MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TallTitan34 on May 07, 2019, 04:38:03 PM
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It seems like a big divide on the board comes from what peoples expectations are for the program. So I am just curious what peoples expectations are for the program?
For me, once a coach has a team in place with his guys (4 years) I'd expect Marquette to make the tournament roughly every three of four years. I don't care if some years are as a high seed, or some years as a bubble team. First and foremost, make the tournament around 75% of the time. I think that's a lofty goal but doable at Marquette.
After that it's hard for me to define my expectations once making the tournament because it's such a crap shoot with so many variables. I guess reaching the second weekend every one in three years would satisfy me but again a lot would depend on the situation. Sometimes there will be matchups you should easily handle and other times there will be bad matchups. Sometimes you play an under-seeded Final Four team. If you can make the tournament 75% of the time though, I think tournament success will come.
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1) Among the highest revenue producers in college basketball.
2) Consistent Top 10 finisher and elite program.
3) Graduates them all, or almost all of them!
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With the money spent on this program, perennial top 25 capable of making a deep run each year.
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1) Among the highest revenue producers in college basketball.
2) Consistent Top 10 finisher and elite program.
3) Graduates them all, or almost all of them!
so you've not been happy since 78...
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To be a basketball blue blood. I'm just very patient.
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With the money spent on this program, perennial top 25 capable of making a deep run each year.
This is where I'm at.
I understand they may not quite make it every year, but that's my expectation.
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
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My expectations for the program are to constantly have a new thread on MUScoop every 2 weeks to ask what are my expectations for the program.
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Minimum expectation: To win 20 games (or tournament), not have major scandals, beat Wisconsin
Regular expectations: ncaa 4/5 years, usually in the top 25, be picked to win games in March, beat Wisconsin
Expectations if those are met: Xavier's record of getting to the second weekend, usually top 15, beat Wisconsin
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
I agree with this. Baseline of being good regularly and occasionally great, with the goal to become a consistent powerhouse.
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My expectations for the program are to constantly have a new thread on MUScoop every 2 weeks to ask what are my expectations for the program.
See, that could be a different thread. What are my expectations for Scoop?
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- Make the tournament 8 times each decade. The two times we miss there has to be a reason. 6 seniors graduated? Ok? 5 players left 3 seniors, 2 pros? ok. 3 guys transferred from the starting 5? No.
- Never finish below 4th in the Big East. We were damn close to doing that in the old Big East. We should NEVER finish below 4th, and 4th should be a disappointing finish. Depaul is a dumpster fire, St Johns has proven that they are never going to be anything other than a bubble team with some noise. Georgetown, is well, not getting it done. Providence is good less then once in a blue moon. Butler maybe less then providence now. Xavier lost Mack and look whack. Creighton isn't much without the younger mcderm. Seton Hall is somehow coming along. Nova is a perennial, so should be Marquette.
- Putting players into the nba should be a Marquette staple as it was with Buzz.
- Perennial top 25.
We spend a lot on our basketball, We've been to the top before, we've been consistantly great before, its time to start expecting these things.
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~~Compete each year for Beast title
~~Top 25 program every year
~~Make the dance every year
~~Consistent top 10 recruiting classes
~~Dynamic coach who gets most out of his players each year
~~Deep run in Dance periodically
~~Final 4 appearances at least once every decade
With MU's resources,the above should be expected, and Wojo's track record does not closely approach this
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so you've not been happy since 78...
2003 wasn't bad but generally, not as happy as I should be.
1978 was the Championship that wasn't, so technically I really haven't been happy since March 1977!
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no less than top half of Big East every year, top 3 most years
ranked or receiving votes every year
in NCAA tournament conversation every year
no off-court issues (arrests, NCAA issues, suspensions, ineligibility)
We have to be realistic. Someone said make the Final Four once a decade? We've been three times in 45 years. Even Duke had only been three times in the last 15.
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1. NCAA 4 of every 5 years
2. Fringe Top 25 in the 4 NCAA years
I have little NCAA expectations but assuming that by the law of averages they would win a few games in that 5 year span.
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2003 wasn't bad but generally, not as happy as I should be.
1978 was the Championship that wasn't, so technically I really haven't been happy since March 1977!
2003 was one year, not exactly what I'd call consistent top 10.
You didn't say actually win the championship just consistent top 10 so I said 78. But hey if you wanna extend your the MUBB misery a year go right ahead.
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
I like this.
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
Close enough
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
Close enough.
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
I'm on-board.
Curious... For you, how long would you give a coach who consistently fulfills expectations, but rarely achieves hopes?
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I'm on-board.
Curious... For you, how long would you give a coach who consistently fulfills expectations, but rarely achieves hopes?
Coachs job is to build the program. Plateau long enough and they will move on. The higher you build the program, the longer you are allowed to plateau
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My expectations for the program are to constantly have a new thread on MUScoop every 2 weeks to ask what are my expectations for the program.
This is awesome.
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5 year cycle in no particular order.
NIT
NCAA one & done
2 sweet 16's
1 elite 8
I would like more, but realistically you have to think a really good team is going to lose a player who enters the draft. That is what happen after our last Elite 8.
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5 year cycle in no particular order.
NIT
NCAA one & done
2 sweet 16's
1 elite 8
I would like more, but realistically you have to think a really good team is going to lose a player who enters the draft. That is what happen after our last Elite 8.
Since Al, how many of those cycles have actually happened?
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2003 was one year, not exactly what I'd call consistent top 10.
You didn't say actually win the championship just consistent top 10 so I said 78. But hey if you wanna extend your the MUBB misery a year go right ahead.
I was on campus both in 1977 and 1978. While 1978 was a great regular season, what happened in the NCAA really clouded that season. We were never the same again.
I still contend if we're well run, there's no reason we can't be a Villanova, Gonzaga, Duke or even Georgetown in its heyday. We need coaching stability, strong recruiting and a commitment from the top down to excellence.
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I was on campus both in 1977 and 1978. While 1978 was a great regular season, what happened in the NCAA really clouded that season. We were never the same again.
I still contend if we're well run, there's no reason we can't be a Villanova, Gonzaga, Duke or even Georgetown in its heyday. We need coaching stability, strong recruiting and a commitment from the top down to excellence.
And if it was easy there would be no need to pay recruits, runners and family members.
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No expectations. It is a form of recreation.
I appreciate MU trying to put a winning program on the floor.
But seriously, why blow a fuse over something that has no significant bearing on one's life.
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Top 25 every year.
Top 3 in conference every year.
In the Tournament every year and reach the second weekend once every 3-4 years.
For Marquette, I think these are high but completely reasonable expectations. Obviously we’d fall short sometimes, but those years should be looked at as disappointments and outliers.
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No expectations. It is a form of recreation.
I appreciate MU trying to put a winning program on the floor.
But seriously, why blow a fuse over something that has no significant bearing on one's life.
There's a correlation between the quality and quantity of applicants and school's sport success. If that in turn raises MU's perception as an institution it helps boost the value we get for our degree. That's why it's worth blowing a fuse
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There's a correlation between the quality and quantity of applicants and school's sport success. If that in turn raises MU's perception as an institution it helps boost the value we get for our degree. That's why it's worth blowing a fuse
Jeez, I bet MIT, Davidson or Ivy league grads are just crying ;D.
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Jeez, I bet MIT, Davidson or Ivy league grads are just crying ;D.
Now you're getting it.
But more seriously since it's highly unlikely through investment alone MU somehow jumps to 50 in the rankings, I'll take whatever helps.
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My expectations?
Heart break. I was born in 1975 and I’m proud say that only once did the program fail to meet my expectations.
Of course some years are more heartbreaking than others. Having already lost Sam & Joey, I’m confident 2020 will be a banner year. And that’s saying something because getting to 24 wins in Feb and a Top 10 ranking helped make 2019 especially heart breaking.
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And if it was easy there would be no need to pay recruits, runners and family members.
This is sad, but true. The HoopDreams anniversary article in another thread was eye opening in how it insinuated MU was no different than most all high D1 programs when it comes to making the sausage...ie recruiting and street runners. When someone referenced “goons on the street” in a tweet regarding MU hoops, that couldn’t have been more obvious...people here on Scoop were trying to come up with other definitions lol.....we would NEVER play that game.
While I don’t think we play the game to the level revealed by the recent FBI wiretaps case, it is naive to think we are spotless. I’m not telling anyone here anything when I say the whole system is corrupt. I would relish a Nick Nolte BLUE CHIPS moment where a real coach calls the whole thing out right at half time of a gigantic game he was coaching. I don’t think anything will ever change. Too much $$$$ involved.
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Tired of fighting the endless fight. It is what it is, also known as apathy.
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5 year cycle in no particular order.
NIT
NCAA one & done
2 sweet 16's
1 elite 8
I would like more, but realistically you have to think a really good team is going to lose a player who enters the draft. That is what happen after our last Elite 8.
You and I really close Bilsu.
Change one of those 1 and done's to a second-round appearance and that's about where I'd be. Final 4 once a decade. I'm 47. Another title before I die.
How many 5 years cycles have seen this?
93-97, 4 tourney's, 1 NIT, 2 2nd round, 1 Sweet 16, not quite there, but being what Dukiet left O' Neill left with, not too far away, Deane kept it going for a few years, but big fall off at end
02 - 06, 3 tourney's, 2 NITs, 1 Final 4, Final 4 helps make up for lack of other tourney success to some degree
09-13, 5 straight tourney's, 4 2nd round, 3 Sweet 16s, 1 Final 8, decent 5-year stretch
17 - 19, 2 tourney's, 1 NIT. So Wojo would need to make tourney next two years, at a minimum make 2nd weekend once to meet what I think MU should have as expectation for a program. Winning a tourney game next year and 2 2 years from now would indicate right trajectory.
Big East goals fall into place if you're doing enough damage in March. Top half almost every year. Compete for title more years than not. Win title at least once every cycle. Advance to Final 4 of league tourney almost every year. In championship game once every 2 or 3 years. Win BET once per cycle. Be the 2nd team thought of nationally when people think of the BE.
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You and I really close Bilsu.
Change one of those 1 and done's to a second-round appearance and that's about where I'd be. Final 4 once a decade. I'm 47. Another title before I die.
How many 5 years cycles have seen this?
93-97, 4 tourney's, 1 NIT, 2 2nd round, 1 Sweet 16, not quite there, but being what Dukiet left O' Neill left with, not too far away, Deane kept it going for a few years, but big fall off at end
02 - 06, 3 tourney's, 2 NITs, 1 Final 4, Final 4 helps make up for lack of other tourney success to some degree
09-13, 5 straight tourney's, 4 2nd round, 3 Sweet 16s, 1 Final 8, decent 5-year stretch
17 - 19, 2 tourney's, 1 NIT. So Wojo would need to make tourney next two years, at a minimum make 2nd weekend once to meet what I think MU should have as expectation for a program. Winning a tourney game next year and 2 2 years from now would indicate right trajectory.
Big East goals fall into place if you're doing enough damage in March. Top half almost every year. Compete for title more years than not. Win title at least once every cycle. Advance to Final 4 of league tourney almost every year. In championship game once every 2 or 3 years. Win BET once per cycle. Be the 2nd team thought of nationally when people think of the BE.
So, only 09-13 since Al. Got it.
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There's a correlation between the quality and quantity of applicants and school's sport success. If that in turn raises MU's perception as an institution it helps boost the value we get for our degree. That's why it's worth blowing a fuse
I have seen correlations in quantity (i.e., our big jump in # of applicants post-2003)...but could you provide some info showing a correlation between success and the quality of applicants? Not being snarky - just haven't seen anything like that.
Also - assuming higher-quality applicants follow sports success - is there any indication that more of the higher-quality applicants actually matriculate at MU? Or do they just add us to the long list of institutions they apply to...only to go to places like Northwestern, Georgetown or Vanderbilt?
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I have seen correlations in quantity (i.e., our big jump in # of applicants post-2003)...but could you provide some info showing a correlation between success and the quality of applicants? Not being snarky - just haven't seen anything like that.
Also - assuming higher-quality applicants follow sports success - is there any indication that more of the higher-quality applicants actually matriculate at MU? Or do they just add us to the long list of institutions they apply to...only to go to places like Northwestern, Georgetown or Vanderbilt?
As far as quality I suppose it doesn't necessarily mean better quality of applicants, my logical falacy was that the larger pool of applicants would be equally distributed among the top middle and bottom. But could be a bunch of never going to get in anyways applicants. It does increase selectivity either way which in turn boosts national rankings which, as flawed as they are, raises the profile of the university.
You'd need someone closer to the University to talk on matriculation
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Top 25 every year.
Top 3 in conference every year.
In the Tournament every year and reach the second weekend once every 3-4 years.
For Marquette, I think these are high but completely reasonable expectations. Obviously we’d fall short sometimes, but those years should be looked at as disappointments and outliers.
I'm with this, but I would change it to Top 5 in conference every year.
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Expectations:
--Consistently top half of BE, with frequent 1-3 finishes.
--NCAA most seasons (75%), with a second-weekend run (or more) every 3-4 years.
--Spend more weeks in the top 25 than out of it.
--People are far more surprised when we don't make NCAA than when we make it.
--aka Very high level program, but not a Blue Blood.
Hopes:
--Top 25 nearly all the time, with top 10 common.
--Top 1-3 in BE every year.
--NCAA second weekend at least 4 out of 5 years, and FF once or twice.
--aka Blue Blood
I lived through the Al era and sat in the Omni that night, and I would love for Wojo (or someone) to be the second coming of Al. But no amount of money can guarantee that, and I recognize that guys like Al, JTII, Wright or Few don't come along very often at smaller private schools.
Add me to the chorus of +1s on this.
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while I would love to see what Gooooo laid out, my "expectations" are a little different.
I expect MU basketball to be entertaining. I expect the players to be good kids who love playing basketball, play well and don't get into off-court issues. I expect to experience thrilling highs (like the Nova win two years ago) and upsetting lows (slide at the end of this season). I expect wins AND losses, and I don't expect perfection. I expect coaches to hustle on the recruiting trail, but I also expect "misses" and players that come and go. I expect that I might not always be satisfied with a coach or a player, but those things were not my decision to make. I expect to be a fan, to celebrate wins and commiserate with other fans on losses.
I am a fan because I want to be a fan - nobody forces anyone to cheer for a particular sports team. I view fandom mainly as a supportive endeavor, and I don't do the bandwagon thing. My teams are my teams, good or bad, win or lose. That's just how it is for me.
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Win Every Day
Remain not dismayed
Recruit one sub-6 foot chucker in every class
Stay competitive for at least 10 minutes of a tourney game
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For those who have high expectations, GOOD. You should have high expectations. As fans, we should never be content with where the program is and always be pushing for more. If we get back to Buzz level success? Great but we should want more. Get to Villanova level success? Great but we should want more. Get to Al level success? Great but we should want more. The goal of the basketball program should be to always be building the program. Fortunately, we have an administration that believes that and recognizes the importance of basketball to the university.
I liked what Brother Dgies said, there is no reason we can't build a Duke level program here. What do they have that we don't? There is something.....multiple decades of success. Duke wasn't born with blue blood or a silver spoon in their mouths. It had to be built over decades to get to the level it is at now. That is the level of success we should be striving for but also need to recognize the steps required to get there. It won't be done in a few years. It will take decades to build. But just because we aren't content doesn't mean we can't enjoy the ride.
Honestly, I don't think anyone here has different expectations. We all want Marquette to be the best damn program in the country and challenging for national titles every season....and winning them! We just disagree on how to get there.
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Win Every Day
Remain not dismayed
Recruit one sub-6 foot chucker in every class
Stay competitive for at least 10 minutes of a tourney game
Winning conference record 40% of the time
NCAA tournament 40% of the time
First round loss by 19 or 20
No more than 2 starters transferring in any year
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Win another national championship in my lifetime. That gives them probably between 30-50 years.
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Win another national championship in my lifetime. That gives them probably between 30-50 years.
If I had that kind of time left, I'd be a heck of a lot more patient then I am...unfortunately, father time isn't going to give me that long.
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so you've not been happy since 78...
You beat me too it. And if we can throw in that during the next few decades we averaged one sweet 16 every 16 years to make the math easier.
If Wojo isn't allowed to work the juco circuit - the way that Buzz did it - I believe making the tournament once every two years is likely par for all big East teams. I believe if Wojo is here at least another decade we will exceed that, but if we end up rotation coaches every 5 or so years then I think making the tournament about half the time and winning a first round d game every four years or so will be the norm.
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Winning conference record 40% of the time
NCAA tournament 40% of the time
First round loss by 19 or 20
No more than 2 starters transferring in any year
Be picked first and not even make any tournament of any kind
Tell the press you wouldn’t wipe your nose with your contract
Preach character revealed so the saps eat it up, then do many character revolting things behind the scenes
Get involved in a sexual Assault investigation by directly talking to the victim
Drive down a one way street the wrong way and crash the car in the process
Someone that will resign in mid June giving us no chance to sign any coach of any quality for the future
I can dream
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You beat me too it. And if we can throw in that during the next few decades we averaged one sweet 16 every 16 years to make the math easier.
If Wojo isn't allowed to work the juco circuit - the way that Buzz did it - I believe making the tournament once every two years is likely par for all big East teams. I believe if Wojo is here at least another decade we will exceed that, but if we end up rotation coaches every 5 or so years then I think making the tournament about half the time and winning a first round d game every four years or so will be the norm.
This false narrative that people are spewing that because a new Coach comes in it AUTOMATICALLY means a rebuild has got to stop. It really pisses me off to be honest..it depends on who the Coach is that is brought in. Why don't people understand that? Just because a school hires a new Coach does NOT automatically mean every recruit will ask out of his LOI, and every player will transfer. That's absurd, and not reality. I'm tired of seeing people say that. How many left when Buzz took over?? Exactly! It all depends on the Coach that is brought in, it's really that simple.
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This false narrative that people are spewing that because a new Coach comes in it AUTOMATICALLY means a rebuild has got to stop. It really pisses me off to be honest..it depends on who the Coach is that is brought in. Why don't people understand that? Just because a school hires a new Coach does NOT automatically mean every recruit will ask out of his LOI, and every player will transfer. That's absurd, and not reality. I'm tired of seeing people say that. How many left when Buzz took over?? Exactly! It all depends on the Coach that is brought in, it's really that simple.
How many. Let’s see, two of the incoming recruits, including one that played at Kansas. Then there was Scott Christopherson who left days after Buzz was hired, he ended up all Big 12. That’s three by my count.
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It's like clockwork...as I said before...or are you going to claim this isn't about Buzz either?? Will you EVER talk about how successful he was ON the court?? No, you won't...the ONLY on the court stuff I ever see you mention with him is his last year..just because you hated the guy(and don't say you didn't, you lying POS), doesn't mean the BE championship, the two sweet 16's and the Elite 8 after 5 years didn't happen. Sorry, you hated that he was successful on the court Chicos...but you can't take it away, as much as you try.
Lol. You do realize I have four coaches in there....right? Buzz should have won coach of the year in my opinion. His stewardship also led to the university’s decisions currently....funny how you never acknowledge his own actions, that of his staff, players, that led to what you deem is non commitment. Your hero made that bed.
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How many. Let’s see, two of the incoming recruits, including one that played at Kansas. Then there was Scott Christopherson who left days after Buzz was hired, he ended up all Big 12. That’s three by my count.
Three players that were essentially meaningless...what about the main guys...the amigos?? They all stayed, didn't they?? That's what mattered.
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Three players that were essentially meaningless...what about the main guys...the amigos?? They all stayed, didn't they?? That's what mattered.
Lol. Here are the three that left in those opening days.....meaningless? Oh boy. I wonder how that team the first year of Buzz would have done when DJ got hurt knowing a backup that would play in the NBA was there to take over.....but he wasn’t there because he left when Buzz was hired and we were crippled as a team as a result when DJ was hurt. Yup, meaningless....you sure got that one right.
Here’s for meaningless
Taylor was drafted 41st in the NBA draft in 2012....a third team All American and first team All Big 12.
Christopherson was an excellent shooter, something Buzz’s teams often lacked, and became all BiG 12. A career 44% shooter from 3 point land....shot 46% his senior year.
Williams went to Indiana for a year and finished his last three years at Ole Miss of the SEC, starting the majority of his college career. Not a great player by any stretch.
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For those who have high expectations, GOOD. You should have high expectations. As fans, we should never be content with where the program is and always be pushing for more. If we get back to Buzz level success? Great but we should want more. Get to Villanova level success? Great but we should want more. Get to Al level success? Great but we should want more. The goal of the basketball program should be to always be building the program. Fortunately, we have an administration that believes that and recognizes the importance of basketball to the university.
I liked what Brother Dgies said, there is no reason we can't build a Duke level program here. What do they have that we don't? There is something.....multiple decades of success. Duke wasn't born with blue blood or a silver spoon in their mouths. It had to be built over decades to get to the level it is at now. That is the level of success we should be striving for but also need to recognize the steps required to get there. It won't be done in a few years. It will take decades to build. But just because we aren't content doesn't mean we can't enjoy the ride.
Honestly, I don't think anyone here has different expectations. We all want Marquette to be the best damn program in the country and challenging for national titles every season....and winning them! We just disagree on how to get there.
Before Coach K came to Duke. MU and Duke were at relative parity program wise. In fact they went through a long walk in the wilderness prior to Bill Foster reviving the program. Coach K came and has stayed for 40 years. That makes a huge difference.
Al retired unnaturally young for a coach . One of the three biggest mistakes in MU history was the failure to replace Al with a guy like Denny Crum who was available and interested in the job. MU hires Denny and the golden years would have kept on going. The McCrays and All the great 80s Chicago players are coming our way etc.
Ok so what is done is done. The question is what is reasonable to expect now. I agree with TAMU the goal is to be a blue blood again.
Given that goal, in my view, The Crean/Buzz era taken as a whole needs to be the standard. If we get there we are in the mix of teams that are in that attractive third rung right below the Blue Bloods and Near Blue Bloods/Fallen Blue Bloods. If we stay in that third rung long enough we can make a move to the second tier.
I know there are those that dislike Crean and or Buzz , but their results showed where our program could be. In particular our years in the old Big East really showed what our team could be , those years we were always in the NCAA tournament. MU should be doing well in our league , which in the new configuration should be top 3 at worst 4th. We should have a realistic goal every year of making to the second week of the tournament with an occasional deeper run. We should be developing players who are multi year NBA players who can be All Stars or long term successful players with an occasional all time NBA great . All of this was achieved in the Crean /Buzz era.
I reject the notion we had to rebuild under Wojo. Wojo caused the rebuild . A better more experienced coach could and would have reloaded.
Our resources are superb. Starting out we have a contemporary urban school that is attractive to four year players. We play in a NBA arena that due to its proximity to campus is virtually an on campus arena for the purposes of rallying support from students. We have all the best training facilities and a willingness to spend on the program. The alumni group is loyal , dedicated and actually buys season tickets and Milwaukee is enough of a sports town so that when we have an outstanding team, local non alums will show interest.
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Lol. Here are the three that left in those opening days.....meaningless? Oh boy. I wonder how that team the first year of Buzz would have done when DJ got hurt knowing a backup that would play in the NBA was there to take over.....but he wasn’t there because he left when Buzz was hired and we were crippled as a team as a result when DJ was hurt. Yup, meaningless....you sure got that one right.
Here’s for meaningless
Taylor was drafted 41st in the NBA draft in 2012....a third team All American and first team All Big 12.
Christopherson was an excellent shooter, something Buzz’s teams often lacked, and became all BiG 12. A career 44% shooter from 3 point land....shot 46% his senior year.
Williams went to Indiana for a year and finished his last three years at Ole Miss of the SEC, starting the majority of his college career. Not a great player by any stretch.
Did, Wesley, Jerel and DJ stay...or did they transfer?? It's simple question...obviously you aren't capable of answering it.
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Did, Wesley, Jerel and DJ stay...or did they transfer?? It's simple question...obviously you aren't capable of answering it.
Yes, glad the seniors stayed. Glad they didn’t have a sibling that complicated things. Now, your incorr ct statement about meaningless....it’s a simple question...obviously you aren’t capable of making a rational statement which is why people keep calling you out. You are a great fan Guru, but you do need a snickers because the facts and you don’t pair well.
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Yes, glad the seniors stayed. Glad they didn’t have a sibling that complicated things. Now, your incorr ct statement about meaningless....it’s a simple question...obviously you aren’t capable of making a rational statement which is why people keep calling you out. You are a great fan Guru, but you do need a snickers because the facts and you don’t pair well.
Facts and me don't pare well?? Did Buzz or did he not, take MU to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and win a conference championship while he was at MU?? C'mon, you can admit it, can't you?? I want to see you answer it without constantly adding in all the bad stuff you didn't like about him. Forget about that just for ONE post, and answer...did Buzz have MAJOR success on the court during his time at MU or not??
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I expect in Wojo year 6 we still have zero tourney wins after all is said and done.
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Facts and me don't pare well?? Did Buzz or did he not, take MU to two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8, and win a conference championship while he was at MU?? C'mon, you can admit it, can't you?? I want to see you answer it without constantly adding in all the bad stuff you didn't like about him. Forget about that just for ONE post, and answer...did Buzz have MAJOR success on the court during his time at MU or not??
I have admitted Ed it...good basketball coach. Just admitted it again.
Now, do you think that meaningless loss of those players, including two guards would have helped MU that year, especially considering the injury that happened.....I mean being that they were meaningless and all, I suppose not...but humor me.
Buzz had some major success. He had one NCAA run after a not very good season. When he lost in the tournament we usually got blown out... it that only counts when Wojo or Crean lose. His team blew the game against Washington, but won some great ones in Miami and Syracuse. He was also the same coach that was licked first in the new Big East and got 6th, left us with a less than stellar roster. So, like many coaches...good and bad. Unfortunately a lot of off the court stuff that did damage to the university, but non alums and those that have a 100% just win baby approach don’t care about that part. Just win baby...who cares if we are an academic institution or crimes involved....just win!!!
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I expect in Wojo year 6 we still have zero tourney wins after all is said and done.
But at least you can still watch dozens of Utah games on tv...that’s the important part.
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This false narrative that people are spewing that because a new Coach comes in it AUTOMATICALLY means a rebuild has got to stop. It really pisses me off to be honest..it depends on who the Coach is that is brought in. Why don't people understand that? Just because a school hires a new Coach does NOT automatically mean every recruit will ask out of his LOI, and every player will transfer. That's absurd, and not reality. I'm tired of seeing people say that. How many left when Buzz took over?? Exactly! It all depends on the Coach that is brought in, it's really that simple.
Also depends on the buy in from players and the system. More often than not it stops or at least takes a step back. Let's pretend that hill, pierce, noskowiak, shayock and obviously sandy all stayed at MU, burton didn't transfer. If they were not going to fit in a Wojo a system it wouldn't matter how good they were. We saw that with Duane at TAMU vs MU for example.
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I reject the notion we had to rebuild under Wojo. Wojo caused the rebuild . A better more experienced coach could and would have reloaded.
You can reject it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.
Name me a team that failed to make the NIT, then lost it's coach, 5/6 of it's top players in terms of minutes played, and all but one member of it's recruiting class and then made the NCAA the next season. Bonus points if you can find a team that matches all that AND the top returning player in terms of minutes is the same level of player as Derrick Wilson.
90.9 mpg, 23.9 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 8.1 apg, 4.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 8.1 FGpg, 0.9 3Ppg
The stat line above? That's the combined 13-14 season averages of every player Wojo inherited. Keep in mind those averages were put together on a roster that couldn't even make the NIT....with a better coach coaching them! Wojo has more points returning from Markus Howard this year then he did from his entire first roster combined.
Expecting Wojo to reload that first season was not reasonable. Not close to reasonable. I could hear an argument that he should have been there by year 2 but I don't think that's realistic either. Wojo took two years to rebuild and since then has gone NCAA bubble team, NIT, NCAA high seed. We're projected to make the NCAAs again next season. If we do, I think two years of rebuild, one year of NIT, and three years of NCAA should reasonably meet expectations for a coach's first six years. Could others have done better? Probably. But would it be results worth firing a coach for? I don't think so, unless recruiting falls off and trajectory is trending down.
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Before Coach K came to Duke. MU and Duke were at relative parity program wise. In fact they went through a long walk in the wilderness prior to Bill Foster reviving the program. Coach K came and has stayed for 40 years. That makes a huge difference.
Al retired unnaturally young for a coach . One of the three biggest mistakes in MU history was the failure to replace Al with a guy like Denny Crum who was available and interested in the job. MU hires Denny and the golden years would have kept on going. The McCrays and All the great 80s Chicago players are coming our way etc.
Ok so what is done is done. The question is what is reasonable to expect now. I agree with TAMU the goal is to be a blue blood again.
Given that goal, in my view, The Crean/Buzz era taken as a whole needs to be the standard. If we get there we are in the mix of teams that are in that attractive third rung right below the Blue Bloods and Near Blue Bloods/Fallen Blue Bloods. If we stay in that third rung long enough we can make a move to the second tier.
I know there are those that dislike Crean and or Buzz , but their results showed where our program could be. In particular our years in the old Big East really showed what our team could be , those years we were always in the NCAA tournament. MU should be doing well in our league , which in the new configuration should be top 3 at worst 4th. We should have a realistic goal every year of making to the second week of the tournament with an occasional deeper run. We should be developing players who are multi year NBA players who can be All Stars or long term successful players with an occasional all time NBA great . All of this was achieved in the Crean /Buzz era.
I reject the notion we had to rebuild under Wojo. Wojo caused the rebuild . A better more experienced coach could and would have reloaded.
Our resources are superb. Starting out we have a contemporary urban school that is attractive to four year players. We play in a NBA arena that due to its proximity to campus is virtually an on campus arena for the purposes of rallying support from students. We have all the best training facilities and a willingness to spend on the program. The alumni group is loyal , dedicated and actually buys season tickets and Milwaukee is enough of a sports town so that when we have an outstanding team, local non alums will show interest.
What better, more experienced coach was coming to MU? And thus, your answer.
And even so, there are plenty of examples of more experienced coaches that had to rebuild in similar situations. Isn’t the bigger question why the Wizard Of BumbleTexas took a preseason 1st place pick team to 6th and no bid at all? That was the team we were left with.
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My expectations of Marquette cannot be stated in black and white terms. In fairness to Wojo, from the very beginning I was not a fan of hiring a Dukie who spent 15 years as an assistant before taking a head coaching position. It's as if an A10 or similar position to gain head coaching experience was beneath his Dukie dignity and only a program of Marquette's stature was worthy of him. All the talk about becoming the "Duke of the North" and the visit from a sportswriter (I think it was Gary Parrish) who reminised with Wojo about his floorslapping days at Duke did not sit well with me. I understand that Wojo was probably our best opportunity at the time. I admit I have to fight my bias in finding any positive things about him. With all that said, he has proven himself as a recruiter and this season brought us to a #10 ranking and the expectation of at least a #3 seed in the tourney.
I was very happy to be proven wrong at 23-4. It's easy to be on board when things are going so well, yet I worried that there seemed to be no Plan B if Markus was injured or having an off game. My wife and I were fortunate to be able to attend the Georgetown game in DC and when Markus went to the bench in the first few minutes with no points, Two words came to me. The first one was "OH". The Hoyas became the Sharks and they smelled blood. Wojo had to change gears and figure out something quickly. Sam took over and kept the entire team cool and calm, even when Gtown was down by one with what appeared to be the final possesion. To me, it was Marquette's finest hour. I thought "Wow! Wojo really does have a Plan B!".
Then there was the infamous tailspin. Again, my wife and I were fortunate to be able to attend the St. John's game in the BET. It looked like Wojo had finally righted the ship. Yes, I know St. John's played the day before and when "they're hot, they're hot and when they're not, they're not" but the way our team took over after St J's rallied within 6 points was awesome. I thought he had the team back on track and pumped up for a BET Championship and the NCAA.
I'm not going to rehash the tailspin other than to say it simply did not have to happen.
After lurking for years I finally decided to join Scoop after the end of this season. By then, the Murray State game sent me over to the Dark Side. I have been critical of Wojo because he seemed to be proving Einstein's definition of insanity- doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. I don't want him fired. This coming season, I want him to make me eat my words. I want him to learn from his mistakes. Without the Hausers this coming season and without Markus the following season Wojo, and Marquette, are at a critical point in the program.
Is it possible that Wojo can do a minor version of UVA's redemption from the UMBC game to Nat'l Champs? Yes. I think it is not probable though. Prove me wrong Wojo. I'd love that!
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Make the tourney.
Then its a crapshoot. Go deep (Sweet 16 or further) at least once every 4 or 5 years.
That's really it.
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But at least you can still watch dozens of Utah games on tv...that’s the important part.
I can too, it doesn't mean I should.
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I can too, it doesn't mean I should.
It’s hard for cheeks to understand how people on the west coast can watch pack 12 games. He’s not the brightest bulb.
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You can reject it all you want, but it doesn't make it true.
Name me a team that failed to make the NIT, then lost it's coach, 5/6 of it's top players in terms of minutes played, and all but one member of it's recruiting class and then made the NCAA the next season. Bonus points if you can find a team that matches all that AND the top returning player in terms of minutes is the same level of player as Derrick Wilson.
90.9 mpg, 23.9 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 8.1 apg, 4.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 8.1 FGpg, 0.9 3Ppg
The stat line above? That's the combined 13-14 season averages of every player Wojo inherited. Keep in mind those averages were put together on a roster that couldn't even make the NIT....with a better coach coaching them! Wojo has more points returning from Markus Howard this year then he did from his entire first roster combined.
Expecting Wojo to reload that first season was not reasonable. Not close to reasonable. I could hear an argument that he should have been there by year 2 but I don't think that's realistic either. Wojo took two years to rebuild and since then has gone NCAA bubble team, NIT, NCAA high seed. We're projected to make the NCAAs again next season. If we do, I think two years of rebuild, one year of NIT, and three years of NCAA should reasonably meet expectations for a coach's first six years. Could others have done better? Probably. But would it be results worth firing a coach for? I don't think so, unless recruiting falls off and trajectory is trending down.
Please refer to every post made by Ners on this matter. Thanks.
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I reject the notion we had to rebuild under Wojo. Wojo caused the rebuild . A better more experienced coach could and would have reloaded.
Brother Herm, are you kidding me?
You're one of the brighter posters on this board. You should know better.
The Cowboy's last year was a disaster. Yes, you and I could argue that it was because Vander Blue left and Todd Mayo was, well, Todd Mayo, brother of OJ. But the fact was that the Cowboy left a bare cupboard and there really wasn't much there.
About the only thing we could have done was make peace with the Cowboy. Not sure that was going to happen. When we began looking, there was nothing. Period.
Our choice was Ben Howland, Cuonzo Martin and Wojo. No, Shaka wasn't coming. Cuonzo has since cut and run for his second job and Howland, despite all his press, hasn't got Mississippi State to the top echelon of the SEC. That leaves Wojo and while I have some concern about Wojo's management skills, he is our coach and he inherited a dumpster fire.
I don't think for a moment he caused the rebuild. You can hold him accountable for us not being an elite program after five years -- and the dumpster fire that's burning now. But don't hold him accountable for things that happened before he arrived here.
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It’s hard for cheeks to understand how people on the west coast can watch pack 12 games. He’s not the brightest bulb.
I can watch every Pac 12 game if I want to but again, why would I? To watch mediocre basketball? To hear Bill Walton say "conference of champions" 21 times per game? As much of a hoops junkie that I am I draw the line somewhere and a Utah/Oregon State or Washington State/Cal game is definitely on the wrong side of the line.
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It’s hard for cheeks to understand how people on the west coast can watch pack 12 games. He’s not the brightest bulb.
Oh I get it just fine, I simply asked the question how you were since their distribution is cut down so much. You didn’t answer the question, but yeah I get the sports tv market just a little bit. 😀
I’d also wonder why someone was that committed to watching Utah basketball, but I am glad you are still able to watch.
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Please refer to every post made by Ners on this matter. Thanks.
Every post he made on this matter was stupid and ill informed. So my counter point would be don't do that.
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Please refer to every post made by Ners on this matter. Thanks.
Ners has an unholy and flat out wrong obsession with that team. To use him as a reference diminishes you.
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Please refer to every post made by Ners on this matter. Thanks.
He was never able to successfully answer the question:
Name me a team that failed to make the NIT, then lost it's coach, 5/6 of it's top players in terms of minutes played, and all but one member of it's recruiting class and then made the NCAA the next season. Bonus points if you can find a team that matches all that AND the top returning player in terms of minutes is the same level of player as Derrick Wilson.
So Ners' position was that it was reasonable to expect Wojo to do something that had never been done before by any coach. Or at least do something so rare that no one could think of an example.
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He was never able to successfully answer the question:
So Ners' position was that it was reasonable to expect Wojo to do something that had never been done before by any coach. Or at least do something so rare that no one could think of an example.
Sure, I will get scoffed at(not sure why, just stating a fact), but Duke and UK come right to mind as far as losing basically their whole starting 5 almost every year. Do they take a step back?? Virginia is going to lose 3 starters for sure this year(possibly a 4th), we will wait and see how they do this year. Not saying it would have been an easy task for Wojo to do in year one, but it could have been done. I don't frown on him so much for year one...but not making the tournament the year he had Henry, to me was inexcusable, and was the first obvious moment to me that he would struggle to Coach.
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Sure, I will get scoffed at(not sure why, just stating a fact), but Duke and UK come right to mind as far as losing basically their whole starting 5 almost every year. Do they take a step back?? Virginia is going to lose 3 starters for sure this year(possibly a 4th), we will wait and see how they do this year.
You didn't seem to read the question. Here you go:
Name me a team that failed to make the NIT, then lost it's coach, 5/6 of it's top players in terms of minutes played, and all but one member of it's recruiting class and then made the NCAA the next season. Bonus points if you can find a team that matches all that AND the top returning player in terms of minutes is the same level of player as Derrick Wilson.
I don't think there's ever been a time where Kentucky, Duke, Virginia have matched this criteria. Virginia this season most definitely doesn't meet the criteria.
Not saying it would have been an easy task for Wojo to do in year one, but it could have been done.
Yet there don't seem to be examples of any other coach being able to do it.....
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Sure, I will get scoffed at(not sure why, just stating a fact), but Duke and UK come right to mind as far as losing basically their whole starting 5 almost every year. Do they take a step back?? Virginia is going to lose 3 starters for sure this year(possibly a 4th), we will wait and see how they do this year. Not saying it would have been an easy task for Wojo to do in year one, but it could have been done. I don't frown on him so much for year one...but not making the tournament the year he had Henry, to me was inexcusable, and was the first obvious moment to me that he would struggle to Coach.
Assuming these teams did meet the qualifiers given (which they don't), you listed the National Champion and two blue bloods.
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Assuming these teams did meet the qualifiers given (which they don't), you listed the National Champion and two blue bloods.
And...your point is?? I'm glad you caught that...I knew full well they didn't meet the criteria, but I listed them there for a particular reason. See, if you can figure out why.
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You didn't seem to read the question. Here you go:
I don't think there's ever been a time where Kentucky, Duke, Virginia have matched this criteria. Virginia this season most definitely doesn't meet the criteria.
Yet there don't seem to be examples of any other coach being able to do it.....
Okay, it's not identical, but I will give you an example of someone that made the NCAA's the second year as Coach, and every year after that while he was at the school..(a total of 5 years). It should be noted that his first year there, he went 3-13 his first year there after losing...11!!! 11 players from the previous roster, that's essentially the whole team and lost 8 after that year..yet, the next year he had them in the NCAA's as an 8 seed and they made the round of 32.. Fred Hoiberg at Iowa State.
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Okay, it's not identical, but I will give you an example of someone that made the NCAA's the second year as Coach, and every year after that while he was at the school..(a total of 5 years). It should be noted that his first year there, he went 3-13 his first year there after losing...11!!! 11 players from the previous roster, that's essentially the whole team and lost 8 after that year..yet, the next year he had them in the NCAA's as an 8 seed and they made the round of 32.. Fred Hoiberg at Iowa State.
Hoiberg did it with transfers and JUCO's. It is far more difficult for MU and other private schools to get those kids into school for NCAA eligibility purposes due to having far more academic degree requirements that many schools do not have (Theology, Philosophy) and to get them to graduation by the completion of their eligibility.
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Hoiberg did it with transfers and JUCO's. It is far more difficult for MU and other private schools to get those kids into school for NCAA eligibility purposes due to having far more academic degree requirements that many schools do not have (Theology, Philosophy) and to get them to graduation by the completion of their eligibility.
First, he didn't give a qualifier...2nd, it doesn't have ot be harder for MU to accept those types of kids, Buzz got them in.
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First, he didn't give a qualifier...2nd, it doesn't have ot be harder for MU to accept those types of kids, Buzz got them in.
But it is harder, and because Buzz and his peeps blew it, it is harder than it was. Blame Buzz.
We don’t have Phys ed....none of those credits from a JUCO transfer. Billy is right about the Phil and Theo class requirements, where no public school requires that. Etc etc. You keep wanting to make it so easy and ignoring the realities...why?
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But it is harder, and because Buzz and his peeps blew it, it is harder than it was. Blame Buzz.
We don’t have Phys ed....none of those credits from a JUCO transfer. Billy is right about the Phil and Theo class requirements, where no public school requires that. Etc etc. You keep wanting to make it so easy and ignoring the realities...why?
I will keep reminding you...until you "get" it...which means I will be doing this for the rest of my life...
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith
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And...your point is?? I'm glad you caught that...I knew full well they didn't meet the criteria, but I listed them there for a particular reason. See, if you can figure out why.
I assume it is because you expect Marquette to be a blue blood, like the schools you listed, and just be able to reload with 5-star freshmen every year.
Here's the problem with that theory. Wojo was hired on April 1st, 2014. Here is the list of available top 50 recruits on April 1st, 2014 (per 247 composite):
#6 Myles Turner (committed to Texas 4/30/14)
#35 Montaque Gill-Caesar (Committed to Mizzou 8/2/14)
#40 Devonte Graham (committed to Kansas 5/2/19)
So given that Myles Turner is alleged to have been paid oodles to go to Texas, Gill-Caesar ended up being a backup player for San Diego State.....that leaves Wojo with beating out Kansas for Devonte Graham. Graham is good, but I don't think he was the difference between a losing season and the NCAA. I'm also not sure what available coach out there would have been able to outrecruit Bill Self.
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I assume it is because you expect Marquette to be a blue blood, like the schools you listed, and just be able to reload with 5-star freshmen every year.
Here's the problem with that theory. Wojo was hired on April 1st, 2014. Here is the list of available top 50 recruits on April 1st, 2014 (per 247 composite):
#6 Myles Turner (committed to Texas 4/30/14)
#35 Montaque Gill-Caesar (Committed to Mizzou 8/2/14)
#40 Devonte Graham (committed to Kansas 5/2/19)
So given that Myles Turner is alleged to have been paid oodles to go to Texas, Gill-Caesar ended up being a backup player for San Diego State.....that leaves Wojo with beating out Kansas for Devonte Graham. Graham is good, but I don't think he was the difference between a losing season and the NCAA. I'm also not sure what available coach out there would have been able to outrecruit Bill Self.
I said, his first year I can give him a pass, but that year with an NBA 1st round pick and not making the NCAA's?? I have a huge problem with that season. And I gave a similar(not exactly the same) example of what you were requesting above in Fred Hoiberg.
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Okay, it's not identical, but I will give you an example of someone that made the NCAA's the second year as Coach, and every year after that while he was at the school..(a total of 5 years). It should be noted that his first year there, he went 3-13 his first year there after losing...11!!! 11 players from the previous roster, that's essentially the whole team and lost 8 after that year..yet, the next year he had them in the NCAA's as an 8 seed and they made the round of 32.. Fred Hoiberg at Iowa State.
I said, his first year I can give him a pass, but that year with an NBA 1st round pick and not making the NCAA's?? I have a huge problem with that season. And I gave a similar(not exactly the same) example of what you were requesting above in Fred Hoiberg.
So....it sounds like Hoiberg needed to rebuild. Which is what this conversation was about.
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I will keep reminding you...until you "get" it...which means I will be doing this for the rest of my life...
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith
What am I supposed to get...false facts? Like the three players that left after Buzz hired weren’t meaningless as you claimed. Now you want to pretend because Buzz was allowed to do different things with players that we no longer can, it doesn’t make a difference. I could go on and on with you....jus as so many others have also done with you.
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First, he didn't give a qualifier...2nd, it doesn't have ot be harder for MU to accept those types of kids, Buzz got them in.
When Chicos says you're ignoring reality, it's just that. The rules changed in the middle of Buzz's tenure:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8077431/connecticut-huskies-9-others-sit-postseason-apr
New NCAA APR requirements led to UConn being the first high major program with an APR postseason ban. That was in 2012. That was also around when Buzz dialed it back on JUCOs. I believe McKay was the only one after that, and the staff worked extensively with him to insure he'd come in on track to graduate.
For the reasons listed above and the new APR rules, Wojo couldn't take JUCOs like Buzz or Hoiberg had. MU's course requirements makes it harder for them to graduate and that graduation difficulty makes it harder to stay NCAA tournament eligible. If Wojo & MU loaded up on JUCO players, they would face postseason bans that weren't there when Buzz first started and would make the desired success you want unattainable.