MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Herman Cain on July 18, 2019, 11:33:14 AM
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I thought the thread started by 1SE had some good points worth discussing . I was not able to get any comments prior to the lock so starting thread Part Two.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58899.msg1144674#msg1144674
I agree with the general proposition being made that Wojo was handed the MU job based on his Duke Lineage. At the time, this all came down Lovell was literally on week one of his job. So just like the old business saying "You can never go wrong with IBM" it was perceived to be the safe choice to take Wojo over Cuonzo or Howland or a mid major coach.
The first thing I have given Wojo consistent credit for is that he has embraced the history and alumni of Marquette Basketball . His whole focus is MU and not making the place Duke North.
The second thing I have given Wojo and Staff consistent credit for is working hard on the recruiting trail , high school, transfer, grad transfer and he has been able to consistently come up with 3 and 4 star players that allow the program to compete at the Big East Level.
So in general Wojo has done nothing to hurt MU and the considerable investment that has been made in basketball.
On the other hand, Wojo has not exhibited the true leadership skills to motivate kids in way that leads to the kind of success MU requires given its investment. I believe this performance is a function of MU being his first head coaching job and learning on the job.
MU is at a place where it will not improve to the next level of winning without better talent, the problem is to get the talent the program needs to demonstrate that it can win at that higher level. The classic chicken and egg scenario. This past year was a huge opportunity wasted with the collapse down the stretch. Wojo is getting a mulligan and another shot it this year, as the team is athletic and has good chemistry.
The Big East is only going to get tougher with the addition of U Conn . MU needs to firmly establish itself under Wojo as a top 3 in the league program. If Wojo cannot do that, it is time to move on.
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Wojo will have to coach differently this year with an athletic small team vs. having the Hauser, tall slow but good shooters. Backcourt is the strength, see if figures it out. Buzz did.
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We should only hire NAIA coaches from the school of hard knocks.
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Wojo will have to coach differently this year with an athletic small team vs. having the Hauser, tall slow but good shooters. Backcourt is the strength, see if figures it out. Buzz did.
We have a small team this year?
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No. But there will be more 3 guard sets. Sacar will move from 2g to SF. Bailey, Cain will play the 4 in small sets, Morrow in big sets. Instead of matching 6'8 Hausers, we will have an abundance of 6'3 guards.
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(https://i.imgur.com/dyeuYpC.jpg?fb)
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A few thoughts, first based on the OP of the first thread:
Yes, Wojo got his first head coaching job at a high major thanks to his work at Duke. Just like Tommy Amaker at Seton Hall, Johnny Dawkins at Stanford, and Chris Collins at Northwestern. Duke assistants generally go to high majors.
I agree about mid-major coaches having a leg up on career assistants. Yes, there are success stories like Roy and Izzo, but most of the big names are guys that proved they could outperform their peers at lower levels before getting a shot at the big time. I prefer that route. Coaches like Self, Miller, and Bennett won at lower tier jobs before getting a shot to compete at top programs and demonstrated an ability to lead a program. That means they already had to recruit, manage boosters, manage egos, work refs, and all the other things associated with being a head coach. There's less of a learning curve for those guys than there is for a career assistant who may have been told about the rigors of the big chair but never actually sat in it.
All that said, the general consensus seems to be that people like the players on the roster. Not just Markus, but guys like Theo, Elliott, Koby, Bailey, and Sacar have all shown flashes of potential and/or demonstrable growth in their time here. Wojo gets credit for that. He has been successful recruiting at the high school level, traditional transfers, and grad transfers. He has done a good job of getting assistants who can recruit quality players and quality people. And he's done so while maintaining the image of a clean program after a few blemishes under Buzz.
I hope he's successful in the coming seasons. If he's not, I hope we look to current head coaches rather than hoping again for the next Roy Williams because success from the former seems like a stronger strategy than success from the latter.
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Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.
I guess I just have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
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A few thoughts, first based on the OP of the first thread:
Yes, Wojo got his first head coaching job at a high major thanks to his work at Duke. Just like Tommy Amaker at Seton Hall, Johnny Dawkins at Stanford, and Chris Collins at Northwestern. Duke assistants generally go to high majors.
I agree about mid-major coaches having a leg up on career assistants. Yes, there are success stories like Roy and Izzo, but most of the big names are guys that proved they could outperform their peers at lower levels before getting a shot at the big time. I prefer that route. Coaches like Self, Miller, and Bennett won at lower tier jobs before getting a shot to compete at top programs and demonstrated an ability to lead a program. That means they already had to recruit, manage boosters, manage egos, work refs, and all the other things associated with being a head coach. There's less of a learning curve for those guys than there is for a career assistant who may have been told about the rigors of the big chair but never actually sat in it.
All that said, the general consensus seems to be that people like the players on the roster. Not just Markus, but guys like Theo, Elliott, Koby, Bailey, and Sacar have all shown flashes of potential and/or demonstrable growth in their time here. Wojo gets credit for that. He has been successful recruiting at the high school level, traditional transfers, and grad transfers. He has done a good job of getting assistants who can recruit quality players and quality people. And he's done so while maintaining the image of a clean program after a few blemishes under Buzz.
I hope he's successful in the coming seasons. If he's not, I hope we look to current head coaches rather than hoping again for the next Roy Williams because success from the former seems like a stronger strategy than success from the latter.
I do think it would have been to Wojo's benefit to have had another assistant job or jobs outside of Duke prior to getting the MU post. Just the first-hand experience of seeing another program, culture and coach would have been beneficial, IMO.
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Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.
You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.
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Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.
You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.
Funny, I recently heard someone say that too, perhaps last week. 😜
Marquette just isn’t going to hire Wardle. They are looking for long term success, done the right way.
Buzz was a decent bench coach, and pulled multiple rabbits out of his JUCO hat, but that’s not sustainable. There’s a reason he bailed on Marquette and on Ginny Tech.
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Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.
I guess I just have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
I agree with TAMU that Wardle would still be here. Two years of rebuild followed by NCAA/NIT/NCAA with the best season the most recent would keep almost anyone in their job.
I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.
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Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.
You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.
Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.
And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato
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Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.
And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato
Except that losing 6 of 7 was part of getting a 5 seed.
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Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.
And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed. Potayto potaato
Yes, Wardle would still have been here after year 4.
And hundreds of coaches have lost 6 of 7 in a season and gotten upset badly in the NCAA tournament and kept their jobs. I'd imagine there's plenty who have done both and kept their jobs. Zero have been fired after earning a 5 seed or better. All that means is that the first half of the season was that impressive.
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Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.
And some people say 5 seed, others say finishing the season losing 6 of 7, in the process choking away a conference title and getting seal clubbed by a 12 seed, which had the #2 pick in the NBA draft. Potayto potaato
FIFY
Also, that 12 seed lost a road game to Auburn by only 5. The same Auburn team that went to the Final Four and barely lost to the national champion.
So it's all spin to fit whatever narrative someone wants to drive.
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Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.
I guess I just have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
How about if you respect the guy because of how hard he works, his results and how he represents the university. How he got there isn’t relevant.
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Right, would have been better to say would Wardle still have been here after 4 years.
Absolutely. 100%, no doubt he would have still been here.
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I cannot believe that Brian Wardle's name is mentioned in a MU HC thread. Seriously, I hope no one wants him to be our coach or even pretend he is our coach.
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Thanks Brew I knew someone would have more good examples of both kinds off the top of their head.
I guess I just have a lot more respect for the guy that squeezes on a sweaty rumpled wristband so he could visit one more recruit. Wojo has been handed all the opportunities to be a successful high major coach, I would argue that even the Brass forebearance with him is based on his lineage. Would Brian Wardle still be here if we hired him instead of Wojo 5 years ago and he had posted the exact same results?
So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
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I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.
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Hope you're right, Brew, but I think that expecting a lot.
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I agree with TAMU that Wardle would still be here. Two years of rebuild followed by NCAA/NIT/NCAA with the best season the most recent would keep almost anyone in their job.
I try to be hard but fair on Wojo. A lot of what he's done and hasn't done has been frustrating, but the trend is up. If next year is a 4-seed or better with at least 1 NCAA win and there's not a huge dropoff after as we reload with a sold class, it may not be at the pace we want but the direction will keep him safe.
4 or better? Wow--I hope you're right.
I fear that this upcoming season and continued scrutiny of Wojo will be solely linked to winning one NCAA game--right or wrong. That game in March has been already been mentioned numerous times on scoop in June and July.
The weight of winning that potential game is substantial.
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As much as I'm critical of some of Wojo's decisions, I think the general national consensus on our 2019-20 team is underrating this team. I saw a recent comparison to last year's Purdue team and I think that's a very good one. Howard plays the Carsen Edwards role and while we lost a lot (as did Purdue last year) we are experienced and might be even deeper. And frankly, after losing the Hausers, any NCAA bid will probably be enough, even without a NCAA win. Not because of Wojo's Duke connections or reputation but because that will be 3/4 years in the NCAAs and 4 straight years with postseason play. Even a small step back would be allowed. We won't like it, but the administration will accept it.
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The difference with the Hausers leaving is the 'knowns.' With them, the whole team was known. The predicted rotations were so deep that the question was who was going to cede their minutes to KM. Who was going to leave due to lack of projected minutes? Cain and Anim?
Then 65 minutes walked out the door. And everyone else stayed. And now there are some 'unknowns'. But there is still talent and potential. This is a long way of saying that I agree with bc77 that the 19-20 team may be currently undervalued.
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The difference with the Hausers leaving is the 'knowns.' With them, the whole team was known. The predicted rotations were so deep that the question was who was going to cede their minutes to KM. Who was going to leave due to lack of projected minutes? Cain and Anim?
Then 65 minutes walked out the door. And everyone else stayed. And now there are some 'unknowns'. But there is still talent and potential. This is a long way of saying that I agree with bc77 that the 19-20 team may be currently undervalued.
My consistent position is the team is going to be very strong this year. Better team chemistry and more athletic. Looking forward to great things from this group of kids.
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So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.
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I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.
But isn’t it true at the college and pro level in football that the assistant coach of offense or defense (the coordinator) is often fired and the head coach survives just fine.
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But isn’t it true at the college and pro level in football that the assistant coach of offense or defense (the coordinator) is often fired and the head coach survives just fine.
Yes they tend to get thrown under the bus first .
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So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
I think being an assistant at Duke is a lay up compared to being one at Cleveland St or Fordham. Ask 500 D1 assistant coaches and I'd guess 500 would agree.
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My consistent position is the team is going to be very strong this year. Better team chemistry and more athletic. Looking forward to great things from this group of kids.
I agree with this analysis.
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I respect your opinion but I could not disagree more. Anyone who has been an assistant and a head coach of any sport will tell you there is a world of difference moving into the head spot. Heck, if an assistant 'effs' up at any program everyone blames the head coach for having them on the staff. I consider myself a passionate sports fan but I could not tell you the name of one assistant for Duke, Alabama football, Notre Dame football, the New England Patriots or the Golden State Warriors.
Also, the track record of Duke assistants as head coaches supports the point that it is not a great place to become a great head coach.
The track record of most tracks to get high major head coaching gigs isn't great. Most of them are eventually fired. The reason you see more successful high major coaches who were originally coaches elsewhere is because the vast majority of high major coaches took that route versus the high major assistant route.
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So, being in the pressure cooker and constant spotlight at Duke is easier than, say, coaching at Cleveland State or Fordham? You'd rather recruit against Kentucky, UNC and Kansas than Siena and Coastal Carolina?
There are advantages and disadvantages either way, but everything done at Duke is done under intense scrutiny and immense expectations. You eff up, at Duke and it's on Sportscenter. You eff up at Kent State, it might not make the local newspaper.
If you think that's an easier path than coaching at a low or mid-major, I'm going to disagree.
Everything Coach K does at Duke is done under immense scrutiny and expectations. The same just isn’t true for his assistants, and that goes for all assistants at all college basketball programs. The only time you hear about college assistants is when the big name head coach throws them under the bus for recruiting violations.
Also, at Duke, they can cherry pick the top 25 players every year. UK, Kansas, Arizona, etc. only have so many open scholarships to give. If Duke misses on one top kid, they can just get another. No big whoop. I’d say it’s way harder to recruit at a program on Marquette’s level where you’re competing with 100 other schools for those top 30-100 kids. And programs lower than that? You’re in a dog fight for whatever’s left over.
Being an assistant at Duke is candy.
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I'm sure that all the different types of jobs have their own unique sets of challenges. I prefer head coaches from successful smaller programs because they know the pressures of the big seat that don't come with the assistant job no matter where you are. Sure, you scrap for recruits, but you also know how to manage your resources, rather than being a managed resource. You know how to work refs as opposed to just watching your boss take on that task. You have to be the lead dealing with administration, boosters, professors rather than someone who is delegated.
In addition, most of the successful head coaches at the mid-major level also have experience as assistants at various levels. Many will have been high-major assistants like Wojo, virtually all will have been an assistant somewhere.
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Mediocre D from Wojo, hey?
https://twitter.com/mucoachjohnson/status/1151809808292618240?s=21
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Mediocre D from Wojo, hey?
https://twitter.com/mucoachjohnson/status/1151809808292618240?s=21
Pretty sure that's Barack Obama's nephew. Despite Craig Robinson taking a post in NY with the Knicks, the family has stayed back in MKE.
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Mediocre D from Wojo, hey?
https://twitter.com/mucoachjohnson/status/1151809808292618240?s=21
Looked like a Hauser. (hey, they are gone)
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
Or the next can't miss mid major coach.
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
I agree. If Wojo had done the same rebuild at Temple, Vandy, or Richmond as he did here, he'd be a great target. Instead, he cut his teeth here so we just have to hope the next five are better than the last five & he continues to grow as a coach.
He'll still be criticized when it's warranted, and probably sometimes when it isn't, but just keep the trend line pointed up.
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
Yes sir. Need to stick it out more and hope that he has success on the recruiting trail so that he will jot get frustrated and leave after his next good year.
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Lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on here.
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I agree. If Wojo had done the same rebuild at Temple, Vandy, or Richmond as he did here, he'd be a great target. Instead, he cut his teeth here so we just have to hope the next five are better than the last five & he continues to grow as a coach.
He'll still be criticized when it's warranted, and probably sometimes when it isn't, but just keep the trend line pointed up.
Yup, which is why I don’t get the cut him loose argument especially when it is almost certain we are going to get another assistant.
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Lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on here.
Tell me this admin will back up the Brinks truck for a successful Power 5 coach and I'm all in on moving on. Otherwise, I'm just not ready to watch the last 5 years again for the next 5 years.
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
This is a really clear voice of reason. I will take it a step further, which a select few will see as unreasonable...we were all infinitesimally close to (and an insurrection short of) being joyfully satisfied with the progress of Wojo and his WarriorEagles. Even the Zen-Master himself, Phil Jackson, would have had trouble righting that chemistry ship. Your post, along with Herman’s potion motion (chemistry/athleticism) should set the tone for our “lens” of viewing this season.
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I think being an assistant at Duke is a lay up compared to being one at Cleveland St or Fordham. Ask 500 D1 assistant coaches and I'd guess 500 would agree.
Might be an easier job when Fordham gets that BE invite, amiright?!
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There's a part of me that thinks Wojo will be a much better and much different coach at his next stop. It's also why I'm kind of willing to give him a few more years. He needed years 1-5 to learn the gig. I am not happy at all with the results but unless we bring in a head coach with serious bonafides, the option of letting Wojo find his voice here appeals to me more than starting over with the next Hot Assistant of the Year. I'm sick of training wheels.
well stated lens man. compared to what's out there right now, keeping wojo for another year...or 2 if he shows some definitive progress is our best position. definitive progress is not only in the W/L however-there needs to be that gut feeling thing as well. i'm not saying if we go .500 and feel a little fuzzy that wojo is our man, but when we see it, we will know it.
the one guy i've had on my radar though and have mentioned in the past-ben mccollum is going to be a superstar somewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_McCollum
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Yup, which is why I don’t get the cut him loose argument especially when it is almost certain we are going to get another assistant.
Cheeks/Brew/Lens all have the same solid point. I think sticking with Wojo is the best option for MU long term. Even down years won't make us a worse place to be for any future coach. We're a Big East team which is great competition to tout when you are recruiting. Wojo is still a big name. The facilities are awesome. Very solid university.
The downside of losing Wojo is if he indeed gets better, it confirms us as a stepping stone for the next 15 years. I would rather he stay here and make his mark as the next Al, and not go someplace else to be the next big name. There is a lot here for him from a reputation standpoint, by staying at Marquette. Great basketball city, great program on the upswing, and he's starting to settle in. Once he starts pulling in the bigger recruits, we become a serious option for those looking at KU, UK and UNC.
I do think his experience at Duke was significantly different in that recruiting, as stated several times, is easier at Duke. The top 25 players all consider Duke. It's got it's own exit ramp into the NBA. Our players earn it the old fashioned way for the most part. They have to earn it. He's also not coaching kids with god given talent. They're slightly less than that and have to work for it, and he has to find the ones who are almost there, and have the urgency and ability to learn. That said, he wasn't what I'd call talented as a player, just had a ton of drive an heart (I competitively hated him as a player). In all my years of going from job to job, it takes most people a solid 2 years to figure it out, and at least another two to get good at it. Effort will get you through the first couple years.
These next three years will be telling. I personally don't want to see MU hire a rising assistant, only to watch them go to a perceived better program (love him or not, Crean). I seriously don't see MU spending millions up front for a big name who might be looking for a great place to retire from. I like riding this one until it's clearly wrong. We're very far from that.
Our current team is very different and will be a serious coaching challenge. I think we're a lot faster, and just might be more physical if Ed moves the 4 successfully. It should be a fun year, but some losses. I'm hoping for a six bid minimum, 4 would be stellar.
One thing I liked about Wojo the day he showed up. He could have left Duke anytime for a big school 5 years before. He waited for a quality academic institution that was basketball first. Someplace with a tradition. He's comfortable with that. He was never hiding under Coach K. That loyalty might have gotten him hired as an assistant, but performance is what promoted him to Coach K's number one guy.
He's definitely a quality leader. My belief is a lot of us will look back at the negative comments WE said, and regret them.
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Cheeks/Brew/Lens all have the same solid point. I think sticking with Wojo is the best option for MU long term. Even down years won't make us a worse place to be for any future coach. We're a Big East team which is great competition to tout when you are recruiting. Wojo is still a big name. The facilities are awesome. Very solid university.
The downside of losing Wojo is if he indeed gets better, it confirms us as a stepping stone for the next 15 years. I would rather he stay here and make his mark as the next Al, and not go someplace else to be the next big name. There is a lot here for him from a reputation standpoint, by staying at Marquette. Great basketball city, great program on the upswing, and he's starting to settle in. Once he starts pulling in the bigger recruits, we become a serious option for those looking at KU, UK and UNC.
I do think his experience at Duke was significantly different in that recruiting, as stated several times, is easier at Duke. The top 25 players all consider Duke. It's got it's own exit ramp into the NBA. Our players earn it the old fashioned way for the most part. They have to earn it. He's also not coaching kids with god given talent. They're slightly less than that and have to work for it, and he has to find the ones who are almost there, and have the urgency and ability to learn. That said, he wasn't what I'd call talented as a player, just had a ton of drive an heart (I competitively hated him as a player). In all my years of going from job to job, it takes most people a solid 2 years to figure it out, and at least another two to get good at it. Effort will get you through the first couple years.
These next three years will be telling. I personally don't want to see MU hire a rising assistant, only to watch them go to a perceived better program (love him or not, Crean). I seriously don't see MU spending millions up front for a big name who might be looking for a great place to retire from. I like riding this one until it's clearly wrong. We're very far from that.
Our current team is very different and will be a serious coaching challenge. I think we're a lot faster, and just might be more physical if Ed moves the 4 successfully. It should be a fun year, but some losses. I'm hoping for a six bid minimum, 4 would be stellar.
One thing I liked about Wojo the day he showed up. He could have left Duke anytime for a big school 5 years before. He waited for a quality academic institution that was basketball first. Someplace with a tradition. He's comfortable with that. He was never hiding under Coach K. That loyalty might have gotten him hired as an assistant, but performance is what promoted him to Coach K's number one guy.
He's definitely a quality leader. My belief is a lot of us will look back at the negative comments WE said, and regret them.
Pure Stockholm Syndrome.
Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.
My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.
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Pure Stockholm Syndrome.
Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.
My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.
Herman - I don't normally respond to folks who dump (Stockholm Syndrome) on me, but I do have a question pertaining the remainder of your post. First, I understand your frustration, but have a leadership question. Is Coach K a great leader? The reason I ask, is in my years of working with great leaders, they always surrounded themselves with good leaders as well. Personally, I like to hire people who have the potential to replace me. The best leaders always seem to have guys that are great leaders or learn to be great leaders in a short period. The fact Wojo lasted so long under a legend has me believing we got a good hire. Just wondering about your thoughts on why Coach K would have stuck with him (and promote him) for so long if he is that bad?
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Pure Stockholm Syndrome.
Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.
My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.
VA Tech flirted with Wojo. Wojo didn't return their attention.
Who makes up the long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job? Cause last time there was only one on the list....and he was running screaming from his current job.
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I think we should hire Herman as our next Coach. If we are not in the NCAAs every year and have not won a National Championship in say year 4 or even 5 we fire him.
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Pure Stockholm Syndrome.
Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job. This is a high paying Big East job with incredible physical assets.
My sincere hope is that MU does well enough this year so he gets hired away.
His flirtation with VA tech showed there is some takers out there.
Assuming Wojo would get offered another big job and leave, how does a program that has had its last three head coaches (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) poached by other programs speak to the "high paying Big East job" with "incredible physical assets"? That doesn't really speak to that narrative.
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Herman - I don't normally respond to folks who dump (Stockholm Syndrome) on me, but I do have a question pertaining the remainder of your post. First, I understand your frustration, but have a leadership question. Is Coach K a great leader? The reason I ask, is in my years of working with great leaders, they always surrounded themselves with good leaders as well. Personally, I like to hire people who have the potential to replace me. The best leaders always seem to have guys that are great leaders or learn to be great leaders in a short period. The fact Wojo lasted so long under a legend has me believing we got a good hire. Just wondering about your thoughts on why Coach K would have stuck with him (and promote him) for so long if he is that bad?
Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.
The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .
Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level.
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VA Tech flirted with Wojo. Wojo didn't return their attention.
You shure bout dat?
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You shure bout dat?
Yes
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You shure bout dat?
Are you sworn to secrecy?
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Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.
The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .
Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level.
I'm not saying that Wojo has it one way or any other but I 100% remember buzz saying things along the lines of "play angry" the bottom line is you've never like Wojo and it's ok to say that but using something like play angry comment as rationale, when we know that the legit timeout conversations aren't broadcast and we've seen it with buzz, is just poor evidence.
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I'm not saying that Wojo has it one way or any other but I 100% remember buzz saying things along the lines of "play angry" the bottom line is you've never like Wojo and it's ok to say that but using something like play angry comment as rationale, when we know that the legit timeout conversations aren't broadcast and we've seen it with buzz, is just poor evidence.
No kidding. I've seen a version of "play angry" during inside the huddle at one time or another from every Big East coach and from a lot of top coaches, I can specifically think of a time I heard it from Izzo. It's a common coachism.
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No kidding. I've seen a version of "play angry" during inside the huddle at one time or another from every Big East coach and from a lot of top coaches, I can specifically think of a time I heard it from Izzo. It's a common coachism.
If assaulting a player is a version of trying to get someone to play angry, Izzo definitely qualifies after last year.
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Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?
A. Correct.
Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?
A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!
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I think he and his staff have done a nice job developing guys, and the recruiting has been solid. But the game coaching is where he loses me. Consistently lacks a counter move to any adjustments the opposition makes, and I think his teams come out tight because he's wound too damn tight.
I hope he figures it out, but I remain very skeptical that he can do much better than what we've seen over the first five years.
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Coach K is a great leader , as his record shows. That said, having worked,partnered and advised with many successful leaders myself, it is not axiomatic that they surround themselves with great leaders. Many times they surround themselves with stuffed corporate shirt types as buffers. My thesis on Coach Wojo is that he falls into the Corporate brown noser type. It is where his highest and best comfort level is. That skill set may be valuable in certain circumstances but in a merit based world like college basketball those guys always gets exposed in the end.
The video of Wojo screaming at the young guys to " Play Angry " before the defenestration administered by Murray State was a perfect audio visual of his lack of true leadership ability. Leadership ,Motivational ability whatever you want to call it, is just not Wojo's best skill set .
Wojo is good enough to keep us where we are at, but does not have the Je Ne Sai Quoi that can take us to the next level.
I don't see any brown noser in him, personally. I also have never been around him, so I might be a poor judge there. I fail to see why Coach K would have kept a brown noser around. They don't last long in the presence of demanding people. That is probably my best point.
As to playing angry? They were pretty passive. They needed a butt chewing, but we don't know what is said in the real huddles that don't have cameras attached. We don't know what is said at halftime. It's all hearsay.
Love to know what your Je ne sais quoi is supposed to be. Sounds mysterious and something we won't know about at hiring time. I have to agree to disagree for now. Hope it's you and not me that gets to eat crow down the road. :)
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Wojo is not a good leader and there would be a long list of very qualified head coaches willing to take the job.
I didn't realize you were so anti-Stan and anti-Killings. Wojo is the leader that hired them and is ultimately responsible for every player they recruited.
You can criticize coaching decisions, even to some extent player management, but every aspect of those things that owes the slightest bit of credit to the assistants is 100% on the guy that hired and continues to lead them.
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I don't see any brown noser in him, personally. I also have never been around him, so I might be a poor judge there. I fail to see why Coach K would have kept a brown noser around. They don't last long in the presence of demanding people. That is probably my best point.
As to playing angry? They were pretty passive. They needed a butt chewing, but we don't know what is said in the real huddles that don't have cameras attached. We don't know what is said at halftime. It's all hearsay.
Love to know what your Je ne sais quoi is supposed to be. Sounds mysterious and something we won't know about at hiring time. I have to agree to disagree for now. Hope it's you and not me that gets to eat crow down the road. :)
As long as MU does well I will gladly eat crow.
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Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?
A. Correct.
Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?
A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!
Well done.
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I didn't realize you were so anti-Stan and anti-Killings. Wojo is the leader that hired them and is ultimately responsible for every player they recruited.
You can criticize coaching decisions, even to some extent player management, but every aspect of those things that owes the slightest bit of credit to the assistants is 100% on the guy that hired and continues to lead them.
As you know I love love love Stan. Would be delighted if he were our head coach . I have consistently given Wojo credit for the work he has done on the recruiting front, and obviously Stan and Killings are part of that credit.
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I think he and his staff have done a nice job developing guys, and the recruiting has been solid. But the game coaching is where he loses me. Consistently lacks a counter move to any adjustments the opposition makes, and I think his teams come out tight because he's wound too damn tight.
I hope he figures it out, but I remain very skeptical that he can do much better than what we've seen over the first five years.
Honestly, I feel the reverse. I think he is overrated as a recruiter and underrated as a game coach. He started by making a big splash with Henry but the rest of that class was meh. 2016 was his best class for sure. Since then none of the classes have wowed me. 2017 all solid recruits but I don't see any potential all conference players there. 2018 was a class of 1 and that 1 was a current players younger brother. 2019 was a lot of swings and misses with one potential diamond in the rough. Symir's reclass bolsters the 2019 class so we'll see how it turns out. 2020 is really make or break for him recruiting wise IMHO.
His game coaching on the other hand has featured some of the best offenses we've seen at Marquette. His out of timeout plays have consistently been among the most efficient on both offense and defense. We saw Marquette come back from many second half deficits to win last season which speaks to his ability to adjust. Also, while we have seen major issues every year, we often see these issues get corrected in the offseason (worst to first defense in Big East for example).
Don't get me wrong, I don' think he's a horrible recruiter or a genius game coach...I just see his strengths and weaknesses differently than you
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Q. So you say Coach Wojo isn't a good leader?
A. Correct.
Q. But you can't state a specific leadership quality or qualities that he lacks?
A. He doesn't have the je ne sais quoi, as the French say -- "I don't know what." But whatever it is, it's critically important. And Wojo absolutely, most definitely, 100% doesn't have it. No question whatsoever.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Stockholm syndrome! Stockholm syndrome!
If you're looking for an example, look no further than the Hauser situation. Wojo has/had been around the Hauser family probably more than any other family. he had TONS of time to get to know the type of person Joey was. At the end of the day, Wojo evaluated Joey and asked him to join the MU team.
Wojo (the leader) then could not manage a bunch of strong personalities and ended up losing control of his team. Examples of this include the losing streak to end the season, fights in the locker room and on the plane home, Letters written to the coaching staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i bet coaches like Izzo, Williams, Bennett, and coach K do not have these things going on. Maybe one of them, but not all... at the same time.
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I'm sure that all the different types of jobs have their own unique sets of challenges. I prefer head coaches from successful smaller programs because they know the pressures of the big seat that don't come with the assistant job no matter where you are. Sure, you scrap for recruits, but you also know how to manage your resources, rather than being a managed resource. You know how to work refs as opposed to just watching your boss take on that task. You have to be the lead dealing with administration, boosters, professors rather than someone who is delegated.
The 2 coaches that ran the worst programs at MU in the last 40 years came in as head coaches from smaller programs; Dukiet - who was in over his head from day one, and Deane - who certainly was willing to settle for mediocrity by thinking REACHING the NCAA tournament every other year was the acceptable.
The coaches that ran 2 of the best programs, were long time assistants at one university for an extended length of time; O'Neil and Crean.
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And frankly, after losing the Hausers, any NCAA bid will probably be enough, even without a NCAA win.
Say what?
I sure as heck hope not.
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Yes. I can't think of a single coach who was fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament without an off the court scandal. I'm sure it's happened in the history of the NCAA but I'm 99% sure it hasn't happened in the 2000s.
You can be frustrated all you want with the results, it's your right as a fan. But the reality is that Wojo isn't currently close to the hot seat. To everyone besides a vocal minority of Marquette fans, he is one of the better young coaches in college basketball.
Agree he is not close to the hot seat given our administration. One of the better young coaches? I would say you are very kind.
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Agree he is not close to the hot seat given our administration. One of the better young coaches? I would say you are very kind.
He was on the list of nominees for coach of the year last year. And Marcus92 (IIRC) did some analysis that showed Wojos winning % is one of the best for coaches with 5 years experience or less. I think only Chris Beard was better
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If he had the exact same record at a mid major, folks here would want MU to hire him.
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If you're looking for an example, look no further than the Hauser situation. Wojo has/had been around the Hauser family probably more than any other family. he had TONS of time to get to know the type of person Joey was. At the end of the day, Wojo evaluated Joey and asked him to join the MU team.
Wojo (the leader) then could not manage a bunch of strong personalities and ended up losing control of his team. Examples of this include the losing streak to end the season, fights in the locker room and on the plane home, Letters written to the coaching staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i bet coaches like Izzo, Williams, Bennett, and coach K do not have these things going on. Maybe one of them, but not all... at the same time.
This is very fair criticism. It’s something he hopefully learns from.
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Easy to criticize with platitudes and cliches. When asked for evidence, most people can't show their work.
Don't like the guy? Fine. That's totally acceptable.
But to make a bunch of demeaning statements because of your biased stance is obnoxious, at best.
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Have you met the internet?
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If you're looking for an example, look no further than the Hauser situation. Wojo has/had been around the Hauser family probably more than any other family. he had TONS of time to get to know the type of person Joey was. At the end of the day, Wojo evaluated Joey and asked him to join the MU team.
Wojo (the leader) then could not manage a bunch of strong personalities and ended up losing control of his team. Examples of this include the losing streak to end the season, fights in the locker room and on the plane home, Letters written to the coaching staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i bet coaches like Izzo, Williams, Bennett, and coach K do not have these things going on. Maybe one of them, but not all... at the same time.
You realize Al had fights in the locker room? He’s not alone, so have many coaches. You think Buzz had our team his last year....nope. There are some classic stories about Coach K dismissing some players....because he has the cache and talent to do that. MU and Wojo doesn’t, so comparing to coaches who have been around 20+ years isn’t appropriate. I’m sure we wish he did, but none of those guys with that kind of prestige are walking through MU’s doors ever again.
Going into this last year, people like Lenny and others were ripping on Bennett....he won a title this year on at least three games that literally could have gone either way with one possession. Razor’s edge on this stuff.
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Going into this last year, people like Lenny and others were ripping on Bennett....he won a title this year on at least three games that literally could have gone either way with one possession. Razor’s edge on this stuff.
Bennett had a record of great regular season success but needed NCAA tournament success to validate his place as one of D1's top coaches. Mission accomplished.
Wojo regular season results are mixed, his NCAA tournament results are abysmal - once favored, once a pick 'em, twice blown out by 19 and 21. Comparing him to Tony Bennett is a joke.
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Bennett had a record of great regular season success but needed NCAA tournament success to validate his place as one of D1's top coaches. Mission accomplished.
Wojo regular season results are mixed, his NCAA tournament results are abysmal - once favored, once a pick 'em, twice blown out by 19 and 21. Comparing him to Tony Bennett is a joke.
The only people who didn’t view Tony Bennett as anything but one of the top college basketball coaches in the country before the NCAA Tournament last year were clueless college basketball fans.
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If he had the exact same record at a mid major, folks here would want MU to hire him.
Are you high? Jfc
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Say what?
I sure as heck hope not.
I'm not saying I'd be happy, but if we're an 8-11 seed that's done before the first weekend is over, I don't think Wojo would be fired.
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Are you high? Jfc
Never.
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Bennett had a record of great regular season success but needed NCAA tournament success to validate his place as one of D1's top coaches. Mission accomplished.
Wojo regular season results are mixed, his NCAA tournament results are abysmal - once favored, once a pick 'em, twice blown out by 19 and 21. Comparing him to Tony Bennett is a joke.
Tony Bennett record was stellar prior to this last season.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/tony-bennett-1.html
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Yes
You would be 100% wrong.
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Honestly, I feel the reverse. I think he is overrated as a recruiter and underrated as a game coach. He started by making a big splash with Henry but the rest of that class was meh. 2016 was his best class for sure. Since then none of the classes have wowed me. 2017 all solid recruits but I don't see any potential all conference players there. 2018 was a class of 1 and that 1 was a current players younger brother. 2019 was a lot of swings and misses with one potential diamond in the rough. Symir's reclass bolsters the 2019 class so we'll see how it turns out. 2020 is really make or break for him recruiting wise IMHO.
His game coaching on the other hand has featured some of the best offenses we've seen at Marquette. His out of timeout plays have consistently been among the most efficient on both offense and defense. We saw Marquette come back from many second half deficits to win last season which speaks to his ability to adjust. Also, while we have seen major issues every year, we often see these issues get corrected in the offseason (worst to first defense in Big East for example).
Don't get me wrong, I don' think he's a horrible recruiter or a genius game coach...I just see his strengths and weaknesses differently than you
You and I 100% agree here. His recruiting thus far, for someone that came to MU with the reputation as a GREAT recruiter, and is well known throughout college basketball circles has been far below what I thought it would be to this point. Honestly, this was the one area I thought he would excel at, and kill it from the word go based on his reputation alone. That hasn't happened. That disappoints me because it was the main reason I was intrigued by him when they hired him. I thought recruiting at MU would instantly go up several levels from where it had been.
Also, as you state...his recruiting hasn't been awful by any stretch, but it hasn't been nearly good enough to sustain the level of success that we all want. This more than anything else I think is the reason that his first 5 years haven't been anything to write home about, his recruiting. It's lacking. I hope it gets better. Don't have a good vibe for how 2020 recruiting is going to end up. Don't think it ends up being nearly good enough. He'll fill the scholarships, and lots and lots of people will be giddy and say they really like the class based on potential, but I have a feeling that's all it will be...a class based on potential, without a real headliner, game changing recruit, which I think the class really needs to get to where we want MU to be. I hope I'm wrong, and he lands a spectacular class, but right now, I just don't see it, and don't have a good feeling about it.
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You would be 100% wrong.
Nope. Beware the rumor circle jerk.
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You and I 100% agree here. His recruiting thus far, for someone that came to MU with the reputation as a GREAT recruiter, and is well known throughout college basketball circles has been far below what I thought it would be to this point. Honestly, this was the one area I thought he would excel at, and kill it from the word go based on his reputation alone. That hasn't happened. That disappoints me because it was the main reason I was intrigued by him when they hired him. I thought recruiting at MU would instantly go up several levels from where it had been.
Also, as you state...his recruiting hasn't been awful by any stretch, but it hasn't been nearly good enough to sustain the level of success that we all want. This more than anything else I think is the reason that his first 5 years haven't been anything to write home about, his recruiting. It's lacking. I hope it gets better. Don't have a good vibe for how 2020 recruiting is going to end up. Don't think it ends up being nearly good enough. He'll fill the scholarships, and lots and lots of people will be giddy and say they really like the class based on potential, but I have a feeling that's all it will be...a class based on potential, without a real headliner, game changing recruit, which I think the class really needs to get to where we want MU to be. I hope I'm wrong, and he lands a spectacular class, but right now, I just don't see it, and don't have a good feeling about it.
Lol. No one is going to out recruit KO, TC, Buzz. The school recruits itself. We know what we’re gonna get. The question is, how you gonna coach em up.
Well Steve, how you gonna coach em up?
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It’s the off season and silly season is upon us.
Tony Bennett had SEVEN NCAA wins at UVA prior to this past season. He had THREE regular season ACC conference titles, one of the best conferences in the country. (spoiler alert he added a FOURTH regular season conference title, an NCAA title and 5 more NCAA wins, now TWELVE at UVA. What about his first 5 years? Regular season conference title and a sweet 16 were accomplished during that time as well.
What about the previous MU coach? He made FIVE NCAA’s in his first five seasons, winning EIGHT NCAA games during that time, as well as TWO regular season Big East titles.
Wojo has made 2 NCAA’s in his first five years. In those first round games, MU has lost both, by a combined THIRTY NINE points.
Expectations moving forward are much higher than the current, recent, or previous MU results under the current coach. To some Wojo haters, they will take strange joy in this and pile on. To some Wojo supporters, they will make excuses, bad mouth others etc...the bottom line is that it is what it is, .....meh.....thus far.
What does Wojo need to do to keep his job?
Make NCAA’s almost annually.
Win some NCAA tourney games sooner than later.
Compete for Big East titles and win one some time.
Have better conference tourney success.
Keep being competitive in high profile, and or rivalry games.
One year at a time. Expectation upcoming season is strong league finish, NCAA win(s), etc...the longer it goes the stronger the accountability.
Let’s hope for a great season and a great many year run. 👍
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It’s the off season and silly season is upon us.
Tony Bennett had SEVEN NCAA wins at UVA prior to this past season. He had THREE regular season ACC conference titles, one of the best conferences in the country. (spoiler alert he added a FOURTH regular season conference title, an NCAA title and 5 more NCAA wins, now TWELVE at UVA. What about his first 5 years? Regular season conference title and a sweet 16 were accomplished during that time as well.
What about the previous MU coach? He made FIVE NCAA’s in his first five seasons, winning EIGHT NCAA games during that time, as well as TWO regular season Big East titles.
Wojo has made 2 NCAA’s in his first five years. In those first round games, MU has lost both, by a combined THIRTY NINE points.
Expectations moving forward are much higher than the current, recent, or previous MU results under the current coach. To some Wojo haters, they will take strange joy in this and pile on. To some Wojo supporters, they will make excuses, bad mouth others etc...the bottom line is that it is what it is, .....meh.....thus far.
What does Wojo need to do to keep his job?
Make NCAA’s almost annually.
Win some NCAA tourney games sooner than later.
Compete for Big East titles and win one some time.
Have better conference tourney success.
Keep being competitive in high profile, and or rivalry games.
One year at a time. Expectation upcoming season is strong league finish, NCAA win(s), etc...the longer it goes the stronger the accountability.
Let’s hope for a great season and a great many year run. 👍
Reasonable synopsis of the situation. I have some minor disagreements, but they are minor. Although I was concerned about the way last season ended, followed by Hausershima, I'm rooting hard for the Warriors, and therefore rooting hard for Wojo to succeed. I hope he continues to improve as a coach, and is leading MU to greatness for years to come.
We are Marquette!
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Bennett had a record of great regular season success but needed NCAA tournament success to validate his place as one of D1's top coaches. Mission accomplished.
Wojo regular season results are mixed, his NCAA tournament results are abysmal - once favored, once a pick 'em, twice blown out by 19 and 21. Comparing him to Tony Bennett is a joke.
Favored by Vegas, which is meaningless and designed to draw money. A to. Of experts said Murray State was going to win. Who is comparing him to Bennett? Meanwhile, Bennett already had validation by anyone with grey matter without the latest run.
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Favored by Vegas, which is meaningless and designed to draw money. A to. Of experts said Murray State was going to win. Who is comparing him to Bennett? Meanwhile, Bennett already had validation by anyone with grey matter without the latest run.
Vegas lines basically mirror the spread between the two teams in predictive computer models (check Pomeroy, then Vegas - dead on or very close). They are NOT trying to draw even amounts of money, they are trying to set a line that makes the game a coin flip. If they do that over time they can't be beaten. If they did what you say (Guys, the data says Murray should beat Marquette by 5 (or 19, LOL)but let's make MU a 4 point favorite because we THINK that such a line might draw an even amount of money) professional gamers would destroy them. The fact that some "experts" picked Murray to beat us somehow mitigates our being blown out is laughable.
As for Bennet, as I said he had compiled a great regular season (and ACC tournament postseason) record. All he needed to move into the top echelon (K, Self, Williams, Cal, Wright) was NCAA tournament success. He moved from the 2nd rung to the top rung. Good for him.
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Vegas lines basically mirror the spread between the two teams in predictive computer models (check Pomeroy, then Vegas - dead on or very close). They are NOT trying to draw even amounts of money, they are trying to set a line that makes the game a coin flip. If they do that over time they can't be beaten. If they did what you say (Guys, the data says Murray should beat Marquette by 5 (or 19, LOL)but let's make MU a 4 point favorite because we THINK that such a line might draw an even amount of money) professional gamers would destroy them. The fact that some "experts" picked Murray to beat us somehow mitigates our being blown out is laughable.
As for Bennet, as I said he had compiled a great regular season (and ACC tournament postseason) record. All he needed to move into the top echelon (K, Self, Williams, Cal, Wright) was NCAA tournament success. He moved from the 2nd rung to the top rung. Good for him.
Oddsmakers are definitely not trying to make every game a "coin flip." If they were trying to do that there would never be any line movement outside of when they find out a player is going to miss a game, what effect things like weather might have on a game, etc. If they were trying to make every game a "coin flip" and no outside factors changed between when they set the line and when the game began there would be no need for them to move their line, they would stick with whatever they think makes the game a "coin flip" no matter how much money is going to either side. That's obviously not how it works as lines are constantly adjusted based on where the money is going. They're trying to get equal money on both sides. If Vegas gets an identical amount of money on both sides of a bet they are guaranteed to make 10% profit on all losing bet money.
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Oddsmakers are definitely not trying to make every game a "coin flip." If they were trying to do that there would never be any line movement outside of when they find out a player is going to miss a game, what effect things like weather might have on a game, etc. If they were trying to make every game a "coin flip" and no outside factors changed between when they set the line and when the game began there would be no need for them to move their line, they would stick with whatever they think makes the game a "coin flip" no matter how much money is going to either side. That's obviously not how it works as lines are constantly adjusted based on where the money is going. They're trying to get equal money on both sides. If Vegas gets an identical amount of money on both sides of a bet they are guaranteed to make 10% profit on all losing bet money.
Wrong. You do not understand Vegas. I'll explain when I have more time.
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Wrong. You do not understand Vegas. I'll explain when I have more time.
Can’t wait to hear it. Because that’s how it works.
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Oddsmakers are definitely not trying to make every game a "coin flip." If they were trying to do that there would never be any line movement outside of when they find out a player is going to miss a game, what effect things like weather might have on a game, etc. If they were trying to make every game a "coin flip" and no outside factors changed between when they set the line and when the game began there would be no need for them to move their line, they would stick with whatever they think makes the game a "coin flip" no matter how much money is going to either side. That's obviously not how it works as lines are constantly adjusted based on where the money is going. They're trying to get equal money on both sides. If Vegas gets an identical amount of money on both sides of a bet they are guaranteed to make 10% profit on all losing bet money.
OK, here's my best explanation. We'll use the NFL as an example since those games are where the vast majority of sport's gambling $ is wagered.
The initial line is set by a super algorithm, which uses predictive data. The goal is to produce a line that offers an even playing field or an equal chance to win for both favorite and underdog - not a "perceived" equal chance, a real one. Because money flows tend to go to favorites and some "public" teams (Cowboys, Packers, etc.) some casinos may slightly adjust their opening lines to reflect that (or not). The top (well known to Vegas) professional gamblers have computers too and the results of their input may indicate that the opening line is "off" by a point or two. Early action by pros well known to the casinos can and will move lines. Not to get 50/50 money, but to make the game a more accurate coin flip. So, barring injury or weather, most line moves come early, well before the public has picked a side. There are sites where you can track money flow in Vegas. Many (most?) of the games are lopsided in terms of $ wagers on the teams. It is not uncommon for 80% of the money to be on one side/team. But unless the smart/early money went the same way those lines won't have been adjusted at all.
Using another form of wagering may make this more clear. A roulette wheel has an equal amount of black and red numbers on which the ball can land. And 2 numbers that are neither red nor black. So when the casino pays you one for one for betting either red or black, they have a built in statistical edge. Every time the ball lands on green both red and black lose. Now, just because red and black have equal chances of winning doesn't mean the same amount of money will be bet on each. On any given roll, all or most of the wagers may be on one side and the house loses. Given a large enough sample size, though, the house can't lose.
The margin for error in sports betting is even greater (a whopping 10%!). If their data/algorithm is solid (the many sports books in Vegas are never more than .5 points apart on an NFL game) they can easily survive (and actually LOVE) those Sundays when the public gets "hot". Like a slot machine that surrenders a 2 million dollar payout it's cheap advertising to the suckers.
Bottom line. Would Vegas PREFER every game be a 50/50 handle? Sure. But the public's prejudice to favorites in general and to certain teams (and other dumb things the public does) makes it impossible in many cases to set a correct line AND to hope for equal action. If 80% of the public is willing to pay 10% to take one side of what their algorithm says is a coin flip, their response? Bring it on. Over time you can't win. And with the vast majority of people (heart bettors, bad money managers, Monday night get even folks, etc.) they are spot on.
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OK, here's my best explanation. We'll use the NFL as an example since those games are where the vast majority of sport's gambling $ is wagered.
The initial line is set by a super algorithm, which uses predictive data. The goal is to produce a line that offers an even playing field or an equal chance to win for both favorite and underdog - not a "perceived" equal chance, a real one. Because money flows tend to go to favorites and some "public" teams (Cowboys, Packers, etc.) some casinos may slightly adjust their opening lines to reflect that (or not). The top (well known to Vegas) professional gamblers have computers too and the results of their input may indicate that the opening line is "off" by a point or two. Early action by pros well known to the casinos can and will move lines. Not to get 50/50 money, but to make the game a more accurate coin flip. So, barring injury or weather, most line moves come early, well before the public has picked a side. There are sites where you can track money flow in Vegas. Many (most?) of the games are lopsided in terms of $ wagers on the teams. It is not uncommon for 80% of the money to be on one side/team. But unless the smart/early money went the same way those lines won't have been adjusted at all.
Using another form of wagering may make this more clear. A roulette wheel has an equal amount of black and red numbers on which the ball can land. And 2 numbers that are neither red nor black. So when the casino pays you one for one for betting either red or black, they have a built in statistical edge. Every time the ball lands on green both red and black lose. Now, just because red and black have equal chances of winning doesn't mean the same amount of money will be bet on each. On any given roll, all or most of the wagers may be on one side and the house loses. Given a large enough sample size, though, the house can't lose.
The margin for error in sports betting is even greater (a whopping 10%!). If their data/algorithm is solid (the many sports books in Vegas are never more than .5 points apart on an NFL game) they can easily survive (and actually LOVE) those Sundays when the public gets "hot". Like a slot machine that surrenders a 2 million dollar payout it's cheap advertising to the suckers.
Bottom line. Would Vegas PREFER every game be a 50/50 handle? Sure. But the public's prejudice to favorites in general and to certain teams (and other dumb things the public does) makes it impossible in many cases to set a correct line AND to hope for equal action. If 80% of the public is willing to pay 10% to take one side of what their algorithm says is a coin flip, their response? Bring it on. Over time you can't win. And with the vast majority of people (heart bettors, bad money managers, Monday night get even folks, etc.) they are spot on.
Good post. Vegas absolutely takes sides on certain games. You can see it with reverse line movement where the public is hammering one side and the line keeps creeping to that side's favor.
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This is one of those classic arguments here in which everyone has a bit of the truth. We recently met with VSIN, the sports betting network run by Brent Musburger’s son. More meetings to follow.
The sports books absolutely are trying to set odds for the general public that balances their risk on both sides so they can make money off the Vig.
And yes, it is also true that with today’s Sophistication of data, the books have to try and be ahead of the “sharps” as they will bet big on a line they deem as soft and opportunistic. Both are in play with oddsmaking, some more than other depending on the event, type of bet, etc.
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This is one of those classic arguments here in which everyone has a bit of the truth. We recently met with VSIN, the sports betting network run by Brent Musburger’s son. More meetings to follow.
The sports books absolutely are trying to set odds for the general public that balances their risk on both sides so they can make money off the Vig.
And yes, it is also true that with today’s Sophistication of data, the books have to try and be ahead of the “sharps” as they will bet big on a line they deem as soft and opportunistic. Both are in play with oddsmaking, some more than other depending on the event, type of bet, etc.
1. If Vegas has enough data to make lines that make the games true coin flips (or close to true coin flips) over time (given the 10% vig) they have no risk.
2. If Vegas makes lines in an attempt to guess which way the public will bet and then moves them every time the money flows become unbalanced they open themselves up to huge risk.
Vegas is in the business of managing risk. #1 is the most effective way they have found to do it.
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1. If Vegas has enough data to make lines that make the games true coin flips (or close to true coin flips) over time (given the 10% vig) they have no risk.
2. If Vegas makes lines in an attempt to guess which way the public will bet and then moves them every time the money flows become unbalanced they open themselves up to huge risk.
Vegas is in the business of managing risk. #1 is the most effective way they have found to do it.
you got it right that many times vegas will set a their line that sharps see/bet on and vegas will adjust their line accordingly before the public bets on it.
but vegas is not trying to set a line to make every game a "coin flip" and saying "bring it on" when 80% of the money goes to one side. vegas's algorithm set their line for super bowl 42 said ne -9.5. vegas also knew tom brady, bill bellichick, and 18-0 would bring in a crap ton of money on the ne patriots. so what did they set their line at? ne -13.5. why? theyre trying to balance the bets.
for some stony brook vs. grambling basketball game in december? sure vegas is trying to make it a "coin toss." but thats because theres not enough money going into that game.
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you got it right that many times vegas will set a their line that sharps see/bet on and vegas will adjust their line accordingly before the public bets on it.
but vegas is not trying to set a line to make every game a "coin flip" and saying "bring it on" when 80% of the money goes to one side. vegas's algorithm set their line for super bowl 42 said ne -9.5. vegas also knew tom brady, bill bellichick, and 18-0 would bring in a crap ton of money on the ne patriots. so what did they set their line at? ne -13.5. why? theyre trying to balance the bets.
for some stony brook vs. grambling basketball game in december? sure vegas is trying to make it a "coin toss." but thats because theres not enough money going into that game.
The Super Bowl may be the exception due to the massive amounts wagered. But regular season NFL games are heavily wagered and it is not uncommon for 80%+ of the action to be on one side.
I'll take your word on Super Bowl 42, but if the sports books really offered the Giants at 4 points better fair value every professional gambler pounded it. Recipe for disaster in any game other than an outlier like the one you cite.
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Back on the Ranch, I do hope Wojo has a very successful recruiting year.
I also expect we will be deeper than one-and-done and am hopeful we make it out of the first week of the NCAA. For Markus' sake as well as the seniors who have toiled so hard for so long.
If 2020 stinks -- or is mediocre -- and Wojo gets clocked again in the NCAA, then we really need to be asking, "is this all there is? Is this what we want?"
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Back on the Ranch, I do hope Wojo has a very successful recruiting year.
I also expect we will be deeper than one-and-done and am hopeful we make it out of the first week of the NCAA. For Markus' sake as well as the seniors who have toiled so hard for so long.
If 2020 stinks -- or is mediocre -- and Wojo gets clocked again in the NCAA, then we really need to be asking, "is this all there is? Is this what we want?"
Many Scoopers have been asking this for several years now, including last year after the Kansas loss. They temporarily ceased as we recorded win after win after win, but then he became stoopid again at season's end.
Unless we get to the Final Four (and maybe even then), there will be plenty of Scoopers asking the questions you pose.
Whether MU administration asks those same questions ... totally different story.
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"Dean Peterson: Yes, thank you, Anton. Now, folks, a 7 and 5 football season doesn't come cheap, and this is a fundraiser."
Everyone talking about 9-9 in conference like it would be some kind of accomplishment makes me recall this Simpsons gem.
But at least we can always look at our 2019 5 seed banner hanging from the rafters!
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"Dean Peterson: Yes, thank you, Anton. Now, folks, a 7 and 5 football season doesn't come cheap, and this is a fundraiser."
Everyone talking about 9-9 in conference like it would be some kind of accomplishment makes me recall this Simpsons gem.
But at least we can always look at our 2019 5 seed banner hanging from the rafters!
People look at the 9-9 11 seed from 2011 with rose glasses. And the reason is because of how hard the BE was. If we go 9-9 I'll happily wait to judge from the tournament