MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: fjm on May 31, 2019, 08:01:47 PM
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Boom. Reclassified. He’ll be on the team.
https://twitter.com/bensteelemjs/status/1134625621630496768?s=21
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Nice, now curious if he red shirts because of the Howard, Koby Greg Dexter backup or if he is ok getting low minutes his freshman year.
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Nice, now curious if he red shirts because of the Howard, Koby Greg Dexter backup or if he is ok getting low minutes his freshman year.
I’d see dexter RS’ing. But that’s just me.
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I’d see dexter RS’ing. But that’s just me.
I think one of them is for sure going to
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So far the magic white board is 2/2. Jayce Johnson first, Symir second. If he redshirts it will be 3/3.
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So far the magic white board is 2/2. Jayce Johnson first, Symir second. If he redshirts it will be 3/3.
But it missed on what seemingly was Shakur Juiston :(
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I’d see dexter RS’ing. But that’s just me.
I believe you're Right. I think Wojo will be looking to increase offense.
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But it missed on what seemingly was Shakur Juiston :(
Right on Cue.
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Dexter or Symir will redshirt. Great to have Symir on campus a year early, though. Can’t see this as anything but good.
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Symir is too high quality of a player to redshirt. No offense to Dexter but he wouldn’t be taking any of symir’s minutes.
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Might be the only true point on the team. Going to play overseas with the team, can try lots of different line -ups, more talent the better.
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Somewhere eyeore (guru) isnt happy
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Somewhere eyeore (guru) isnt happy
LOL why wouldn't I be happy?? I hope like hell he's a major needle mover for MU this year, but not many Freshman are, that's reality.
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It is fortuitous that MU is going to Spain this summer. If everything had remained status quo, I would not have been as interested in the basketball that was played, merely that nobody got hurt. Now, with Symir, Dexter, Jayce, Koby, as well as the return of Greg and Bailey, Cain, and Ed expanding the positions they play, it is perfect timing and a great opportunity to see how the rotations and different personnel groups pan out.
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It is fortuitous that MU is going to Spain this summer. If everything had remained status quo, I would not have been as interested in the basketball that was played, merely that nobody got hurt. Now, with Symir, Dexter, Jayce, Koby, as well as the return of Greg and Bailey, Cain, and Ed expanding the positions they play, it is perfect timing and a great opportunity to see how the rotations and different personnel groups pan out.
Let’s also see how Ike recovers. Spain will be an early indicator. He’s not going to be big minute guy next season if healthy, but it would be great to get him on the floor in Spain.
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There's got to be some way that wee willie can whine about this seemingly good news, right?
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He doesn’t whine! He only makes insulting, derogatory, idiotic comments!
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Fantastic news. First, because Symir stock is rising and we close the deal now. He can come in now and settle into his role.
Second, there is now flexibility to either a )red shirt Dexter. I saw Dexter play live this year and he is definitely a Big East type of athlete, however, if he had a year to work with Brett Nelson on his shot he could become a major force or b) move Dexter to the wing. From what I could see Dexter is about the same size as Sacar and could be very effective defensively in that role. Kid has very long legs.
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Welcome Mr. Torrence. Looking forward to seeing you get to work!
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Looking forward to this research report on Symir.
https://twitter.com/matthaus_CNY/status/1134608959871098880
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Hopefully, Symir is cleared to pay on the foreign trip. I think it was Haanif that was not cleared in time by NCAA to play on our last foreign trip.
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Wait! Does this mean we will finally have someone younger than Markus?
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Wait! Does this mean we will finally have someone younger than Markus?
i mean markus was 17 as a freshman ;D
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i mean markus was 17 as a freshman ;D
Hopefully, Symir has more than one eye!
Seriously, glad to have Symir on the team and I also hope he can play in Spain.
Stuff happens. The numbers issue (if there is one) will work itself out.
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Looking forward to this research report on Symir.
https://twitter.com/matthaus_CNY/status/1134608959871098880
https://cnycentral.com/sports/content/symir-torrence-celebrates-marquette-commitment-with-signature-in-front-of-family-friends
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He doesn’t whine! He only makes insulting, derogatory, idiotic comments!
Ifioyiv may be the one word you are an expert on. First hand knowledge is good I'm really a badger fan?
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Ifioyiv may be the one word you are an expert on. First hand knowledge is good I'm really a badger fan?
Was this terrible typing or an ironic way to say idiotic?
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Was this terrible typing or an ironic way to say idiotic?
FIFY
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FIFY
Lol changed it myself
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I'm not sure how a team that could be on the bubble wouldn't be able to find a use for a very athletic, 4-star recruit who had been offered by Virginia, Maryland and Washington.
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So far the magic white board is 2/2. Jayce Johnson first, Symir second. If he redshirts it will be 3/3.
I thought the whiteboard had him coming in mid year and redshirting.
Anyway zero chance he redshirts imo. I doubt anyone does sans injury.
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That’s what I thought as well.
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https://cnycentral.com/sports/content/symir-torrence-celebrates-marquette-commitment-with-signature-in-front-of-family-friends
What a tremendous attitude Symir has! You can just hear the gratitude, hunger, and desire to be the best. Humility with desire to be an elite player.
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Very exciting. Between him and Koby, we should have some guys take the ball handling pressure off Markus.
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https://cnycentral.com/sports/content/symir-torrence-celebrates-marquette-commitment-with-signature-in-front-of-family-friends
Whoever wrote this article doesn't understand how the ACT and SAT tests work.
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I thought the whiteboard had him coming in mid year and redshirting.
Anyway zero chance he redshirts imo. I doubt anyone does sans injury.
Forget who took original pic of whiteboard. Kudos to that MU fan.
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I thought the whiteboard had him coming in mid year and redshirting.
Anyway zero chance he redshirts imo. I doubt anyone does sans injury.
All the whiteboard said about him was "Symir RS". The mid-year stuff was all speculation. The board was also a pic taken after the Hauser departure was announced, so if the plan was a redshirt, no reason it would've changed. And with Anim, McEwen, Elliott, Akanno, & Torrence all being guards that will likely fit into similar positions, a redshirt wouldn't surprise me at all. Unlikely we'll go 12 deep, which is the number of active scholarships we would now have with Torrence. I'd guess one of the freshmen redshirts.
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Wasn't this already known? Including him red shirting.
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https://cnycentral.com/sports/content/symir-torrence-celebrates-marquette-commitment-with-signature-in-front-of-family-friends
Symir wearing MU Number 10 in that interview . He is rapidly becoming one of my favorites.
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Watching his highlight videos, the name that keeps occurring to me is Gary Payton.
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All the whiteboard said about him was "Symir RS".
RS = Really Soon.
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What's a Howzer? Vaguely familiar.
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All the whiteboard said about him was "Symir RS". The mid-year stuff was all speculation. The board was also a pic taken after the Hauser departure was announced, so if the plan was a redshirt, no reason it would've changed. And with Anim, McEwen, Elliott, Akanno, & Torrence all being guards that will likely fit into similar positions, a redshirt wouldn't surprise me at all. Unlikely we'll go 12 deep, which is the number of active scholarships we would now have with Torrence. I'd guess one of the freshmen redshirts.
I stand corrected. I also think you are correct that someone redshirt but I doubt that decision has been made yet. I would guess that it’s Dexter if anyone.
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LOL why wouldn't I be happy?? I hope like hell he's a major needle mover for MU this year, but not many Freshman are, that's reality.
Haha, glad you are happy as well Guru. We do agree on that - freshman rarely move the needle, but thrilled he can either show flashes for the future or make life tough on our PGs in practice.
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https://cnycentral.com/sports/content/symir-torrence-celebrates-marquette-commitment-with-signature-in-front-of-family-friends
glad to have him!!
i see virginia had him on their list as well, but it must have had to go thru the hausa's first, eyn'a?/color]
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Watching his highlight videos, the name that keeps occurring to me is Gary Payton.
I was thinking Sleepy Floyd.
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I was thinking Sleepy Floyd.
Sleepy Floyd was an effen stud, so that would be A-OK.
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RS = Really Soon.
That is the mostly likely meaning...
They are not going to red-shirt him if he is here a year earlier and graduated already and re-classified from 2020 to 2019.
That wouldn't make sense...we'll see. Very excited about these collection of players. Will be totally different style of play next year.
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What a tremendous attitude Symir has! You can just hear the gratitude, hunger, and desire to be the best. Humility with desire to be an elite player.
Agreed.
I picked that up when he came for a visit last year as well. Immediately impressed with his demeanor and apparent character and such...
Seems like a solid young man, who was raised well and good player and good impressions.
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Welcome Symir!
So if I'm counting correctly this would leave us with 5 open scholarships for 20-21? (Markus, Jayce, Ed, and Sacar all graduating and the 1 remaining open one from this year)
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Yes
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I have mixed emotions on his decision. While it would be great if he could be a big contributor next year, I would hate to see a year wasted if that is not the case. As a rule, not a big fan of reclassifying. Many on here question how much freshmen can/will contribute and having a kid come in early makes that more difficult.
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I have mixed emotions on his decision. While it would be great if he could be a big contributor next year, I would hate to see a year wasted if that is not the case. As a rule, not a big fan of reclassifying. Many on here question how much freshmen can/will contribute and having a kid come in early makes that more difficult.
Generally agree here, although I think he was originally in class of 2019 before transferring to Vermont Academy. Don't have the details, but he was listed as a sophomore at Syracuse Science Academy for 2016-17. That would have made him a senior for 2018-19. So it seems like he's at least the right age.
Still, I don't think there's a huge need for him as the roster is currently constructed, so I wouldn't hate to see a redshirt. Go ahead and burn it if we have an early season injury to one of the guards.
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Alternatively, would it make sense that he prefers to come here instead of an additional high school year to prepare with the team, collegiate strength/conditioning coaches, etc? Similar to what Joey did, but for the full year instead? If planned time to be at Marquette is 2020-2024, theoretically could maximize that by coming early to redshirt and hit the ground running in what would have been his original freshman year
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I have mixed emotions on his decision. While it would be great if he could be a big contributor next year, I would hate to see a year wasted if that is not the case. As a rule, not a big fan of reclassifying. Many on here question how much freshmen can/will contribute and having a kid come in early makes that more difficult.
Agreed Goose. Personally, I don't like trading a year of 23 year old Symir for a year of 18 year old Symir. My guess 23 year old Symir will be the better of the two. Of course, if the plan is to redshirt him like some speculated, then you don't have to make that trade.
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Agreed Goose. Personally, I don't like trading a year of 23 year old Symir for a year of 18 year old Symir. My guess 23 year old Symir will be the better of the two. Of course, if the plan is to redshirt him like some speculated, then you don't have to make that trade.
He looks physically ready to play now, not like Greg Elliott who was a string bean and needed a year to mature. Symir might be the only true point on the team, Howard
is not, Elliott is not and not even sure Koby is. So he might get more time then you think. I see the 4 guards and Sacar playing a lot this year. So 3 spots for 5 players.
Cain and Bailey will be involved at the 3 as well, competition is great to have. Of course, those 2 will be playing the 4 as well.
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He looks physically ready to play now, not like Greg Elliott who was a string bean and needed a year to mature. Symir might be the only true point on the team, .
Yeah this is the way I see it too. We really haven't had a true Point for years. If we find he's ready, Great. But if he's not then go with the RS(if he agrees). But we have this option if he's here, we don't have that choice if he's in High School
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Is the question here really would Symir be better at 18 then 23!?!?
Would love for him to come and redshirt for a year and hit the ground running with a year of practice n weights for 2020 season. It could be true tho that hes the best PG on the roster, which would be a godsend after not having one last year. Most likely for coaches to decide how the whole 3 headed monster of kobe, greg, and markus can handle ball handling n more importantly good shot facilitation with the ball in their hands. Greg really impressed me as a facilitator n willing passer with really nice court vision. Markus i think us a willing passer but simply has hirrible court vision and a very poor PG mentality, effort is there just not in his DNA, imo. If kobe is a willing n gifted passer i would be elated to see Symir redshirt. If all 3 are inable to pass n get an offense operating n producing easy baskets thru ball movement then Symir has to play. My 2 cents
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I'm for letting Symir do exactly what he wants to do, of course after discussing all of his options with his parents and coaches.
If after all of that, he decides he does not want to redshirt, I will support that decision 100% no matter how much (or little) he plays.
I mean, do we even really know the kinds of conversations he's had about this subject already? Maybe he told Wojo that one reason he picked Marquette over others is that others wanted him to redshirt.
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One thing to keep in mind in regards to coming early and redshirting, that is a long season for kid not doing what he loves most in life. I would think sitting out your first year could cause added frustration for a kid. RS second year and you already have adjusted to MKE/school and made friends. I think coming early to sit out is a risk of having kid possibly making a bad decision down the road.
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My gut feeling is that Wojo will want to show he did need the Hausers, so he will not redshirt anyone.
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Agreed Goose. Personally, I don't like trading a year of 23 year old Symir for a year of 18 year old Symir. My guess 23 year old Symir will be the better of the two. Of course, if the plan is to redshirt him like some speculated, then you don't have to make that trade.
But does 23-year-old Symir still want to be in college ... and does 18-year-old Symir think he'll still be a college student at 23?
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But does 23-year-old Symir still want to be in college ... and does 18-year-old Symir think he'll still be a college student at 23?
Precisely. The presumption that any incoming freshman will stay for 4 or 5 years is going against the trend given the number of transfers, grad transfers and early entrants. Suit him up and let's get after it.
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My gut feeling is that Wojo will want to show he did need the Hausers, so he will not redshirt anyone.
Yet Joey redshirted
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My gut feeling is that Wojo will want to show he did need the Hausers, so he will not redshirt anyone.
"not" is a bad word to accidentally leave out of most posts.
Precisely. The presumption that any incoming freshman will stay for 4 or 5 years is going against the trend given the number of transfers, grad transfers and early entrants. Suit him up and let's get after it.
This ... if it's what Symir wants. (And why wouldn't it be?)
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This ... if it's what Symir wants. (And why wouldn't it be?)
One would think he would want to play. Suit him up.
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Forget who took original pic of whiteboard. Kudos to that MU fan.
Not a pic, screen grab from a MU basketball video.
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He looks physically ready to play now, not like Greg Elliott who was a string bean and needed a year to mature. Symir might be the only true point on the team, Howard
is not, Elliott is not and not even sure Koby is. So he might get more time then you think. I see the 4 guards and Sacar playing a lot this year. So 3 spots for 5 players.
Cain and Bailey will be involved at the 3 as well, competition is great to have. Of course, those 2 will be playing the 4 as well.
What makes you think that he is a true point? I've always seen him listed as a combo guard.
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What makes you think that he is a true point? I've always seen him listed as a combo guard.
Watch the video? Can play both, but has court vision
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Will discuss red shirting with the staff when he gets on campus
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2019/06/03/marquette-gets-basketball-recruit-symir-torrence-2019-year-early/1330665001/
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Yet Joey redshirted
Joey was recovering from ankle surgery.
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Joey was recovering from ankle surgery.
And got class A medical care which was the point of enrollment
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Joey was recovering from ankle surgery.
Wojo was by his side.
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Will discuss red shirting with the staff when he gets on campus
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2019/06/03/marquette-gets-basketball-recruit-symir-torrence-2019-year-early/1330665001/
There it is. It has been discussed and will be discussed more. Seems like either option is possible. I just want him to be happy during his entire time at Marquette, and productive when he's playing.
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People, come on, a bird in hand it always worth two in the bush. If the choice was Symir vs. someone else in 2019-2020 then maybe there is some discussion. But right now the choice is Symir vs. an empty schollie - no brainer - if he makes a single positive contribution this year it's a plus on the season.
Speculating about a trade off with 2023 is rediculous - any number of zillion things can and will have changed by then. You want to put the absolute BEST product you can on the floor in any given year. You deal with the future when it comes. (Exhibit 1, Hank).
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People, come on, a bird in hand it always worth two in the bush. If the choice was Symir vs. someone else in 2019-2020 then maybe there is some discussion. But right now the choice is Symir vs. an empty schollie - no brainer - if he makes a single positive contribution this year it's a plus on the season.
Speculating about a trade off with 2023 is rediculous - any number of zillion things can and will have changed by then. You want to put the absolute BEST product you can on the floor in any given year. You deal with the future when it comes. (Exhibit 1, Hank).
You're right. I think his addition will improve the team. He could be the best point guard on the team in short order. Certainly a luxury we did not have last year.
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You're right. I think his addition will improve the team. He could be the best point guard on the team in short order. Certainly a luxury we did not have last year.
In 2023, I assume his first thought right now is he will be in the NBA
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You're right. I think his addition will improve the team. He could be the best point guard on the team in short order. Certainly a luxury we did not have last year.
Markus will be our point guard next year.
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People, come on, a bird in hand it always worth two in the bush. If the choice was Symir vs. someone else in 2019-2020 then maybe there is some discussion. But right now the choice is Symir vs. an empty schollie - no brainer - if he makes a single positive contribution this year it's a plus on the season.
Speculating about a trade off with 2023 is rediculous - any number of zillion things can and will have changed by then. You want to put the absolute BEST product you can on the floor in any given year. You deal with the future when it comes. (Exhibit 1, Hank).
Truer words have never been spoken
Take Symir this year 100 times out of 100
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Why would we want anyone to redshirt this year? I would rather have a body sitting on the bench then not being able to play. Perhaps next season depending on our recruiting class.
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Why would we want anyone to redshirt this year? I would rather have a body sitting on the bench then not being able to play. Perhaps next season depending on our recruiting class.
Uhh...because there's no way we'll play 12 deep?
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Markus will be our point guard next year.
Markus will be handling the ball and shooting a lot next year. I don't think he's going to make much of a jump in point guard skills. He would have by now if he were a natural point. When I say point guard, I mean a facilitator/distributor. Not a guy who starts as a 1 and takes the ball up court to shoot threes. I'm a big Markus fan but if we can divide the duties the team will be way better off.
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Markus will be our point guard next year.
This is correct. They'll likely have more shared ballhandling, but Markus is our PG. His assist rate for the full season was 4th in the Big East. Just because he is a scoring point guard doesn't mean he doesn't also fulfill the passing role.
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His assist rate for the full season was 4th in the Big East.
Markus had two elite 3-point shooters on the court with him. That had to help his assist rate quite a bit, right? In general, Markus does not appear to have either great court vision or a passer's mentality. If he did -- if he had demonstrated he was a "true PG" -- he'd have left and been a first-round draft pick.
This is absolutely not intended as a knock against Markus. Everybody can't do everything great. I love having him on our team, I enjoy watching him play and I've been impressed by how much he has improved over the course of his career. He is a great Warrior. I just wonder a little about a stat like "assist rate" in this situation.
I do agree with you and others that he will be our primary PG next season, but I think the ballhandling will be spread around much more. I also think a kid like Symir -- if as good as advertised -- could be much more of an asset than Chartouney was last season.
Markus averaged 33.6 mpg last season, when he just about always had to have the ball because Wojo had such few options at the position. Markus appeared worn out and banged-up late in the season. Let's say he averages 30 next season. You need another PG for the 10 minutes he doesn't play. You also can play him off the ball 5-10 of his 30 minutes. You also might want 4-guard sets against quite a few teams. I think there will be minutes to go around, especially if Akanno is not considered ready to play.
Based on what I know today, I want Symir to play next season. Obviously, it's a fluid situation. As I've said before, I want him to be happy, and I also trust Wojo on this.
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Watch the video? Can play both, but has court vision
After people said that Sandy Cohen could play point guard based on his video, I got skeptical.
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Markus had two elite 3-point shooters on the court with him. That had to help his assist rate quite a bit, right? In general, Markus does not appear to have either great court vision or a passer's mentality. If he did -- if he had demonstrated he was a "true PG" -- he'd have left and been a first-round draft pick.
Markus is an underrated passer. His passing ability isn't what's keeping him from being a first-round NBA pick. Size, ballhandling and decisionmaking are.
I'd absolutely prefer to have Markus play off the ball a little more next season, but not because he can't dish.
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Markus is an underrated passer. His passing ability isn't what's keeping him from being a first-round NBA pick. Size, ballhandling and decisionmaking are.
I'd absolutely prefer to have Markus play off the ball a little more next season, but not because he can't dish.
I'm sure there's a lot of effort being put into grooming Markus to play point guard since that's his only way into the NBA, and having him in the NBA has obvious benefits for MU. That's not to say that Woj will force it, if its costs the team games. I'm guessing that Markus is working quite a lot on decision making and being a better distributor as a reaction to the transfers of the Hausers. He was challenged, and he strikes me as the type of guy who doesn't back down from those.
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Markus is an underrated passer. His passing ability isn't what's keeping him from being a first-round NBA pick. Size, ballhandling and decisionmaking are.
I'd absolutely prefer to have Markus play off the ball a little more next season, but not because he can't dish.
Ballhandling and decision-making ... I can live with that distinction. You are right, he definitely has made some good passes, although a nit-picker could argue that making the right decision is a major part of a pass being "good."
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My own personal belief...I was under the assumption Koby would be the primary ball handler and Markus would play more off the ball. That makes more sense to me.
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I'm sure there's a lot of effort being put into grooming Markus to play point guard since that's his only way into the NBA, and having him in the NBA has obvious benefits for MU. That's not to say that Woj will force it, if its costs the team games. I'm guessing that Markus is working quite a lot on decision making and being a better distributor as a reaction to the transfers of the Hausers. He was challenged, and he strikes me as the type of guy who doesn't back down from those.
From The Athletic's story a few weeks back:
“The things we’ve talked to him about, is continuing to improve his decision-making,” Wojciechowski says of Howard. “You always want him to follow his instincts to score, but when the defense is fully committed to taking those instincts away, then you have to make the right play. That’s something that he knows, that he wants to get better at. The other part of it is we do have guys where at times he can be off the ball, so there isn’t so much the pressure on him to handle and score and set up other people. Where he can learn to move better without the ball, which then creates different areas of attack, which may make it more difficult for teams to sit on him.”
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Markus being schooled by the Murray St. guard might of been a real eye opener for Markus. I always felt Markus had a great desire to improve his game. It would not surprise me, if he became a better distributor. However, I think Koby will play point and Markus will play a few less minutes this year. He did seem to wear down at end of last year.
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Markus had two elite 3-point shooters on the court with him. That had to help his assist rate quite a bit, right? In general, Markus does not appear to have either great court vision or a passer's mentality. If he did -- if he had demonstrated he was a "true PG" -- he'd have left and been a first-round draft pick.
This is absolutely not intended as a knock against Markus. Everybody can't do everything great. I love having him on our team, I enjoy watching him play and I've been impressed by how much he has improved over the course of his career. He is a great Warrior. I just wonder a little about a stat like "assist rate" in this situation.
I do agree with you and others that he will be our primary PG next season, but I think the ballhandling will be spread around much more. I also think a kid like Symir -- if as good as advertised -- could be much more of an asset than Chartouney was last season.
Markus averaged 33.6 mpg last season, when he just about always had to have the ball because Wojo had such few options at the position. Markus appeared worn out and banged-up late in the season. Let's say he averages 30 next season. You need another PG for the 10 minutes he doesn't play. You also can play him off the ball 5-10 of his 30 minutes. You also might want 4-guard sets against quite a few teams. I think there will be minutes to go around, especially if Akanno is not considered ready to play.
Based on what I know today, I want Symir to play next season. Obviously, it's a fluid situation. As I've said before, I want him to be happy, and I also trust Wojo on this.
This to me (not just from you) feels like the "Markus only gets the easy assists" argument. Does he benefit from having good shooters around him? Sure. But so did Chartouny. So did Sacar. They didn't have Markus' assist rate.
I fans have an inherent bias against score-first point guards. People want Junior Cadougan, or a PG like Dom James that suppresses his own scoring desires to give to others. Markus' ability to create for others might be taken for granted because he so often creates for himself.
His assist rating was as high as it was because he passed to others in positions to score. He doesn't get much credit for that because he scores 25 ppg, but in spite of that he's still one of the best providers in the Big East.
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Markus is an underrated passer. His passing ability isn't what's keeping him from being a first-round NBA pick. Size, ballhandling and decisionmaking are.
I'd absolutely prefer to have Markus play off the ball a little more next season, but not because he can't dish.
I would agree, though would note Markus isn't a poor ballhandler. He's also not good, but he's pretty average at this level. His turnover rates are lower than Junior or Derrick ever had, not quite as good (but close) to Dominic James. His turnovers are exaggerated because of his high usage rate.
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This to me (not just from you) feels like the "Markus only gets the easy assists" argument. Does he benefit from having good shooters around him? Sure. But so did Chartouny. So did Sacar. They didn't have Markus' assist rate.
I fans have an inherent bias against score-first point guards. People want Junior Cadougan, or a PG like Dom James that suppresses his own scoring desires to give to others. Markus' ability to create for others might be taken for granted because he so often creates for himself.
His assist rating was as high as it was because he passed to others in positions to score. He doesn't get much credit for that because he scores 25 ppg, but in spite of that he's still one of the best providers in the Big East.
Thanks for this perspective. I found it interesting and useful.
And for the record, I really really really like score-first PGs. I do like it when they also find more ways to get others involved, but I like a PG who can do what Markus did to Buffalo, K-State, Providence, Nova, etc.
I love me some Steph Curry, but there's only one of him in the world. I loved watching Allen Iverson, whose trip to the Finals proved a player like him could win. I enjoy watching Westbrook, despite his flaws.
Of course, many score-first PGs have wingmen who aren't traditional PGs but handle the ball and initiate the offense a lot -- Draymond is the perfect example. Maybe Koby or Symir (or both) will end up being Markus' wingman.
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This to me (not just from you) feels like the "Markus only gets the easy assists" argument. Does he benefit from having good shooters around him? Sure. But so did Chartouny. So did Sacar. They didn't have Markus' assist rate.
I fans have an inherent bias against score-first point guards. People want Junior Cadougan, or a PG like Dom James that suppresses his own scoring desires to give to others. Markus' ability to create for others might be taken for granted because he so often creates for himself.
His assist rating was as high as it was because he passed to others in positions to score. He doesn't get much credit for that because he scores 25 ppg, but in spite of that he's still one of the best providers in the Big East.
Yeah and I have no idea why. It's just not how the game is played any longer.
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For us old farts, arguably the best point guard of all time scored and passed - Oscar Robertson.
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For us old farts, arguably the best point guard of all time scored and passed - Oscar Robertson.
Yes, he averaged a whopping 33.8 ppg for his collegiate career and 7.1 apg.
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I love me some Steph Curry, but there's only one of him in the world. I loved watching Allen Iverson, whose trip to the Finals proved a player like him could win. I enjoy watching Westbrook, despite his flaws.
Of course, many score-first PGs have wingmen who aren't traditional PGs but handle the ball and initiate the offense a lot -- Draymond is the perfect example. Maybe Koby or Symir (or both) will end up being Markus' wingman.
At the NBA level, the best of those guys are few and far between. Steph and Westbrook are pretty unique. At the collegiate level, there's more. The really successful ones, like Young & Morant, end up lottery picks. But guys like Markus, Edwards, Winston, they can dominate the ball and still be All Americans.
I think some of the criticism comes because while those types of players are instrumental in wins, they are even more evident in defeat. In early losses, especially against Indiana & St John's, Markus took the brunt of criticism. In the late season skid, it was all centered on Markus not being right. And just like Yelp reviews, the negative is always more evident, more loud, more expressive than the positive.
He might not be Steph Curry, but against most of the teams we play, it probably feels that way (similar to how Shamorie Ponds felt to us). But it's easier up close to let the negatives outweigh the positives.
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For us old farts, arguably the best point guard of all time scored and passed - Oscar Robertson.
Two things are obvious from this post:
1. Yes, you are old, and
2. Your memory is still stellar.
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At the NBA level, the best of those guys are few and far between. Steph and Westbrook are pretty unique. At the collegiate level, there's more. The really successful ones, like Young & Morant, end up lottery picks. But guys like Markus, Edwards, Winston, they can dominate the ball and still be All Americans.
I think some of the criticism comes because while those types of players are instrumental in wins, they are even more evident in defeat. In early losses, especially against Indiana & St John's, Markus took the brunt of criticism. In the late season skid, it was all centered on Markus not being right. And just like Yelp reviews, the negative is always more evident, more loud, more expressive than the positive.
He might not be Steph Curry, but against most of the teams we play, it probably feels that way (similar to how Shamorie Ponds felt to us). But it's easier up close to let the negatives outweigh the positives.
OK, brew, I always respect your views.
I've been watching high-level basketball for a lot of years and I think I know a great or very good or good or mediocre or bad PG when I see him or her. IMHO, Markus does not have the greatest "PG skills." You apparently disagree. Others probably agree with you while some agree with me.
I still think Markus is a great college basketball player and I am glad he is back to lead our Warriors.
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Article on Symir's graduation party comments:
https://cnycentral.com/sports/high-school/symirs-syracuse-send-off-the-315-will-definitely-be-represented-at-marquette
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Markus being schooled by the Murray St. guard might of been a real eye opener for Markus. I always felt Markus had a great desire to improve his game. It would not surprise me, if he became a better distributor. However, I think Koby will play point and Markus will play a few less minutes this year. He did seem to wear down at end of last year.
This. Look, last year Markus charged himself with the task of improving his D. As a Soph, he was willing but largely inept. Last year he was solid on D, a marked improvement. Don't think for a moment that Markus isn't working his tail off this summer doing drills that require him to make quick reads, decisions and passes. Similarly, I assume he's also working hard on his ball handling. He needs to be near impossible to pick pocket one on one this year.
I also think he's going to spend some time off the ball this season. We really didn't have any viable options last year, despite what Sam Hauser might think.
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This. Look, last year Markus charged himself with the task of improving his D. As a Soph, he was willing but largely inept. Last year he was solid on D, a marked improvement. Don't think for a moment that Markus isn't working his tail off this summer doing drills that require him to make quick reads, decisions and passes. Similarly, I assume he's also working hard on his ball handling. He needs to be near impossible to pick pocket one on one this year.
I also think he's going to spend some time off the ball this season. We really didn't have any viable options last year, despite what Sam Hauser might think.
I'm not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at Sam but I do think the rest of what you wrote makes a lot of sense. Hope you're right.
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If Markus can limit his tendency to dribble into trouble down-low he will increase his assist rate and reduce his TO rate. That's my biggest hope for next year for Markus as a PG. It was like watching Jerel McNeal at times with the: Drive into the lane, pick up the ball, look around to pass and get mobbed OR toss up a shot that gets stuck in the trees.
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I'm not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at Sam but I do think the rest of what you wrote makes a lot of sense. Hope you're right.
Probably because Sam thought he could be the one to bring the ball up on offense.
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Probably because Sam thought he could be the one to bring the ball up on offense.
You might be kidding but if you ever watched a SPASH game you'd know that just not the case. They want the ball to move, that's it.
They ended up going to Hall of Fame coaches. They didn't go to Iowa, they didn't run to safety at UW. They ended up at two of the best programs in the country.
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I'm not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at Sam but I do think the rest of what you wrote makes a lot of sense. Hope you're right.
You're right lens. That was probably unnecessarily salty. And I wasn't even drinking.
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You might be kidding but if you ever watched a SPASH game you'd know that just not the case. They want the ball to move, that's it.
They ended up going to Hall of Fame coaches. They didn't go to Iowa, they didn't run to safety at UW. They ended up at two of the best programs in the country.
What's the deal with you Wisconsin people genuflecting at the altar of Spash academy basketball circa four years ago?
Multiple people on here have now referenced their high school play as if it's the only motivation in the basketball life of the Hauser brothers. It was just high school ball for chrissakes.
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What's the deal with you Wisconsin people genuflecting at the altar of Spash academy basketball circa four years ago?
Multiple people on here have now referenced their high school play as if it's the only motivation in the basketball life of the Hauser brothers. It was just high school ball for chrissakes.
Because when I watched it I was amazed that I couldn’t tell who Sam, Joey or Trevor was. All 5 guys looked like the D1 stud. It was smooth as silk. Germantown was close. Next best program I’ve seen. Just move the ball. That’s all.
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Because when I watched it I was amazed that I couldn’t tell who Sam, Joey or Trevor was. All 5 guys looked like the D1 stud. It was smooth as silk. Germantown was close. Next best program I’ve seen. Just move the ball. That’s all.
This story has a first name
It's O-S-C-A-R
This story has a second name
It's M-A-Y-E-R
Oh I also loved to watch SPASH play
And if you ask me what I'll say
This story certainly has a way
With B-O-L-O-G-N-A
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Because when I watched it I was amazed that I couldn’t tell who Sam, Joey or Trevor was. All 5 guys looked like the D1 stud. It was smooth as silk. Germantown was close. Next best program I’ve seen. Just move the ball. That’s all.
All white guys look the same to you eh?
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All white guys look the same to you eh?
Hey, that’s wacist.
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I've been watching high-level basketball for a lot of years and I think I know a great or very good or good or mediocre or bad PG when I see him or her. IMHO, Markus does not have the greatest "PG skills." You apparently disagree. Others probably agree with you while some agree with me.
I think, as Fluffy noted, the position is changing. 4 of the 5 Cousy finalists last year were ball-dominant point guards. Howard, Winston, Morant, & Waters all fit that mold. The year before, it came down to insanely ball dominant Trae Young & lower-but-still-high-usage Jalen Brunson. The majority of guys playing the position want to be Steph Curry & score 25, get 10 assists, and do so while shooting 40% from three.
Is Markus the kind of passer that Morant or Young were? No. His best strengths are definitely on the scoring side. But he still creates for others & does an adequate job running a team. That's why I'm hoping that those duties are more shared this year than they were last year. We likely would've been better last year with a Quentin Grimes alongside Howard, or if Chartouny had been as advertised. But I do think that Markus will still likely be on the ball primarily this year, he will score & create for others, and if Marquette has any success, will again be on the Cousy watchlist.
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Article on Symir's graduation party comments:
https://cnycentral.com/sports/high-school/symirs-syracuse-send-off-the-315-will-definitely-be-represented-at-marquette
What an awesome kid. He gets it.
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I watched SPASH play numerous times. I saw a team with 3 D1 basketball players. Two of them high major.
They didn’t play some special brand of basketball. They isolated guys and backed them down all the time. So let’s not go too far down the “the ball just moved” mantra here.
If the Hausers were frustrated well fine. Hopefully they will find what they’re looking for at their next stops.
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I watched SPASH play numerous times. I saw a team with 3 D1 basketball players. Two of them high major.
They didn’t play some special brand of basketball. They isolated guys and backed them down all the time. So let’s not go too far down the “the ball just moved” mantra here.
If the Hausers were frustrated well fine. Hopefully they will find what they’re looking for at their next stops.
Agreed. There were times of beautiful ball movement, but some people are building it up to mythical proportions.
And when Joey was a junior, they ran a lot of isolation.
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What an awesome kid. He gets it.
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I think, as Fluffy noted, the position is changing. 4 of the 5 Cousy finalists last year were ball-dominant point guards. Howard, Winston, Morant, & Waters all fit that mold. The year before, it came down to insanely ball dominant Trae Young & lower-but-still-high-usage Jalen Brunson. The majority of guys playing the position want to be Steph Curry & score 25, get 10 assists, and do so while shooting 40% from three.
Is Markus the kind of passer that Morant or Young were? No. His best strengths are definitely on the scoring side. But he still creates for others & does an adequate job running a team. That's why I'm hoping that those duties are more shared this year than they were last year. We likely would've been better last year with a Quentin Grimes alongside Howard, or if Chartouny had been as advertised. But I do think that Markus will still likely be on the ball primarily this year, he will score & create for others, and if Marquette has any success, will again be on the Cousy watchlist.
All good points, brewski.
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https://twitter.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1143249490532610050
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https://twitter.com/MarquetteMBB/status/1143249490532610050
Nice to get a look at him ... though, frankly, that was a pass most of us could have made.
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He is not scrawny.
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Why is he wearing a sports bra?
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Nice to get a look at him ... though, frankly, that was a pass most of us could have made.
Only makes the easy passes, hey?
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Why is he wearing a sports bra?
It's the harness all the guys wear that collects a bunch of biometrics.
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Only makes the easy passes, hey?
In this 6-second clip, yes.
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In this 6-second clip, yes.
Thought teal was not needed
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Thought teal was not needed
It wasn't, Newsy. I knew you were kidding. Just had to throw out my own witty rejoinder ... which fell like an anvil.
No Scoopers were injured in the making of this comment.
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No Scoopers were injured in the making of this comment.
I'm sure some will disagree.