MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Cheeks on March 18, 2019, 10:31:01 PM
-
My God people have lost it. Thankfully fans and non fans are calling out each of these idiots on social media. Just amazing and sad.
Just sad. Maybe he has some legal recourse.
-
My God people have lost it. Thankfully fans and non fans are calling out each of these idiots on social media. Just amazing and sad.
Just sad. Maybe he has some legal recourse.
I guess I’m living under a rock...what happened?
-
I was just about to ask the same, NDC. I have no idea what this is about.
-
Saw this earlier, like a few dozen preople on Twitter accused Mike Lelito of throwing up the white power sign when celebrating the bracket. He was just doing the Westbrook gun holster 3 point celebration....
To Chico’s point, yea some really effing stupid people started accusing Lelito of being a racist but it really wasn’t that widespread literally just a few dozen people which in the Twitter verse is nothing.
A lot of people, including Harry Froling, were quick to shut it down real quick and no news outlets shared it or made a mention of it either.
Just a select few dumbass people going over the top. Probably shouldn’t even bring attention to the situation because it was such small scale.
-
It was trending Sunday and Monday for a bit under Marquette White and Marquette White Supremacy, Marquette racist. When you type in Marquette other associated trending tweet subjects pop up, and those are some of the examples. Sickening nonsense with people calling for this kid to be kicked off team, rally against MU at the tournament, etc.
Harry Froling weighed in to tell them off, as did many fans at how preposterous it was. The woman he called out deleted her tweet, there were many many more.....several hundred that did not delete, including those that refused to accept the gesture done is a basketball 3 point gesture and example# of NBA players doing it as evidence. One fan responded to the claims stated “stop trying to ruin a kids life” which I thought was dead on. Very sad, glad to see most people call out theses idiots. Not fair to the young man, the team or the university. People are sick with this crap. I reported as many of the tweets as I could to Twitter, but they will likely do nothing. It is reverse racism in my opinion to accuse in this fashion. Twitter rightfully bans people for making racist comments, but when users accuse others of it wrongfully, no punishment while this kid’s image, video, etc are there to tarnish him and the team? Just wrong.
-
Great - I can now add another reason why I'm glad I don't do twitter. My life is unchanged not being a part of this faux 'twitter battle' -- and now we are all onto the next thing (except Cheeks who seems to be keeping it alive).
-
The internet in general, and twitter in specific is horrible.
-
It was trending Sunday and Monday for a bit under Marquette White and Marquette White Supremacy, Marquette racist. When you type in Marquette other associated trending tweet subjects pop up, and those are some of the examples. Sickening nonsense with people calling for this kid to be kicked off team, rally against MU at the tournament, etc.
Harry Froling weighed in to tell them off, as did many fans at how preposterous it was. The woman he called out deleted her tweet, there were many many more.....several hundred that did not delete, including those that refused to accept the gesture done is a basketball 3 point gesture and example# of NBA players doing it as evidence. One fan responded to the claims stated “stop trying to ruin a kids life” which I thought was dead on. Very sad, glad to see most people call out theses idiots. Not fair to the young man, the team or the university. People are sick with this crap. I reported as many of the tweets as I could to Twitter, but they will likely do nothing. It is reverse racism in my opinion to accuse in this fashion. Twitter rightfully bans people for making racist comments, but when users accuse others of it wrongfully, no punishment while this kid’s image, video, etc are there to tarnish him and the team? Just wrong.
So why bring light to it? I don't do Twitter so not sure how to efficiently search through things on Twitter, but Googling "Marquette NCAA Tournament reveal reaction" before you explained what the outrage was didn't bring me to any Tweets that you're describing. Chances are like 100 total people saw it, and 98 of them said "Clearly you don't watch basketball" and that was that.
-
Twatter free since forever!
-
I saw the white power tweets very quickly after the selection show. It was certainly a thing for a while.
-
Yeah was definitely a thing, just wasn't a big thing within the context of twitter. This is why, while I find it very useful generally, twitter is a retched hive of scum and villainy. It's basically the JSOnline comments section for the globe.
It's unhelpful that Chico's is the one pointing this out as that has the effect of neutralizing an otherwise relevant point. We definitely have an outrage problem, on the internet for sure, but in public discourse generally as well.
-
Breaking News: People on Twitter say dumb things.
-
The internet in general, and twitter in specific is horrible.
This is true
-
I saw the white power tweets very quickly after the selection show. It was certainly a thing for a while.
Really? I didn’t see or hear about it until the next day and I am on twitter constantly.
-
So why bring light to it? I don't do Twitter so not sure how to efficiently search through things on Twitter, but Googling "Marquette NCAA Tournament reveal reaction" before you explained what the outrage was didn't bring me to any Tweets that you're describing. Chances are like 100 total people saw it, and 98 of them said "Clearly you don't watch basketball" and that was that.
Supposed to ignore it? Sorry, one of our guys was accused of something he should not have been that is one of the worst accusations you can do. It definitely wasn’t 100 people.
We get bent here when some guy a message board says Hauser isn’t a great shooter, but we’re supposed to pretend 100’s of tweets calling one of our players racist, a total bs charge, is nothing. Come on.
If anything, it is another teachable moment that people throw that crap out way too often and innocent people are harmed. The more that it is called out, perhaps people will think twice before doing it. The only way it really stops is these companies need to be held accountable. Way too much power, a lawsuit or two would be fantastic.
-
Yeah was definitely a thing, just wasn't a big thing within the context of twitter. This is why, while I find it very useful generally, twitter is a retched hive of scum and villainy. It's basically the JSOnline comments section for the globe.
It's unhelpful that Chico's is the one pointing this out as that has the effect of neutralizing an otherwise relevant point. We definitely have an outrage problem, on the internet for sure, but in public discourse generally as well.
It’s not what is said, it is who says the what here at Scoop.
-
Breaking News: People on Twitter say dumb things.
Breaking news, people should be held accountable especially for the truly abhorrent things said on Twitter or it will continue.
-
It's sooooo sad when someone insults a white person. What is our society becoming that this can happen! And for chico to be the one that points it out may be just a bit on the ironic side.
I remember how outraged chico was when Jon Henson was actually treated unfiarly. Oh, wait.....
-
Breaking news, people should be held accountable especially for the truly abhorrent things said on Twitter or it will continue.
So some people saw what they thought was a white power symbol, call it out, others say no you're wrong he made this symbol, the "instigator" deletes their tweet and then nothing happens.
I don't see anything "truly abhorrent" and I do see people being held accountable. What exactly do you want done to a person who mistook a hand signal on the internet?
-
I was trying to figure out what symbol people were talking about so I did some research. Apparently the symbol he made is associated with white supremacy. It is also more commonly known as the "ok" symbol and is a very common celebration in basketball for a three pointer. Symbols mean different things to different people. Just because we mean it one way doesn't mean someone else is wrong when they take it another way.
-
I signed James Breeding with a finger I consider to mean "have a great day". He assigned me a Flagrant 2.
-
It's sooooo sad when someone insults a white person. What is our society becoming that this can happen! And for chico to be the one that points it out may be just a bit on the ironic side.
I remember how outraged chico was when Jon Henson was actually treated unfiarly. Oh, wait.....
Won't speak for Cheeks, but it is possible that he was pointing out the obvious double standard that exists in our society.
-
The internet in general, and twitter in specific is horrible.
There is no way I will ever do twitter.
-
There is no way I will ever do twitter.
I have a twitter account (and instgram) for one reason, and one reason only: to follow my daughter's volleyball team. It's been two years, and that's all I've used it for. I'm pretty comfortable saying that once that's over, the accounts will die.
-
It's not even a real hate symbol it started as a hoax.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/intern-white-power-hand-gesture/
Look if I go out right now and say the thumbs up is now a pro IRA sign it doesn't make it true. Even if I get the IRA to start doing it, they're the idiots then not the regular people who might still use the symbol innocently.
-
It's not even a real hate symbol it started as a hoax.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/intern-white-power-hand-gesture/
Look if I go out right now and say the thumbs up is now a pro IRA sign it doesn't make it true. Even if I get the IRA to start doing it, they're the idiots then not the regular people who might still use the symbol innocently.
The New Zealand shooter (obviously a raging white supremacist) threw it up in the courtroom the other day.
Obviously this was not a case of our guy throwing up a hate symbol. But to act like people without knowledge of the Russ celebration wouldn't be sensitive to it lacking the proper context in the immediate aftermath of a horrific tragedy are crazy loonies is preposterous.
White supremacy is an actual problem.
A few dozen people misinterpreting something is not.
-
Really? I didn’t see or hear about it until the next day and I am on twitter constantly.
I have never had a twitter account and I heard of this about at 6:30PM on Sunday.
-
Cheekz is the perfect avatar for the darkened state of the Internet in 2019—an angry middle-aged white guy, triggered by anything and everything, raging out across the web.
-
Cheekz is the perfect avatar for the darkened state of the Internet in 2019—an angry middle-aged white guy, triggered by anything and everything, raging out across the web.
Love how you guys are all “ho-hum” yawn, meh, hey ma, where’s the meatloaf except when you are outraged about something. Then if the responses don’t say exactly what ya want to hear or isn’t said with the right empathy, the pile on begins. Most here know what I mean
These things do ruin people’s lives though. Nothing good happens on social media between the hours of midnight and 12 pm though hey
-
Cheekz is the perfect avatar for the darkened state of the Internet in 2019—an angry middle-aged white guy, triggered by anything and everything, raging out across the web.
Solid ad hominem.
From now on please aim all of your displeasure at the people that actually deserve it: The power-hungry moderators of Muscoop dot com. I'd use the url but I don't want to give their godforsaken website the traffic.
-
Interesting my reply was deleted. I truly have no idea why. I see someone said "angry middle aged white guy" which is an attack on age, race and gender...the irony. That is allowed to stay.
I wish I knew what I said that was so bad, let alone worse than what Babyblue said. Truly wish I knew.
-
Twatter free since forever!
Sexist and off topic. Why post this? Just to get a jab in at women? tsk tsk.
-
Twatter free since forever!
I thought you had a couple kids...
-
I thought you had a couple kids...
Miracles.
-
Won't speak for Cheeks, but it is possible that he was pointing out the obvious double standard that exists in our society.
The white man has had it his way for far too long, Doc. Nothing wrong with a thumb on the scale to make up for centuries of privilege.
Speaking of which, it's been a few decades since the white man has rounded up an entire group of Americans descended from Asian immigrants. Everyone knows Jockey's little statement is a dog whistle for the white man to once more round up some slanty-eyed bastards and throw them into desert gulags. You know, they are getting uppity and such.
-
In before the lock.
-
Won't speak for Cheeks, but it is possible that he was pointing out the obvious double standard that exists in our society.
The hypocrisy is thick, and thinking that doing this will bring people together is even more eye opening. Of course, the dirty secret is they don’t want to bring people together...the industry of dividing is very profitable for both sides.
-
"Both sides"?
Wow, lots of politics here!
-
Eye don't feel like workin' tadey, hey?
-
"Both sides"?
Wow, lots of politics here!
Nope......societal statement, not political.
-
The New Zealand shooter (obviously a raging white supremacist) threw it up in the courtroom the other day.
Obviously this was not a case of our guy throwing up a hate symbol. But to act like people without knowledge of the Russ celebration wouldn't be sensitive to it lacking the proper context in the immediate aftermath of a horrific tragedy are crazy loonies is preposterous.
White supremacy is an actual problem.
A few dozen people misinterpreting something is not.
At least in today’s world, I would imagine that the majority of even white supremacists do not condone violence. I am not quite sure that the majority of proponents of radical Islam do not condone violence. Yet, our former President insisted that we cannot use the term “radical Islam” in our common parlance. In fact, the studies have shown that he may have been correct in favoring omission of this usage, as it only fuels recruiting for terrorism. Yet, any attempt to, ahem, whitewash “white supremacy” from our lexicon would be met with fierce resistance from 100% of the media even if it had the same effect of slowing the growth of said extremism. Frankly, I wish all white supremacists and radical Islamists would go straight to Hell, but for the life of me I can’t understand how nobody sees the non-color blind nature of virtue-signaling. “Look at me, I’m so virtuous that I’m scanning the Twitterverse to find white racists” (preposterous as the accusation was here) yet the same person will allow real cases of reverse racism to pervade the internet and Twitter daily.
-
Cheekz is the perfect avatar for the darkened state of the Internet in 2019—an angry middle-aged white guy, triggered by anything and everything, raging out across the web.
Maybe he’s triggered by everyone else’s quick virtue trigger. What came first the chicken or the egg?
-
At least in today’s world, I would imagine that the majority of even white supremacists do not condone violence. I am not quite sure that the majority of proponents of radical Islam do not condone violence. Yet, our former President insisted that we cannot use the term “radical Islam” in our common parlance. In fact, the studies have shown that he may have been correct in favoring omission of this usage, as it only fuels recruiting for terrorism. Yet, any attempt to, ahem, whitewash “white supremacy” from our lexicon would be met with fierce resistance from 100% of the media even if it had the same effect of slowing the growth of said extremism. Frankly, I wish all white supremacists and radical Islamists would go straight to Hell, but for the life of me I can’t understand how nobody sees the non-color blind nature of virtue-signaling. “Look at me, I’m so virtuous that I’m scanning the Twitterverse to find white racists” (preposterous as the accusation was here) yet the same person will allow real cases of reverse racism to pervade the internet and Twitter daily.
Again, white supremacy is an actual problem, not a perceived overreaction to it in the aftermath of a horrific tragedy. Very odd that this is what some people are choosing to focus on.
-
Again, white supremacy is an actual problem, not a perceived overreaction to it in the aftermath of a horrific tragedy. Very odd that this is what some people are choosing to focus on.
Correct. And correct.
-
Again, white supremacy is an actual problem, not a perceived overreaction to it in the aftermath of a horrific tragedy. Very odd that this is what some people are choosing to focus on.
I suggest you read the works of Jordan Peterson.
Radical Islam is a very real problem as well. And if a bunch of right-wing idiots went on Twitter after a Hezbollah car bombing and started examining every Middle Eastern soccer team mistakenly thinking celebrants were flashing terrorist symbols, I would be just as irritated. The left would attack this group of virtue-signalling, and probably rightly so. The moment someone calls out the other version of internet recklessness, release the hounds. Cheeks may not be the most popular person here, but he is most definitely onto something.
So I ask you...if it were proven that removing “white supremacy” from our lexicon would greatly reduce the kind of despicable violence we are seeing lately, would you support it?
I don’t think these clowns who trolled MU’s NCAA celebration were originally reacting to the recent tragedy. You had no problem implying that they were. And if they were, then...being severely in error....all they ended up doing is creating more division, which was Cheek’s’ point to begin with. Inflammatory language and reckless accusation, especially where it is completely unsubstantiated by fact, leads to another predictable and sad cycle of violence.
-
I suggest you read the works of Jordan Peterson.
Radical Islam is a very real problem as well. And if a bunch of right-wing idiots went on Twitter after a Hezbollah car bombing and started examining every Middle Eastern soccer team mistakenly thinking celebrants were flashing terrorist symbols, I would be just as irritated. The left would attack this group of virtue-signalling, and probably rightly so. The moment someone calls out the other version of internet recklessness, release the hounds. Cheeks may not be the most popular person here, but he is most definitely onto something.
So I ask you...if it were proven that removing “white supremacy” from our lexicon would greatly reduce the kind of despicable violence we are seeing lately, would you support it?
I don’t think these clowns who trolled MU’s NCAA celebration were originally reacting to the recent tragedy. You had no problem implying that they were. And if they were, then...being severely in error....all they ended up doing is creating more division, which was Cheek’s’ point to begin with. Inflammatory language and reckless accusation, especially where it is completely unsubstantiated by fact, leads to another predictable and sad cycle of violence.
You complete me
-
I suggest you read the works of Jordan Peterson.
Radical Islam is a very real problem as well. And if a bunch of right-wing idiots went on Twitter after a Hezbollah car bombing and started examining every Middle Eastern soccer team mistakenly thinking celebrants were flashing terrorist symbols, I would be just as irritated. The left would attack this group of virtue-signalling, and probably rightly so. The moment someone calls out the other version of internet recklessness, release the hounds. Cheeks may not be the most popular person here, but he is most definitely onto something.
So I ask you...if it were proven that removing “white supremacy” from our lexicon would greatly reduce the kind of despicable violence we are seeing lately, would you support it?
I don’t think these clowns who trolled MU’s NCAA celebration were originally reacting to the recent tragedy. You had no problem implying that they were. And if they were, then...being severely in error....all they ended up doing is creating more division, which was Cheek’s’ point to begin with. Inflammatory language and reckless accusation, especially where it is completely unsubstantiated by fact, leads to another predictable and sad cycle of violence.
I understand the point you’re trying to make but man, citing Peterson probably isn’t the route you want to go with that.
OT: https://twitter.com/mikhailaaleksis/status/1100674556992335874?s=21
Normal people
-
LOL Jordan Peterson is a Grade A moron
-
Again, white supremacy is an actual problem, not a perceived overreaction to it in the aftermath of a horrific tragedy. Very odd that this is what some people are choosing to focus on.
Yes, it is. So is wrongly accusing people of it, also a big problem and further undermines the claims when real racism actually happens.
Odd that some people are choosing to ignore this, especially when one of our players is accused of it.
-
LOL Jordan Peterson is a Grade A moron
Yes. But, a great thinker to the simple-minded.
-
Yes, it is. So is wrongly accusing people of it, also a big problem and further undermines the claims when real racism actually happens.
Odd that some people are choosing to ignore this, especially when one of our players is accused of it.
It's a problem stemming from the much larger and prolific issue of racism. I don't think anyone is ignoring that the inappropriate accustions sometimes happen and is a detriment to society, just pointing out that it isn't even close to a 50/50 issue. It is similar to using one false rape accusation as a reason to never believe victims when the statistics clearly state otherwise (I am in no way suggesting you do this, just to clarify).
-
LOL Jordan Peterson is a Grade A moron
Ah the ad hominem.
Domain of the genius.
-
Yes. But, a great thinker to the simple-minded.
Because you disagree with him.
High-brow stuff.
-
You complete me
So you're aligned with a flat-earther. This actually makes sense.
-
The internet in general, and twitter in specific is horrible.
I don't have a cell phone, no Twitter, Facebook, snap chat, what's up, no nothing. I was the first in my circle to have a work related Blackberry, now I have serenity, privacy, peace of mind, and civility, all very worthwhile goals.
-
It's a problem stemming from the much larger and prolific issue of racism. I don't think anyone is ignoring that the inappropriate accustions sometimes happen and is a detriment to society, just pointing out that it isn't even close to a 50/50 issue. It is similar to using one false rape accusation as a reason to never believe victims when the statistics clearly state otherwise (I am in no way suggesting you do this, just to clarify).
The level of people being accused of things in today's social media age is off the charts. Whether it is 50/50 or 20/80, it is too much. Lives can be ruined. I hope people take legal action to protect their good name, it's the only thing that will stop it.
-
So you're aligned with a flat-earther. This actually makes sense.
Hey, not so fast, there are thousands of us around the GLOBE.
I’ll tell you for certain what was flat today....the once-proud Marquette basketball program.
-
So you're aligned with a flat-earther. This actually makes sense.
You made a statement without a racist slur....congratulations.
-
Yes, it is. So is wrongly accusing people of it, also a big problem and further undermines the claims when real racism actually happens.
Odd that some people are choosing to ignore this, especially when one of our players is accused of it.
On the bolded, so what happened to our player? Honest question. If it is a real problem, than it should significantly impact his life for the worse no? For a few hours, some random people he didn't know tweeted that he held up a white power symbol on national tv (which he did, but it is a symbol with many more common meanings) and by the next day, no one was talking about it. He didn't get sent to jail, or lose employment, or be kicked out of school, or have to live in poverty (things that racism/white supremacy does). He may have been uncomfortable and embarrassed for a few hours but I think that's part of life.
On the non-bolded, just because you don't agree with someone else's definition of racism doesn't mean that it is a false accusation or not "real racism."
-
On the bolded, so what happened to our player? Honest question. If it is a real problem, than it should significantly impact his life for the worse no? For a few hours, some random people he didn't know tweeted that he held up a white power symbol on national tv (which he did, but it is a symbol with many more common meanings) and by the next day, no one was talking about it. He didn't get sent to jail, or lose employment, or be kicked out of school, or have to live in poverty (things that racism/white supremacy does). He may have been uncomfortable and embarrassed for a few hours but I think that's part of life.
On the non-bolded, just because you don't agree with someone else's definition of racism doesn't mean that it is a false accusation or not "real racism."
We don’t know, it has been 5 days. Fortunately many people rightfully pushed back on the idiocy of all these people on social media. It’s like the debate we had about these men at schools wrongfully accused of sexual assault and handled so poorly by universities. Remember? The arguments were that these men will be fine, nothing happens, their lives aren’t ruined, etc. Yesterdau USC kicker sued USC for his expulsion....he’s going to win I hope. We are so overzealous as a society right now to punish without taking a deep breath that we are bringing innocent people down. Some may be minor like the MU Twitter sitauation, some have absolute life changing impacts.
-
We don’t know, it has been 5 days. Fortunately many people rightfully pushed back on the idiocy of all these people on social media. It’s like the debate we had about these men at schools wrongfully accused of sexual assault and handled so poorly by universities. Remember? The arguments were that these men will be fine, nothing happens, their lives aren’t ruined, etc. Yesterdau USC kicker sued USC for his expulsion....he’s going to win I hope. We are so overzealous as a society right now to punish without taking a deep breath that we are bringing innocent people down. Some may be minor like the MU Twitter sitauation, some have absolute life changing impacts.
So nothing happened...so maybe this incident wasn't as big a problem as you thought it was.
-
So nothing happened...so maybe this incident wasn't as big a problem as you thought it was.
+1
#fauxoutrage
-
So nothing happened...so maybe this incident wasn't as big a problem as you thought it was.
How do we know? It's been 5 days. This kid goes to apply for a job this Summer, goes to apply to grad school, someone does a background check via social media on him.....which ALL major companies do now....and the yahoos that identified this kid on social media come back to haunt him even though he did nothing wrong. I hope it doesn't impact one of our own on the team (or anyone for that matter), the fact that his name was drawn through the mud was ridiculous.
We just don't know. What I'd like to know is why is it seemingly ok for innocent people getting pegged this way? There should be severe consequences for this stuff. I hope like hell FB, Twitter, etc lose some big cases. The stuff they ban people for while also allowing some of the most ridiculous charges, is nauseating and can be life changing. A number of lawsuits filed already.
-
How do we know? It's been 5 days. This kid goes to apply for a job this Summer, goes to apply to grad school, someone does a background check via social media on him.....which ALL major companies do now....and the yahoos that identified this kid on social media come back to haunt him even though he did nothing wrong. I hope it doesn't impact one of our own on the team (or anyone for that matter), the fact that his name was drawn through the mud was ridiculous.
We just don't know. What I'd like to know is why is it seemingly ok for innocent people getting pegged this way? There should be severe consequences for this stuff. I hope like hell FB, Twitter, etc lose some big cases. The stuff they ban people for while also allowing some of the most ridiculous charges, is nauseating and can be life changing. A number of lawsuits filed already.
You let me know know when this incident significantly impacts our player's life. I'll wait. As someone who does social media background checks on students, this would be the most giant of nothingburgers....and I'm a pretty proud SJW.
And just to address this again, you seem to be implying that this is a false accusation, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's how its coming off. This isn't a false accusation. He did make a symbol that has been associated with white supremacy. Its a symbol that has dozens of other meanings, most of them more common in American culture. Just because you and I interpret it one way, doesn't make it wrong when someone else interprets it another way. It certainly didn't help that they same symbol was used by the mosque shooter just days earlier.
-
You let me know know when this incident significantly impacts our player's life. I'll wait. As someone who does social media background checks on students, this would be the most giant of nothingburgers....and I'm a pretty proud SJW.
And just to address this again, you seem to be implying that this is a false accusation, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's how its coming off. This isn't a false accusation. He did make a symbol that has been associated with white supremacy. Its a symbol that has dozens of other meanings, most of them more common in American culture. Just because you and I interpret it one way, doesn't make it wrong when someone else interprets it another way. It certainly didn't help that they same symbol was used by the mosque shooter just days earlier.
Except that it is a complete hoax created by 4Chan to trigger SJWs, which apparently it has.....and what's worse, there are so many out there that believe it and then levy charges against innocent people.
https://blog.emojipedia.org/no-the-ok-hand-is-not-a-symbol-of-white-power/
Your mileage may very, but there are corporations when they do these checks they are so ultra conservative on this stuff, anything that they can point to as something they are unsure of can be a problem.
-
Except that it is a complete hoax created by 4Chan to trigger SJWs, which apparently it has.....and what's worse, there are so many out there that believe it and then levy charges against innocent people.
https://blog.emojipedia.org/no-the-ok-hand-is-not-a-symbol-of-white-power/
Your mileage may very, but there are corporations when they do these checks they are so ultra conservative on this stuff, anything that they can point to as something they are unsure of can be a problem.
I'm sure you are aware that symbols change with the times. It does not matter that it started as a hoax. It has been adopted and used in a way to symbolize hate. A man who killed 50 people for being Muslim just used the symbol in court. It may have started as a hoax, but it is no longer. Just add it to the list of things that white supremacists have ruined. Now that doesn't mean I'll never use the symbol again, because it has many non hateful meanings. But if someone tells me "hey, why are using a white power symbol?" I won't get angry at them for being oversensitive, I'll simply explain the intent I had and apologize for offending them and use a different symbol around that person. It really is that simple.
There may be some ultra conservative business out there on this topic, in my experience there are a lot more ultra liberal businesses on this topic who are willing to hire people despite much more concerning behavior, allegations, and in some cases convictions. And again, potentially missing out on one or two job opportunity is not "ruining a life." Most people go through life missing out on more job opportunities than getting job opportunities. I have found that most people don't have ruined lives, and those that do its for much more serious reasons.
-
Life is so unfair for us white guys. Thank God we have Chico's to stand up for us.
-
Life is so unfair for us white guys. Thank God we have Chico's to stand up for us.
Look who plays the race card again because he has no other talking point. Way to go Mutaman, always about race with you.
-
Twitter is the place people go to lose their souls from what I can see.
-
Look who plays the race card again because he has no other talking point. Way to go Mutaman, always about race with you.
Let's see, Chico's posts a link to a story about a gesture now linked to the white power movement, then accuses others of talking about race.
Ayup.
-
Let's see, Chico's posts a link to a story about a gesture now linked to the white power movement, then accuses others of talking about race.
Ayup.
Stop picking on chicos.
He has had to get through his entire life with the enormous burden of being a white, Christian male in America.
-
Let's see, Chico's posts a link to a story about a gesture now linked to the white power movement, then accuses others of talking about race.
Ayup.
I posted a story about a young man wrongly accused by morons of being racist. I didn’t call anyone racist or imply it.....huge difference that even on your worst day you should be able to figure out...but alas.....
-
I posted a story about a young man wrongly accused by morons of being racist. I didn’t call anyone racist or imply it.....huge difference that even on your worst day you should be able to figure out...but alas.....
I may have missed it, but I think most people accused him of flashing a symbol associated with white supremacists (which he did), not being a racist. It's a symbol with a lot more benign meanings and the benign meaning was his intent, but that doesn't make it a false accusation. There were probably a few idiots who called him a racist but those people are just that, idiots.
A false allegation means someone completely made something up, not they interpreted an actual action differently than you interpreted it.
-
I posted a story about a young man wrongly accused by morons of being racist. I didn’t call anyone racist or imply it.....huge difference that even on your worst day you should be able to figure out...but alas.....
You started a thread about a symbol that has been adopted by white nationalists and then whined that others were playing the race card.
It must be exhausting to always be the victim.
-
Turns out chicos was right about the rush to judgment.
All charges against Jussie Smollett dropped.
https://www.apnews.com/1cb151c45b714a749ebadf8e50910a0d
-
Turns out chicos was right about the rush to judgment.
All charges against Jussie Smollett dropped.
https://www.apnews.com/1cb151c45b714a749ebadf8e50910a0d
Yeah, it's pretty clear from everything that I've read today (aside from statements by Smullet, his family and his attorneys) that there was no rush to judgment here. Even the prosecutors who decided to dismiss the case made it pretty clear that Smullet did what he was accused of. They simply claim that they decided that there were other, more serious crimes to prosecute. And I think that is probably pretty sensible - even if it is unusual.
-
Yeah, it's pretty clear from everything that I've read today (aside from statements by Smullet, his family and his attorneys) that there was no rush to judgment here. Even the prosecutors who decided to dismiss the case made it pretty clear that Smullet did what he was accused of. They simply claim that they decided that there were other, more serious crimes to prosecute. And I think that is probably pretty sensible - even if it is unusual.
Oh just stop with your common-sense postings.
-
Turns out chicos was right about the rush to judgment.
All charges against Jussie Smollett dropped.
https://www.apnews.com/1cb151c45b714a749ebadf8e50910a0d
“Whitewash”. That was from the mayor of Chicago. The prosecutor says he is guilty, but dropped the charges. The superintendent of police is beside himself.
What a joke, but this is Cook County and that’s all that needs to be said.
-
I may have missed it, but I think most people accused him of flashing a symbol associated with white supremacists (which he did), not being a racist. It's a symbol with a lot more benign meanings and the benign meaning was his intent, but that doesn't make it a false accusation. There were probably a few idiots who called him a racist but those people are just that, idiots.
A false allegation means someone completely made something up, not they interpreted an actual action differently than you interpreted it.
You indeed missed it, many said he was racist for using the ok symbol....there were several hundred tweets first few days, many claiming just that.
-
I'm sure you are aware that symbols change with the times. It does not matter that it started as a hoax. It has been adopted and used in a way to symbolize hate. A man who killed 50 people for being Muslim just used the symbol in court. It may have started as a hoax, but it is no longer. Just add it to the list of things that white supremacists have ruined. Now that doesn't mean I'll never use the symbol again, because it has many non hateful meanings. But if someone tells me "hey, why are using a white power symbol?" I won't get angry at them for being oversensitive, I'll simply explain the intent I had and apologize for offending them and use a different symbol around that person. It really is that simple.
Symbols may change with the times, but so what. A white supremacist is not going to dictate that I cannot use a symbol to say 'OK' that I have used my entire life. Why would you apologize? You did nothing wrong.
A few years ago, some in this country tried to make "Liberal" a dirty word. Many Liberals started (and continue) to call themselves Progressives, instead. Every one of those people are cowards. We can never let hate groups define what we call ourselves (or what symbols we use).
-
Symbols may change with the times, but so what. A white supremacist is not going to dictate that I cannot use a symbol to say 'OK' that I have used my entire life. Why would you apologize? You did nothing wrong.
I apologize for Godwinning this, but you would be okay with someone displaying a swastika or using the heil sign? After all they had non-offensive meanings until a white supremacist used them to symbolize his movement.
You say I did nothing wrong, but I did. I offended someone. I didn't mean to do it but I did it regardless of my intent. The right thing to do IMHO is to apologize and respect the fact that for this person that symbol means something hateful. I will continue to use the ok symbol in my everyday life, but I will respect that person by refraining to use it around them. It's really not a big burden. I can use a thumbs up just as easily as the ok symbol. If I forget and mess up, I will apologize again. It really doesn't have to be a big deal. All of this assuming that the offense is genuine of course. If the person is just trying to be difficult, that is something else entirely.
Let's think about this another way. Say you are working with someone you don't really know. They ask if you if everything looks good and you respond by flashing them the ok symbol. Suddenly, that person bursts into tears. You have no idea what happened so you ask what's wrong. The person then explains that their cousin, brother, what have you was one of the people who died in the mosque shootings. Seeing the symbol used by their relative's murderer just brought all the pain they've been feeling to the surface. Are you going to tell that person that you did nothing wrong and continue to use the ok symbol around them? Or are you going to apologize for unintentionally hurting them and use a thumbs up around that person from now on?
We all have different experiences and different cultural contexts that inform our perception. To assume our interpretation is the only one or the correct one is a mistake.
-
I apologize for Godwinning this, but you would be okay with someone displaying a swastika or using the heil sign? After all they had non-offensive meanings until a white supremacist used them to symbolize his movement.
You say I did nothing wrong, but I did. I offended someone. I didn't mean to do it but I did it regardless of my intent. The right thing to do IMHO is to apologize and respect the fact that for this person that symbol means something hateful. I will continue to use the ok symbol in my everyday life, but I will respect that person by refraining to use it around them. It's really not a big burden. I can use a thumbs up just as easily as the ok symbol. If I forget and mess up, I will apologize again. It really doesn't have to be a big deal. All of this assuming that the offense is genuine of course. If the person is just trying to be difficult, that is something else entirely.
Let's think about this another way. Say you are working with someone you don't really know. They ask if you if everything looks good and you respond by flashing them the ok symbol. Suddenly, that person bursts into tears. You have no idea what happened so you ask what's wrong. The person then explains that their cousin, brother, what have you was one of the people who died in the mosque shootings. Seeing the symbol used by their relative's murderer just brought all the pain they've been feeling to the surface. Are you going to tell that person that you did nothing wrong and continue to use the ok symbol around them? Or are you going to apologize for unintentionally hurting them and use a thumbs up around that person from now on?
We all have different experiences and different cultural contexts that inform our perception. To assume our interpretation is the only one or the correct one is a mistake.
If anti-semites decides the handshake was their official symbol of action and a bunch of people actually believed this nonsense to make it a thing, much like SJWs got hoodwinked on the OK thing, you would stop shaking people’s hands?
-
If anti-semites decides the handshake was their official symbol of action and a bunch of people actually believed this nonsense to make it a thing, much like SJWs got hoodwinked on the OK thing, you would stop shaking people’s hands?
No. I would keep shaking peoples hands until I met someone who said "I don't do that because to me it is a symbol of hate" then out of respect I would give that person a fist bump instead. I would then continue to shake other people's hands....which is exactly what I said in my last post.
I have a personal example of that actually. There is a female student from Iran who works in a department that I share a building with. When I met her I offered to shake her hand. She didn't accept it and waved instead and introduced herself. At the time I thought it was odd but I assumed she was feeling sick or something and didn't want to spread it around. I guess it must of showed on my face because the next time I saw her she felt compelled to explain that in her faith it wasn't appropriate for men and women to shake hands and apologized if she caused me offense. I said no apologies were needed and apologized for putting her on the spot. Now every time I see her I just wave and say hi. It would be grossly disrespectful of me if I kept insisting to her that she should shake my hand.
No one is saying that you are a racist or a bad person if you use the ok symbol or "shake someone's hand". Well maybe some idiots on twitter are, but those people are idiots, or at least they are idiots when on social media. It's just about being respectful of someone else when they interpret something differently than you do. It doesn't have to be the big deal it is often made out to be.
I do want to ask though. You criticize SJWs for getting hoodwinked and they did, it started as a hoax. But a man who just murdered over 50 people for being Muslim used that symbol to punctuate his deeds in court. Are you saying that in my example, if you met a relative of one of those victims, you would tell them they have no right to get upset? You are a good man Jamie, I could be wrong but I think you would apologize and refrain from using that symbol around that person again.
-
Merry Christmas. If someone tells me they don't celebrate it, I say to them....politely...I DO. Merry Christmas.
-
Merry Christmas. If someone tells me they don't celebrate it, I say to them....politely...I DO. Merry Christmas.
So if you know somebody is Jewish or Muslim, you politely wish him or her Merry Christmas because you celebrate it?
Do you also wish others happy birthday when it's your birthday?
-
So if you know somebody is Jewish or Muslim, you politely wish him or her Merry Christmas because you celebrate it?
Do you also wish others happy birthday when it's your birthday?
I send out Merry Christmas cards to friends and family, because that is what WE celebrate. Not all are Christians or celebrate Christmas. At least one is Muslim, a number are Jewish, or atheists. It is what we celebrate, that is why. Tis the season. If I am at a store, buying something from the clerk, or helping someone out during that time of the season, I say thank you and Merry Christmas. If they say Happy Hanukah...I acknowledge that and wish them a Happy Hanukah. We all smile, the world continues to spin on its axis. So on and so forth. Pretty simple, not hard, not mean, very straight forward.
If some guy decided that a handshake was their new signal for some absurd endorsement of terrible behavior, I would absolutely not stop using it. Why would I allow some a-hole group of stealing something like that? For the same reason why have people let the simple A-ok to be put in this situation. Beyond dumb. What's next, thumbs up? Give me a break.
-
I send out Merry Christmas cards to friends and family, because that is what WE celebrate. Not all are Christians or celebrate Christmas. At least one is Muslim, a number are Jewish, or atheists. It is what we celebrate, that is why. Tis the season. If I am at a store, buying something from the clerk, or helping someone out during that time of the season, I say thank you and Merry Christmas. If they say Happy Hanukah...I acknowledge that and wish them a Happy Hanukah. We all smile, the world continues to spin on its axis. So on and so forth. Pretty simple, not hard, not mean, very straight forward.
If some guy decided that a handshake was their new signal for some absurd endorsement of terrible behavior, I would absolutely not stop using it. Why would I allow some a-hole group of stealing something like that? For the same reason why have people let the simple A-ok to be put in this situation. Beyond dumb. What's next, thumbs up? Give me a break.
What's next? A swastika for crissakes?
The swastika was a Hindu symbol of prosperity and good luck. So what if a bunch of a-holes murdered millions of people with that symbol as a backdrop. I like it. I think it's sporty! And anybody who disagrees is an a-hole.
OK, I think it's obvious I'm being intentionally dopey there. But, seriously ...
You would go up to an Orthodox Jew, in full regalia, and wish him Merry Christmas because that's what you celebrate?
Cool.
-
What's next? A swastika for crissakes?
The swastika was a Hindu symbol of prosperity and good luck. So what if a bunch of a-holes murdered millions of people with that symbol as a backdrop. I like it. I think it's sporty! And anybody who disagrees is an a-hole.
OK, I think it's obvious I'm being intentionally dopey there. But, seriously ...
You would go up to an Orthodox Jew, in full regalia, and wish him Merry Christmas because that's what you celebrate?
Cool.
::) Yes, and a-holes took the crucifix and burned it, too, with sheets over their heads.
Don't let people hijack symbols. It is beyond ridiculous that people are even hesitating for one second to use the A-OK symbol because they think it will brand them accordingly.....only thing more ridiculous is people believing that those using it fit the bill. ENOUGH
-
Merry Christmas. If someone tells me they don't celebrate it, I say to them....politely...I DO. Merry Christmas.
I send out Merry Christmas cards to friends and family, because that is what WE celebrate. Not all are Christians or celebrate Christmas. At least one is Muslim, a number are Jewish, or atheists. It is what we celebrate, that is why. Tis the season. If I am at a store, buying something from the clerk, or helping someone out during that time of the season, I say thank you and Merry Christmas. If they say Happy Hanukah...I acknowledge that and wish them a Happy Hanukah. We all smile, the world continues to spin on its axis. So on and so forth. Pretty simple, not hard, not mean, very straight forward.
No one is saying you can't say Merry Christmas. Your first post is a bit rough. I don't know if it's intentional or not but it comes off as you reprimanding the other person for telling you they don't celebrate the same holidays as you. But the second post you say that if faced with someone you know is Jewish, you would tell them Happy Hanukkah instead of Merry Christmas. That is great because you are going out of your way to say something that you know that they will appreciate. I would hope that if that person knew that you celebrated Christmas that they would return the respect you showed them to you.
If some guy decided that a handshake was their new signal for some absurd endorsement of terrible behavior, I would absolutely not stop using it. Why would I allow some a-hole group of stealing something like that? For the same reason why have people let the simple A-ok to be put in this situation. Beyond dumb. What's next, thumbs up? Give me a break.
Again you are fighting an argument that no one is making. Not one person in this conversation has told you to stop making the ok symbol, or shaking hands, or giving a thumbs up in your everyday life. What I have said, is that if someone says that symbol means something hurtful to them, you should them respect by not using that symbol in front of them.
I have now given you two examples. The theoretical one where someone lost a relative to the mass murderer in New Zealand and was brought to tears, and the one from my actual life where a young woman declined to shake hands because it goes against her faith. What do you think the most right thing to do in those situations is? Insist to the person that they have no right to be offended and continue to do something that they have asked you not to do around them? Or do you apologize for unintentionally hurting them and give them a good thumbs up, fist bump, or wave the next time you see them?
-
No. I would keep shaking peoples hands until I met someone who said "I don't do that because to me it is a symbol of hate" then out of respect I would give that person a fist bump instead. I would then continue to shake other people's hands....which is exactly what I said in my last post.
I have a personal example of that actually. There is a female student from Iran who works in a department that I share a building with. When I met her I offered to shake her hand. She didn't accept it and waved instead and introduced herself. At the time I thought it was odd but I assumed she was feeling sick or something and didn't want to spread it around. I guess it must of showed on my face because the next time I saw her she felt compelled to explain that in her faith it wasn't appropriate for men and women to shake hands and apologized if she caused me offense. I said no apologies were needed and apologized for putting her on the spot. Now every time I see her I just wave and say hi. It would be grossly disrespectful of me if I kept insisting to her that she should shake my hand.
No one is saying that you are a racist or a bad person if you use the ok symbol or "shake someone's hand". Well maybe some idiots on twitter are, but those people are idiots, or at least they are idiots when on social media. It's just about being respectful of someone else when they interpret something differently than you do. It doesn't have to be the big deal it is often made out to be.
I do want to ask though. You criticize SJWs for getting hoodwinked and they did, it started as a hoax. But a man who just murdered over 50 people for being Muslim used that symbol to punctuate his deeds in court. Are you saying that in my example, if you met a relative of one of those victims, you would tell them they have no right to get upset? You are a good man Jamie, I could be wrong but I think you would apologize and refrain from using that symbol around that person again.
So, you like keep a book or use your phone to keep track of everyone you offend by doing or saying everyday things? I can imagine the brain power you must use to remember all of those perceived slights that you've had to apologize for over the years. Must be exhausting.
-
So, you like keep a book or use your phone to keep track of everyone you offend by doing or saying everyday things? I can imagine the brain power you must use to remember all of those perceived slights that you've had to apologize for over the years. Must be exhausting.
It's not exhausting at all. I don't find apologizing for an unintentional offense or giving someone a wave instead of a hand shake to be that tiring. Plus, I value respect. I appreciate it when people show it me and I try to always show it to others. Golden rule, Jesuit values and all that. I don't mind dedicating a small bit of brain power to it.
What do you think I should have done when I met the young woman from Iran? Should I have insisted she shake my hand? Or should I have respected her wishes?
-
::) Yes, and a-holes took the crucifix and burned it, too, with sheets over their heads.
The crosses aren't the "bad" symbols here. The sheets over the heads are.
Oftentimes, those crosses were burned in the front yards of Jews. Because they didn't appreciate it when folks said Merry Christmas to 'em, I suppose.
-
I apologize for Godwinning this, but you would be okay with someone displaying a swastika or using the heil sign? After all they had non-offensive meanings until a white supremacist used them to symbolize his movement.
You say I did nothing wrong, but I did. I offended someone. I didn't mean to do it but I did it regardless of my intent. The right thing to do IMHO is to apologize and respect the fact that for this person that symbol means something hateful. I will continue to use the ok symbol in my everyday life, but I will respect that person by refraining to use it around them. It's really not a big burden. I can use a thumbs up just as easily as the ok symbol. If I forget and mess up, I will apologize again. It really doesn't have to be a big deal. All of this assuming that the offense is genuine of course. If the person is just trying to be difficult, that is something else entirely.
Let's think about this another way. Say you are working with someone you don't really know. They ask if you if everything looks good and you respond by flashing them the ok symbol. Suddenly, that person bursts into tears. You have no idea what happened so you ask what's wrong. The person then explains that their cousin, brother, what have you was one of the people who died in the mosque shootings. Seeing the symbol used by their relative's murderer just brought all the pain they've been feeling to the surface. Are you going to tell that person that you did nothing wrong and continue to use the ok symbol around them? Or are you going to apologize for unintentionally hurting them and use a thumbs up around that person from now on?
We all have different experiences and different cultural contexts that inform our perception. To assume our interpretation is the only one or the correct one is a mistake.
I would express my sincere sympathy for what happened to their relative. I would say that it is an 'OK' symbol that I used my entire life and I will NEVER let a hate group define who I am.
The swastika example seems chico-esque in finding the most extreme example possible on which to base your opinion.. The last paragraph makes it sound like you base anything you do or say on how someone might perceive it - reasonable or not.
I don't say these things to attack you in any way. I would rate you at the top of all posters on Scoop in your thoughtfulness and non-confrontational nature of your posts. This may even be the 1st time I have ever completely disagreed with a post of yours.
-
I would express my sincere sympathy for what happened to their relative. I would say that it is an 'OK' symbol that I used my entire life and I will NEVER let a hate group define who I am.
The swastika example seems chico-esque in finding the most extreme example possible on which to base your opinion.. The last paragraph makes it sound like you base anything you do or say on how someone might perceive it - reasonable or not.
I don't say these things to attack you in any way. I would rate you at the top of all posters on Scoop in your thoughtfulness and non-confrontational nature of your posts. This may even be the 1st time I have ever completely disagreed with a post of yours.
On your first paragraph, I will just say that I see it very differently than you do. While I appreciate your ideals, I think they are much less important in that moment than showing love, care, and respect to a person who has endured a terrible tragedy.
On the second paragraph, I did preface the example with an apology for Godwinning. Only point I was trying to make was that symbols change over time and that they mean different things to different people and different cultures.
On the bolded, that's not what I'm trying to say, though you seem to be the third person who has taken it that way, so maybe I'm a poor communicator. I live my life according to my own cultural context. I use the ok symbol, I say Merry Christmas, I proudly proclaim God Bless America, I swear way more often than I should, I make the occasional off color joke, I am a proud Christian and will tell people about it if they ask me. There are some situations where I try to anticipate other's cultural contexts and act accordingly. For example, if I'm in a professional setting or representing the university somehow, I will make an extra effort to take other's views into account and act accordingly, but honestly these situations are pretty small % of my daily life.
What I am arguing is that when my cultural context unintentionally clashes with someone else's....to say it another way, when I say or do something that is non-offensive to me but offensive to someone else....I think the most right thing to do is to apologize for the unintentional offense and move on. Personally, I have found if you show a person respect they will return it in kind. Where I have gotten in trouble in the past is when I have dug in and insisted I did nothing wrong. This has the potential to turn a slight offense into full blown brawl. Oddly, I think I am saying that I don't get offended when other people get offended.
And I mentioned this elsewhere but I'll say again that the offense must be genuine or reasonable as you put it. If a person is just trying to be difficult or is looking for a fight, than that is something else entirely. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but especially in the cesspools of social media there are some unreasonable claims out there.
As for your last paragraph, I appreciate it. While our politics often align, I sometimes wish you would be more non-confrontational. If you give respect, you will usually receive respect in return. If you give confrontation, you will almost always receive confrontation in return.
-
The crosses aren't the "bad" symbols here. The sheets over the heads are.
Oftentimes, those crosses were burned in the front yards of Jews. Because they didn't appreciate it when folks said Merry Christmas to 'em, I suppose.
According to some folks, the crosses are bad, too.....can't have them being seen by common folk you know. Remove remove.
-
According to some folks, the crosses are bad, too.....can't have them being seen by common folk you know. Remove remove.
Well, here in NC, crosses are everywhere. To atheists like me and religious non-Christians, the constant presence of in-your-face Christianity is annoying, but we chose to live here knowing that this was Hallelujah Kountry, so that's on us.
The only time I believe crosses should be removed is if they are displayed in public schools, courtrooms, etc. Thankfully, most judges agree with that.
But let's not shift the goalposts further down the road.
You wouldn't walk up to an Orthodox Jew on Dec. 24 and say "Merry Christmas" to him or her just because you celebrate it, right?
-
On your first paragraph, I will just say that I see it very differently than you do. While I appreciate your ideals, I think they are much less important in that moment than showing love, care, and respect to a person who has endured a terrible tragedy.
On the second paragraph, I did preface the example with an apology for Godwinning. Only point I was trying to make was that symbols change over time and that they mean different things to different people and different cultures.
On the bolded, that's not what I'm trying to say, though you seem to be the third person who has taken it that way, so maybe I'm a poor communicator. I live my life according to my own cultural context. I use the ok symbol, I say Merry Christmas, I proudly proclaim God Bless America, I swear way more often than I should, I make the occasional off color joke, I am a proud Christian and will tell people about it if they ask me. There are some situations where I try to anticipate other's cultural contexts and act accordingly. For example, if I'm in a professional setting or representing the university somehow, I will make an extra effort to take other's views into account and act accordingly, but honestly these situations are pretty small % of my daily life.
What I am arguing is that when my cultural context unintentionally clashes with someone else's....to say it another way, when I say or do something that is non-offensive to me but offensive to someone else....I think the most right thing to do is to apologize for the unintentional offense and move on. Personally, I have found if you show a person respect they will return it in kind. Where I have gotten in trouble in the past is when I have dug in and insisted I did nothing wrong. This has the potential to turn a slight offense into full blown brawl. Oddly, I think I am saying that I don't get offended when other people get offended.
And I mentioned this elsewhere but I'll say again that the offense must be genuine or reasonable as you put it. If a person is just trying to be difficult or is looking for a fight, than that is something else entirely. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but especially in the cesspools of social media there are some unreasonable claims out there.
As for your last paragraph, I appreciate it. While our politics often align, I sometimes wish you would be more non-confrontational. If you give respect, you will usually receive respect in return. If you give confrontation, you will almost always receive confrontation in return.
I am baffled how this is that complicated to some people. It is just being a decent human being and having empathy.
Although now that I think about it, it does makes sense. And it is important that we call out what is happening. This is a psychological defense mechanism to a rapidly changing world that is moving to embracing diversity and is more in tune than ever to what the minority (which is moving towards a majority) finds offensive. Of course, a lot of those items are things the majority has been doing for a long time and change is not easy, even if it is the right thing to do. It really is a last ditch effort to hold onto the power that they have always had.
-
On your first paragraph, I will just say that I see it very differently than you do. While I appreciate your ideals, I think they are much less important in that moment than showing love, care, and respect to a person who has endured a terrible tragedy.
On the second paragraph, I did preface the example with an apology for Godwinning. Only point I was trying to make was that symbols change over time and that they mean different things to different people and different cultures.
On the bolded, that's not what I'm trying to say, though you seem to be the third person who has taken it that way, so maybe I'm a poor communicator. I live my life according to my own cultural context. I use the ok symbol, I say Merry Christmas, I proudly proclaim God Bless America, I swear way more often than I should, I make the occasional off color joke, I am a proud Christian and will tell people about it if they ask me. There are some situations where I try to anticipate other's cultural contexts and act accordingly. For example, if I'm in a professional setting or representing the university somehow, I will make an extra effort to take other's views into account and act accordingly, but honestly these situations are pretty small % of my daily life.
What I am arguing is that when my cultural context unintentionally clashes with someone else's....to say it another way, when I say or do something that is non-offensive to me but offensive to someone else....I think the most right thing to do is to apologize for the unintentional offense and move on. Personally, I have found if you show a person respect they will return it in kind. Where I have gotten in trouble in the past is when I have dug in and insisted I did nothing wrong. This has the potential to turn a slight offense into full blown brawl. Oddly, I think I am saying that I don't get offended when other people get offended.
And I mentioned this elsewhere but I'll say again that the offense must be genuine or reasonable as you put it. If a person is just trying to be difficult or is looking for a fight, than that is something else entirely. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, but especially in the cesspools of social media there are some unreasonable claims out there.
As for your last paragraph, I appreciate it. While our politics often align, I sometimes wish you would be more non-confrontational. If you give respect, you will usually receive respect in return. If you give confrontation, you will almost always receive confrontation in return.
Come on TAMU. Now I'm stuck agreeing almost entirely with your post again. I also would show love, care, and respect to a person who has endured a terrible tragedy. But I feel any adult would know the symbol has meant 'OK' throughout history and might even appreciate that I won't let a hate group define what I do. I have no problem with your point, however. We all need to react how we feel is right.
As far as being confrontational - yes, I am often guilty. I see it as being reactionary rather than confrontational, but that may just be splitting hairs. I keep vowing to change, but it doesn't seem to pan out :-\
We are reminded of the problem of sensitivity every year when some school district bans Huck Finn, To Kill a Mockingbird, etc. Balancing reality and truth with sensitivity or censorship (not meant as saying sensitivity and censorship are similar) is a hard choice for anyone who cares about all of mankind.
-
Come on TAMU. Now I'm stuck agreeing almost entirely with your post again. I also would show love, care, and respect to a person who has endured a terrible tragedy. But I feel any adult would know the symbol has meant 'OK' throughout history and might even appreciate that I won't let a hate group define what I do. I have no problem with your point, however. We all need to react how we feel is right.
As far as being confrontational - yes, I am often guilty. I see it as being reactionary rather than confrontational, but that may just be splitting hairs. I keep vowing to change, but it doesn't seem to pan out :-\
We are reminded of the problem of sensitivity every year when some school district bans Huck Finn, To Kill a Mockingbird, etc. Balancing reality and truth with sensitivity or censorship (not meant as saying sensitivity and censorship are similar) is a hard choice for anyone who cares about all of mankind.
Well stated Jockey. Like I said above, change is not easy, even if it is the right thing to do. And nobody is perfect and will be in the right all the time. Like TAMU said, you apologize for the mistakes, learn from them, and move on. But awareness is really the most important step in this process for me. That is awareness of your own actions and awareness of situations where those actions are offensive to others.
-
According to some folks, the crosses are bad, too.....can't have them being seen by common folk you know. Remove remove.
Plastic balls on trees too.
-
Well, here in NC, crosses are everywhere. To atheists like me and religious non-Christians, the constant presence of in-your-face Christianity is annoying, but we chose to live here knowing that this was Hallelujah Kountry, so that's on us.
The only time I believe crosses should be removed is if they are displayed in public schools, courtrooms, etc. Thankfully, most judges agree with that.
But let's not shift the goalposts further down the road.
You wouldn't walk up to an Orthodox Jew on Dec. 24 and say "Merry Christmas" to him or her just because you celebrate it, right?
Merry Christmas to ALL and to ALL a goodnight.
-
Well stated Jockey. Like I said above, change is not easy, even if it is the right thing to do. And nobody is perfect and will be in the right all the time. Like TAMU said, you apologize for the mistakes, learn from them, and move on. But awareness is really the most important step in this process for me. That is awareness of your own actions and awareness of situations where those actions are offensive to others.
Does that apply to those you disagree with? 😂. That’s usually where I find the tolerance level and awareness spidey sense starts to malfunction.
-
Does that apply to those you disagree with? 😂. That’s usually where I find the tolerance level and awareness spidey sense starts to malfunction.
Even more so then...if not, then we get what we currently have going on in our society, just a bunch of shouting. Everybody has their own perspective on things, and it is important to have honest and open conversations on those differences. Unfortunately a lot of times that is hard because people will immediately shut down when they talk to somebody who disagrees with them.
-
Merry Christmas to ALL and to ALL a goodnight.
Attaboy.
-
TAMU, I have a great deal of respect for you, and on a micro level, I agree with you (and others taking the same position). As I go about my day-to-day life, I'd really prefer to avoid offending people. Even in cases where I personally believe that there is no real reason to be offended. In general, if I said something or did something and someone I interact with told me that it was offensive, more likely than not I'd refrain from saying or doing it in the future. I consider that the "micro level."
But, on a macro level, I have a lot of problems with some of these things that I consider a little absurd. I'm tired of people who spend their days looking for something to be offended by. I very seriously and sincerely doubt that there is even a single person who saw Lelito, believed he was making a racist gesture, and was offended. Yet, people on Twitter went to work and here we are 10 days later discussing this. I find it maddening and people are just constantly playing "gotcha" and pointing out completely benign behavior and arguing "some people are offended by that" even though it's quite likely that nobody actually was. And, for the record, "both sides" tend to play this game (although I personally believe that one "side" tends to do it more in a reactionary/ironic way that less sincerely held but equally annoying -- the oft-cited faux outrage).
-
Still, I definitely agree with you. There is a population of people out there who weaponize social media and aren't genuinely offended but instead just looking to attack. I have been targeted by such people before and I have found the best defense to be to still apologize for the offense given. If they don't accept it, well I have don't everything in my control to address their concern so all I can do at that point is remove myself from the situation. In most cases, they are not reasonable people. It's one of the many reasons I limit how much time I spend on social media.
In my line of work, I see a lot of complaints that amount to nothing. When we get these complaints, there is usually some sort of unprofessional, creepy, or dickish behavior....but it is not a policy violation, sometimes it's not even close to a policy violation. Where these complaints go sideways, is when the person alleged of the behavior gets wind of it and then retaliates in some way against the person who made the allegation. That's when the media/attorneys get involved and if there was true retaliation, it may end up turning a nothing complaint into a legitimate one. What I have never seen is a nothing complaint that goes sideways when the alleged listens and apologizes for the alleged behavior. I had a recent example where a student accused a professor of making sexist jokes in class. It was unprofessional behavior but not even close to a policy violation. To the student's credit, they didn't just complain to our office, they also emailed the professor their concerns. The professor wrote the student back a genuine apology for offending them and promised to be more careful with their humor during class in the future. The student immediately dropped the allegation after receiving the email. I have found that most times, people who say they were offended simply want to be listened to and shown respect and decency.
This specific situation I think was an example of poor timing. IIRC, the New Zealand terrorist had just flashed that symbol in court literally a day earlier. That story was on every major media outlet and then there was poor Lelito making the same symbol but for a completely benign reason on national television. I don't know what the motivation of the first person to call Lelito out was, could have been malicious or could have been genuine, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. But I do believe that if that story had broken a week later or a week earlier, no one would have noticed.
-
I send out Merry Christmas cards to friends and family, because that is what WE celebrate. Not all are Christians or celebrate Christmas. At least one is Muslim, a number are Jewish, or atheists. It is what we celebrate, that is why. Tis the season. If I am at a store, buying something from the clerk, or helping someone out during that time of the season, I say thank you and Merry Christmas. If they say Happy Hanukah...I acknowledge that and wish them a Happy Hanukah. We all smile, the world continues to spin on its axis. So on and so forth. Pretty simple, not hard, not mean, very straight forward.
If some guy decided that a handshake was their new signal for some absurd endorsement of terrible behavior, I would absolutely not stop using it. Why would I allow some a-hole group of stealing something like that? For the same reason why have people let the simple A-ok to be put in this situation. Beyond dumb. What's next, thumbs up? Give me a break.
Understand your viewpoint, question, though. What do you think would happen if you took a minute to change those handful of cards to the non-Christians and specifically wish them what they celebrate?
Certainly very little effort on your part for potentially big improvements on humanities part. Seems worth considering.