most in the office and have for a long time.  Evaluation ratings by anonymous peers and directs confirm that on an annual basis. 

Really would like to politely ask you to change your offensive avatar.  It's 2019, almost 2020...really is time to stop mocking LGBTQ for someone's crude humor fixations.  Thank you.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 15, 2019, 08:55:03 PM
Do you post other than in support of Cheeks?

He does, often posting on many things that have nothing to do with me.  I'd invite you to read many of his postings, probably 99% that have nothing to do with me.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on December 15, 2019, 09:46:14 PM
  but do ya have anything to add to the argument aside from name calling and trying(and major fail) to take advantage of someone's grief...speakin of top shelf
OK, Boo Boo.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 15, 2019, 10:44:27 PM
Do you post other than in support of Cheeks?

i'm still waiting for your response to chicos premise, cuz this i gotta hear.  if ya have nothing, you become the top shelf whatever.  if ya have something, throw it out there, but ya don't have to resort to name calling.  do you make fun of the homeless too?  or even better,  the homeless who are grieving the loss of a loved one? that should be right in your wheelhouse
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 🏀 on December 16, 2019, 06:31:13 AM
i'm still waiting for your response to chicos premise, cuz this i gotta hear.  if ya have nothing, you become the top shelf whatever.  if ya have something, throw it out there, but ya don't have to resort to name calling.  do you make fun of the homeless too?  or even better,  the homeless who are grieving the loss of a loved one? that should be right in your wheelhouse

It wasn’t Chico’s best work of fiction that year. The story didn’t quite resonate with me, wasn’t sure if it was the characters or storyline.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Billy Hoyle on December 16, 2019, 11:40:40 AM
Ellerbe doesn’t get the job permanently without the run through the Big Ten Tournament.  I’ve followed Michigan basketball since the 80’s.  Ellerbe was a caretaker after Fisher got canned because he had prior head coaching experience.  He also didn’t have any sanctions placed on him or the program while he was coach.  The program was bad while he was there because he wasn’t a good coach.

Michigan lost 1 scholarship during the sanctions.  1 scholarship didn’t keep them out of the NCAA Tournament, Tommy Amaker simply didn’t get it done. 

Michigan State missed the tournament in ‘93-‘94 and were a 3-seed a year later in Jud Heathcote’s final year.  They had plenty of talent.  They missed the next two years as they transitioned to under Izzo.  By the end of the decade, they were making Final 4’s

I too followed UM basketball since the Gary Grant/Roy Tarpley/Antoine Jobert days. Glenn Rice was an absolute hero to me for that 1989 title run.  I jumped so high I hit my head on the ceiling at my friends' house when Sean Higgins had the put back against the Flyin' Illini team in 1989.

Yes, MSU did have "plenty of talent" in future NBA players Shawn Respert (25 ppg) and Eric Snow along with role players. Only Respert was from MI and MSU took a chance on him after he tore up his knee in HS. They got Snow because his brother had been an All-America LB at MSU. MSU was getting shut out for the top players in MI - even the second tier guys were going out of state instead of to MSU (Vashon Leonard, Harold Eisley, Monter Glasper, David Washington).  Morris Peterson was the last recruit in Izzo's first class, a "let's take a chance on this guy" recruit. It wasn't until the investigation started that MSU started getting the MI kids that usually went to UM. The only exception was Lavelle Blanchard, and he went to HS across the street from Chrisler and the Big House. 

Since the investigation dragged on so long (mainly because the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power) UM couldn't attract a top coach nor top recruits.  The looming investigation and eventual sanctions crippled UM basketball for years.  You try and use the "well Pitino went to Kentucky" example but that was 1988 and Pitino was looking to get out of the NBA.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 16, 2019, 12:25:14 PM
And Pete Carroll didn't leave because the NCAA was on his doorstep....talk about NAIVE.  And nope, going from 85 scholarship players to less than 50...that didn't have anything to do with dropping out of the top 5 either.  I mean...wow.  Seriously...wow.  They're giving out degrees at MU these days apparently.

Carroll left because the Seahawks offered him a $33 million contract; because he's an NFL guy at heart; because the Seahawks allowed him to pick his GM; because almost every coach would rather deal with pros than college kids; because he never had to sit in another living room and kiss up to a 17-year-old boy and his grandmother; etc.
The NCAA being on his doorstep is way down the list of reasons Carroll left. Had there been no NCAA issues, Carroll still would have left for all the reasons above.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 16, 2019, 06:58:59 PM
You do realize the NCAA, frustrated by the inability to get Shapiro to cooperate but wanting to nail them so bad is what led to the botched investigation, right?

Ask Michigan basketball about the impact of sanctions.

You kinda make my point (but you won’t ever agree).  The NCAA is a cartel, I maintain. The definition of a cartel is “a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices.” (Like conference realignment deals with ESPN, no payments for images, etc).

In the Miami case, the NCAA guidelines prevented NCAA compliance with dealing with Shapiro and his lawyers which caused the case to collapse, while Yahoo could get to the depth of the corruption. There are the understaffed and underfunded compliance people and then there are the NCAA members who don’t want to be held accountable in many cases.

What you get are obstinate member institutions and their coaches who claim innocence on every turn when caught (Self, Miller, Wade), obfuscate, or fight appeals. If member schools really wanted full compliance, they would fully fund the policing effort (not rely on self-policing).  As a result, you get this grey or black market economy where cheaters (see Pomeroy Top 50) are taught it pays to cheat.

I know you and Cheeks will disagree, but there really are only two choices for many of us: Fully fund and make independent NCAA compliance (read external) or professionalize the sports. 

The in-between status quo is simply not working. Fans, lawmakers, legal institutions and the press believe this. The member schools, though, continue to actively employ, defend, and promote these cheaters with a blind eye that would not be tolerated in almost all businesses and organizations. Why? They are a cartel. They protect their own members.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/renegade-miami-football-booster-spells-213700753--spt.html
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 16, 2019, 07:03:09 PM
It wasn’t Chico’s best work of fiction that year. The story didn’t quite resonate with me, wasn’t sure if it was the characters or storyline.

you have some bad ice water running thru those veins man.  if you're skeptical of the "story", best ya leave that one alone. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 16, 2019, 07:25:11 PM
No I really think it must be the NCAA sanctions that forced USC to fall out of the top 5. It had nothing to do with USC going from Pete Carroll to Lane Kiffin......LOL

Who can forget the great USC years of Ted Tollner, Larry Smith and Paul Hackett that preceded  Pete. You are so right, coaching hires contributed big time to the demise of SC.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 16, 2019, 11:33:21 PM
You kinda make my point (but you won’t ever agree).  The NCAA is a cartel, I maintain. The definition of a cartel is “a combination of independent commercial or industrial enterprises designed to limit competition or fix prices.” (Like conference realignment deals with ESPN, no payments for images, etc).

In the Miami case, the NCAA guidelines prevented NCAA compliance with dealing with Shapiro and his lawyers which caused the case to collapse, while Yahoo could get to the depth of the corruption. There are the understaffed and underfunded compliance people and then there are the NCAA members who don’t want to be held accountable in many cases.

What you get are obstinate member institutions and their coaches who claim innocence on every turn when caught (Self, Miller, Wade), obfuscate, or fight appeals. If member schools really wanted full compliance, they would fully fund the policing effort (not rely on self-policing).  As a result, you get this grey or black market economy where cheaters (see Pomeroy Top 50) are taught it pays to cheat.

I know you and Cheeks will disagree, but there really are only two choices for many of us: Fully fund and make independent NCAA compliance (read external) or professionalize the sports. 

The in-between status quo is simply not working. Fans, lawmakers, legal institutions and the press believe this. The member schools, though, continue to actively employ, defend, and promote these cheaters with a blind eye that would not be tolerated in almost all businesses and organizations. Why? They are a cartel. They protect their own members.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/3/27/4154708/ncaa-botched-miami-investigation-mark-emmert-donna-shalala

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/renegade-miami-football-booster-spells-213700753--spt.html

It actually works fine, you are focusing on the tiniest of slivers where it is problematic.  For the vast majority of student athletes is works very well.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 16, 2019, 11:35:14 PM
Who can forget the great USC years of Ted Tollner, Larry Smith and Paul Hackett that preceded  Pete. You are so right, coaching hires contributed big time to the demise of SC.

Who can ignore the great years under Carroll and the NCAA penalties that went with them...oh...you and others.  Just simply ignoring them.

Also ignoring John Robinson, McKay and other coaches that did great at USC.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 16, 2019, 11:39:06 PM
Carroll left because the Seahawks offered him a $33 million contract; because he's an NFL guy at heart; because the Seahawks allowed him to pick his GM; because almost every coach would rather deal with pros than college kids; because he never had to sit in another living room and kiss up to a 17-year-old boy and his grandmother; etc.
The NCAA being on his doorstep is way down the list of reasons Carroll left. Had there been no NCAA issues, Carroll still would have left for all the reasons above.

Sure.  That was part of it, but feel free to ignore some of the harshest ncaa penalties in history as a result of his regime...like they didn’t happen.  Further pretend, like you and others have, that it had no or limited impact to the coaches that followed.  Also ignore that he knew when to get out.

I mean, if I made the argument you are making you would be all over me...absolutely all over me.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2019, 12:21:22 AM
It actually works fine, you are focusing on the tiniest of slivers where it is problematic.  For the vast majority of student athletes is works very well.

And therein lies the issue. The concept of NCAA purity works great for 253 D1 schools and all of D2 and D3.  But the NCAA is a utter, complete and abject failure for the Pomeroy Top 50 schools (who are the most profitable ones btw...coincidence?). 

Cheeks and Billy, you are good people: Look in the mirror and ask yourselves honestly, though, how can you seriously work with organization(s) who allow Dollar Bill Self, Liar Will Wade, and Slime Ball Sean Miller to still be in a position of power?  Answer me that, Riddler?

If, after listening to those wiretaps played in open, public court, you can defend the lack of NCAA and university inaction, you are dead to the board on credibility.  On a good day, Miller and Wade should have been fired long ago and Self should be on leave.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 17, 2019, 07:00:04 AM
Who can ignore the great years under Carroll and the NCAA penalties that went with them...oh...you and others.  Just simply ignoring them.

Also ignoring John Robinson, McKay and other coaches that did great at USC.


Well because their success was much less relevant because it was over a decade earlier.  From 1990 to present, a span of 30 seasons, USC has largely been good - but not great.  The only exception to that was the Pete Carroll era when they were undoubtedly great.  From 1990 to when Carroll took over, they went 79-61-4 with two bowl appearances. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 17, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
Sure.  That was part of it, but feel free to ignore some of the harshest ncaa penalties in history as a result of his regime...like they didn’t happen.  Further pretend, like you and others have, that it had no or limited impact to the coaches that followed.  Also ignore that he knew when to get out.

I mean, if I made the argument you are making you would be all over me...absolutely all over me.

Nobody's denying that there were penalties. But the fact you continue to deny is that the penalties had no significant negative effect on the USC program, either financially or on the field. And certainly whatever penalties the program did suffer pale in comparison to the  benefits it accumulated as a result of Carroll's success.
Put it to you this way:
In the 10 years before Carroll, USC went 65-52-3 (.555), with zero top 10 finishes and two top 25 finishes.
In the 10 years since Carroll and the imposition of sanctions, USC has gone 87-44 (.644), with two top 10 finishes and five top 25 finishes so far (and potentially six this year).

So, despite these extraordinarily harsh penalties you're telling us about, USC football has been better off in their aftermath than they were in the years before Carroll and before sanctions.
The moral of the story is that cheating pays and the NCAA is either too spineless to stop it or, more likely, complicit through its inaction.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 17, 2019, 11:14:36 AM

Well because their success was much less relevant because it was over a decade earlier.  From 1990 to present, a span of 30 seasons, USC has largely been good - but not great.  The only exception to that was the Pete Carroll era when they were undoubtedly great.  From 1990 to when Carroll took over, they went 79-61-4 with two bowl appearances.

Coaching hires matter.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: MU82 on December 17, 2019, 02:26:46 PM

So, despite these extraordinarily harsh penalties you're telling us about, USC football has been better off in their aftermath than they were in the years before Carroll and before sanctions.
The moral of the story is that cheating pays and the NCAA is either too spineless to stop it or, more likely, complicit through its inaction.

The real proof that cheating pays is what Carroll was able to do while cheating.

Coaches like him (and the ADs/university presidents who support/condone) weigh the pros and cons and they know the pros far outweigh the cons. By the time they get caught -- IF they ever get caught -- they will have won big and enriched themselves financially. And, as you show, the "punishment" -- IF it ever happens -- doesn't hurt that badly.

USC was decidedly better off for having cheated. The NCAA was/is powerless.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 17, 2019, 02:33:17 PM
Yeah it's not as though Pete Carroll is walking around with any black mark on his record.  It hasn't hurt his reputation in the least.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 17, 2019, 07:43:54 PM
Yeah it's not as though Pete Carroll is walking around with any black mark on his record.  It hasn't hurt his reputation in the least.

Here in So Cal that isn’t the case.  Also plenty of hits against him over the years as a cheater.  When he did an interview a few years ago about USC he got crushed for his role there.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 17, 2019, 08:06:15 PM
Here in So Cal that isn’t the case.  Also plenty of hits against him over the years as a cheater.  When he did an interview a few years ago about USC he got crushed for his role there.

That’s your narrative dude. Hardly makes it true. You are not the only person who lives in So Cal. Los of alums and donors don’t have the issues with Pete you spout. I worked in sports at ABC for years and he was well liked by many. He certainly had his detractors, but you keep shilling your stuff. Hope it makes you feel good.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 17, 2019, 08:22:08 PM
That’s your narrative dude. Hardly makes it true. You are not the only person who lives in So Cal. Los of alums and donors don’t have the issues with Pete you spout. I worked in sports at ABC for years and he was well liked by many. He certainly had his detractors, but you keep shilling your stuff. Hope it makes you feel good.

I don't live in SoCal. Don't like or hate USC and I like the NFL more than college football. As a sports fan I can tell you I have heard that Pete cheated at USC and ran to the NFL to avoid the NCAA on national sports TV and radio at least 100 times since he left USC (more frequently since the FBI CBB scandal). True or not, its the national narrative about Pete.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 17, 2019, 09:42:39 PM
I don't live in SoCal. Don't like or hate USC and I like the NFL more than college football. As a sports fan I can tell you I have heard that Pete cheated at USC and ran to the NFL to avoid the NCAA on national sports TV and radio at least 100 times since he left USC (more frequently since the FBI CBB scandal). True or not, its the national narrative about Pete.

Now you're just making stuff up.

On condition of anonymity, several current and former employees of the Seahawks with direct knowledge of events talked candidly this week with Sportspress Northwest about the rapid-fire decisions that led to the hires of Pete Carroll as coach and John Schneider as general manager, the men primarily responsible for having Seattle on the edge of its first major pro sports championship in 35 years.
The sources also sought to dispel what they viewed as myths surrounding the hires, notably that Carroll had advance understanding of the gravity of NCAA sanctions that were about to hit his employer, USC, over cash payments made by a representative of an agent to the family of star Trojans running back Reggie Bush.
As far as looking at another job, "Pete at the time was going nowhere," said one source with knowledge of the situation at USC. "He and (then-athletic director) Mike Garrett were certain the worst it would be, was some scholarship losses. They were planning around it for the next season.
"We called him. He didn't call us. He was king of LA."


https://crosscut.com/2014/01/how-seattle-seahawks-hired-pete-carroll-usc

Read the whole story. Contrary to your version of events, Carroll was not fleeing USC. He had to be convinced (with $33 million and complete control) to leave.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 17, 2019, 09:45:25 PM
That’s your narrative dude. Hardly makes it true. You are not the only person who lives in So Cal. Los of alums and donors don’t have the issues with Pete you spout. I worked in sports at ABC for years and he was well liked by many. He certainly had his detractors, but you keep shilling your stuff. Hope it makes you feel good.

The statement made by Sultan was that “it hasn’t hurt his reputation in the least.”  That is simply not a true statement.

Yes, Pete is super well liked...his like ability isn’t in questions.  I don’t see anyone questioning his like ability.  All kinds of really nice, likable people that still do things that get their programs in trouble, etc.

You keep pretending St Pete wasn’t CEO of the football program that got hit very hard by the NCAA including voiding a national title, forfeiting a number of games, huge scholarship reductions, post season bans, the Heisman trophy returned, etc, etc....St. Pete very nice, but get real. 

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 17, 2019, 09:46:56 PM
Now you're just making stuff up.

On condition of anonymity, several current and former employees of the Seahawks with direct knowledge of events talked candidly this week with Sportspress Northwest about the rapid-fire decisions that led to the hires of Pete Carroll as coach and John Schneider as general manager, the men primarily responsible for having Seattle on the edge of its first major pro sports championship in 35 years.
The sources also sought to dispel what they viewed as myths surrounding the hires, notably that Carroll had advance understanding of the gravity of NCAA sanctions that were about to hit his employer, USC, over cash payments made by a representative of an agent to the family of star Trojans running back Reggie Bush.
As far as looking at another job, "Pete at the time was going nowhere," said one source with knowledge of the situation at USC. "He and (then-athletic director) Mike Garrett were certain the worst it would be, was some scholarship losses. They were planning around it for the next season.
"We called him. He didn't call us. He was king of LA."


https://crosscut.com/2014/01/how-seattle-seahawks-hired-pete-carroll-usc

Read the whole story. Contrary to your version of events, Carroll was not fleeing USC. He had to be convinced (with $33 million and complete control) to leave.

Weird you didn’t quote some of the players that said he got out while the house was burning.  Maybe TAMU will do an investigation on which articles you chose to quote or didn’t.   :D

St Pete.  Carroll’s cheating...  https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/14/pete-carrolls-own-cheating-could-make-it-harder-for-usc-on-appeal/
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 17, 2019, 10:02:13 PM
Weird you didn’t quote some of the players that said he got out while the house was burning.  Maybe TAMU will do an investigation on which articles you chose to quote or didn’t.   :D

I noticed you ran away from that thread after my "investigation" (aka reading the article you linked in a post). I was simply giving you the opportunity to live up to your promise:

If I am wrong I will correct it.

You are always talking about how you wish people would admit when they make a mistake or are wrong. You still have the chance to walk the walk.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: WhiteTrash on December 17, 2019, 10:15:37 PM
Now you're just making stuff up.

On condition of anonymity, several current and former employees of the Seahawks with direct knowledge of events talked candidly this week with Sportspress Northwest about the rapid-fire decisions that led to the hires of Pete Carroll as coach and John Schneider as general manager, the men primarily responsible for having Seattle on the edge of its first major pro sports championship in 35 years.
The sources also sought to dispel what they viewed as myths surrounding the hires, notably that Carroll had advance understanding of the gravity of NCAA sanctions that were about to hit his employer, USC, over cash payments made by a representative of an agent to the family of star Trojans running back Reggie Bush.
As far as looking at another job, "Pete at the time was going nowhere," said one source with knowledge of the situation at USC. "He and (then-athletic director) Mike Garrett were certain the worst it would be, was some scholarship losses. They were planning around it for the next season.
"We called him. He didn't call us. He was king of LA."


https://crosscut.com/2014/01/how-seattle-seahawks-hired-pete-carroll-usc

Read the whole story. Contrary to your version of events, Carroll was not fleeing USC. He had to be convinced (with $33 million and complete control) to leave.
I think you need to re-read my post.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: MU82 on December 17, 2019, 11:22:10 PM
The statement made by Sultan was that “it hasn’t hurt his reputation in the least.”  That is simply not a true statement.

Yes, Pete is super well liked...his like ability isn’t in questions.  I don’t see anyone questioning his like ability.  All kinds of really nice, likable people that still do things that get their programs in trouble, etc.

You keep pretending St Pete wasn’t CEO of the football program that got hit very hard by the NCAA including voiding a national title, forfeiting a number of games, huge scholarship reductions, post season bans, the Heisman trophy returned, etc, etc....St. Pete very nice, but get real.

I will slightly amend Sultan's statement:

It has not materially hurt Carroll in any measurable way.

He is rich, highly regarded, successful, liked. He went to a better job and he has done very well in it. If he left the Seahawks to go back on the open market, he would have a deluge of huge-money offers.

Maybe some folks in Southern California feel betrayed by him or lost respect for him. Maybe some folks in other parts of the country feel the same. But we all should be as hurt as Pete Carroll was "hurt" by the aftermath of his time at USC.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 18, 2019, 08:00:20 AM
It hasn't hurt his reputation.  Well maybe with some USC fans, but he has been considered a very good coach in the NFL for quite awhile now.  And even if the thought at the time was that he was running from USC when he went to Seattle, he rapidly proved that could succeed at the highest levels of the sport.

The NCAA penalties haven't hurt him or the USC program substantially.  What has hurt USC was a series of piss-poor personnel decisions.

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
Forbes listed Carroll as the top NFL cheater in 2016...leopard spots.

The college admissions scandal winding through the courts still, Rick Singer was the ring leader and good old Pete’s org Win Forever was a strategic partner....interesting.

Carroll’s defense of Reggie Bush and all of the “sports marketers” on campus was rightly blown out of the water by the NCAA in their final report, Pete knew that was coming as did most people out here.  The walls closing in.

In an amazing coincidence of timing, the NCAA began investigating USC that took several years and Pete quits prior to the leveled sanctions...talk about timing the market...he’s good.  Seattle throws him a lifeline, he takes it...goes on to get busted no fewer that 5 times in Seattle by the NFL for cheating....but he is a very nice guy...people love him.  Reminds me of a certain basketball coach in Bruce Pearl, funny guy, good coach, life of the party, very charismatic, just cannot seem to avoid controversy with the damn rule book.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 18, 2019, 08:33:34 AM
Forbes listed Carroll as the top NFL cheater in 2016...leopard spots.

Oh my.  However will he recover from THAT?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 18, 2019, 08:38:22 AM
Oh my.  However will he recover from THAT?

How could the Seahawks keep him?  I bet if he wanted to, USC would never take him back.  Can’t imagine any NCAA institution would touch him
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocket surgeon on December 18, 2019, 08:39:22 AM
Oh my.  However will he recover from THAT?

so, the moral(or lack thereof) of the story is...just win baby.  the means justify the ends?  got it.  hopefully, that isn't the accepted modus operandi of the most of us here
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 18, 2019, 08:41:22 AM
so, the moral(or lack thereof) of the story is...just win baby.  the means justify the ends?  got it.  hopefully, that isn't the accepted modus operandi of the most of us here

Some people think coaches punching players is fine as long as you win.  🤷🏼‍♂️
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: lawdog77 on December 18, 2019, 08:42:38 AM
It hasn't hurt his reputation.  Well maybe with some USC fans, but he has been considered a very good coach in the NFL for quite awhile now.  And even if the thought at the time was that he was running from USC when he went to Seattle, he rapidly proved that could succeed at the highest levels of the sport.

The NCAA penalties haven't hurt him or the USC program substantially.  What has hurt USC was a series of piss-poor personnel decisions.
Maybe the coaches/staff that USC wanted would not take the job because of the NCAA investigation/sanctions. Its not always binary
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 18, 2019, 08:46:40 AM
so, the moral(or lack thereof) of the story is...just win baby.  the means justify the ends?  got it.  hopefully, that isn't the accepted modus operandi of the most of us here


Uh...no.  Please pay attention to the topic.

The point is that the NCAA violations had no impact on Carroll's success or his reputation outside of USC. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: MU82 on December 18, 2019, 08:51:10 AM
so, the moral(or lack thereof) of the story is...just win baby.  the means justify the ends?  got it.  hopefully, that isn't the accepted modus operandi of the most of us here

The moral of the story, Boo-Boo, is that Yogi didn't know what he was talking about.

Despite your buddy's claim, cheating did not hurt Carroll, and, as others have pointed out, USC has performed much better post-Carroll cheating than it did pre-Carroll cheating.

This is not a thumbs-up for cheating. I wish nobody did it. It simply is your buddy making stuff up in his desperate attempt to prove points that aren't there. As usual.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: cheebs09 on December 18, 2019, 08:54:52 AM
Curious the cheating done by Carroll. Not challenging you, just hadn’t heard of the five instances.

I’m surprised someone would have anyone other than Belichick at the top of that list.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 18, 2019, 08:56:55 AM
Maybe the coaches/staff that USC wanted would not take the job because of the NCAA investigation/sanctions. Its not always binary


Well, Lane Kiffin was considered a "bold move."  He was a former NFL coach who was sitting coach of an SEC power at Tennessee who once was Carroll's offensive coordinator at USC.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/sports/ncaafootball/13kiffin.html

Steve Sarkisian was a successful coach from Washington who had USC roots.  Apparently he was the second choice behind Chris Petersen, but according to AD Pat Haden "was the only one to be offered the job."  (Which I know is AD speak.)

https://www.espn.com/los-angeles/college-football/story/_/id/10068739/usc-trojans-hire-steve-sarkisian-washington-huskies-new-football-coach

Now Clay Helton was serving as interim when Sarkisian was put on leave.  According to this article they did a thorough search but who knows.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/14258891/clay-helton-named-permanent-coach-usc-trojans


So I don't think the evidence suggests anything but that Kiffin and Sarkisian were anything but two of their top choices.  And maybe Sark would have eventually succeeded had it not been for his alcohol issues.  Who knows about Helton.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2019, 08:59:35 AM
Curious the cheating done by Carroll. Not challenging you, just hadn’t heard of the five instances.

I’m surprised someone would have anyone other than Belichick at the top of that list.

Quote
The Seahawks and Carroll were disciplined earlier this week for violating league rules that prohibit excessive contact during offseason workouts. Seattle will be fined $400,000 and lose a fifth-round pick in the 2017 draft for a June 6 OTA session in which two players "banged heads" during a helmet-less practice. The team will also lose the first week of organized team activities next year and Carroll was slapped with a $200,000 penalty as well.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/09/22/pete-carroll-not-bill-belichick-should-be-considered-the-nfls-foremost-cheater/#18523de1579f
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Pakuni on December 18, 2019, 09:17:17 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/09/22/pete-carroll-not-bill-belichick-should-be-considered-the-nfls-foremost-cheater/#18523de1579f

I wouldn't call that cheating, unless you think helmet-less players banging heads in a June OTA gave his team a competitive advantage that season.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2019, 09:24:45 AM
I wouldn't call that cheating, unless you think helmet-less players banging heads in a June OTA gave his team a competitive advantage that season.

Or, deserving of the Forbes “2016 Worst NFL Cheater” award for that, hey?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Charlotte Warrior on December 18, 2019, 10:35:05 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexreimer/2016/09/22/pete-carroll-not-bill-belichick-should-be-considered-the-nfls-foremost-cheater/#18523de1579f

I'm sure someone in New England had something to do with that article ;)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on December 18, 2019, 11:02:39 AM
I'm sure someone in New England had something to do with that article ;)
You are correct!  About the author:

Alex Reimer is back for his second stint with SportsMoney. Previously, Reimer was a host and columnist for WEEI in Boston, and has written for several publications, including Boston Magazine and SB Nation.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 18, 2019, 12:01:56 PM
As of mid-morning early signing period, USC has the 85th rated recruiting class.  Coaches matta
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: 79Warrior on December 18, 2019, 01:35:22 PM
As of mid-morning early signing period, USC has the 85th rated recruiting class.  Coaches matta

Yep. Pretty obvious to just about everybody.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 18, 2019, 01:42:18 PM
Yep. Pretty obvious to just about everybody.

Of the top 25 ranked California recruits, 20 are committed elsewhere than USC or UCLA.  The other 5 are trending elsewhere as well.  Coaches matta
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 09:12:50 PM
I wouldn't call that cheating, unless you think helmet-less players banging heads in a June OTA gave his team a competitive advantage that season.

He’s been caught at least five times violating nfl rules...he cannot change his spots.  Seahawks fined.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 09:17:20 PM
As of mid-morning early signing period, USC has the 85th rated recruiting class.  Coaches matta

Yeah, especially when hanging over his head was his firing that the media said did happen until it didn’t. He has been dead man walking all year, that impacts recruiting the same reason ncaa penalties and other things do.  That same coach had the 20th class last year.  Prior to that, the 4th ranked class and prior to that the 4th ranked class again....same coach....hmm

Weird.  Obvious to everyone....LOL. 


Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 09:21:32 PM

Uh...no.  Please pay attention to the topic.

The point is that the NCAA violations had no impact on Carroll's success or his reputation outside of USC.

And there you go again with an absolute and false statement.  No impact...false.


Michael Hurley wrote a good article on his cheating ways at USC that continue at Seattle....but he is a nice, likable guy. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 09:24:38 PM
The moral of the story, Boo-Boo, is that Yogi didn't know what he was talking about.

Despite your buddy's claim, cheating did not hurt Carroll, and, as others have pointed out, USC has performed much better post-Carroll cheating than it did pre-Carroll cheating.

This is not a thumbs-up for cheating. I wish nobody did it. It simply is your buddy making stuff up in his desperate attempt to prove points that aren't there. As usual.

Lol.  Where was I wrong?  USC has also performed much better pre Carroll depending on when you go back to, so that is a false statement by you.  I didn’t make anything up, his reputation took a hit, especially out here, he went to the pros....Jimmy Johnson cheated his ass off in college and went to the pros for a successful run, too.  They are not mutually exclusive.  So, as usual, you are incorrect.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 10:25:38 PM
I noticed you ran away from that thread after my "investigation" (aka reading the article you linked in a post). I was simply giving you the opportunity to live up to your promise:

You are always talking about how you wish people would admit when they make a mistake or are wrong. You still have the chance to walk the walk.

I responded
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: brewcity77 on December 18, 2019, 10:55:12 PM
I responded

By still refusing to walk that walk. Shocking.  ::)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 11:15:38 PM
This is my favorite...Rick Singer...yeah, that Rick Singer...partnering with Win Forever...Pete Carroll's Win Forever.  Poor Pete just cannot escape getting his teat caught in the ringer time and time again.  The bad luck nice guy Pete has, it truly is incredible.


(https://sportsbybrooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/RickSpringerPeteCarroll-1.png)
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Small Orange Soda on December 18, 2019, 11:21:14 PM
I responded

Dude, c'mon: You can multi-quote in one post.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 18, 2019, 11:38:13 PM
By still refusing to walk that walk. Shocking.  ::)

I said I was wrong....what grain of sand is rubbing you wrong this time?
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 08:50:00 AM
Of the top 25 ranked California recruits, 20 are committed elsewhere than USC or UCLA.  The other 5 are trending elsewhere as well.  Coaches matta

Top recruits fleeing California like so many citizens here are....smart kids.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 19, 2019, 08:52:06 AM
Top recruits fleeing California like so many citizens here are....smart kids.

Yes, it’s the bad coaches.  Some are fleeing to Ohio State who never recovered from their 2012 sanctions
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 19, 2019, 08:56:53 AM
Yeah, especially when hanging over his head was his firing that the media said did happen until it didn’t. He has been dead man walking all year, that impacts recruiting the same reason ncaa penalties and other things do.  That same coach had the 20th class last year.  Prior to that, the 4th ranked class and prior to that the 4th ranked class again....same coach....hmm

Weird.  Obvious to everyone....LOL.

He had back-to-back top 5 classes despite NCAA sanctions?  And USC had top 20 classes all decade until 2019 despite sanctions?  Wild
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 08:58:00 AM
Yes, it’s the bad coaches.  Some are fleeing to Ohio State who never recovered from their 2012 sanctions

You still haven’t explained how he had two top five classes and a top 20 the three previous years.


Meanwhile, anyone with an ounce of recruiting background knows why this happened.

https://247sports.com/Article/USC-football-Clay-Helton-2020-recruiting-class--139836839/

Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 19, 2019, 08:58:39 AM
Top recruits fleeing California like so many citizens here are....smart kids.

This seems like it has political overtones.

Also cali's population is growing still. Slowing down but still growing.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 19, 2019, 09:00:14 AM
This seems like it has political overtones.

Also cali's population is growing still. Slowing down but still growing.


Cheeks gets his butt handed to him so he goes political.  As old as time...
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 09:00:32 AM
He had back-to-back top 5 classes despite NCAA sanctions?  And USC had top 20 classes all decade until 2019 despite sanctions?  Wild

The ncaa sanctions ended long before
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 09:02:56 AM
This seems like it has political overtones.

Also cali's population is growing still. Slowing down but still growing.


People fleeing the state for all kinds of reasons.  More people leaving than coming in....many years now.  Yes, growing for other reasons like babies being born...
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 19, 2019, 09:05:57 AM
You still haven’t explained how he had two top five classes and a top 20 the three previous years.


Meanwhile, anyone with an ounce of recruiting background knows why this happened.

https://247sports.com/Article/USC-football-Clay-Helton-2020-recruiting-class--139836839/

Bad coaches have good recruiting classes.  Brady Hoke had plenty.  That’s not hard to comprehend.

The USC recruiting classes from 2010-13, when crippled by sanctions, were 3, 8, 8 and 13.

So, what you’re telling me is, sanctions didn’t cripple USC football, the media did.  That’s a different topic.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 09:06:47 AM

Cheeks gets his butt handed to him so he goes political.  As old as time...

Fluffy wrong again, playing cards he doesn’t own but plays them on behalf of others...as old as time....

Factual question...more people leaving or coming into California?  Looks like high school football players doing the same.  Good for them, a lot more to life than Cal...explore, open up your horizons...I encourage my kids to do it and think many people should leave the comforts of home to see what else is out there.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Cheeks on December 19, 2019, 09:10:46 AM
Bad coaches have good recruiting classes.  Brady Hoke had plenty.  That’s not hard to comprehend.

The USC recruiting classes from 2010-13, when crippled by sanctions, were 3, 8, 8 and 13.

So, what you’re telling me is, sanctions didn’t cripple USC football, the media did.  That’s a different topic.

Uhm, no.  What you FAIL to recognize is the scholarship reductions during those years meant lack of quality depth...bodies.  If a school has 25 scholarships, but USC can only bring in 12....even if those 12 are decently rated they are falling behind because of lack of depth and quantity.  You do realize the massive reduction of scholarships....aka...quantity...during that time?  Yes?

And yes, even bad coaches have good recruiting classes, but you bury your head in the sand to pretend his lame duck status isn’t a huge contributor to this. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Uncle Rico on December 19, 2019, 09:28:21 AM
Uhm, no.  What you FAIL to recognize is the scholarship reductions during those years meant lack of quality depth...bodies.  If a school has 25 scholarships, but USC can only bring in 12....even if those 12 are decently rated they are falling behind because of lack of depth and quantity.  You do realize the massive reduction of scholarships....aka...quantity...during that time?  Yes?

And yes, even bad coaches have good recruiting classes, but you bury your head in the sand to pretend his lame duck status isn’t a huge contributor to this.

His lame duck status is because he’s a bad coach.  No one is burying their head in the sand.  USC has failed to hire good coaches and that’s why they fail, not sanctions. 
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: brewcity77 on December 19, 2019, 09:31:28 AM
I said I was wrong....what grain of sand is rubbing you wrong this time?

You very specifically said "if I was wrong I was wrong." Lots of ifs and no actual admission.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: Ardmore Mug on December 19, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
can this thread be put on SUPERBAR ? ? ?   :P
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on December 19, 2019, 10:08:15 AM

People fleeing the state for all kinds of reasons. 
True, some flee to much whiter states.
Title: Re: USC receives level 1 notice of allegations from NCAA for basketball
Post by: rocky_warrior on December 19, 2019, 10:18:47 AM
can this thread be put on SUPERBAR ? ? ?   :P

Nope. I'll just end it. It's stupid.