MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Marcus92 on April 16, 2019, 08:48:42 PM
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Let's assume for the sake of argument that Sam and/or Joey weren't happy with playing secondary roles to Markus within the offense. What exactly was Wojo supposed to do?
Should he have told Markus -- the reigning Big East Player of the Year, and considered one of the 10 best players in all of college basketball -- that he's not welcome back to Marquette for his senior season?
Many place all the blame on Wojo for not properly "managing" the situation. It's certainly the coach's responsibility to make sure players understand what's expected of them, and to build and maintain a cohesive team. But if, for instance, Joey sees himself as an alpha dog and believes the offense should revolve around him, no coach in the world can make him want something different. And no coach in the world would choose Joey as their offensive centerpiece over Markus.
There's obviously reason for concern when two starters decide to leave the program. But it doesn't automatically mean that Wojo mishandled anything. We may never fully know what drove the decision.
I know that's not going to reassure the "fire Wojo" crowd. Frankly, I'm tired of the whole argument. To me, it's irrelevant. I don't see him going anywhere before next season. Sam and Joey are gone, whatever the reasons. I'm more interested in what happens next. Will anyone else transfer? Do we bring in new players? We could learn a lot more about the future of the program in the coming weeks than we have in the past two days.
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Agreed. Let's start evaluating Wojo on his performance on the court and not the other issues or excuses of the past.
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He really didn’t have an alternative. But he dug his own grave by that point.
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I'm not sure how Wojo dug his own grave. By all accounts I've seen, Sam has been solidly on board with the program up until now. So what changed?
Questioning the offensive scheme isn't so simple. In each of the past three seasons, Marquette has ranked only behind Villanova in the Big East for offensive efficiency (including a Top 10 ranking nationally two years ago). That's a pretty good track record for getting the most out of a team on that end of the court -- while overcoming some clear challenges with roster balance. On top of that, Sam took more threes and more shots overall this season than ever before.
What should Wojo have done differently? Sam chose Marquette more than three years ago and helped recruit his brother to MU so they could play together. A year later, they decide to transfer. What's the wild card? Maybe it's Joey.
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At the end of the day its Wojo's job to win at a high level. If it's with Housers or walk-ons he just has to win. The rest of this is just reality TV bullcrap. He has more control of MU than anyone by a wide margin.
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I'm not sure how Wojo dug his own grave. By all accounts I've seen, Sam has been solidly on board with the program up until now. So what changed?
Questioning the offensive scheme isn't so simple. In each of the past three seasons, Marquette has ranked only behind Villanova in the Big East for offensive efficiency (including a Top 10 ranking nationally two years ago). That's a pretty good track record for getting the most out of a team on that end of the court -- while overcoming some clear challenges with roster balance. On top of that, Sam took more threes and more shots overall this season than ever before.
What should Wojo have done differently? Sam chose Marquette more than three years ago and helped recruit his brother to MU so they could play together. A year later, they decide to transfer. What's the wild card? Maybe it's Joey.
When Sam developed and proved himself to be a potential star, an All-Conference performer, Wojo could have coached the team to acknowledge this. An inability, or disinterest, in making Sam anything more than an a wing outlet. Markus is a phenomenal scorer and a great player, but he had a near historic usage rate. And given the offense and direction of the team during the slide at the end of the year, there is nothing to insinuate that would have changed next year.
No, you don't banish Markus. But its a coaches job to manage his star in a way that allows the team to shine the best collectively, which doesn't mean dedicating yourself to the Markus Show at the expense of others. Sam and Joey likely saw that Wojo didn't have a plan or desire for that, next year would be more 40%+ usage rate basketball with Howard, for better or for worse, and made a choice.
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I'm not sure how Wojo dug his own grave. By all accounts I've seen, Sam has been solidly on board with the program up until now. So what changed?
Questioning the offensive scheme isn't so simple. In each of the past three seasons, Marquette has ranked only behind Villanova in the Big East for offensive efficiency (including a Top 10 ranking nationally two years ago). That's a pretty good track record for getting the most out of a team on that end of the court -- while overcoming some clear challenges with roster balance. On top of that, Sam took more threes and more shots overall this season than ever before.
What should Wojo have done differently? Sam chose Marquette more than three years ago and helped recruit his brother to MU so they could play together. A year later, they decide to transfer. What's the wild card? Maybe it's Joey.
Wojo has a history of allowing (encouraging?) "hero" ball. When he did it with Carlino and Ellenson nobody blinked because there wasn't much else on those teams. Two years ago, he had 2 heroes (Rowsey and Markus) and Sam patiently waited. He preferred a more balanced team oriented style but sacrificed. This year they actually had a team, but once Markus had a couple of those 50 point outbursts Wojo either lost control of that concept or actually thought Markus totally dominating the ball was their beast chance to win. Even after they beat Georgetown on the road WITHOUT Markus it didn't sink in for Wojo. And when things started going south and Markus struggled all Wojo did was double down on EXTRA Markus. We lost the Big East, were humiliated in the tourney and along the way Wojo lost the team. Finally, he lost Sam and Joey. What could Wojo have done last week to save this situation? Probably nothing. He had already blown those chances in November, December, January, February and March. Especially in February and March.
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Wojo could’ve very easily sat Markus during the losing streak and would’ve have had (legit) cover with the wrist injury. Instead, he chose not to tighten the leash as Markus dribbled into double teams, took hero shots and played cowboy ball while Sam and the other players frustratingly looked on. Had Wojo reined in Markus in the last few games Sam might have recognized Wojo would be willing to establish control in similar situations into next year, should those situations arise. All trust and credibility was blown and Sam and Joey decided to take their games elsewhere. Wojo could’ve stopped this dead in its tracks and had the perfect CYA with the injured wrist. But no, and here we are.
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Amen Marcus92. Well said.
I haven't looked at Stats, but the last few games of the year it seemed to me that you could see the frustration on Sam's face that the offense wasn't going more through him and the result was him heaving up bad shots out of frustration. I felt like he contributed to a lot of empty possessions. As for Joey, I feel he hit the wall and was making more mistakes than positive contributions (again killing possessions for MU with turnovers or poor shots). I assumed that Wojo was trying to keep the Hausers (his other stars) happy by continuing to play Joey rather than doing what he normally does which is yank people after a stupid play.
Let's see what the next move is and get back to living in the here and now. For the record I loved watching all those kids and certainly respect the Hauser's ability to do what they feel is right for them. I don't agree with it and it does not make sense to me, but let's get the next men up and kick some a$$ next year. (Preemptory "shh!" to anyone who interprets these comments as unfair negative criticism to "kids"... I am not tweeting negative comments to them or bad mouthing them. To the contrary, I believe they are great kids and thank them for their contributions to MUBB, just stating an observation regarding the MU basketball program).
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He should have re-programmed your simulation. That is the only way to beat the Kobayashi Maru you present.
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Wojo could’ve very easily sat Markus during the losing streak and would’ve have had (legit) cover with the wrist injury. Instead, he chose not to tighten the leash as Markus dribbled into double teams, took hero shots and played cowboy ball while Sam and the other players frustratingly looked on. Had Wojo reined in Markus in the last few games Sam might have recognized Wojo would be willing to establish control in similar situations into next year, should those situations arise. All trust and credibility was blown and Sam and Joey decided to take their games elsewhere. Wojo could’ve stopped this dead in its tracks and had the perfect CYA with the injured wrist. But no, and here we are.
An interesting argument. Maybe in hindsight this works but I think conventional wisdom says that when you are playing for a conference title and high seed you don't sit your All American if he's cleared to play.
That being said, it is clear that the right buttons were not pushed from February 27th to April 15th. Wojo will learn from it or he will be gone.
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Don't see too many Star Trek references on Scoop. Nice one.
Maybe another point to consider is what Markus takes away from the whole situation. He's improved as a player every year -- becoming the first consensus All-American at MU since Jae Crowder. But the truly great players find ways to make everyone around them better. That might be his biggest challenge now.
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Don't see too many Star Trek references on Scoop. Nice one.
Maybe another point to consider is what Markus takes away from the whole situation. He's improved as a player every year -- becoming the first consensus All-American at MU since Jae Crowder. But the truly great players find ways to make everyone around them better. That might be his biggest challenge now.
Agreed. I know Markus is smart enough to see his All American status is based on the first 27 games, not the last 7. This team was in desperate need of either:
1. someone else who can create his own shot, or
2. a better offensive scheme.
Hopefully its both, or Wojo is gone after this year.
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Wojo should have forced Grimes to Marquette or willed Chartouny to be the pass-first PG last year's team needed. With a pass first PG who could break down defenses, everybody would have gotten their shots. Wojo took what he had, a team without guards, and made Markus the defacto PG, even thought the only thing about his game that said PG was his stature. He had no choice. So MU had a shoot first, second, third player running the point. And it worked until said player's shot stopped falling. Of course, the two guys who left also saw their shot stop falling at the same time.
Could Wojo have retooled his offense? Sure. Like Knight did for Steve Alford. Or Dale Brown for Machmoud Abdul-Rauf. Painter sure let Edwards take a lot of shots. It could have been more egalitarian, but it would have required somebody else to run the point. And there was no one else. Sure, Sam did a nice job against Georgetown and Sacar managed to dribble the ball up the floor without hurting himself, but no one can say that Sacar initiated offense.
In the end, Wojo played the cards he had. The result is that two players are leaving because they did not like their usage, or the usage of Markus.
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He really didn’t have an alternative. But he dug his own grave by that point.
No Wojo did not. The Hausers saying they wanted to be more of a focus and/or playing without MH or they were leaving is an ultimatum. This didn’t happen overnight, it goes back to last season and the talk of quitting if Markus comes back at least a couple of weeks.
Was Wojo supposed to push Markus out? Is he supposed to hypnotize the Hauser family? Of course not.
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Wojo should have forced Grimes to Marquette or willed Chartouny to be the pass-first PG last year's team needed. With a pass first PG who could break down defenses, everybody would have gotten their shots. Wojo took what he had, a team without guards, and made Markus the defacto PG, even thought the only thing about his game that said PG was his stature. He had no choice. So MU had a shoot first, second, third player running the point. And it worked until said player's shot stopped falling. Of course, the two guys who left also saw their shot stop falling at the same time.
Could Wojo have retooled his offense? Sure. Like Knight did for Steve Alford. Or Dale Brown for Machmoud Abdul-Rauf. Painter sure let Edwards take a lot of shots. It could have been more egalitarian, but it would have required somebody else to run the point. And there was no one else. Sure, Sam did a nice job against Georgetown and Sacar managed to dribble the ball up the floor without hurting himself, but no one can say that Sacar initiated offense.
In the end, Wojo played the cards he had. The result is that two players are leaving because they did not like their usage, or the usage of Markus.
Your defense of Wojo is now a desperate dive into the obtuse.
Who, exactly, is responsible for building the team?
"Marquette couldn't win because the team didn't have a PG!"
Yea. Ok. Asserting that as a defense is not just imperceptive but one of the most doltish comments ever made on Scoop.
You are now merely throwing out words.
And the Hausers are not leaving solely on dissatisfaction with how they are being employed. The situation is far more more nuanced.
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Wojo should have forced Grimes to Marquette or willed Chartouny to be the pass-first PG last year's team needed. With a pass first PG who could break down defenses, everybody would have gotten their shots. Wojo took what he had, a team without guards, and made Markus the defacto PG, even thought the only thing about his game that said PG was his stature. He had no choice. So MU had a shoot first, second, third player running the point. And it worked until said player's shot stopped falling. Of course, the two guys who left also saw their shot stop falling at the same time.
Could Wojo have retooled his offense? Sure. Like Knight did for Steve Alford. Or Dale Brown for Machmoud Abdul-Rauf. Painter sure let Edwards take a lot of shots. It could have been more egalitarian, but it would have required somebody else to run the point. And there was no one else. Sure, Sam did a nice job against Georgetown and Sacar managed to dribble the ball up the floor without hurting himself, but no one can say that Sacar initiated offense.
In the end, Wojo played the cards he had. The result is that two players are leaving because they did not like their usage, or the usage of Markus.
C'mon, Tower. You're talking like Wojo walked in off the street to coach this team back in October.
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Was Wojo supposed to push Markus out? Is he supposed to hypnotize the Hauser family? Of course not.
No, just rein him in. If he is forcing bad shots and not playing within the offense, all Wojo has to do is have him take a seat. How do you bench an all-american? You're the coach, it's your ass on the line. You just do. If you need an excuse, blame the wrist. Would anyone here dispute that Markus' wrist injury actually was affecting his game? You have all the cover you need. This way the Hausers know that they can trust Wojo in the future.
I think it was the SH game at the garden, Sam was white hot and hitting everything within the offense, Markus comes back in after another wrist injury and starts throwing up cowboy shots missing everything. So how does Sam respond? Doing the same, probably thinking that if anyone is going to be putting up garbage it might as well be him, the guy who was hitting everything earlier. You could sense the frustration. Obviously I don't know what is going on in Sam's head, but had Wojo demonstrated an ability or even a willingness to rein in Markus, I am guessing the Hausers would still be here.
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No Wojo did not. The Hausers saying they wanted to be more of a focus and/or playing without MH or they were leaving is an ultimatum. This didn’t happen overnight, it goes back to last season and the talk of quitting if Markus comes back at least a couple of weeks.
Was Wojo supposed to push Markus out? Is he supposed to hypnotize the Hauser family? Of course not.
He was supposed to clearly define a role for them within the team concept. He was supposed to handle Markus better so the ball kept moving.
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And the Hausers are not leaving solely on dissatisfaction with how they are being employed. The situation is far more more nuanced.
Having your feelings hurt and quitting because your coach told you didn’t play with enough heart shows......a lack of heart.
I sincerely wish them well. Great players, seemed like decent guys. I also wish they stayed. The grass isn’t always greener and I fear for them that’s what they’ll find. On some level this is another example of why players shouldn’t “stay home” for college or play in home city as a pro. Too many people in your ear.
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Having your feelings hurt and quitting because your coach told you didn’t play with enough heart shows......a lack of heart.
I sincerely wish them well. Great players, seemed like decent guys. I also wish they stayed. The grass isn’t always greener and I fear for them that’s what they’ll find. On some level this is another example of why players shouldn’t “stay home” for college or play in home city as a pro. Too many people in your ear.
This is pretty much where I'm at.
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In the end, Wojo played the cards he had. The result is that two players are leaving because they did not like their usage, or the usage of Markus.
I agree that Wojo played the cards he had, no doubt about that. But let's not act like he isn't responsible for putting together the deck of cards that he was playing with.
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Let's assume for the sake of argument that Sam and/or Joey weren't happy with playing secondary roles to Markus within the offense. What exactly was Wojo supposed to do?
Should he have told Markus -- the reigning Big East Player of the Year, and considered one of the 10 best players in all of college basketball -- that he's not welcome back to Marquette for his senior season?
Many place all the blame on Wojo for not properly "managing" the situation. It's certainly the coach's responsibility to make sure players understand what's expected of them, and to build and maintain a cohesive team. But if, for instance, Joey sees himself as an alpha dog and believes the offense should revolve around him, no coach in the world can make him want something different. And no coach in the world would choose Joey as their offensive centerpiece over Markus.
There's obviously reason for concern when two starters decide to leave the program. But it doesn't automatically mean that Wojo mishandled anything. We may never fully know what drove the decision.
I know that's not going to reassure the "fire Wojo" crowd. Frankly, I'm tired of the whole argument. To me, it's irrelevant. I don't see him going anywhere before next season. Sam and Joey are gone, whatever the reasons. I'm more interested in what happens next. Will anyone else transfer? Do we bring in new players? We could learn a lot more about the future of the program in the coming weeks than we have in the past two days.
I'm not in the fire Wojo camp, and there isn't a whole lot he could have done about this in April 2019. But he is the most responsible for this. He is paying for what he currently believes and has believed as a coach. He believes in letting his best player dominate the ball and that when your best player shoots it is a good possession. Not installing a team offense where ball movement is a priority. I think when you are at our level, where your stars are not can't miss NBA guys, you need a PG who will get everybody involved. There is a price for not having one of those. You can say he tried and JC didn't turn out to be that guy, but this is something that should be planned for years ahead.
I think Wojo learned a hard lesson this season. I still think he is going to end up a good D-1 coach, but more and more I get the feeling it won't be here.
Finally, the older I get, the more I appreciate how difficult the job of an NCAA coach is in the current world. You have to balance the need to win with the career ambitions of your players. Al McGuire cared about his guys, but mostly as far as basketball is concerned his only worry was winning games. With the high transfer rate, it becomes much more difficult to keep those glue guys happy and in one place. Especially when you haven't built up some equity in your coaching prowess.
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Having your feelings hurt and quitting because your coach told you didn’t play with enough heart shows......a lack of heart.
I sincerely wish them well. Great players, seemed like decent guys. I also wish they stayed. The grass isn’t always greener and I fear for them that’s what they’ll find. On some level this is another example of why players shouldn’t “stay home” for college or play in home city as a pro. Too many people in your ear.
Spatial separation from the old man will help the brothers grow. (They should not go to Madison for many reasons but getting room to figure out things out for themselves is in some ways the biggest...)
But the parental dislike of Wojo is not without significant merit.
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This whole thing smells like outside influences to me i.e. parents and others interfering. I'm putting it on the boys for leaving, not the coach. I'd understand if they were taking a shot at going pro, but not for how they were used. You gotta earn the minutes and "focus" you get on the team. Howard is simply a better player right now. That said, they are a critical part of the team and have their roles. So get better if you want to be the focus, but don't quit.
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I agree that some players should leave the area to go to school.To many people in your ear.Joey and Sam should have probably went to different schools since there games are very similar.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
A team oriented approach where the first several possessions of every game went through Joey Hauser, who ultimately would fail miserably.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
I heard Broeker is going to release a heavily redacted version to the BoT to review.
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A team oriented approach where the first several possessions of every game went through Joey Hauser, who ultimately would fail miserably.
Lol but no different than posting up Otule, STJ or Heldt on the 1st possession. What happens on possessions 2-44 is what interests me.
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There have been some good points on both sides in this thread.
Saying Wojo had no other option at PG except Markus is a fact, but it's also not a very good excuse. He's not an NBA coach who is limited by the talent the GM brings in; he is also the GM and is personally responsible for the talent. He swung and missed at a couple of highly rated PGs, and I don't mind that, but his Plan B sucked and it hurt us a lot this season. I don't see who that could be on except Wojo.
It's also on Wojo IMHO that he didn't insist upon the team-oriented offense that he claimed to favor. I don't think "just tell Markus not to shoot every time" is as easy as some believe, but Wojo was able to impress the importance of getting others involved on Rowsey for most of the previous season. So it's not impossible. Still, Markus is who he is; he has poor court vision, a decent-at-best handle and lacks the drive-and-dish instinct. He is an elite scorer, so I'm certain that Wojo mostly felt "I'm gonna let my elite scorer score."
The notion that the victory at Georgetown without Markus should have "proven" something to Wojo is a little simplistic. Yes, Markus got hurt and Sam scored 31 in that game and we won without Markus. But over the next 4 games, all great wins, Sam had 25, 19, 20 and 19 while Markus had 24, 23, 31 and 32. They coexisted just fine. Actually, way way way better than just fine. They coexisted so well that we were a top-10 team and projected 3-seed. Was the resentment festering even then?
And then, in our showdown with Nova, Sam and Joey were MIA and Markus had 38. If Markus isn't great, we lose that game by 20. So what should that have reinforced to Wojo? That Markus shouldn't be shooting so much?
Down the stretch, as the whole thing unraveled, Markus played too much hero ball, Sam missed numerous shots that could have put us in position to win games, Joey was on a milk carton, and Wojo thrashed helplessly for solutions. It was painful for any MU fan to watch. By then, it was probably too late to change the way we played, especially given that the formula had mostly worked well for the preceding 3+ months.
Again, I'm not "excusing" any parts of the dynamic. It is Wojo's job to get the right pieces and then to make them all fit properly. It is a huge part of his job to manage egos. He clearly didn't succeed. He did have alternatives, but in his judgment they weren't better than what he chose to live and die with, and now the program is paying the consequences.
Clearly, the Hausers -- and I include Daddy and Mommy in that group -- lost confidence in and respect for Wojo. They felt he misled them, and they felt he and his program weren't best for Sam and Joey. So they turned to what they felt was their alternative -- quitting and going elsewhere. It happens in college basketball all the time.
I wish them well (unless they decide to join F%cky) and, as a fan, I naturally hope our program recovers. If Wojo coaches us to that recovery, he will deserve a fat, long-term contract. If not, he will deserve a pink slip. That's the university's alternative.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
Rocket surgeon is julian Assange's doppelganger, let's see what he can find.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
You know what I want????
I WANT TO KNOW WHY I HAD TO GO TO THE...FREAKING...DODDS...BOARD...TO HEAR ABOUT THIS LETTER.
What do I want?
I WANT MY MONEY BACK. REFUND MY SUBSCRIPTION NOW PLUS 25%! NOW!
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
They should have come to us -- I believe we are 3-0 in Scoop-led letter writing campaigns. Hauser's -- 0-1.
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You know what I want????
I WANT TO KNOW WHY I HAD TO GO TO THE...FREAKING...DODDS...BOARD...TO HEAR ABOUT THIS LETTER.
What do I want?
I WANT MY MONEY BACK. REFUND MY SUBSCRIPTION NOW PLUS 25%! NOW!
No problemo. You can use this as many times as you like to recoup your subscription fee, as this is our only currency.
(http://couponscodesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Arbys-Printable-Coupons-Vaild-mobile-2019.png)
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No problemo. You can use this as many times as you like to recoup your subscription fee, as this is our only currency.
(http://couponscodesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Arbys-Printable-Coupons-Vaild-mobile-2019.png)
What's the exchange rate of Scoop-Bucks to Dodds-nickels?
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No problemo. You can use this as many times as you like to recoup your subscription fee, as this is our only currency.
(http://couponscodesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Arbys-Printable-Coupons-Vaild-mobile-2019.png)
Dude, that's expired. No self-respecting Arby's is gonna accept that.
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Dude, that's expired. No self-respecting Arby's is gonna accept that.
The subtlety of this. Just great.
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For those who think Wojo should be judged on basketball results only - How would you grade him?
5 years, no regular season championships (even this year in a very down Big East), no conference tournament championships, 2 tournament appearances with 0 wins. One year where the team was ranked.
A lot of people said he would be held accountable after 5 years (Because he chose the slow and steady rebuild approach). Here we are and i still hear a lot of excuses.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
Not shocking, I'm waiting for more information that gets worse.
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Here are my alternatives:
- When Markus wasn't 100%, don't play him so many minutes. He didn't play against Georgetown and we managed. He clearly wasn't right at the end of the season & the team struggled because of that.
- When you say "the strength of our team is our team", let that play out on the court as well. Script plays for other guys. If players don't get the ball to those other guys, let them sit on the bench for a bit so you can explain and reinforce that the strength of the team is indeed the team.
- Push other players in the media. Yes, Markus has a compelling story, but it's not the only compelling story on the team. The coach can influence how the team is covered, do that to promote your other leaders.
- Going further back, this comes down to recruiting. We needed someone to take Markus off the ball. It's better for Markus & the rest of the team. Maybe McEwen will be that guy, but clearly Chartouny wasn't a good fit & that comes down to staff evaluations.
- Frankly...there are I'm sure a dozen other things that could've been done. Ultimately, it is the job of the head coach to assemble a roster & keep it together. I believe 100% that Wojo was aware there were issues. That being the case, it was his job to make it work. That's what he's paid for. So the question of what was Wojo's alternative is answered simply by "fix it" because that's why he was hired to sit in that seat in the first place.
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For those who think Wojo should be judged on basketball results only - How would you grade him?
5 years, no regular season championships (even this year in a very down Big East), no conference tournament championships, 2 tournament appearances with 0 wins. One year where the team was ranked.
A lot of people said he would be held accountable after 5 years (Because he chose the slow and steady rebuild approach). Here we are and i still hear a lot of excuses.
I see a coach that took over a last place team and 5 years later had that team poised to win the BE, and a team that would be the heavy favorite in year 6. But then the wheels started coming off.
One wheel came off in the late season slide. Wheel two came off in the BET & NCAA tournament. Wheel 3 came off when the Hausers left.
Now year 6 is about seeing if Wojo can put the wheels back on or if the last wheel comes off.
Roster additions for next year, 2020 recruiting class, having a strong season...put those wheels back on and Wojo recovers. If all the wheels come off, then Wojo is gone.
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Here are my alternatives:
- When Markus wasn't 100%, don't play him so many minutes. He didn't play against Georgetown and we managed. He clearly wasn't right at the end of the season & the team struggled because of that.
- When you say "the strength of our team is our team", let that play out on the court as well. Script plays for other guys. If players don't get the ball to those other guys, let them sit on the bench for a bit so you can explain and reinforce that the strength of the team is indeed the team.
- Push other players in the media. Yes, Markus has a compelling story, but it's not the only compelling story on the team. The coach can influence how the team is covered, do that to promote your other leaders.
- Going further back, this comes down to recruiting. We needed someone to take Markus off the ball. It's better for Markus & the rest of the team. Maybe McEwen will be that guy, but clearly Chartouny wasn't a good fit & that comes down to staff evaluations.
- Frankly...there are I'm sure a dozen other things that could've been done. Ultimately, it is the job of the head coach to assemble a roster & keep it together. I believe 100% that Wojo was aware there were issues. That being the case, it was his job to make it work. That's what he's paid for. So the question of what was Wojo's alternative is answered simply by "fix it" because that's why he was hired to sit in that seat in the first place.
PREACH!!!! This is so spot on
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Here are my alternatives:
- When Markus wasn't 100%, don't play him so many minutes. He didn't play against Georgetown and we managed. He clearly wasn't right at the end of the season & the team struggled because of that.
- When you say "the strength of our team is our team", let that play out on the court as well. Script plays for other guys. If players don't get the ball to those other guys, let them sit on the bench for a bit so you can explain and reinforce that the strength of the team is indeed the team.
- Push other players in the media. Yes, Markus has a compelling story, but it's not the only compelling story on the team. The coach can influence how the team is covered, do that to promote your other leaders.
- Going further back, this comes down to recruiting. We needed someone to take Markus off the ball. It's better for Markus & the rest of the team. Maybe McEwen will be that guy, but clearly Chartouny wasn't a good fit & that comes down to staff evaluations.
- Frankly...there are I'm sure a dozen other things that could've been done. Ultimately, it is the job of the head coach to assemble a roster & keep it together. I believe 100% that Wojo was aware there were issues. That being the case, it was his job to make it work. That's what he's paid for. So the question of what was Wojo's alternative is answered simply by "fix it" because that's why he was hired to sit in that seat in the first place.
My only minor nit is that Wojo did push other players in the media. He probably said 100 times that Sam was the backbone of the team, was one of the most underrated players in the country, was one of the best players in the BEast, etc. He gushed about Joey, especially in the first half of the season, called him a great player with a great future, and defended him when he was struggling.
Otherwise, can't argue at all with what you say or the way you say it.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
When people on here criticize me "what do you mean the team PLEADED with Wojo to make changes? You're being dramatic."
Well........
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What was Wojo's alternative? Seriously??
He's the head coach. If that means benching Markus because he's insurbordinate and freelancing when you've told him not to, ignoring play calls and doing his own thing, then you bench Markus. Do it as often as it takes for him to understand.
If he complains or leaves then he leaves, but you in turn build an incredible amount of trust that that crap won't be tolerated. Now you've got 12 guys who will run through a wall for you because you kept your word after their constant requests for change. That establishes a culture of compliance and accountability. This is basic stuff.
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When people on here criticize me "what do you mean the team PLEADED with Wojo to make changes? You're being dramatic."
Well........
Or your could say they tried to strongarm wojo, and he appropriately resisted.
They probably also thought more people quit leave the team to support them when they decided to quit.
Maybe they didn't have as much support from teammates as they thought!
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- Push other players in the media. Yes, Markus has a compelling story, but it's not the only compelling story on the team. The coach can influence how the team is covered, do that to promote your other leaders.
As a former media member, I will say there is only so much MU can do to dictate stories. The media mindset is to report the big stories. People want to hear about star players, so those are the stories the media seeks out to tell.
Markus Howard is an All American, so he gets the most attention. The Hauser brothers made for a nice number 2 story with the family angle. Other than that, the rest of the players are small potatoes from a newsworthy standpoint.
The Matt Heldt, Xavier, crying Wojo story happened organically. It got the attention it deserved. If other interesting stories would've happened organically, I am sure they would've been covered. But the media has little interest in being the PR department for Marquette.
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Right or wrong, Wojo decided the best way to win was to ride his all-American as far as he could take them.
It worked beyond all our expectations for 3/4ths of the season. People here weren't complaining about Markus or the coaching when he dropped 45 on Buffalo or 45 on K-State or 53 on Creighton. In fact, we had a long unnecessary debate after the Creighton game about Markus inbounding the pass on the final shot instead of taking the final shot.
And then Markus got hurt and it all went to poop. Could Wojo have adjusted better at that point? 100 percent yes. But so suggest he was wrong all along when his strategy was delivering MUs best results in a very long time is the ultimate in Monday Morning QBing.
What I'd be really interested in seeing is what was MU's +/- in that 1-6 stretch with Markus off the court. I don't have the time (and probably not the tools) to do that at the moment, but if someone else does ...
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Right or wrong, Wojo decided the best way to win was to ride his all-American as far as he could take them.
It worked beyond all our expectations for 3/4ths of the season. People here weren't complaining about Markus or the coaching when he dropped 45 on Buffalo or 45 on K-State or 53 on Creighton. In fact, we had a long unnecessary debate after the Creighton game about Markus inbounding the pass on the final shot instead of taking the final shot.
And then Markus got hurt and it all went to poop. Could Wojo have adjusted better at that point? 100 percent yes. But so suggest he was wrong all along when his strategy was delivering MUs best results in a very long time is the ultimate in Monday Morning QBing.
What I'd be really interested in seeing is what was MU's +/- in that 1-6 stretch with Markus off the court. I don't have the time (and probably not the tools) to do that at the moment, but if someone else does ...
600 shot attempts for MH
614 combined shot attempts for the Hausers
The inflexible, high-risk approach failed when it mattered most, as Henry Sugar pointed out this morning.
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Or your could say they tried to strongarm wojo, and he appropriately resisted.
They probably also thought more people quit leave the team to support them when they decided to quit.
Maybe they didn't have as much support from teammates as they thought!
The entire team, sans Markus, had a hand (hah) in the letter. Not just Sam and Joey.
I wouldn't consider 12/13 players requesting a change a "strongarm", and was it an appropriate resistance? We won 1 game after February 23rd.
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600 shot attempts for MH
614 combined shot attempts for the Hausers
The inflexible, high-risk approach failed when it mattered most, as Henry Sugar pointed out this morning.
851 points for MH.
836 combined points for the Hausers.
It failed when Markus got hurt.
When Marquette was 23-4 and ranked in the top 10 nobody was complaining.
But seriously, do you believe the either of the Hausers deserved as many shot attempts as Howard?
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600 shot attempts for MH
614 combined shot attempts for the Hausers
The inflexible, high-risk approach failed when it mattered most, as Henry Sugar pointed out this morning.
+1
That is a problem.
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851 points for MH.
836 combined points for the Hausers.
It failed when Markus got hurt.
When Marquette was 23-4 and ranked in the top 10 nobody was complaining.
But seriously, do you believe the either of the Hausers deserved as many shot attempts as Howard?
High usage schemes are high risk and have a lower success rate than just about any other approach. Some of that is here, more on our feed: https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376 (https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376)
And yes, I believe the Hausers deserved more shot attempts. So does Sam's elite ORtg, in particular.
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About allowing Markus to stay in AZ...I will remind folks that he has openly discussed his mental health issues.
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And yes, I believe the Hausers deserved more shot attempts. So does Sam's elite ORtg, in particular.
That wasn't my question.
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High usage schemes are high risk and have a lower success rate than just about any other approach. Some of that is here, more on our feed: https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376 (https://twitter.com/CrackedSidewlks/status/1111487502043365376)
And yes, I believe the Hausers deserved more shot attempts. So does Sam's elite ORtg, in particular.
Further, I don't think this is a new take by any means. While Sam's percentage of shots taken has crept up over his 3 years on campus, he's been our most offensively efficient player (aside from the anomaly of Matt Heldt) each of his three seasons. Granted, his efficiency may have dropped with a higher usage, and I fully believe some of that is Sam passing on good shots in hopes of getting someone else a great shot, but he definitely should've been shooting more & the job of the coach is to script the offense to get those looks.
I'm not as sold that Joey needed more looks. He did hit a wall later in the season & wasn't doing a ton in my estimation to earn more looks. Though on the balance of the season, he was our best three point shooter. Obviously when it came to Howard, he was fed the ball in hopes of shooting himself out of slumps, and that was to our detriment late in the season. Maybe Joey should've been given the same opportunity? No way to know what he would've done with them, but it is accurate to say he didn't get that opportunity.
EDIT: And more simply, Markus did not deserve as many shot attempts as the Hausers had combined. Of the three, he had the lowest eFG%. If you are going to run your offense through a primary option at the same effective rate as your secondary and tertiary options combined, you don't want the primary option to be the one with the lowest eFG%.
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That wasn't my question.
"But seriously, do you believe the either of the Hausers deserved as many shot attempts as Howard?"
Not as many per se ... but certainly many more than they were afforded. Particularly with Sam. High usage schemes are too risky and in this case wasted the talent of two all-league players.
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Further, I don't think this is a new take by any means. While Sam's percentage of shots taken has crept up over his 3 years on campus, he's been our most offensively efficient player (aside from the anomaly of Matt Heldt) each of his three seasons. Granted, his efficiency may have dropped with a higher usage, and I fully believe some of that is Sam passing on good shots in hopes of getting someone else a great shot, but he definitely should've been shooting more & the job of the coach is to script the offense to get those looks.
I'm not as sold that Joey needed more looks. He did hit a wall later in the season & wasn't doing a ton in my estimation to earn more looks. Though on the balance of the season, he was our best three point shooter. Obviously when it came to Howard, he was fed the ball in hopes of shooting himself out of slumps, and that was to our detriment late in the season. Maybe Joey should've been given the same opportunity? No way to know what he would've done with them, but it is accurate to say he didn't get that opportunity.
EDIT: And more simply, Markus did not deserve as many shot attempts as the Hausers had combined. Of the three, he had the lowest eFG%. If you are going to run your offense through a primary option at the same effective rate as your secondary and tertiary options combined, you don't want the primary option to be the one with the lowest eFG%.
Yup Yup Yup
MH's ORtg has declined each year he's been at MU. Guess what? His usage increased every season. Math!
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The Matt Heldt, Xavier, crying Wojo story happened organically. It got the attention it deserved. If other interesting stories would've happened organically, I am sure they would've been covered. But the media has little interest in being the PR department for Marquette.
You got that right. What do you think this is, Madison???
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wait, so the hausers went to wojo early in the losing streak and asked him to sit markus if he goes into hero ball mode or to reinvent their offense 80% of the way into the season? and when that didn't happen they decided to write a letter and get everyone on the team other than markus to sign it?
seems like we figured out why the locker room got split. adios to them if this is true.
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To play Devil’s advocate, I think some of the low usage for Sam is on him. He was pretty conservative in the shots he took. I thought he should be more selfish on shots. However, the flow of the offense went out the window when Markus went 1 on 5.
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I'm not trying to minimize the fallout of what's happened. It's true that a lot of players have wanted to transfer from MU at some point.
That being said, that's the case every year. 3-4 players every year wanted to transfer from MU under Crean. 3-4 players every year wanted to transfer under Buzz. 3-4 players ever year wanted to transfer every year under Wojo. That includes some very prominent players under each coach. It happens in every program.
Assistant coaches have to talk kids out of transfers all the time.
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I can think of two situations this year, second game vs Nova and second game vs SH, where a cold Markus came in and turned the ball over and missed shots. Both times disrupting our offensive flow. And this doesn’t include Markus ignoring a wide open, arm waving Sam vs SH in the BET while an ultracold Markus once again settles for the heroic crap and misses.
What could Wojo have done? Idk, relied on the guys on the court who had established an offensive flow? If I’m on that team I’m disgusted by how my coach handled those situations both of which cost us a BE title.
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This was posted before, but is one of the more important data points:
https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Reply/ghostBehind-Reply-131264929/
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
I mean .. when a team is writing a letter to the coach -- signed by more than just the Hausers -- that is just huge trouble. Any wonders why Marquette's season crashed and burned so drastically can be put to rest.
Forget the Mueller Report .. I want to see the Hauser Letter.
We're going to need to use MUScoop's little known subpoena power and get this out in the public.
Here is whole quote:
The record needs to be set straight as there is a fair amount of slander going around with the current situation. Please, please, please no one take out their frustrations on Markus or the Hauser’s.
Markus has a way that he likes to play and he believes that style will get him to the next level. It’s not directly on him to change to make his teammates happy.
The Hauser’s have a right to be frustrated with the lack of looks in the offense and shouldn’t be looked down upon because they’re leaving for greener pastures.
It’s human nature to selfishly take care of yourself/family first. However it’s on the coach and coaching staff to manage the egos and quell frustrations, especially with a roster as talented and potent as we would have been next year.
This situation rests squarely on the shoulders of the head coach for repeated negligence on managing the personalities on his team and refusing to cope with very vocal frustrations throughout the past year.
Some animosity began when Markus was allowed to go back home over the summer to work out with his family while everyone else was required to stay on campus. A lot of players were frustrated with this and rightfully so. Sure, Markus’ dad is a trainer, but if you’re building a team, why allow a key member of your team to leave everyone else during a crucial team building period to live at home, away from the rules/restrictions everyone else must abide by.
Frustrations grew significantly when Markus was dominating the ball down the losing stretch and Wojo refused to rest him or adjust to allow a more team oriented approach. Because many on the team felt it was the only option to get through to Wojo, a letter was written to him, initiated by the Hauser’s and cosigned by other members on the team, but it still fell on deaf ears.
There was a one sided conversation following the season and it ended with the Hauser’s saying thanks and we’re leaving.
This situation rests squarely on the shoulders of Wojo not being able to manage his team over the past year.
If I were Wojo and got this letter I would have suspended the Hauser boys and benched the other co-signers for future games. I doubt that this is true.
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I don't think this is entirely about Markus. I certainly don't think this started during the losing streak. It's the system.
- In 2014-15, there were numerous complaints about Carlino's usage. When he was on, it led to some spectacular performances. But while he could shoot us into games, he could also shoot us out of games.
- In 2015-16, there were numerous complaints about Ellenson's usage. Same story.
- In 2017-18, there were numerous complaints about Rowsey's usage. The whole "Good Rowsey/Bad Rowsey" narrative.
- In 2018-19, it's Markus.
The high usage player is not a bug, it's a feature. It's also why I loved the 2016-17 team. No single dominant player. On any given night, any of 5-6 different guys could carry the load. It's easy to say this is all because of a bad stretch of games where Howard dominated the ball, but it's a trend that stretches back years, as long as Wojo's been here. If you're going to recruit a diverse set of players that all believe they have the ability to be offensively prolific, they are going to want their time to shine. When the ball sticks in the same guy's hands night in and night out, it's going to lead to rifts in the locker room, and if you continue to ride that hand when the results go south, it's going to deepen those rifts.
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I can think of two situations this year, second game vs Nova and second game vs SH, where a cold Markus came in and turned the ball over and missed shots. Both times disrupting our offensive flow. And this doesn’t include Markus ignoring a wide open, arm waving Sam vs SH in the BET while an ultracold Markus once again settles for the heroic crap and misses.
What could Wojo have done? Idk, relied on the guys on the court who had established an offensive flow? If I’m on that team I’m disgusted by how my coach handled those situations both of which cost us a BE title.
If I were your coach you either listen or go elsewhere. Since when does the "team" run the the team.
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I’ll go back to what I’ve been saying about Wojo his entire tenure; I have yet to see anything that validates his ability to coach. Creating an offense around one high usage, offensive talent isn’t coaching.
And now there’s evidence that he doesn’t know how to manage his team. At this point he’s basically done nothing to keep his job. I can honestly make a case for naming Stan, the one guy who’s kept most of the team in tact the head coach on an interim basis and seeing how he does.
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If I were your coach you either listen or go elsewhere. Since when does the "team" run the the team.
Listening? How about adjusting based on performance. You know, what good coaches do. Pretty radical I know.
Also, based on your philosophy it may have been Howard you’d of had go elsewhere.
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About allowing Markus to stay in AZ...I will remind folks that he has openly discussed his mental health issues.
If you’re saying he needed to go home for mental health issues, I’m not sure I’m buying it. There is plenty of professional help in Milwaukee.
If you’re saying because of his mental health he’s unable to follow instructions and play basketball as the team game it’s supposed to be to the detriment of the 11 or 12 other players who work all year to play as a team, then you might get me to buy in. This could also explain Wojo being in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation.
Hypothetically speaking, many individuals speak openly of mental health issues as a proactive means of getting what they want. If they don’t get what they want, those around them are adversely affected. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
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wait, so the hausers went to wojo early in the losing streak and asked him to sit markus if he goes into hero ball mode or to reinvent their offense 80% of the way into the season? and when that didn't happen they decided to write a letter and get everyone on the team other than markus to sign it?
seems like we figured out why the locker room got split. adios to them if this is true.
No the whole team got together, Sans Markus, and wrote a letter to wojo. the letter pretty much said - Hey Markus is struggling (due to injury, fatigue, shooting slump, whatever) let us help shoulder some of the load. Not sure what Wojos response was, but the he continued to feed Markus a the ball.
Also, at its been said in other thread, we're just lucky Stan is on staff. Without him Marquette may not have enough players to put a full squad on the floor.
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I’ll go back to what I’ve been saying about Wojo his entire tenure; I have yet to see anything that validates his ability to coach. Creating an offense around one high usage, offensive talent isn’t coaching.
And now there’s evidence that he doesn’t know how to manage his team. At this point he’s basically done nothing to keep his job. I can honestly make a case for naming Stan, the one guy who’s kept most of the team in tact the head coach on an interim basis and seeing how he does.
If they could keep everybody else including those likely committed with the change to stan as an interim its the right move. It almost should be done either way though. Wojo will not take this program to the next level, even the apologists are starting to finally realize that. Its time to cut ties as much as it hurts, program will be dead in the water for the next 5 years or more anyways and may never be able to get out of mediocrity again.
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No one has any idea what "the Hauser Letter" said, other than to guess at what would seem obvious.
As for "sitting the letter writers" .. I suppose it all depends on content and style of the writing.
My guess is the signees had a pretty good point, as what is known is the team was in/shortly began and finished with an utter implosion.
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Listening? How about adjusting based on performance. You know, what good coaches do. Pretty radical I know.
Also, based on your philosophy it may have been Howard you’d of had go elsewhere.
Did Wojo adjust when Sam or Joey were playing poorly? Wojo deferred to Joey knowing he could not defend while Brendon and/or Jamal were sitting after one mistake. I can't speak for Markus but I don't think he was telling the coach how to coach. Things were really great until Joey was not measuring up and from the face of it the Hausers decided to take their ball and go home because baby brother was whining that Markus does not want to share the ball.
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If you’re saying he needed to go home for mental health issues, I’m not sure I’m buying it. There is plenty of professional help in Milwaukee.
If you’re saying because of his mental health he’s unable to follow instructions and play basketball as the team game it’s supposed to be to the detriment of the 11 or 12 other players who work all year to play as a team, then you might get me to buy in. This could also explain Wojo being in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation.
Hypothetically speaking, many individuals speak openly of mental health issues as a proactive means of getting what they want. If they don’t get what they want, those around them are adversely affected. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
Wow. So much wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin.
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Did Wojo adjust when Sam or Joey were playing poorly? Wojo deferred to Joey knowing he could not defend while Brendon and/or Jamal were sitting after one mistake. I can't speak for Markus but I don't think he was telling the coach how to coach. Things were really great until Joey was not measuring up and from the face of it the Hausers decided to take their ball and go home because baby brother was whining that Markus does not want to share the ball.
Umm Joey lost minutes to Bailey as the season went on and not just minutes but critical late game minutes so the answer is yes he did. It’s evident by the second part of this post you have a lack of appreciation and understanding for what transpired.
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If you’re saying he needed to go home for mental health issues, I’m not sure I’m buying it. There is plenty of professional help in Milwaukee.
If you’re saying because of his mental health he’s unable to follow instructions and play basketball as the team game it’s supposed to be to the detriment of the 11 or 12 other players who work all year to play as a team, then you might get me to buy in. This could also explain Wojo being in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation.
Hypothetically speaking, many individuals speak openly of mental health issues as a proactive means of getting what they want. If they don’t get what they want, those around them are adversely affected. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
Clearly by your reply you have an outstanding understanding of mental health issues and how individuals cope and talk about them.
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Clearly by your reply you have an outstanding understanding of mental health issues and how individuals cope and talk about them.
I know enough about them to realize a guy with anxiety problems ain’t jacking up contested off balance three pointers after missing 14 of his previous 15 shots.
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To play Devil’s advocate, I think some of the low usage for Sam is on him. He was pretty conservative in the shots he took. I thought he should be more selfish on shots. However, the flow of the offense went out the window when Markus went 1 on 5.
That is what I loved about Sam. Pass up an OK shot to try to get a better one unless time is running out on the clock. Before the three point shot ball movement to get layups used to be the ultimate goal of your offense. The three ball has changed what the best shot is, but lots of ball movement to get the best shot is still the most fun way to play and the most enjoyable for me personally to watch and very effective against most college teams. I agree that is not the best strategy when you are as good as Sam and everyone else is not of the same mindset, though.
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Da 'hole fookin' mess kneeds ta bee purged. Starts and ends wit da coach. Give Wojo da heave ho, aina?
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That is what I loved about Sam. Pass up an OK shot to try to get a better one unless time is running out on the clock. Before the three point shot ball movement to get layups used to be the ultimate goal of your offense. The three ball has changed what the best shot is, but lots of ball movement to get the best shot is still the most fun way to play and the most enjoyable for me personally to watch and very effective against most college teams. I agree that is not the best strategy when you are as good as Sam and everyone else is not of the same mindset, though.
I occasionally would yell at Sam (through the TV) to not pass up good shots, to go post up smaller players and dominate them, and to stop deferring. There were times he'd have a 6-5 guy on him and he'd be 8 feet from the basket and he'd pass the ball back out. Maybe that's "unselfish," but it's also not the best strategy.
And from what I recall in Scoop posts throughout the season, I'm not the only one who noticed such things and did such yelling.
Can we at least agree that at least a little of the "Hausers don't get enough shots" narrative is on Sam for not taking high-percentage shots when he had them? And can we also agree that Sam missed several wide-open 3s down the stretch, any couple/few of which might have led to a couple/few more wins, a BEast title, a better seed, etc.? And can we also agree that Joey was not the same player the second half of the season that he was the first half?
Why does almost everything have to be all-or-nothing, black-or-white, him-or-him with these issues? (I'm not talking about you, CTW, just Scoop in general.)
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I occasionally would yell at Sam (through the TV) to not pass up good shots, to go post up smaller players and dominate them, and to stop deferring. There were times he'd have a 6-5 guy on him and he'd be 8 feet from the basket and he'd pass the ball back out. Maybe that's "unselfish," but it's also not the best strategy.
And from what I recall in Scoop posts throughout the season, I'm not the only one who noticed such things and did such yelling.
Can we at least agree that at least a little of the "Hausers don't get enough shots" narrative is on Sam for not taking high-percentage shots when he had them? And can we also agree that Sam missed several wide-open 3s down the stretch, any couple/few of which might have led to a couple/few more wins, a BEast title, a better seed, etc.? And can we also agree that Joey was not the same player the second half of the season that he was the first half?
Why does almost everything have to be all-or-nothing, black-or-white, him-or-him with these issues? (I'm not talking about you, CTW, just Scoop in general.)
I am not on the Hausers' "side", they're the ones who are doing the leaving after all. I was just pointing out that I liked Sam's approach about when to shoot and when to pass. Once or so a game I might think he passed up a shot that he should have taken, but I prefer that to the opposite. I also agree that he missed many good looks in big spots down the stretch. In the end, I am a process guy. Move the ball, look for high percentage shots for the first 20-22 seconds of the shot clock. That is the process that will lead to the best results. I think we aren't far apart at all.
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Da 'hole fookin' mess kneeds ta bee purged. Starts and ends wit da coach. Give Wojo da heave ho, aina?
It does start and end with the boss, totally agree with that. But maybe the purge is after next season. The whole program will be chaotic if Wojo is dumped now.
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I think we aren't far apart at all.
We're not. Thanks for the conversation.
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I am not on the Hausers' "side", they're the ones who are doing the leaving after all. I was just pointing out that I liked Sam's approach about when to shoot and when to pass. Once or so a game I might think he passed up a shot that he should have taken, but I prefer that to the opposite. I also agree that he missed many good looks in big spots down the stretch. In the end, I am a process guy. Move the ball, look for high percentage shots for the first 20-22 seconds of the shot clock. That is the process that will lead to the best results. I think we aren't far apart at all.
I think it's the contrast between him and Howard. Sam would pass up a good shot to get someone else a great one, but Markus would rather take a questionable shot when a pass would create a good or great one for someone else. I feel like on the court, Sam was very good at doing the little things to help the rest of the team, while Howard was hunting for his own shot. When Howard's shot is falling, it's magical, but when it's not, that acts to the detriment of everyone.
Another thing I've been thinking of is just how good Sam could be in Tony Bennett's system. The pack line doesn't require the same foot-speed as a typical man-to-man. It's more about sticking to your assignments, which Sam is already great at. And he's willing to keep moving the ball until the right look opens up. Joe McCann mentioned on Scrambled Eggs that he thought Sam could be a potential ACC POY at Virginia, and I'm inclined to agree. It isn't just that Virginia's system is perfect for Sam, it's that Sam is perfect for Virginia's system. If anywhere could turn him into a conference POY, All-American, & best highlight the attributes he has that could get him drafted, Virginia is it.
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If you’re saying he needed to go home for mental health issues, I’m not sure I’m buying it. There is plenty of professional help in Milwaukee.
If you’re saying because of his mental health he’s unable to follow instructions and play basketball as the team game it’s supposed to be to the detriment of the 11 or 12 other players who work all year to play as a team, then you might get me to buy in. This could also explain Wojo being in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation.
Hypothetically speaking, many individuals speak openly of mental health issues as a proactive means of getting what they want. If they don’t get what they want, those around them are adversely affected. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
The letter in question supposedly stated that they were upset that Markus was allowed to go home to Arizona in the summer. I have seen other articles on his depression that Wojo allowed that as he has had to spend so many months far away.
If I lived in Phoenix and my kid in college was depressed, I sure would like to have him close to me to get him settled. If I was his coach, I would want him with his parents too.
If this was the reason, and the other players were upset or jealous, they should go cry to their mommy and daddy. And besides, it isn't Wojo's right to divulge this unless Markus wanted it to be at the time.
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The letter in question supposedly stated that they were upset that Markus was allowed to go home to Arizona in the summer. I have seen other articles on his depression that Wojo allowed that as he has had to spend so many months far away.
If I lived in Phoenix and my kid in college was depressed, I sure would like to have him close to me to get him settled. If I was his coach, I would want him with his parents too.
If this was the reason, and the other players were upset or jealous, they should go cry to their mommy and daddy. And besides, it isn't Wojo's right to divulge this unless Markus wanted it to be at the time.
I understand you. Homesickness is a terrible thing, especially with young adults. But herein lies a little problem. We have some people saying he goes home to train with his father and his family team. Now we have some saying he’s going home because of depression. Which is it?
What I am saying, perhaps indelicately, is that there are those people who use issues like depression to get what they want. This is just a fact. I don’t know that he did this, I don’t know that he’s coached differently because of it and I don’t know what the other kids had to go through...if anything to help alleviate his problems.
I do think it’s a little ironic that you suggest the rest of the team go cry to their “mommy and dads” when what you’re saying is that’s exactly what Howard was claiming he needed to do.
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I think it's the contrast between him and Howard. Sam would pass up a good shot to get someone else a great one, but Markus would rather take a questionable shot when a pass would create a good or great one for someone else. I feel like on the court, Sam was very good at doing the little things to help the rest of the team, while Howard was hunting for his own shot. When Howard's shot is falling, it's magical, but when it's not, that acts to the detriment of everyone.
Another thing I've been thinking of is just how good Sam could be in Tony Bennett's system. The pack line doesn't require the same foot-speed as a typical man-to-man. It's more about sticking to your assignments, which Sam is already great at. And he's willing to keep moving the ball until the right look opens up. Joe McCann mentioned on Scrambled Eggs that he thought Sam could be a potential ACC POY at Virginia, and I'm inclined to agree. It isn't just that Virginia's system is perfect for Sam, it's that Sam is perfect for Virginia's system. If anywhere could turn him into a conference POY, All-American, & best highlight the attributes he has that could get him drafted, Virginia is it.
Agree with just about all of this, although ...
I will say that by passing up excellent shots Sam was helping neither his team nor himself.
"I have a wide-open 3 that I make about 70% of the time, and the team sure can use a basket, but I'll pass to Markus ... and then be p-o'ed when Markus shoots, thereby depriving me of a shot."
Seems a little counterproductive.
Oh, and a thing I left out of my previous post is that one of the few things Sam doesn't do well is create his own shot. He usually needs somebody to get the ball to him. Markus could get an open shot that he felt he could make pretty much any time -- that worked well sometimes but was a uh-oh many other times.
But yes, I do agree that Sam has a high hoops IQ, does so many outstanding things on the floor and would be a fine player under Bennett's system, both offensively and defensively.
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Agree with just about all of this, although ...
I will say that by passing up excellent shots Sam was helping neither his team nor himself.
"I have a wide-open 3 that I make about 70% of the time, and the team sure can use a basket, but I'll pass to Markus ... and then be p-o'ed when Markus shoots, thereby depriving me of a shot."
Seems a little counterproductive.
Oh, and a thing I left out of my previous post is that one of the few things Sam doesn't do well is create his own shot. He usually needs somebody to get the ball to him. Markus could get an open shot that he felt he could make pretty much any time -- that worked well sometimes but was a uh-oh many other times.
But yes, I do agree that Sam has a high hoops IQ, does so many outstanding things on the floor and would be a fine player under Bennett's system, both offensively and defensively.
I don’t disagree with this. I can think of many times I was screaming for Sam to be more assertive. There’s a fine line between being unselfish and passive.
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Sam played three years at MU.Never said there was a problem the first two years and Rowsey was on team too.If he was unhappy no way Joey shows up here.Year three comes and MU is winning big and not a word.All of a sudden MU loses some games in a row and Sam has a problem.You have one year left and you bail on a preseason top 10 team.I say chicken crap.See ya and don't let the door hit you on way out.I call that selfish
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Umm Joey lost minutes to Bailey as the season went on and not just minutes but critical late game minutes so the answer is yes he did. It’s evident by the second part of this post you have a lack of appreciation and understanding for what transpired.
I appreciate exactly what transpired. I am not defending Wojo. All I am stating is that the coach is in charge, not some frustrated players who think they know better, did not get their way, and then decided to bail.
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I understand you. Homesickness is a terrible thing, especially with young adults. But herein lies a little problem. We have some people saying he goes home to train with his father and his family team. Now we have some saying he’s going home because of depression. Which is it?
What I am saying, perhaps indelicately, is that there are those people who use issues like depression to get what they want. This is just a fact. I don’t know that he did this, I don’t know that he’s coached differently because of it and I don’t know what the other kids had to go through...if anything to help alleviate his problems.
I do think it’s a little ironic that you suggest the rest of the team go cry to their “mommy and dads” when what you’re saying is that’s exactly what Howard was claiming he needed to do.
So if you are depressed you can't do other things like work out and work on your game? Interesting diagnosis.
As to my crying to mommy and daddy comment, I said IF they were told about Markus and they were still jealous of what they termed "special treatment" in February, yeah go cry to mommy and daddy. Which even more ironically, they did.
Listen, the Hausers are great kids and family. Sam was asked to play out of position for three years. Interestingly, the third year was because of his brother. Go find your happy place.
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So if you are depressed you can't do other things like work out and work on your game? Interesting diagnosis.
As to my crying to mommy and daddy comment, I said IF they were told about Markus and they were still jealous of what they termed "special treatment" in February, yeah go cry to mommy and daddy. Which even more ironically, they did.
Listen, the Hausers are great kids and family. Sam was asked to play out of position for three years. Interestingly, the third year was because of his brother. Go find your happy place.
Apparently, some of the players raised a lot of the same questions I have, which is why we are dealing with a borderline scandal.
But I’m sure poor Markus doesn’t know what’s going on...he just gives and gives and gives...until it’s time for tip-off.
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Apparently, some of the players raised a lot of the same questions I have, which is why we are dealing with a borderline scandal.
But I’m sure poor Markus doesn’t know what’s going on...he just gives and gives and gives...until it’s time for tip-off.
Borderline scandal? Give it a rest.
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Apparently, some of the players raised a lot of the same questions I have, which is why we are dealing with a borderline scandal.
But I’m sure poor Markus doesn’t know what’s going on...he just gives and gives and gives...until it’s time for tip-off.
You should've left it at "I don't like how Markus plays" and moved on.
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If you’re saying he needed to go home for mental health issues, I’m not sure I’m buying it. There is plenty of professional help in Milwaukee.
If you’re saying because of his mental health he’s unable to follow instructions and play basketball as the team game it’s supposed to be to the detriment of the 11 or 12 other players who work all year to play as a team, then you might get me to buy in. This could also explain Wojo being in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t situation.
Hypothetically speaking, many individuals speak openly of mental health issues as a proactive means of getting what they want. If they don’t get what they want, those around them are adversely affected. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
you are wrong on so many levels with your hot take
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I know enough about them to realize a guy with anxiety problems ain’t jacking up contested off balance three pointers after missing 14 of his previous 15 shots.
This is laughably inaccurate. Anxiety and depression can manifest in thousands of different ways. I have sleep anxiety to the point that I was prescribed anxiety medication after multiple studies despite never wanting to resort to medication. I literally could not stop myself from looking at the clock and panicking every 5 minutes.
I have no issues performing at my job. I didn't get anxious before tests. I don't have any anxiety if I'm playing basketball and I miss 10 consecutive shots.
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Borderline scandal? Give it a rest.
How about borderline mutiny?
What do you all think is going on?
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I think it's the contrast between him and Howard. Sam would pass up a good shot to get someone else a great one,
That's a nice narrative, but not necessarily true. Many times, he would pass up a good shot, and there would not be a good shot afterwards. If your narrative were true, he would have alot more assists.
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That's a nice narrative, but not necessarily true. Many times, he would pass up a good shot, and there would not be a good shot afterwards. If your narrative were true, he would have alot more assists.
I'm not saying it always resulted in great shots, but the intent that a good shot wasn't good enough. I feel like Sam would pass on good looks hoping the team would get a better look, maybe directly off his pass, or 2-3 passes later. My biggest issue is that it often wasn't a successful approach, and frankly a good shot for Sam is more likely to succeed than great shots for many other players.
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That's a nice narrative, but not necessarily true. Many times, he would pass up a good shot, and there would not be a good shot afterwards. If your narrative were true, he would have alot more assists.
This - I feel like people are not remembering Sam's game all that well. He was a spot up shooter and rarely created anything for anybody else. He had an assist rate of 14.5 last year, that was even lower than Joey's 15.2, and a lot lower than the 27.2 Markus had. I loved Sam as a player and thought he might have been our most important player going into last year, but the things Markus did last year changed my mind on that. He was what made our offense work because he was the only one that could create either for himself or for others. If we got to make the choice between Markus or the Hauser brothers give me the BEPOY, AA, and one of the best scorers MU has ever seen any day of the week.
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Here are my alternatives:
- When Markus wasn't 100%, don't play him so many minutes. He didn't play against Georgetown and we managed. He clearly wasn't right at the end of the season & the team struggled because of that.
- When you say "the strength of our team is our team", let that play out on the court as well. Script plays for other guys. If players don't get the ball to those other guys, let them sit on the bench for a bit so you can explain and reinforce that the strength of the team is indeed the team.
- Push other players in the media. Yes, Markus has a compelling story, but it's not the only compelling story on the team. The coach can influence how the team is covered, do that to promote your other leaders.
- Going further back, this comes down to recruiting. We needed someone to take Markus off the ball. It's better for Markus & the rest of the team. Maybe McEwen will be that guy, but clearly Chartouny wasn't a good fit & that comes down to staff evaluations.
- Frankly...there are I'm sure a dozen other things that could've been done. Ultimately, it is the job of the head coach to assemble a roster & keep it together. I believe 100% that Wojo was aware there were issues. That being the case, it was his job to make it work. That's what he's paid for. So the question of what was Wojo's alternative is answered simply by "fix it" because that's why he was hired to sit in that seat in the first place.
Chicos actually made a thread suggesting this. *ducks*
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How about borderline mutiny?
What do you all think is going on?
So your take is there's a borderline mutiny going on because Howard is a cancer.
Don't give up your day job.
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So your take is there's a borderline mutiny going on because Howard is a cancer.
Don't give up your day job.
That’s my take because that’s what is happening.
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Chicos actually made a thread suggesting this. *ducks*
I remember tweeting this late in the game at Seton Hall:
I love Howard. Love his game. But right now, up 13, I'm not sure I want him back in the game. Unless there's a real need.
https://twitter.com/brewcity77/status/1103462851438628864?s=21
He was killing us late in games. It was right there to see.
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This - I feel like people are not remembering Sam's game all that well. He was a spot up shooter and rarely created anything for anybody else. He had an assist rate of 14.5 last year, that was even lower than Joey's 15.2, and a lot lower than the 27.2 Markus had. I loved Sam as a player and thought he might have been our most important player going into last year, but the things Markus did last year changed my mind on that. He was what made our offense work because he was the only one that could create either for himself or for others. If we got to make the choice between Markus or the Hauser brothers give me the BEPOY, AA, and one of the best scorers MU has ever seen any day of the week.
I remember his game well. He would pass up a shot and kick it out if he thought we could get a better one. Not necessarily leading to an assist and as MU82 pointed out, not 100%always the correct decision. Assist rate is out of context the way you are using it anyway. Markus had the ball 5x as much as Sam so of course he is going to get a much higher percentage of assists while he is on the floor.
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This - I feel like people are not remembering Sam's game all that well. He was a spot up shooter and rarely created anything for anybody else. He had an assist rate of 14.5 last year, that was even lower than Joey's 15.2, and a lot lower than the 27.2 Markus had. I loved Sam as a player and thought he might have been our most important player going into last year, but the things Markus did last year changed my mind on that. He was what made our offense work because he was the only one that could create either for himself or for others. If we got to make the choice between Markus or the Hauser brothers give me the BEPOY, AA, and one of the best scorers MU has ever seen any day of the week.
If only basketball used the hockey assist stat. Cant just poke into any stat withoutboooking at everything
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I remember his game well. He would pass up a shot and kick it out if he thought we could get a better one. Not necessarily leading to an assist and as MU82 pointed out, not 100%always the correct decision. Assist rate is out of context the way you are using it anyway. Markus had the ball 5x as much as Sam so of course he is going to get a much higher percentage of assists while he is on the floor.
Correct, it should be expected he had a higher assist rate. There is also a reason he had the ball in his hands 5x more than Sam, because he could create for others. Again, nothing against Sam, but he is what he is, a spot up shooter who did not really do all that much to set his teammates up for better shots. Markus is what he is, a high volume scorer who still needs to improve in knowing when to shoot and when not to. Both are learning that last part, Sam by knowing when to actually shoot and Markus when not to.
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eFG% during parts of a possession (# of attempts):
Transition: Howard 57.0% (178), Sam 56.6% (83), and Joey 52.8% (39).
Non-transition: Howard 49.9% (422), Sam 58.0% (293), and Joey 54.5% (198).
Late: Howard 35.8% (66), Sam 61.3% (71), and Joey 57.4% (34).
This is the over usage and hero ball problem. Markus was a killer in transition, horrid at the end. Sam consistent rock across all but money late. Joey consistent.
That's what Wojo needs to replace and fix.
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eFG% during parts of a possession (# of attempts):
Transition: Howard 57.0% (178), Sam 56.6% (83), and Joey 52.8% (39).
Non-transition: Howard 49.9% (422), Sam 58.0% (293), and Joey 54.5% (198).
Late: Howard 35.8% (66), Sam 61.3% (71), and Joey 57.4% (34).
This is the over usage and hero ball problem. Markus was a killer in transition, horrid at the end. Sam consistent rock across all but money late. Joey consistent.
That's what Wojo needs to replace and fix.
The late numbers can be misleading though. Late in shot clock we'd go to Markus to get a difficult shot up. We wouldn't go to Sam or Joey because they were not nearly as capable of creating a shot.
Markus' numbers go way down because he was the only one who could create a shot. Late shot clock most of Sam's (and even moreso Joey's) were catch and shoot or post ups.
I'm not saying the numbers have no validity. They do. But I can remember a minimum of 50 possessions with 5 seconds left on the clock where someone threw the ball to Markus near halfcourt and he had to go get a shot.
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When Sam developed and proved himself to be a potential star, an All-Conference performer, Wojo could have coached the team to acknowledge this. An inability, or disinterest, in making Sam anything more than an a wing outlet. Markus is a phenomenal scorer and a great player, but he had a near historic usage rate. And given the offense and direction of the team during the slide at the end of the year, there is nothing to insinuate that would have changed next year.
No, you don't banish Markus. But its a coaches job to manage his star in a way that allows the team to shine the best collectively, which doesn't mean dedicating yourself to the Markus Show at the expense of others. Sam and Joey likely saw that Wojo didn't have a plan or desire for that, next year would be more 40%+ usage rate basketball with Howard, for better or for worse, and made a choice.
Had Sam stayed he probably would of finished top 5 in scoring at MU. That to me indicates Sam was getting his shots.
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Had Sam stayed he probably would of finished top 5 in scoring at MU. That to me indicates Sam was getting his shots.
And he will now be getting shots somewhere else. Three years at MU and a very good player has left the building. Anybody know why?
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How about borderline mutiny?
What do you all think is going on?
One player wanted to leave and took his brother with him.
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One player wanted to leave and took his brother with him.
Two players DID leave after Markus announced he was coming back. Are you sure it was just them who wanted to leave?
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Two players DID leave after Markus announced he was coming back. Are you sure it was just them who wanted to leave?
Are you really claiming Markus is faking his mental illness for special treatment on/off the court?
Jeez
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The late numbers can be misleading though. Late in shot clock we'd go to Markus to get a difficult shot up. We wouldn't go to Sam or Joey because they were not nearly as capable of creating a shot.
Markus' numbers go way down because he was the only one who could create a shot. Late shot clock most of Sam's (and even moreso Joey's) were catch and shoot or post ups.
I'm not saying the numbers have no validity. They do. But I can remember a minimum of 50 possessions with 5 seconds left on the clock where someone threw the ball to Markus near halfcourt and he had to go get a shot.
Sam had more shots than Markus late in possessions. Markus had 66 last second shots as I noted in parenthesis in my post and Sam had 71. This is the only time instance of the three where Sam had more shots as Markus dominated early and within the offense.
Yet, Sam hit a much higher percentage. So your eye test doesn't support your conclusions.
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And he will now be getting shots somewhere else. Three years at MU and a very good player has left the building. Anybody know why?
In a small town like Milwaukee, you would think someone with a little inside info could come up with a answer to this. Instead all we get is endless speculation.
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In a small town like Milwaukee, you would think someone with a little inside info could come up with a answer to this. Instead all we get is endless speculation.
I think the majority of it is on here. But this site has been a bit of a jumbled mess since Monday morning.
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I think the majority of it is on here. But this site has been a bit of a jumbled mess since Monday morning.
You might be right and I'm missing the forest for the trees. But this still makes no sense to me. Can you do me a favor and give me a short sum up of "the majority of it".
Sam delaying the NBA for a year and Joey giving up a year's eligibility because Markus won't pass them the ball? Because they decided after all this time they hate Wojo? To transfer to Wisconsin, a program in major decline, of all places? Just makes no sense.
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Are you really claiming Markus is faking his mental illness for special treatment on/off the court?
Jeez
I’m not sure I went as far as that.
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The majority is probably this:
- Rift seems to have started over usage rate of Howard, especially in late-game situations during the losing streak.
- Players went to Wojo with complaints but nothing changed.
- Players wrote a letter to Wojo reaffirming those complaints but nothing changed.
- The situation developed into a Markus or the Hausers choice for Wojo.
- Markus came back, which led to the Hausers transfer. Sam does sit one/play one, Joey gives up a year of eligibility to leave.
- Virginia, Michigan State (runners up for Sam & Joey respectively) become early favorites, Wisconsin also emerges as an option due to the connections to Trevor Anderson & the Davison family, along with heavy speculation by UW-M media types like Potrykus.
I'm sure there's plenty more on the site, but I think those are the basics of what's being discussed.
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Sam had more shots than Markus late in possessions. Markus had 66 last second shots as I noted in parenthesis in my post and Sam had 71. This is the only time instance of the three where Sam had more shots as Markus dominated early and within the offense.
Yet, Sam hit a much higher percentage. So your eye test doesn't support your conclusions.
+1. Good job Doc. People love the "eye test" because it allows them to affirm their biases. Thank you for some data.
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Sam had more shots than Markus late in possessions. Markus had 66 last second shots as I noted in parenthesis in my post and Sam had 71. This is the only time instance of the three where Sam had more shots as Markus dominated early and within the offense.
Yet, Sam hit a much higher percentage. So your eye test doesn't support your conclusions.
Interesting. Never would have guessed that. Do you have numbers on turnovers or fouls drawn late in clock?
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The majority is probably this:
- Rift seems to have started over usage rate of Howard, especially in late-game situations during the losing streak.
- Players went to Wojo with complaints but nothing changed.
- Players wrote a letter to Wojo reaffirming those complaints but nothing changed.
- The situation developed into a Markus or the Hausers choice for Wojo.
- Markus came back, which led to the Hausers transfer. Sam does sit one/play one, Joey gives up a year of eligibility to leave.
- Virginia, Michigan State (runners up for Sam & Joey respectively) become early favorites, Wisconsin also emerges as an option due to the connections to Trevor Anderson & the Davison family, along with heavy speculation by UW-M media types like Potrykus.
I'm sure there's plenty more on the site, but I think those are the basics of what's being discussed.
I have to ask where any of the assistant coaches were as this developed, because this entire debacle reeks of coaching malpractice. Someone on the staff has to:
1)be aware of the severity of the issue;
2)be a buffer/safe space for venting player discontent;
3)be able to talk to Wojo about some kind of accommodation;
4)sell the Hausers on some accommodation.
I sure there are other points to be added, but I am still stunned that this wasn't headed off in some way. No way this issue should have reached the point it did. The more that comes out the more ridiculous it gets. This whole letter thing is utter madness.
We have assistant coaches for a reason, and one of them is helping manage disputes over ego, usage, playing time and jealousies, coaching stubbornness and whatever you want to put in the mix. We don't have a numbers guy that can go through the end of game efficiency stats or whatever the issue of the day is and work something out? The whole team self destructs in three to four games? Its just ridiculous.
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Connie raises a good point.
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I do not believe the letter was a "bash Markus" letter.
The Hausers -- and the rest of the kids on the team -- are not dummies by any stretch, and frankly, they are the opposite, well spoken young men. They did not write a whiney-bitch letter aimed at one player.
I will bet a bag of Arby's "the letter" was very much aimed at Wojo's offensive "system" and what types of changes would make the team better and more consistent, and lessen variability.
Since "the letter" didn't appear to effect change, one would guess the coach dug his heels in -- surprising to no one.
(https://i.imgur.com/GQSxMw7.gif)
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Whether the letter was to bash Markus or to get Wojo to change his offensive system, I'm not sure asking a coach to change his entire offensive system with...4 games? left in the regular season is all that reasonable.
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Two players DID leave after Markus announced he was coming back. Are you sure it was just them who wanted to leave?
Reasonably certain, yes.
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I do not believe the letter was a "bash Markus" letter.
The Hausers -- and the rest of the kids on the team -- are not dummies by any stretch, and frankly, they are the opposite, well spoken young men. They did not write a whiney-bitch letter aimed at one player.
I will bet a bag of Arby's "the letter" was very much aimed at Wojo's offensive "system" and what types of changes would make the team better and more consistent, and lessen variability.
Since "the letter" didn't appear to effect change, one would guess the coach dug his heels in -- surprising to no one.
(https://i.imgur.com/GQSxMw7.gif)
And yet, the "letter" was allegedly written after the Villanova game after an incredible run by the team. A run where they went 20-2.
It took one loss for the frustration to spill out and the subsequent results after were what?
I am with Connie on this one...this seems very petty on all counts and it's incredible it came to this. A week ago I was reveling in a Top 5 team...now I am being served up a toxic stew of month old Beef 'n Cheddars. There are only losers in this.
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And yet, the "letter" was allegedly written after the Villanova game after an incredible run by the team. A run where they went 20-2.
It took one loss for the frustration to spill out and the subsequent results after were what?
I am with Connie on this one...this seems very petty on all counts and it's incredible it came to this. A week ago I was reveling in a Top 5 team...now I am being served up a toxic stew of month old Beef 'n Cheddars. There are only losers in this.
Based on posts, I thought some of the frustration was started after losing to Nova. The letter didn’t come until after meetings and later in the season.
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Based on posts, I thought some of the frustration was started after losing to Nova. The letter didn’t come until after meetings and later in the season.
When it was scripted is about as clear as mud. What is clear, it took one loss, the Nova loss, for the team to unravel.
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I have to ask where any of the assistant coaches were as this developed, because this entire debacle reeks of coaching malpractice. Someone on the staff has to:
1)be aware of the severity of the issue;
2)be a buffer/safe space for venting player discontent;
3)be able to talk to Wojo about some kind of accommodation;
4)sell the Hausers on some accommodation.
I sure there are other points to be added, but I am still stunned that this wasn't headed off in some way. No way this issue should have reached the point it did. The more that comes out the more ridiculous it gets. This whole letter thing is utter madness.
We have assistant coaches for a reason, and one of them is helping manage disputes over ego, usage, playing time and jealousies, coaching stubbornness and whatever you want to put in the mix. We don't have a numbers guy that can go through the end of game efficiency stats or whatever the issue of the day is and work something out? The whole team self destructs in three to four games? Its just ridiculous.
Exactly. This idea that Wojo couldn't really do anything only makes sense if you ignore what lead up to the point where an ultimatum was issued. This isn't some disgruntled freshman we're talking about here. This is a three year starter whose brother finished up high school early less than 18 months ago in order to join the team.
The coaching staff completely screwed this up, and Wojo is the head of the coaching staff.
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Let's hypothesize for a moment that Wojo was contemplating making adjustments to the offense. The one that had led to a 20-2 record. Let us also hypothesize that as he was contemplating this, the mutiny letter arrived. At that point, his hands are tied. He cannot give in as it would basically mean that he was not in charge of the team and the players are dictating terms.
In the end, the Hausers wanted more touches. Markus came back, they left.
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Let's hypothesize for a moment that Wojo was contemplating making adjustments to the offense. The one that had led to a 20-2 record. Let us also hypothesize that as he was contemplating this, the mutiny letter arrived. At that point, his hands are tied. He cannot give in as it would basically mean that he was not in charge of the team and the players are dictating terms.
In the end, the Hausers wanted more touches. Markus came back, they left.
I strongly disagree with this. No accommodation is possible? Nothing at all? The letter was "change our (to this point) very successful offensive system entirely or we're leaving because we lost one (or two, or three) games? And Wojo would say in response "F- you. I'm not gonna change a single thing even though I was thinking of it anyway, simply because you complained?" I welcome voices supporting Wojo, but even against this background this is unbelievable.
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I am with Connie on this one...this seems very petty on all counts and it's incredible it came to this.
I'm not sure I'd agree any of this classifies as "petty." I mean, if we're talking Pee Wee little league, yeah. This is supposed to be a high major basketball program, thousands of fans, millions of dollars involved, not to mention future careers.
If (reasonable) players on the team try to change the coaching system vocally, then feel a letter is their last option, I don't see that as petty. It's a massive nuclear red flag that something is very wrong, and the coach -- and MUAD people -- need to deal with the situation very seriously.
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Let's hypothesize for a moment that Wojo was contemplating making adjustments to the offense. The one that had led to a 20-2 record. Let us also hypothesize that as he was contemplating this, the mutiny letter arrived. At that point, his hands are tied. He cannot give in as it would basically mean that he was not in charge of the team and the players are dictating terms.
In the end, the Hausers wanted more touches. Markus came back, they left.
Calling it a mutiny letter is a little ridiculous. A good coach communicates well with the players. This is evidence this communication wasn't occurring.
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And yet, the "letter" was allegedly written after the Villanova game after an incredible run by the team. A run where they went 20-2.
It took one loss for the frustration to spill out and the subsequent results after were what?
I am with Connie on this one...this seems very petty on all counts and it's incredible it came to this. A week ago I was reveling in a Top 5 team...now I am being served up a toxic stew of month old Beef 'n Cheddars. There are only losers in this.
Letter was written just before the BE tournament. It was not a "change our whole offense" letter, it was a "please get through to a certain someone that he can't be freelancing like this anymore" letter. Not a mutiny, but a last ditch effort since previous efforts obviously didn't result in anything.
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I'm not sure I'd agree any of this classifies as "petty." I mean, if we're talking Pee Wee little league, yeah. This is supposed to be a high major basketball program, thousands of fans, millions of dollars involved, not to mention future careers.
If (reasonable) players on the team try to change the coaching system vocally, then feel a letter is their last option, I don't see that as petty. It's a massive nuclear red flag that something is very wrong, and the coach -- and MUAD people -- need to deal with the situation very seriously.
So when MU was 20-2 all is good. One loss (or two) and there is a tinder box?
Not dismissing concerns but petty (definition: all was good for a couple of months and then it wasn't) or small things went immediately to a flash point. That's a lot of tinder with one spark.
As I said, there are only losers across the board in that it had to come to this. Vanity loves company.
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So when MU was 20-2 all is good. One loss (or two) and there is a tinder box?
Not dismissing concerns but petty (definition: all was good for a couple of months and then it wasn't) or small things went immediately to a flash point. That's a lot of tinder with one spark.
As I said, there are only losers across the board in that it had to come to this. Vanity loves company.
The letter was written AFTER they lost 4 in a row
The letter was written AFTER numerous attempts to talk to the staff
The letter was written and signed MANY players
If ya'll going to disparage Sam, Joey and Dave...you might as well start disparaging Sacar, Theo, Ed etc.
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Let's hypothesize for a moment that Wojo was contemplating making adjustments to the offense. The one that had led to a 20-2 record. Let us also hypothesize that as he was contemplating this, the mutiny letter arrived. At that point, his hands are tied. He cannot give in as it would basically mean that he was not in charge of the team and the players are dictating terms.
In the end, the Hausers wanted more touches. Markus came back, they left.
I don't agree with your conclusions. In your hypothetical scenario Wojo could have told the players that he and his staff were already planning a change in strategy.
Hypotheticals aside, Wojo lost control of the team. They were spiraling downward and he did nothing to address the issues, be it injuries, poor decisions by players, bad locker room, etc.
I hope Wojo is a quick study and can rebound for next year. I believe next year could be the end since MU's administration is not offering him an extension.
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The letter was written AFTER they lost 4 in a row
The letter was written AFTER numerous attempts to talk to the staff
The letter was written and signed MANY players
If ya'll going to disparage Sam, Joey and Dave...you might as well start disparaging Sacar, Theo, Ed etc.
Whatever. Fights in the locker room at Nova, bitch meetings, all about me tweets, letters. No winners, all losers all the way around. I am not disparaging any one personally. The facts are, everyone is a loser that it has come to this over everyday team stuff. Sad.
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Whether the letter was to bash Markus or to get Wojo to change his offensive system, I'm not sure asking a coach to change his entire offensive system with...4 games? left in the regular season is all that reasonable.
I don't think they were asking the coach to change his entire system. The system was fine. The problem was that more and more Wojo was allowing (encouraging?) Markus to play hero ball outside of the system. You can't be saying "The strength of the team is the team" in press conferences and allowing one guy to totally take over on the court. Players see through that.
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Whatever. Fights in the locker room at Nova, bitch meetings, all about me tweets, letters. No winners, all losers all the way around. I am not disparaging any one personally. The facts are, everyone is a loser that it has come to this over everyday team stuff. Sad.
Totally agree, there are no winners.
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Totally agree, there are no winners.
Why we need to clear the house after this year
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The letter was written AFTER they lost 4 in a row
The letter was written AFTER numerous attempts to talk to the staff
The letter was written and signed MANY players
If ya'll going to disparage Sam, Joey and Dave...you might as well start disparaging Sacar, Theo, Ed etc.
Have you seen the letter?
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Have you seen the letter?
Has anyone seen it?
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I don't think they were asking the coach to change his entire system. The system was fine. The problem was that more and more Wojo was allowing (encouraging?) Markus to play hero ball outside of the system. You can't be saying "The strength of the team is the team" in press conferences and allowing one guy to totally take over on the court. Players see through that.
This sounds more reasonable to me
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Letter was written just before the BE tournament. It was not a "change our whole offense" letter, it was a "please get through to a certain someone that he can't be freelancing like this anymore" letter. Not a mutiny, but a last ditch effort since previous efforts obviously didn't result in anything.
Interesting.
So the first response after the letter was arguably the best second half performance of the team all season led by...........Markus Howard.
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Totally agree, there are no winners.
Just Scoop's revenue stream!
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I don't think they were asking the coach to change his entire system. The system was fine. The problem was that more and more Wojo was allowing (encouraging?) Markus to play hero ball outside of the system. You can't be saying "The strength of the team is the team" in press conferences and allowing one guy to totally take over on the court. Players see through that.
Kindly look at the shots the last 4 losses, the differential between those games and the season as a whole was less Sam got his shots, and missed
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Interesting.
So the first response after the letter was arguably the best second half performance of the team all season led by...........Markus Howard.
What happened the next day against Seton Hall down the stretch? Anyone recall our last shot in that one?
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What happened the next day against Seton Hall down the stretch? Anyone recall our last shot in that one?
Yes, as I recall, a second-team All-American, the Big East Player of the Year and one of the best shooters in the nation took an open shot that barely missed.
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What happened the next day against Seton Hall down the stretch? Anyone recall our last shot in that one?
I remember a wide open Sam (yes he was open shortly after the inbound) waving his arms while Markus decided he was shooting the ball (never mind her was ice cold) the second he had the ball in his hands. He of course predictably missed. The only true buzzer beater I remember being made last year was Sam’s vs Creighton
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Interesting.
So the first response after the letter was arguably the best second half performance of the team all season led by...........Markus Howard.
Yeah, in the BET vs STJ, Howard took 43% of the shots with an ORtg of 123. In that game, Sam had the same ORtg of 123 but he got 17% of the shots. So the first response was that Howard took forty three percent of the shots and 2.5x the number of shots of Sam.
In the next BET game vs SHU, Howard again took over 40% of the shots, but this time he shot 1-15 in the game. The only thing propping up Howard's ORtg of 88 is the 18-24 from the FT line. In the same game, Sam had an ORtg of 150 with 19% of the shots.
Clearly, lesson learned.
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Yeah, in the BET vs STJ, Howard took 43% of the shots with an ORtg of 123. In that game, Sam had the same ORtg of 123 but he got 17% of the shots. So the first response was that Howard took forty three percent of the shots and 2.5x the number of shots of Sam.
In the next BET game vs SHU, Howard again took over 40% of the shots, but this time he shot 1-15 in the game. The only thing propping up Howard's ORtg of 88 is the 18-24 from the FT line. In the same game, Sam had an ORtg of 150 with 19% of the shots.
Clearly, lesson learned.
Serious question .... how would Coach Henry Sugar have handled the situation?
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I remember a wide open Sam (yes he was open shortly after the inbound) waving his arms while Markus decided he was shooting the ball (never mind her was ice cold) the second he had the ball in his hands. He of course predictably missed. The only true buzzer beater I remember being made last year was Sam’s vs Creighton
As I recall, Sam had missed 5 of his previous 6 shots (and 7 of 9 in the second half). And as I recall, several Scoopers have debunked the theory that Sam was "wide open." Also, as I recall, Markus made numerous clutch, late-game shots during the course of the season.
I have some problems with many of the shots Markus took this season. That one's not high on my list. It obviously is high on yours.
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Just Scoop's revenue stream! (winner)
This is so true. The good news is we have a lot of dollars for Arby's. The bad news is all Marquette area Arby's have lines out the door since the Hausers left.
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As I recall, Sam had missed 5 of his previous 6 shots (and 7 of 9 in the second half). And as I recall, several Scoopers have debunked the theory that Sam was "wide open." Also, as I recall, Markus made numerous clutch, late-game shots during the course of the season.
I have some problems with many of the shots Markus took this season. That one's not high on my list. It obviously is high on yours.
He was open early in the play. The screen shot showing Markus couldn’t get him the ball was late in the play (not that Markus was even looking his direction). And yes I trusted Sam much more to take that shot and was posting in the game chat that I hoped he was taking it.
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I can imagine sacar trying to justify signing the scarlet letter.....
yeah I should have more touches too so I can show off my great moves to the hoop and nearly make a basket
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He was open early in the play. The screen shot showing Markus couldn’t get him the ball was late in the play (not that Markus was even looking his direction). And yes I trusted Sam much more to take that shot and was posting in the game chat that I hoped he was taking it.
All right, you've stated your opinion. I certainly didn't want to revisit one shot taken in one game this season. And if I did, it would be the one that, as you pointed out, Sam made. And Wojo designed. And Markus assisted on.
Moving on to more pressing issues. Like if I can think of some more MU-related lyrics to the tune of The Letter.
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All right, you've stated your opinion. I certainly didn't want to revisit one shot taken in one game this season. And if I did, it would be the one that, as you pointed out, Sam made. And Wojo designed. And Markus assisted on.
Moving on to more pressing issues. Like if I can think of some more MU-related lyrics to the tune of The Letter.
Just yesterday, didn't you say "Do you have a link supporting the "fact" that plays were called for Sam/Joey and Markus intentionally ignored them to jack his own shots? I'd like to know the exact plays in question; if true, that information should be easy to furnish."
So now when certain plays are brought to your attention you don't want get caught up in the minutia of a single play. Some impressive goalpost shifting.
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Just yesterday, didn't you say "Do you have a link supporting the "fact" that plays were called for Sam/Joey and Markus intentionally ignored them to jack his own shots? I'd like to know the exact plays in question; if true, that information should be easy to furnish."
So now when certain plays are brought to your attention you don't want get caught up in the minutia of a single play. Some impressive goalpost shifting.
So you're saying the coaching staff instructed Markus to set up Sam for the final shot vs Seton Hall and he ignored them?
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So you're saying the coaching staff instructed Markus to set up Sam for the final shot vs Seton Hall and he ignored them?
Ditto this question.
I'll hang up and listen for the answer, which I hope will include some evidence.
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Yeah, in the BET vs STJ, Howard took 43% of the shots with an ORtg of 123. In that game, Sam had the same ORtg of 123 but he got 17% of the shots. So the first response was that Howard took forty three percent of the shots and 2.5x the number of shots of Sam.
In the next BET game vs SHU, Howard again took over 40% of the shots, but this time he shot 1-15 in the game. The only thing propping up Howard's ORtg of 88 is the 18-24 from the FT line. In the same game, Sam had an ORtg of 150 with 19% of the shots.
Clearly, lesson learned.
I love that these kinds of stats have taken over basketball.
We're in a position in 2019 where an All-American who shot 8-15 (3-6 from deep) and went 11-11 from the line, and effectively ended the game by moving it from a two possession game into a 20 point lead, should be criticized for being too selfish in posting those numbers.
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Ditto this question.
I'll hang up and listen for the answer, which I hope will include some evidence.
'82, does it really matter?
Referencing your KISS line (which I agree with), it doesn't. This is a damn mess and it is very, very sad.
The worst part about this whole situation is that the parties couldn't come together a few weeks after the season ended to work it out. Trying to air issues, make changes, etc., in the heat of the season, not to mention a losing streak is tough. That said, you would hope that with some time and cooler heads, that common ground and understanding could have been found.
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He was open early in the play. The screen shot showing Markus couldn’t get him the ball was late in the play (not that Markus was even looking his direction). And yes I trusted Sam much more to take that shot and was posting in the game chat that I hoped he was taking it.
He was "open" from 45 feet. That doesn't really count.
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He was "open" from 45 feet. That doesn't really count.
We have the benefit of knowing the end result so guess what, it does count.
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'82, does it really matter?
Referencing your KISS line (which I agree with), it doesn't. This is a damn mess and it is very, very sad.
The worst part about this whole situation is that the parties couldn't come together a few weeks after the season ended to work it out. Trying to air issues, make changes, etc., in the heat of the season, not to mention a losing streak is tough. That said, you would hope that with some time and cooler heads, that common ground and understanding could have been found.
Agreed it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, which is why I didn't bring it up. I do hope you'll agree that if one makes an accusation and pretends he has evidence, that it's human nature for others to want to see the evidence.
And I of course agree that it's a damn shame that adults (both older like Wojo and young like the players) couldn't work this out like, well, adults.
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We have the benefit of knowing the end result so guess what, it does count.
No, it doesn't. And there is a 0% chance Markus could have successfully delivered that pass. 0%.
I'm not even a huge fan of Markus' game. He can play selfishly at times. But he had no choice but to create for himself there. There was no lane for that pass.
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No, it doesn't. And there is a 0% chance Markus could have successfully delivered that pass. 0%.
I'm not even a huge fan of Markus' game. He can play selfishly at times. But he had no choice but to create for himself there. There was no lane for that pass.
You’re referring to late in the clock. I don’t disagree with that. But Markus decided he was shooting the second he got the ball. Under the circumstances I would’ve liked to have seen him work to get an open look for Sam which he obviously had no thought of doing.
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We have the benefit of knowing the end result so guess what, it does count.
Actually it doesn't, in terms of the debate. The result has nothing to do with what is being debated.
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Actually it doesn't, in terms of the debate. The result has nothing to do with what is being debated.
Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
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Agreed it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, which is why I didn't bring it up. I do hope you'll agree that if one makes an accusation and pretends he has evidence, that it's human nature for others to want to see the evidence.
And I of course agree that it's a damn shame that adults (both older like Wojo and young like the players) couldn't work this out like, well, adults.
This is bullcrap. I've shared as much as I possibly could, clearly to a fault, to inform this board of what transpired.
You don't like the substance of said insight and don't want to believe it and that's fine, but don't say crap like "pretends he has evidence" when what I've shared has been vetted and corroborated by multiple people who were there firsthand.
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Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
Just so I understand your position... you wanted the ball to Sam early off the inbound so he would dribble up the floor and ISO/attempt to beat his man off the dribble?
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Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
He could have got him the ball around midcourt. The defender on that side would have come up and forced a pass to Cain in the corner unless the defense completely broke down. There is no scenario where Sam gets an open shot.
Is a Cain wide open corner 3 a better shot than the one Howard got? That's possible.
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Is a Cain wide open corner 3 a better shot than the one Howard got? That's possible.
Cain taking the last shot there would have gone over swimmingly with Scoop.
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Just so I understand your position... you wanted the ball to Sam early off the inbound so he would dribble up the floor and ISO/attempt to beat his man off the dribble?
Around mid court? Absolutely. Sam is more than capable of dribbling into a pull up shooting over a smaller defender which is all Markus ended up doing
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Serious question .... how would Coach Henry Sugar have handled the situation?
Short answer - Diversify the portfolio to reduce risk.
Longer answer -
Understand that players on the roster are generally either role players or higher-usage players for the duration of their college careeer and recruit accordingly
Player development for 3 overall higher-usage players (>20%)
Set the expectation that Sam gets over 20% of possessions
Limit Howard's usage to around 30%
Give Howard the green light to increase usage to around 33-35% for games where MU is an underdog, such as road games.
In retrospect, this issue popped up as early as the K-State game (43%), but also happened vs Wisconsin (47%), Buffalo (51%), and Creighton (50%). That's where I struggle. It worked! However, in those games, Sam's usage averaged 14%. After at least one or two of those games, I would have reset the team approach to avoid having Markus with that much usage.
Last, I'm not a coach, nor do I pretend to be. I've spent way too much time playing around with math, and I understand theory, but fundamentally this was about managing personalities.
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I love that these kinds of stats have taken over basketball.
We're in a position in 2019 where an All-American who shot 8-15 (3-6 from deep) and went 11-11 from the line, and effectively ended the game by moving it from a two possession game into a 20 point lead, should be criticized for being too selfish in posting those numbers.
A bad process with good results is still a bad process.
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A bad process with good results is still a bad process.
And good results are tamped down the second time through a conference when you have a bad process.
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Coach Henry
I think you are spot on.
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Da 'hole fookin' mess kneeds ta bee purged. Starts and ends wit da coach. Give Wojo da heave ho, aina?
I agree with this analysis
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And good results are tamped down the second time through a conference when you have a bad process.
Excellent point, Doc.
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Henry's avatar even looks like he's in a cubicle crunching stats.
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Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
Early in the shot clock?? They inbounded the ball with 7.2 seconds left.
Honestly, it’s statements like these that make me certain that people are intentionally misstating facts to further their pre-conceived agenda. Maybe he could have gotten the ball to Sam with 1.5-2.0 seconds left a few feet past mid court. That’s a lower percentage look than what Markus actually took. I’ll take the shot we got over a nearly half court heave from Sam.
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Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
There were 7 seconds left when Markus got the ball in the backcourt. If he throws the immediate long pass to Sam the way you would have preferred, Sam gets the ball near midcourt with maybe 4-5 seconds left. It is your contention that Sam could have taken the dribbles he needed to get the ball into shooting range and that nobody would have guarded him, thereby leaving him wide open to shoot? Or are you contending that in those 4-5 seconds, Sam would have put a move on a defender or two -- because he was famous for that -- and gotten himself open to shoot a better shot than the one Markus got?
This is bullcrap. I've shared as much as I possibly could, clearly to a fault, to inform this board of what transpired.
You don't like the substance of said insight and don't want to believe it and that's fine, but don't say crap like "pretends he has evidence" when what I've shared has been vetted and corroborated by multiple people who were there firsthand.
Refresh my memory with your evidence that Wojo called a play for Sam to get the ball there, please. I must have missed it earlier. Seriously.
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Sure it does. Howard made a bad decision which resulted in a loss. Here’s the video for anyone who wants to refresh their memory. Plenty of opportunity early in that shot clock to get Sam the ball. Kind of a microcosm of why we’re in the position we are today eh?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game?gameId=401120747
I don't think there is a coach in college basketball, or NBA for that matter that would rather have Sam taking that shot in an iso off the dribble, over Markus dribbling left for a step back three.
My guess is that Markus shoots about 15% higher in that situation throughout his career than Sam.
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A bad process with good results is still a bad process.
It was a bad process that produced a stretch of 20 wins to two losses over the course of 90 days and winning 24 of 34 games overall.
And good results are tamped down the second time through a conference when you have a bad process.
But success wasn't tamped down the second time against Xavier. Or Butler. Or DePaul. Or Providence.
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But success wasn't tamped down the second time against Xavier. Or Butler. Or DePaul. Or Providence.
When the three teams you list feature the 3 teams tied at the bottom of the league & a team that was in the middle of a 6-game losing skid when we played them, that isn't the best supporting evidence of a successful process.
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Short answer - Diversify the portfolio to reduce risk.
Longer answer -
Understand that players on the roster are generally either role players or higher-usage players for the duration of their college careeer and recruit accordingly
Player development for 3 overall higher-usage players (>20%)
Set the expectation that Sam gets over 20% of possessions
Limit Howard's usage to around 30%
Give Howard the green light to increase usage to around 33-35% for games where MU is an underdog, such as road games.
In retrospect, this issue popped up as early as the K-State game (43%), but also happened vs Wisconsin (47%), Buffalo (51%), and Creighton (50%). That's where I struggle. It worked! However, in those games, Sam's usage averaged 14%. After at least one or two of those games, I would have reset the team approach to avoid having Markus with that much usage.
Last, I'm not a coach, nor do I pretend to be. I've spent way too much time playing around with math, and I understand theory, but fundamentally this was about managing personalities.
Thanks for the reply. Your points are well taken, but might I suggest far easier said than done.
As you note, the strategy of alloing Markus high was working - and working beyond expectations. - for most of the season. As a coach, it's your primaru job to win, so it seems counterintuitive at best to suggest a coach shift a way from a strategy that's producing wins because of what's theoretically ideal. As I've said elsewhere, right or wrong, Wojo's strategy was to ride his best player. And it largely worked, until Markus got hurt.
It's fair to criticize Wojo for not adjusting better at that point. I don't think it's fair to criticize him for employing a strategy that had this team in the top 10.
As far as coaching by percentages, again, that's way easier said than done.
Your last point is spot on.
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When the three teams you list feature the 3 teams tied at the bottom of the league & a team that was in the middle of a 6-game losing skid when we played them, that isn't the best supporting evidence of a successful process.
The bottom of the league was 7-11 this season. Two games from third place. This isn't the bottom of the league like DePaul at 1-17 or Marquette at 4-14.
A month ago Scoop was having a collective orgasm over the parity of the conference outside of MU/Nova. But now that the Hausers have left suddenly everything about our season has to be downplayed.
The overall point remains true: our process was so bad that Marquette swept four programs. We finished 12-6 so clearly we won more than we lost the second time through the conference.
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The bottom of the league was 7-11 this season. Two games from third place. This isn't the bottom of the league like DePaul at 1-17 or Marquette at 4-14.
A month ago Scoop was having a collective orgasm over the parity of the conference outside of MU/Nova. But now that the Hausers have left suddenly everything about our season has to be downplayed.
The overall point remains true: our process was so bad that Marquette swept four programs. We finished 12-6 so clearly we won more than we lost the second time through the conference.
Agree with what you say here for the most part. There's a lot of revisionist history. But we did go 8-1 the first time through the conference and 4-5 the second time through, so we didn't win more than we lost.
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As you note, the strategy of alloing Markus high was working - and working beyond expectations.
They did work, though I do think it's worth noting that in two of those instances, Wisconsin & Creighton, we were an eyelash away from those games being losses in regulation. Ed's game-saving block & 5 points in 0.8 seconds were the difference. A big part of why it was working was because early on, we were winning all the 50/50 games. That it balanced out as hard & fast as it did made it apparent just how risky the strategy can be.
For the most part, Marquette was able to flip the script in those games as well as the Louisville game. If those games how they (on paper) should have, I suspect there would be a vastly different opinion of how the season went. They didn't, and the 23-4 start was a blast, but the way we won many of our early games was a bit of a statistical anomaly.
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Agree with what you say here for the most part. There's a lot of revisionist history. But we did go 8-1 the first time through the conference and 4-5 the second time through, so we didn't win more than we lost.
That's not what's meant by "second time through a conference". It's not the first half of the season split by the second half.
It's referring to playing an opponent a second time. The theory being that the opponent now has a better scout on your team from your first meeting rather than relying on video of your games against different teams.
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That's not what's meant by "second time through a conference". It's not the first half of the season split by the second half.
It's referring to playing an opponent a second time. The theory being that the opponent now has a better scout on your team from your first meeting rather than relying on video of your games against different teams.
It doesn’t matter if you look at it 1st half of conference season vs 2nd half or 1st time against opponent vs 2nd. We went 8-1 first time through and 4-5 second time through in both scenarios.
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I thought this thread is funny, looking back at it now...
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=57957.0
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It was a bad process that produced a stretch of 20 wins to two losses over the course of 90 days and winning 24 of 34 games overall, and ALSO produced 1-6 down the stretch including choking away a conference title and failing in the NCAA tourney.
fixed for ya. the bad process produced all of it.
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They did work, though I do think it's worth noting that in two of those instances, Wisconsin & Creighton, we were an eyelash away from those games being losses in regulation. Ed's game-saving block & 5 points in 0.8 seconds were the difference. A big part of why it was working was because early on, we were winning all the 50/50 games. That it balanced out as hard & fast as it did made it apparent just how risky the strategy can be.
Right, but you can play that game both ways. But for a missed shot here, a bad call there, MU beats St. John's at home, beats Georgetown at home, beats Nova on the road (remember ... that was a one possession game with :30 to play), beats Seton Hall in the BE tourney, etc. Can't say the early season success was fluky lucky and also say the late-season slide was just bad strategy.
My argument here isn't that the strategy didn't have risks. Or that it shouldn't have been adjusted when it stopped working. My argument is that it would have been uncommon and just as risky for a coach to abruptly depart from a strategy that was producing winning results because some computer model says so.
To say Wojo should have adjusted and diverged from the strategy when Markus got hurt and the slide began is an entirely fair (and accurate) criticism.
To say in hindsight that the strategy was bad and doomed from the get go (never mind the results) is Thursday morning quarterbacking.
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fixed for ya. the bad process produced all of it.
and ALSO produced the best non-conference for Marquette in nearly a decade. and ALSO produced the Big East player of the year and an All-American. and ALSO produced a Big East Second Team player. and ALSO produced a Big East Freshman Team player
fixed for ya. the bad process produced all of it.
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To say Wojo should have adjusted and diverged from the strategy when Markus got hurt and the slide began is an entirely fair (and accurate) criticism.
To say in hindsight that the strategy was bad and doomed from the get go (never mind the results) is Thursday morning quarterbacking.
I'm not saying it was doomed. Purdue showed that it can work and nearly got to a Final Four with a very similar strategy. However I feel that it's a poor strategy. It requires everything to continue going well for one player. I feel that a more balanced attack that spreads the ball between more players, especially when you have players on your team already that are equally or more efficient, is a better strategy.
Can it work? Sure. But when it does will be the outlier, and I feel a more balanced & diverse attack will be more likely to provide consistent results.
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fixed for ya. the bad process produced all of it.
Individual awards over team success. That's a good encapsulation of Wojo's results.
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Individual awards over team success. That's a good encapsulation of Wojo's results.
Having a player on the First Team, a player on the Second Team, and a player on the Freshman Team is the very definition of team success.
Atypical for an unsuccessful team to accomplish this feat.
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and ALSO produced the best non-conference for Marquette in nearly a decade. and ALSO produced the Big East player of the year and an All-American. and ALSO produced a Big East Second Team player. and ALSO produced a Big East Freshman Team player
fixed for ya. the bad process produced all of it.
and ALSO produced a disastrous end to the conference season and ALSO produced a shameful loss to Seton Hall in the conference tournament and ALSO produced a humiliating first round loss to a mid major of very slender accomplishment and ALSO produced the defection from the program of two extremely important players and ALSO produced massive discontent within the locker room and ALSO produced a team where the players have almost universally lost faith, trust, and confidence in the head coach
Fixed it for ya. Indeed, the bad process is why the Marquette Men's basketball program is in a state of chaos, turmoil, and disarray.
I get that you have zero visibility into the program. But those who do know that Wojo has lost this team. Things are a LOT worse than simply the Hausers leaving.
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Looking back on it maybe it was the best strategy to run the Markus Show. When he lost his ability to jump stop / fade away everything changed. The groin injury and the wrist took his edge away and I guess Wojo didn't have any other plan that late in the season... But if that hadn't happened we probably would be celebrating a great season instead of this.
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Having a player on the First Team, a player on the Second Team, and a player on the Freshman Team is the very definition of team success.
Atypical for an unsuccessful team to accomplish this feat.
You are correct. It is atypical for an unsuccessful team to accomplish this feat.
MU finished 1-6, choked away the conference title, and got embarrassed in the NCAA tourney. That is an unsuccessful team.
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You are correct. It is atypical for an unsuccessful team to accomplish this feat.
MU finished 1-6, choked away the conference title, and got embarrassed in the NCAA tourney. That is an unsuccessful team.
No one disputes that Marquette was a bad team in March.
It just strikes me funny that revisionist historians on Scoop want to deny that in November, December, January, and February Marquette was a very good team even if they hated each other and the coach.
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You are correct. It is atypical for an unsuccessful team to accomplish this feat.
MU finished 1-6, choked away the conference title, and got embarrassed in the NCAA tourney. That is an unsuccessful team.
I really wouldn't expect this level of drama out of you. The last 7 games were an unsuccessful part of an overall solid season. After 5 months of play we had the 17th best resume in the country. That isn't "unsuccessful". Disappointing? Sure. Process is flawed? Sure. Maddening, even? Yup. Not an unsuccessful team.
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Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?
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Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?
Dukiet never made it to the NCAAs in 10 years as a Div I coach. Wojo has already done it twice in 5 years.
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Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?
Not even remotely close. We were practically a D3 program under Dukiet
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Wojo ain't dunn yet workin' his magic, hey?
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I really wouldn't expect this level of drama out of you. The last 7 games were an unsuccessful part of an overall solid season. After 5 months of play we had the 17th best resume in the country. That isn't "unsuccessful". Disappointing? Sure. Process is flawed? Sure. Maddening, even? Yup. Not an unsuccessful team.
When the losses come in the season matters. Knowing what we know now it sure looks like wojo lost the team. That's a failure plain and simple. Also, if Wojo has lost this team, then he is dead man walking I am not sure how he comes back from that.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but "very slender accomplishment" has to be in the Scoop meme tournament, yeah?
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Looking back on it maybe it was the best strategy to run the Markus Show. When he lost his ability to jump stop / fade away everything changed. The groin injury and the wrist took his edge away and I guess Wojo didn't have any other plan that late in the season... But if that hadn't happened we probably would be celebrating a great season instead of this.
Isn’t that the crux of the problem? When the Markus show wasn’t working anymore, Wojo didn’t rein it in. It sort of fet like our strategy was to hope Markus could shoot his way out of it rather than working through Sam.
I commented many times that we went away from Sam in the short corner that was so successful last year. Maybe it was the addition of Joey, Ed, and more Theo.
Also, one of the lowest points for me was at the end of the Georgetown game where Wojo was looking at an official to scream at over a foul. It looked like a guy who didn’t have any answers.
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Isn’t that the crux of the problem? When the Markus show wasn’t working anymore, Wojo didn’t rein it in. It sort of fet like our strategy was to hope Markus could shoot his way out of it rather than working through Sam.
I commented many times that we went away from Sam in the short corner that was so successful last year. Maybe it was the addition of Joey, Ed, and more Theo.
Also, one of the lowest points for me was at the end of the Georgetown game where Wojo was looking at an official to scream at over a foul. It looked like a guy who didn’t have any answers.
Except that it was a foul. Wojo was correct. It cost MU the game.
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No one disputes that Marquette was a bad team in March.
It just strikes me funny that revisionist historians on Scoop want to deny that in November, December, January, and February Marquette was a very good team even if they hated each other and the coach.
Finishes are what matters. Nobody cares how you played in November.
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No one disputes that Marquette was a bad team in March.
It just strikes me funny that revisionist historians on Scoop want to deny that in November, December, January, and February Marquette was a very good team even if they hated each other and the coach.
You are correct. Let me clarify.
The very good results and the very bad results are two sides of the same coin. It’s all part of overweighting the usage towards one player. The variance of the results is a feature, not a bug.
Overweighting usage towards one player is a strategy most commonly used by bad teams. Good teams, like Marquette, should minimize variance of results.
The primary reason to avoid overweighting usage is exactly what happened. Injuries are a fact of life.
Wojo opted to use a risky strategy and it worked until it imploded. I believe that this was a coaching mistake by Wojo because of both the theory and the data.
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I really wouldn't expect this level of drama out of you. The last 7 games were an unsuccessful part of an overall solid season. After 5 months of play we had the 17th best resume in the country. That isn't "unsuccessful". Disappointing? Sure. Process is flawed? Sure. Maddening, even? Yup. Not an unsuccessful team.
I don’t believe in Wojo anymore.
I can make a compelling argument, with theory and data, that Wojo’s coaching inflexibility is a tax on Marquette that has/will negatively impact results for three consecutive years (last year, this year, next year). He is inflexible, under-coaches as a result, and Marquette underachieves.
Saying this brings me no joy.
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I don’t believe in Wojo anymore.
I can make a compelling argument, with theory and data, that Wojo’s coaching inflexibility is a tax on Marquette that has/will negatively impact results for three consecutive years (last year, this year, next year). He is inflexible, under-coaches as a result, and Marquette underachieves.
Saying this brings me no joy.
My biggest disappointment this year was definitely Markus' usage. I was hoping for a 2017 redux, when we had numerous options & threats all over the floor. What frustrates me is we've seen the kind of offense Wojo can run, but too often he allows ball dominant players to overpower what would likely be a more effective team approach.
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I don’t believe in Wojo anymore.
I can make a compelling argument, with theory and data, that Wojo’s coaching inflexibility is a tax on Marquette that has/will negatively impact results for three consecutive years (last year, this year, next year). He is inflexible, under-coaches as a result, and Marquette underachieves.
Saying this brings me no joy.
Agreed. I’ve been steady in my belief, which predates the Hauser fiasco, that next year would be Wojo’s last. The question marks surrounding his ability/inability to coach shouldn’t still be questions five years in. And now we can openly question his leadership. I wish they’d have pulled the plug after the season.
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You are correct. Let me clarify.
The very good results and the very bad results are two sides of the same coin. It’s all part of overweighting the usage towards one player. The variance of the results is a feature, not a bug.
Overweighting usage towards one player is a strategy most commonly used by bad teams. Good teams, like Marquette, should minimize variance of results.
The primary reason to avoid overweighting usage is exactly what happened. Injuries are a fact of life.
Wojo opted to use a risky strategy and it worked until it imploded. I believe that this was a coaching mistake by Wojo because of both the theory and the data.
What troubles me about this is this: is overweighting usage towards one player truly a strategy or is it an outcome of an imbalanced roster?
I have a hard time believing that any coach is going to say ahead of time that he wants one guy to take 30-40% of all shots. I think that guy takes that percentage of shots as the result of a combination of factors including a) ability to create, b) lack of that ability by others, c) reticence to shoot by others, etc., etc.
It’s fine to look at it after the fact and draw conclusions based on the data, but to somehow say that it was the team’s strategy going in seems like an awfully big reach.
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Henry
I pointed out during the good run that Wojo was basically coaching in a win now philosophy. The early wins were highlighted by individual(s) high level performance and he ran with that until ran out of gas. In his five years at MU, he is utilized this system. From Carlino, to Henry, to Rowsey and then Howard, the system has been hoping one or two guys could carry a team.
IMO, it is either he has little or no confidence in majority of the talent level or he does not know how to coach. In all my years of watching MU ball I have never seen so many individual performances. This is the exact point I was making a month ago in regards to a lack of system. Having one or two guys score 60, 70 or higher percent of points is not a way to build a foundation. Worse, it causes animosity among the ranks.
IMO, it comes down to the talent recruited. There are guys on this team that likely could have been coached up and been real contributors if Wojo has the chops to coach them up.
Lastly, it is virtually impossible to have long term success when team success is counting on a guy to score 40. As I have said many times, I believe Wojo is in way over his head.
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Agreed. I’ve been steady in my belief, which predates the Hauser fiasco, that next year would be Wojo’s last. The question marks surrounding his ability/inability to coach shouldn’t still be questions five years in. And now we can openly question his leadership. I wish they’d have pulled the plug after the season.
yes, but one has to think the admin had to have had some knowledge that there was discord at minimum. that being said, i guess the admin wanting to stick with our mission statement prevented them from interfering err sumpin
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Goose, I think you are on point.
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IMO, it comes down to the talent recruited. There are guys on this team that likely could have been coached up and been real contributors if Wojo has the chops to coach them up.
Do you mean like Theo John and Sacar have been? They've made tremendous strides. So has Howard.
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Forgetful
I am taking game in and game out real contributors. The two guys noted had moments, not consistent game performances. In addition, if that is being coached up, the talent level is lower than I thought. I will say, both are better players than I thought they would ever be, but really just role players. If that is the talent level and bar, losing two of top three players is even bigger loss.
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Forgetful
I am taking game in and game out real contributors. The two guys noted had moments, not consistent game performances. In addition, if that is being coached up, the talent level is lower than I thought. I will say, both are better players than I thought they would ever be, but really just role players. If that is the talent level and bar, losing two of top three players is even bigger loss.
Not disagreeing on some aspects of what you are saying. My only point was, that he has done wonders so far with both of them. That means he can coach people up. He also completely rebuilt Jujuan Johnson's shot, something the previous coach failed at for years. That means the ability is there. Wojo is also very well respected at the college and NBA level as a bigs coach/developer. So he has to have the ability.
I actually think his biggest problem is not properly recruiting to his system. The Hauser's are great people, and players, but they honestly do not fit Wojo's system well. So when you recruit them, you have two choices. Get them to buy-in to your system, and play their role, even though it is sub-optimal for them, or re-design your system to accommodate them.
One of those has to be achieved, or individuals will part ways.
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Two players who got any playing time at all didn't improve under Wojo's watch the last couple of years: Cain ... and Joey.
Now, if the guys who will give Wojo absolutely no credit for anything want, they can call that an accident, or give all credit to the players for improving despite him, or give some credit to the assistants and the rest to the players, or whatever.
But to deny that Markus, Sam, Sacar, Theo, Bailey, Heldt, etc, didn't improve the last 2-3 years is just being stubborn for the sake of it.
The "My Babies, They Wrote Me A Letter" fiasco has pushed me to the Wojo's On The Clock camp, but that doesn't mean I have to make believe he doesn't deserve some credit for some things he has accomplished.
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MU 82
As I said in previous post, I will concede there was improvement with some of the players you noted. But, none of the improvement was enough for any of those noted to be real contributors on regular basis. They have had moments, but from guys you can count in every game.
Note, I am not talking about Sam or Markus. They came to MU with higher skill set and have had normal progression.
Will add, I would hope every player would make progress YOY regardless of coach. I am not smart enough ball guy to break down major improvements with the guys you noted. I will take your word that Wojo made guys better.
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MU 82
As I said in previous post, I will concede there was improvement with some of the players you noted. But, none of the improvement was enough for any of those noted to be real contributors on regular basis. They have had moments, but from guys you can count in every game.
Note, I am not talking about Sam or Markus. They came to MU with higher skill set and have had normal progression.
Will add, I would hope every player would make progress YOY regardless of coach. I am not smart enough ball guy to break down major improvements with the guys you noted. I will take your word that Wojo made guys better.
We agree on much of this, although I don't think it's "normal" for even a highly skilled player to progress to being an All-American and his conference's POY.
再见，好好玩
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You are correct. Let me clarify.
The very good results and the very bad results are two sides of the same coin. It’s all part of overweighting the usage towards one player. The variance of the results is a feature, not a bug.
Overweighting usage towards one player is a strategy most commonly used by bad teams. Good teams, like Marquette, should minimize variance of results.
The primary reason to avoid overweighting usage is exactly what happened. Injuries are a fact of life.
Wojo opted to use a risky strategy and it worked until it imploded. I believe that this was a coaching mistake by Wojo because of both the theory and the data.
Matt Painter and Purdue did the same thing. Except their results were flipped -- underwhelming team performances early with exceedingly good performances late.
Was Painter lucky? How do we determine which of the multitude of coaches who go with this risky strategy will never see it implode?
If Markus doesn't strain his groin nor sprain his wrist and is playing healthy in March does the overweight usage hurt us? Or do we still turn it over 25 times against Creighton? Do we still allow Hall to end the game on an 18-0 run? Do we still allow the Hoyas backcourt to drop 50 on us? Do we still endure a monumentally incompetent performance by the officials against Hall in MSG?
Marquette lost some weird ass games at the end of the season. Not sure it's all down to relying on Howard too much. Certainly not with the defense we witnessed.
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Did anyone waych when Marcus wasnt in the game???
This team really struggled to score and even bring the ball up the court.
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Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?
This is such a horrible comparison one can only surmise a poor effort at humor. There could not be a poorer comparison.
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Y'all are watchin' Coach Dukiet v2, live up close and personal, aina?
Into your office's stash of laughing gas doc?
Even if every season was like Ellenson year he'd have more to hang his hat on than dukiet.
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“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato
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This is such a horrible comparison one can only surmise a poor effort at humor. There could not be a poorer comparison.
That’s just because Wojo can’t play the piano.
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“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato
Then speak it.
97–69 Big East (or any chunk of three years of his) > 39–46 Independent
Wojo might never be better than what he is currently but in the absolute least he's on par with Deane
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Galway
At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.
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Galway
At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.
97–69 Big East seems at least on par with 100–55 in the Great Midwest/CUSA. Both two tournament appearances, Wojo a better recruiter, Deane better XOs (from what I hear). I don't know what you're using to compare but it seems to like it's fair to say he's on par.
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Galway
We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?
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Galway
We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?
I don't doubt that any of that is true however it did not happen or at least has not as of today. I am purely going off of on the court results and the results show me that they're pretty darn even and in the least Doc is using some major Hyperbole with the dukiet comparison.
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Galway
I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.
What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.
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Galway
We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?
Who are the other two? Anim and Morrow?
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Galway
I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.
What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.
If I had any knowledge of the background dealings perhaps I might be in agreement with you. But my insider knowledge is far less than the little club you guys seem to have.
I very much want sustained success as well not sure it's just an old timer thing, my first 5yrs of being a fan were the second greatest stretch in MU history, and I would very much like that to return.
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“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
— Plato
Plato would ask what truth you are speaking.
Dukiet compares in no way. He lost to Fordham, Iona, Loyola. Never beat Wisconsin to my recollection. Had his team score 12 points against Notre Dame. No NCAA berths. Did this as an independent playing a sorry schedule.
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Galway
I think Doc is thinking about the overall state of the program. Wojo has had Deane like success, nothing to talk home about, but current mess could derail the program. Dukiet took program to the lowest of the lows. If Wojo does not right the ship, he could have things get out of hand.
What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success. A rebuild timetable means little to me if the end game is long term success. What is going on now in the program, puts a great deal of doubt over direction of program.
He has had better success than Deane. Coach Deane did very little with his players. Wojo has gone to two NCAA tournaments with basically only his players with a small exception. Deane could not recruit. Wojo can.
Wojo may not be the right person, but these comparisons by fellow old timers to some of our coaches is not earning any respect points.
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WarriorDad
MU scored 12 points against ND?
As for comparisons to former coaches, I will wait until the Wojo era is over before making conclusions. That said, a lot will be based off condition he leaves program upon his departure. At this point, I believe there are a lot moving pieces at the moment.
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What is funny to me, us old timers are less interested in one season or quick success, we want sustainable success.
Which is why several have repeatedly ripped Wojo for not signing a 1-and-done whom the precious Hausers didn't even want on the team? Huh? Which do folks want? Sustainable success or Herro-quick success?
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MU 82
The signing of one and done is both a short and long term success. Continually signing top recruits feeds off of itself. To me, the long term success outweighs the short term. I really thought Wojo would build off the Henry signing, but things did not materialize.
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Galway
We never had a major problem of the team not trusting their head coach. We were very close to having four of top seven returning players transfer. How would the program look at that point?
I've heard some things that lead me to believe Wojo's reaction to the transfer has been better than the events that led to the transfer. I'm cautiously hoping that will help restore some of that trust. Also don't think anyone else will be leaving, though those were very real concerns. How Wojo handles the next season will be critical to his future & he should deliver on very high expectations if he's going to continue. I certainly feel better than I did a week ago when all this was becoming public.
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MU 82
The signing of one and done is both a short and long term success. Continually signing top recruits feeds off of itself. To me, the long term success outweighs the short term. I really thought Wojo would build off the Henry signing, but things did not materialize.
Well, if signing two beloved Hausers, a future 25 ppg All-American, the future Big East blocked-shot leader and a few other potentially good players equals "did not materialize," I guess you've got a point there, Goose.
As for that particular 1-and-done ... what if the Hausers left because Wojo signed him? I could just hear the caterwauling about that one! Again, we're back to the circular reasoning. Wojo letting himself get influenced by the Hausers re Herro is bad; Wojo not letting himself get influenced by the Hausers re Markus also is bad. It's dizzying.
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Wojo letting himself get influenced by the Hausers re Herro is bad; Wojo not letting himself get influenced by the Hausers re Markus also is bad. It's dizzying.
I think the biggest mistake Wojo made was not that the transfer happened, but running the offense the way he did. 2017 is the model he should be working off. No one played much over 26 mpg, 5 players hit 50 threes, 7 guys scored 8+ ppg. More guys involved, more diverse offense.
What may have hamstrung this team was the combination of Greg's injury & Chartouny not being a Big East player, which led to Markus out there constantly & Wojo was unable or unwilling to reel him in when necessary. No matter who's here next year, I think a more diverse offense, less reliance on 1-2 individuals, & a better minutes spread is the key to keeping everyone happier.
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Selection of unsolicited opening thoughts from friends and coworkers who have approached me to talk about the Hausers....
"What are they thinking writing a letter to the coach in the middle of the season?"
"24-10 and they are bitching about their touches?"
"Let me get this straight. Markus Howard returns so they leave? WTF?"
" They're mad because Markus shot too much? See ya."
These are opening lines from people who only have me as a connection to Marquette. These are how they started their conversations with me about it. Not my comments, theirs. As the discussions went on, they expressed shock/outrage/amusement that players would try to dictate style of play to a coach, all saying in one way or another that is not how it is done.
Just a view from the other side of the lake from Wolverine and Spartan fans. The Spartan fans will take them and laugh at the notion of them trying to work Izzo for more touches.
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I think the biggest mistake Wojo made was not that the transfer happened, but running the offense the way he did. 2017 is the model he should be working off. No one played much over 26 mpg, 5 players hit 50 threes, 7 guys scored 8+ ppg. More guys involved, more diverse offense.
What may have hamstrung this team was the combination of Greg's injury & Chartouny not being a Big East player, which led to Markus out there constantly & Wojo was unable or unwilling to reel him in when necessary. No matter who's here next year, I think a more diverse offense, less reliance on 1-2 individuals, & a better minutes spread is the key to keeping everyone happier.
This was a team with really one guard, a bunch of forwards and 2 centers. It was painful watching Chartouny, one of the least athletic players I’ve seen in my years of watching MU BB. He was mostly overwhelmed in BE play. Wojo really needed to give Markus more rest and play Brendan and Jamal more to get the better minutes spread. Kind of a Catch 22 from a ball handling perspective. But without Greg and given Chartouny’s issues.......
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This was a team with really one guard, a bunch of forwards and 2 centers. It was painful watching Chartouny, one of the least athletic players I’ve seen in my years of watching MU BB. He was mostly overwhelmed in BE play. Wojo really needed to give Markus more rest and play Brendan and Jamal more to get the better minutes spread. Kind of a Catch 22 from a ball handling perspective. But without Greg and given Chartouny’s issues.......
I think Wojo's biggest mistake was not having Greg come back after the Wisconsin game. He was able to play if needed.
He was needed.
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Plato would ask what truth you are speaking.
Dukiet compares in no way. He lost to Fordham, Iona, Loyola. Never beat Wisconsin to my recollection. Had his team score 12 points against Notre Dame. No NCAA berths. Did this as an independent playing a sorry schedule.
See Goose's interpretation of my comments above. Could give a rat's ass about record comparisons. More interested in building and sustaining a elite program. Dukiet took us to mid-major status. Frankly, Wojo is at a crossroad in his program's trajectory.
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I think Wojo's biggest mistake was not having Greg come back after the Wisconsin game. He was able to play if needed.
He was needed.
With things going so well through 23-4, it was hard to burn the redshirt. In the end, guard depth was really needed. Coulda...shoulda........?
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Which is why several have repeatedly ripped Wojo for not signing a 1-and-done whom the precious Hausers didn't even want on the team? Huh? Which do folks want? Sustainable success or Herro-quick success?
They are not mutually exclusive. Success breeds success. See Duke as an example
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With things going so well through 23-4, it was hard to burn the redshirt. In the end, guard depth was really needed. Coulda...shoulda........?
Agreed. I thought it was the right decision at the time.
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After digesting loads and loads of knowing speculation, inside information and flat out guesses, I finally have the answer to the topic question: Beef and Cheddar.
I don't really know how the hunk of roast beef holds together, I'm not sure whats in the cheddar sauce, and I don't think anyone really wants to know what goes into the horsey sauce, so I'm just going to order it, enjoy it, and move on.
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Agreed. I thought it was the right decision at the time.
I thought it was a terrible idea at the time. I thought Marquette would need him and the was when I still had hope for Chartouny.
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Can’t wojo nix the move to Madison? Buzz released Maymon to any school EXCEPT big east
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Can’t wojo nix the move to Madison? Buzz released Maymon to any school EXCEPT big east
No, you can't block transfers anymore.
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MU 82
The signing of one and done is both a short and long term success. Continually signing top recruits feeds off of itself. To me, the long term success outweighs the short term. I really thought Wojo would build off the Henry signing, but things did not materialize.
The teams that are winning it all now are junior and senior driven teams. The Kentucky and Duke one-and-done are not going far in the tournament. Isn't that what some of you are pushing for as success metric?
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See Goose's interpretation of my comments above. Could give a rat's ass about record comparisons. More interested in building and sustaining a elite program. Dukiet took us to mid-major status. Frankly, Wojo is at a crossroad in his program's trajectory.
Then with respect, you shouldn't make those comparisons then. The one you made was terribly wrong.
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WarriorDad
MU scored 12 points against ND?
As for comparisons to former coaches, I will wait until the Wojo era is over before making conclusions. That said, a lot will be based off condition he leaves program upon his departure. At this point, I believe there are a lot moving pieces at the moment.
In the first half, the team was booed off the court. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1988-01-10-8803210247-story.html
We agree how he leaves the program will judge his legacy, but I cannot help but think we have fans that use circular logic continuously to justify their reasoning to support or hate on our coaches. Not a very solid approach.
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WarriorDad
12 points at halftime was one of the all time low moments in program history. I misunderstood your post when you statecwe scored 12 points against ND. Sadly, remember the night all too well.
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In the Sweet 16 game against UNC, I think MU only had 15 in the first half
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Galway
At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.
I agree with this analysis.
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In the Sweet 16 game against UNC, I think MU only had 15 in the first half
In the game against Syracuse, we only had 39 for the entire contest. 18 and 21 for the halves.
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think it was this thread where sacar bailing early on the post game presser was discussed but not sure, so many long threads its hard to find what youre looking for.
at any rate, the mubb instagram account has an archived story from that game. they have video of wojo walking into the locker room with a swagger walk to some blasting music and everyone, including sacar front and center, join him in his little dance.
but maybe he was going back and forth from having fun to being fed up with his coach and team.
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Galway
At the moment, he is no Mike Deane.
I worked for Mike for 4.5 years. Enjoyed it. Good coach, not a good recruiter. Treated me well.
Wojo is no Mike Deane, and that is a good thing for where we want the program to go. I'm a little surprised people would even be suggesting otherwise.
Mike's first team had Tony Miller (Sr PG), Pieper, Crawford (future NBA), McCaskill (future NBA), Hutchins, Eford, Abraham and Gates (Sr). Hard to believe that team didn't make the NCAA tournament with that cast. We were 7-5 in conference. Started the year 8-1, but then lost to VaTech, UWGB, blown out by 25+ to Cincinnati at home over a 4 game stretch. Never really got it going until the very end when it was too late.
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Mike Deane was a mediocre coach and a horrible recruiter.
And, from what I know, a pretty pathetic guy. My little brother used to bartend at Turners, and he said Deane would get all shyte-faced and then try to pick up 20-year-olds, who rejected him for the old man loser he was.
Wojo is at least as good a coach, is 10x the recruiter and, to the best of my knowledge, is not a pathetic old man. It's a silly comparison, as is Wojo to Dukiet, who never accomplished a fraction of what Wojo has so far.
So please. There are plenty of ways to rip on Wojo without comparing him to Dukiet and Deane.
And I'm one who primarily blames Wojo for the Hauser fiasco.
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
Be more specific next time. If enough people misunderstand something it's usually the person that said it wrong.
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
we're being relegated from the Big East to the Missouri Valley Conference?
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
Oh. Thanks for explaining. It's still a silly comparison.
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
Dukiet was the low point. Wojo's teams have gotten steadily better over his tenure. The comparison is absurd.
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Yeah that's still a terrible comparison.
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Lotta golf yet ta bee played, hey?
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Y'all are misunderstanding the Wojo to Dukiet comparison. No on the court similarities, at all. Simply, Steve has the potential to take this program to the dark depths that Bob did when he left decades ago. Let's see who he brings in to fill the roster now, at this late stage of the recruiting season for 2019.
Wojo plays the piano??
You're really comparing a coach those high point was recruiting Trevor Powell, with one that JUST had a top 25 team and a Big East Player of the Year?
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Wojo plays the piano??
You're really comparing a coach those high point was recruiting Trevor Powell, with one that JUST had a top 25 team and a Big East Player of the Year?
I'd say that's only the 2nd highest point. The first was convincing Tony Smith to honor his commitment.
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Gotta golf yet ta bee played, hey?
Already accomplished more. The comparison was over year 3.
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HE DIDN'T HAVE ONE....that is what I been trying to say!
Not if he wanted to win... it just came down to players allowing outside influences to come between them and the big picture instead of working it out and sticking as one to get it done, instead of worrying about touches and shots...
When you are a 'one man team' and that one man is an All American and an elite scorer as there is in the country, and you are winning with that set-up, the other guys have to buy in and not play Aaron Rodgers and sabotage the rest of the season because they are made over not getting enough of the love.
A weak PG is this teams problem. . . not a bad coach. It's won on the floor. The guy who should have been off the ball was with the ball and on the ball way too much but you had no choice...because jump shooters dont get it done in college basketball.
Scorers do and those who can also dish and pass and lead. Our guy could do only 2 or the 3...passing, court vision, ball handling and court and skill awareness and TRUST of your teammates [which is mature Leadership] was missing at times.
Sometimes a guy can think he is so good he don't have to trust others and or he is trusting himself more than others and the right play, if they think they are the right play. . .
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Can’t wojo nix the move to Madison? Buzz released Maymon to any school EXCEPT big east
No....Wisconsin is in the Big 10 not the Big East...
So no, he can't. And why should he?
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ND sucks
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ND sucks
Bigly
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ND sucks
Absolutely an Amen!
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So, if the latest version of 'the letter' is to be believed... the rift between Joey and Markus.... penning a letter that no other teammates signed... shoving match post Murray State (which has been referenced before)..... Joey not coming back if Markus did...... back to the original question. What was Wojo's alternative?
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So, if the latest version of 'the letter' is to be believed... the rift between Joey and Markus.... penning a letter that no other teammates signed... shoving match post Murray State (which has been referenced before)..... Joey not coming back if Markus did...... back to the original question. What was Wojo's alternative?
Recruit higher character players that dont whine so much.
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Recruit higher character players that dont whine so much.
The highest rated players are also the ones that expect to play and have rarely had to deal with adversity in their high school careers.
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I'm neutral on the Wojo issue, but dissatisfaction with the coach and other issues of discontent are not unusual in sports. Those who are old enough remember when Jim Ringo, all-pro center for the Packers went into Coach Lombardi's office during salary negotiations, and announced that he had an agent and further talk would have to be with him. Lombardi excused himself for a moment, and returned to tell Ringo that it didn't matter because he had just been traded to Philadelphia. Wojo is no Lombardi, but unhappiness is universal.
PS Would someone please tell me how to post on this board when there are no choices below the text in boxes.
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You know what I want????
I WANT TO KNOW WHY I HAD TO GO TO THE...FREAKING...DODDS...BOARD...TO HEAR ABOUT THIS LETTER.
What do I want?
I WANT MY MONEY BACK. REFUND MY SUBSCRIPTION NOW PLUS 25%! NOW!
Sorry - I will be here for the next one. Hopefully with better news!
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Operating under the premise that the letter narrative and the willing to return if Markus left narrative are accurate in their themes, then Wojo's biggest mistake was letting the Hausers remain on the team. If, indeed, the letter arrived after two losses to take the team to 23-6, and if, indeed, it had been shared with teammates prior to delivery to Wojo (they either signed it or encouraged the Hausers not to deliver it) then the Hausers essentially torpedoed the rest of the season. Wojo should have thrown their butts off the team immediately. Pulled Greg's redshirt.
I usually try to take 'Marquette' out of my reasoning process when an situation happens at Marquette. How would I react if the exact same thing happened at (not Marquette)? If I heard that two starters went to complain to the coach about the offense at 23-6. That they went to complain about a team captain, conference player of the year, second team all american dominating the ball, I would expect that the coach would suspend them. I would expect that they would not have the option to return if the aforementioned player went pro.
After beating #1 Villanova, the team went into a swoon. With a week without games coming up, Wojo announced that every position was up for grabs and would be determined by effort in practice. Heldt began starting after that week. JjJ was DNP-CD because he showed up late for practice. Wojo did the right thing then. I am disappointed he pulled his punches with the Hausers.
It boggles my mind that anybody is taking the Hausers' side in this. They left. Apparently because they felt they could no longer co-exist with Markus. Who stayed. Assuming that the letter and the willingness to stay if Markus narrative are essentially accurate, how can they possibly be seen as the good guys?
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Operating under the premise that the letter narrative and the willing to return if Markus left narrative are accurate in their themes, then Wojo's biggest mistake was letting the Hausers remain on the team. If, indeed, the letter arrived after two losses to take the team to 23-6, and if, indeed, it had been shared with teammates prior to delivery to Wojo (they either signed it or encouraged the Hausers not to deliver it) then the Hausers essentially torpedoed the rest of the season. Wojo should have thrown their butts off the team immediately. Pulled Greg's redshirt.
I usually try to take 'Marquette' out of my reasoning process when an situation happens at Marquette. How would I react if the exact same thing happened at (not Marquette)? If I heard that two starters went to complain to the coach about the offense at 23-6. That they went to complain about a team captain, conference player of the year, second team all american dominating the ball, I would expect that the coach would suspend them. I would expect that they would not have the option to return if the aforementioned player went pro.
After beating #1 Villanova, the team went into a swoon. With a week without games coming up, Wojo announced that every position was up for grabs and would be determined by effort in practice. Heldt began starting after that week. JjJ was DNP-CD because he showed up late for practice. Wojo did the right thing then. I am disappointed he pulled his punches with the Hausers.
It boggles my mind that anybody is taking the Hausers' side in this. They left. Apparently because they felt they could no longer co-exist with Markus. Who stayed. Assuming that the letter and the willingness to stay if Markus narrative are essentially accurate, how can they possibly be seen as the good guys?
Who knows if that narrative is accurate, though? No one. The only side I’m on is that it was Wojo’s job to keep the roster together and manage egos, and he couldn’t do it. That’s one of the reasons he’s paid the big bucks.
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Maybe the best way to manage the egos is to let them walk.
The inmates never get to run the asylum.
And if you read a similar story about any other school, would you blame the coach or the players?
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Who knows if that narrative is accurate, though? No one. The only side I’m on is that it was Wojo’s job to keep the roster together and manage egos, and he couldn’t do it. That’s one of the reasons he’s paid the big bucks.
Sometimes it is impossible....there is a reason why 800 players transfer a year now. You can wish for unicorns all you want, and maybe more could have been done, but this is how it is in this sport now.
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Amen Tower. If that was indeed the scenario,
I agree fully.
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Who knows if that narrative is accurate, though? No one. The only side I’m on is that it was Wojo’s job to keep the roster together and manage egos, and he couldn’t do it. That’s one of the reasons he’s paid the big bucks.
If you're grading NCAA basketball coaches on keeping the roster together then failing in that regard is the norm. Happens to 80% of the programs every April.
Also, don't conflate keeping an ego happy with dancing on eggshells around discontent.
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The easy and obvious counter argument is that, other than timing, what is the difference between the Hausers telling Wojo they don't want to stay in that offense and a recruit rejecting Wisconsin because they don't want to play slowly in the swing?
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If you're grading NCAA basketball coaches on keeping the roster together then failing in that regard is the norm. Happens to 80% of the programs every April.
Also, don't conflate keeping an ego happy with dancing on eggshells around discontent.
Major programs do not lose a three year starter. I’d imagine when this does happen (lose a starter) it is a situation where a major upgrade in talent is coming which will impact mins (ala Shayok even though I think he was the sixth man). This wasn’t normal and isn’t akin to 80% of programs having transfers.
Now the debating whether the situation was unsalvageable and Wojo playing it properly seems fair. However he is accountable as the head of the program regardless of opinion.
By the way. If Sam was such a jerk why did Wojo give him co-MVP. Seems like a bad move if the new narrative is true (Hausers as villains).
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If he is co MVP, why does he want to leave? You would think that someone who has been so immersed in the program would have bought in and not abandoned his teammates
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If he is co MVP, why does he want to leave?
I don’t know — but I’ve quit my job before for a better opportunity. I’ve known people to leave because they did not like the organization. I’ve seen them leave because they hate their boss. And sure sometimes they leave because they are a bad fit. There are a million things and I’m not Sam.
Hauser as villain though works great if you are a fan.
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Wojo and Markus as villain works for others.
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Wojo and Markus as villain works for others.
Again calling into question Wojos actions that led to this odd situation seems fair—he is the head of the program. If you aren’t questioning it I’d be surprised. If this happened to Gard last year with Happ I am sure we would have a 20 page thread of glee and scorn.
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Again calling into question Wojos actions that led to this odd situation seems fair—he is the head of the program. If you aren’t questioning it I’d be surprised. If this happened to Gard last year with Happ I am sure we would have a 20 page thread of glee and scorn.
But questioning why a guy who started from day 1 for the last 3 years, played 30+ mpg the last 2 years, and averaged 15 ppg would bail on a projected top 10 (even top 2 if you look at ESPN) team in the country means you’re making the kid a villain...
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Maybe the best way to manage the egos is to let them walk.
The inmates never get to run the asylum.
And if you read a similar story about any other school, would you blame the coach or the players?
The buck always stops with the coach, bruh.
It should have never gotten to the point where the inmates had the idea to try to run the asylum.
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The buck always stops with the coach, bruh.
It should have never gotten to the point where the inmates had the idea to try to run the asylum.
Some inmates will always try to run the asylum. It’s why there are almost 3 transfers per program per year in D1 basketball right now.
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If he is co MVP, why does he want to leave? You would think that someone who has been so immersed in the program would have bought in and not abandoned his teammates
Interesting perspective.
Also interesting that we heard little negative about Sam before he left the program. Was he not very easy to coach (i.e. according to Wojo), did he not share the ball and encourage his teammates, was he not touted as a model team player?
Do we really think the reason why he left after 3 solid years was due to an insignificant issue? And if it was trivial why did UVA decide to take a headcase that is a quitter? Does UVA not have enough talent and do they think they can turn this so called quitter around in a year?
Maybe you are correct. I do not know the details. I would suggest, however, people do not change personalities overnight and I do not believe Sam Hauser was a quitter.
This issue is tragic for all concerned. I wish it could have turned out differently. I also wish that we can be a final 4 team next year. But t is not so simple. What is simple, is like it or not, the Hauser's are gone and Wojo will continue to be the coach. We can blame whoever we want but MU's course is now set in a different direction. We will find out what that direction is next year and all the speculation as to how it will turn out is largely groundless.
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But questioning why a guy who started from day 1 for the last 3 years, played 30+ mpg the last 2 years, and averaged 15 ppg would bail on a projected top 10 (even top 2 if you look at ESPN) team in the country means you’re making the kid a villain...
I am sure the players are not pure in this situation - there was a divorce.
However, I’ve seen people saying Sam tanked our season, should have been thrown off the team for the ‘letter’, etc. That is what I mean as Hauser as villain. It’s a great argument if you want to absolve MUs accountability or want to believe it’s a black swan event.
Everyone who wants to blame players for this great - go for it. I believe though it’s misplaced because none of them are in charge of the program.
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800 transfers this year. Almost all because they want more. Sam was happy at Marquette. So much so that his brother came. Wojo was by Joey's side during his surgery. Sam's numbers went up versus his sophomore year. He is a team captain and co MVP. Joey was averaging 29 minutes a game and nearly 10 points as a freshman. MU was 23-4 and in the top 10. And the Hausers decide to leave. But they'll stay if Markus goes. And they leave and everyone else chooses to stay.
Best of luck in your future endeavors.
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800 transfers this year. Almost all because they want more. Sam was happy at Marquette. So much so that his brother came. Wojo was by Joey's side during his surgery. Sam's numbers went up versus his sophomore year. He is a team captain and co MVP. Joey was averaging 29 minutes a game and nearly 10 points as a freshman. MU was 23-4 and in the top 10. And the Hausers decide to leave. But they'll stay if Markus goes. And they leave and everyone else chooses to stay.
Best of luck in your future endeavors.
Did the Hausers or Wojo or anyone associated with the Marquette program actually say on the record that the Hausers would stay if Markus left? This is being stated as a fact. Was it said by anyone?
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Did the Hausers or Wojo or anyone associated with the Marquette program actually say on the record that the Hausers would stay if Markus left? This is being stated as a fact. Was it said by anyone?
Publicly on record? I don't think so.
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Publicly on record? I don't think so.
Thank you, I didn’t think so. For all anyone knows, the Hausers might’ve left even if Markus had gone pro. Or if all three had stayed, we likely would’ve had other transfers. No way to know. It’s just tiresome to see speculation and rumor stated as fact to help support a given narrative.
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It’s just tiresome to see speculation and rumor stated as fact to help support a given narrative.
I see you're new around here.
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No way to know. It’s just tiresome to see speculation and rumor stated as fact to help support a given narrative.
You can choose who you do and don't trust, but there are people on here that share information as they are able and are actually getting information that's close to the source. There are always things said off the record & always parts of the story that are left out. That doesn't make the statements inaccurate.
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Major programs do not lose a three year starter. I’d imagine when this does happen (lose a starter) it is a situation where a major upgrade in talent is coming which will impact mins (ala Shayok even though I think he was the sixth man). This wasn’t normal and isn’t akin to 80% of programs having transfers.
Now the debating whether the situation was unsalvageable and Wojo playing it properly seems fair. However he is accountable as the head of the program regardless of opinion.
By the way. If Sam was such a jerk why did Wojo give him co-MVP. Seems like a bad move if the new narrative is true (Hausers as villains).
Maybe he was trying to hold the roster together with that MVP, or more importantly because the kid deserved it.
Wanting to leave doesn’t make someone a jerk, either. I’ve seen very few people here claim Sam fits that description. He wanted a change, he made it. I’m cheering for those that want to be at MU.
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Did the Hausers or Wojo or anyone associated with the Marquette program actually say on the record that the Hausers would stay if Markus left? This is being stated as a fact. Was it said by anyone?
That’s interesting, you and others are buying into other “theories” here that were not publicly stated by program, player or coach....why the double standard RR?
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The Co-MVP award certainly seems to lend credibility to the argument that Sam was a non-issue
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Thank you, I didn’t think so. For all anyone knows, the Hausers might’ve left even if Markus had gone pro. Or if all three had stayed, we likely would’ve had other transfers. No way to know. It’s just tiresome to see speculation and rumor stated as fact to help support a given narrative.
But to pursue the other narrative, that it is Wojos fault, also relies on speculation and rumor.
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But to pursue the other narrative, that it is Wojos fault, also relies on speculation and rumor.
My speculation and rumor is better than your speculation and rumor.
Duh.
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Exactly.
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Talked to friend on Friday night,he talked to Family member,simply said in the families mind the inability of Wojo to reel in Howard 's play,was the reason they left
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So, all about the touches. And unable to co-exist with Markus.
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So, all about the touches. And unable to co-exist with Markus. lack of trust the coach knows what he’s doing
Tomayto tomahto
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Back to your rumor, speculation, and opinion against my rumor, speculation, and opinion.
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You cant get any more closer to source then he did,and it wasn't the kids
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Tomayto tomahto
But would’ve trusted the coach knew what he was doing had the All American left. Which ruins your theory.
What also ruins your theory is Sam had 2 years in the program and lacked so much trust in a coach being able to do his job well that his younger brother joined him to play for that coach.
The math doesn’t add up.
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But would’ve trusted the coach knew what he was doing had the All American left. Which ruins your theory.
What also ruins your theory is Sam had 2 years in the program and lacked so much trust in a coach being able to do his job well that his younger brother joined him to play for that coach.
The math doesn’t add up.
Doesn’t ruin anything. Markus leaving would’ve taken the situation Wojo couldn’t correct, (the one they didn’t trust him to correct) out of Wojo’s hands. Then Sam would’ve held his nose and played his final season for a coach he’s clearly not a huge fan of. It’s not like transferring to sit one/play one was some amazing option
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Doesn’t ruin anything. Markus leaving would’ve taken the situation Wojo couldn’t correct, (the one they didn’t trust him to correct) out of Wojo’s hands.
So they trust Wojo...when they’re the best players.
Makes sense.
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So they trust Wojo...when they’re the best players.
Makes sense.
Your comprehension is lacking
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Maybe he was trying to hold the roster together with that MVP, or more importantly because the kid deserved it.
Wanting to leave doesn’t make someone a jerk, either. I’ve seen very few people here claim Sam fits that description. He wanted a change, he made it. I’m cheering for those that want to be at MU.
I don't disagree with what you are saying. I was responding to the emerging "Villain Hauser" narrative, which I disagree with.
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Just wondering IF they had not gotten blown out in the NCAA tourney game, and had they actually won it and another game or two, if things would have been better?? No way of knowing, but if they were unhappy prior to that which it seems they were, getting blasted in the NCAA's I'm sure did not help matters. Maybe they would have left even if they had won a tourney game or two, but after the late season failings, coupled with the blowout NCAA tourney loss, had to have been the final nail. Hard to say if winning a game or two in the tourney would have made a difference or not.
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Talked to friend on Friday night,he talked to Family member,simply said in the families mind the inability of Wojo to reel in Howard 's play,was the reason they left
maybe wojo didn't want to reel in MH. maybe it was wojo's way of saying we're doing just fine with they way MH is playing mr, howsa, thanks for playing now take your seat and go back to whatcha know. i'm the coach. we were doing pretty good before that "skid". didn't appear as though sam and joey weren't getting touches. sam's numbers were up from previous year and joey got the benefit of the doubt...A LOT
if mr. howsa was honest about the situation, he should have told wojo to stop playing his son so much and treat him like he would any other freshman. pull him after some mistakes and use that as a teaching moment. i didn't hear too many nba teams talking about joey right out of hs. in other words, he needed college to hone his game...A LOT. now joey might develop into a very fine player, but he has some work to do. that's to be expected, but he was acting like a prima donna and that bothered me a little
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So, all about the touches. And unable to co-exist with Markus Wojo.
FTFY
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Dammit. Rocket agrees with me. Now I have to rethink everything.
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Everyone hating on Sam...smh Yet, this is the same kid that AFTER he committed to Virginia, changed his twitter picture back to one of him in an MU uniform. Does that sound like someone that's a bad kid?? Has anyone here ever quit a job for another opportunity?? Were you deemed a "quitter" by your former co workers?? Or were they thnakful of what you contributed over the years and realized that you wanted a better opportunity??
I left a job after 21 years, to take an opportunity I thought was better for me and would make me happier because the last 5 years or so at the 21 year job, things had changed to the point where I wasn't happy anymore..I was the last person people there thought would be unhappy...I had security, a great position in the company and everyone respected me. No one called me a "quitter".
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Dammit. Rocket agrees with me. Now I have to rethink everything.
i knew something was weird when i saw them pigs(with lip stick) flyin off my backyard 8-)
in all seriousness, am i happy with the way chit has gone down? f-no. purely from a coach's standpoint, wojo's only real alternative here was to wish the boys well and don't let the door hit...what was he supposed to do? plead with the hauser's and promise he'll do better? this is a "stepping thru the threshold moment for wojo. let's give him this year. he may finally have his team sans a few parents sitting behind him who forgot to bring their tic-tacs. as a team, either you're with your coach or not.
ok, another can't prove this moment, but ya can't tell me he and coach shashefski weren't pretty close during this period and there are not many other b-ball minds i would want in my fox hole when the bullets are flying
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More agreeing! Nobody is happy with how it went down. And the coach is the coach. And when confronted by players who are no longer buying in to what you are doing...
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Your comprehension is lacking
Your ability to convey is lacking
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Everyone hating on Sam...smh Yet, this is the same kid that AFTER he committed to Virginia, changed his twitter picture back to one of him in an MU uniform. Does that sound like someone that's a bad kid?? Has anyone here ever quit a job for another opportunity?? Were you deemed a "quitter" by your former co workers?? Or were they thnakful of what you contributed over the years and realized that you wanted a better opportunity??
I left a job after 21 years, to take an opportunity I thought was better for me and would make me happier because the last 5 years or so at the 21 year job, things had changed to the point where I wasn't happy anymore..I was the last person people there thought would be unhappy...I had security, a great position in the company and everyone respected me. No one called me a "quitter".
After 21 years someone leaving isn’t going to be called a quitter.
You said EVERYONE is on Sam...bull crap. False. Fake news. I hope Sam does well at UVA and finds happiness.
Everyone is plain false statement by you.
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i knew something was weird when i saw them pigs(with lip stick) flyin off my backyard 8-)
in all seriousness, am i happy with the way chit has gone down? f-no. purely from a coach's standpoint, wojo's only real alternative here was to wish the boys well and don't let the door hit...what was he supposed to do? plead with the hauser's and promise he'll do better? this is a "stepping thru the threshold moment for wojo. let's give him this year. he may finally have his team sans a few parents sitting behind him who forgot to bring their tic-tacs. as a team, either you're with your coach or not.
ok, another can't prove this moment, but ya can't tell me he and coach shashefski weren't pretty close during this period and there are not many other b-ball minds i would want in my fox hole when the bullets are flying
Agree completely
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After 21 years someone leaving isn’t going to be called a quitter.
You said EVERYONE is on Sam...bull crap. False. Fake news. I hope Sam does well at UVA and finds happiness.
Everyone is plain false statement by you.
MOST everyone has either slammed Joey or Sam. That better?? Because you have never given MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY false statements on this board through the years?? You're the king of it. Lenny will back me up on that. You're crafty though, in that when yo uare called out on it, you proclaim something that no one can really verify. But when someone verify it, even though you think they can't, and they call you out on it, you stick to your story that you are right, and no one else could possibly have info to show you aren't. Now THAT is fake news. ;)
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The Co-MVP award certainly seems to lend credibility to the argument that Sam was a non-issue
Wojo could of been trying to appease both parties.
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I really don't think most people have bashed Sam or Joey. Some have. More have bashed Wojo. Most haven't done either.
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Wojo could of been trying to appease both parties.
I suppose. My gut tells me that's not the case.
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MOST everyone has either slammed Joey or Sam. That better?? Because you have never given MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY false statements on this board through the years?? You're the king of it. Lenny will back me up on that. You're crafty though, in that when yo uare called out on it, you proclaim something that no one can really verify. But when someone verify it, even though you think they can't, and they call you out on it, you stick to your story that you are right, and no one else could possibly have info to show you aren't. Now THAT is fake news. ;)
Lenny will back you up on it, while pressuring Sam and saying Fluffy and I are the same, LOL. Well that’s the Good House Keeping seal of approval then.
Look, you said everyone, which was false. Don’t get all pissy because you were calls on it. How many of you out 99% or 100% of it on the coach? Most reasonable people here have said there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Lenny will back you up on it, while pressuring Sam and saying Fluffy and I are the same, LOL. Well that’s the Good House Keeping seal of approval then.
Look, you said everyone, which was false. Don’t get all pissy because you were calls on it. How many of you out 99% or 100% of it on the coach? Most reasonable people here have said there is plenty of blame to go around.
You blame Buzz as your way of "justifying" Wojo's results to this point. 6 years ago. No longer relevant. Don't get all pissy and try to spin when you get called out on it. Your problem is, you talk so tough all the time. "There's so much dirt on buzz, and someday I will tell the board everything". You have been called out on that numerous times, and there's been *crickets* on that every single time. You state emphatically 100% that there was a rape, and when you have been called out on that(from people that have MUCH MUCH better info then yo uwish you ever had), have stated differently, you still stick to our story like you were there.
The thing is, you have NO info, at least not credible info...your like the Ericthred of the scoop board. Claiming you have all this info and saying "this is exactly what happened" only to find out that's not what actually happened. But both of you insist it's the way I say it is in regards to this. The difference is, he has people at Buckyville that actually believe he has good info, and has developed a weird cult following, I'm pretty sure you don't have that same following here. But whatever helps you sleep better at night.
I will henceforth be referring to you as Chicosthered in any conversation we have moving forward. The more i think about it, the more I realize the similarities between you two are striking. Both egotistical and arrogant as anyone could possibly be. Congratulations, you're in great company.
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Tomayto tomahto
So Sam spent two seasons at MU, encouraged his brother to join the team (a half season early, in fact) and then, and only then, determined Wojo was an incompetent coach he couldn't trust?
Is Sam a very slow learner? If not, your speculation doesn't add up.
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You blame Buzz as your way of "justifying" Wojo's results to this point. 6 years ago. No longer relevant. Don't get all pissy and try to spin when you get called out on it. Your problem is, you talk so tough all the time. "There's so much dirt on buzz, and someday I will tell the board everything". You have been called out on that numerous times, and there's been *crickets* on that every single time. You state emphatically 100% that there was a rape, and when you have been called out on that(from people that have MUCH MUCH better info then yo uwish you ever had), have stated differently, you still stick to our story like you were there.
The thing is, you have NO info, at least not credible info...your like the Ericthred of the scoop board. Claiming you have all this info and saying "this is exactly what happened" only to find out that's not what actually happened. But both of you insist it's the way I say it is in regards to this. The difference is, he has people at Buckyville that actually believe he has good info, and has developed a weird cult following, I'm pretty sure you don't have that same following here. But whatever helps you sleep better at night.
I will henceforth be referring to you as Chicosthered in any conversation we have moving forward. The more i think about it, the more I realize the similarities between you two are striking. Both egotistical and arrogant as anyone could possibly be. Congratulations, you're in great company.
LOL. Bring it. I remember back one of our first exchanges more than 10 years ago where your post about Dwade’s divorce was so disgusting Hilltopper had to edit your post and my response to it because so many of us were disgusted by it.....but sure, you go with your reference.
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So Sam spent two seasons at MU, encouraged his brother to join the team (a half season early, in fact) and then, and only then, determined Wojo was an incompetent coach he couldn't trust?
Is Sam a very slow learner? If not, your speculation doesn't add up.
Not only that, but it would have been OK to keep playing for this incompetent, untrustworthy coach if the All-American had left.
Plenty of "blame" (for lack of better word) to go around.
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The "alternative" is the very one he went with...
The right one.
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Going back to the original topic.
I think it comes down to two possibilities.
1. Wojo did not realize that the rift between Sam and Markus was that bad and I could see people being upset with Wojo for not realizing that.
or
2. Wojo knew it was that bad, but expected Howard to go pro. Wojo said he encourage Howard to put his name in the draft to get an evaluation. Had Markus stayed in the draft the problem was solved. Had Markus pulled his name out, Wojo may of had an extra month to calm the Hausers down.
We will never know for sure, but I do believe Wojo was surprised that Markus did not explore the pro option.
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Another thing I've been thinking of is just how good Sam could be in Tony Bennett's system. The pack line doesn't require the same foot-speed as a typical man-to-man. It's more about sticking to your assignments, which Sam is already great at. And he's willing to keep moving the ball until the right look opens up. Joe McCann mentioned on Scrambled Eggs that he thought Sam could be a potential ACC POY at Virginia, and I'm inclined to agree. It isn't just that Virginia's system is perfect for Sam, it's that Sam is perfect for Virginia's system. If anywhere could turn him into a conference POY, All-American, & best highlight the attributes he has that could get him drafted, Virginia is it.
Good call, BTW.
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brewcity
That is why you need a system. You recruit players that fit system. That is what Wojo has been lacking to install at MU, a true system. I agree, Sam is a perfect fit at VA..
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brewcity
That is why you need a system. You recruit players that fit system. That is what Wojo has been lacking to install at MU, a true system. I agree, Sam is a perfect fit at VA..
It seems to me that Wojo's system is for the guards to shoot. He seems to like three guard offenses and he wants all of them to have point guard skills. Defensively, I know he prefers man to man, but I am not sure what his system is for defense.
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brewcity
That is why you need a system. You recruit players that fit system. That is what Wojo has been lacking to install at MU, a true system. I agree, Sam is a perfect fit at VA..
Goose, I agree to an extent. However, what do you do when a certain recruiting pool is heavier one year on the type of players that don’t fit your system?
Was Keven O’Neill’s defensive system based on the perimeter overplaying and funneling guys to the shot-blocking wizard Jimmy Mac? Of course. But, how many lockdown guys like Tony Miller and Roney Eford are in a given recruiting pool?.....let alone an ultra-elite shot swatter like McIlvaine?
Coaches adapt to what’s available to recruit. Once the sharks... a la the Arizona’s, UK’s, UNC’s, Dukes, KU’s have swum a few $ laps $ in the recruiting pool...do the rest of the D1 coaches have a bunch of custom-fit recruits available to plug into a rigid system?
As has been said here before, I feel you go after the best available guys and work them into fitting your system based upon maximizing their strengths.
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I think it's funny that some fans (Tower for example) say that Wojo is too married to one system and other fans (Goose for example) say Wojo doesn't have a system.
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I think it's funny that some fans (Tower for example) say that Wojo is too married to one system and other fans (Goose for example) say Wojo doesn't have a system.
Winning cures a lot huh?
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He seems to like three guard offenses and he wants all of them to have point guard skills.
Howard does not have “point guard skills.”
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Howard does not have “point guard skills.”
Top 5 candidates listed for the 2020 Cousy Award
Cassius Winston: 44.8 assist rate/17.5 Turnover rate
Markus Howard: 27.2 assist rate/18.4 turnover rate
Tre Jones: 24 assist rate/14.7 turnover rate
Ashton Hagans: 27 assist rate/28.4 turnover rate
Anthony Cowan: 26.1 assist rate/18.6 turnover rate
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Top 5 candidates listed for the 2020 Cousy Award
Cassius Winston: 44.8 assist rate/17.5 Turnover rate
Markus Howard: 27.2 assist rate/18.4 turnover rate
Tre Jones: 24 assist rate/14.7 turnover rate
Ashton Hagans: 27 assist rate/28.4 turnover rate
Anthony Cowan: 26.1 assist rate/18.6 turnover rate
Interesting stuff, U.R. Thanks for posting.
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Going back to the original topic.
I think it comes down to two possibilities.
1. Wojo did not realize that the rift between Sam and Markus was that bad and I could see people being upset with Wojo for not realizing that.
or
2. Wojo knew it was that bad, but expected Howard to go pro. Wojo said he encourage Howard to put his name in the draft to get an evaluation. Had Markus stayed in the draft the problem was solved. Had Markus pulled his name out, Wojo may of had an extra month to calm the Hausers down.
We will never know for sure, but I do believe Wojo was surprised that Markus did not explore the pro option.
In either case, Wojo F..ed up.
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The alternative was to not lose 6 out of 7 last games.
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Talked to friend on Friday night,he talked to Family member,simply said in the families mind the inability of Wojo to reel in Howard 's play,was the reason they left
So, all about playing for a coach who demands team play and doesn't allow hero ball.
They'll almost assuredly get less touches/usage at UVA and MSU but basketball will be fun again to them, anyway.
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So, all about playing for a coach who demands team play and doesn't allow hero ball.
They'll almost assuredly get less touches/usage at UVA and MSU but basketball will be fun again to them, anyway.
Or so says the friend of a family member.
Interesting that each of us chooses to believe "sources" that align with what we want to be true. I do it, too, Lenny, so I'm not casting stones at you.
In the case of Hausershima, I'm playing it down the middle and saying nobody comes out of this with totally "clean" hands. Lots of good "evidence" on both sides IMHO.
We're gonna have to wait a year and a half to see if basketball is fun for them in their new digs. I hope it is. We all should get to do what we want where we want. Hell, I wish they didn't have to sit out a year, just as I wish Morrow and Koby didn't have to sit out a year.
We are Marquette.
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They'll almost assuredly get less touches/usage at UVA and MSU but basketball will be fun again to them, anyway.
Do you really think so? Three Virginia starters had higher usage than Sam last year (Hunter, Jerome, Guy). So if Sam's usage there is even lower, he's the 4th/5th option then?
That won't help his ACC POY campaign
Joeys usage last year would have placed him 5th among Sparty's regulars. Even lower, you think?
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So, all about playing for a coach who demands team play and doesn't allow hero ball.
They'll almost assuredly get less touches/usage at UVA and MSU but basketball will be fun again to them, anyway.
Lenny the fortune teller.
Basketball was so little fun in this system that Sam got his younger brother to come play in it. Wild.
I couldn’t fathom playing where an All American shot the ball a lot either.
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The alternative was to not lose 6 out of 7 last games.
So had MU won 6 of the last 7, in the same way MU won the large majority of their early victories (Markus shooting a ton), then the Hausers would still be here?
That would fly in the face of the rumors that the Hausers wanted to continue to play with Markus or that they lost trust in wojo.
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When we were winning, they could live with it and it was tolerated. When we lost, it was the crutch to blame the losses on the style and cut lose. That's what a friend not from their family told me. 8-)
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Going back to the original topic.
I think it comes down to two possibilities.
1. Wojo did not realize that the rift between Sam and Markus was that bad and I could see people being upset with Wojo for not realizing that.
or
2. Wojo knew it was that bad, but expected Howard to go pro. Wojo said he encourage Howard to put his name in the draft to get an evaluation. Had Markus stayed in the draft the problem was solved. Had Markus pulled his name out, Wojo may of had an extra month to calm the Hausers down.
We will never know for sure, but I do believe Wojo was surprised that Markus did not explore the pro option.
If either or both of these is true, Woj's is a bigger idiot than perceived, hey?
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If either or both of these is true, Woj's is a bigger idiot than perceived, hey?
He's perceived as an idiot? I don't think he's an idiot. Do you?
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Do you really think so? Three Virginia starters had higher usage than Sam last year (Hunter, Jerome, Guy). So if Sam's usage there is even lower, he's the 4th/5th option then?
That won't help his ACC POY campaign
Joeys usage last year would have placed him 5th among Sparty's regulars. Even lower, you think?
Fair point re usage. We were lopsided (Markus 37.4, Sam 20.2, Joey 17.6, Sacar 15.5) and UVA was balanced (Hunter 24.1, Jerome 23.4, Guy 22.7, Diakite 19.7). Going to a team like UVA (or any team that shares the ball), Sam's usage probably goes up a tick or two, while his shots per game and per 40 minutes likely dips a little (Sam would have led UVA in both last year).
Bottom line for Sam - a few more touches, a few less shots - assuming his profile is similar to 1st team AA Hunter or Guy. He went somewhere where there's more balance, more sharing, more team - not (IMO) for a few more touches (% wise) or a few less shots.
As I've said many times before, one of Wojo's rights/responsibilities is to dictate style of play. Bennett's too. Assuming that a guy would choose/prefer TB's over Wojo's because he's selfish, though, makes zero sense to me.
I'll look at the numbers re Joey when I get a chance - maybe they'll tell a different story.
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Fair point re usage. We were lopsided (Markus 37.4, Sam 20.2, Joey 17.6, Sacar 15.5) and UVA was balanced (Hunter 24.1, Jerome 23.4, Guy 22.7, Diakite 19.7). Going to a team like UVA (or any team that shares the ball), Sam's usage probably goes up a tick or two, while his shots per game and per 40 minutes likely dips a little (Sam would have led UVA in both last year).
Bottom line for Sam - a few more touches, a few less shots - assuming his profile is similar to 1st team AA Hunter or Guy. He went somewhere where there's more balance, more sharing, more team - not (IMO) for a few more touches (% wise) or a few less shots.
As I've said many times before, one of Wojo's rights/responsibilities is to dictate style of play. Bennett's too. Assuming that a guy would choose/prefer TB's over Wojo's because he's selfish, though, makes zero sense to me.
I'll look at the numbers re Joey when I get a chance - maybe they'll tell a different story.
Depends who you talk to. According to people with sources "as close to the Hausers as you can possibly get" Sam was "very pissed" after the Buffalo game. For a guy who those same people claim is just someone who doesn't care about touches, just wants to win, and stopped having fun when the winning stopped, it's kind of odd he'd be pissed when his teammate put the entire team on his back and put up 40 points in a half to lead his team to a(nother) top 15 win. I would bet my life that I will never see a Marquette team lose a game where a single one of their players scores 40 points in a single half by himself. Yet the guy who isn't selfish, doesn't care about touches, and just wants to win was "pissed" after Markus single handedly took Marquette from a one point halftime lead to a route of top 15 Buffalo.
Odd.
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Suggestion:
1) The Brothers Hauser are gone. Finito at Marquette. Get over it.
2) While we can blame all we want and we all have our perspective, it's time to move on. I have strong opinions about who is to blame but casting blame does nothing to cheer the team on as it recovers from the Brothers Hauser defection. If someone does not want to be a Warrior, I don't want 'em.
3) For those of you who think high major players don't transfer, I have two words for you: Q-u-e-n-t-i-n G-r-i-m-e-s. Probably has less of an effect on Kansas than the Hauser transfer does on us but it underscores that free agency in college basketball is a fact of life. Unfortunately.
4) Does Wojo have Mr. Grimes on speed dial. He'd be a nice addition!
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brewcity
That is why you need a system. You recruit players that fit system. That is what Wojo has been lacking to install at MU, a true system. I agree, Sam is a perfect fit at VA..
I think Wojo's system has evolved. Initially, his plan was to maximize shooters and beat teams at the arc. Carlino, Rowsey, Howard, Sam, etc. But that led to defensive mismatches, so we've seen more length and wing athleticism added (Cain, Elliott, McEwen, Akanno, Torrence).
After being beat up down low the first couple years, he's also moved away from finesse inside players (Luke, Matt, Katin) in favor of bigger, stronger enforcer types like Theo, Ed, & Jayce.
Bennett definitely has a more established, clear system than Wojo, but I do think we're closer to seeing an established system. This is one of the drawbacks to hiring a first time head coach.
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If someone does not want to be a Warrior, I don't want 'em.
Yep yep yep.
We are Marquette!
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Depends who you talk to. According to people with sources "as close to the Hausers as you can possibly get" Sam was "very pissed" after the Buffalo game. For a guy who those same people claim is just someone who doesn't care about touches, just wants to win, and stopped having fun when the winning stopped, it's kind of odd he'd be pissed when his teammate put the entire team on his back and put up 40 points in a half to lead his team to a(nother) top 15 win. I would bet my life that I will never see a Marquette team lose a game where a single one of their players scores 40 points in a single half by himself. Yet the guy who isn't selfish, doesn't care about touches, and just wants to win was "pissed" after Markus single handedly took Marquette from a one point halftime lead to a route of top 15 Buffalo.
Odd.
So many "sources close to the Hausers" have been so wrong/contrdictory throughout this entire saga that I dismiss yours (and everyone else's) out of hand. I look only at facts. All we know for sure is that Sam and Joey were unhappy - unhappy enough to leave. The anti Hausers here think Sam left for the increased touches/shots he'll get with Tony Bennett. Joey left because he was a baby who couldn't handle criticism and went to play for Tom Izzo. For me, where they landed blows up both anti Hauser theories. So I looked for logical ones elsewhere.
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So many "sources close to the Hausers" have been so wrong/contrdictory throughout this entire saga that I dismiss yours (and everyone else's) out of hand. I look only at facts. All we know for sure is that Sam and Joey were unhappy - unhappy enough to leave. The anti Hausers here think Sam left for the increased touches/shots he'll get with Tony Bennett. Joey left because he was a baby who couldn't handle criticism and went to play for Tom Izzo. For me, where they landed blows up both anti Hauser theories. So I looked for logical ones elsewhere.
What about those of us who are neither anti-Hauser nor anti-Wojo?
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So many "sources close to the Hausers" have been so wrong/contrdictory throughout this entire saga that I dismiss yours (and everyone else's) out of hand. I look only at facts. All we know for sure is that Sam and Joey were unhappy - unhappy enough to leave. The anti Hausers here think Sam left for the increased touches/shots he'll get with Tony Bennett. Joey left because he was a baby who couldn't handle criticism and went to play for Tom Izzo. For me, where they landed blows up both anti Hauser theories. So I looked for logical ones elsewhere.
I haven’t shared a single word from my “sources.” These stories are from the “anti Wojo” sources. Sam loved winning so much that he wrote a petition behind the team’s best player’s back while the team sat at 23-5 trying to get Wojo to change the offense, not so he and baby bro could get more touches, but so Ed, Theo, Brendan, Sacar, Jamal, Heldt, and Touney got their fair shake at touching the basketball. And the final straw was an Instagram post, not by Wojo but by Markus.
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What about those of us who are neither anti-Hauser nor anti-Wojo?
Those of us who are neither anti-Wojo or anti-Hauser will agree that a) it's Wojo's team and he can have them play any style he chooses - he'a the boss - and b) any player who is unhappy playing that style who can find one more to his liking should move on without being characterized in a negative manner (quitter, selfish, baby, whiner, pouter, mutineer, etc.).
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Sam and Markus came in together and were teammates for three years together....correct?
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I haven’t shared a single word from my “sources.” These stories are from the “anti Wojo” sources. Sam loved winning so much that he wrote a petition behind the team’s best player’s back while the team sat at 23-5 trying to get Wojo to change the offense, not so he and baby bro could get more touches, but so Ed, Theo, Brendan, Sacar, Jamal, Heldt, and Touney got their fair shake at touching the basketball. And the final straw was an Instagram post, not by Wojo but by Markus.
Does anyone have a copy of that said Instagram ??
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Pretty sure it was the one where he announced he was returning.
https://twitter.com/markushoward11/status/1116733521777840128
Supposedly, because it was all about him, this just deepened the rift. 72 hours later.....
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Bottom line for Sam - a few more touches, a few less shots - assuming his profile is similar to 1st team AA Hunter or Guy. He went somewhere where there's more balance, more sharing, more team - not (IMO) for a few more touches (% wise) or a few less shots.
PotAYto, potAHto.
What you euphemistically label "more sharing" because it fits your narrative, anyone more objective would call more touches and more shots. The end result is the exact same ... as your argument that the Hausers will see less usage ay UVa and MSU is almost certainly wrong, unless you see them fitting into even lesser roles there than they had at MU.
As I've said a million times, I won't criticize the Hausers for leaving because they wanted more shots. That's their call to make.
Why do you insist on creating other motivations for them? Would that, in your mind, contradict the narrative that they're good, team-first kids?
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PotAYto, potAHto.
What you euphemistically label "more sharing" because it fits your narrative, anyone more objective would call more touches and more shots. The end result is the exact same ... as your argument that the Hausers will see less usage ay UVa and MSU is almost certainly wrong, unless you see them fitting into even lesser roles there than they had at MU.
As I've said a million times, I won't criticize the Hausers for leaving because they wanted more shots. That's their call to make.
Why do you insist on creating other motivations for them? Would that, in your mind, contradict the narrative that they're good, team-first kids?
More usage - I'll concede. But why do you project Sam will get more shots? This year nobody on UVA shot the ball the ball as much per game as Sam did.
Now there are plenty of places Sam could have gone if more shots was the goal/reason for leaving. UVA in that scenario was a bad choice, so I don't see that as the motivation.
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Those of us who are neither anti-Wojo or anti-Hauser will agree that a) it's Wojo's team and he can have them play any style he chooses - he'a the boss - and b) any player who is unhappy playing that style who can find one more to his liking should move on without being characterized in a negative manner (quitter, selfish, baby, whiner, pouter, mutineer, etc.).
Lenny, I don't know if Sam and/or Joey were selfish, babies, whiners, pouters, etc, so I think I have refrained from calling them that. They did both quit. I stopped using the term "quitter" because it offended Scoopers I respect, but the fact is that they did both quit Marquette.
That they went behind the team captain's back with that letter, even as the team was 23-5 (including 20-3 in their last 23 games) and ranked No. 10 in the nation, does indicate something more was going on besides wanting to win. They were winning.
I can see how some of our fellow Scoopers could say that the letter-writing campaign undermined both team unity and the coach's authority, and the situation contributed to the season going down the toilet after that. I can't conclude that with any certainty, however, just as I don't see how you or anybody else could conclude with certainty that the Hausers were totally unselfish and blameless.
In the end, the Hausers left and, despite rumors to the contrary, everybody else stayed to keep working with Markus and Wojo. That does not mean the other players disliked the Hausers and/or that they love Markus and Wojo, but it is at least a little telling to me. I am glad they stayed to honor their commitment and to help our Warriors have what we all hope will be a great 2019-20 season.
Only speaking for myself (though others have expressed similar sentiment), I admit that the Hausers choosing to go to schools other than F%ckyland softens any negative feelings I might have had about them.
Looking ahead, they simply do not matter to me. The situation that happened here in March/April/May was an interesting one and I will discuss it with you and others if moved to do so, but I don't "care" about the Hausers any more because they are not Warriors. I don't wish bad things upon them, but they mean no more to me now than any other Michigan State or Virginia player does.
I care about players and coaches who want to be Warriors. We are Marquette!
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That they went behind the team captain's back with that letter, even as the team was 23-5 (including 20-3 in their last 23 games) and ranked No. 10 in the nation, does indicate something more was going on besides wanting to win. They were winning.
I can see how some of our fellow Scoopers could say that the letter-writing campaign undermined both team unity and the coach's authority, and the situation contributed to the season going down the toilet after that. I can't conclude that with any certainty, however, just as I don't see how you or anybody else could conclude with certainty that the Hausers were totally unselfish and blameless.
Agree with much of what you said but doesn't this assume an awful lot not in evidence? Went behind the captains back? Wrote the letter when the team was 23-5? I don't even know IF there was a letter, let alone what was in it, whether it summarized issues already discussed or when it was written. As I said, I've heard a lot about it - but most of what I've heard on this issue has been proven false. I won't comment on a (possible) letter until I've seen what's in it.
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Agree with much of what you said but doesn't this assume an awful lot not in evidence? Went behind the captains back? Wrote the letter when the team was 23-5? I don't even know IF there was a letter, let alone what was in it, whether it summarized issues already discussed or when it was written. As I said, I've heard a lot about it - but most of what I've heard on this issue has been proven false. I won't comment on a (possible) letter until I've seen what's in it.
Agree on tge whole “letter” thing, so much of what comes out of these things is completely false. Just look at the “silent verbal” to wisconsin, i put as much stock in that as i do in the “letter”. As far as im concerned neither happened. And it doesnt stand to reason, wtf on an athletic team writes a letter? Doesnt make any sense to me. If they did do that I would have liked to seen Wojo kick them off the team.
Im so over it tho. The Hausers leaving posts are pathetic, do all u guys participating in them still have pictures of ur old girlfriends on ur bathroom mirrors? Let it go, its pathetic that this board is still dominated by guys crying n debating about the Hausers leaving.
Lastly, fvck the entire Hauser family. Quitters n bi+ches is their legacy to me.
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I haven’t shared a single word from my “sources.” These stories are from the “anti Wojo” sources. Sam loved winning so much that he wrote a petition behind the team’s best player’s back while the team sat at 23-5 trying to get Wojo to change the offense, not so he and baby bro could get more touches, but so Ed, Theo, Brendan, Sacar, Jamal, Heldt, and Touney got their fair shake at touching the basketball. And the final straw was an Instagram post, not by Wojo but by Markus.
Not sure if this was supposed to be teal, but, if not, that sounds a lot like “everybody gets a trophy” type thinking. Most good athletes and competitors care about the WIN first and NOT about statistics. I find it hard to believe Sam is in that latter. But...if that’s what your “sources you haven’t shared a single word from” tell you, then I guess it’s accurate ::)
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Not sure if this was supposed to be teal, but, if not, that sounds a lot like “everybody gets a trophy” type thinking. Most good athletes and competitors care about the WIN first and NOT about statistics. I find it hard to believe Sam is in that latter. But...if that’s what your “sources you haven’t shared a single word from” tell you, then I guess it’s accurate ::)
As Wades explained, that story is not what he heard from whoever his sources are. He is quoting other posters who have claimed on this board that this story is true. I think he would agree with you on the story's believability.
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As Wades explained, that story is not what he heard from whoever his sources are. He is quoting other posters who have claimed on this board that this story is true. I think he would agree with you on the story's believability.
Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding-thank you! 8-)
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As Wades explained, that story is not what he heard from whoever his sources are. He is quoting other posters who have claimed on this board that this story is true. I think he would agree with you on the story's believability.
I guess I was honing in on the criticism thrown out there re: “ sources”. I realize everyone wants to be “ the man” and know “ someone” or “something” before anyone else. But I know my source was solid. I will, one day soon, find out exactly what happened or what went on behind the scenes and NOT share it with you guys :P. My thoughts are that originally they were going to udub but underestimated the blow back and...?? Oh well.
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I guess I was honing in on the criticism thrown out there re: “ sources”. I realize everyone wants to be “ the man” and know “ someone” or “something” before anyone else. But I know my source was solid. I will, one day soon, find out exactly what happened or what went on behind the scenes and NOT share it with you guys :P. My thoughts are that originally they were going to udub but underestimated the blow back and...?? Oh well.
I know what happened. Either your source was wrong or you misinterpreted what you source said. Those are the only two options. It's not a bad thing, it happens all the time.
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I know what happened. Either your source was wrong or you misinterpreted what you source said. Those are the only two options. It's not a bad thing, it happens all the time.
Nope, sorry, no disrespect but maybe when I find out fer sure, I will pm you 👍
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Nope, sorry, no disrespect but maybe when I find out fer sure, I will pm you 👍
There's no nope about it. You said they were going to Wisconsin. They didn't. You either got bad information or misunderstood the information. I don't mean any disrespect by it either, there's nothing bad about being mistaken on the internet. Hell, I said the Hauser/Howard tension was "making a mountain out of a molehill" the day before the Hausers transferred. Just because a source says something doesn't make it true.
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Agree with much of what you said but doesn't this assume an awful lot not in evidence? Went behind the captains back? Wrote the letter when the team was 23-5? I don't even know IF there was a letter, let alone what was in it, whether it summarized issues already discussed or when it was written. As I said, I've heard a lot about it - but most of what I've heard on this issue has been proven false. I won't comment on a (possible) letter until I've seen what's in it.
Reasonable take. I thought it was already established that The Letter was a real thing. Maybe it was one of those deals where I read about it so much I assumed it was true.
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Wojo's alternative was to hire a guy like Phil Martelli like Howard did. Suspect everyone would have been a lot better off.
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Either your source was wrong or you misinterpreted what you source said.
I think there's a lot of that going on here, except with other people's sources. It sounds like people are restructuring the order of events in a way that reflects negatively on the Hausers.
I've heard two versions of events, both of which I believe have some elements of truth. There's two sides to the story. The first set of events came from the Hauser side, the more recent came from the Marquette side.
Neither side indicated the letter was written at 23-5. It may not change anyone's opinion, but everyone I heard that from said the letter came at 23-8 after we lost 4 straight but before the Big East Tournament.
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I think there's a lot of that going on here, except with other people's sources. It sounds like people are restructuring the order of events in a way that reflects negatively on the Hausers.
I've heard two versions of events, both of which I believe have some elements of truth. There's two sides to the story. The first set of events came from the Hauser side, the more recent came from the Marquette side.
Neither side indicated the letter was written at 23-5. It may not change anyone's opinion, but everyone I heard that from said the letter came at 23-8 after we lost 4 straight but before the Big East Tournament.
I don't know about any of this, I was simply pointing out the obvious that the Hausers didn't end up in Madison.
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I've heard two versions of events, both of which I believe have some elements of truth. There's two sides to the story.
To me, this is the crux of everything. Too many folks want to assess "blame," and then only to their preferred antagonist(s).
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My theory is they didn’t think Wojo was coaching them well enough/wasn’t a good enough coach. They ended up with two of the best coaches in CBB. Also speaks volumes about why they didn’t go to WI.
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My theory is they didn’t think Wojo was coaching them well enough/wasn’t a good enough coach. They ended up with two of the best coaches in CBB. Also speaks volumes about why they didn’t go to WI.
My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
Or maybe he saw the same thing as you and simply wasn't as concerned because it was working.
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
Great post.
Speaking of film, is he done watching all our games from last year or is hot yoga taking up too much time?
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
No mention of Joey hitting a wall once February came and having two fouls before the second media timeout in nearly every game? No mention of Sam passing up open looks and instead dribbling sideways because he could never blow by a guy? No mention of Sacar Anim being dynamite in a game and then disappearing for three games? No mention of Markus being injured in March?
Did your "All 22" view miss a few things?
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
The one in which the guy sitting in the corner seats is sure he understands what's happening on the court better than the coaching staff with 100+ years of professional experience.
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Great post.
Speaking of film, is he done watching all our games from last year or is hot yoga taking up too much time?
The cancer that made All American.....
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
Based on discussions on here by posters that "think they see something", more often than not, they are unaware of the speed, and complexities of the current college game. Times they think a person is open they are not, and the defense is actually sitting on and baiting the pass the viewer thinks is open.
A typical example is on the double team following a pick and roll. Often times it looked like Sam/Joey was wide open. But there was a defender close enough to intercept the only possible pass. It is open if you can get a quick pass there, but that option isn't available, as the big doubling in the middle is sitting on the over the top pass. The only way to get it through is to throw a high arcing pass over the top. If you do that, the help defender likely can get the steal (worst case), or best case, Sam/Joey is guarded tight on the catch.
Watch how Steph throws that pass, typically, very high and arcing, and only when the help defender is out of position. Or much later on the drive, when a player is cutting hard down the lane (Sam and Joey didn't cut hard down the lane). Both are easier to do in the NBA, because the spacing is much better because of an NBA 3-pt line.
That doesn't mean he doesn't miss some open passes, he does, but so does everyone else on the team.
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No mention of Joey hitting a wall once February came and having two fouls before the second media timeout in nearly every game? No mention of Sam passing up open looks and instead dribbling sideways because he could never blow by a guy? No mention of Sacar Anim being dynamite in a game and then disappearing for three games? No mention of Markus being injured in March?
Did your "All 22" view miss a few things?
Are you suggesting that "The Lens" might be a little out of focus?
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I for one would rather have Markus not making the pass and putting up a shot than I would have Joey making the lazy pass right to the defender for a breakaway dunk.
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Great post.
Speaking of film, is he done watching all our games from last year or is hot yoga taking up too much time?
Workin' on dat knew power point, hey?
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My seats are in the corners and give me an "All 22" type view. I can see a lot that develops and stuff that should develop. Early on I started to see the 1 on 1 from Markus, while teammates were left open on the wing. I texted friends after K State and Bucky and said we have issues. I've long said it isn't that Markus refuses to pass, it is that he can't. He doesn't see the floor that well. Sure enough my "All 22" view came to roost. And then they ended up at two of the Top 5 programs in the country. What was Wojo's alternative? Maybe watching more film.
Agreed. The What was Wojo's alternative advocates are pure whiners that do not see that Wojo is in over his head. he never made adjustments and did not get these kids together and on the same page. That is part of his job, and he failed at it. The only way to atone for it as far as the success of the team goes is to bring in equal or better talent to make up for the loss. and he has not done that. And please Wojo excuse makers, do not classify Symir as that talent. He was aleady committed before Hauser gate began.
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The cancer that made All American.....
That’s a perfect description of the 2018-2019 Marquette basketball team.
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I for one would rather have Markus not making the pass and putting up a shot than I would have Joey making the lazy pass right to the defender for a breakaway dunk.
When I used to coach my son's 10U team, my philosophy was that any shot was a good shot because it was better than a turnover. I wouldn't think that would have to apply to college men, but down the stretch we had a few players that applied to. Joey definitely was the biggest offender, but Markus sometimes was, too.
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That’s a perfect description of the 2018-2019 Marquette basketball team.
Cancer is a horrible ravaging disease, friends and family members have died from it. The '18-'19 Marquette basketball team doesn't fit that description at all, let alone perfectly.
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Cancer is a horrible ravaging disease, friends and family members have died from it. The '18-'19 Marquette basketball team doesn't fit that description at all, let alone perfectly.
My uncle thought he was St. Jerome.