MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: muguru on August 23, 2019, 12:44:03 PM
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https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-which-school-is-the-most-underrated-job-in-college-basketball/
On Marquette
"The Marquette job, the resources are out of this world and they want to be really good. The facilities are getting even better and the brand new arena helps too. If you have even close to being good the support shows up too."
"Loyal, passionate fan base. Great tradition. No football. Pro city and they invest big time in hoops."
"Huge budget, passionate fans, NBA facility, history of pros, recruiting base but can recruit nationally."
I have said it before, this job...when open CAN/WOULD/HAS drawn better names then a lot of people think.
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Yes. A whopping 4% of the respondants picked Marquette.
But again, during the last coaching search, all of the same conditions existed. And the only sitting high major coach to seemingly express any interest has since left two jobs and is barely above .500 at his third. And other fired one with head coaching experience has been to one NCAA tournament at the school that eventually hired him.
Look, I don't care if you want to get rid of Wojo, but if you think there are going to be a list of high major coaches interested in Marquette, you are going to be incredibly disapointed. Like before, it will very likely either be a major D1 assistant or a mid-major head coach.
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Yes. A whopping 4% of the respondants picked Marquette.
But again, during the last coaching search, all of the same conditions existed. And the only sitting high major coach to seemingly express any interest has since left two jobs and is barely above .500 at his third. And other fired one with head coaching experience has been to one NCAA tournament at the school that eventually hired him.
Look, I don't care if you want to get rid of Wojo, but if you think there are going to be a list of high major coaches interested in Marquette, you are going to be incredibly disapointed. Like before, it will very likely either be a major D1 assistant or a mid-major head coach.
I might add here that Coach K was quoted as saying many of those same positives about MU at the time. More so, MU was a mess. No President. No AD. A new conference. A new TV deal with new networks. Even donor dissent. I think the many positives outdrew the significant negatives in luring Wojo and others to apply, which says a lot about the job.
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I have said it before, this job...when open CAN/WOULD/HAS drawn better names then a lot of people think.
Marquette HAS drawn better names then(than) a lot of people think??
What the hell does this even mean?
Regarding the CAN and WOULD...see Sultan’s response.
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"CBS Sports college basketball writers Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander surveyed more than 100 coaches for our annual Candid Coaches series."
IMO, "more than 100" likely mean between 100 and 150. That means at most 6 coaches think that MU is underrated. Not that they would necessarily leave their own job for it, but that it is likely better than the national perception. Given that a significant percentage of the people that make up the "national perception" don't even know where MU, and thus wouldn't know it's in an NBA city, or it's reputation at putting players in the NBA, this does not surprise me. My take away from this is that MU is not as well known as some of the BB or Big State Schools, to which my response it - "duh".
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Look, I don't care if you want to get rid of Wojo, but if you think there are going to be a list of high major coaches interested in Marquette, you are going to be incredibly disapointed. Like before, it will very likely either be a major D1 assistant or a mid-major head coach.
I agree with you. There are but about 10 jobs a major program coach would leave for (barring a unique situation like Buzz being 'encourage' to look elsewhere). Even schools like Arizona and Texas looked to mid-major conferences for their current coaches. Marquette is no better or worse than schools like NC State, Illinois, Baylor, Stanford, etc. when it comes to getting a new coach.
That said, MU is a very attractive job and will have lots of great candidates when the day comes to replace Wojo.
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Yes. A whopping 4% of the respondants picked Marquette.
But again, during the last coaching search, all of the same conditions existed. And the only sitting high major coach to seemingly express any interest has since left two jobs and is barely above .500 at his third. And other fired one with head coaching experience has been to one NCAA tournament at the school that eventually hired him.
Look, I don't care if you want to get rid of Wojo, but if you think there are going to be a list of high major coaches interested in Marquette, you are going to be incredibly disapointed. Like before, it will very likely either be a major D1 assistant or a mid-major head coach.
There were a ton of question marks surrounding Marquette that will not be there during the next coaching carousel
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I agree with you. There are but about 10 jobs a major program coach would leave for (barring a unique situation like Buzz being 'encourage' to look elsewhere). Even schools like Arizona and Texas looked to mid-major conferences for their current coaches. Marquette is no better or worse than schools like NC State, Illinois, Baylor, Stanford, etc. when it comes to getting a new coach.
That said, MU is a very attractive job and will have lots of great candidates when the day comes to replace Wojo.
Oh yeah. I agree with this completely. Just look at the high major hires the last few years. You have high profile programs the likes of UCLA and Louisville hiring solid coaches from other programs, or you have A&M hiring Buzz with geographic connections. But outside of that, it is pretty rare.
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Yes. A whopping 4% of the respondants picked Marquette.
But again, during the last coaching search, all of the same conditions existed. And the only sitting high major coach to seemingly express any interest has since left two jobs and is barely above .500 at his third. And other fired one with head coaching experience has been to one NCAA tournament at the school that eventually hired him.
Look, I don't care if you want to get rid of Wojo, but if you think there are going to be a list of high major coaches interested in Marquette, you are going to be incredibly disapointed. Like before, it will very likely either be a major D1 assistant or a mid-major head coach.
There were 11 choices, highest ℅ was 7℅ and only a few achieved higher than MU's 4℅ in the poll.
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There were a ton of question marks surrounding Marquette that will not be there during the next coaching carousel
Take a look at the coaches in the top seven conferences (B12, BE, B10, P12, ACC, American and SEC.) Which successful coaches do you think would leave their current jobs for Marquette?
I have coaches who MAY want to move "home" in Oats or Weber. And I have a couple moderately successful ones who may want to leave before the axe falls - like Brad Brownell. (Which means I'm really stretching the definition of successful.) But if you go down to the next level, the high mid-majors, I see a few who might fit that bill. Mike Rhodes at VCU for instance.
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"CBS Sports college basketball writers Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander surveyed more than 100 coaches for our annual Candid Coaches series."
IMO, "more than 100" likely mean between 100 and 150. That means at most 6 coaches think that MU is underrated. Not that they would necessarily leave their own job for it, but that it is likely better than the national perception. Given that a significant percentage of the people that make up the "national perception" don't even know where MU, and thus wouldn't know it's in an NBA city, or it's reputation at putting players in the NBA, this does not surprise me. My take away from this is that MU is not as well known as some of the BB or Big State Schools, to which my response it - "duh".
I think you misunderstand the poll. 4% think MU is THE MOST underrated; it is possible that more think that is somewhat or even very underrated, but not THE MOST underrated. The schools getting the most votes only have 6 or 7% of the vote. Kind of a silly way to do a poll, IMO.
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Take a look at the coaches in the top seven conferences (B12, BE, B10, P12, ACC, American and SEC.) Which successful coaches do you think would leave their current jobs for Marquette?
I have coaches who MAY want to move "home" in Oats or Weber. And I have a couple moderately successful ones who may want to leave before the axe falls - like Brad Brownell. (Which means I'm really stretching the definition of successful.) But if you go down to the next level, the high mid-majors, I see a few who might fit that bill. Mike Rhodes at VCU for instance.
Tom Crean
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I think you misunderstand the poll. 4% think MU is THE MOST underrated; it is possible that more think that is somewhat or even very underrated, but not THE MOST underrated. The schools getting the most votes only have 6 or 7% of the vote. Kind of a silly way to do a poll, IMO.
Ah, I see. I did misinterpret that. I still think that it both a weird way to format a poll, and a weird poll. Not a ton of new information was gained from it.
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Ah, I see. I did misinterpret that. I still think that it both a weird way to format a poll, and a weird poll. Not a ton of new information was gained from it.
Agreed
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There were a ton of question marks surrounding Marquette that will not be there during the next coaching carousel
If you can see the future why are you being wasteful and spending time on Scoop?
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'"The Marquette job, the resources are out of this world and they want to be really good."
What? Clearly this coach wasn't invited to the Meat Lovers Summit. The administration doesn't care one bit whether Marquette is good. Just be an elite school. Duh.
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Matt Norlander puts out quality research. He also has an open mind to MU and The Big East. So I rate him as a quality observer of College Basketball.
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Echos much of what I said the other day. As usual I'm years ahead of Wojo and most of the rest of the board.
Glad we have Herman who can match my insights and intellect. 8-) :)
Recruiting would be a lot easier if Wojo could promote his great coaching track record of Sweet 16 appearances like Buzz could. Of course he can't do that as he's been below average thus far and was borderline horrendous in his first two years. However in spite of this he was able to land Marcus Howard before the start of his third season and has recruited well since then (due in no small part to Stan Johnson of course).
However all these kids above have scheduled official visits which is key in getting MU more than a fighting chance. I'll argue that the Fiserv Forum will be the greatest closer Marquette has in this recruiting cycle. Having access to the Fiserv, as one of the anchor tenants, to show recruits and their families at anytime is huge! During the recruiting tour we get to show recruits and their families our own/permanent Blue and Gold draped/decorated locker and training room. I'm sure they also play some videos on the scoreboard as well to give the full visual sales effect to simulate what the game atmosphere is like and to further widen eyes of recruits. This is further backed up by a top 10 in gross attendance for the 2018-2019 season with at least four sellouts in this last season.
Add this to the Al McGuire Center, the amount of staff support MU has (with Barb Kellaher and her daughter doing a great job), the commitment to academics/graduation with numbers to back it up, the convenience of everything where campus is a 15 to 20 minute walk to the Fiserv, Mitchell Airport being a short bus ride for away game travel, away game travel always on private/chartered planes that come back after the night of away games to minimize lost class time. Further add this to our strong history of sending players to the NBA, our contract with Fox Sports 1, adding UConn to the Big East, etc., etc.
All of the above is expensive but since we make $25MM in annual revenues we in turn spend more money on our men's basketball program than every Div 1 basketball program except Duke. It's also no surprise that other schools like St. Thomas are looking at Marquette and saying we want in on the "party".
Marquette is an enigma in that we are private/Jesuit school with 10,000 students yet run circles around Power 5 schools who can't compete with all our above spelled-out advantages. The above is no secret to coaches either who overtly gush about Marquette when our head coaching vacancy is available like Ben Howland did before we opted for Wojo.
So as long as we can get kids on campus we'll never be out of it. Finally if Wojo can't cut it then we'll have a long line of good coaches lined up outside on Wisconsin Avenue to choose from.
https://youtu.be/5yUH7_cBpwc
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Matt Norlander thinks the MU job is highly underrated. I agree, but I am biased.
Coaches - who generally know quite a bit about hoops and whose primary biases are to win and get money - don't seem to agree.
As much as I'd love to be wrong, I'm inclined to conclude that we are overrating the job.
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Take a look at the coaches in the top seven conferences (B12, BE, B10, P12, ACC, American and SEC.) Which successful coaches do you think would leave their current jobs for Marquette?
I have coaches who MAY want to move "home" in Oats or Weber. And I have a couple moderately successful ones who may want to leave before the axe falls - like Brad Brownell. (Which means I'm really stretching the definition of successful.) But if you go down to the next level, the high mid-majors, I see a few who might fit that bill. Mike Rhodes at VCU for instance.
I'm curious to see how Darrin Horn fares at NKU. He has an MU connection (not that it matters), good pedigree as an assistant, and experience and success as a head coach at the mid-major level. He didn't fare too well as a head coach at the high-major level but I wonder how he would do if he got another bite at the apple.
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Matt Norlander thinks the MU job is highly underrated. I agree, but I am biased.
Coaches - who generally know quite a bit about hoops and whose primary biases are to win and get money - don't seem to agree.
As much as I'd love to be wrong, I'm inclined to conclude that we are overrating the job.
You do understand this isn't Norlander's opinion, right?? These are coaches he asked directly. It was the Coaches that rated MU as like the third(tied) most underrated job in the country.
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Echos much of what I said the other day. As usual I'm years ahead of Wojo and most of the rest of the board.
Glad we have Herman who can match my insights and intellect. 8-) :)
Recruiting would be a lot easier if Wojo could promote his great coaching track record of Sweet 16 appearances like Buzz could. Of course he can't do that as he's been below average thus far and was borderline horrendous in his first two years. However in spite of this he was able to land Marcus Howard before the start of his third season and has recruited well since then (due in no small part to Stan Johnson of course).
However all these kids above have scheduled official visits which is key in getting MU more than a fighting chance. I'll argue that the Fiserv Forum will be the greatest closer Marquette has in this recruiting cycle. Having access to the Fiserv, as one of the anchor tenants, to show recruits and their families at anytime is huge! During the recruiting tour we get to show recruits and their families our own/permanent Blue and Gold draped/decorated locker and training room. I'm sure they also play some videos on the scoreboard as well to give the full visual sales effect to simulate what the game atmosphere is like and to further widen eyes of recruits. This is further backed up by a top 10 in gross attendance for the 2018-2019 season with at least four sellouts in this last season.
Add this to the Al McGuire Center, the amount of staff support MU has (with Barb Kellaher and her daughter doing a great job), the commitment to academics/graduation with numbers to back it up, the convenience of everything where campus is a 15 to 20 minute walk to the Fiserv, Mitchell Airport being a short bus ride for away game travel, away game travel always on private/chartered planes that come back after the night of away games to minimize lost class time. Further add this to our strong history of sending players to the NBA, our contract with Fox Sports 1, adding UConn to the Big East, etc., etc.
All of the above is expensive but since we make $25MM in annual revenues we in turn spend more money on our men's basketball program than every Div 1 basketball program except Duke. It's also no surprise that other schools like St. Thomas are looking at Marquette and saying we want in on the "party".
Marquette is an enigma in that we are private/Jesuit school with 10,000 students yet run circles around Power 5 schools who can't compete with all our above spelled-out advantages. The above is no secret to coaches either who overtly gush about Marquette when our head coaching vacancy is available like Ben Howland did before we opted for Wojo.
So as long as we can get kids on campus we'll never be out of it. Finally if Wojo can't cut it then we'll have a long line of good coaches lined up outside on Wisconsin Avenue to choose from.
https://youtu.be/5yUH7_cBpwc
When Buzz was promoting his Sweet 16 appearances why did it lead to a 6th place finish and not even a bid to the NIT?
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You do understand this isn't Norlander's opinion, right?? These are coaches he asked directly. It was the Coaches that rated MU as like the third(tied) most underrated job in the country.
Third? You may want to do that again.
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When Buzz was promoting his Sweet 16 appearances why did it lead to a 6th place finish and not even a bid to the NIT?
Ask your buddy Larry Williams...
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You sarcastically knock Wojo for lack of sweet 16 while not mentioning that fact he has been here and two sets of guys have left here before they were ready who should have been here all 4 years....
Especially Ellenson and the Hausers. I think he has done a fantastic job...and it take 4-7 years to establish your own program.
Cheatham had to leave to take care of his mother was it and be close to home, and Sandy Cohen couldn't work it out.
A player returning here or there would have done it...or a better run with injuries is where the lack of luck comes in and bad breaks, not bad coaching.
Had Henry stayed two more years like he needed you would have your sweet 16's...
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Dude no one thought Henry was going to stay here more than a year.
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I agree with you. There are but about 10 jobs a major program coach would leave for (barring a unique situation like Buzz being 'encourage' to look elsewhere). Even schools like Arizona and Texas looked to mid-major conferences for their current coaches. Marquette is no better or worse than schools like NC State, Illinois, Baylor, Stanford, etc. when it comes to getting a new coach.
That said, MU is a very attractive job and will have lots of great candidates when the day comes to replace Wojo.
Excellent post.
Howland was a retread with significant baggage who was desperate for any job, which is why he ended up at Mississippi State. Martin wanted to use us as a short-term stepping stone.
And those were the BEST P5-experience coaches who were interested in the job.
I wish that weren't true. I wish that every time we have an opening, there will always be several incredible, proven, annual-Sweet-16-participating coaches lined up to leave their Sweet 16-capable programs to come lead Marquette to the promised land.
But not a single one of us has seen evidence of that being the case.
Not even guru, who claims to know of a secret list of super-successful, NCAA-tourney-proven, P5 mystery coaches who are yearning to be Warriors.
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Ask your buddy Larry Williams...
I don’t need to, looks like Buzz unnatural carnal knowledgeing quit on his team, never reimbursed the university for stealing the money. Or, is the answer with the restrictions put on Buzz he couldn’t achieve and do anything, but somehow Wojo has made it to three post season tournaments with those restrictions and Buzz had zero. No wonder he went to pastures that allow a bit more...shall we say...flexibility.
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Dude no one thought Henry was going to stay here more than a year.
With that pathetic draft year, it would have been criminal not to leave.
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I don’t need to, looks like Buzz unnatural carnal knowledgeing quit on his team, never reimbursed the university for stealing the money. Or, is the answer with the restrictions put on Buzz he couldn’t achieve and do anything, but somehow Wojo has made it to three post season tournaments with those restrictions and Buzz had zero. No wonder he went to pastures that allow a bit more...shall we say...flexibility.
You may want to edit your post or call your lawyer.
As to your emotional answer to my statement, I answered the question without judgment. Either directly or indirectly/partly, the new academic standards impacted that team (as did Buzz’s behavior and actions). TJ Taylor, Todd Mayo, Vander Blue, Jameel McKay (who Buzz wanted to redshirt so he could show advancement towards his degree which is one reason for their dust up). In addition, all this was late so Buzz worked to get Jake and Juan to retract their transfers and he got Otule to stay for Year 6. Oh, and let’s not forget Duane’s season long injury. These players were all admitted, not by Buzz, but by MU Admissions and I presume the NCAA Clearinghouse...and it greatly impacted the make-up of that team, right or wrong.
In addition, recruits like Sam Cassell Jr. (ND Prep like Lazar, Damian Saunders, Mayo) and Charles Matthews academics were questionable under the new standards. Yes, Buzz wanted to get out of dodge but he wanted to make the tournament badly with that pieced together line up to say eff you with an emphasis on the way out. And he almost did but for those four OT losses.
Again, we can argue pro and con forever (and you will)...but I am glad the lot of them are all gone. As to your embezzlement charge, I am not aware nor can I support that contention. Maybe the answer is in your other shoe?
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https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/candid-coaches-which-school-is-the-most-underrated-job-in-college-basketball/
On Marquette
"The Marquette job, the resources are out of this world and they want to be really good. The facilities are getting even better and the brand new arena helps too. If you have even close to being good the support shows up too."
"Loyal, passionate fan base. Great tradition. No football. Pro city and they invest big time in hoops."
"Huge budget, passionate fans, NBA facility, history of pros, recruiting base but can recruit nationally."
I have said it before, this job...when open CAN/WOULD/HAS drawn better names then a lot of people think.
I must say that when I saw this quote on Gonzaga, I thought of you, guru:
"But another reason why Gonzaga got the most votes? The campus, community and attitude in Spokane, Washington, is viewed as a near-perfect blend of expectations and pragmatism. Few might have the best work/life balance of any head coach in the sport"
Blending expectations with pragmatism?
Work/Life balance for the head coach?
How can they possibly win?
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Look, any coaching job is good as long as you win. Period.
You build it, you harvest it and your team shows consistent, high-end performance in the NCAA tournament and you'll be at a great coaching job. Heck, if Tom Crean can start winning consistently, even a backwater basketball school like Georgia can be a blueblood.
If location mattered, UCLA would have won every NCAA Championship since the Wooden era. The Final Four likely would be UCLA, Miami, Florida and maybe St. John's (assuming NYC matters to kids). Villanova in Philadelphia? Who would want to go there? Ditto for Notre Dame in South Bend.
What the people who were pointing us out said, was in effect, get your act together, perform at a high level and there won't be many universities that have a better job. You'll have all the money, all the support and all the amenities you need -- and then some!
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Look, any coaching job is good as long as you win. Period.
You build it, you harvest it and your team shows consistent, high-end performance in the NCAA tournament and you'll be at a great coaching job. Heck, if Tom Crean can start winning consistently, even a backwater basketball school like Georgia can be a blueblood.
If location mattered, UCLA would have won every NCAA Championship since the Wooden era. The Final Four likely would be UCLA, Miami, Florida and maybe St. John's (assuming NYC matters to kids). Villanova in Philadelphia? Who would want to go there? Ditto for Notre Dame in South Bend.
What the people who were pointing us out said, was in effect, get your act together, perform at a high level and there won't be many universities that have a better job. You'll have all the money, all the support and all the amenities you need -- and then some!
And we got chili too.
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There is something wrong when we are lumped in with Dayton, or that we are even included in this conversation.
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You may want to edit your post or call your lawyer.
As to your emotional answer to my statement, I answered the question without judgment. Either directly or indirectly/partly, the new academic standards impacted that team (as did Buzz’s behavior and actions). TJ Taylor, Todd Mayo, Vander Blue, Jameel McKay (who Buzz wanted to redshirt so he could show advancement towards his degree which is one reason for their dust up). In addition, all this was late so Buzz worked to get Jake and Juan to retract their transfers and he got Otule to stay for Year 6. Oh, and let’s not forget Duane’s season long injury. These players were all admitted, not by Buzz, but by MU Admissions and I presume the NCAA Clearinghouse...and it greatly impacted the make-up of that team, right or wrong.
In addition, recruits like Sam Cassell Jr. (ND Prep like Lazar, Damian Saunders, Mayo) and Charles Matthews academics were questionable under the new standards. Yes, Buzz wanted to get out of dodge but he wanted to make the tournament badly with that pieced together line up to say eff you with an emphasis on the way out. And he almost did but for those four OT losses.
Again, we can argue pro and con forever (and you will)...but I am glad the lot of them are all gone. As to your embezzlement charge, I am not aware nor can I support that contention. Maybe the answer is in your other shoe?
Call my lawyer? Why? Embezzlement charge....no, more like mailing it in and getting paid for the effort. I remember Steve Alford having the decency of refusing some contractual money (giving back a one year extension)....Buzz looked like he was on cruise control that year.
The 4 OT losses....how about the five double digit losses, zero good wins. We were a team that struggled to beat Southern and New Hampshire at home, took OT to beat a horrific DePaul team.
McKey he should have been forthright from the start on his position and redshirt, which the kid would have said no and we move on to a different scenario. It’s funny how many people take shots at Wojo the GM, well wasn’t Buzz the GM of that team?
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It’s funny how many people take shots at Wojo the GM, well wasn’t Buzz the GM of that team?
GM? In this case and it was true back then, Mike Broeker is the GM of MUBB. Wojo (nor Buzz) is not the GM of Marquette basketball. Weird take by a professional. Maybe Al and Hank shared both titles.
This thread was/is about the MU coaching position. Perhaps one person took a veiled shot at Wojo. Buzz was mentioned because despite the shyt show back then, the job had many interested qualified candidates.
Yet, here you are with another triggered and off topic Buzz/Wojo rant (on his one missed post-season...which MU declined to pursue a NIT bid, btw) because we don’t have enough of those. The reality, those in charge at the time (read “all”) were responsible for that year’s (and a few more) shytshow, not just in MUBB, but the AD and the entire university. And you talk about Buzz taking his salary that year...what about all the money MU paid to get rid of all those characters? Yet, the MUBB job was still somehow attractive.
Oh, good luck with your libel case.
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You sarcastically knock Wojo for lack of sweet 16 while not mentioning that fact he has been here and two sets of guys have left here before they were ready who should have been here all 4 years....
Especially Ellenson and the Hausers. I think he has done a fantastic job...and it take 4-7 years to establish your own program.
Cheatham had to leave to take care of his mother was it and be close to home, and Sandy Cohen couldn't work it out.
A player returning here or there would have done it...or a better run with injuries is where the lack of luck comes in and bad breaks, not bad coaching.
Had Henry stayed two more years like he needed you would have your sweet 16's...
Henry was going pro after year 1. Everyone knew that
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Call my lawyer? Why? Embezzlement charge....no, more like mailing it in and getting paid for the effort. I remember Steve Alford having the decency of refusing some contractual money (giving back a one tear extension)....Buzz looked like he was on cruise control that year.
The 4 OT losses....how about the five double digit losses, zero good wins. We were a team that struggled to beat Southern and New Hampshire at home, took OT to beat a horrific DePaul team.
McKey he should have been forthright from the start on his position and redshirt, which the kid would have said no and we move on to a different scenario. It’s funny how many people take shots at Wojo the GM, well wasn’t Buzz the GM of that team?
Every coach has a bad year. The problem is the continued bad years with the same problems and excuses.
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You sarcastically knock Wojo for lack of sweet 16 while not mentioning that fact he has been here and two sets of guys have left here before they were ready who should have been here all 4 years....
Especially Ellenson and the Hausers. I think he has done a fantastic job...and it take 4-7 years to establish your own program.
Cheatham had to leave to take care of his mother was it and be close to home, and Sandy Cohen couldn't work it out.
A player returning here or there would have done it...or a better run with injuries is where the lack of luck comes in and bad breaks, not bad coaching.
Had Henry stayed two more years like he needed you would have your sweet 16's...
Has Wojo ever had all 13 scholarship players ready to play while here at MU for an entire season?
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Excellent post.
Howland was a retread with significant baggage who was desperate for any job, which is why he ended up at Mississippi State. Martin wanted to use us as a short-term stepping stone.
And those were the BEST P5-experience coaches who were interested in the job.
I wish that weren't true. I wish that every time we have an opening, there will always be several incredible, proven, annual-Sweet-16-participating coaches lined up to leave their Sweet 16-capable programs to come lead Marquette to the promised land.
But not a single one of us has seen evidence of that being the case.
Not even guru, who claims to know of a secret list of super-successful, NCAA-tourney-proven, P5 mystery coaches who are yearning to be Warriors.
Martin would have stayed. He was trying to outrun the posse in Knoxville which is why he inexplicably jumped to Cal.
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Has Wojo ever had all 13 scholarship players ready to play while here at MU for an entire season?
Irrelevant. Buzz never had 13 players.
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Irrelevant. Buzz never had 13 players.
And there is an argument to be had that having one open is opportunistic.
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Yes. Makes midseason transfers possible.
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Irrelevant. Buzz never had 13 players.
I thought he was taking a shot at Wojo for not being able to fill the roster in 5+ years.
I hope we're not getting to the point where excuses and complaints about Wojo are blurred. Some of these threads get confusing enough.
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Yet, here you are with another triggered and off topic Buzz/Wojo rant (on his one missed post-season...which MU declined to pursue a NIT bid, btw) because we don’t have enough of those. The reality, those in charge at the time (read “all”) were responsible for that year’s (and a few more) shytshow, not just in MUBB, but the AD and the entire university. And you talk about Buzz taking his salary that year...what about all the money MU paid to get rid of all those characters? Yet, the MUBB job was still somehow attractive.
Oh, good luck with your libel case.
Chico is obsessed and unhinged. And totally dishonest. You'll state facts. He'll tell lies and move the goal posts. Rinse, wash, repeat. Best of luck.
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GM? In this case and it was true back then, Mike Broeker is the GM of MUBB. Wojo (nor Buzz) is not the GM of Marquette basketball. Weird take by a professional. Maybe Al and Hank shared both titles.
This thread was/is about the MU coaching position. Perhaps one person took a veiled shot at Wojo. Buzz was mentioned because despite the shyt show back then, the job had many interested qualified candidates.
Yet, here you are with another triggered and off topic Buzz/Wojo rant (on his one missed post-season...which MU declined to pursue a NIT bid, btw) because we don’t have enough of those. The reality, those in charge at the time (read “all”) were responsible for that year’s (and a few more) shytshow, not just in MUBB, but the AD and the entire university. And you talk about Buzz taking his salary that year...what about all the money MU paid to get rid of all those characters? Yet, the MUBB job was still somehow attractive.
Oh, good luck with your libel case.
MU didn't decline a NIT bid, MU was snubbed by the NIT. We didn't get a bid to decline. http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/nit-snub-leads-to-abrupt-end-of-marquettes-season-b99226497z1-250558831.html/
"When the National Invitation Tournament did not extend the Golden Eagles a bid, they chose not to commit to any other postseason tournament for the first time since the 2000-'01 season."
The only bid we declined were the CBI or any other third rate tournament not named the NIT.
In college sports, the GM is the head coach. Only the coach assembles the roster through recruiting / transfers. The AD, the Deputy AD, the Associate ADs, do not.
I didn't libel anyone, but if one were to take to court on that statement along with millions of statements similar by sports fans criticizing players, coaches, managers, GMs, etc for being overpaid, terrible, lazy bums, or whatever as it pertains to sports....well so be it. Buzz was on auto pilot that year. Terrible job of coaching and there are 100's of posts if not 1000's on this fan site alone by many fans saying the same thing....that will be part of the evidence submitted...your honor. ;)
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Chico is obsessed and unhinged. And totally dishonest. You'll state facts. He'll tell lies and move the goal posts. Rinse, wash, repeat. Best of luck.
Not dishonest at all. His "stated facts" that MU declined a NIT bid, absolutely false and I just provided evidence of it. Your repeated claims of lies blown out of water again. It's ok, you can admit you were wrong. I think the Doctor will, because he's a smart and ethical man.
By the way, the "FACTS" that were stated to counter my "LIES"....here's what Buzz Williams said.....anytime you want to apologize, just let me know.
Said coach Buzz Williams, "We are obviously disappointed not to be participating in the postseason this year. We were excited by the opportunity to continue to compete and improve, but we weren't included in the NIT field."
Yup....those "lies"...those damned lies.
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Martin would have stayed.
You know this how?
He was trying to outrun the posse in Knoxville which is why he inexplicably jumped to Cal.
Mizzou is his fourth job. He has never stayed for more than 3 years at any of them. And yet you "know" that Martin would have stayed at Marquette for a long time? Okey dokey then.
And BTW, Martin's Cal team lost a first-round game as a 4-seed -- a fireable offense around these parts!
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Martin would have stayed. He was trying to outrun the posse in Knoxville which is why he inexplicably jumped to Cal.
Respectfully disagree here. Nothing in his past suggest he stays anywhere. Honestly, I'm surprised he got as far as he did in the interview process from some of the smoke that's out there as he has hopped from place to place.
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MU didn't decline a NIT bid, MU was snubbed by the NIT. We didn't get a bid to decline. http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/nit-snub-leads-to-abrupt-end-of-marquettes-season-b99226497z1-250558831.html/
"When the National Invitation Tournament did not extend the Golden Eagles a bid, they chose not to commit to any other postseason tournament for the first time since the 2000-'01 season."
The only bid we declined were the CBI or any other third rate tournament not named the NIT.
In college sports, the GM is the head coach. Only the coach assembles the roster through recruiting / transfers. The AD, the Deputy AD, the Associate ADs, do not.
I didn't libel anyone, but if one were to take to court on that statement along with millions of statements similar by sports fans criticizing players, coaches, managers, GMs, etc for being overpaid, terrible, lazy bums, or whatever as it pertains to sports....well so be it. Buzz was on auto pilot that year. Terrible job of coaching and there are 100's of posts if not 1000's on this fan site alone by many fans saying the same thing....that will be part of the evidence submitted...your honor. ;)
Marquette made it known they would pass ("declined to pursue". Note that carefully worded quote). Ask your buddy Cords instead of your go to Google.
Cords sent a letter out to donors a week or so before basically saying hang on for the bumpy ride...we'll be okay in the long term. Buzz subsequently locked himself in a room and pursued his next job as MUAD silently applauded.
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You know this how?
Mizzou is his fourth job. He has never stayed for more than 3 years at any of them. And yet you "know" that Martin would have stayed at Marquette for a long time? Okey dokey then.
And BTW, Martin's Cal team lost a first-round game as a 4-seed -- a fireable offense around these parts!
Cal is a crapshow. The department is in ridiculous debt. The football stadium renovations won’t be paid off for another 100 years. And they do have high academic standards for recruiting.That’s why he left. I think he would have stayed at MU with the stability and commitment of the school.
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Cal is a crapshow. The department is in ridiculous debt. The football stadium renovations won’t be paid off for another 100 years. And they do have high academic standards for recruiting.That’s why he left. I think he would have stayed at MU with the stability and commitment of the school.
You forgot that a fault line literally runs down the center of the football stadium and they have JUCOs as student athletes (Aaron Rodgers, C.J. Anderson, et al). A mess.
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You forgot that a fault line literally runs down the center of the football stadium and they have JUCOs as student athletes (Aaron Rodgers, C.J. Anderson, et al). A mess.
Not every kid is at a JUCO because of grades (Rogers and Jimmy Butler are two perfect examples). Cal’s Administration is also hostile towards athletics, especially football and basketball.
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Not every kid is at a JUCO because of grades (Rogers and Jimmy Butler are two perfect examples). Cal’s Administration is also hostile towards athletics, especially football and basketball.
So true! But MU has zero JUCOs as student athletes in ALL sports. Thanks Larry!
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Cal’s Administration is also hostile towards athletics, especially football and basketball.
Sounds like Colorado. The City of Boulder is hostile to CU football.
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So true! But MU has zero JUCOs as student athletes in ALL sports. Thanks Larry!
Nothing wrong with JUCOs, having nearly 40% of your roster....is a problem.
Athletic department won President’s Award in 2017, the only school other than Nova to win in four years. Last year Big East champions in vball, women’s hoops, runner up in men’s hoops, golf ncaa bid, etc. Yes, we are struggling as an athletic dept.
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Marquette made it known they would pass ("declined to pursue". Note that carefully worded quote). Ask your buddy Cords instead of your go to Google.
Cords sent a letter out to donors a week or so before basically saying hang on for the bumpy ride...we'll be okay in the long term. Buzz subsequently locked himself in a room and pursued his next job as MUAD silently applauded.
Wow, just wow. We were not given a bid. So yesterday it was Tyshawn Taylor’s mom was lying, now it is Broecker, Buzz, etc that are lying.
This is getting great
I guess when Buzz said a week earlier we would accept a bid, that was different in the same timing as the AD making it known. So Buzz was making it known he was for it, and the AD was making it known that we weren’t for it. Oh, and if one looks at if we were even worthy of one...in a coincidence no one should be surprised by, we weren’t worthy of a bid.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/03/16/marquettes-8-year-ncaa-run-comes-to-halt/6509573/
:o :o
After losing to Xavier in the Big East tournament....”“I hope that we go to the NIT, and I mean that sincerely,” Williams said. “I’d like us to keep playing.”
Good thing MU let the NIT know we would decline....oh wait. No wonder why Buzz said the night of the snub he was disappointed. So Buzz was lying, MU AD was lying? Maybe some wishful history not remembered so well?
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Nothing wrong with JUCOs, having nearly 40% of your roster....is a problem.
Athletic department won President’s Award in 2017, the only school other than Nova to win in four years. Last year Big East champions in vball, women’s hoops, runner up in men’s hoops, golf ncaa bid, etc. Yes, we are struggling as an athletic dept.
Jamil Lott, Marcus Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Mike Kinsella, Joe Fulce....squirmy
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Jamil Lott, Marcus Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Mike Kinsella, Joe Fulce....squirmy
Those guys all played on the same roster and made up nearly 40% of our roster....was it a pickup game roster of grads and current players? To my memory, the most we ever had was three during that time period but if I am wrong I will happily admit it. JUCOs are fine, but too many is a major challenge with roster management as I have said before.
I noticed you have moved on from your NIT nonsense. Having lunch late next week with someone from MU athletics during that time period that would have to be involved with your construct. To be clear, you are saying despite Buzz saying in media interviews during Big East tournament that he wanted a NIT bid, but MU and the AD behind his back told NIT we didn’t....this born out in a letter to donors that everything would be ok by stating this or it’s how you read it? Then when we are “snubbed” (which is funny because we didn’t deserve a bid to begin with), head coach goes back to media saying how disappointed he is that we had no NIT bid. But that was all part of the master plan to stop streak of post season bids, deny kids a chance to continue to play because MU, despite our head coach on record multiple times in media over a five day span saying he wanted NIT bid, didn’t want a bid. Yet, we still issued statement not only by Buzz but also athletic dept (multiple people) they we were disappointed in not getting it and would not go for CBI. To summarize, MU was lying the whole way to the public and putting their coach out to hang himself essentially, and MU doubled down on this by also releasing an official statement of our disappointment that AD has to buy off on knowing it was 100% not true....is that your version?
Just want to make sure I have this correct above.
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Those guys all played on the same roster and made up nearly 40% of our roster....was it a pickup game roster of grads and current players? To my memory, the most we ever had was three during that time period but if I am wrong I will happily admit it. JUCOs are fine, but too many is a major challenge with roster management as I have said before.
I noticed you have moved on from your NIT nonsense. Having lunch late next week with someone from MU athletics during that time period that would have to be involved with your construct. To be clear, you are saying despite Buzz saying in media interviews during Big East tournament that he wanted a NIT bid, but MU and the AD behind his back told NIT we didn’t....this born out in a letter to donors that everything would be ok by stating this or it’s how you read it? Then when we are “snubbed” (which is funny because we didn’t deserve a bid to begin with), head coach goes back to media saying how disappointed he is that we had no NIT bid. But that was all part of the master plan to stop streak of post season bids, deny kids a chance to continue to play because MU, despite our head coach on record multiple times in media over a five day span saying he wanted NIT bid, didn’t want a bid. Yet, we still issued statement not only by Buzz but also athletic dept (multiple people) they we were disappointed in not getting it and would not go for CBI. To summarize, MU was lying the whole way to the public and putting their coach out to hang himself essentially, and MU doubled down on this by also releasing an official statement of our disappointment that AD has to buy off on knowing it was 100% not true....is that your version?
Just want to make sure I have this correct above.
Pretty sure this belongs in your "Old Stuff" thread.
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Jamil Lott, Marcus Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Mike Kinsella, Joe Fulce....squirmy
Chico is "all in" on unqualified high schoolers, JUCOs, transfers and guys from prep school diploma mills - if the coach is Tom Crean.
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Jamil Lott, Marcus Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Mike Kinsella, Joe Fulce....squirmy
A little digging, Buzz had five JUCOs on one team, that's a huge percentage of the roster, which means constant turnover.
The players above in your post, did not all play together, so talk about moving the goal posts.
JUCOs are fine, but not is mass quantities. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and works against you in high school recruiting because kids always think you are going to bring in another JUCO. Then you have issues about whether they can graduate, will the course work transfer. And of course most JUCOs are only 2 year players, there are exceptions like Kinsella, Butler.
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Cal is a crapshow. The department is in ridiculous debt. The football stadium renovations won’t be paid off for another 100 years. And they do have high academic standards for recruiting.That’s why he left. I think he would have stayed at MU with the stability and commitment of the school.
OK, you're allowed your opinion.
I am glad we didn't hire him, and if he is the best example of the kind of high-quality, proven P5 coaches who will be lining up for the MU job the next time it's open, I'll again be happy to go with a top assistant from a great program.
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Jamil Lott, Marcus Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Mike Kinsella, Joe Fulce....squirmy
Kinsella started at Rice. 4-2-4. Fulce was a qualifier out of HS. Jackson had to graduate before TC was allowed to bring an another non-qualifier JUCO.
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OK, you're allowed your opinion.
I am glad we didn't hire him, and if he is the best example of the kind of high-quality, proven P5 coaches who will be lining up for the MU job the next time it's open, I'll again be happy to go with a top assistant from a great program.
I’m not saying we should have hired him, just providing context for the Cal situation.
I had no issues with hiring Wojo. I am fine in hiring a guy who views MU as a steppingstone job since that means they will have left us in better shape than which they found us.
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I’m not saying we should have hired him, just providing context for the Cal situation.
I had no issues with hiring Wojo. I am fine in hiring a guy who views MU as a steppingstone job since that means they will have left us in better shape than which they found us.
Yes, when one looks at KO and TC. Now, Mike Deane was a different result though he probably viewed MU as a destination job? As for Buzz, well, that’s a story unto itself.
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I’m not saying we should have hired him, just providing context for the Cal situation.
I had no issues with hiring Wojo. I am fine in hiring a guy who views MU as a steppingstone job since that means they will have left us in better shape than which they found us.
Fair enough. Definitely agree with your last line.
Very, very few basketball coaching jobs are not "stepping stone" jobs. Even the Ks, Izzo, Cals, etc have considered going to the NBA. Even Roy left Kansas. Even Al tried to bolt Marquette.
For the most part, these coaches wouldn't be in position to step away if, as you said, they hadn't excelled.
And if you're not at a blueblood with a shot an NBA gig, you almost always are looking for a bigger college job. The Mark Fews and Bob McKillops are rare.
I hope Wojo does so well at Marquette that he becomes a hot commodity ... and then I'd be hoping he decides he'd rather stay than go.
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If you can see the future why are you being wasteful and spending time on Scoop?
Because, like me, #UnleashCain knows that MUScoop will soon be the site of an unprecedented breakthrough in interpersonal relations leading to peace and mutual respect among persons of differing opinions.
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There is something wrong when we are lumped in with Dayton, or that we are even included in this conversation.
Ahh, but did Dayton receive 50% more votes as the most underrated program due to better resources, or due to significantly lower expectations regarding future success?
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A little digging, Buzz had five JUCOs on one team, that's a huge percentage of the roster, which means constant turnover.
The players above in your post, did not all play together, so talk about moving the goal posts.
JUCOs are fine, but not is mass quantities. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and works against you in high school recruiting because kids always think you are going to bring in another JUCO. Then you have issues about whether they can graduate, will the course work transfer. And of course most JUCOs are only 2 year players, there are exceptions like Kinsella, Butler.
Buzz's first full year recruiting class included 4 freshmen, a 7-2 center and three RCSI top 75 players along with 2 Jucos, even though, he had brought in 2 Jucos the year before after the 2008 recruiting class fell apart after Crean left.
Buzz's problems with recruiting freshmen centered more on getting players who were way overrated: Mbao, Eric Williams, Jamil Jones, Juan Anderson, somewhat overrated: Derrick Wilson (wasn't top 100), Junior Cadougan, or problematic Jeronnie Myamon, Todd Mayo.
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Buzz's first full year recruiting class included 4 freshmen, a 7-2 center and three RCSI top 75 players along with 2 Jucos, even though, he had brought in 2 Jucos the year before after the 2008 recruiting class fell apart after Crean left.
Buzz's problems with recruiting freshmen centered more on getting players who were way overrated: Mbao, Eric Williams, Jamil Jones, Juan Anderson, somewhat overrated: Derrick Wilson (wasn't top 100), Junior Cadougan, or problematic Jeronnie Myamon, Todd Mayo.
I agree with you that he was not a great evaluator of high school seniors or when he did find them, some left early. That put him in catch up mode. That then leads to further imbalance, however, if you go down that path from continuity, culture, etc. But yes, I agree with you on how he got there to a large degree.
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Buzz's first full year recruiting class included 4 freshmen, a 7-2 center and three RCSI top 75 players along with 2 Jucos, even though, he had brought in 2 Jucos the year before after the 2008 recruiting class fell apart after Crean left.
Good points.
The team Buzz inherited (2008-09) had 4 senior starters and only one freshman (TC took Nick Williams with him to Indiana and Ty Taylor used his get out of jail free card to go to dream school Kansas). Then Pat (the thief) Hazel had to be kicked off the team the following year. So Buzz had some serious scrambling to do to avoid a total rebuild. Jucos (thank God) were part of that - he did it on the run and (incredibly) never lost the momentum from the very good (but very old - 4 senior starters) team he inherited. In fact, he built on it, culminating in 2012-13 with a team that won the Big East regular season championship and advanced to the Elite 8. BTW, that team had zero Junior college players on it - not that it matters to any but a few snobs in our fanbase.
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2012-13 with a team that won the Big East regular season championship and advanced to the Elite 8. BTW, that team had zero Junior college players on it - not that it matters to any but a few snobs in our fanbase.
Superb point, Lenny, and one I haven't seen anybody else make. (Maybe somebody has, and if so I'm sure that person will point it out, so apologies in advance.)
The Jucos helped Buzz bridge the gap (while still winning a lot of games and making NCAA tourneys) between the last TC team and our E8/BE title team.
A regular transfer (Jamil) and a grad transfer (Lockett) were important role players on our E8/BE title team. So Buzz did a nice job all around through recruits, transfers and, before that Jucos.
Some might find a way to criticize that. I call it good coaching.