MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Jockey on November 18, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
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Does Larry Walker make it in his final year on the ballot? With the weak list on the ballot - only Jeter is a sure bet, it looks like this could be Walker's year.
One other thing!!!! I beg, absolutely beg, that NOBODY engage with one particular poster who has managed to shut down the baseball thread twice. We have had many discussions / arguments that have stayed respectful and interesting. One guy changes the entire dynamic.
IGNORE HIM!!!!!!!
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POLITICS...JUST KIDDING
On a serious question. I was a Huge baseball fan as a kid...back in the late 70's early 80's. Played it every day I could. Watched the game of the week, and WGN. Knew all of the stats, historical ones as well. Now I can't watch half of an inning. How do I convince my kid to give it a chance? Or is baseball dead?
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Larry Walker does not make it
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The Brewers new logos and uniforms are incredible.
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Very cool. Nice modern look with the cool logo.
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I'm really digging them
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Wife's extended family and their dairy farm seen a few times in the video showing the logo and history of the franchise and logo.
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Yeah, the Brewers hit a home run with the rebrand. It’s like the past tipped them into a good decision going full time retro.
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On a serious question. I was a Huge baseball fan as a kid...back in the late 70's early 80's. Played it every day I could. Watched the game of the week, and WGN. Knew all of the stats, historical ones as well. Now I can't watch half of an inning. How do I convince my kid to give it a chance? Or is baseball dead?
It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
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POLITICS...JUST KIDDING
On a serious question. I was a Huge baseball fan as a kid...back in the late 70's early 80's. Played it every day I could. Watched the game of the week, and WGN. Knew all of the stats, historical ones as well. Now I can't watch half of an inning. How do I convince my kid to give it a chance? Or is baseball dead?
Dgies made some excellent points.
To your point, I too grew up on WGN. Also, played ball every day in the summer. Now, I never see kids playin’.
Too much sooner, skateboarding, and video games. To people (kids) who don’t play, it seems like a slow moving, boring game. As you know, you were never bored playing it as a kid.
I wish I could give s solution.
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It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
Don't know about Pujols, but some of the players feel like taking a huge (sorry, but 48 million is huge) haircut has a negative effect on others in salary negotiation, arbitration or free agency. Maybe he was just being a good "union guy".
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Too much sooner, skateboarding, and video games. To people (kids) who don’t play, it seems like a slow moving, boring game. As you know, you were never bored playing it as a kid.
I wish I could give s solution.
In a world of highlights, shareable moments, and viral video, MLB continues to be a stubborn dinosaur. Something amazing happens in the NBA/NFL, I can see it in my Twitter feed in moments with a few different opinions and comments. MLB? Gotta wait for official accounts to post, and they don’t always do it. MLB is so aggressive and punitive in enforcing that, it’s absurd.
It’s still very regional, I don’t think MLB markets themselves or their stars as well as they could. Couple that with a long game and an even longer season, it’s hard to create buzz. Baseball is much more enjoyable live. Opening day is fun, but then you have 2-2.5 months in the Midwest where I have no interest in sitting in crap weather for 3+ hours. Makes it hard there too.
I like baseball, I grew up playing it TONS all through HS, and I still am a passionate Cubs fan, but I’ve found it falling behind basketball, football, and soccer in terms of joy of consumption.
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It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
Pujols is seen by 3 million home fans a year. I get where you are coming from, but he wanted 10 years and a service contract after baseball. One team gave it to him. That’s where he went. The Angels knew it was a bad deal on the back end, they rolled the dice up front. Finished with the best record in baseball his third year here, but the amazing Royals swept through their first three playoff opponents until finally losing in 7 in the World Series. They gambled on a window and lost.
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POLITICS...JUST KIDDING
On a serious question. I was a Huge baseball fan as a kid...back in the late 70's early 80's. Played it every day I could. Watched the game of the week, and WGN. Knew all of the stats, historical ones as well. Now I can't watch half of an inning. How do I convince my kid to give it a chance? Or is baseball dead?
Let him come to it naturally.
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Honestly mods just ban Cheeks and 82 from the MLB threads. Who the hell can get not 1 but 2 threads locked...
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Honestly mods just ban Cheeks and 82 and sultan and tsmith and jockitch and mutafrom the MLB threads. Who the hell can get not 1 but 2 threads locked...
FIFY
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Baseball isn't dead. As the father of a 12 year old immersed in the travel baseball culture, I can assure you that it isn't dead. And the 12 year olds I interact with are as aware of their heroes as we were at that age. And the percentage of them that will not participate or will not be allowed to participate in football is quite high. Now, I fully and freely acknowledge any and all mistakes and challenges at the MLB level. But baseball isn't dead.
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In a world of highlights, shareable moments, and viral video, MLB continues to be a stubborn dinosaur. Something amazing happens in the NBA/NFL, I can see it in my Twitter feed in moments with a few different opinions and comments. MLB? Gotta wait for official accounts to post, and they don’t always do it. MLB is so aggressive and punitive in enforcing that, it’s absurd.
It’s still very regional, I don’t think MLB markets themselves or their stars as well as they could. Couple that with a long game and an even longer season, it’s hard to create buzz. Baseball is much more enjoyable live. Opening day is fun, but then you have 2-2.5 months in the Midwest where I have no interest in sitting in crap weather for 3+ hours. Makes it hard there too.
I like baseball, I grew up playing it TONS all through HS, and I still am a passionate Cubs fan, but I’ve found it falling behind basketball, football, and soccer in terms of joy of consumption.
All of this may be true, but the biggest issue I think with baseball is all the dead time and the slow but steady decrease of action. Three true outcomes baseball (walk, strikeout, home run) may be the best way to win, but it is not the most entertaining type of baseball to watch. I like the ball in play with fielders and base runners in motion. Hit and run, stealing bases (but still not the bunt), stuff like that. The best highlights in baseball and the most amazing things you see are the great defensive plays that are made, and there is less and less chance of those things happening as less and less balls are put in play. I think the most exciting thing in baseball is not the home run, but the ball deep in the gap with the centerfielder trying to chase it down, and the runner running hard (which doesn't happen now until the ball hits the ground) thinking triple.
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FIFY
Smooches, honey
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My 7 year-old son is a huge, huge MLB fan. Together, we watch a almost exclusively MLB Network. He taught me how to get the YouTube on our TV, and set up an account where we subscribe to the Major League Baseball channel. He's in second grade and can probably list the Top 10 free agents this winter.
My enjoyment certainly helped, but also video games are a big factor in him falling in love with the sport. He plays MLB The Show on Playstation (which is extremely realistic with updated stats, characters you can create using real players' batting stances, etc) all the time.
He's getting the complete set of 2019 Topps baseball cards for Christmas. His favorite players are Yasiel Puig, Jose Altuve, Cody Bellinger, and Aaron Judge (who was his Halloween costume... straight down to the same eye-black and one sleeve Judge wears). As far as I know, my son has never seen a minute of a televised football game.
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Honestly mods just ban Cheeks and 82 from the MLB threads. Who the hell can get not 1 but 2 threads locked...
Unleash, what Mu82 said was unconscionable. Simple as that. He was called out by pretty much everyone that saw it.
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Baseball isn’t dead, but I don’t think in today’s society it will be growing. Even “speeding” up the game I don’t think changes a damn thing. It is the structure of the game itself that many people just do not like, and there is no way they are changing how many balls and strikes, outs, innings, etc.
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Baseball isn't dead. As the father of a 12 year old immersed in the travel baseball culture, I can assure you that it isn't dead. And the 12 year olds I interact with are as aware of their heroes as we were at that age. And the percentage of them that will not participate or will not be allowed to participate in football is quite high. Now, I fully and freely acknowledge any and all mistakes and challenges at the MLB level. But baseball isn't dead.
You advance the point I made earlier. Baseball is anything but a slow, dull game to kids playing it.
But the perception from outside is that it is too slow and dull. It is way harder than it used to be to get kids interested.
But the same is true with adults too. There are less than a quarter as many city league teams here than when I was in my twenties.
I played 12” slow pitch, 12” fastpitch, 14”, 16”, and tournaments on weekends. Hard to even find leagues to play in now.
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It is difficult to get the baseball loving 12 years olds to sit in front of a TV and watch an entire game. Even playoffs and WS games.
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It is difficult to get the baseball loving 12 years olds to sit in front of a TV and watch an entire game. Even playoffs and WS games.
It is difficult for baseball loving twenty somethings with toddlers to sit in front of a TV and watch an entire game without falling asleep. Especially WS games.
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You advance the point I made earlier. Baseball is anything but a slow, dull game to kids playing it.
But the perception from outside is that it is too slow and dull. It is way harder than it used to be to get kids interested.
But the same is true with adults too. There are less than a quarter as many city league teams here than when I was in my twenties.
I played 12” slow pitch, 12” fastpitch, 14”, 16”, and tournaments on weekends. Hard to even find leagues to play in now.
I have heard this from people that I know that live in the Milwaukee area -- that leagues are hard to find and fill, but I'm in the Chicago burbs, and every suburb seems to have leagues on most nights of the week, that appear to be pretty well stocked. I know people that play 12" and 16" and even old man baseball.
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My 7 year-old son is a huge, huge MLB fan. Together, we watch a almost exclusively MLB Network. He taught me how to get the YouTube on our TV, and set up an account where we subscribe to the Major League Baseball channel. He's in second grade and can probably list the Top 10 free agents this winter.
My enjoyment certainly helped, but also video games are a big factor in him falling in love with the sport. He plays MLB The Show on Playstation (which is extremely realistic with updated stats, characters you can create using real players' batting stances, etc) all the time.
He's getting the complete set of 2019 Topps baseball cards for Christmas. His favorite players are Yasiel Puig, Jose Altuve, Cody Bellinger, and Aaron Judge (who was his Halloween costume... straight down to the same eye-black and one sleeve Judge wears). As far as I know, my son has never seen a minute of a televised football game.
Thats awesome, but its purely anecdotal. I can find you multiple kids the same way with hockey, especially in the Chicago area. And thats another spot with the same sort of niche/regional issues.
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From my experience with my kids and the ages/teams that i have coached is that:
kids love baseball
Kids dont watch games like we did growing up.
Kids love watching highlights, bloopers, etc on YouTube.
Kids have skills but lack baseball IQ, because they dont watch games. They dont see the strategy between pitches, the pitcher/batter duals, etc. They see the diving catches, home runs, and other "sick" plays.
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From my experience with my kids and the ages/teams that i have coached is that:
kids love baseball
Kids dont watch games like we did growing up.
Kids love watching highlights, bloopers, etc on YouTube.
Kids have skills but lack baseball IQ, because they dont watch games. They dont see the strategy between pitches, the pitcher/batter duals, etc. They see the diving catches, home runs, and other "sick" plays.
I agree with all of these. Especially about the skills. Major Leaguers lack many of the skills. too.
One in particular that drives me nuts is the way many outfielders catch fly balls when they know the runner is going to tag up. They camp under the ball, thus they have no momentum to make the throw. I was taught way back in little league to stay several paces behind the ball and then come in at the last second to catch it on the run so you have the extra momentum to make the throw instead of having to take a couple steps to throw it. Yet I see it over and over where pros does not do that.
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My kid plays baseball and enjoys it, but never cared about watching MLB games until he started playing MLB The Show on his PS4.
After learning the players and the ins and outs of the game by playing the video game, he's actually interested in MLB and will catch an occasional game on TV. And he's a big fan of going to the ballpark.
But given the choice between watching a game on TV and playing a game on PS4, he'll choose the latter 10 times out of 10.
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It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
This might be the perfect fit...
OK boomer
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From my experience with my kids and the ages/teams that i have coached is that:
kids love baseball
Kids dont watch games like we did growing up.
Kids love watching highlights, bloopers, etc on YouTube.
Kids have skills but lack baseball IQ, because they dont watch games. They dont see the strategy between pitches, the pitcher/batter duals, etc. They see the diving catches, home runs, and other "sick" plays.
This is 100% spot on. If I had to list my top ten favorite posts of the year, this would be way up there. I get frustrated trying to teach my nine year old son strategy, but man he loves watching those YouTube clips. I tried to get him to watch a 2 minute YouTube clip on pitching mechanics, and he was bored out of his mind.
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Also just to add on, baseball isn't dead with kids. There's still pockets of kids playing at the parks and sandlots.
What has changed is that sports have become much more structured and specialized. Parents prefer their children to be on 3 travel teams instead of the backyard with the neighbors.
The also now play throughout the year instead of June to August. Kids are more frequently becoming one sport athletes. Whether this is all good or bad is up for discussion.
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I fight against that. I told his new travel team coach that my son would be playing basketball this fall and that the coach could have him full time after Christmas. To his credit, the new coach extolled the virtues of playing multiple sports.
I do still get in the argument about the golf swing wrecking the baseball swing. A crock.
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I agree with all of these. Especially about the skills. Major Leaguers lack many of the skills. too.
One in particular that drives me nuts is the way many outfielders catch fly balls when they know the runner is going to tag up. They camp under the ball, thus they have no momentum to make the throw. I was taught way back in little league to stay several paces behind the ball and then come in at the last second to catch it on the run so you have the extra momentum to make the throw instead of having to take a couple steps to throw it. Yet I see it over and over where pros does not do that.
I am done coaching now, but what I noticed is that this generation of kids are better hitters than we were, but are worse fielders and base runners. I think the reason why is pretty straight forward. When I was a kid the only time you really saw game speed pitching was in the games. There are pitching machines and batting cages everywhere now, so kids can face fast pitching and curveballs regularly in practice. We also used to play pickup all the time without catcher's gear which meant softer pitching and everybody hitting. I fielded a million ground balls and fly balls just playing. Kids don't just play to play anymore and don't get that game experience.
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I am done coaching now, but what I noticed is that this generation of kids are better hitters than we were, but are worse fielders and base runners. I think the reason why is pretty straight forward. When I was a kid the only time you really saw game speed pitching was in the games. There are pitching machines and batting cages everywhere now, so kids can face fast pitching and curveballs regularly in practice. We also used to play pickup all the time without catcher's gear which meant softer pitching and everybody hitting. I fielded a million ground balls and fly balls just playing. Kids don't just play to play anymore and don't get that game experience.
I was ready to disagree with a lot of this sentiment, but I thought back to when I was a kid 20-25 years ago (holy hell, early 30s feeling like im ancient). I used to go to batting cages, but they were a mess. Good for reflexes, but not super relatable for in game hitting. But I was fielding ALL THE TIME. Bored and nobody around? Took the tennis ball to the garage and fielded grounders constantly. Had 2 close neighbors and it usually ended up being a hitter, a pitcher, and a fielder, again with a tennis ball so tracking tons of fly balls. Curveballs were also a dirty word until HS it felt like, plus the aforementioned cages, so you'd suddenly go from being a good hitter from 10-13/14 to Tim Tebow in AAA when kids spurted up and were throwing 70s and curveballs.
I was a starter and played some HS ball because I was such a good fielder and had good plate discipline. I freely admit after 12 or so I couldn't hit a lick. The approach has completely changed.
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This might be the perfect fit...
OK boomer
If being a boomer means having a personal loyalty to people, I plead guilty.
If being a boomer means wanting to touch and feel things and to interact with something that's real rather than texting someone, I plead guilty to that too.
The game has become an institution rather than personal. It's about the science of the game rather than the "up close and personal" nature of the people associated with baseball. Given the texting, emails and snippy boards people hide behind, I'm not surprised that people would classify me as a boomer.
I acknowledge technology has a place. What Sabermetrics has done to baseball is astounding (it's really data analytics applied to baseball) but the game has lost something when the personal touch is gone. It's like somebody is slowly ripping the heart out of it.
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Really like the new Brewers logo and uniform. I think the updates look much better when the logo is on its own (like on the hat) rather than in the circle. When it’s in the circle, it doesn’t look proportional and the right side looks off.
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The changes to the logo are gonna irk me as long as they use it. Love the uniforms, but don't care for the Milwaukee script on the road alts. The alternating hard edges with cursive makes it look like a kid trying to forge a parent's signature.
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If being a boomer means having a personal loyalty to people, I plead guilty.
If being a boomer means wanting to touch and feel things and to interact with something that's real rather than texting someone, I plead guilty to that too.
Loyalty to teams and organizations that would jettison you in a second if you stop performing? Baseball is a bit different because of the fully guaranteed deals, but asking for loyalty from players when organizations routinely treat players as pieces (which is totally fine when assembling a team and business) is antiquated and unfair.
As for the second part, we were talking baseball, no need to get into a pulpit to shade the younger generations, gimme a break.
You sound like the scouts in Moneyball
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If being a boomer means having a personal loyalty to people, I plead guilty.
If being a boomer means wanting to touch and feel things and to interact with something that's real rather than texting someone, I plead guilty to that too.
The game has become an institution rather than personal. It's about the science of the game rather than the "up close and personal" nature of the people associated with baseball. Given the texting, emails and snippy boards people hide behind, I'm not surprised that people would classify me as a boomer.
I acknowledge technology has a place. What Sabermetrics has done to baseball is astounding (it's really data analytics applied to baseball) but the game has lost something when the personal touch is gone. It's like somebody is slowly ripping the heart out of it.
::) OK boomer
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It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
Why are the players the ones who are always supposed to be loyal?
Regardless, this is way down on the list of reasons why baseball isn't watched much by younger generations. Pace of play and regional televising are the two largest.
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This is 100% spot on. If I had to list my top ten favorite posts of the year, this would be way up there. I get frustrated trying to teach my nine year old son strategy, but man he loves watching those YouTube clips. I tried to get him to watch a 2 minute YouTube clip on pitching mechanics, and he was bored out of his mind.
I mean...he's nine. This isn't' just a "kids these days" phenominon. If you would have lectured me for two minutes on pitching mechanics back as a nine year old, I would have been bored out of my mind too.
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The changes to the logo are gonna irk me as long as they use it. Love the uniforms, but don't care for the Milwaukee script on the road alts. The alternating hard edges with cursive makes it look like a kid trying to forge a parent's signature.
The Brewers public relations department deserves a ton of credit for making the change of a logo an "event." I'd have to imagine sports logos get tweaked all the time; I saw news of the Milwaukee's update scrolling on the ESPN ticker last night.
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I mean...he's nine. This isn't' just a "kids these days" phenominon. If you would have lectured me for two minutes on pitching mechanics back as a nine year old, I would have been bored out of my mind too.
Some context though, my son had asked me to take slo mo video on my iphone of his pitching motion so we could watch it together, and he could analyze things. We did that, and it didn't seem to get through to him with his mechanics/release point. I thought a two minute video would help, but yes, I was mistaken.
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The Brewers public relations department deserves a ton of credit for making the change of a logo an "event." I'd have to imagine sports logos get tweaked all the time; I saw news of the Milwaukee's update scrolling on the ESPN ticker last night.
I agree. However, I think since the "MB" logo was so iconic and beloved, it was more than a simple logo tweak. Like if the Grizzlies went back to the teal Vancouver era jerseys as more than just their "city" jersey
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Yaz to the White Sox for $73M/4 years. He bet on himself and won.
In the world of "Not my Money", re-signing him was a must for the Brewers. Not sure you find those wins above replacement with that money in any other combination of players.
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It's not dead, but it manages to shoot itself in the foot very nicely every few years. Like you, I grew up to love baseball. Many on the board know I am a very loyal St. Louis Cardinal fan. I can go to a game in person and enjoy myself, but the reality is watching it on TV is about as hard as watching TV golf.
One of the big problems baseball has is that it has no local loyalty anymore. Yeah, players always have been traded and, occasionally, big names moved. But since free agency, baseball has been about money -- to the detriment of everything else. I remember as a kid in Nashville waiting in line to shake hands with Mickey Mantle. Or meeting Eddie Matthews and Phil Niekro at a Braves caravan. Today, their descendants would charge out the nose for the same minute or so I had with each of those superstars.
Likewise, certain superstars were identified with a city. Mantle with the Yankees. Banks with the Cubs. Schmidt with the Phillies. Kaline, Freehan, Lolich et al with those godawful Detroit Tigers. Killebrew with the Twins etc. Musial, Brock, Gibson, Ozzie with the Cardinals.
The breaking point for me was Albert Pujols. Yeah, I know, he was a Cardinal. It was probably better for the team that he left and the money spent elsewhere. But the circumstances surrounding his departure from St. Louis were sad. The Cardinals offered Mr. Pujols $300 million and the chance to be revered the way Musial had been in St. Louis -- as in forever. For $48 million more of Artie Moreno's money, he went to California, where he has not been seen nor heard from since. Plus his obnoxious wife said he was dishonored because the Cardinals wouldn't match the Angels' offer.
If we were arguing about $2.0 million versus $4.0 million or $5.0 million, OK I get it. We're arguing about the difference between a good life and a very comfortable one. But $300 million versus $348 million -- uhh, most of us little people have no clue what those numbers mean. And I question whether there was anything more than greed and probably vanity involved.
Pujols is the poster child for, "Are you kidding me?" He's made a boatload of money but too many like him are slowly destroying the game that pays them.
The final Cardinals offer for Pujols was a little North of $200 million. The Angels offered $254 million. Both of these were over 10 years. The Angels also included 10 more years of a personal services contract after his 10 year playing contract. Albert has said he will play until his contract ends. The Marlins were also in play for his services at the time but were not a finalist.
Pujols was very underpaid throughout his time in St. Louis vs his value and performance. At one point during his best years he was playing on an 8 year $14.5 million contract. The Cardinals have had a long history of some players taking less than what they can get on the open market to play or stay in St. Louis. But that isn't always the case and won't be moving forward.
The team was trying to transition to a drafting player development strategy foundation from the past where Uncle Walt Jocketty was very good with free agent deals, trades, etc....His agent Danny Lozano was a big factor in negotiations. The Cardinals had better history with other agents, including Boras. ARod was making $275 million at the time. Albert was seeing all of these other players passing him up for years in compensation. Many of these players were not stars. So when the time came Albert wanted to get paid while the Cardinals wanted him but knew he was transitioning to the downside years of his career.
The team was surprised at the tough negotiations. The team did not go up a lot during negotiations. They were far apart. Timing was never aligned well for both sides in his contract deals there. make no mistske, the Cardinals did very well financially with Albert. Albert felt disrespected. He wanted fair market value. He still spends a lot of time in St. Louis, he has charities there, has a home there. He's still very popular there and not surprisingly received endless ovations when the Angels were finally on the home schedule last season.
The current owners of the Cardinals bought the team in 1996 for $150 million. It included parking garages which were immediately sold for $75 million at the time. Team's most recent Forbes valuation was $2.1 billion. They get 3-4 million fans annually, they have a new tv deal, they have a several phase neighborhood development project going surrounding the stadium. It's easy to point blame at the high profile perfomer/athlete/talent. But the Cardinals are not Little Sisters of the Poor.
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The final Cardinals offer for Pujols was a little North of $200 million. The Angels offered $254 million. Both of these were over 10 years. The Angels also included 10 more years of a personal services contract after his 10 year playing contract. Albert has said he will play until his contract ends. The Marlins were also in play for his services at the time but were not a finalist. Pujols was very underpaid throughout his time in St. Louis vs his value and performance. At one point during his best years he was playing on an 8 year $14.5 million contract. The Cardinals have had a long history of some players taking less than what they can get on the open market to play or stay in St. Louis. But that isn't always the case and won't be moving forward. The team was trying to transition to a drafting player development strategy foundation from the past where Uncle Walt Jocketty was very good with free agent deals, trades, etc....His agent Danny Lozano was a big factor in negotiations. The Cardinals had better history with other agents, including Boras. ARod was making $275 million at the time. Albert was seeing all of these other players passing him up for years in compensation. Many of these players were not stars. So when the time came Albert wanted to get paid while the Cardinals wanted him but knew he was transitioning to the downside years of his career. The team was surprised at the tough negotiations. They did not go up a lot during negotiations. They were far apart. Timing was never aligned well for both sides in his contract deals there. make no mistske, the Cardinals did very financially with Albert. Albert felt disrespected. He wanted fair market value. He still spends a lot of time in St. Louis, he has charities there, has a home there. He's still very popular there and not surprisingly received endless ovations when the Angels were finally on the home schedule last season. The current owners of the Cardinals bought the team in 1996 for $150 million. It included parking garages which were immediately sold for $75 million at the time. Team's most recent Forbes valuation was/is $2.1 billion. They get 3-4 million fans annually, they have a new tv deal, they have a several phase neighborhood development project going surrounding the stadium. It's easy to point blame at the high profile perfomer/athlete/talent. But the Cardinals are not Little Sisters of the Poor.
Paragraphs make everything, (including long descriptions of Pujols' departure from the Cardinals 9 years ago), easier to read.
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Yaz to the White Sox for $73M/4 years. He bet on himself and won.
In the world of "Not my Money", re-signing him was a must for the Brewers. Not sure you find those wins above replacement with that money in any other combination of players.
Yeah no. Not a "must" by any means. And that contract won't look good by the end.
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Paragraphs make everything, (including long descriptions of Pujols' departure from the Cardinals 9 years ago), easier to read.
True. Fair enough. They were there when I typed it. I fixed it.
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I have heard this from people that I know that live in the Milwaukee area -- that leagues are hard to find and fill, but I'm in the Chicago burbs, and every suburb seems to have leagues on most nights of the week, that appear to be pretty well stocked. I know people that play 12" and 16" and even old man baseball.
Ehhh, can confirm 16” is unfortunately dying. When I graduated high school on 2011 I joined my coaches team that played at a park in the city.
Those leagues went from 12 teams and had two leagues, one one Monday and one on Thursday, down to just the Monday league with 6 teams currently.
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Yeah no. Not a "must" by any means. And that contract won't look good by the end.
Maybe. Very few long term deals for players over 30 look good at the end. But the guy has been a stud the last 4-5 years. Big, big signing for the White Sox. Hoping for more.
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Yeah no. Not a "must" by any means. And that contract won't look good by the end.
Why won’t it be good at the end? 4 years, he’s going to the AL where he can DH, no deferred money, it’s straight 18.5 each year. For one of the best at his position, it maybe 10% too high, but that’s a reasonable contract otherwise.
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Why won’t it be good at the end? 4 years, he’s going to the AL where he can DH, no deferred money, it’s straight 18.5 each year. For one of the best at his position, it maybe 10% too high, but that’s a reasonable contract otherwise.
We will see. When catchers fall off, they fall off quickly.
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We will see. When catchers fall off, they fall off quickly.
He’s going to DH at least twice a week. Once Abreu leaves after next year, he’ll spell Vaughn (assuming he takes over) at 1B. The wear and tear of catching in the AL will benefit him into his mid 30’s.
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I have been umpiring youth baseball since 2013, mostly 9-12 year olds playing rec ball. Just in that short time, the quality of play in general has gone down; in the case of a couple of the leagues, it has gone down substantially.
(I live in Charlotte, where the season goes from early-March to mid-June and then there's a fall season from Sept-Nov. And many winter days, it's warm enough to practice outside. Plus, there are quite a few indoor facilities.)
Interestingly, though, the travel teams' quality of play has stayed consistently good, and one team this year won its age group nationally.
I assume that means the creme de la creme plays purely a travel schedule, leaving the relative "dregs" to play rec ball.
My first 2-3 years, I was actually quite impressed with the level of play for most of the rec leagues involving 10-year-olds. Now, frankly, it's bad. I did have a couple of coaches tell me in one of the historically strong associations that they had to let numerous 9-year-olds play with the 10s this year because there weren't enough kids interested to make 6 teams.
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I have been umpiring youth baseball since 2013, mostly 9-12 year olds playing rec ball. Just in that short time, the quality of play in general has gone down; in the case of a couple of the leagues, it has gone down substantially.
(I live in Charlotte, where the season goes from early-March to mid-June and then there's a fall season from Sept-Nov. And many winter days, it's warm enough to practice outside. Plus, there are quite a few indoor facilities.)
Interestingly, though, the travel teams' quality of play has stayed consistently good, and one team this year won its age group nationally.
I assume that means the creme de la creme plays purely a travel schedule, leaving the relative "dregs" to play rec ball.
That's exactly what is happening. Not just baseball. It's a shame.
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He’s going to DH at least twice a week. Once Abreu leaves after next year, he’ll spell Vaughn (assuming he takes over) at 1B. The wear and tear of catching in the AL will benefit him into his mid 30’s.
Good point, Dish. How many games do you think he catches a year? 100-110?
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Good point, Dish. How many games do you think he catches a year? 100-110?
Probably somewhere around there, especially if they keep McCann. I think if they keep McCann, he'll catch Giolito and probably Cease, and Grandal will catch Lopez/Kopech/TBD. Unless they sign Encarnacion, which I don't think they'll do unless he's dirt cheap, I think they'll play DH roulette with their roster, and if they are in contention, they can pick up a bat at the deadline.
I don't mind if the Sox keep the DH spot open, if they were to sign Castellanos (not good defensively), and with Jimenez's terrible defense, they can move bats around. The Grandal signing gives them a ton of roster flexibility that they didn't have previously. Their depth has been brutal. Once Madrigal and Robert are up mid April next year, they'll be an interesting lineup if nothing else.
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Grandal is real good, and I don't think its a bad deal for the Sox. They have the $ to spend, a lot of young controllable talent, and can afford the splurge for one of the better veteran catchers in baseball. I also think its a deal the Brewers were right not to be involved with. Yaz is very good. But his WAR over the past three years (among catchers): 2.9 (7th) 2.2 (15th), 3.3 (2nd), 2.5 (8th).
That's among the more consistent in baseball and should keep catcher stable for the ChiSox - worth the $ given where they are. But for that WAR, and given the Brewers budget and other needs, I think they're better off mixing and matching at C with shorter cheap deals.
EDIT: I'm a dumb and was only looking at batting WAR. I'll dig a bit deeper into total WAR numbers (which will take Grandals + defense into account and undoubtedly boost him) in a bit.
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I have been umpiring youth baseball since 2013, mostly 9-12 year olds playing rec ball. Just in that short time, the quality of play in general has gone down; in the case of a couple of the leagues, it has gone down substantially.
(I live in Charlotte, where the season goes from early-March to mid-June and then there's a fall season from Sept-Nov. And many winter days, it's warm enough to practice outside. Plus, there are quite a few indoor facilities.)
Interestingly, though, the travel teams' quality of play has stayed consistently good, and one team this year won its age group nationally.
I assume that means the creme de la creme plays purely a travel schedule, leaving the relative "dregs" to play rec ball.
My first 2-3 years, I was actually quite impressed with the level of play for most of the rec leagues involving 10-year-olds. Now, frankly, it's bad. I did have a couple of coaches tell me in one of the historically strong associations that they had to let numerous 9-year-olds play with the 10s this year because there weren't enough kids interested to make 6 teams.
Happening in every sport. Rec Leagues are basically dead. South Milwaukee joined with Cudahy. They have 4 teams for 4th and 5th basketball.
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Probably somewhere around there, especially if they keep McCann. I think if they keep McCann, he'll catch Giolito and probably Cease, and Grandal will catch Lopez/Kopech/TBD. Unless they sign Encarnacion, which I don't think they'll do unless he's dirt cheap, I think they'll play DH roulette with their roster, and if they are in contention, they can pick up a bat at the deadline.
I don't mind if the Sox keep the DH spot open, if they were to sign Castellanos (not good defensively), and with Jimenez's terrible defense, they can move bats around. The Grandal signing gives them a ton of roster flexibility that they didn't have previously. Their depth has been brutal. Once Madrigal and Robert are up mid April next year, they'll be an interesting lineup if nothing else.
You and Pakuni mentioned a possible trade for Betts (sounds like Boston is willing). What about about Starling Marte?
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You and Pakuni mentioned a possible trade for Betts (sounds like Boston is willing). What about about Starling Marte?
Possible. Depends on the price. He'll be 32 at the end of 2020 season, so he's not a long-term answer like Betts could be. Also never played RF, though I don't see why he wouldn't be able.
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You and Pakuni mentioned a possible trade for Betts (sounds like Boston is willing). What about about Starling Marte?
I certainly like Marte. I think they'll try to address pitching first before they figure out RF, which makes sense. Making the Grandal move first was really helpful to help them maneuver from here.
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Yeah, I had mentioned Marte in the other thread. In an excessively long and rambling post, but the Pirates have made no secret they are starting over. I'd guess both Marte and Polanco will be available. I don't know if the Sox have the tier 2 prospects to make it work, and neither of those guys are worth their tier 1 guys.
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EDIT: I'm a dumb and was only looking at batting WAR. I'll dig a bit deeper into total WAR numbers (which will take Grandals + defense into account and undoubtedly boost him) in a bit.
Okay figured out my problem was not reducing the PAs to nonqualifiers on fangraphs. I used 300 as a cutoff - so for the last three years Yaz's WAR figures are 4.1 (6th), 4.7 (2nd), 5.2 (2nd). Pretty, pretty, pretty good. I still think the Brewers were right not to sign him to that kind of deal, mostly because there are a lot of guys turning in good years on inexpensive one year deals. This year alone, Christian Vasquez and Roberto Perez turned in 3+ WAR years to rank 4th and 5th, James McCann was 8th at 2.3 WAR. Plus if you're factoring time at 1B or DH, his 4+ WAR doesn't make him quite as much of an outlier as just comparing him to catchers. But the gap between Grandal and most dudes is still wide enough to make this a fine signing.
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The current owners of the Cardinals bought the team in 1996 for $150 million. It included parking garages which were immediately sold for $75 million at the time. Team's most recent Forbes valuation was $2.1 billion. They get 3-4 million fans annually, they have a new tv deal, they have a several phase neighborhood development project going surrounding the stadium. It's easy to point blame at the high profile perfomer/athlete/talent. But the Cardinals are not Little Sisters of the Poor.
First of all, I never said the Cardinals were nuns on a vow of poverty. They're a for-profit baseball team that entertains the Bi-State area and much of the mid-south and Midwest.
The Cardinals are probably the most successful middle market team in America. Their attendance, television contracts, radio networks, promotions and merchandising are among the best in baseball. The reason is because they've figured out a way to put a near-top tier product on the field almost every year while living within their means.
The whole point of my issue about Pujols is less $200.0 million or $300.0 million versus $240.0 million to $340 million. It has to do with the inability of people to be close to and identify with the superstars in their community. That matters. Mickey Mantle was an icon because of the NYC media and, because, he was one of "us". Ditto for a Reggie Jackson, Ozzie Smith, Mike Trout, Paul Goldschmidt, Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada (who my son met several years ago in a Nordstrom's in downtown Seattle). Note that Jeter and Posada were lifetime Yankees.
Is this the only reason baseball is in decline? Of course not. As I said in my lead, baseball manages to find a way to shoot itself in the foot every few years. But losing the personal touch matters and losing the ability to identify with a local superstar matters too.
As a final thought, I do not begrudge any of these guys going for the gold, if that's what they want. I said I was disgusted by Pujols because of the way in which he left St. Louis. I still am. Pujols wanted a Michael Jordan "make-up" contract, which Jordan received from the Bulls in his last years primarily because the Bulls knew they'd win a World Championship with Jordan. The Cardinals obviously were confident they weren't going to win another couple of World Championships just because they resigned Pujols.
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dg: As an objective observer who neither loves nor loathes the Cardinals, I see absolutely no problem with the way Pujols left St. Louis.
He wanted more money than they were willing to give him; the Angels threw it at him; he left. Some guys will give a "hometown discount," some won't. He didn't say, "The Cardinals can go to hell," or anything like that. He just went where the $$ was. That's free agency. Happens all the time.
Otherwise, agree with your post. St. Louis is a unique baseball market, and the Cards have done a great job.
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First of all, I never said the Cardinals were nuns on a vow of poverty. They're a for-profit baseball team that entertains the Bi-State area and much of the mid-south and Midwest.
The Cardinals are probably the most successful middle market team in America. Their attendance, television contracts, radio networks, promotions and merchandising are among the best in baseball. The reason is because they've figured out a way to put a near-top tier product on the field almost every year while living within their means.
The whole point of my issue about Pujols is less $200.0 million or $300.0 million versus $240.0 million to $340 million. It has to do with the inability of people to be close to and identify with the superstars in their community. That matters. Mickey Mantle was an icon because of the NYC media and, because, he was one of "us". Ditto for a Reggie Jackson, Ozzie Smith, Mike Trout, Paul Goldschmidt, Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada (who my son met several years ago in a Nordstrom's in downtown Seattle). Note that Jeter and Posada were lifetime Yankees.
Is this the only reason baseball is in decline? Of course not. As I said in my lead, baseball manages to find a way to shoot itself in the foot every few years. But losing the personal touch matters and losing the ability to identify with a local superstar matters too.
As a final thought, I do not begrudge any of these guys going for the gold, if that's what they want. I said I was disgusted by Pujols because of the way in which he left St. Louis. I still am. Pujols wanted a Michael Jordan "make-up" contract, which Jordan received from the Bulls in his last years primarily because the Bulls knew they'd win a World Championship with Jordan. The Cardinals obviously were confident they weren't going to win another couple of World Championships just because they resigned Pujols.
So you're "disgusted" with him because he used his right to go to a different employer and get paid more? He doesn't owe you anything.
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First of all, I never said the Cardinals were nuns on a vow of poverty. They're a for-profit baseball team that entertains the Bi-State area and much of the mid-south and Midwest.
The Cardinals are probably the most successful middle market team in America. Their attendance, television contracts, radio networks, promotions and merchandising are among the best in baseball. The reason is because they've figured out a way to put a near-top tier product on the field almost every year while living within their means.
The whole point of my issue about Pujols is less $200.0 million or $300.0 million versus $240.0 million to $340 million. It has to do with the inability of people to be close to and identify with the superstars in their community. That matters. Mickey Mantle was an icon because of the NYC media and, because, he was one of "us". Ditto for a Reggie Jackson, Ozzie Smith, Mike Trout, Paul Goldschmidt, Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada (who my son met several years ago in a Nordstrom's in downtown Seattle). Note that Jeter and Posada were lifetime Yankees.
Is this the only reason baseball is in decline? Of course not. As I said in my lead, baseball manages to find a way to shoot itself in the foot every few years. But losing the personal touch matters and losing the ability to identify with a local superstar matters too.
As a final thought, I do not begrudge any of these guys going for the gold, if that's what they want. I said I was disgusted by Pujols because of the way in which he left St. Louis. I still am. Pujols wanted a Michael Jordan "make-up" contract, which Jordan received from the Bulls in his last years primarily because the Bulls knew they'd win a World Championship with Jordan. The Cardinals obviously were confident they weren't going to win another couple of World Championships just because they resigned Pujols.
The Cardinals had as I'm sure you know the first baseball team West of the Mississippi and a radio station that reached almost all fifty states. They had and have a unique national fan base compared to other like teams that is bigger than just local and regional.
The Cardinals made a business decision and they had a number in mind that they were willing to pay. It didn't work out.
MLB did $10.3 Billion in revenue last year.
Pujols is an icon in St. Louis. That hasn't changed and isn't going to change. He was there 11 elite seasons, won a few WS Titles. Perhaps don't confuse your opinion with reality or those of a market. He will be a HOF, get his Stl statue and retired number and red jacket. He will be involved the same way as Brock, Gibson, Smith, and the others. He's also highly respected around the country. But that doesn't matter in this conversation as much as the other points. You conceded the actual Pujols contract numbers which were a bit different. Free agency, salary caps have all contributed to players changing teams.
Did you miss the countless ovations like this one for a road player in one weekend as received last year?
https://youtu.be/DWGV5X4u70Y
You mentioned Reggie Jackson for example, a high profile player for the Athletics. He wanted more money, Oakland wasn't going to pay it, so he was traded to Baltimore. He wanted more money and signed a big deal at the time with the Yankees the next season. How does that make him an icon and not Pujols? I don't quite understand. Andy Petite would have been a better example because he was a home grown Yankee, an exception during their elite recent history 17 year rub along with Mariano Rivera. Having success in NYC makes anyone an icon.
What I don't see in your posts is angst towards the owners. No one is forcing owners to pay the money. And, the players are the talent, the entertainment. You are talking about a team that went from $75 million purchase price to two decades later having a $2.1 billion valuation and growing. Your sentiment is not that uncommon. Players are an easy target because that is who people go to see and watch on tv. They aren't watching the owners.
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First of all, great discussion and I am enjoying the back and forth. Even if I don't agree with you guys, this is what baseball is about!!!!!
First of all, I'm not disgusted with Pujols as a free agent. I'm disappointed that the loyalty factor isn't there. Recall, I also said that if they want to go for the gold, I don't begrudge them.
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As for the owners, look, this isn't 1965 or even 1975. The Major League Baseball Players Association may be the most powerful union in America. To the extent that the owners are suffering, they did it to themselves with their incessant and immoral defense of the Reserve Clause. The players didn't trust the owners back then and that distrust has been handled down from generation to generation of MLB fan.
There are some really good owners -- like Bill DeWitt or the O'Malleys in Los Angeles or even the despised King George. And then there's the Miami Marlins. Logical baseball city, good solid market, living off transfer payments from teams that violate the salary cap.
I think of Reggie as New York, even though America's favorite flavor of hot dog and candy bar played first for Oakland and Baltimore. And, no, I don't think Pujols will get a statue. The only Cardinals that have a small one after leaving for another team (as I recall) appeared to be Slaughter, who played past his prime in New York and Schoendiest, who played past his prime in Milwaukee.
Honoring Pujols on Stadium Plaza is like honoring Steve Carlton there too. Not going to happen!
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Honoring Pujols on Stadium Plaza is like honoring Steve Carlton there too. Not going to happen!
Pujols won as many MVPs for the Cardinals as Stan Musial did. I think he deserves a little more credit.
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First of all, great discussion and I am enjoying the back and forth. Even if I don't agree with you guys, this is what baseball is about!!!!!
Couldn't agree more. This is what makes baseball fun.
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First of all, great discussion and I am enjoying the back and forth. Even if I don't agree with you guys, this is what baseball is about!!!!!
First of all, I'm not disgusted with Pujols as a free agent. I'm disappointed that the loyalty factor isn't there. Recall, I also said that if they want to go for the gold, I don't begrudge them.
So you're not against players being free agents and not going to hold grudges for going for the best deals for them and their families they can get, just when they have they have the gall to leave the exalted Redbirds, cause you're holding a grudge against Pujols for doing just that.
You're a knowledgeable fan and a reasonable guy to talk baseball with but your baffling refusal to own your Cardinals homerism does a disservice to all of us. You may not be a blind homer, but the DOT would deem you visually impaired 8-)
And Pujols and Carlton are nowhere near the same. Carlton left in his mid 20s as a good player who became a dominant HOF pitcher with the Phillies. Pujols left STL a 3 time MVP with a boatload of awards and a first ballot HOF player. Much more accomplished as a Cardinal than either Slaughter or Schoendiest. And convenient revisionist history on Schoendiest, he and Pujols left at the same age and he went on to be an All Star and win a WS with the Giants right after leaving STL. Not giving Pujols recognition would be petty and spiteful to one of the 5 greatest Cardinals of all time.
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To return to our "is Derek Jeter overrated?" discussion, (Locked Thread #2), a writer voted for Jeter-- and only Jeter-- on this year's ballot.
https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412 (https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412)
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I don’t think he is the only voter who will do this. He obviously deserves to be in, but I thought the article was ridiculous.
Would Jeter be considered a “winner” if he had played his entire career in San Diego or Pittsburgh or Minnesota? Of course not. There would be no one saying that. But when you play your entire career for the biggest spending team ever, it’s kinda easy to be a winner.
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To return to our "is Derek Jeter overrated?" discussion, (Locked Thread #2), a writer voted for Jeter-- and only Jeter-- on this year's ballot.
https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412 (https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412)
First sentence: “Derek Jeter was a singular player and person in baseball history.”
Dear lord...
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First of all, great discussion and I am enjoying the back and forth. Even if I don't agree with you guys, this is what baseball is about!!!!!
First of all, I'm not disgusted with Pujols as a free agent. I'm disappointed that the loyalty factor isn't there. Recall, I also said that if they want to go for the gold, I don't begrudge them.
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As for the owners, look, this isn't 1965 or even 1975. The Major League Baseball Players Association may be the most powerful union in America. To the extent that the owners are suffering, they did it to themselves with their incessant and immoral defense of the Reserve Clause. The players didn't trust the owners back then and that distrust has been handled down from generation to generation of MLB fan.
There are some really good owners -- like Bill DeWitt or the O'Malleys in Los Angeles or even the despised King George. And then there's the Miami Marlins. Logical baseball city, good solid market, living off transfer payments from teams that violate the salary cap.
I think of Reggie as New York, even though America's favorite flavor of hot dog and candy bar played first for Oakland and Baltimore. And, no, I don't think Pujols will get a statue. The only Cardinals that have a small one after leaving for another team (as I recall) appeared to be Slaughter, who played past his prime in New York and Schoendiest, who played past his prime in Milwaukee.
Honoring Pujols on Stadium Plaza is like honoring Steve Carlton there too. Not going to happen!
One of the safest bets around is that Pujols will be honored by the Cardinals when he retires. Again, respectfully, I believe you are confusing your opinion of a player vs the opinion of a team/organization, and masses of a large fan base which are different than yours. Pujols played 11 seasons as one of the best in baseball during that time. and, as an all time great. He was remarkably underpaid during that time. The Cardinals made the post season 7 times in his 11 years there and won two World Series Titles.
Based on your feelings here you wouldn’t have likely been a Reggie Jackson fan if you were an Athletics fan. Jackson won more WS Titles there than NYC. He was an MVP at both and split his all stars with both (14) How could you not think of both teams? Is Jackson loyal, iconic to you? Yep. But AP isn’t? You said you were, “disappointed the loyalty factor wasn’t there” for Pujols. Jackson left the Athletics (where he was an MVP, 3 WS titles, several time all star, etc...for more money elsewhere. Do you see how your point perhaps seems very inconsistent at best? You like Reggie as a Yankee, but that doesn’t change all of those 9 years with the Athletics and the way he left. You don’t like the way Albert left but it was in the same way, and unlike Reggie he was paid far under fair market value for 11 years of his services.
You said no honors for AP because other Cardinal Hall of Famers that finished elsewhere don’t have them.....except.....Dean, Hornsby,
Schoendist, Slaughter, Sutter, Sisler (Browns), Cool Papa Bell (Stars) all have those honors at Busch and none finished their careers there...Brock, Gibson, Smith, Musial are the HOF-ers that finished there.
It comes across as though you just pick and choose with inconsistent reasoning based on your own personal feelings for a player, or team etc...and that’s fine, nothing wrong with that. But your personal likes and dislikes may be different from the actual facts or the opinions of a larger group.
I believe you are a bit removed or out of the loop when reading the feelings of the Cardinals team management and fan base when it comes to Pujols, perhaps, confusing your sour grapes with their red carpet treatment so to speak.
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One of the safest bets around is that Pujols will be honored by the Cardinals when he retires. Again, respectfully, I believe you are confusing your opinion of a player vs the opinion of a team/organization, and masses of a large fan base which are different than yours. Pujols played 11 seasons as one of the best in baseball during that time. and, as an all time great. He was remarkably underpaid during that time. The Cardinals made the post season 7 times in his 11 years there and won two World Series Titles.
Based on your feelings here you wouldn’t have likely been a Reggie Jackson fan if you were an Athletics fan. Jackson won more WS Titles there than NYC. He was an MVP at both and split his all stars with both (14) How could you not think of both teams? Is Jackson loyal, iconic to you? Yep. But AP isn’t? You said you were, “disappointed the loyalty factor wasn’t there” for Pujols. Jackson left the Athletics (where he was an MVP, 3 WS titles, several time all star, etc...for more money elsewhere. Do you see how your point perhaps seems very inconsistent at best? You like Reggie as a Yankee, but that doesn’t change all of those 9 years with the Athletics and the way he left. You don’t like the way Albert left but it was in the same way, and unlike Reggie he was paid far under fair market value for 11 years of his services.
You said no honors for AP because other Cardinal Hall of Famers that finished elsewhere don’t have them.....except.....Dean, Hornsby,
Schoendist, Slaughter, Sutter, Sisler (Browns), Cool Papa Bell (Stars) all have those honors at Busch and none finished their careers there...Brock, Gibson, Smith, Musial are the HOF-ers that finished there.
It comes across as though you just pick and choose with inconsistent reasoning based on your own personal feelings for a player, or team etc...and that’s fine, nothing wrong with that. But your personal likes and dislikes may be different from the actual facts or the opinions of a larger group.
I believe you are a bit removed or out of the loop when reading the feelings of the Cardinals team management and fan base when it comes to Pujols, perhaps, confusing your sour grapes with their red carpet treatment so to speak.
We'll see over time who is right. You may well be and I can't say I blame the Cardinals if they do honor Pujols. And, I'll concede most of Cardinal nation probably has a different feeling about the guy than I do based on the ovation Pujols received when he was at Busch III last summer.
You're probably also right that my feelings about Albert today arise from the Pujols departure. In time, all wounds are healed and maybe even this one. Heck, I even like Steve Carlton and think much of the Cardinal malaise of the 1970s started the day he and Gussie Busch could not close a $5,000 negotiating gap. The Cardinals were boobs for letting him go over that.
As to Reggie, if I was an Oakland As fan (and I thought those teams in the 1970s were something special), I would have hated Owner Charlie Finley for allowing what happened there to happen. Finley was a visionary but he was cheap and dishonest and never exploited the special nature of what he had the way Steinbrenner did when Reggie got to New York. And if you're going to talk about genuinely great teams and the way the wheels flew off, the 1976 Cincinnati Reds and the way their ownership treated their players qualifies.
The Reds had HOFers in Johnny Bench, Pete Rose (a Cincinnati native), Joe Morgan and Tony Perez and let them all go because GM Bob Howsam had a saying: "Make no change and make it retroactive." Yes, I know, Rose is not in the HOF, but he should be.
My point is that things are a two-way street, as you point out Brother Shoothoops, between owners and players. The distrust that goes back generations between owners and players is in no small measure what I'm griping about and is a key issue in why we have the free agency we have today. The aforementioned Carlton problem was legendary and Peoples Exhibit Number 1 for why we can't just blame the players.
End of the day, despite my feelings, Albert is a great player who belongs in the HOF. If the Cardinals choose to honor him with a statue next to Musial's, go for it.
P.S. -- Cool Papa Bell SHOULD have played for the St. Louis Cardinals. He never did because of racism and discrimination that prevailed in the 1930s and 1940s in baseball. Thank you, Commissioner Landis. He has a statue erected in his honor at Busch because of his Negro League achievements and because he was a long-time St. Louis resident. The other major Cardinal statues are Brock, Gibson and Musial.
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We'll see over time who is right. You may well be and I can't say I blame the Cardinals if they do honor Pujols. And, I'll concede most of Cardinal nation probably has a different feeling about the guy than I do based on the ovation Pujols received when he was at Busch III last summer.
You're probably also right that my feelings about Albert today arise from the Pujols departure. In time, all wounds are healed and maybe even this one. Heck, I even like Steve Carlton and think much of the Cardinal malaise of the 1970s started the day he and Gussie Busch could not close a $5,000 negotiating gap. The Cardinals were boobs for letting him go over that.
As to Reggie, if I was an Oakland As fan (and I thought those teams in the 1970s were something special), I would have hated Owner Charlie Finley for allowing what happened there to happen. Finley was a visionary but he was cheap and dishonest and never exploited the special nature of what he had the way Steinbrenner did when Reggie got to New York. And if you're going to talk about genuinely great teams and the way the wheels flew off, the 1976 Cincinnati Reds and the way their ownership treated their players qualifies.
The Reds had HOFers in Johnny Bench, Pete Rose (a Cincinnati native), Joe Morgan and Tony Perez and let them all go because GM Bob Howsam had a saying: "Make no change and make it retroactive." Yes, I know, Rose is not in the HOF, but he should be.
My point is that things are a two-way street, as you point out Brother Shoothoops, between owners and players. The distrust that goes back generations between owners and players is in no small measure what I'm griping about and is a key issue in why we have the free agency we have today. The aforementioned Carlton problem was legendary and Peoples Exhibit Number 1 for why we can't just blame the players.
End of the day, despite my feelings, Albert is a great player who belongs in the HOF. If the Cardinals choose to honor him with a statue next to Musial's, go for it.
P.S. -- Cool Papa Bell SHOULD have played for the St. Louis Cardinals. He never did because of racism and discrimination that prevailed in the 1930s and 1940s in baseball. Thank you, Commissioner Landis. He has a statue erected in his honor at Busch because of his Negro League achievements and because he was a long-time St. Louis resident. The other major Cardinal statues are Brock, Gibson and Musial.
No disagreements here. 👍
Carlton will go down historically as one of the worst Cardinal trades ever. (He does deserve to be honored in some way at Busch in my opinion)
I'm not sure you keep up with it but The Cardinals do also have a Team Hall of Fame. And that includes some really good players that may not be MLB HOF players as well as the Cards MLB HOF players. You may find that interesting and enjoyable as well
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Some explanations on home run increases during the season and decreases during the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28273986/uptick-home-runs-attributed-seam-heights-batting-techniques-not-juiced-balls
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Some explanations on home run increases during the season and decreases during the playoffs.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28273986/uptick-home-runs-attributed-seam-heights-batting-techniques-not-juiced-balls
Seam height - or lack thereof - is part of the juicing of the ball.
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MU Alum Ritchie Donnelly did a report on that earlier this year too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvJmEVK4r0U&app=desktop
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something to track: rumblings that Kris Bryant may be on his way out of Chicago
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something to track: rumblings that Kris Bryant may be on his way out of Chicago
That's been on track for a few years now, not much of a surprise if/when it happens. They know he's not re-signing there.
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That's been on track for a few years now, not much of a surprise if/when it happens. They know he's not re-signing there.
F-ing with his sevice years guaranteed that. Shirt sighted by the chubs.
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F-ing with his sevice years guaranteed that. Shirt sighted by the chubs.
Kris wants 7-8 WAR money when he’s a 4-5 WAR guy is the biggest issue.
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The baseball seam height difference is 5/1000th of an inch per Dr Hosoi, about the thickness of a human hair.
Within the tolerances of the Manufacturing specs of the baseball? That’s the key.
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Kris wants 7-8 WAR money when he’s a 4-5 WAR guy is the biggest issue.
Not even that. Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.
Thats not to pardon the Cubs though. They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty. I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life. His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent. Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.
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Not even that. Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.
Thats not to pardon the Cubs though. They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty. I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life. His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent. Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.
Has the 'heart and soul' of this franchise really been that good of thing? It's a team that has vastly under performed and straight up stunk in crucial situations.
What are you giving Rizzo then?
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Not even that. Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.
Thats not to pardon the Cubs though. They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty. I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life. His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent. Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.
Rizzo is locked up through 2021, after which he'll be 32 years old and almost certainly be a player in decline ... if he isn't already. Extending him now may be popular in the clubhouse and in the stands but - barring some kind of hometown discount - probably isn't a smart baseball move.
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Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.
Lock up Addison, too ... oh wait ... that's a whole 'nother subject.
Rizzo is locked up through 2021, after which he'll be 32 years old and almost certainly be a player in decline ... if he isn't already. Extending him now may be popular in the clubhouse and in the stands but - barring some kind of hometown discount - probably isn't a smart baseball move.
Agree on this. Maybe Rizzo is willing to give that huge discount, though. Have figures been thrown around yet?
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Has the 'heart and soul' of this franchise really been that good of thing? It's a team that has vastly under performed and straight up stunk in crucial situations.
Since the start of the 2015 season, the Cubs have played a total of 5 games while out of playoff contention, while winning a World Series and playing in 3 NLCS. I can think of a few crucial situations when the team (including its "heart and soul") did not straight up stink.
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Since the start of the 2015 season, the Cubs have played a total of 5 games while out of playoff contention, while winning a World Series and playing in 3 NLCS. I can think of a few crucial situations when the team (including its "heart and soul") did not straight up stink.
Exactly. I don't think any Cubs fan was happy about the ending of 2018 and the home stretch of 2019, but this has been a really good team for the last 5 years. Would have been nice to have another WS in that stretch, but its really hard to win multiple in a short window.
Agree on this. Maybe Rizzo is willing to give that huge discount, though. Have figures been thrown around yet?
Not that Ive seen. His current deal is $16.5 a year. Hosmer isn't a terrible comp and he got 8/144 recently. Goldschmidt is 5/130. So you could probably see Rizzo at like $20 a year in the open market. Could potentially get the hometown discount and maybe do like 5/90?
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Decade is over. WAR leader for each position. Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.
https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html
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Decade is over. WAR leader for each position. Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.
https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html
Pity he wasn't on a better team or he'd be the best player of this generation
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Decade is over. WAR leader for each position. Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.
https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html
Wow. Guess that Trout guy is pretty good. Who knew?