MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on October 12, 2019, 10:00:56 AM
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Yes, it isn't official because it wasn't open racing. Still a monumental achievement.
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A true 42 man effort 8-)
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Given the Bannister effect, I'd wager we have at least 2 more people break the 2hr mark within 18 months
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Given that this event was designed to give the runner the most favorable conditions possible, I am actually surprised he only shaved a measly two minutes off of his time.
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In my opinion, world-class marathoners are accomplishing one of the most mind-boggling athletic feats. When I realized that they average speeds roughly the equivalent of the top speed of most powered treadmills, it blew my mind.
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In my opinion, world-class marathoners are accomplishing one of the most mind-boggling athletic feats. When I realized that they average speeds roughly the equivalent of the top speed of most powered treadmills, it blew my mind.
My friend (a fellow runner) and I had this conversation over the summer. We both place well in road races around Connecticut and our 7 minute or so per mile for 3 miles is nothing compared to guys running 4:30 minute miles for 26.2 miles. Mind blowing.
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I thought I read that the course was specifically picked for speed. The feat is impressive but wouldn't it be the technical equivalent of too much tailwind?
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One of the reasons it is not official.
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I thought I read that the course was specifically picked for speed. The feat is impressive but wouldn't it be the technical equivalent of too much tailwind?
Not only that, but often the pacers surrounded him, screening him from wind.
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Not only that, but often the pacers surrounded him, screening him from wind.
Wouldn't you only want to be screened from a headwind? If you're in front of him to screen him from the wind, why not just beat him?
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The pacers don't run the entire race with him.
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The pacers don't run the entire race with him.
Got it. I thought someone I talked to about it (who is more knowledgeable about distance running than I am) said that there were other guys behind him who also finished in under 2 hours.
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The pacers don't run the entire race with him.
Where did you see that? All reports I see say otherwise. Here is a photo and depiction of the pacers forming a V in front of him to shield him from aerodynamic drag. Says they had teams rotating in for the duration of the run.
https://qz.com/1727150/breaking-marathon-barrier-required-43-world-class-runners/
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Where did you see that? All reports I see say otherwise. Here is a photo and depiction of the pacers forming a V in front of him to shield him from aerodynamic drag. Says they had teams rotating in for the duration of the run.
https://qz.com/1727150/breaking-marathon-barrier-required-43-world-class-runners/
If they were rotating teams fluffy is right, the teams don't run the entire race (with him) after they were rotated.
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So, why would this be considered a world record?
If a runner sets a record in the 100 meters, it doesn’t count if it is wind aided. Why wouldn’t the same apply here?
I believe the term is “gaming the system”.
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Where did you see that? All reports I see say otherwise. Here is a photo and depiction of the pacers forming a V in front of him to shield him from aerodynamic drag. Says they had teams rotating in for the duration of the run.
https://qz.com/1727150/breaking-marathon-barrier-required-43-world-class-runners/
Apparently, it was pretty high tech. From the article Forgetful linked: "The pacers worked in teams, rotating in twice during each of the course’s 9.6-km (6-mile) laps. An electric car preceded the runners, projecting a system of lasers to show where the pacers should run."
Presumably that means they adjusted the pacers' location based upon where the wind was coming from. I suspect that at the speeds they were running, you'd always want some ahead of him for drafting purposes, but also make sure he was protected from cross winds and benefited from tail winds.
I also don't recall ever knowing that Bannister used a couple pacers when he broke the four minute barrier. It's probably common knowledge...but I didn't know.
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So, why would this be considered a world record?
If a runner sets a record in the 100 meters, it doesn’t count if it is wind aided. Why wouldn’t the same apply here?
I believe the term is “gaming the system”.
It's not.
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Where did you see that? All reports I see say otherwise. Here is a photo and depiction of the pacers forming a V in front of him to shield him from aerodynamic drag. Says they had teams rotating in for the duration of the run.
https://qz.com/1727150/breaking-marathon-barrier-required-43-world-class-runners/
That is what I meant and just didn't say it well - that different pacers were rotating in.
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I also don't recall ever knowing that Bannister used a couple pacers when he broke the four minute barrier. It's probably common knowledge...but I didn't know.
From what I recall, he used pacers to help train for the race. Not during the race itself.
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From what I recall, he used pacers to help train for the race. Not during the race itself.
According to Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bannister) (I know, I know...but it's the easiest) he did use his pacesetters when he broke the barrier. I suppose the key distinction is that they were actually running the race. It wasn't nearly as artificial of an environment than what was created for this marathon. But Bannister did have two pacers who apparently ran with him regularly trying to help him go sub 4:00.
From wiki: "Being a dual-meet format, there were seven men entered in the mile: Alan Gordon, George Dole and Nigel Miller from Oxford University; and four British AAA runners: Bannister, his two pacemakers Brasher and Chataway, and Tom Hulatt. Nigel Miller arrived as a spectator and he only realised that he was due to run when he read the programme. Efforts to borrow a running kit failed and he could not take part, thus reducing the field to six. The race went off as scheduled at 6:00 pm, and Brasher and Bannister went immediately to the front of the pack. Brasher (wearing No. 44) led both the first lap in 58 seconds and the half-mile in 1:58, with Bannister (No. 41) tucked in behind, and Chataway (No. 42) a stride behind Bannister. Chataway moved to the front after the second lap and maintained the pace with a 3:01 split at the final lap bell. Chataway continued to lead around the front turn until Bannister began his finishing kick with about 275 yards to go (just over half a lap), running the last lap in just under 59 seconds."
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When Bannister broke the 4 min mile, he had paces and several technical innovations including new cleats and a new type of track material. This isn't official but a 2 hr marathon will fall in an official capacity at some point
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According to Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bannister) (I know, I know...but it's the easiest) he did use his pacesetters when he broke the barrier. I suppose the key distinction is that they were actually running the race. It wasn't nearly as artificial of an environment than what was created for this marathon. But Bannister did have two pacers who apparently ran with him regularly trying to help him go sub 4:00.
From wiki: "Being a dual-meet format, there were seven men entered in the mile: Alan Gordon, George Dole and Nigel Miller from Oxford University; and four British AAA runners: Bannister, his two pacemakers Brasher and Chataway, and Tom Hulatt. Nigel Miller arrived as a spectator and he only realised that he was due to run when he read the programme. Efforts to borrow a running kit failed and he could not take part, thus reducing the field to six. The race went off as scheduled at 6:00 pm, and Brasher and Bannister went immediately to the front of the pack. Brasher (wearing No. 44) led both the first lap in 58 seconds and the half-mile in 1:58, with Bannister (No. 41) tucked in behind, and Chataway (No. 42) a stride behind Bannister. Chataway moved to the front after the second lap and maintained the pace with a 3:01 split at the final lap bell. Chataway continued to lead around the front turn until Bannister began his finishing kick with about 275 yards to go (just over half a lap), running the last lap in just under 59 seconds."
Ah gotcha. Thanks.
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Is a pacer like a fluffer?
(Guess we know what Da Pontiff is doing when he's not on scoop, eh?)
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It's not.
I knew that. I was asking, hypothetically, but maybe the answer is still the same that you gave.
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My friend (a fellow runner) and I had this conversation over the summer. We both place well in road races around Connecticut and our 7 minute or so per mile for 3 miles is nothing compared to guys running 4:30 minute miles for 26.2 miles. Mind blowing.
Agreed. In my late 20s and early 30s, I ran several marathons and was much faster than the average Joe. I usually kept about a 7:10-7:15 per mile pace (PR 3:07;43), so I was competitive enough to usually finish in the top 15-25% of my age class.
At the time, I decided to see how long I could keep up a 5:00 per mile pace on a track. I did the quarter mile under 75 seconds several times, but I could never keep the pace for a full half mile. It's just unfathomable to imagine someone going even faster for 26.2 miles.
It makes perfect sense that this staged, aided marathon isn't considered a record. Still, it is a ridiculously amazing feat.
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The response to this has been pretty absurd IMO. From what I’ve seen, those in the professional running community/distance fans have been like “this is super cool, what a beast”. While the people who completed their 1 Chicago Marathon in 4:45 or killjoy nerds like Rovell have poo poo-d the accomplishment and breathlessly cataloged his advantages. Nobody has tried to claim it as a WR and clearly it wasn’t an official race, but jeez. If Usain Bolt ran a wind aided 9.35 100M, they would be like “NOT LEGIT” instead of “my god that’s foolishly fast”
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At the time, I decided to see how long I could keep up a 5:00 per mile pace on a track. I did the quarter mile under 75 seconds several times, but I could never keep the pace for a full half mile. It's just unfathomable to imagine someone going even faster for 26.2 miles.
I'm not a runner. Never have been. Even when I was in shape, I simply sucked at running. If I put a treadmill at it's fastest speed, I'm either going to fall down or zip off the back pretty much immediately. And these guys are going faster than that for two hours. It's honestly hard for me to believe that's even possible.
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Their is a similar argument in women’s marathons.
Last week in Chicago Brigid Kosgei set the women’s world record at 2:14.04. But Chicago was a mixed race so she had men pace her literally to the finish line.
Next month is the New York City marathon. In that race the elite women start before the elite men (about 30 minutes before). This way they have no men pacers.
Some argue that races with men’s pacers like Chicago should not count for the official world record. For now, it does.