MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Aircraftcarrier on May 21, 2019, 09:11:39 AM
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
The first step is retaining a core group of players, specifically starters.
-
Of course the first response is a snide remark and does not answer the question.Scoop never disappoints
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
It’s a tall task IMO. I think they can be consistently good, occasionally great
-
More clearly define your terms. Did Villanova cheat? Virginia? UNC? Who is cheating and how much are they cheating? Next level...blue blood level? Nova? MSU?
I think that if the powers had to choose between being good and clean or great and dirty, they would choose good and clean.
-
TBD
-
Sorry for being snide.
I'll give you my opinion to your question - No, not with Wojo running the show. He's had 5 years. He has not cheated (that we know of to-date) which is a great thing. However, He also has not brought the program back to consistent top 25 status, which is what I believe you're referencing when you say "next step".
back in December, I thought he had finally put all the puzzle pieces together. However, The epic collapse down the stretch looked like a coach who struggled with X's and O's, losing to teams that did even make the tournament, let alone weren't ranked in the top 25. He needed to find a way to stop the slide and couldn't.
Add insult to injury, He lost control of his locker room, and now we're replacing 2 starters on last years team.
-
Lets try to get over the loss of Joey. Kid will be an better than average college player, of which we have others of those on the roster.
Not sure how anyone could truly argue that a roster next year of mh, kobe, greg, bailey, sam, theo and possibly ed were not all better than joey. So we lost arguably our 7-8th man, wgaf??
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
this sounds like an assumption has been made that MU has been "cheating". i don't mean to assume that's what you meant, but if MU has been cheating to get to where we are now, they ain't very good at it
-
Lets try to get over the loss of Joey. Kid will be an better than average college player, of which we have others of those on the roster.
Not sure how anyone could truly argue that a roster next year of mh, kobe, greg, bailey, sam, theo and possibly ed were not all better than joey. So we lost arguably our 7-8th man, wgaf??
You're forgetting Sam
-
Lets try to get over the loss of Joey. Kid will be an better than average college player, of which we have others of those on the roster.
Not sure how anyone could truly argue that a roster next year of mh, kobe, greg, bailey, sam, theo and possibly ed were not all better than joey. So we lost arguably our 7-8th man, wgaf??
Agree time to get over it. But, you underestimate they type of player he will develop into. He started as a Freshman for MU. That's awfully impressive for a better than average player. Joey will be a very good player.
-
Wait joey and sam are transferring??? when did we hear about this???
-
More clearly define your terms. Did Villanova cheat? Virginia? UNC? Who is cheating and how much are they cheating? Next level...blue blood level? Nova? MSU?
I think that if the powers had to choose between being good and clean or great and dirty, they would choose good and clean.
VU-Don't know … UVA-Don't know....UNC-Absolutely YES
-
VU-Don't know … UVA-Don't know....UNC-Absolutely YES
If Arizona pays their players and you steal a player originally committed to Arizona....does that mean anything.
-
Won feats in front of da udder feats, hey?
-
If Arizona pays their players and you steal a player originally committed to Arizona....does that mean anything.
Is Arizona paying all their players?
-
My realistic (albeit super lofty) goal is for Marquette to become the same type of program that Nova and Gonzaga are.
I don't know if Wright and Few cheat but given the little I know about them I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they don't.
Not sure if Wojo can get us to that level; his inability to manage egos leads me to believe probably not. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, or maybe the next coach will be able to accomplish this. Or the coach after that.
One thing Wright and Few have in common: They stayed for years and years and years at programs that some might have considered "stepping stone" type situations despite receiving big-money offers from other schools. In Wright's case, he was allowed to stay even though he didn't have great success early on.
But to answer the OP question, yes, if Nova and Gonzaga can win big without cheating -- and again, for the sake of argument, I'll say they do -- so can Marquette.
-
Yes, and I think Wojo is the coach who can get us there. We have gotten better slowly but surely...and if you look at a guy like Wright, that's exactly how he did it. He turned Drexel around in the course of a few seasons, and then he turned Nova from an NIT-level school to a National Champion.
Yes, he started winning at Nova in March sooner than Wojo has...but Jay started with seven years' HC experience at Drexel, so he was more seasoned when he hit the BE.
And 82 hit on a key for guys like Wright and Few - longevity at a single school. If we're patient with Wojo, we may get comparable results.
-
Yes, and I think Wojo is the coach who can get us there. We have gotten better slowly but surely...and if you look at a guy like Wright, that's exactly how he did it. He turned Drexel around in the course of a few seasons, and then he turned Nova from an NIT-level school to a National Champion.
Yes, he started winning at Nova in March sooner than Wojo has...but Jay started with seven years' HC experience at Drexel, so he was more seasoned when he hit the BE.
And 82 hit on a key for guys like Wright and Few - longevity at a single school. If we're patient with Wojo, we may get comparable results.
I like how you think, Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
-
Yes, and I think Wojo is the coach who can get us there. We have gotten better slowly but surely...and if you look at a guy like Wright, that's exactly how he did it. He turned Drexel around in the course of a few seasons, and then he turned Nova from an NIT-level school to a National Champion.
Yes, he started winning at Nova in March sooner than Wojo has...but Jay started with seven years' HC experience at Drexel, so he was more seasoned when he hit the BE.
And 82 hit on a key for guys like Wright and Few - longevity at a single school. If we're patient with Wojo, we may get comparable results.
Hofstra not Drexel. Your point stands, though.
-
Is Arizona paying all their players?
Nah, probably just the real studs.
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
It's beyond sad that any program aspiring to rise to another level has to ask that question.
That is the brutal reality of college basketball right now.
-
It's beyond sad that any program aspiring to rise to another level has to ask that question.
That is the brutal reality of college basketball right now.
As long as college basketball is a big money operation and the players aren’t getting paid, it will continue being the reality.
-
As long as college basketball is a big money operation and the players aren’t getting paid, it will continue being the reality.
But they are being paid. At least at the big money schools.
-
But they are being paid. At least at the big money schools.
Smart kids
-
But they are being paid. At least at the big money schools.
Some. Not all. You start paying, it is all over for a school like MU and many others.
-
More clearly define your terms. Did Villanova cheat? Virginia? UNC? Who is cheating and how much are they cheating? Next level...blue blood level? Nova? MSU?
I think that if the powers had to choose between being good and clean or great and dirty, they would choose good and clean.
Easiest excuse for a lack of success? Those guys cheat. We don't. Usually BS.
-
VU-Don't know … UVA-Don't know....UNC-Absolutely YES
Roy doesn’t cheat. He has backed away from numerous recruits when handlers or AAU coaches were heavily involved in the process. Look at the facts, if he was cheating why did they miss out on so many 5 star recruits over the last 7-8 years. He wasn’t going to play the game. Fans were all over him at times for backing away from some recruits and time revealed that there were serious issues with said player.
Look 8 miles down the road to Durham when Capel was there....their recruiting changed dramatically from even the type of recruits they once went after. Williamson’s family moved across country into a rental of an $850-900K home in an exclusive neighborhood- the home is owned by a Duke alum. In the tapes revealed in court he was quoted as saying he wanted a rent free home, a job paying $150-20OK that wouldn’t require him to work, a car and a large sum of cash to have Zion attend Kansas.....and he went to Duke for nothing? If you believe that I have some great land to sell you.
-
Roy doesn’t cheat. He has backed away from numerous recruits when handlers or AAU coaches were heavily involved in the process. Look at the facts, if he was cheating why did they miss out on so many 5 star recruits over the last 7-8 years. He wasn’t going to play the game. Fans were all over him at times for backing away from some recruits and time revealed that there were serious issues with said player.
Look 8 miles down the road to Durham when Capel was there....their recruiting changed dramatically from even the type of recruits they once went after. Williamson’s family moved across country into a rental of an $850-900K home in an exclusive neighborhood- the home is owned by a Duke alum. In the tapes revealed in court he was quoted as saying he wanted a rent free home, a job paying $150-20OK that wouldn’t require him to work, a car and a large sum of cash to have Zion attend Kansas.....and he went to Duke for nothing? If you believe that I have some great land to sell you.
He probably "backed away" (aka recruits backed away from their interest in UNC) because of the fake class scandal and the unknown of what kind of punishments they would face (much like LSU, Arizona, Kansas, etc...turns out the NCAA doesn't want to do anything at all so have at it). You really think it was just coincidental timing that they "stayed away" (hilarious) from 5 stars during that period of time and then as soon as the NCAA announces there will be no punishments they end up with 2 five stars (you know, the players they're "staying away" from) in Koby White and Nasir Little, followed by a class with two more five stars (again, the guys they're "staying away" from) in Cole Anthony and Armondo Bacot? Sorry, but that'd be one heck of a coincidence.
(And this is coming from someone who has always liked UNC as my second favorite college basketball team.)
-
Roy doesn’t cheat. He has backed away from numerous recruits when handlers or AAU coaches were heavily involved in the process. Look at the facts, if he was cheating why did they miss out on so many 5 star recruits over the last 7-8 years. He wasn’t going to play the game. Fans were all over him at times for backing away from some recruits and time revealed that there were serious issues with said player.
There are more ways to cheat besides paying recruits. Roy spent more than a decade cheating in a much worse way.
-
Can MU basketball program take the next step without cheating?
Yes. There are plenty of legitimate assets in place to support success at the next level. MU just needs a coach who can utilize those assets in a more effective way.
Unfortunately, the administration is willing to settle for the current status of the program. The current coach is good enough to keep the team in the 20-21 win range for a long period of time, with an occasional year like this past year. As long as kids stay out of trouble the administration will accept that level of success.
With a better coach MU can get the program back to the Crean /Buzz level.
-
Yes. There are plenty of legitimate assets in place to support success at the next level. MU just needs a coach who can utilize those assets in a more effective way.
Unfortunately, the administration is willing to settle for the current status of the program. The current coach is good enough to keep the team in the 20-21 win range for a long period of time, with an occasional year like this past year. As long as kids stay out of trouble the administration will accept that level of success.
With a better coach MU can get the program back to the Crean /Buzz level.
:o
Crean had 1 final four run with the best player in Marquette history...
Otherwise, how was Crean's level that much better than Wojo?
-
:o
Crean had 1 final four run with the best player in Marquette history...
Otherwise, how was Crean's level that much better than Wojo?
Crean brought us the leading scorer in MU history! ...wait
-
:o
Crean had 1 final four run with the best player in Marquette history...
Otherwise, how was Crean's level that much better than Wojo?
But he did recruit that player and they did get to the final four. It’s a silly argument to make.
-
Roy doesn’t cheat. He has backed away from numerous recruits when handlers or AAU coaches were heavily involved in the process. Look at the facts, if he was cheating why did they miss out on so many 5 star recruits over the last 7-8 years. He wasn’t going to play the game. Fans were all over him at times for backing away from some recruits and time revealed that there were serious issues with said player.
Look 8 miles down the road to Durham when Capel was there....their recruiting changed dramatically from even the type of recruits they once went after. Williamson’s family moved across country into a rental of an $850-900K home in an exclusive neighborhood- the home is owned by a Duke alum. In the tapes revealed in court he was quoted as saying he wanted a rent free home, a job paying $150-20OK that wouldn’t require him to work, a car and a large sum of cash to have Zion attend Kansas.....and he went to Duke for nothing? If you believe that I have some great land to sell you.
Why would roy cheat by giving money when he was already offering no show classes??
-
He probably "backed away" (aka recruits backed away from their interest in UNC) because of the fake class scandal and the unknown of what kind of punishments they would face (much like LSU, Arizona, Kansas, etc...turns out the NCAA doesn't want to do anything at all so have at it). You really think it was just coincidental timing that they "stayed away" (hilarious) from 5 stars during that period of time and then as soon as the NCAA announces there will be no punishments they end up with 2 five stars (you know, the players they're "staying away" from) in Koby White and Nasir Little, followed by a class with two more five stars (again, the guys they're "staying away" from) in Cole Anthony and Armondo Bacot? Sorry, but that'd be one heck of a coincidence.
(And this is coming from someone who has always liked UNC as my second favorite college basketball team.)
This. It's beyond ridiculous to think Roy "stayed away" from 5-stars because there was cheating involved.
-
:o
Crean had 1 final four run with the best player in Marquette history...
Otherwise, how was Crean's level that much better than Wojo?
You're better than this, jes. It's like saying, "Except for those four 80-yard TD passes we allowed, our defense was good."
You DID allow the 80-yard passes.
And Crean DID recruit, sign, develop and benefit from D-Wade.
And any Final Four run is obviously significant, especially given that there was other success (though not as successful success) during Crean's time.
Now, I certainly would agree that other than that he did nothing special. But the Final Four run WAS special, and Wojo hasn't come close to doing anything even remotely that special. If he had, most here would not be sniping at him.
-
You're better than this, jes. It's like saying, "Except for those four 80-yard TD passes we allowed, our defense was good."
You DID allow the 80-yard passes.
And Crean DID recruit, sign, develop and benefit from D-Wade.
And any Final Four run is obviously significant, especially given that there was other success (though not as successful success) during Crean's time.
Now, I certainly would agree that other than that he did nothing special. But the Final Four run WAS special, and Wojo hasn't come close to doing anything even remotely that special. If he had, most here would not be sniping at him.
Considering how many here do snipe at Crean, I beg to differ.
-
Considering how many here do snipe at Crean, I beg to differ.
I wasn't around Scoop in the years after the FF run. Was Crean being sniped at to the degree that Wojo is getting sniped at?
Asking seriously, as I have no idea.
-
Scoop started in 2006. So only 2 years of sniping at Crean while he was at MU.
-
Nah, T-Cubed deuced da bed with a weak ta prep four Kansas on college basketball's biggest stage. New den and der, he wuz a fraud and a phony, aina?
-
Scoop started in 2006. So only 2 years of sniping at Crean while he was at MU.
And posters have been making up the lost time ever since.
-
Scoop started in 2006. So only 2 years of sniping at Crean while he was at MU.
So, Scoop is just starting its angsty teenage years. Sounds about right.
-
Scoop started in 2006. So only 2 years of sniping at Crean while he was at MU.
2006 ... so that means there were 2 non-NCAA tourney teams plus the first-round loss to Alabama after the FF run. But he had brought in the Amigos recruiting class, followed by Lazar-Kooby, followed by Mbakwe.
So for those who were Scoopin' then, was the sniping as bad then as it is for Wojo now: Can't coach, can't manage egos, says nothing in timeouts, no adjustments, has no plan when recruiting, hasn't won anything, etc?
Maybe it was, though hard for me to believe.
-
No--the bad Crean sniping started the day he bolted for Indiana.
-
There were a few who hated Crean at the time. There was some restlessness because the classes were not balanced and the inability to recruit and develop bigs. There is more open hostility to Wojo than there was to Crean when he was the coach. The hostility really took off after he left.
-
It's kinda crazy what Wade bought Crean. 2 years with Wade, two NCAA tournaments and a FF. Other 7 years, 3 NCAAs and 1 NCAA win and then got the IU job.
If he hadn't gambled on Wade he probably would have been back to being an assistant after the 05 or 06 season.
-
Of course, you can go back and read the posts from 2006.
-
There were lots of questions on the old board after the Western Michigan game.
-
You're better than this, jes. It's like saying, "Except for those four 80-yard TD passes we allowed, our defense was good."
You DID allow the 80-yard passes.
And Crean DID recruit, sign, develop and benefit from D-Wade.
And any Final Four run is obviously significant, especially given that there was other success (though not as successful success) during Crean's time.
Now, I certainly would agree that other than that he did nothing special. But the Final Four run WAS special, and Wojo hasn't come close to doing anything even remotely that special. If he had, most here would not be sniping at him.
I loved the Crean years. They brought me to MU.
All I'm saying, is look at the entire resume. Buzz was significantly more impressive than Crean, as a whole.
If Wojo brings in an all time, HOF player and we have 1 deep run in the tourney, and wojo does little to nothing else, I won't think his coaching tenure overall is a great success.
-
I loved the Crean years. They brought me to MU.
All I'm saying, is look at the entire resume. Buzz was significantly more impressive than Crean, as a whole.
If Wojo brings in an all time, HOF player and we have 1 deep run in the tourney, and wojo does little to nothing else, I won't think his coaching tenure overall is a great success.
Fair enough. But he hasn't done that and therefore is nowhere near Crean's level of success. Not yet, anyway.
I don't need the HoFer. I'll just take the success!
-
Agree time to get over it. But, you underestimate they type of player he will develop into. He started as a Freshman for MU. That's awfully impressive for a better than average player. Joey will be a very good player.
Wojo has a history of starting freshmen who disappear from MU.
Maybe he is playing players too early. They get upset when their playing time decreases. I really did not think Joey was going to start next year.
-
I loved the Crean years. They brought me to MU.
All I'm saying, is look at the entire resume. Buzz was significantly more impressive than Crean, as a whole.
If Wojo brings in an all time, HOF player and we have 1 deep run in the tourney, and wojo does little to nothing else, I won't think his coaching tenure overall is a great success.
Fair. And true.
-
Of course, you can go back and read the posts from 2006.
C'mon, man ... that sounds like too much work.
-
C'mon, man ... that sounds like too much work.
I'm sure no one will, but reading those posts are actually very easy. At the top of the screen, there is a list of page numbers. Currently, I see the last one as 837. Just click on that 837 and it will bring you to the oldest posts on the site.
-
I wasn't around Scoop in the years after the FF run. Was Crean being sniped at to the degree that Wojo is getting sniped at?
Asking seriously, as I have no idea.
There was the outrage of getting to the Final Four and being blown out.....forget beating #1 Kentucky, or top 5 Pitt, or Missou and Holy Cross......the fact we lost to #2 Kansas and shot 29% or whatever it was....that’s all that mattered to some.
-
There were a few who hated Crean at the time. There was some restlessness because the classes were not balanced and the inability to recruit and develop bigs. There is more open hostility to Wojo than there was to Crean when he was the coach. The hostility really took off after he left.
My recall is some sniping about game coaching and the inability to adjust, but this was more of a frustration than hostility. Maybe Crean's improvement and embracing of the program history provided a cushion of satisfaction that kept things with him from reaching the current Wojo level. Also probably why the way he left created such vitriol.
-
I’d say his recruiting and transfers were a big topic as well. The thought was he could only recruit anchor classes and not get guys around the top players when he couldn’t sell a ton of playing time.
-
I remember us complaining that he could not recruit bigmen.
-
There was the outrage of getting to the Final Four and being blown out.....forget beating #1 Kentucky, or top 5 Pitt, or Missou and Holy Cross......the fact we lost to #2 Kansas and shot 29% or whatever it was....that’s all that mattered to some.
I’m imagining willie on scoop had it existed after that game...
“all you tan cream slurpers living in a fantasy world, he should be left in New Orleans to fish shrimp with Bubba”
-
Sounds like there were plenty of complaints against Crean even after he took us to the FF.
Fans ... can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em!
As to my point that Crean accomplished much more than Wojo at the same stage of their careers ... that qualifies me for Capt. Obvious status. And I still say it's not fair to say, "But if Crean didn't recruit Wade and didn't make it to the FF," because he did and he did.
Finally, as for the "next step" ...
The best coach in MU history was a guy whose only college coaching experience was at a tiny Catholic school, where he went 13-39 his last two years.
The second-best coach in MU history had one head coaching job, going 14-17 for a Sun Belt school, before we hired him.
The third-best coach in MU history had never coached a game at any level when Marquette hired him.
If and when Wojo leaves, how good will folks feel if we hire a replacement with any of the above resumes?
And why do some Scoopers feel we will have our pick of established, high-major coaches?