MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on July 18, 2019, 02:07:56 AM
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Reading the OT article on mid-major recruiting I finally realized why I feel an antagonism for Wojo's coaching and recruiting above and beyond what is really warranted by the results (he's been mediocre sure, but he hasn't been TERRIBLE).
But that's exactly what it is - Wojo is the epitome of the "mediocre white male privilege" trope. He's the guy who got into law school because his Dad was an alum and then was hired at a top firm where one of Dad's golfing buddies plays. Think about it - he was a good (great?) college BB player sure. But since then? Would he have been on K's bench for a zillion years had he not been a star at Duke? Sure he must have had some chops if K hired/kept him, but presumably others had equal/more. He got and kept that job because of his Duke playing pedigree.
Likewise, is there any chance he is considered/hired by us if he hadn't been on K's bench for those zillion years? He (of course) had no HC experience, but we took that Duke pedigree as a signal of his quality and worth despite the fact he had accomplished exactly nothing as a HC.
As a result, Wojo was able to walk into a high-major job as a first time coach. That's privilege - how many guys get to do that? At MU he has been given all he needs to succeed. Huge budget, great facilities, good conference affiliation, total institutional support. And what has he accomplished? Mediocrity.
Wojo has never had to slip on his assistant's wrist band at Peach Jam. Wojo hasn't had to drive himself in a rental car for 3 hours between recruiting sites. For all his floor-slapping, Wojo has never had to grind it out like a working-man mid-major coach. That forges mettle.
I always thought Buzz was shady as hell (and FWIW I think Wojo is probably a really clean and nice guy). But that said, for all his shtick, Buzz HAD gone the working man's route - sweeping the floors, working the grind at a mid-major, etc etc. And he delivered on the recruiting trail and the court. I'm sure some of you with encyclopedic CBB knowledge can quickly list out those high-major HCs that were "working men" vs. those that were born with a silver spoon (1st gig at high-major). But just a quick list:
Working man
Knight - Army
K - Army
Donovan - Marshall
Jay Wright - Hostra
Cooley - Fairfield
Straight to the pros
Boeheim
So based on my entirely unscientific sampling there might be something to this.
But I think this points to another issue - all of those guys that went the "working class" route - none of them really had HUGE success at the mid-major level. But what they did do was outperform their peers - because if you're at a mid-major slipping off wristbands there is no way you can compete with the results of the big-boys. Loyola's are flukes. But if you are consistently outperforming those who have the same resources and advantages as you (high conference finishes, comparatively high RPIs, etc.) then there's probably something to you.
So, when we do another coaching search I'll be totally in the camp of let's bring in the guys on lists like these:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2639716-ranking-the-best-mid-major-programs-in-college-basketball#slide6
that's where we'll find a winner.
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(https://www.iowaagribusinessradionetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/6359443246595527281092097913_grass_is_greener.jpg)
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this happens all throughout society. skin color has nothing to do with it. i wish people would stop with the "privilege" crap. it happens within each segment, it happens throughout. extending to all races. just one example of many-ulice payne has done very well. remember, it's not always what ya know but who ya know. doesn't matter what color your skin is. talented, smart, and successful people network and good things happen. success breeds success. i don't care what you look like if you're good at what you do
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Lol.
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This is an example of someone saying they didn’t get the job because of some unfair and undeserved opportunity that was just handed to someone. In this case it is totally off base to say Wojo didn’t earn it and Buzz did.
First off Buzz didn’t play high major basketball. Not only did he not play ball he didn’t attend a school with a high major program. Wojo put in all the effort to be highly recruited as a MCd AA. To be an above average player at a high major. To lead to team at critical moments. Buzz didn’t play. I wonder why Buzz has to take a different path.
Wojo had a four year interview process and got the job as a lower level assistant at Duke. Similar to Wardle and Diener at MU. During that interview the coach could see his decision making process and skills on the day to day basis. He worked his way up at Duke as others took jobs elsewhere. He had developed a very good reputation in the industry and many thought would be K’s replacement. He aligned himself to a mentor and made himself invaluable. He was the top assistant at the highest levels. Buzz took 13 years to get to a high major as an assistant as he had no basketball resume. Wojo worked 15 years as an assistant when he easily could have taken another job.
Coach K who you mention as starting low was a player at Army. Had one year at Indiana and then went 5 years at Army before he was named the head coach at Duke. Doesn’t seem like a tough road but if you notice he also had a playing career.
People who talk about what happened to them are the ones who complain about not getting an opportunity others make it happen.
Added: Coach K played for Bobby Knight. His first job was for Knight and then got the Army job with one year of head coaching. Your theory is off.
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this happens all throughout society. skin color has nothing to do with it. i wish people would stop with the "privilege" crap. it happens within each segment, it happens throughout. extending to all races. just one example of many-ulice payne has done very well. remember, it's not always what ya know but who ya know. doesn't matter what color your skin is. talented, smart, and successful people network and good things happen. success breeds success. i don't care what you look like if you're good at what you do
What about the dental hygienist at your practice who wanted to shave her head in solidarity with her friend who had cancer? You "suggested (very strongly)" to her that she shouldn't do it, so it seems like you cared what she looked like.
Also, if a male wanted to shave his head for the same reason, you wouldn't have forbidden it. That is an example (albeit a small one) of privilege.
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Thank you 1SE for confirming what I had already suspected about some of the Wojo animosity out there. A lot of it isn't based on results but based on the fact that he came from Duke.
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This topic will undoubtedly be full of well thought out positions, debated with reason and respect, and will result in Scoop Consensus where we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya at the end.
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I have said in the past that Wojo's success at Marquette will be determined by how well he is able to go beyond and build on his Duke heritage. Will he be able to learn what it takes to succeed when you are not Duke? And how he bounces back after failure or disappointment.
I think he is learning.
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I don't have a problem with Wojo coming from Duke or any sort of privilege. If a guy can coach, he can coach.
That being said, a theory that coaches who work their way up from the lower tiers to the higher tiers is appealing. As I (and others) have written, Wojo's MU teams are rarely better than the sum of their parts. He's not a magician making something from nothing.
A coach who has spent a chunk of time in tier 4-3-2 of D1 .. if they are climbing the ladder, they have a lot of experience making something from nothing. It's not everything a coach needs, but it's something.
MU (and all non-blue blood teams) need that magician. MU is rarely getting the McDonalds 5-star boys .. and have to improve the mostly 3 and 4 star guys MU can get to make noise.
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The initial post is basically a bunch of “what-if” questions that, if answered differently than the status quo would lead you to a different conclusion, eg, Wojo got where he was due to circumstances other than what he deserved. You can never prove otherwise because he did, in fact, go to Duke, spend 17 years on K’s bench and was offered a head coach job by a high major team.
Guess what? There are coaches with his pedigree that have both succeeded and failed, and there are coaches with no discernible pedigree that have both succeeded and failed. All it really tells us is that some coaches succeed and others fail. Brilliant reasoning, 1SE!
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this happens all throughout society. skin color has nothing to do with it. i wish people would stop with the "privilege" crap. it happens within each segment, it happens throughout. extending to all races. just one example of many-ulice payne has done very well. remember, it's not always what ya know but who ya know. doesn't matter what color your skin is. talented, smart, and successful people network and good things happen. success breeds success. i don't care what you look like if you're good at what you do
Good for you.
Others absolutely care about "what you look like"
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What about the dental hygienist at your practice who wanted to shave her head in solidarity with her friend who had cancer? You "suggested (very strongly)" to her that she shouldn't do it, so it seems like you cared what she looked like.
Also, if a male wanted to shave his head for the same reason, you wouldn't have forbidden it. That is an example (albeit a small one) of privilege.
I need to see this post.
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Tom Crean and Kevin O’Neill didn’t work their way up through the mid-major ranks.
Neither did Tom Izzo or Roy Williams.
Let’s not go too far down this line that sharing wristbands makes people better coaches.
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The initial post is basically a bunch of “what-if” questions that, if answered differently than the status quo would lead you to a different conclusion, eg, Wojo got where he was due to circumstances other than what he deserved. You can never prove otherwise because he did, in fact, go to Duke, spend 17 years on K’s bench and was offered a head coach job by a high major team.
Guess what? There are coaches with his pedigree that have both succeeded and failed, and there are coaches with no discernible pedigree that have both succeeded and failed. All it really tells us is that some coaches succeed and others fail. Brilliant reasoning, 1SE!
This is really well said
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I need to see this post.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56569.msg1040491#msg1040491
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Frankly, I don’t care if Wojo started off as John Wooden’s son or night watchman at the old Arena. I just want that bland jock to win some freaking NCAA Tournament games and get the program back to where Crean and Buzz had it. And be held to the same standards those two were.
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I don't care if you're blue, green, black, or red. Don't look for government or anyone else to take care of you. Have some self-worth and take care of yourself and your family.
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Frankly, I don’t care if Wojo started off as John Wooden’s son or night watchman at the old Arena. I just want that bland jock to win some freaking NCAA Tournament games and get the program back to where Crean and Buzz had it. And be held to the same standards those two were.
I think this is a good place to end the discussion. Spot on.
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I don't care if you're blue, green, black, or red. Don't look for government or anyone else to take care of you. Have some self-worth and take care of yourself and your family.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/h4Z6RfuQycdiM/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115d307c7f4e7851334dbe1da9&rid=giphy.gif)
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I don't care if you're blue, green, black, or red. Don't look for government or anyone else to take care of you. Have some self-worth and take care of yourself and your family.
Now the real thread can start.
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Good for you.
Others absolutely care about "what you look like"
Yup....a lot of irony here...not directed at you....but your last line applies to ALL groups. Fill out an application, the census next year, etc....lots of people want to know what people look like including employers, govt, educators, etc.
As for the thread start, it made me chuckle.
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So many bad takes - so little time (desire?) to moderate.