MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: warriorchick on July 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
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Too lazy to find the old thread where some of y'all were asking about some of these stats:
https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424 (https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424)
(https://give.marquette.edu/image/DR-FY19-Impact-Infographic.png)
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Too lazy to find the old thread where some of y'all were asking about some of these stats:
https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424 (https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424)
(https://give.marquette.edu/image/DR-FY19-Impact-Infographic.png)
The most impressive number among many is the first generation number.
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So, MU doesn't have to photo shop in a brother?
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I don't see anything about the $2,000 tuition increase?
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80% do community service? That seems crazy high.
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To be celebrated.
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80% do community service? That seems crazy high.
Not really. It's essentially required in a variety of core classes. Both my kids had some as part of regular curriculum. (They did plenty on their own too.)
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I don't see anything about the $2,000 tuition increase?
Tuition has gone up every year since..... wait for it...... 1881.
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Tuition has gone up every year since..... wait for it...... 1881.
Unfortunately, you can no longer pay for your tuition with kegs of beer. Perhaps they stopped doing it when students said they would rather keep the beer and use cash.
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80% do community service? That seems crazy high.
It actually sounds about right; maybe even a little low.
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80% do community service? That seems crazy high.
Requirements. Probably everyone outside of seniors were forced to do community service for at least 1 class.
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Requirements. Probably everyone outside of seniors were forced to do community service for at least 1 class.
Then, I guess the percentage seems completely irrelevant, and low.
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Requirements. Probably everyone outside of seniors were forced to do community service for at least 1 class.
Damn, I don’t remember what the hell I did for community service. Or which class required it
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Tuition has gone up every year since..... wait for it...... 1881.
Yet I doubt any other 10-year period has a ~49% hike like we've seen since 08-09 to 18-19.
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Then, I guess the percentage seems completely irrelevant, and low.
Very cynical of you.
One event alone involves over 1,300 students, none of whom are required to attend:
https://marquettewire.org/4013443/news/student-participate-in-30th-hunger-clean-up/
There are also hundreds of kids annually who give up their Spring Break to do service trips, including ones through this disaster relief organization that was started by a Marquette student:
https://www.mumardigras.com/
BTW, there is no drinking allowed on those Spring Break trips, and it is strictly enforced.
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Yet I doubt any other 10-year period has a ~49% hike like we've seen since 08-09 to 18-19.
How much has it gone up at similar private universities?
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Raw tuition numbers are irrelevant without knowing the discounts.
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How much has it gone up at similar private universities?
Probably very similar but I don't want to spend the time to do the research. It's not a Marquette specific issue.
Raw tuition numbers are irrelevant without knowing the discounts.
I agree in part, but I would be willing to bet the discounts haven't increased at the same rate as tuition. Today's cost of attendance in 2009 dollars is way more than it was in 2009.
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I agree in part, but I would be willing to bet the discounts haven't increased at the same rate as tuition. Today's cost of attendance in 2009 dollars is way more than it was in 2009.
Undoubtedly true. Cost is going up all over the place.
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Very cynical of you.
One event alone involves over 1,300 students, none of whom are required to attend:
https://marquettewire.org/4013443/news/student-participate-in-30th-hunger-clean-up/
There are also hundreds of kids annually who give up their Spring Break to do service trips, including ones through this disaster relief organization that was started by a Marquette student:
https://www.mumardigras.com/
BTW, there is no drinking allowed on those Spring Break trips, and it is strictly enforced.
So, 11% of the students participate in the largest, non-mandatory community service event, yet-- when factoring in required service-- 80% participate in something? Are we pretending 8,000ish kids volunteer on their own, yet skipped Hunger Clean-up?
I'm all for my school putting it's "best face forward" for recruitment purposes, but it's not cynical to look at the numbers while on a Marquette message board.
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So, 11% of the students participate in the largest, non-mandatory community service event, yet-- when factoring in required service-- 80% participate in something? Are we pretending 8,000ish kids volunteer on their own, yet skipped Hunger Clean-up?
I'm all for my school putting it's "best face forward" for recruitment purposes, but it's not cynical to look at the numbers while on a Marquette message board.
Students now are very involved in clubs and organizations that are very active in community service. There are countless clubs/organizations for any type of interest you have and in any area you want to make a difference.
Many students would prefer to be very active in a smaller community service based organization then simply taking part in one large event.
Your statement is cynical, and doesn't represent the activities and goals of the current generation of students. They tend to be very community service oriented.
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I never did hunger clean up. I was never required to do service. I also voluntarily did service dozens of times while at MU. I can say the same about many of my friends.
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I never did hunger clean up. I was never required to do service. I also voluntarily did service dozens of times while at MU. I can say the same about many of my friends.
Same here. Did Hunger Clean Up once. Did weekly service through Midnight Run 7 semesters.
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Did weekly service through Midnight Run 7 semesters.
I remember Midnight Run when we would head out at lunch time with 10 sandwiches in the van, and return 90 minutes later with six. That didn't last long. At all.
I met my wife working on Midnight Run. Our first dog's "official" name was "Murphy's Midnight Run."
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"Murphy's Midnight Run."
AKC or 31 Flavors?
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AKC or 31 Flavors?
It was the name we chose for AKC registration. I honestly don't recall if we ever went through with it. It was many years ago. I have a vague recollection that someone told us it wasn't really worth the trouble - particularly since we planned to have her spayed.
Not sure what "31 Flavors" means in this context.
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31 Flavors = mix/ mutt
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I remember Midnight Run when we would head out at lunch time with 10 sandwiches in the van, and return 90 minutes later with six. That didn't last long. At all.
I met my wife working on Midnight Run. Our first dog's "official" name was "Murphy's Midnight Run."
Well, Inferiority Complex would say that you obviously only did Midnight Run to pick up chicks, so that doesn't count as real community service.
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I remember Midnight Run when we would head out at lunch time with 10 sandwiches in the van, and return 90 minutes later with six. That didn't last long. At all.
I met my wife working on Midnight Run. Our first dog's "official" name was "Murphy's Midnight Run."
Things had changed up quite a bit by the time I got there. One set meal site but partnerships with maybe a dozen orgs that you otherwise went to to volunteer.
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Things had changed up quite a bit by the time I got there. One set meal site but partnerships with maybe a dozen orgs that you otherwise went to to volunteer.
Things changed quite a bit within a matter of weeks, actually. We figured things out, and the people we were serving figured things out. Within a few weeks we had a pretty set location -- on 9th Street next to the library -- and we would run out of food pretty quickly. It wasn't long before we started taking a lot more food. It was really great being involved at the very beginning of Midnight run (https://www.marquette.edu/cm/service/midnight_run/history.shtml) -- to see something like that get up and running. And it makes me very happy to read about what it's become (https://www.marquette.edu/cm/service/midnight_run/index.shtml). I'm thankful a friend invited me to be involved.
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Well, Inferiority Complex would say that you obviously only did Midnight Run to pick up chicks, so that doesn't count as real community service.
Apparently, there are 9,284 students just like you guys now. No wonder students can't make it to games.
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So not to get into the 'back and forth' as I've been out of this thread but I will tell you that 'service' is a completely different animal at Marquette now compared to when I was on campus 40 years ago. It's absolutely part of the core culture now, expected of every student at some level. Some dabble via a single required core course (eg., my kids read to underprivileged grade schoolers and did 'nature appreciation' work with inner city youth, respectively.) A subset (mine included) then invest themselves more fully through a variety of service organizations, some of which have been mentioned. For one of my kids, that experience led directly to his career.
So yeah, it's a big deal these days on campus.
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Too lazy to find the old thread where some of y'all were asking about some of these stats:
https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424 (https://give.marquette.edu/presidents-society-impact?erid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424&trid=55ba2287-cec3-49d3-ab67-98d7af4f1424)
(https://give.marquette.edu/image/DR-FY19-Impact-Infographic.png)
It a single thing about academic quality of the incoming students. Kids ranked in their class, valedictorians, avg test scores, etc.
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It a single thing about academic quality of the incoming students. Kids ranked in their class, valedictorians, avg test scores, etc.
?????
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?????
Gotta think about the NE snobs and the acceptance rate, aina.
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It a single thing about academic quality of the incoming students. Kids ranked in their class, valedictorians, avg test scores, etc.
Did you have a stroke while writing this
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?????
I hate my phone. Lol.
There isn’t a single thing on there about academic gravitas of the incoming students. Test scores, class rankings, etc. What is the quality of the students? I get the check boxes everyone is trying to check, but outside of that how do the kids rate academically?
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I hate my phone. Lol.
There isn’t a single thing on there about academic gravitas of the incoming students. Test scores, class rankings, etc. What is the quality of the students? I get the check boxes everyone is trying to check, but outside of that how do the kids rate academically?
Here you go.
https://www.marquette.edu/oira/index.shtml
Geek out to your heart's content.
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Here you go.
https://www.marquette.edu/oira/index.shtml
Geek out to your heart's content.
Thank you MU Chick.
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Do you or anyone have stats that break this down more?
Geography? Specifically, states, countries etc...Race? Black% Hispanic% etc...
I’d be interested in more of a specific breakdown.
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Do you or anyone have stats that break this down more?
Geography? Specifically, states, countries etc...Race? Black% Hispanic% etc...
I’d be interested in more of a specific breakdown.
The web page I linked lets you drill down drill down in all sorts of ways.
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The web page I linked lets you drill down drill down in all sorts of ways.
While it’s good to see high enrollment numbers I wonder if we’re sacrificing quality for quantity. Average SAT score is down from 2014. I don’t put too much weight in class rank and GPA due to the inequality in schools. Standardized tests are the great equalizer.
Post Final Four we capped undergrad enrollment. That seems to have gone away.
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While it’s good to see high enrollment numbers I wonder if we’re sacrificing quality for quantity. Average SAT score is down from 2014. I don’t put too much weight in class rank and GPA due to the inequality in schools. Standardized tests are the great equalizer.
Post Final Four we capped undergrad enrollment. That seems to have gone away.
My worry as well. Maybe we should get rid of SAT scores to hide the drop......
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My worry as well. Maybe we should get rid of SAT scores to hide the drop......
My kids, who graduated in '14 and '16, didn't take the SAT. Their ACT scores were both above 30. In the midwest, ACT is king, so I would think the SAT scores are artificially low for students who aren't planning to go East or West.
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My kids, who graduated in '14 and '16, didn't take the SAT. Their ACT scores were both above 30. In the midwest, ACT is king, so I would think the SAT scores are artificially low for students who aren't planning to go East or West.
Understood. My kids took both, if I understand correctly MU not requiring either if a student opts not to submit. Which means only students with good scores will bother to submit in the future.
I was glad to see MU using tableau.
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ACT scores are about level. Things are fine.
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What is St. Norbert’s doing?
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ACT scores are about level. Things are fine.
I would point out they are level while increasing the percentage of students of color and first-gen students.
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.. In the midwest, ACT is king, so I would think the SAT scores are artificially low for students who aren't planning to go East or West.
Minnesotan here .. very few people took the ACT in the mid-80s. Of my class, it was like 160 took the SAT, and 10 took the ACT.
I was always curious why certain schools are/were like that .. then people at WI high schools were all about the ACT.
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Minnesotan here .. very few people took the ACT in the mid-80s. Of my class, it was like 160 took the SAT, and 10 took the ACT.
I was always curious why certain schools are/were like that .. then people at WI high schools were all about the ACT.
In Illinois, high school students are required to take the ACT even if they aren't planning to go to college. A lot of kids don't bother to take the SAT if none of the schools they are applying to require it.
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In Illinois, high school students are required to take the ACT even if they aren't planning to go to college. A lot of kids don't bother to take the SAT if none of the schools they are applying to require it.
Isn’t it the other way around or did it change again?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-chooses-sat-met-20160211-story.html%3foutputType=amp
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Isn’t it the other way around or did it change again?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-illinois-chooses-sat-met-20160211-story.html%3foutputType=amp
It may have changed, but I can tell you that it was the ACT from 2009-2012.
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In Illinois, high school students are required to take the ACT even if they aren't planning to go to college. A lot of kids don't bother to take the SAT if none of the schools they are applying to require it.
In Connecticut all students take the SAT.
My older daughter took both because she knew she was applying to Midwest schools where the ACT was more common.
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Looks like SAT for Illinois
https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/chicago/2018/07/27/act-protests-state-boards-embrace-of-rival-test-provider/
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In the end, does it really matter, SAT vs. ACT?
Is there a university out there that would say "Sorry, you didn't take the right test.."?
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Minnesotan here .. very few people took the ACT in the mid-80s. Of my class, it was like 160 took the SAT, and 10 took the ACT.
I was always curious why certain schools are/were like that .. then people at WI high schools were all about the ACT.
in my midwestern HS, the SAT wasn't even an option.
Interesting map here. Illinois is the outlier for the midwest and SAT.
https://www.studypoint.com/ed/sat-and-act-test/
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In the end, does it really matter, SAT vs. ACT?
Is there a university out there that would say "Sorry, you didn't take the right test.."?
when the SAT was out of 2400, yes.
Some of the elite schools also require a SAT subject test.
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Yes this is the largest first year class in University history. But it was short of goal and well short of long-range goals set a few years ago. Also discounted way more than they wanted. Rumors are that lay-offs or other sorts of RIF will be rolled out shortly. The University is not in great fiscal health right now.
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Yes this is the largest first year class in University history. But it was short of goal and well short of long-range goals set a few years ago. Also discounted way more than they wanted. Rumors are that lay-offs or other sorts of RIF will be rolled out shortly. The University is not in great fiscal health right now.
Many thought the long range goals were pie in the sky ridiculous.
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Many thought the long range goals were pie in the sky ridiculous.
Problem is they budgeted against them. Deficit financed projects hoping for a pay off down the line. Now it’s time to pay the piper and the bodies aren’t there. Fund raising hasn’t been great either. Lovell has to figure this out.
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https://marquettewire.org/4015761/news/breaking-university-lays-off-employees-will-not-fill-certain-vacancies/
As I mentioned earlier, the "record enrollment" stuff was smoke and mirrors. Lovell can blame demographics all he wants, but he was the one who spearheaded the effort to have expenditures exceed revenues for the past few years in the hopes that it would spur greater enrollment. It didn't work and the Board needs to be asking questions.
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https://marquettewire.org/4015761/news/breaking-university-lays-off-employees-will-not-fill-certain-vacancies/
As I mentioned earlier, the "record enrollment" stuff was smoke and mirrors. Lovell can blame demographics all he wants, but he was the one who spearheaded the effort to have expenditures exceed revenues for the past few years in the hopes that it would spur greater enrollment. It didn't work and the Board needs to be asking questions.
How do you know? You don’t. Can you say with any certainty if the spending would not have happened enrollment would be worse? Impossible to know. Are you really suggesting demographics aren’t changing....because they certainly are.
I’m more concerned about the endowment going down this past year, especially with the market where it is at.
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in my midwestern HS, the SAT wasn't even an option.
Interesting map here. Illinois is the outlier for the midwest and SAT.
https://www.studypoint.com/ed/sat-and-act-test/
I have no idea which states favor which test, but looking at the map you linked...are you in need of a geography refresher, Billy?
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How do you know? You don’t. Can you say with any certainty if the spending would not have happened enrollment would be worse? Impossible to know. Are you really suggesting demographics aren’t changing....because they certainly are.
Cheeks, if you went to your boss and said, "I know a great way to increase revenue, but I need an investment of x-amount first," and she said "sure," and the revenue did't come, what would her reaction be? What if your excuse was "You don't know! The revenue could have been actually worse!" Would you even have a job?
Of course the demographics are changing. Everyone has known that for years. It takes awhile for students to reach college age you know. DESPITE THAT, Lovell sold the Board on this plan. And it flat out didn't work. It hasn't met HIS OWN projections!
Furthermore, what about the plans that have had to be downsized (AHPRC) or put on the backburner (new business school)? The fundraising hasn't been there either. Lovell is on his THIRD fundraising VP in just over TWO years.
The Board needs to ask questions. A lot of them.
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Cheeks, if you went to your boss and said, "I know a great way to increase revenue, but I need an investment of x-amount first," and she said "sure," and the revenue did't come, what would her reaction be? What if your excuse was "You don't know! The revenue could have been actually worse!" Would you even have a job?
Of course the demographics are changing. Everyone has known that for years. It takes awhile for students to reach college age you know. DESPITE THAT, Lovell sold the Board on this plan. And it flat out didn't work. It hasn't met HIS OWN projections!
Furthermore, what about the plans that have had to be downsized (AHPRC) or put on the backburner (new business school)? The fundraising hasn't been there either. Lovell is on his THIRD fundraising VP in just over TWO years.
The Board needs to ask questions. A lot of them.
If I went to my boss and said we can keep the budget the same and we expect we will have a net negative impact on students the next 10 years of X percent, or we can spend some money and stay flat, or expected loss is only 2%....depending on what the cost of the investment is might lead to a yes.
Those decisions are made all the time. Sometimes you have to spend money to slow the hemorrhage, even if it doesn’t mean net growth but rather results in better than expected net losses. All comes down the numbers.
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If I went to my boss and said we can keep the budget the same and we expect we will have a net negative impact on students the next 10 years of X percent, or we can spend some money and stay flat, or expected loss is only 2%....depending on what the cost of the investment is might lead to a yes.
But that's not what happened at Marquette. Lovell was touting growth in enrollement. It's what he has been telling the Trustees, the Alumni Board, etc.
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But that's not what happened at Marquette. Lovell was touting growth in enrollement. It's what he has been telling the Trustees, the Alumni Board, etc.
Thank you.....but let me ask you this, was the growth trajectory immediate? Down the road? To what extent? If he made that promise and it didn't materialize, then that's on the school and their analysis in the business case. Normally these have long payout curves, so I cannot imagine anyone is ready to call it a failure unless the projection was an immediate huge boost.
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Marquette is not achieving the enrollment revenue that they targeted this year. The goals outlined in Lovell’s plan. This has been a short term failure and could turn into a long term problem.
BTW all of this was told to me weeks ago by someone who works in the administration. The alarm bells have been going off for months when they realized this class was going to fall way short.
The blaming of demographics is just spin.
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Marquette is not achieving the enrollment revenue that they targeted this year. The goals outlined in Lovell’s plan. This has been a short term failure and could turn into a long term problem.
BTW all of this was told to me weeks ago by someone who works in the administration. The alarm bells have been going off for months when they realized this class was going to fall way short.
The blaming of demographics is just spin.
Well I do know one more student who desperately wanted to attend Marquette this upcoming year, but ended up at a rival Big East school instead. So far so good and she's liking everything so far.
So much for my last 25 years of Admissions and Alumni Club volunteering.
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Well I do know one more student who desperately wanted to attend Marquette this upcoming year, but ended up at a rival Big East school instead. So far so good and she's liking everything so far.
So much for my last 25 years of Admissions and Alumni Club volunteering.
I've got one at a rival Big East school too.
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on a positive note, I was trying to talk my friend's son into checking out MU (he'd get tuition remission via exchange) and take him to a basketball game this summer and my buddy said: "he wouldn't get in, too good of a school."
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on a positive note, I was trying to talk my friend's son into checking out MU (he'd get tuition remission via exchange) and take him to a basketball game this summer and my buddy said: "he wouldn't get in, too good of a school."
Does he know about the 85% acceptance rate?
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Does he know about the 85% acceptance rate?
One would hope MU would include some Arby's coupons for the other 15%.
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Does he know about the 85% acceptance rate?
The kid's ACT score is too low per MU's published averages for accepted students. He would be part of the 15%.
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One would hope MU would include some Arby's coupons for the other 15%.
That would be a fantastic marketing ploy. Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons: "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"
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on a positive note, I was trying to talk my friend's son into checking out MU (he'd get tuition remission via exchange) and take him to a basketball game this summer and my buddy said: "he wouldn't get in, too good of a school."
You were going to take him to the MU games in Europe? Sweet. I want to be your friend too.
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That would be a fantastic marketing ploy. Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons: "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"
. And while you are at it, would you mind giving our brochure to one of your smarter friends?
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That would be a fantastic marketing ploy. Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons: "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"
I'd apply once a week.
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That would be a fantastic marketing ploy. Send the people who don't get accepted a "big envelope" with a bunch of Arby's coupons: "We're sorry you didn't get accepted, but enjoy a Beef & Cheddar on us!"
Might as well include an Arby’s application if they can’t get into this lower version of higher education.
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Might as well include an Arby’s application if they can’t get into this lower version of higher education.
Arby’s Frontier Program. The coupons count towards discounted tuition.
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Marquette is not achieving the enrollment revenue that they targeted this year. The goals outlined in Lovell’s plan. This has been a short term failure and could turn into a long term problem.
BTW all of this was told to me weeks ago by someone who works in the administration. The alarm bells have been going off for months when they realized this class was going to fall way short.
The blaming of demographics is just spin.
Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.
The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.
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Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.
The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.
I can’t blame international students not wanting to come to the US at this time in history.
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Part of this is due to factors not in America's control. India has invested a bunch in their universities so they aren't moving abroad as much. Saudi Arabia, under Salman, aren't investing as much in their study abroad program.
But Mexican students made up a ton of those going abroad, and that has dropped to a near trickle for obvious reasons.
And this is mostly affecting schools in the midwest. Schools in the east and west aren't seeing as big of a drop.
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Part of this is due to factors not in America's control. India has invested a bunch in their universities so they aren't moving abroad as much. Saudi Arabia, under Salman, aren't investing as much in their study abroad program.
But Mexican students made up a ton of those going abroad, and that has dropped to a near trickle for obvious reasons.
And this is mostly affecting schools in the midwest. Schools in the east and west aren't seeing as big of a drop.
Schools in the south are also being hit big. The south and midwest are the largest areas being affected. And yes, your assessment on the complexities of why are correct.
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Schools in the south are also being hit big. The south and midwest are the largest areas being affected. And yes, your assessment on the complexities of why are correct.
Yup, schools chasing the money with international kids paying full freight and as a byproduct some American kids left standing. Been a raging debate in California the last ten years as the public state systems tax payers pay for have made it very difficult for the kids of taxpayers of this state to attend. In essence, we are paying for kids from everywhere else to come and get educated. UC and Cal Stare schools were forced to open up more slots for actual state residents it had gotten so bad.
Two sides to the coin folks.
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Had a meeting with leaders at another institution similar to MU, and thought I'd update people who are interested in where MU and similar institution problems are coming from. They are also experiencing budget deficits and cuts. It is apparently widespread. The actual reasons are more complicated than they are publicly stating.
The issue is a significant decline in international applications in the past couple years. The students are instead applying to schools in Canada and the EU. These students, particularly master's students, pay full tuition and were major sources of revenue. The decline in their applications have led to unexpected budget pressures that are being met with cuts, and as a precaution, changes in future plans in case the problem is not resolved soon.
Marquette has never relied on international students for enrollment. In the past decade, incoming non-US-based freshman enrollment has ranged between 29 and 72, and the change in that number does not correlate with the overall rise and fall in overall in enrollment. For example in 2018, the freshman enrollment was 2,162, with 29 international students. In 2013, freshman enrollment was 1,989 with 72 international students.
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Ah eye cee, MU's budgetary issues are da Prez's fault, aina?
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Plenty of capacity in higher education. It’s not a problem.
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Plenty of capacity in higher education. It’s not a problem.
Capacity is one thing. Quality capacity at desirable schools not always the case.
21% of UC schools students...
https://www.vcstar.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/08/22/uc-continues-enrollment-chicanery/590341001/
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Marquette has never relied on international students for enrollment. In the past decade, incoming non-US-based freshman enrollment has ranged between 29 and 72, and the change in that number does not correlate with the overall rise and fall in overall in enrollment. For example in 2018, the freshman enrollment was 2,162, with 29 international students. In 2013, freshman enrollment was 1,989 with 72 international students.
If they were budgeting with the expectation that they would stay at ~72, that is a budget shortfall of $1.8M, since they pay full tuition. If they were planning on growing even modestly, lets say to 100, that is a budget shortfall of $3M.
Those are significant numbers due to a small number of students. But you are looking at undergraduates only. The big money is in graduate students. Marquette has ~700 international students enrolled. The majority graduate students, who also pay full tuition.
Ah eye cee, MU's budgetary issues are da Prez's fault, aina?
As Fluffy said, and I agreed. There are a number of reasons. It is fairly complex. A significant one is Saudi Arabia cutting back on scholarships to its youth.
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Yup, schools chasing the money with international kids paying full freight and as a byproduct some American kids left standing. Been a raging debate in California the last ten years as the public state systems tax payers pay for have made it very difficult for the kids of taxpayers of this state to attend. In essence, we are paying for kids from everywhere else to come and get educated. UC and Cal Stare schools were forced to open up more slots for actual state residents it had gotten so bad.
Two sides to the coin folks.
Not going to disagree entirely. Capacity is limited in some schools for undergraduate first-year students (not necessarily transfers). The numbers of undergraduate International students are not often affecting admissions of any other prospective students (I do not know the situations in CA, so that could be incorrect there).
They are rarely limited for graduate students. That is why international graduate students are so attractive to these schools, and reduction in applications on this front is a problem. They pay full tuition, and do not impact capacity. Essentially pure revenue.
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Plenty of capacity at quality schools. Californians just need to learn how to cross a state border.
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If they were budgeting with the expectation that they would stay at ~72, that is a budget shortfall of $1.8M, since they pay full tuition. If they were planning on growing even modestly, lets say to 100, that is a budget shortfall of $3M.
Those are significant numbers due to a small number of students. But you are looking at undergraduates only. The big money is in graduate students. Marquette has ~700 international students enrolled. The majority graduate students, who also pay full tuition.
As Fluffy said, and I agreed. There are a number of reasons. It is fairly complex. A significant one is Saudi Arabia cutting back on scholarships to its youth.
I belleve the original conversation was about undergrads. And exactly how many Saudi students have traditionally enrolled at Marquette?
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in my midwestern HS, the SAT wasn't even an option.
Interesting map here. Illinois is the outlier for the midwest and SAT.
https://www.studypoint.com/ed/sat-and-act-test/
that map shows Indiana as the SAT outlier
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Plenty of capacity at quality schools. Californians just need to learn how to cross a state border.
Uhm, Californians are paying hefty taxes for the state schools here, and many of them very good students who cannot get in because the state schools want the money from not Calif or even non US citizens. I’m sure you can understand that subsidy rankles many people here....and believe me, many have learned how to cross stare borders...permanently. Last week was the annual results, and net exodus continues in this state...cannot flee fast enough.
Another 691k said bye bye...4% increase from last year.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/691145-californians-left-last-year-what-state-did-they-go-to/ar-AAJGRvy
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Uhm, Californians are paying hefty taxes for the state schools here, and many of them very good students who cannot get in because the state schools want the money from not Calif or even non US citizens. I’m sure you can understand that subsidy rankles many people here....and believe me, many have learned how to cross stare borders...permanently. Last week was the annual results, and net exodus continues in this state...cannot flee fast enough.
Sounds like Illinois. And Glow and I will be joining the fleeing ranks as soon as we can get someone to buy our house.
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Sounds like Illinois. And Glow and I will be joining the fleeing ranks as soon as we can get someone to buy our house.
I wish you all the best. About 8 more months for us if all goes well.
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I belleve the original conversation was about undergrads. And exactly how many Saudi students have traditionally enrolled at Marquette?
My apologies on the confusion. The original thread was indeed about undergrads. It then turned into a criticism on the administration about budget cuts. Some of the messaging coming out of institutions simply references "enrollment growth," because it is more palatable than "we expected more international students paying full tuition". I was trying to give an update on origins of similar budget shortfalls nationwide.
Regarding Saudi students at MU. There honestly aren't that many. That isn't a major player at MU. But I'm intentionally avoiding going down the actual reasons MU is likely affected, and instead am trying to focus on general trends nationwide. MU from 2017 to 2018 alone saw a 7% decline in international student enrollment. That follows a similar decline in 2016-17.
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Californians have not been supporting higher eduation. The amount per student has decreased signficantly over the past 30 years, which has lead to tuition supported institutions who are naturally seeking out students who will pay more. It's simple supply and demand.
If Californians want more access to public higher education, they should pay for it. But they won't.
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But I'm intentionally avoiding going down the actual reasons MU is likely affected, and instead am trying to focus on general trends nationwide.
Why? Some of us would like to know more as to the underlying reasons. Besides what you’ve heard from people more in the know, are there any other reasons you think or suspect is the cause?
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Sounds like Illinois. And Glow and I will be joining the fleeing ranks as soon as we can get someone to buy our house.
That's really going to make your drive to MUBB games extreme...
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That's really going to make your drive to MUBB games extreme...
Nope. And we'll have an announcement about that shortly.
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Kan't wait ta heer all 'bout da Glow Wing added two the Commons wit yo own guest suite added on da ground floor, aina?
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Nope. And we'll have an announcement about that shortly.
I can’t wait for the Crystal Ball reports as we prepare for the hat ceremony.
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Two Fascinating articles from this morning's WSJ attached. One about the increasing practice of schools using standardized test data to increase applicants, the other about Occidental College's mission to increase enrollment of minority and first generation students, which they're doing on a much larger scale than MU apparently. The test data article mostly references elite schools, but there is some relevancy for MU there too. It was in the top 5 most popular articles among WSJ subs this am. I know there was another thread about this issue, but since this thread is closer to the top and addresses similar issues, I decided to post here.
The article about Occidental College in LA is interesting since MU has a very similar mission. WSJ is behind a sub wall but since I'm a subscriber, I've attached both articles as PDF's. Enjoy.
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That WSJ article shows exactly what is wrong with using admit rate as a measure of quality.
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Ah yes, the business of education. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in smoke-filled rooms, hey?
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That WSJ article shows exactly what is wrong with using admit rate as a measure of quality.
Agree completely, but until prospective students and their parents' perceptions about what constitutes quality changes, elite institutions probably won't change their behavior anytime soon. U.S. News eliminated acceptance rate as part of their criteria to determine rankings last year, but I'm guessing it will take the public at least another 10 years to get used to that. It will be interesting to see what if any effect their decision to eliminate acceptance rates as a factor has on overall applications to elite institutions over time.
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$100,000 tuition coming
Univ of Chicago’s approach to make themselves elite
https://apple.news/AYxhpUEC_SsmPCqbM3-26cQ
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Two Fascinating articles from this morning's WSJ attached. One about the increasing practice of schools using standardized test data to increase applicants, the other about Occidental College's mission to increase enrollment of minority and first generation students, which they're doing on a much larger scale than MU apparently. The test data article mostly references elite schools, but there is some relevancy for MU there too. It was in the top 5 most popular articles among WSJ subs this am. I know there was another thread about this issue, but since this thread is closer to the top and addresses similar issues, I decided to post here.
The article about Occidental College in LA is interesting since MU has a very similar mission. WSJ is behind a sub wall but since I'm a subscriber, I've attached both articles as PDF's. Enjoy.
That's been going on for years. Princeton and Harvard were fined by their accreditation agency in the early 2000's for doing this to lower their admission rates by purposely reaching out to students with no chance of getting admitted and encouraging them to apply. With the Common App it has become even easier to get more unqualified applicants to they can lower their admission rates.
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$100,000 tuition coming
Univ of Chicago’s approach to make themselves elite
https://apple.news/AYxhpUEC_SsmPCqbM3-26cQ
That's just a number though since few would actually be paying that. The wealthiest students (kids of millionaires) would but most would pay far less. Some of the Ivies have a threshold of around $65K AGI in the FAFSA for paying nothing to attend. My wife's sister only paid room and board at an Ivy. From the article (I do find considering $110,000/year, especially in Chicago, as wealthy quite out of touch):
The University of Chicago’s sticker price is currently roughly $80,300. But as is the case across higher education, most of its students in reality pay far less than the sticker price. Students with a family income below $75,000 are paying roughly $5,200 on average to attend the university this year, The Hechinger Report’s analysis indicates (official data aren’t yet available). Even the wealthiest families—those that make at least $110,000—on average are paying just about half of the total attendance cost. Fewer than half—42 percent—of the university’s 6,300 or so undergraduates paid the sticker price in the 2016–17 school year, according to the most recent available net-cost data.
In a comment to the University of Chicago student paper The Chicago Maroon in July, a university spokesman said the school guarantees students whose families make less than $125,000 tuition-free attendance, meaning they’re on the hook just for nonacademic expenses. And starting with the current freshman class, the spokesman noted, the University of Chicago is also covering the fees, room, and board for students with a household income below $60,000.
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Whoa. You guys would be shocked to know what I paid back in the day. 2 great years in Hyde Park learning from multiple Nobel laureates. It was a privilege.
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So you're saying paying for college is like shopping at Kohl's. You feel better walking out the door knowing you paid $45 for what some shmuck would have paid $235 for had they not gotten the clothes on sale and used Kohl's Cash
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Whoa. You guys would be shocked to know what I paid back in the day. 2 great years in Hyde Park learning from multiple Nobel laureates. It was a privilege.
Obama was your professor?
(Relax, its a joke, not politics.)
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Obama was your professor?
(Relax, its a joke, not politics.)
No way would U of C let Obama teach economics.
(Relax, it's a joke, not politics)
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No way would U of C let Obama teach economics.
(Relax, it's a joke, not politics)
He did teach law there, however.
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Obama was your professor?
(Relax, its a joke, not politics.)
Ha, I'm relaxed. No, my professors won real Nobels, not politically charged Peace Prizes. I think my count is now 3-4 separate individuals. For you old timers, no I didn't study under Uncle Milton. He was retired by then but still on campus. In fact, he lived in the next building over from me. But there were numerous first generation fathers of modern finance including Gene Fama, Merton Miller, Jim Laurie, Bob Hamada and Myron Scholes. Brilliant, brilliant men. And all absolutely super guys.
And long ago replaced by fancy and expensive real estate both in Hyde Park and downtown, the B-school (as it was called long before Sloan was in the picture) was nothing more than 4 classrooms, a lounge, an administrative office and a couple dozen professor's offices on the SE main quad on campus. The space still exists today, largely unused, except for the occasional generic classroom application. As had been said elsewhere, incredible minds didn't always need zillion dollar facilities. But we live in a different time now, I guess.
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🙄🙄🙄
The Peace Prize was an original Nobel. The Prize in economics is not an original Nobel. It was established 50 years ago.
I mean they are all “real” but my guess is that one gets disparaged based on the political leanings of the recipients.
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Ha, I'm relaxed. No, my professors won real Nobels, not politically charged Peace Prizes. I think my count is now 3-4 separate individuals. For you old timers, no I didn't study under Uncle Milton. He was retired by then but still on campus. In fact, he lived in the next building over from me. But there were numerous first generation fathers of modern finance including Gene Fama, Merton Miller, Jim Laurie, Bob Hamada and Myron Scholes. Brilliant, brilliant men. And all absolutely super guys.
And long ago replaced by fancy and expensive real estate both in Hyde Park and downtown, the B-school (as it was called long before Sloan was in the picture) was nothing more than 4 classrooms, a lounge, an administrative office and a few dozen professor's offices on the SE main quad on campus. The space still exists today, largely unused, except for the occasional generic classroom application. As had been said elsewhere, incredible minds didn't always need zillion dollar facilities. But we live in a different time now, I guess.
The economics prize is not an "actual" Nobel prize. It is not decided by the Nobel committee, the Nobel family, and many Swedes want the Nobel name associated with it removed.
It was created as a Economics prize "dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel".
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🙄🙄🙄
The Peace Prize was an original Nobel. The Prize in economics is not an original Nobel. It was established 50 years ago.
I mean they are all “real” but my guess is that one gets disparaged based on the political leanings of the recipients.
I was unaware of that. Interesting. And yes, the ones for various hard sciences (including economics) based on real research are wholly different from any that have been politicized over the years. I don't think anyone can argue that that fate hasn't occurred but that's another topic entirely.
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And long ago replaced by fancy and expensive real estate both in Hyde Park and downtown, the B-school (as it was called long before Sloan was in the picture) was nothing more than 4 classrooms, a lounge, an administrative office and a couple dozen professor's offices on the SE main quad on campus. The space still exists today, largely unused, except for the occasional generic classroom application. As had been said elsewhere, incredible minds didn't always need zillion dollar facilities. But we live in a different time now, I guess.
Curious, who is Sloan?
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I was unaware of that. Interesting. And yes, the ones for various hard sciences (including economics) based on real research are wholly different from any that have been politicized over the years. I don't think anyone can argue that that fate hasn't occurred but that's another topic entirely.
Not really. But whatever makes you feel good I guess
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The economics prize is not an "actual" Nobel prize. It is not decided by the Nobel committee, the Nobel family, and many Swedes want the Nobel name associated with it removed.
It was created as a Economics prize "dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel".
Sure. And the Kansas City Chiefs aren't "actually" an NFL team since they weren't in the original National Football League.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/
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I was unaware of that. Interesting. And yes, the ones for various hard sciences (including economics) based on real research are wholly different from any that have been politicized over the years. I don't think anyone can argue that that fate hasn't occurred but that's another topic entirely.
To be sure, politics is everywhere, bro, even in the Econ Nobel (and I'm sure the other fields as well, though maybe based on "politicking" rather than notions of fairness, justice, and efficiency).
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🙄🙄🙄
The Peace Prize was an original Nobel. The Prize in economics is not an original Nobel. It was established 50 years ago.
I mean they are all “real” but my guess is that one gets disparaged based on the political leanings of the recipients.
Or the fact people are given some of these prizes without literally doing a thing because of the political leanings of the ORGANIZATION.
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To be sure, politics is everywhere, bro, even in the Econ Nobel (and I'm sure the other fields as well, though maybe based on "politicking" rather than notions of fairness, justice, and efficiency).
Agreed. There is a lot of politics and politicking in the other Nobel prizes too.
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Californians have not been supporting higher eduation. The amount per student has decreased signficantly over the past 30 years, which has lead to tuition supported institutions who are naturally seeking out students who will pay more. It's simple supply and demand.
If Californians want more access to public higher education, they should pay for it. But they won't.
Might be because we are the most heavily taxed state in the nation already...when supporting utopia out here and having to pay for every unicorn there comes a point when all the green clovers and marshmallows run out....throw in the millions of “guests” who we also pay for and the “California citizens” have a very large bill. But ultimately to suggest we don’t spend a shat ton of money on education in this state is preposterous.