MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on April 24, 2018, 03:02:53 AM
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(Not a thread about Wojo taking the Lakers job)
Despite being very excited about our recent recruiting successes, I'm not ready to suggest NBA teams are going to be knocking down Wojo's door. My thought instead sparks from the poster of Koby lined up on the background of current MU alums in the NBA. Two questions.
1) How important is it to "sell" NBA dreams to recruits? My completely unscientific sense is that like 80% of 3* and better players think they're going to play in the association some day. For the modal recruit, what % of the decision is based on "This school can get me to the NBA?" (vs. academics, location, collegiate success, etc)
2) If the answer to #1 is "quite high", then what is our likelihood of remaining attractive from that standpoint? Our current NBA stock consists of Crean/Buzz players with one exception - and frankly one could argue that Hank still would have made the NBA with a blind squirrel for a coach (and that his stock actually dropped in his year under Woj). Who is the next MU player in the NBA? Markus? Jamal? Koby? And if none of them get there, how does that affect Wojo's recruiting powerpoint?
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I think Sam Hauser will play in the league. I think both Jamal Cain and Greg Elliott have the physical tools to get there. Those would be the best bets, I believe.
Markus could also catch on simply because his one talent is so elite, though his height is a problem. Anyone else we'll need to see more to predict.
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Sam and Joey will play in the NBA. Bailey has the height and bloodline.
Very few players get to the NBA because of their college coach. Hank would’ve made the NBA no matter who coached him...just like 90%+ of NBA players.
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Jay Wright hasn't put many players in the NBA considering how long he has coached.
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Sam and Joey will play in the NBA. Bailey has the height and bloodline.
Very few players get to the NBA because of their college coach. Hank would’ve made the NBA no matter who coached him...just like 90%+ of NBA players.
This is how I feel, it’s about talent with so few players getting drafted especially with more and more international players now in the NBA
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It is very important to a program to have a tradition of sending players to the NBA. There is a reason MU creates that poster McEwen used to announce his commitment. Most all of these kids have the NBA as their ultimate goal - to show that players have gotten there through MU is a selling point. Believe we are in Top 20 programs right now in terms of number of guys currently in NBA.
Jamal and Sam are the two guys on the roster now, that I feel stand the best chance.
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It is very important to a program to have a tradition of sending players to the NBA. There is a reason MU creates that poster McEwen used to announce his commitment. Most all of these kids have the NBA as their ultimate goal - to show that players have gotten there through MU is a selling point. Believe we are in Top 20 programs right now in terms of number of guys currently in NBA.
Jamal and Sam are the two guys on the roster now, that I feel stand the best chance.
I agree with this analysis. Guys like Dwyane and Jimmy are the key headliners, but it's also important to have solid contributors like Wesley, Jae and (until last year) Steve. Hopefully Henry gets things rolling next year.
Sam has shown me the most on the current roster - he does just about everything pretty well - but Jamal certainly has the potential as well.
Joey and/or Brendan could be next after that, but I'll withhold judgment until they have a few games under their belt.
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I agree with this analysis. Guys like Dwyane and Jimmy are the key headliners, but it's also important to have solid contributors like Wesley, Jae and (until last year) Steve. Hopefully Henry gets things rolling next year.
Sam has shown me the most on the current roster - he does just about everything pretty well - but Jamal certainly has the potential as well.
Joey and/or Brendan could be next after that, but I'll withhold judgment until they have a few games under their belt.
Shame wes had that Achilles tear he was getting real close to an all star appearance the two years leading up to that
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Shame wes had that Achilles tear he was getting real close to an all star appearance the two years leading up to that
Yep. His career could have been in the same ballpark as Jimmy's if he hadn't suffered that injury.
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Yep. His career could have been in the same ballpark as Jimmy's if he hadn't suffered that injury.
Nah. He suffered that injury in his sixth NBA season at the age of 28. Up until then he was about a 15/3/2 guy. Solid player but not an all star.
Butler is 28 this year, is a 20/6/4 player, and has already made 4 all star games.
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Very few players get to the NBA because of their college coach.
I think that's a great thought experiment idea. Did Buzz's system help Wesley Matthews get there? Personally, I thought from his freshman year he was the best NBA prospect of the Amigos. How about Jimmy, Jae, or DJO? What about guys who took longer, like Buycks or Jamil. Did MU help their prospects, hinder them, or neither?
Looking west, Bo didn't keep Stiemsma from getting to the NBA despite not really featuring him at all. But would Kaminsky have gotten there without a program willing to give him time to develop and a showcase role as an upperclassman? It would be interesting to look at other programs and guys they got to the NBA.
I do think there are some guys who are undeniable talents. Henry and Wade would be obvious ones, but I think there are plenty of guys that are drafted and get a shot despite not being at that level because of college production or the program they come from.
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Sam will play in the NBA. Joey may, but I don't have enough info to make that determination.
I think Markus could make a career out of being a bench piece shooting specialist. At the very least, I suspect he'll get a shot.
Cain has the body type to play in the NBA, but he'll need to develop a whole lot the next couple seasons.
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Nah. He suffered that injury in his sixth NBA season at the age of 28. Up until then he was about a 15/3/2 guy. Solid player but not an all star.
Butler is 28 this year, is a 20/6/4 player, and has already made 4 all star games.
+1
Wes peaked as a good starter; 3rd or 4th option on a playoff team. But an All-Star he was not.
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Nah. He suffered that injury in his sixth NBA season at the age of 28. Up until then he was about a 15/3/2 guy. Solid player but not an all star.
Butler is 28 this year, is a 20/6/4 player, and has already made 4 all star games.
Wasn't he one of the first couple runners up one year? I know he was getting a decent amount of votes.
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This is one of the reasons players often give for going to Kentucky (see: Herro, Tyler) - that Cal gets guys into the NBA. I would argue that Cal offers a place for the ready-to-bake NBA players to warehouse for a year until the draft takes them. Gives them an opportunity to see how it is to try to play together with a bunch of first-round egos; sometimes he manages to make a team out of them (2013, 2015) and sometimes he doesn't.
Duke recruits, on the other hand, know that K is in it every year and is a good enough coach that he can throw together a tournament contender every year. I think the future NBA'ers go to Duke for a legit shot at the national championship.
Then there is the subset of, "I'm not a one and done but really want to make the league some day" players. I think these are the guys who look at which college programs put a lot of "untraditional" (read: not superstar) guys in the NBA. I do think it helps when they see three- or four-year players who get drafted and stick, second-rounders who stick, and undrafted players who find a role with a team and become journeyman players in the league. I'm not sure the colleges who have produced these players have done anything special to get them to the league; maybe they have just had it in them all along to go to the next level. But I'm sure it doesn't hurt schools like Marquette with that reputation to attract the kind of guys who won't be one and dones but are talents, nonetheless.
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This is one of the reasons players often give for going to Kentucky (see: Herro, Tyler) - that Cal gets guys into the NBA. I would argue that Cal offers a place for the ready-to-bake NBA players to warehouse for a year until the draft takes them. Gives them an opportunity to see how it is to try to play together with a bunch of first-round egos; sometimes he manages to make a team out of them (2013, 2015) and sometimes he doesn't.
Duke recruits, on the other hand, know that K is in it every year and is a good enough coach that he can throw together a tournament contender every year. I think the future NBA'ers go to Duke for a legit shot at the national championship.
Then there is the subset of, "I'm not a one and done but really want to make the league some day" players. I think these are the guys who look at which college programs put a lot of "untraditional" (read: not superstar) guys in the NBA. I do think it helps when they see three- or four-year players who get drafted and stick, second-rounders who stick, and undrafted players who find a role with a team and become journeyman players in the league. I'm not sure the colleges who have produced these players have done anything special to get them to the league; maybe they have just had it in them all along to go to the next level. But I'm sure it doesn't hurt schools like Marquette with that reputation to attract the kind of guys who won't be one and dones but are talents, nonetheless.
Has Coach K really outperformed Cal during the one-and-done era?
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I really like Sam and think he could be one of MU's most rounded all-time players. I'm no scout, but does he really have the athleticism to play in the NBA? Isn't one of the favorite phrases here about the NBA "You are who you can guard"?
But I guess the point I was trying to push from this is at what point would an "NBA drought" start to hurt recruiting? If none of the current guys get there, does that start to drag on the sell?
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Has Coach K really outperformed Cal during the one-and-done era?
Not really, but K's recent trend has been better than Cal's.
Well, you have to consider that K didn't embrace the 1 and dones until 2015 (Parker and Jones) and won a natty that year; since then they have been Sw16, lost in 2nd round and E8.
Cal won his NC in 2012 and didn't make the tourney at all in 2013 (and lost in the first round of the NIT), next two years were F4 years, but since then they haven't done much.
And I think K does a better job of sprinkling in veteran players, which helps success. Cal's players either go pro or transfer in 1-2 years with the program.
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I really like Sam and think he could be one of MU's most rounded all-time players. I'm no scout, but does he really have the athleticism to play in the NBA? Isn't one of the favorite phrases here about the NBA "You are who you can guard"?
But I guess the point I was trying to push from this is at what point would an "NBA drought" start to hurt recruiting? If none of the current guys get there, does that start to drag on the sell?
Prior to this year's Villanova team, how many impact players has Jay Wright sent to the league? How is his recruiting being affected?
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Jay Wright hasn't put many players in the NBA considering how long he has coached.
From his time at Nova: Foye, Ray, Lowry, Cunningham, Archidiacono, Wayns, Hilliard, Ochefu, Hart ... now Bridges & Brunson; more on the way.
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Prior to this year's Villanova team, how many impact players has Jay Wright sent to the league? How is his recruiting being affected?
Lowry & Foye. Cunningham if you appreciate longevity.
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From his time at Nova: Foye, Ray, Lowry, Cunningham, Archidiacono, Wayns, Hilliard, Ochefu, Hart ... now Bridges & Brunson; more on the way.
Wright also has the only All American to not get drafted, didn't really affect his recruiting at all.
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I really like Sam and think he could be one of MU's most rounded all-time players. I'm no scout, but does he really have the athleticism to play in the NBA? Isn't one of the favorite phrases here about the NBA "You are who you can guard"?
But I guess the point I was trying to push from this is at what point would an "NBA drought" start to hurt recruiting? If none of the current guys get there, does that start to drag on the sell?
he played on one leg last year and was one of the best players in the BE
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Wright also has the only All American to not get drafted, didn't really affect his recruiting at all.
hello, Scottie Reynolds
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Lots of stuff in this thread so far.
I do think it is important to help a kid make a reasonable projection of an NBA career. It is the goal of even so many unrealistic kids. I also think it helps having an NBA team playing in the same city - and especially the same arena. All kinds of opportunities for encounters that can only help solidify the relationship between MU and the NBA.
If he gets completely healthy again, Sam will play in the league, and probably will have a nice career. He is a better athlete than some give him credit for and is a crafty defender and rebounder. And when you can hit half your 3s, that's huge in today's NBA. I have equated him to Calbert Cheaney, a player of similar build and athletic ability who had a very long career, and there are plenty of others. Look around NBA rosters; just about every one of them has 2-3-4 players who either are no more athletic than Sam or who are not as well-rounded.
Markus has to be a PG to play in the NBA. While I am thrilled we have added Chartouny and McEwen, their presence very well could hurt Markus' already fairly slim chances of getting to the league.
The others mentioned earlier in this thread ... I just haven't seen enough. Athletically, Cain checks all the boxes, but college hoops is filled with great athletes. We'll see about him, Joey, Elliott, McEwen, etc.
Heldt's a lock!
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I see McEwen as a combo. He and Markus will share PG duties and be pretty interchangeable on offense.
Markus will need to prove he can defend at least a little and increase his assist rate to make the NBA. Even then, size and athleticism are working against him. An interesting contrast of production versus tools.
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I see McEwen as a combo. He and Markus will share PG duties and be pretty interchangeable on offense.
Markus will need to prove he can defend at least a little and increase his assist rate to make the NBA. Even then, size and athleticism are working against him. An interesting contrast of production versus tools.
Fair assessment.
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Not really, but K's recent trend has been better than Cal's.
Well, you have to consider that K didn't embrace the 1 and dones until 2015 (Parker and Jones) and won a natty that year; since then they have been Sw16, lost in 2nd round and E8.
Cal won his NC in 2012 and didn't make the tourney at all in 2013 (and lost in the first round of the NIT), next two years were F4 years, but since then they haven't done much.
And I think K does a better job of sprinkling in veteran players, which helps success. Cal's players either go pro or transfer in 1-2 years with the program.
Pretty sure the Parker year was either the 15 seed beating Duke either Lehigh or Mercer. You're thinking of the Okafor team I believe.
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Pretty sure the Parker year was either the 15 seed beating Duke either Lehigh or Mercer. You're thinking of the Okafor team I believe.
Yes, you’re correct.
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I read an article about scouts watching NCAA games. Basically, they were trying to imagine what role guys could play in the NBA. Example was Nigel Hayes. Offense went through him at Wisconsin, but the scout said that will never happen in the NBA. So he was trying to look at him at a 3 and D guy. So with so much data and video available, I'm not sure how much college coaches help/ hurt players' stock.
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Nah. He suffered that injury in his sixth NBA season at the age of 28. Up until then he was about a 15/3/2 guy. Solid player but not an all star.
Butler is 28 this year, is a 20/6/4 player, and has already made 4 all star games.
I didn't say he was as good - I said he "could have been in the same ballpark." Very different.
The couple of seasons before his injury, he was being talked about as a possible all-star someday.
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I read an article about scouts watching NCAA games. Basically, they were trying to imagine what role guys could play in the NBA. Example was Nigel Hayes. Offense went through him at Wisconsin, but the scout said that will never happen in the NBA. So he was trying to look at him at a 3 and D guy. So with so much data and video available, I'm not sure how much college coaches help/ hurt players' stock.
Simply stated: If you're good enough, they usually will find a role for you.
A few guys do slip through the cracks, but not many.
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I didn't say he was as good - I said he "could have been in the same ballpark." Very different.
The couple of seasons before his injury, he was being talked about as a possible all-star someday.
No he could not have been in the same ballpark. By 28 you are generally are who you are.
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No he could not have been in the same ballpark. By 28 you are generally are who you are.
Just ask Jake Arrieta.