MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: chren21 on March 22, 2018, 07:24:26 PM
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Ugh...
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Porter Moser to Xavier, Custer2MU?
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Where did you read this?
Edit: just saw where they’re scheduled to meet
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I have to think this is just a ploy for Mack to negotiate with X. Why would he leave the good thing he had going for that dumpster fire?
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I have to think this is just a ploy for Mack to negotiate with X. Why would he leave the good thing he had going for that dumpster fire?
Think he'll pull the "It's Louisville... I mean, it's Louisville" a la Crean?
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I have to think this is just a ploy for Mack to negotiate with X. Why would he leave the good thing he had going for that dumpster fire?
X is his Alma mater also. Why would he leave it? Because his wife is from Looserville? Maybe, but I agree that it's a way to get more cash from X.
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I have to think this is just a ploy for Mack to negotiate with X. Why would he leave the good thing he had going for that dumpster fire?
My thoughts exactly. Gotta be a negotiating ploy
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My thoughts exactly. Gotta be a negotiating ploy
If it is a ploy, what does Mack do it X calls his bluff?
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If it is a ploy, what does Mack do it X calls his bluff?
Take the $ and run if X is that dumb
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X is his Alma mater also. Why would he leave it? Because his wife is from Looserville? Maybe, but I agree that it's a way to get more cash from X.
Because he wants to try something different? Because they are going to pay him more?
It really isn't inconceivable.
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Because he wants to try something different? Because they are going to pay him more?
It really isn't inconceivable.
Not inconceivable, but incredibly dumb in my book.
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Because he wants to try something different? Because they are going to pay him more?
It really isn't inconceivable.
He's been at Xavier as an assistant/head coach for like 14 years.
Salary is 1.7 million. Pitt offered Hurley 3 million. I would presume Louisville will be around same/more.
No Blueitt, Macura, O'Mara, and Kanter. Maybe worth taking a look at UL, but he needs to get some sort of preview of what UL may be facing with NCAA. Best of luck to him, seems like a good guy.
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Does Xavier have a good pg coming in that we could recruit?
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Not inconceivable, but incredibly dumb in my book.
Dumb and dangerous
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Does Xavier have a good pg coming in that we could recruit?
Only if they didn’t sign a LOI.
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That'd be a big blow for the BE. Find it really hard he'd leave his Alma mater, or at least give X every opportunity to counter
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Because he wants to try something different? Because they are going to pay him more?
It really isn't inconceivable.
First point—-probably not.
Second point—absolutely!
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If I were X and wasn't given an opportunity to give Mack a raise I'd be a little POed.
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If I were X and wasn't given an opportunity to give Mack a raise I'd be a little POed.
They've had lots of opportunities to give him a raise........
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They've had lots of opportunities to give him a raise........
So are you suggesting that Mack has been mistreated? Don't know, just asking.
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So are you suggesting that Mack has been mistreated? Don't know, just asking.
They could offer him a raise tomorrow before he even meets with them.
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So are you suggesting that Mack has been mistreated? Don't know, just asking.
No not at all.....but considering his success and longevity at Xavier it could be argued he is underpaid....
Maybe he will give them a chance to match the offer if it comes......or maybe Mack just feels that Louisville has more resources and a better upside as a program......maybe he just wants a new challenge......could be numerous reasons why he might want to leave that none of us are aware of.....
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They could offer him a raise tomorrow before he even meets with them.
And we've seen things like that happen before.
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....seems like a good guy.
I could not disagree with this more. His teams are punks and he never holds his players accountable for their actions.
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I could not disagree with this more. His teams are punks and he never holds his players accountable for their actions.
I’ve never had that impression of Xavier.
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I could not disagree with this more. His teams are punks and he never holds his players accountable for their actions.
Yes but if you use the Brad Stevens to Mick Cronin to Jim Boeheim scale, he comes out looking pretty good
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Yes but if you use the Brad Stevens to Mick Cronin to Jim Boeheim scale, he comes out looking pretty good
I'd say he and Cronin are perfect for the city of Cincinnati.
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I’ve never had that impression of Xavier.
He never really took responsibility for his players part in the brawl with Cincy. He then threw Lance Stephenson under the bus while claiming to take the high road after the cronin-macura kerfuffle this year. After the 1st round in the BET this year, he played the victim after some post game trash talk with his team and St. John's. It was clear that several players on his team jumped in to make the situation worse rather than letting their play on the court speak for itself.
Clearly, I'm not a fan.
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Xavier is interesting. They have had a few Title IX type issues with their players. They always seem to handle it appropriately once it comes to light....but it raises the question if some of these issues were known prior to recruitment. And we also don't know how long the issue was present before it came to light. Couple that with the Cincy Brawl (I thought Cronin handled it a lot better than Mack did) and Mack's name coming up in the FBI investigation....I wouldn't call him a clean coach. I'd put him a lot closer to Larry Brown than Brad Stevens.
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Because he wants to try something different? Because they are going to pay him more?
It really isn't inconceivable.
This. Of course.
We actually had this discussion in a different thread a few days ago.
Believe it or not, some people actually like to try something new, they want a different challenge, etc.
I'm not talking to you, sultan, because I know you believe it. But for others ... it's quite conceivable. And understandable. And even normal.
And sure, the money almost certainly would be more ... but so would the pressure. That's what Mack would have to balance.
There's no "wrong" answer here, IMHO.
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Get the money Mack
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I could not disagree with this more. His teams are punks and he never holds his players accountable for their actions.
X has qwickly become my least liked BE team.
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If you want to be a big time program you gotta be willing to put up $3MM a year for your coach.
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Mack going to Louisville would be dumb and dangerous
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Good for him for at least getting a chance. It'll be interesting to see if there is true interest, or if he's just positioning for more money.
If I was a big-time coach and had the chance to coach at MU for $1 million-plus, it would take an absolutely obscene amount of money to get me to leave for another school. Like Bill Gates kinda money. Hell, I'd probably have a hard time truly believing they were actually going to let me get a seat on the bench...for free.
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I'd be in favor of it, only because it is likely to allow Xavier to take a step back and give us an opportunity to return to the top of the conference again.
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Mack going to Louisville would be dumb and dangerous
Pretty sure he knows all the risks.
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Mack going to Louisville would be dumb and dangerous
8-)
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Pretty sure he knows all the risks.
*whoosh*
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It may actually be attractive to Mack that Louisville has problems with the NCAA. He can demand a longer deal and will be given the cushion time to build program again while they serve penalty.
If they throw big money at him the way Ohio State did for Holtman he will go.
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I’ve never had that impression of Xavier.
Reaaaaaaaaaaaally?
They've been borderline UC style punks for years. Fights, aggressive players, and low sportsmanship.
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Reaaaaaaaaaaaally?
They've been borderline UC style punks for years. Fights, aggressive players, and low sportsmanship.
Yup. I'm actually surprised UL is that interested considering this. Figured they would want a squeaky guy.
Zip 'em up.
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So when Mack gets a pay raise of $1.5-3M for his “new challenge”, I for one will certainly believe it was not about the $, and all about the challenge.
It’s funny that these coaches rarely seek “new challenges” that pay less than their current situation.
But, I guess some still believe athletes/coaches when they say it’s not about the $. Unless, of course, the FBI is on the phone—then it maybe too hot in the kitchen.
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It’s funny that these coaches rarely seek “new challenges” that pay less than their current situation.
That’s typically true for most people.
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So when Mack gets a pay raise of $1.5-3M for his “new challenge”, I for one will certainly believe it was not about the $, and all about the challenge.
It’s funny that these coaches rarely seek “new challenges” that pay less than their current situation.
But, I guess some still believe athletes/coaches when they say it’s not about the $. Unless, of course, the FBI is on the phone—then it maybe too hot in the kitchen.
Oh of course its about the money. But I think most people, including coaches, who are compensated well don't go around looking at jobs if they are comfortable where they are.
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Mack's gonna stay as long as dale have 'im, hey?
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So he goes... he gets more money but he also gets 3-4 years (5 according to some scoopers) with low expectations while he builds a program.
I personally don't think he's a good coach and wonder how he recruits, so my fear is that X finds a much better coach - they are definitely available - and becomes a top level threat in the BEAST every year whereas I don't think Mack can keep them at the top.
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Like Buzz, he knows the ACC is where it's at
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So he goes... he gets more money but he also gets 3-4 years (5 according to some scoopers) with low expectations while he builds a program.
I personally don't think he's a good coach and wonder how he recruits, so my fear is that X finds a much better coach - they are definitely available - and becomes a top level threat in the BEAST every year whereas I don't think Mack can keep them at the top.
What?
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So he goes... he gets more money but he also gets 3-4 years (5 according to some scoopers) with low expectations while he builds a program.
I personally don't think he's a good coach and wonder how he recruits, so my fear is that X finds a much better coach - they are definitely available - and becomes a top level threat in the BEAST every year whereas I don't think Mack can keep them at the top.
The Xavier team that was a 1 seed and won the Big East regular season championship? That has had a run of sustained excellence second only to Villanova's since they they joined the Big East. There are much better coaches available?!?!? If they are available, why isn't Louisville going after THEM first? So. Much. Wrong.
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If we had a team seeded #1 in the NCAA and eliminated in the 2nd round I can just hear the howls here on Scoop......
Fire Him!
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The Xavier team that was a 1 seed and won the Big East regular season championship? That has had a run of sustained excellence second only to Villanova's since they they joined the Big East. There are much better coaches available?!?!? If they are available, why isn't Louisville going after THEM first? So. Much. Wrong.
Yeah.
A bad coach doesn't win 68% of his games. A bad coach doesn't finish in the top 3 of the BE 3 times in the past 5 years. A bad coach doesn't get to the NCAAs 8 times in 9 seasons as a head coach.
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*whoosh*
Pretty sure he knew exactly what you were doing, and played along.
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If Mack does go, would that pretty much guarantee getting Louisville in the first game in the NIT next year? They would still try to make a Kansas Louisville final, because it would draw the most viewers, but for the first games I would think they go for the better story. Two former rivals that have a history of playing exciting games, used to play in the same conference and now throw in the Mack to ACC thing. That makes a much better story that MU vs Tenn
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I could not disagree with this more. His teams are punks and he never holds his players accountable for their actions.
Amen. Dislike Mack a great deal. "Attitude reflects leadership."
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Porter Moser to Xavier, Custer2MU?
Nope.
Porter Moser to Xavier, Custer to Xavier in that scenario.
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The Xavier team that was a 1 seed and won the Big East regular season championship? That has had a run of sustained excellence second only to Villanova's since they they joined the Big East. There are much better coaches available?!?!? If they are available, why isn't Louisville going after THEM first? So. Much. Wrong.
Exactly
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If Mack does go, would that pretty much guarantee getting Louisville in the first game in the NIT next year? They would still try to make a Kansas Louisville final, because it would draw the most viewers, but for the first games I would think they go for the better story. Two former rivals that have a history of playing exciting games, used to play in the same conference and now throw in the Mack to ACC thing. That makes a much better story that MU vs Tenn
Tennessee was a 3 seed this year and returns almost everyone. Kansas vs Tennessee would feature two ranked teams so that is the top title game choice. Kansas vs Louisville features the two biggest names so that is still a strong 2nd.
My guess: Marquette vs Kansas and Louisville vs Tennessee
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Tennessee was a 3 seed this year and returns almost everyone. Kansas vs Tennessee would feature two ranked teams so that is the top title game choice. Kansas vs Louisville features the two biggest names so that is still a strong 2nd.
My guess: Marquette vs Kansas and Louisville vs Tennessee
Anyone know when these sort of things are announced? Does it come out with the rest of the non-conference, or does it get announced earlier because its high profile and at MSG?
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Anyone know when these sort of things are announced? Does it come out with the rest of the non-conference, or does it get announced earlier because its high profile and at MSG?
The Maui match ups were announced in July last year.
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Anyone know when these sort of things are announced? Does it come out with the rest of the non-conference, or does it get announced earlier because its high profile and at MSG?
Isn't the preseason NIT in Brooklyn now?
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Isn't the preseason NIT in Brooklyn now?
Yep, my mistake
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Nope.
Porter Moser to Xavier, Custer to Xavier in that scenario.
Porter Moser to Pitt, Custer2MU?
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Yup. I'm actually surprised UL is that interested considering this. Figured they would want a squeaky guy.
Zip 'em up.
Hiring a coach linked to the FBI probe their school is already entrenched in would be an interesting move. But then again it doesn't seem like Louisville gives a f*ck.
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Sounding like a #donedeal.
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is there an XU Scoop equivalent anyone can link to?
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I guess this is just another reminder that it is always about the benjamins.
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is there an XU Scoop equivalent anyone can link to?
http://www.xavierhoops.com/forumdisplay.php?54-Men-s-Basketball
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I though this was an interesting take:
"Interesting how you claim certain coaches I brought up to prove your "Only 6 destination jobs" theory is not accurate are somehow deemed irrelevant by you because they have retired... and yet at the same time you forgot to bring up the two active coaches I've mentioned (Few and Wright) who also poke holes in your 6 destination jobs theory.
Second, I never made the point "Mack Is the Xavier brand." I said the perception is different if he leaves compared to any of the previous X coaches who were brought up... coaches who were neither Xavier graduates nor Xavier players. Mack claimed this was his dream job.
If Mack leaves his alma mater for a university with which he has no affiliation... one that engages in unethical and illegal practices just to get ahead... it would be a shame and it would create the perception that even one of Xavier's own thinks being the coach at Louisville with its tarnished reputation is a better gig than being the coach at his own distinguished alma mater... which proved finishing ranked in the top 5 is possible, winnning the BE tournament regular season title is possible, becoming a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament is possible and landing a top 15 ranked class of recruits is possible).
I am simply saying that if Mack leaves, the perceived status and reputation of X will take a hit (at least temporarily). Maybe it won't be a big hit, but it will change - even if in a small way - how recruits and outsiders and college applicants and even Xavier students and alumni perceive the program and the school. The perception will be that X is not even a destination job for an alumnus. Yet, if Mack stays (and says no to Louisville), Xavier's status and reputation gets a bump (again if only temporarily) and it would create a perception that Xavier has enough of everything a coach needs to be happy and succeed and therefore make it a destination job.
I hope Mack stays, but I also believe a new coach can continue to elevate the program to a higher status should he leave. History has proven as much. But staying makes Mack a hero of sorts... a champion of loyalty... a man perceived as doing a selfless act that would benefit the greater good of others including his alma mater and his community - while at the same time allowing him and his family to stay where they are and live a rich life (figurative and literally) amongst those he cares about and who care for him.
If Mack leaves X and the $3 million a year behind... it suggssts that MFing big cheaters still win in today's world over the small guys who do things the right way...sending the message that big tainted money talks and loyalty walks... right out the door."
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is there an XU Scoop equivalent anyone can link to?
There's already a 30+ page thread about who their next head coach should be....
http://www.xavierhoops.com/forumdisplay.php?54-Men-s-Basketball
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I though this was an interesting take:
"Interesting how you claim certain coaches I brought up to prove your "Only 6 destination jobs" theory is not accurate are somehow deemed irrelevant by you because they have retired... and yet at the same time you forgot to bring up the two active coaches I've mentioned (Few and Wright) who also poke holes in your 6 destination jobs theory.
Second, I never made the point "Mack Is the Xavier brand." I said the perception is different if he leaves compared to any of the previous X coaches who were brought up... coaches who were neither Xavier graduates nor Xavier players. Mack claimed this was his dream job.
If Mack leaves his alma mater for a university with which he has no affiliation... one that engages in unethical and illegal practices just to get ahead... it would be a shame and it would create the perception that even one of Xavier's own thinks being the coach at Louisville with its tarnished reputation is a better gig than being the coach at his own distinguished alma mater... which proved finishing ranked in the top 5 is possible, winnning the BE tournament regular season title is possible, becoming a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament is possible and landing a top 15 ranked class of recruits is possible).
I am simply saying that if Mack leaves, the perceived status and reputation of X will take a hit (at least temporarily). Maybe it won't be a big hit, but it will change - even if in a small way - how recruits and outsiders and college applicants and even Xavier students and alumni perceive the program and the school. The perception will be that X is not even a destination job for an alumnus. Yet, if Mack stays (and says no to Louisville), Xavier's status and reputation gets a bump (again if only temporarily) and it would create a perception that Xavier has enough of everything a coach needs to be happy and succeed and therefore make it a destination job.
I hope Mack stays, but I also believe a new coach can continue to elevate the program to a higher status should he leave. History has proven as much. But staying makes Mack a hero of sorts... a champion of loyalty... a man perceived as doing a selfless act that would benefit the greater good of others including his alma mater and his community - while at the same time allowing him and his family to stay where they are and live a rich life (figurative and literally) amongst those he cares about and who care for him.
If Mack leaves X and the $3 million a year behind... it suggssts that MFing big cheaters still win in today's world over the small guys who do things the right way...sending the message that big tainted money talks and loyalty walks... right out the door."
Money and years. That will tell the tale. Its not about how much someone can succeed, its about dollars and common sense.
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Most interesting thing about what this move says is the (lack of) penalties coming down the pike for Lville
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Mack the Knife, hey?
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Most interesting thing about what this move says is the (lack of) penalties coming down the pike for Lville
Why do you assume that? Mack will get paid either way.
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Most interesting thing about what this move says is the (lack of) penalties coming down the pike for Lville
Unless the contract accounts for that possibility. (Extension of years, increase in UL's buy-out, etc.)
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Also, if you're Xavier, why would you even attempt to match what UL is offering? Sure, give the guy a raise, but they know they have a solid program. They have options available to them. The program is bigger than Mack.
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Why do you assume that? Mack will get paid either way.
What's the difference between the offers? Would be a shame if it was only a few $100k. It's his alma mater, can't do 'em dirty like that. Couple mil and that changes the equation a bit
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Tweet reply, trumping dickie...
I can say for 100 percent certainty that Chris Mack isn't in Louisville right now and won't be in Louisville this afternoon. Deal close, but not totally finished as of 1 p.m.
https://twitter.com/jdemling/status/978681031384543232
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X loses Macura, Blueitt, Kantor and O'Mara. Big, big losses. If they go outside the X family and don't promote Steele, their first assistant, would that relate to any leftover players considering leaving. Almost all programs see that happen, new coach comes in, not familiar with, etc., players leave.
With the above players who have left, X cannot afford to have players like Scruggs and Marshal leave. Big decision time for X.
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Surprised and bummed that it appears Mack is leaving. Big blow to the Big East, IMHO.
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What's the difference between the offers? Would be a shame if it was only a few $100k. It's his alma mater, can't do 'em dirty like that. Couple mil and that changes the equation a bit
Rumors are $4M and he is making $1.7M. Again if you are X, do you break the bank for him? Or do you feel confident enough in your program that you can make a good hire.
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X loses Macura, Blueitt, Kantor and O'Mara. Big, big losses. If they go outside the X family and don't promote Steele, their first assistant, would that relate to any leftover players considering leaving. Almost all programs see that happen, new coach comes in, not familiar with, etc., players leave.
With the above players who have left, X cannot afford to have players like Scruggs and Marshal leave. Big decision time for X.
Big decision time yes. But if they won't break the bank to keep Mack (right move IMO) and show that the program is bigger than one person, the threat of players transferring won't force them into promoting an assistant. They were gonna take a step back next year anyways with the 4 Seniors. I'd go for an outside hire and risk facing more of a rebuild with a higher ceiling. Also Steele may not even want to be a HC, or Mack may take him with to Louisville. Players would leave, but the program would still be strong. Same thing happened when Matta and Miller left. Seems kinda like a stepping stone program hey?
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Call me soft, but I hope he stays. Plus, we need a strong X in the BE and with coaching changes nothing is guaranteed. Honestly, I am completely shocked X has kept it together for so long. X, Creighton and Butler need to remain top 40 programs, IMO for BE to remain big league conference.
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Rumors are $4M and he is making $1.7M. Again if you are X, do you break the bank for him? Or do you feel confident enough in your program that you can make a good hire.
Wow, 4M??? Bye Bye.....
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Butler - while not having reached the extreme high of back-to-back title games - has remained solid post-Stevens. No reason Xavier couldn't follow a similar path; top Ast or small conf coach ready for next step.
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Butler - while not having reached the extreme high of back-to-back title games - has remained solid post-Stevens. No reason Xavier couldn't follow a similar path; top Ast or small conf coach ready for next step.
If Moser goes there and Custer follows I might lose my gotdam mind
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Call me soft, but I hope he stays. Plus, we need a strong X in the BE and with coaching changes nothing is guaranteed. Honestly, I am completely shocked X has kept it together for so long. X, Creighton and Butler need to remain top 40 programs, IMO for BE to remain big league conference.
X has a pretty strong reputation for making the right hire if he does leave.
Agree that the conference needs to be more than just Nova to remain a power conference, but I don't think it matters which teams are in the top 40 as long as the conference has 4-5 of them. SH will drop out of that category next year, but MU will be stronger. If Butler drop off, the conference would still be strong if Gtown can return to relevance. If by some miracle DePaul has a turnaround, that could offset a drop-off in a program like CU or X. It doesn't matter who the teams are as long as the conference has a legit F4 contender, and continues to average 5+ bids per year.
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Butler - while not having reached the extreme high of back-to-back title games - has remained solid post-Stevens. No reason Xavier couldn't follow a similar path; top Ast or small conf coach ready for next step.
I've mentioned it before, but current Winthrop HC Pat Kelsey make a ton of sense. Played for Xavier and was Mack's top assistant.
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Wow, 4M??? Bye Bye.....
Yep, hard to turn down for a family with 3 younger children.
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Also, if you're Xavier, why would you even attempt to match what UL is offering? Sure, give the guy a raise, but they know they have a solid program. They have options available to them. The program is bigger than Mack.
We know we have a solid program also, so what. Coaching hires are always tricky. Mack has been underpaid relative to his peers with successful tenures.
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Rumors are $4M and he is making $1.7M. Again if you are X, do you break the bank for him? Or do you feel confident enough in your program that you can make a good hire.
Yeah I'd let him walk
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Rick Pitino is available.
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Yep, hard to turn down for a family with 3 younger children.
I hate this logic. Raising three young children on $1.7 million or $4 million/year is equally simple. Both are far more than anyone needs to live a decent life and raise three or even six children. But would most people like to make $4 million instead of $1.7 million? Sure, because its more. Your needs have very little to do with that choice.
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7-year deal
https://247sports.com/Article/On-Tuesday-Chris-Mack-informed-his-team-he-has-accepted-the-job-at-Louisville-116749372
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Surprised and bummed that it appears Mack is leaving. Big blow to the Big East, IMHO.
I thought the same when Stevens left Butler.
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I hate this logic. Raising three young children on $1.7 million or $4 million/year are equally simple. Both are far more than anyone needs to live a decent life and raise three or even six children. But would most people like to make $4 million instead of $1.7 million? Sure, because its more. Your needs have very little to do with that choice.
Not about needs as they are obviously well taken care of at $1.7 MM. It’s more about security and the future. In any event hard to turn down when the job itself is really the same.
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Like it or not, the guy has to take the money. I will say it definitely shows that Louisville still believes they are a basketball school. I am very, very impressed that Louisville can get this type of hire under the circumstances.
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He gowne, hey?
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Not about needs as they are obviously well taken care of at $1.7 MM. It’s more about security and the future. In any event hard to turn down when the job itself is really the same.
Not buying that either. Together, my husband and I make a very comfortable (but less than the 1%) combined income and it would take us several years to bring in $1.7 mil. Yet we have somehow managed to put all our kids through college with 0 borrowing and have a mid-7 figure retirement account. And I still think my kids are spoiled rotten!
When there are people out there struggling to make a living wage, I don't want to hear about security and future as a reason for a guy to take a that kind of pay increase when he already has plenty. He can be a basketball coach for a long time. Agree it's gonna set him and his family up, but his security and future are already very well off.
That said, I don't begrudge him taking the job for that salary. Maybe he sees navigating the whole FBI/NCAA thing as a challenge. Maybe he doesn't think Xavier can get to the next level. For whatever reason, a formidable opposing coach has left the Big East. More room for Marquette to move up!
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Not buying that either. Together, my husband and I make a very comfortable (but less than the 1%) combined income and it would take us several years to bring in $1.7 mil. Yet we have somehow managed to put all our kids through college with 0 borrowing and have a mid-7 figure retirement account. And I still think my kids are spoiled rotten!
When there are people out there struggling to make a living wage, I don't want to hear about security and future as a reason for a guy to take a that kind of pay increase when he already has plenty. He can be a basketball coach for a long time. Agree it's gonna set him and his family up, but his security and future are already very well off.
That said, I don't begrudge him taking the job for that salary. Maybe he sees navigating the whole FBI/NCAA thing as a challenge. Maybe he doesn't think Xavier can get to the next level. For whatever reason, a formidable opposing coach has left the Big East. More room for Marquette to move up!
Kind of sounds like you begrudge him......lol
Relax......security is all a relative concept......it's a smart move to more then double your salary ......call it whatever you want......who cares?
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Call me soft, but I hope he stays. Plus, we need a strong X in the BE and with coaching changes nothing is guaranteed. Honestly, I am completely shocked X has kept it together for so long. X, Creighton and Butler need to remain top 40 programs, IMO for BE to remain big league conference.
Definitely would have liked Mack to stick around, but the whole notion of the BE NEEDing a strong X is false. We just NEED a 2nd program (outside of Villanova) to have the level of success that X had over Mack's run... Whether it be Marquette stepping up; Xavier replacing Mack and not skipping a beat; Georgetown finally returning to prominence, etc.
That being said, I don't expect Xavier to fall into the gutter with this coaching change. But, I didn't expect Marquette to miss 4 out of the last 5 tournaments after Buzz, either.
Hopefully Marquette and Xavier can switch roles for the next 5 years.
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$4M per year and with the impending sanctions he may make it to year five of seven before he's expected to have a really good team? Sweet deal.
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Yep, hard to turn down for a family with 3 younger children.
Making less than $2 million a year, Chris Mack was clearly a horrible father, husband and provider. Now, of course, he will instantly become a better one.
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Programs like Xavier (not to mention Creighton, Providence, Seton Hall and Butler) are the difference between a conference like the Big East and the WCC. One is ranked among the 3-4 toughest in the country, year after year. The other is virtually anonymous and ignored apart from Gonzaga.
Exposure and quality of competition matter. Look at all the scheduling discussions here over the past few seasons. That's one of the biggest reasons why schools have migrated up to conferences like the ACC and Big 12, and not the other way around. Nobody ever willingly leaves a power conference and goes back to the MVC, Horizon, A10 or Conference USA.
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Will Mack schedule MU now with a home and home or will he run for the hills like Slick Rick and Mock Turtleneck Mike?
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Only if they didn’t sign a LOI.
there is no such thing as a "LOI."
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Nope.
Porter Moser to Xavier, Custer to Xavier in that scenario.
why would Xavier go after Moser? Before this season his career record at LUC was 89-105 and after this season his conference record is 48-76. A major program like X doesn't take a mid-major coach who caught lightning in a bottle for one season after years of mediocrity.
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It seems like there have been some big departures of Big East coaches across the last decade or so, all with the intent on "trading up." Here's a question: how have they done? Have any won a national championship? Has the grass really been greener? Off the top of my head, we've got:
Thad Matta - left Xavier for USU and had comparatively long run for OSU, made a Final Four; no titles; fired last year (Xavier not in BE at time)
Todd Lickliter - left Butler for Iowa and had three consecutive losing seasons, then fired; not a head coach anymore (Butler wasn't in BE at time)
Sean Miller - great recruiting classes for Arizona but not much to show for it because zero Final Four appearances; recent scandal and may be canned this offseason
Brad Stevens - succeeding with Boston Celtics, no Finals appearances yet
Bert - two tournament appearances with VPI, losses in first round
Chris Holtmann - had a nice year with OSU; TBD
At least from those, no one has won a national championship and only Thad Matta has made a FF appearance (one). Brad Stevens is the most successful but going from college to NBA is not really comparable. Obviously this is about money as much as anything, but in terms of winning, it sure doesn't seem like leaving has delivered anyone to the Promised Land.
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Let's not forget Tanned Tommy...
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Let's not forget Tanned Tommy...
On the topic of coaches that left, without getting too far off topic. The 2019 Maui field was announced and both tanned Tommy and Brent will be there. Be interesting to see what happens when the bracket comes out.
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There's already a 30+ page thread about who their next head coach should be....
http://www.xavierhoops.com/forumdisplay.php?54-Men-s-Basketball
That should be an interesting List.
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It seems like there have been some big departures of Big East coaches across the last decade or so, all with the intent on "trading up." Here's a question: how have they done? Have any won a national championship? Has the grass really been greener? Off the top of my head, we've got:
Thad Matta - left Xavier for USU and had comparatively long run for OSU, made a Final Four; no titles; fired last year (Xavier not in BE at time)
Todd Lickliter - left Butler for Iowa and had three consecutive losing seasons, then fired; not a head coach anymore (Butler wasn't in BE at time)
Sean Miller - great recruiting classes for Arizona but not much to show for it because zero Final Four appearances; recent scandal and may be canned this offseason
Brad Stevens - succeeding with Boston Celtics, no Finals appearances yet
Bert - two tournament appearances with VPI, losses in first round
Chris Holtmann - had a nice year with OSU; TBD
At least from those, no one has won a national championship and only Thad Matta has made a FF appearance (one). Brad Stevens is the most successful but going from college to NBA is not really comparable. Obviously this is about money as much as anything, but in terms of winning, it sure doesn't seem like leaving has delivered anyone to the Promised Land.
Dana Altman has a S16, E8, & F4 at Oregon
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It seems like there have been some big departures of Big East coaches across the last decade or so, all with the intent on "trading up." Here's a question: how have they done? Have any won a national championship? Has the grass really been greener? Off the top of my head, we've got:
Thad Matta - left Xavier for USU and had comparatively long run for OSU, made a Final Four; no titles; fired last year (Xavier not in BE at time)
Todd Lickliter - left Butler for Iowa and had three consecutive losing seasons, then fired; not a head coach anymore (Butler wasn't in BE at time)
Sean Miller - great recruiting classes for Arizona but not much to show for it because zero Final Four appearances; recent scandal and may be canned this offseason
Brad Stevens - succeeding with Boston Celtics, no Finals appearances yet
Bert - two tournament appearances with VPI, losses in first round
Chris Holtmann - had a nice year with OSU; TBD
At least from those, no one has won a national championship and only Thad Matta has made a FF appearance (one). Brad Stevens is the most successful but going from college to NBA is not really comparable. Obviously this is about money as much as anything, but in terms of winning, it sure doesn't seem like leaving has delivered anyone to the Promised Land.
Matta & Miller never coached in the BEast
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Or Lickliter. ;)
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Or Lickliter. ;)
Agreed, or Altman
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Mack coached under Miller, who was implicated in a massive scandal.
Former Xavier players were also associated with the investigation (I believe).
Louisville fires their coach for being under FBI investigation, associated with the same scandal.
Is it really wise to hire your new coach, who is also at least tangentially tied to the same scandal/investigation?
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Gillen———->Prosser
Prosser——->Matta
Matta———->Miller
Miller——-—>Mack
Mack———->?????
X has done a very nice job of replacing their exiting coach, regardless of how that coach did at their new school.
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Not about needs as they are obviously well taken care of at $1.7 MM. It’s more about security and the future. In any event hard to turn down when the job itself is really the same.
His family's future should be totally taken care of - in a very comfortable fashion - after a couple of years at that salary level. He has been at X for 9 years already, and after this season he'd have at least 5 more barring a major scandal.
At this point, it isn't about his family's security or future. It's about the ego boost of having a bigger number.
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Mack coached under Miller, who was implicated in a massive scandal.
Former Xavier players were also associated with the investigation (I believe).
Louisville fires their coach for being under FBI investigation, associated with the same scandal.
Is it really wise to hire your new coach, who is also at least tangentially tied to the same scandal/investigation?
You’re under the impression Louisville cares about these things?
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Mack's wife is from Louisville.
Whether you're making 40K and getting an offer of over double what you're paid or making $1.7M and getting offered over double what you're paid, you're getting offered more than double what you're paid.
Thad Matta is available for hire for Xavier.
The Big East is fine.
Actually, the Big East is far greater than fine.
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It seems like there have been some big departures of Big East coaches across the last decade or so, all with the intent on "trading up." Here's a question: how have they done? Have any won a national championship? Has the grass really been greener? Off the top of my head, we've got:
Thad Matta - left Xavier for USU and had comparatively long run for OSU, made a Final Four; no titles; fired last year (Xavier not in BE at time)
Todd Lickliter - left Butler for Iowa and had three consecutive losing seasons, then fired; not a head coach anymore (Butler wasn't in BE at time)
Sean Miller - great recruiting classes for Arizona but not much to show for it because zero Final Four appearances; recent scandal and may be canned this offseason
Brad Stevens - succeeding with Boston Celtics, no Finals appearances yet
Bert - two tournament appearances with VPI, losses in first round
Chris Holtmann - had a nice year with OSU; TBD
At least from those, no one has won a national championship and only Thad Matta has made a FF appearance (one). Brad Stevens is the most successful but going from college to NBA is not really comparable. Obviously this is about money as much as anything, but in terms of winning, it sure doesn't seem like leaving has delivered anyone to the Promised Land.
Can we please get out of our "Big East is the best" biased bubble? Sometimes coaches leave and do better, sometimes they don't. Yeah, if you're evaluating teams based on championships and final four appearances it's going to look like they should've stayed. Especially Brad Stevens to the Celtics...Just because he doesn't have an NBA finals appearance doesn't mean it wasn't the right move. Yeesh.
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But, I didn't expect Marquette to miss 4 out of the last 5 tournaments after Buzz, either.
Already counting on us missing next season?
Because the first miss in the "4 out of the last 5" was with Buzz at the helm.
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The X board is saying that Mack met with Lville in NYC during the BE tournament.
They're also saying that Mack left for $1M more (not $2.3M)
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The X board is saying that Mack met with Lville in NYC during the BE tournament.
They're also saying that Mack left for $1M more (not $2.3M)
Shady. You gotta be ten toes in the boat thinkin' nothing but title at that point in the season with the position they were in.
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Would like to see X promote from within and hire Travis Steele .
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Shady. You gotta be ten toes in the boat thinkin' nothing but title at that point in the season with the position they were in.
Pretty ugly if true.
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Chris's wife is from Louisville. He is offered at least a million more and likely guaranteed. We would all take the offer. I have known Chris since he had red hair and wore blue cutoff sweatpants every day. He loves Xavier; he has a ton of integrity. Xavier is not immune from the NCAA scandal from the sins of the past........ Pat Kelsey would be a great coach.
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The X board is saying that Mack met with Lville in NYC during the BE tournament.
They're also saying that Mack left for $1M more (not $2.3M)
That’s pretty messed up
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The X board is saying that Mack met with Lville in NYC during the BE tournament.
They're also saying that Mack left for $1M more (not $2.3M)
I seriously doubt that happened. His agent could have talked with their AD, but I really doubt that Mack would have ever put himself in that position.
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I seriously doubt that happened. His agent could have talked with their AD, but I really doubt that Mack would have ever put himself in that position.
https://www.youtube.com/v/WEWA3xQ7pOA
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For a college basketball coach Louisville is the the Holy Grail. They are in the ACC. They are a four year community college. They care way more about sports than academics. They will spend crazy money to win and break any rules to win. They have not won a championship in 30 plus years and are desperate to compete with UK's success.
UofL is a top 5 job for any coach. Can't blame Mack. Will he have the chance to go the NCAA in the next 5 years? Doubt it, but he is going to get very rich and 99% of coaches would have taken the job if offered.
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White trash - “haven’t won a championship in 30 years?”
They beat Michigan a few years ago for a title with pitino.
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White trash - 30 years? they beat Michigan a few years ago for a title with pitino.
Show me the banner and the trophy.
Crean 2 IU = Mack 2 Louisville.
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Show me the banner and the trophy.
::)
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why would Xavier go after Moser? Before this season his career record at LUC was 89-105 and after this season his conference record is 48-76. A major program like X doesn't take a mid-major coach who caught lightning in a bottle for one season after years of mediocrity.
You totally missed my point. I wasn't saying Moser was going to Xavier, that was being said by the poster I was replying to. My point was that if somehow Moser got the Xavier job, Custer wouldn't likely be MU bound, he much more likely follow Moser to Xavier.
Argue against that if you want.
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In my uninformed opinion, "Follow the "Book"
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His family's future should be totally taken care of - in a very comfortable fashion - after a couple of years at that salary level. He has been at X for 9 years already, and after this season he'd have at least 5 more barring a major scandal.
At this point, it isn't about his family's security or future. It's about the ego boost of having a bigger number.
I don't understand your point. Would you say the same thing when an exec moves to a larger corporation for more money> Just an ego trip for them too?
Many, many people work at a job and give the best they have with the plan of moving on to bigger and better things. That is human nature. It happens all the time in thousands of companies.
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First causality of the coaching change. Talented Ivy League transfer Evan Bourdreaux is reopening his recruitment.
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You totally missed my point. I wasn't saying Moser was going to Xavier, that was being said by the poster I was replying to. My point was that if somehow Moser got the Xavier job, Custer wouldn't likely be MU bound, he much more likely follow Moser to Xavier.
Argue against that if you want.
Sadly, I agree. He could probably bring Custer and Townes with him if he went there. Pair them with Gates/Marshall/Goodin/Jones/Scruggs and eff me they'd be really good right away
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I don't understand your point. Would you say the same thing when an exec moves to a larger corporation for more money> Just an ego trip for them too?
Many, many people work at a job and give the best they have with the plan of moving on to bigger and better things. That is human nature. It happens all the time in thousands of companies.
I was responding to a specific post that stated that he did this for his family’s financial security. Did you read that post? My very clear response was that this had nothing to do with financial security. Simple.
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Chris's wife is from Louisville. He is offered at least a million more and likely guaranteed. We would all take the offer. I have known Chris since he had red hair and wore blue cutoff sweatpants every day. He loves Xavier; he has a ton of integrity. Xavier is not immune from the NCAA scandal from the sins of the past........ Pat Kelsey would be a great coach.
Cincy to Louisville is 99 miles. 1.5 hours. If his old lady missed ma and pa so much, its just a quick hop in the Lexus across the river.
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Chris's wife is from Louisville. He is offered at least a million more and likely guaranteed. We would all take the offer. I have known Chris since he had red hair and wore blue cutoff sweatpants every day. He loves Xavier; he has a ton of integrity. Xavier is not immune from the NCAA scandal from the sins of the past........ Pat Kelsey would be a great coach.
No we would not all take that offer.
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We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation. We say it over and over.
Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.
I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.
Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones.
We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville. That’s an issue. It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football. That EVERYTHING the Big East is against.
To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.
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For a college basketball coach Louisville is the the Holy Grail. They are in the ACC. They are a four year community college. They care way more about sports than academics. They will spend crazy money to win and break any rules to win. They have not won a championship in 30 plus years and are desperate to compete with UK's success.
UofL is a top 5 job for any coach. Can't blame Mack. Will he have the chance to go the NCAA in the next 5 years? Doubt it, but he is going to get very rich and 99% of coaches would have taken the job if offered.
What doth it profit a (program) to gain the whole world, yet lose (its) soul in the process?
O wait, Louisville has cheated badly for a long, long, time. As Trent Reznor sang, "Got no soul to sell."
Their whole existence is flawed.
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I was responding to a specific post that stated that he did this for his family’s financial security. Did you read that post? My very clear response was that this had nothing to do with financial security. Simple.
Maybe he did it for Latrell Sprewell's family!
Seriously though ...
ESPN is reporting it's $4M per year, and they probably got the figure from Mack's agent.
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Maybe he did it for Latrell Sprewell's family!
Seriously though ...
ESPN is reporting it's $4M per year, and they probably got the figure from Mack's agent.
That's fine. He has the right to be as greedy as he wants. Seriously.
I just get irritated at the ridiculous comments like "he did it for security" (when he had one of the most secure jobs in sports), or "we would all take that offer" (when some of us would not). That's all.
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We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation. We say it over and over.
Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.
I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.
Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones.
We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville. That’s an issue. It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football. That EVERYTHING the Big East is against.
To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.
Can you face reality plz? can we all? The big east is NOT the best b ball conference and my god I cringe at every big east commercial where they say it’s the best one. Ohio st is a MASSIVE sports program with 100s of thounsads of fans and tons of media attention etc etc. Butler is what?.. a small private school with a small arena and not much else. butler will not bring in huge recruits Ohio st can. Must I go on? It’s just reality here. Can’t blame these coaches for leaving for these types of big time schools. The big east can certainly be a top 3 or 4 conference that has respect and can bring in some top talent but plz it’s never going to be the ACC or the big ten. There are just to many massive sports programs etc
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That's fine. He has the right to be as greedy as he wants. Seriously.
I just get irritated at the ridiculous comments like "he did it for security" (when he had one of the most secure jobs in sports), or "we would all take that offer" (when some of us would not). That's all.
Please. It is real easy for someone who is not offered the money to say that they would not take it. Why is it greedy? He is taking what he is offered. It happens all the time. Capitalism.
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We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation. We say it over and over.
Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.
I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.
Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones.
We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville. That’s an issue. It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football. That EVERYTHING the Big East is against.
To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.
I would argue that we're the best basketball only conference, but 2nd to 3rd best at basketball.
By pretty much any measure the Ohio State and Louisville jobs are better jobs than X or Butler. I would consider Ohio State a top 20 job and Louisville a top 10. It's not a problem to lose coaches to those jobs.
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You totally missed my point. I wasn't saying Moser was going to Xavier, that was being said by the poster I was replying to. My point was that if somehow Moser got the Xavier job, Custer wouldn't likely be MU bound, he much more likely follow Moser to Xavier.
Argue against that if you want.
I find it amusing that not only is that your method of backtracking, but you’ve already committed a kid who is still playing as a transfer to MU.
Can’t wait for your take on Marvin Bagley to MU. He hasn’t declared for the draft yet!
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Please. It is real easy for someone who is not offered the money to say that they would not take it. Why is it greedy? He is taking what he is offered. It happens all the time. Capitalism.
I could make 25% more tomorrow...and in the process I would have to move my family, leave a workplace that I've been with since college graduation, and hope like hell the new place works out. Mack just left a lot of good for only one good reason, IMHO, and that's an easier path to a championship. 25% extra means little to me and I make far less then him. He just left his roots and a place he could have been a legend for life because he wants to win it all, and couldn't do so with what he probably felt was the best talent he could ever have at X. If I were him I would take the chance for one championship at X over 5 at UL...but that's just me. Hope it plays out as well for him as it did TC. Nothing against the guy...but I would like to see it cost coaches who leave the BEAST.
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I could make 25% more tomorrow...and in the process I would have to move my family, leave a workplace that I've been with since college graduation, and hope like hell the new place works out. Mack just left a lot of good for only one good reason, IMHO, and that's an easier path to a championship. 25% extra means little to me and I make far less then him. He just left his roots and a place he could have been a legend for life because he wants to win it all, and couldn't do so with what he probably felt was the best talent he could ever have at X. If I were him I would take the chance for one championship at X over 5 at UL...but that's just me. Hope it plays out as well for him as it did TC. Nothing against the guy...but I would like to see it cost coaches who leave the BEAST.
If he thinks it’s impossible to win a title at Xavier after a season in which he won the conference championship outright of the conference that very well may include the soon to be national champion and had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament he needs his head checked.
He did do it for one reason. Well 28 million actually. Oh and the 7 years part.
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That's fine. He has the right to be as greedy as he wants. Seriously.
I just get irritated at the ridiculous comments like "he did it for security" (when he had one of the most secure jobs in sports), or "we would all take that offer" (when some of us would not). That's all.
Really? You wouldn't take a 135% raise and $4M/year? Really?
It's not like he was already making $3.5M/year and this is an inconsequential bump. His salary is more than doubling to move an hour-and-a-half away and take over a program that will give him any resource he wants.
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If he thinks it’s impossible to win a title at Xavier after a season in which he won the conference championship outright of the conference that very well may include the soon to be national champion and had a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament he needs his head checked.
He did do it for one reason. Well 28 million actually. Oh and the 7 years part.
agree on the first part...can't comprehend moving my family and losing relationships for a ~30% raise...and like i said, i'm not leaving $3 mil for $4. if X wasn't willing to give him 7 years...that's on them. in the end, i think it has a lot more to do with ego than $$$.
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Can you face reality plz? can we all? The big east is NOT the best b ball conference and my god I cringe at every big east commercial where they say it’s the best one.
What BE commercial says that?
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Really? You wouldn't take a 135% raise and $4M/year? Really?
It's not like he was already making $3.5M/year and this is an inconsequential bump. His salary is more than doubling to move an hour-and-a-half away and take over a program that will give him any resource he wants.
if rumors were true that he was offered $3M for the same length of contract....i would gladly turn that down if it meant i didn't have to move my family and leave a workplace that gave me a chance, a place i love, and a place i want to hang around the rest of my life. i don't know...TC seems so much happier than mark few though...
my gut is it's all about ego.
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if rumors were true that he was offered $3M for the same length of contract....i would gladly turn that down if it meant i didn't have to move my family and leave a workplace that gave me a chance, a place i love, and a place i want to hang around the rest of my life. i don't know...TC seems so much happier than mark few though...
You can't seriously think we can understand how these people feel or what makes them happy.
Also, if I worked in a field where 2 bad recruiting classes get you fired, I would think about risk/reward differently.
Just because we want to project that every coach should want to build a career at a non-blue blood doesn't make it true.
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if rumors were true that he was offered $3M for the same length of contract....i would gladly turn that down if it meant i didn't have to move my family and leave a workplace that gave me a chance, a place i love, and a place i want to hang around the rest of my life.
Not to mention to go to an organization with a slimy reputation.
I knew it was time to leave one job when I was embarrassed to say where I worked. I would never intentionally accept a job at a place like that.
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Please. It is real easy for someone who is not offered the money to say that they would not take it. Why is it greedy? He is taking what he is offered. It happens all the time. Capitalism.
Don’t assume I haven’t been there - I have. And I turned it down because my employer had always been good to me and I felt a sense of loyalty.
Like I said, it’s Mack’s right to choose...but let’s not make the mistake of assuming we would all make the same choice.
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Really? You wouldn't take a 135% raise and $4M/year? Really?
It's not like he was already making $3.5M/year and this is an inconsequential bump. His salary is more than doubling to move an hour-and-a-half away and take over a program that will give him any resource he wants.
Yep, really.
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That's fine. He has the right to be as greedy as he wants. Seriously.
I just get irritated at the ridiculous comments like "he did it for security" (when he had one of the most secure jobs in sports), or "we would all take that offer" (when some of us would not). That's all.
Agreed. It's completely fine he took it, that's his prerogative. But "security" is a hysterical reason when it's a $4m per year offer vs. $3m per year offer, after making $1m+ per for several years, while millions of people in our country live in abject, crippling, generation-spanning poverty.
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Don’t assume I haven’t been there - I have. And I turned it down because my employer had always been good to me and I felt a sense of loyalty.
Like I said, it’s Mack’s right to choose...but let’s not make the mistake of assuming we would all make the same choice.
You are a wise man. Grass isn’t always greener. More money definitely doesn’t always equate to more happiness - assuming one has an existing comfortable standard of living.
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if rumors were true that he was offered $3M for the same length of contract....i would gladly turn that down if it meant i didn't have to move my family ...
Isn't his wife from Louisville, so maybe the moving his family part wasn't met with a lot of resistance.
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I feel like there could be a hundred reasons that we don’t know about that made Mack want to move. I would say there’s more in the equation than money.
Maybe he started memorizing the presidents in order and decided now was the right time to move like Buzz did.
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I would argue that we're the best basketball only conference, but 2nd to 3rd best at basketball.
By pretty much any measure the Ohio State and Louisville jobs are better jobs than X or Butler. I would consider Ohio State a top 20 job and Louisville a top 10. It's not a problem to lose coaches to those jobs.
But how much better?
Chris Mack got a 1 seed out of Xavier. Then X offers him 3 million and he decides to leave his Alma Mater for 4 million?
Tony Bennett wouldn't leave UVA for Wisconsin right now under those terms. I hate this look. I don't begrudge Mack for leaving. He made a business decision. I'm just disappointed that the business doesn't tip our way.
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Dana Altman has a S16, E8, & F4 at Oregon
He's a hall of fame caliber coach don't you know?
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He's a hall of fame caliber coach don't you know?
#legend?
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We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation. We say it over and over.
Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.
I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.
Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones.
We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville. That’s an issue. It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football. That EVERYTHING the Big East is against.
To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.
Kentucky and Duke over Louisville and Ohio State?
So, you're going with past glory trumping current earnings, I guess.
For overall Athletic Department earnings, Ohio State is way up there. At least for basketball, Louisville has to close to the top, as well.
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I hope that X said "$4mil?!?...listen, Chris, we like you, but we're going no higher than $3M. We can certainly afford $4M, but we don't believe that you're worth that much. "
I hope that was the scenario, and not "damn...$4M? We can't possibly afford that."
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I find it amusing that not only is that your method of backtracking, but you’ve already committed a kid who is still playing as a transfer to MU.
Can’t wait for your take on Marvin Bagley to MU. He hasn’t declared for the draft yet!
I'm not often flabbergasted on Scoop, but wow, you're lack of understanding even remotely what you talking about is, well flabbergasting.
I was the one pointing out that Custer wasn't likely to come to MU. Read the posts you're commenting on! Please stay out of conversations you can't comprehend.
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Kentucky and Duke over Louisville and Ohio State?
So, you're going with past glory trumping current earnings, I guess.
For overall Athletic Department earnings, Ohio State is way up there. At least for basketball, Louisville has to close to the top, as well.
Past glory?
UK, 2012 NC
Duke, 2015 NC
Louisville, 1986 NC
Ohio State, 1960 NC
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What BE commercial says that?
As someone that watches everything on FS1, etc, I have not seen that commercial.
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Past glory?
UK, 2012 NC
Duke, 2015 NC
Louisville, 1986 NC 2013 NC (allegedly)
Ohio State, 1960 NC
Fixed. Strippers don't take away the Natty.
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Fixed. Strippers don't take away the Natty.
Well officially they do.
But I think the greater point is that it's not just about championships. It's also about what athletic departments have $$$ and are willing to invest in basketball. Louisville and Ohio State are near the top of that list.
This really doesn't reflect poorly on anyone involved. Mack and Holtmann left for objectively better jobs and more money. Most coaches would make that decision.
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Well officially they do.
But I think the greater point is that it's not just about championships. It's also about what athletic departments have $$$ and are willing to invest in basketball. Louisville and Ohio State are near the top of that list.
This really doesn't reflect poorly on anyone involved. Mack and Holtmann left for objectively better jobs and more money. Most coaches would make that decision.
I believe Duke & Kentucky were 1 and 2 this year in basketball expenses. Calling them "past glory"?
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I believe Duke & Kentucky were 1 and 2 this year in basketball expenses. Calling them "past glory"?
I'll concede that my past glory comment was over the top. Really TAMU put the case much better than I did. The point that I failed to make well (and that I still believe to be true) is that Duke and Kentucky aren't clearly above Ohio State and Louisville is terms of job attractiveness which is the argument you seemed to be making. IIRC, Louisville has the second largest arena for NCAA basketball behind only Syracus and they didn't have to contribute a penny to build it. Ohio State, again IIRC, has the largest revenue of any NCAA Athletic Department. There is definitely resource comparability, if not tradition comparibility. So, I believe that Big East coaches moving onto those programs is more embarassing than a Big East coach going to Kentucky or Duke as you argued.
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I think the years are as important as the money here. These deals are always guaranteed unless fired for cause, so that's $28M guaranteed. Even if X was willing to go up to 3M/year, it would take 10 more years at X for Mack to beat that. Makes me wonder if we overestimate Mack's security and relationships in the athletic department at X just because he was an alum. Looking at their board (I know, grain of salt) there seem to be a lot of hard feelings about his entertaining other jobs, etc. Not saying he was on the hot seat or anything, but Mack's position at X might not have been as stable or comfortable as we think.
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What BE commercial says that?
It’s a commercial advertising the big east tourney where one of the be coaches is narrating over it and says the big east is the best basketball conference this is why we are here or some crap
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https://youtu.be/WNIXLLKK_z4
Here is the link to the big eat commercial claiming it’s overtly the best b ball conference in the country lol
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Slick Rick was pulling in a cool $7.8 including $2.25 from Adidas. I am sure there is a lot more $$$ involved. JayBee is on it I am sure.
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The BEast is one of the top 3 or 4 BB conferences, annually. That changes from year to year. The best teams in BEast, Villanova and Xavier, can compete with the elites of the ACC, Big10-13 and Big 12. Meaning Duke, Virginia, Ks., NC, MSU, the OSU, etc. Hell, even bottom dweller, St. Johns beat Duke this year.
So do not sell the conference short.
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People take other jobs for a number of reasons. Phil Jackson used to say that a coach can only stay in a place for so many years before change is necessary. Maybe more than doubling his salary was Mack's main reason. Maybe having a new challenge was. Maybe the opportunity to build a new championship era at a blueblood is something he had always wanted to do.
Had he stayed at X, there would have been nothing wrong with that. There aren't many coaches who would have turned down this kind of Louisville opportunity, but there no doubt are a few. The guy at Davidson could have left for many higher-paying jobs over the years (though not a blueblood, that I know of). Probably Mark Few has been courted by higher-paying places. Some are so content and challenged where they are that they have absolutely no interest in leaving.
Leaving X for Louisville, I can't believe people are arguing that it was a "stupid" move, especially having absolutely no clue about his reasons for it.
I made two major decisions during my professional career.
In the first, I made a mostly lateral move from Minneapolis to Chicago within the same company. I did so knowing that the cost of living was significantly higher in Chicago and that my wife would have to get a part-time job to make ends meet. (She had been a stay-at-home mom, a decision we had made together and that had been working well.) I did so knowing how nice a place Minny is to raise a family. I did so because I wanted the challenge of working in an environment that would give me more national exposure.
In the second, I left my company for my dream job at another company. I got a pay raise, but it wasn't a crazy-higher amount of money. The motivation was that it let me do what I had dreamed of doing since I was 16. It was a great job ... until a different company bought the company that hired me and laid me off after 11 years. I was 48 years old. I have effectively been "semi-retired" since then.
Had I stayed in Minny, I would still be employed in that same job I had back in the early-90s. It would have been a decent living in a nice place. Had I transferred to Chicago but stayed with the company, I would still be employed in that same job. It would have been an OK living in a place I liked. Although we've done OK financially, I no doubt would have a bigger nest egg if I had been employed these last 9 years.
But I have absolutely no regrets. None. How many people get to do their dream job for 11 years? Plus, leaving my profession (or having it leave me) has led to me getting new challenges, mostly in coaching, something I never had time to do before.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have done it the exact same way.
Maybe Louisville (or one of the similar dozen jobs) is Mack's dream job. I don't know why it bothers a single Scooper that he would pursue that.
I say, "Good for him!" And I wish him good fortune ... against everybody but Marquette.
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I believe Duke & Kentucky were 1 and 2 this year in basketball expenses. Calling them "past glory"?
I'm not a mind reader but how I read his post wasn't saying that Duke and Kentucky were bad... But was saying that your were too focused on past championships to see how good the Ohio State and Louisville jobs are
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https://youtu.be/WNIXLLKK_z4
Here is the link to the big eat commercial claiming it’s overtly the best b ball conference in the country lol
No truck stop league here. ;)
Truth be told, it is one of the best conferences in the country. Jerry Palm had the Big 12 and Big East as 1A & 1B.
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I could make 25% more tomorrow...and in the process I would have to move my family, leave a workplace that I've been with since college graduation, and hope like hell the new place works out. Mack just left a lot of good for only one good reason, IMHO, and that's an easier path to a championship. 25% extra means little to me and I make far less then him. He just left his roots and a place he could have been a legend for life because he wants to win it all, and couldn't do so with what he probably felt was the best talent he could ever have at X. If I were him I would take the chance for one championship at X over 5 at UL...but that's just me. Hope it plays out as well for him as it did TC. Nothing against the guy...but I would like to see it cost coaches who leave the BEAST.
Basketball is a sport.
Sport, at this level, is about winning championships.
For every coach, winning a championship is easier at Louisville is easier than at X.
It's fascinating how many people in this thread know what is best for Mack and his family. I will defer to him to make that decision.
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Basketball is a sport.
Sport, at this level, is about winning championships.
For every coach, winning a championship is easier at Louisville is easier than at X.
It's fascinating how many people in this thread know what is best for Mack and his family. I will defer to him to make that decision.
Exactly. It's laughable all these posters who claim they would turn down the money.
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Basketball is a sport.
Sport, at this level, is about winning championships.
For every coach, winning a championship is easier at Louisville is easier than at X.
It's fascinating how many people in this thread know what is best for Mack and his family. I will defer to him to make that decision.
It's dumb and dangerous to let him make that decision. Scoop knows better, always.
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Plus, I'll through this out there. Xavier was never in the same conference as Louisville like Marquette was. MU alums have a dislike of Loserville because they were our rivals in two different conferences over a lengthy period of time. Xavier not so much.
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Isn't his wife from Louisville, so maybe the moving his family part wasn't met with a lot of resistance.
$2M/year is about how much it would take me to move closer to my wife's family.
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$2M/year is about how much it would take me to move closer to my wife's family.
(loudly laughing at my desk)
Good call.
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$2M/year is about how much it would take me to move closer to my wife's family.
Good point, but it is $14M more over 7 years. Win or Lose he can retire at a young age.
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I think the years are as important as the money here. These deals are always guaranteed unless fired for cause, so that's $28M guaranteed.
For my own amusement, I am picturing this conversation happening at some point:
Louisville BOD: Because of the disappointing performance of the basketball team, we are letting you go, and we aren't paying you the rest of your contract.
Mack: You have to! I get paid unless I get fired for cause! What's the cause?
Louisville BOD: Cause you didn't win enough games!
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For my own amusement, I am picturing this conversation happening at some point:
Louisville BOD: Because of the disappointing performance of the basketball team, we are letting you go, and we aren't paying you the rest of your contract.
Mack: You have to! I get paid unless I get fired for cause! What's the cause?
Louisville BOD: Cause you didn't win enough games!
(http://news.3yen.com/wp-content/images/WAKA-WAKA-FONZIE.jpg)
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Exactly. It's laughable all these posters who claim they would turn down the money.
And it's even more laughable all these posters who think they know what other posters would do....
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The key issue here from the Big East point of view is that Xavier hires a quality replacement. I think the odds of that happening are high. There is long term value for the Big East in the Xavier basketball program. I am confident they will make a good decision on the next guy.
We saw last year that Butler was able to bring in an alum who is a good young coach to replace a the previous coach who was signed away from huge money. Their new coach got them to the tournament (and won a game) and also signed up a blue chip mid season transfer in his first season. Butler has long term value in their program and that is an asset for the conference for the conference as well.
It is a competitive world out there, the Blue Bloods and Big Money Athletic Schools are going to spend what they need to find the right coaches. The next step for the Big East is to get their pay scale up across the board. Right now the dollars ,even after paying taxes , are big enough to lure people away.
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The key issue here from the Big East point of view is that Xavier hires a quality replacement. I think the odds of that happening are high. There is long term value for the Big East in the Xavier basketball program. I am confident they will make a good decision on the next guy.
We saw last year that Butler was able to bring in an alum who is a good young coach to replace a the previous coach who was signed away from huge money. Their new coach got them to the tournament (and won a game) and also signed up a blue chip mid season transfer in his first season. Butler has long term value in their program and that is an asset for the conference for the conference as well.
It is a competitive world out there, the Blue Bloods and Big Money Athletic Schools are going to spend what they need to find the right coaches. The next step for the Big East is to get their pay scale up across the board. Right now the dollars ,even after paying taxes , are big enough to lure people away.
Relative to Jordan at Butler, we will have to see how he does without Martin and Wideman. They were really the linchpins for Butler this past season with Martin getting the key buckets and overall explosiveness while Wideman gave them a physical look with a lot of toughness. We shall see.
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
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And it's even more laughable all these posters who think they know what other posters would do....
It's an interesting question. Approximately 18 years ago, I changed jobs and got a very significant raise - in the neighborhood of 75%. It was huge for our family, and was a prestigious job. I was profoundly unhappy. After five years, I took a significant pay cut to get away. After two years, I moved again. I've been in my current job for about 11 years now. I really like my job and the people I work with. I'm not sure what it would take to lure me away. It would have to be a huge increase...say 200% at least...to even get me to listen at this point. And even then, it would need to be an amazing opportunity. Candidly, I really don't think there is anything that I am qualified to do that would pay me enough to get me to change jobs. But, I realize this is a very personal decision. But the sheer amount of money at issue in Mack's situation changes the dynamic quite a bit. If he goes and it's a bad decision, he can retire. I wouldn't have that luxury, so a bad decision would be far more problematic for me.
I'd love to see Mack's contract. Obviously, the most concerting thing there would be NCAA action. I wonder if he negotiated an out based on that. But, if I were Louisville, I'd be asking, "do you want the guaranteed cash, or do you want the escape clause if the NCAA brings the ban hammer? You can't have both."
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Relative to Jordan at Butler, we will have to see how he does without Martin and Wideman. They were really the linchpins for Butler this past season with Martin getting the key buckets and overall explosiveness while Wideman gave them a physical look with a lot of toughness. We shall see.
Agreed. Way too early to tell about Jordan.
But as other posters have noted, Butler and X both have done excellent jobs through multiple coaching changes, not just over a few years but over decades. Likely not a coincidence.
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I love Jordan! He will be great at Butler.
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
Butler and Creighton I agree was a roll but X was a surer bet to be top 25 than all but us GTown and Nova at that point.
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
MU & Georgetown back on the upswing to take their rightful places with Villanova atop the conference. It's all good baby, X & Butler can take a step back as they should.
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EFR
Think you might be reaching a bit by saying MU and GU will fill in the void of X and Butler backing up a bit. I do love how many on here are just optimistic by nature. I don't get it, but I like it.
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
Butler has proven to be surprisingly resilient when it comes to hires. 6 of their last 7 coaches took teams to the tournament going back to Barry Collier. The only exception was the bizarre Brandon Miller story. I keep expecting them to fall off and they keep overachieving. Until proven otherwise, I trust them to make the right hire and expect Jordan will keep them competitive on a regular basis.
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Butler has proven to be surprisingly resilient when it comes to hires. 6 of their last 7 coaches took teams to the tournament going back to Barry Collier. The only exception was the bizarre Brandon Miller story. I keep expecting them to fall off and they keep overachieving. Until proven otherwise, I trust them to make the right hire and expect Jordan will keep them competitive on a regular basis.
I'll be more worried when Butler has to replace Collier as AD.
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I'll be more worried when Butler has to replace Collier as AD.
Definitely a fair concern.
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Definitely a fair concern.
Barry Collier is Butler basketball. He continues to do a remarkable job.
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2018/03/14/butler-basketball-exceeds-others-expectations-lavall-jordans-first-year/423969002/
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I am not confident that Butler is going to keep the level of success moving forward. The odds of converting with another coaching change is long, IMO. I am concerned about Butler and X taking steps backwards and the affect it will have on the BE. It was my concern when BE came about and I was wrong, to this point. I have always felt betting on Butler, Creighton and X to be top 25 programs was a big roll of the dice.
I share your concern. The main thing that gives me hope is that all 3 schools have strong fan bases and are clearly committed to their programs. That doesn't guarantee success of course, but it increases the likelihood.
Honestly, I'm far more worried about DePaul and St. John's than any of those programs. They obviously keep us in the biggest media markets in the country and give us teams to beat more often than not, but their commitment to the programs is debatable.
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I share your concern. The main thing that gives me hope is that all 3 schools have strong fan bases and are clearly committed to their programs. That doesn't guarantee success of course, but it increases the likelihood.
Honestly, I'm far more worried about DePaul and St. John's than any of those programs. They obviously keep us in the biggest media markets in the country and give us teams to beat more often than not, but their commitment to the programs is debatable.
The bolded statement is also very debatable
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The bolded statement is also very debatable
I was careful not to say always.
Even though we have been hot and cold over the last decade, we are still well over .500 against both.
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Herman
Nice piece on Jordan, but does not change my opinion. As I stated, I have been wrong in my fears on three teams I noted and hope that continues. My gut says sooner or later Butler slips up and goes back to being Butler, which for years looked like Loyola.
MU is a ball school and have struck out half the time on hires. I hope MU is smarter than Butler in long haul, and if that is true, Butler hits a pothole one of these times. Same holds true at X. As for Creighton, I don’t get that program’s success at all. I think their coach is a major dud.
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It's dumb and dangerous to let him make that decision. Scoop knows better, always.
I was kinda shocked that he never consulted with us.
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MU & Georgetown back on the upswing to take their rightful places with Villanova atop the conference. It's all good baby, X & Butler can take a step back as they should.
Just curioud--what evidence do you have (other than opinion) that MU...is on the upswing to take ..a place with Villanova atop the conference"? We are a far cry from Villanova.
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Just curioud--what evidence do you have (other than opinion) that MU...is on the upswing to take ..a place with Villanova atop the conference"? We are a far cry from Villanova.
We lose one starter and a back of the bench player and bring in new players that are on par with or better than what most others have coming in. Most of our peers are losing a lot more
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Nice piece on Jordan, but does not change my opinion. As I stated, I have been wrong in my fears on three teams I noted and hope that continues. My gut says sooner or later Butler slips up and goes back to being Butler, which for years looked like Loyola.
Well, Butler has been strong since 1997, so Butler being Butler too most is winning.
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Herman
Nice piece on Jordan, but does not change my opinion. As I stated, I have been wrong in my fears on three teams I noted and hope that continues. My gut says sooner or later Butler slips up and goes back to being Butler, which for years looked like Loyola.
MU is a ball school and have struck out half the time on hires. I hope MU is smarter than Butler in long haul, and if that is true, Butler hits a pothole one of these times. Same holds true at X. As for Creighton, I don’t get that program’s success at all. I think their coach is a major dud.
Butler has made the NCAA tournament 15 out of the last 20 years. NIT 3 out of the 5 they didn't make it. They play in an iconic fully renovated fieldhouse in a very good city. Their program is here to stay.
Creighton has a long history and tradition of basketball success. 12 out of last 20 years in the NCAA and in NIT 6 out of 8 they didn't make it. They play in a beautiful 18,500 seat NBA style arena that is sold out , with fans in the seats, even for the cupcakes. Their coach has a long history of success and experience. Their program is here to stay as well.
X has a long history and tradition of basketball success. They made the NCAA 17 out of the last 20 years and the NIT 2 out of the 3 they didn't . They play in a beautiful on campus arena that is sold out. They are here to stay as well.
Butler , Creighton and Xavier are central to the success of the Big East as currently configured and will be well into the future . They have healthy programs with huge fan interest. That is what college basketball is all about.
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Butler has made the NCAA tournament 15 out of the last 20 years. NIT 3 out of the 5 they didn't make it. They play in an iconic fully renovated fieldhouse in a very good city. Their program is here to stay.
Creighton has a long history and tradition of basketball success. 12 out of last 20 years in the NCAA and in NIT 6 out of 8 they didn't make it. They play in a beautiful 18,500 seat NBA style arena that is sold out , with fans in the seats, even for the cupcakes. Their coach has a long history of success and experience. Their program is here to stay as well.
X has a long history and tradition of basketball success. They made the NCAA 17 out of the last 20 years and the NIT 2 out of the 3 they didn't . They play in a beautiful on campus arena that is sold out. They are here to stay as well.
Butler , Creighton and Xavier are central to the success of the Big East as currently configured and will be well into the future . They have healthy programs with huge fan interest. That is what college basketball is all about.
I tend to agree that all three programs are strong and relevant. And, as others have said, they are not the BE programs I worry about the most.
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Herman
These programs have had a nice run and BE benefited from it. They are perennial tier two programs and will trend that way in the future. If MU can maintain top 25 program, I can assure you these donkeys have no chance.
Just because the young guns know these stiffs as being legit, history says otherwise. No chance these three are top 25 in a decade.
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Creighton has a long history and tradition of basketball success. 12 out of last 20 years in the NCAA and in NIT 6 out of 8 they didn't make it. They play in a beautiful 18,500 seat NBA style arena that is sold out , with fans in the seats, even for the cupcakes. Their coach has a long history of success and experience. Their program is here to stay as well. .
In fairness, if Marquette was in Omaha, we’d have 18,500 corn-fed butts in seats every game too. But Milwaukee has this thing people call “stuff” they can do, and stuff they do.
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Herman
These programs have had a nice run and BE benefited from it. They are perennial tier two programs and will trend that way in the future. If MU can maintain top 25 program, I can assure you these donkeys have no chance.
Just because the young guns know these stiffs as being legit, history says otherwise. No chance these three are top 25 in a decade.
I go back a long way and ,yes many years ago, these three teams were in the second tier compared to MU. Today they are solid peers of ours. Think of it this way, there are lots of girls in high school that were homely, but there allways a few that when you see them at the 10 year reunion are Playmate of the Year material and you saw wow if only I knew... That is what happened to these three schools. They grew up and got pretty.
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In fairness, if Marquette was in Omaha, we’d have 18,500 corn-fed butts in seats every game too. But Milwaukee has this thing people call “stuff” they can do, and stuff they do.
Attendance...We do pretty well. But we can be better. If you're on the fence about attending a given MU home game next year, get off of it and go. Nothing beats being there. Camaraderie of friends and family, the best basketball arena in the world, a super fun-to-watch MU offense which is soon to be able to defend well too ("uh, oh... Happy learned how to putt!").
As much as I love what Loyola is achieving, MU82 and others are correct when they say this is a "blip on the radar" in Chicago sports annals. Chicago is a great American city, but there is a bit of a "soulless" nature here when it comes to college hoops... as it relates to Windy City sports identity. The hierarchy is Bears, Cubs/// Bulls, Hawks///Sox. College basketball here may as well be harness racing. Let's not talk like Chicagoans. I love that Milwaukee has so much to do, but you'll never hear diehard Warrior fans discuss alternatives to attending MU games. Do those things other nights.
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Herman
These programs have had a nice run and BE benefited from it. They are perennial tier two programs and will trend that way in the future. If MU can maintain top 25 program, I can assure you these donkeys have no chance.
Just because the young guns know these stiffs as being legit, history says otherwise. No chance these three are top 25 in a decade.
27 tournament appearances since 1983, 8 sweet 16s, 3 elite 8s. Either it's been 35yrs of you saying Xavier will trend back as a tier two team or you haven't realized how much they've changed since Al used to make fun of them.
History helps for bragging rights and prestige but has little to no bearing on the future when the 17yr olds you recruit have only ever known the program as good.
To put it another way, I'm sure there were programs in 77 that were saying Marquette hit gold with Al but now that he's retiring they've historically been a tier 2 team and will trend back to that. But 40yrs later and we've still managed to be pretty darn good (20 appearances, 6 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, a FF)
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27 tournament appearances since 1983, 8 sweet 16s, 3 elite 8s. Either it's been 35yrs of you saying Xavier will trend back as a tier two team or you haven't realized how much they've changed since Al used to make fun of them.
History helps for bragging rights and prestige but has little to no bearing on the future when the 17yr olds you recruit have only ever known the program as good.
To put it another way, I'm sure there were programs in 77 that were saying Marquette hit gold with Al but now that he's retiring they've historically been a tier 2 team and will trend back to that. But 40yrs later and we've still managed to be pretty darn good (20 appearances, 6 sweet 16s, 2 elite 8s, a FF)
This sure seems like a reasonable and logical take to me.
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This sure seems like a reasonable and logical take to me.
Yeah, so what the heck is it doing on Scoop? ;)
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Piper
I fully understand how much things have changed since Al laughed at X. I have stated many times that I would be the happiest guy in MKE if MU's program resembled X's current program. I cannot stress enough how impressive their success has been, plus their ability to survive coaching changes.
All that said, I have been around for all 27 of those NCAA appearances have a different perspective on it. X was not in the national spotlight for many of the 80's and 90's NCAA appearances. They were playing in mid tier conference and many folks did not take the program seriously, including me. Over the past 15 years or so, they have been in the national spotlight and kudo's to them.
My point is that they either have the smartest admin and athletic department or some luck has been involved. Likely a combination of both. Of course I am biased, but if MU cannot sustain a top 25 program, I believe that X is one bad hire from a mighty fall. We have seen at MU how a bad hire can change the trajectory of a program and how hard it is to rebuild. Buzz Williams, by many fan's standard, was the most successful coach in the post Al era and one last season took MU down big time. To the point that many feel Wojo had a tougher road to navigate than KO.
So, if MU's second most successful coach can dismantle a program on the rise with a single season, a bad hire can take top 25 program back to the dark ages. The way I look at, X is not a great job for many guys. They have tough competition in their own city and recruit against the Big 10 and the BE. If I were an X fan, I would be fearing going back to the laughable Muskie's at this time.
Lastly, there is no one pulling harder for X to maintain than me. I want them to maintain for the BE, because every kid only knows X as being good and that is a positive. Furthermore, I want them to succeed because if they can be top 25 program year in and year out, there is zero excuse for MU not to achieve the same success.
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We have seen at MU how a bad hire can change the trajectory of a program and how hard it is to rebuild. Buzz Williams, by many fan's standard, was the most successful coach in the post Al era and one last season took MU down big time. To the point that many feel Wojo had a tougher road to navigate than KO.
Anyone who says that never walked through the old Gym, watched the Dukiet years, or knew the roster that KO inherited. KO inherited Tony Smith for a year, but nowhere near the facilities, budget or Admin support that Wojo walked in to.
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Norm
As you know, the debate has been beaten to death on here. While I am in complete agreement with you, those on the other side have equally strong conviction in that. IMO, it is an excuse mechanism to defend Wojo's four years at MU. But, that is my take on it.
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Piper
I fully understand how much things have changed since Al laughed at X. I have stated many times that I would be the happiest guy in MKE if MU's program resembled X's current program. I cannot stress enough how impressive their success has been, plus their ability to survive coaching changes.
All that said, I have been around for all 27 of those NCAA appearances have a different perspective on it. X was not in the national spotlight for many of the 80's and 90's NCAA appearances. They were playing in mid tier conference and many folks did not take the program seriously, including me. Over the past 15 years or so, they have been in the national spotlight and kudo's to them.
My point is that they either have the smartest admin and athletic department or some luck has been involved. Likely a combination of both. Of course I am biased, but if MU cannot sustain a top 25 program, I believe that X is one bad hire from a mighty fall. We have seen at MU how a bad hire can change the trajectory of a program and how hard it is to rebuild. Buzz Williams, by many fan's standard, was the most successful coach in the post Al era and one last season took MU down big time. To the point that many feel Wojo had a tougher road to navigate than KO.
So, if MU's second most successful coach can dismantle a program on the rise with a single season, a bad hire can take top 25 program back to the dark ages. The way I look at, X is not a great job for many guys. They have tough competition in their own city and recruit against the Big 10 and the BE. If I were an X fan, I would be fearing going back to the laughable Muskie's at this time.
Lastly, there is no one pulling harder for X to maintain than me. I want them to maintain for the BE, because every kid only knows X as being good and that is a positive. Furthermore, I want them to succeed because if they can be top 25 program year in and year out, there is zero excuse for MU not to achieve the same success.
Your concerns about Xavier are no different than almost every other program in the country. On top of that, tons of solid programs rebound from stretches of bad years. Hell-look at Michigan and Villanova throughout the 90's and early 00's. It'll take more than one bad hire by X to unravel 20 years of sustained success as long as there is commitment to their program by the fans and admin.
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One bad hire can cause a 5 year hiccup. Then the question becomes whether the team can regain former stature.
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Lazer
Buzz unraveled MU in three months. Don't fool yourself. You are correct on other programs, but they usually are elite athletic programs.
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Tower
Blue bloods can rebound from a five year hiccup. The X's, Marquette's of the world can see a five year hiccup last far longer.
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Lazer
Buzz unraveled MU in three months. Don't fool yourself. You are correct on other programs, but they usually are elite athletic programs.
You preach how quickly programs can turnaround. If there's a commitment to basketball, a committed fanbase, and a history/tradition of success, one bad hire won't be the demise of a program.
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Tower
Blue bloods can rebound from a five year hiccup. The X's, Marquette's of the world can see a five year hiccup last far longer.
This is why I don't get your concern about X. With the exception of a handful of programs, most programs (even the good ones) are in the same position.
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It's much easier for a program to correct the mistakes of a bad hire in a conference like the Big East. Look at Nova for example. Steve Lappas left the program decidedly mediocre and Wright had them contending in a few years. It takes multiple bad hires and poor support from the administration for the program to completely fall apart. (Hello DePaul!!)
If you're stuck in a one bid conference, it can be a struggle however.
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Lazer,
You are correct that I preach that programs can turnaround quickly. How is that accomplished? By having a coach that recruit stud basketball players. Hence, the importance of having stud players. If X had a five year hiccup, do you really think it would be easy for them to recruit studs to play there as it is today?
By most people's opinion, MU has a commitment to basketball, committed fanbase, history/tradition of success and have little on court success for last five years. What if next year looks a lot like this year? Than it is six years of limited (no success, IMO) success on the court. Some on here believe Wojo should get the axe if that happens. Then it is a new assistant coach taking over and everyone is giving him a five year pass. Before you know it, a decade has passed and no success.
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Is Villanova a blueblood? Semi-blueblood? X-ish? Marquette-ish?
From 1997-2004 - spanning the last 4 years under Steve Lappas and the first 3 under Jay Wright, Nova was 123-100, had 1 season with a winning conference record and made 1 NCAA tourney appearance (losing in the first round).
In, say, 2002-03, there weren't many people saying, "Wow, what a program!" This despite the fact that it had been a pretty darn good program - and even an NCAA champion - under Massimino.
Starting in Wright's 4th season - 2004-05 - they began looking like the fine program they are today. But even so, there have been hiccups - most notably going 13-19 in 2011-12, which came in the middle of a 4-season stretch in which they couldn't make it past the first weekend of the NCAA tourney.
Was Lappas a "bad hire"? He led Nova to a 75-25 record with 3 NCAA bids in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons?
Was Wright a great hire? Didn't look like it 3 years in.
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Lazer
My concern for X is simple, I do not believe the BE is strong enough top to bottom to have a top tier program go backwards. When new BE started I expected it to be a bust, and I was wrong. In watching the BE this year, I was not overly impressed and believe benefited from SOS due to playing Nova and X twice. The middle 4-6 teams were not very good and without SOS, it might have 4-5 team dancing this year. If X does not provide top tier value, than BE goes backwards. That is my concern. Other than that, X can implode for all I care.
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Big Easts issue is lack of a true blue blood. Top to bottom I'd argue were one of the top two conferences. But we lack strength at the top. Nova had carried us since the league started. The middle is strong compared to other conferences, the bottom is strong, but the top is weak.
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Big Easts issue is lack of a true blue blood. Top to bottom I'd argue were one of the top two conferences. But we lack strength at the top. Nova had carried us since the league started. The middle is strong compared to other conferences, the bottom is strong, but the top is weak.
I mean....traditionally? Nova has got to be concerned a blue blood at this point, and the BE had 2 #1 seeds this year. I think the fact that only 2 teams spent the majority of the year in the top 25 hurt recognition a bit, but several teams were just outside the top 25.
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J5
The middle was ranked or close to being ranked due to SOS. The middle was 4-5 teams that were good, not great. I just think the BE needs a strong upper side of the conference every year. In addition, it helps if it is the same 3-4 teams.
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Is Villanova a blueblood? Semi-blueblood? X-ish? Marquette-ish?
From 1997-2004 - spanning the last 4 years under Steve Lappas and the first 3 under Jay Wright, Nova was 123-100, had 1 season with a winning conference record and made 1 NCAA tourney appearance (losing in the first round).
In, say, 2002-03, there weren't many people saying, "Wow, what a program!" This despite the fact that it had been a pretty darn good program - and even an NCAA champion - under Massimino.
Starting in Wright's 4th season - 2004-05 - they began looking like the fine program they are today. But even so, there have been hiccups - most notably going 13-19 in 2011-12, which came in the middle of a 4-season stretch in which they couldn't make it past the first weekend of the NCAA tourney.
Was Lappas a "bad hire"? He led Nova to a 75-25 record with 3 NCAA bids in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons?
Was Wright a great hire? Didn't look like it 3 years in.
More and more, I've become convinced that a program outside of blue blood status pretty much needs to have a coach in place for 10+ years to really start having sustained high level success. At that point the brand is in place, the coach knows what he wants on the recruiting trail to fill gaps/roles, compund intrerest starts paying dividends. Need some interim successes before the 10-year mark to build on, but the real fun starts 10 years in. That's why I really want Wojo to be here past the K retirement. If that event is 5 years away, it'll be at the 9/10 year mark, just when it's about to get good. If he leaves the process has to start all over again.
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Lazer,
You are correct that I preach that programs can turnaround quickly. How is that accomplished? By having a coach that recruit stud basketball players. Hence, the importance of having stud players. If X had a five year hiccup, do you really think it would be easy for them to recruit studs to play there as it is today?
By most people's opinion, MU has a commitment to basketball, committed fanbase, history/tradition of success and have little on court success for last five years. What if next year looks a lot like this year? Than it is six years of limited (no success, IMO) success on the court. Some on here believe Wojo should get the axe if that happens. Then it is a new assistant coach taking over and everyone is giving him a five year pass. Before you know it, a decade has passed and no success.
Goose
I don't think your concern needs to be specific for X. The Big East will continue to be cyclical, and likely will always be that way. The Big East needs Marquette, Georgetown, St. John's to build and replace X. X will be down for some time as they rebuild. If no one can step up, the conference will suffer.
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The most ambiguous term that gets thrown around constantly on this board is blue blood. Who, exactly, are the blue bloods? Maybe Duke, UNC, Kansas...UCLA? No program in the country is clearly in a stronger position than Villanova right now. The Big East's strength is not defined by "blue bloods" but rather the overall strength of the programs top to bottom. Of the 10 schools, all of them have what they need to be successful and competitive with any other program, with the possible exception of DePaul which has systemic problems.
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PTM
You are correct, to some degree. Only issue, no one has proven to have ability to step up. It does not need to be X, but I do not see the schools noted moving to X status anytime soon. Thus, a backwards BE upper tier school hurts the overall conference.
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The most ambiguous term that gets thrown around constantly on this board is blue blood. Who, exactly, are the blue bloods? Maybe Duke, UNC, Kansas...UCLA? No program in the country is clearly in a stronger position than Villanova right now. The Big East's strength is not defined by "blue bloods" but rather the overall strength of the programs top to bottom. Of the 10 schools, all of them have what they need to be successful and competitive with any other program, with the possible exception of DePaul which has systemic problems.
Totally agree with the underlined.
Regarding the term “blue blood,“ it’s kind of like “middle class.“ Everybody uses them, but there is no consensus about what they really mean....
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The most ambiguous term that gets thrown around constantly on this board is blue blood. Who, exactly, are the blue bloods? Maybe Duke, UNC, Kansas...UCLA? No program in the country is clearly in a stronger position than Villanova right now. The Big East's strength is not defined by "blue bloods" but rather the overall strength of the programs top to bottom. Of the 10 schools, all of them have what they need to be successful and competitive with any other program, with the possible exception of DePaul which has systemic problems.
No brainer Blue bloods are UNC, Kentucky, Duke and Kansas.
Others with great history but probably a step below.....UCLA, Louisville, Michigan State and IU(yes IU is still considered a premier program even with less then stellar results for a long period of time).
Nova certainly would deserve to be in the conversation if they win another Championship.
Look at who gets the one and dones.......those are typically the blue bloods.....those that can reload every season no matter how many kids they lose to the NBA.
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PTM
You are correct, to some degree. Only issue, no one has proven to have ability to step up. It does not need to be X, but I do not see the schools noted moving to X status anytime soon. Thus, a backwards BE upper tier school hurts the overall conference.
10 years ago people would have laughed pretty hard if you had said that Georgetown has no ability to reach the status of Xavier anytime soon.
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The most ambiguous term that gets thrown around constantly on this board is blue blood. Who, exactly, are the blue bloods? Maybe Duke, UNC, Kansas...UCLA? No program in the country is clearly in a stronger position than Villanova right now. The Big East's strength is not defined by "blue bloods" but rather the overall strength of the programs top to bottom.
Totally agree with this.
Outside the obvious few - and UCLA ain't one of 'em, and neither is Indiana - Villanova is as bluebloody as anybody.
In the 14 seasons since Wright first made the NCAAs, Nova is 368-119 (an average record of 26-9), with 13 NCAA appearances, 1 NC, 2 other FF, 1 E8 and 2 S16.
Win it all again this season, that's 2 titles in 3 years - along with all the other goodies. Plus, it's a classy, clean program (that we know of).
So I don't know what the "rules" are for bluebloodedness, but ...
If there is such a thing as the "blueblood ladder," Villanova is one rung lower than Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas. And that's it. Period.
To me, it's impossible to reason that Indiana won 3 titles from 1976-87 and therefore that's a blueblood but Nova, Louisville and Michigan State aren't.
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No brainer Blue bloods are UNC, Kentucky, Duke and Kansas.
Others with great history but probably a step below.....UCLA, Louisville, Michigan State and IU(yes IU is still considered a premier program even with less then stellar results for a long period of time).
Nova certainly would deserve to be in the conversation if they win another Championship.
Look at who gets the one and dones.......those are typically the blue bloods.....those that can reload every season no matter how many kids they lose to the NBA.
Yes, I meant to include Kentucky. UConn is as much of a blue blood as your second tier teams - 4 national titles in the last 20 years.
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UCONN is a blueblood
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UCONN is a blueblood
At this point? Disagree.
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Again, depends on definition.
UConn is as much a blueblood as IU and UCLA, probably more.
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UCLA is absolutely a blueblood.
UConn has been a very program—nowhere near a blueblood, IMO.
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I don't consider UConn a blue blood, but if they are, they're hanging by a thread. Kinda like UCLA and IU a number of years back...
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UCLA is absolutely a blueblood.
UConn has been a very program—nowhere near a blueblood, IMO.
4 titles and the 09 final four in 20 years and you're saying they aren't a blue blood?
That's more titles than Kansas and certainly more success than every other program over that stretch.
Now that's because I think you can be a blue blood for a period and lose that status. Maybe you don't believe that?
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Uconn was 1 of those schools that had great success but was never really considered a blue blood.
Now that Calhoun is gone and they are in a crappy conference they certainly aren't in that category......if they were they would be getting 5 stars every year.......they aren't.
Again follow the recruits......they will tell you who the blue bloods are.....UCLA still recruits tons of 5 star kids even with mediocre results.....'being a blue blood blood is about more then continued excellence.....if that was the only standard then Michigan State would be 1.....but they have always been a step behind.
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4 titles and the 09 final four in 20 years and you're saying they aren't a blue blood?
That's more titles than Kansas and certainly more success than every other program over that stretch.
Now that's because I think you can be a blue blood for a period and lose that status. Maybe you don't believe that?
I think you made my point.
UConn had a very good—better than KU. However, the highest level recruits were still picking KU over UConn.
Again, very solid program, but not a blueblood.
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I think you made my point.
UConn had a very good—better than KU. However, the highest level recruits were still picking KU over UConn.
Again, very solid program, but not a blueblood.
Yep
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Seems to me a school that hasn't won a championship in 23 years (UCLA) is kind of a stretch to call a blueblood. And for IU, it has been 31 years.
They've been good on and off over the ensuing years, and they still get some 5-star recruits. But every high-major level kid being recruited today was born well after either team last won the title.
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This is my point, there is no definition. Michigan State doesn't have the level of historical success or current brand power to qualify with those other schools. Are they any better off right now than, say, Florida?
UCLA has by far the best history and still carries a lot of brand power even though the program has had some missteps.
As of right now, Villanova is a top 5 program. And until 2 days ago Xavier was borderline top 10.
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Pure blue bloods? Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and Kansas. (History and current dominance)
Old Money? Indiana and UCLA (History but lost the dominance)
Next Tier? Louisville, UConn, Michigan State, Arizona, Villanova, Syracuse
Don't think anyone else qualifies for consideration at this point. Louisville, Arizona, and UConn may soon lose their next tier status due to sanctions/conference realignment.
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I think TAMU lis is pretty spot on. Probably several others could be added to next tier, but pretty much spot on, IMO.
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On the point about recruiting and developing players, I looked at basketball reference to get NBA draft picks by school since 1998. Pretty much backs up what we've been saying but still interesting (these are just the schools I pulled, not a full ranking):
Kentucky - 38
Duke - 35
UCLA - 30
Kansas - 29
UNC - 28
UConn - 21
Michigan St - 16
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Pure blue bloods? Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and Kansas. (History and current dominance)
Old Money? Indiana and UCLA (History but lost the dominance)
Next Tier? Louisville, UConn, Michigan State, Arizona, Villanova, Syracuse
Don't think anyone else qualifies for consideration at this point. Louisville, Arizona, and UConn may soon lose their next tier status due to sanctions/conference realignment.
Never understood the Zona and Cuse love no more success than say Georgetown
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What are people's thoughts on UNLV. One of the dominant programs of the 90's, but dropped off the table when Tarkanian left and was in a non power conference. Definitely a blue blood of the 90s, but could not sustain success. I see a lot of similarities between them and Uconn, although Uconn had significantly more success under Calhoun, and some of that even carried over to Ollie. Both made critical mistakes, UNLV with problems with the NCAA due to drugs among other things, and Uconn with selling their soul to football.
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Seems to me a school that hasn't won a championship in 23 years (UCLA) is kind of a stretch to call a blueblood. And for IU, it has been 31 years.
They've been good on and off over the ensuing years, and they still get some 5-star recruits. But every high-major level kid being recruited today was born well after either team last won the title.
Interesting way to look at it... who has been a blue blood in HS recruits'/transfer elgible players' lifetimes (1996 onward)
UConn: 4 championships
Duke: 3
UNC: 3
Kentucky: 3
Florida: 2
Villanova: 1 (maybe 2 soon)
MSU: 1
Arizona: 1
Syracuse: 1
Louisville (it happened, I saw it with my own 2 eyes): 1
Kansas: 1
Maryland: 1
UConn should be a new age blue blood hands down... but they added football and couldn't join up with the New BEast. As-is in the AAC... they're just not.
Duke
UNC
Kentucky
Kansas (12 consecutive B12 reg season titles in addition to)
Those 4 without question
Villanova & MSU have the most claim to be added to that list. MSU sustained success, iconic coach, several final fours in addition to the title. But they have a program overhang with the allegations surrounding, and Izzo is getting old. If Nova takes the title this year, they're definitely the 5th modern blue blood, no questions asked.
Florida hasn't proven it past Donovan yet.
Arizona could have been considered... but they might be toast for a while. Same with Louisville... will reserve judgememnt until Mack proves otherwise. Cuse needs to prove it beyond Boeheim.
Maryland not a chance in hell.
IU & UCLA do not factor into the conversation.
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Never understood the Zona and Cuse love no more success than say Georgetown
Consistency. Cuse has been a top 20 program since the 1970s, Arizona since the 1980s. Most other programs have had down long down periods but the Orange and Wildcats just keep chugging away.
Georgetown was dominant in the 80s, possibly the best team of that time period. They were nobody before that, decent in the 90s, and have been pretty blah in the 2000s, especially in recent years.
All IMHO of course.
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What are people's thoughts on UNLV. One of the dominant programs of the 90's, but dropped off the table when Tarkanian left and was in a non power conference. Definitely a blue blood of the 90s, but could not sustain success. I see a lot of similarities between them and Uconn, although Uconn had significantly more success under Calhoun, and some of that even carried over to Ollie. Both made critical mistakes, UNLV with problems with the NCAA due to drugs among other things, and Uconn with selling their soul to football.
Could say Arkansas was one of those temp bloods as well under Nolan richardson
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Consistency. Cuse has been a top 20 program since the 1970s, Arizona since the 1980s. Most other programs have had down long down periods but the Orange and Wildcats just keep chugging away.
Georgetown was dominant in the 80s, possibly the best team of that time period. They were nobody before that, decent in the 90s, and have been pretty blah in the 2000s, especially in recent years.
All IMHO of course.
Which I agree with but I mean most that success hasn't amounted to final fours and championships which are all that's looked at when considering blue bloods (at least that I usually hear compared)
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Pure blue bloods? Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and Kansas. (History and current dominance)
Old Money? Indiana and UCLA (History but lost the dominance)
Next Tier? Louisville, UConn, Michigan State, Arizona, Villanova, Syracuse
Don't think anyone else qualifies for consideration at this point. Louisville, Arizona, and UConn may soon lose their next tier status due to sanctions/conference realignment.
Perfectly summarized.
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Could say Arkansas was one of those temp bloods as well under Nolan richardson
Yeah, I thought about those too. I think the problem with UNLV and Arkansas is that they only won one title, even though they were iconic teams. On that note what about Michigan, especially if they win it or at least make the final this year?
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Are we really having this discussion about "what constitutes a blue blood" again?
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Blue bloods to me are ones that turn the needle. So, there are only two that really turn the needle. It's Duke and Kentucky.
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Blue bloods to me are ones that turn the needle. So, there are only two that really turn the needle. It's Duke and Kentucky.
Turn the needle?
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Turn the needle?
It's a saying in tv ratings. Massive ratings.
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Blue bloods to me are ones that turn the needle. So, there are only two that really turn the needle. It's Duke and Kentucky.
UNC & KU don't turn the needle?
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Yeah, I thought about those too. I think the problem with UNLV and Arkansas is that they only won one title, even though they were iconic teams. On that note what about Michigan, especially if they win it or at least make the final this year?
Michigan doesn't get any special status if they win the title. That would be two titles in 29 years on only their 5th Final Four since the (officially three). Not exactly the sign of an elite program.
UNLV and Arkansas didn't have sustained success or even enough success to fit "temp blue blood" status. Three Final Fours for UNLV (87, 90, 91) and one title, only two final fours for Arkansas (94 and 95) and only one title. Neither has sniffed the Final Four since. Not too much different than Maryland, with two final fours (01, 02) and one title.
As for Georgetown, 5 Final Fours in history (43, 82, 84, 85 and 2007 - national title appearances in all but 2007) and 30 NCAA tourney appearances. Recent history keeps them from being among the "next tier" but they are right up there.
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UNC & KU don't turn the needle?
They do, but not to the level of Kentucky & Duke do. UNC and Kansas is the next level behind UK & Duke.
CBS/TBS would have wanted Duke to beat Kansas and it's not even close.
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They do, but not to the level of Kentucky & Duke do. UNC and Kansas is the next level behind UK & Duke.
CBS/TBS would have wanted Duke to beat Kansas and it's not even close.
Interesting... I certainly trust Mr. Nielsen on this.
Do you have a needle turner list ranked highest to lowest? would be interested to see where MU and other BEast teams fall.
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I'm inclined to align pretty closely with what TAMU posted on this.
In my opinion, any definition of "blue blood" that excludes North Carolina is immediately suspect.
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Yeah, I thought about those too. I think the problem with UNLV and Arkansas is that they only won one title, even though they were iconic teams. On that note what about Michigan, especially if they win it or at least make the final this year?
Michigan is pretty close to the level right beneath blue blood IMHO. I think what holds them back is some of the sanctions from their hey day.
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First of all, I think it's "move" the needle. We can call those teams the needle movers.
Kansas, Duke, Kentucky and UNC all wear blue but probably have red blood.
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Pure blue bloods? Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and Kansas. (History and current dominance)
Old Money? Indiana and UCLA (History but lost the dominance)
Next Tier? Louisville, UConn, Michigan State, Arizona, Villanova, Syracuse
Don't think anyone else qualifies for consideration at this point. Louisville, Arizona, and UConn may soon lose their next tier status due to sanctions/conference realignment.
zags have had a lot of recent success, but still yet another level down.
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Interesting... I certainly trust Mr. Nielsen on this.
Do you have a needle turner list ranked highest to lowest? would be interested to see where MU and other BEast teams fall.
I wouldn't add the Big East to the list, national list because the schools are small. Not a big alumni base around the country. I would say in numbers I have seen over the years, Butler does very well. TV likes them. It a reason why you see them on CBS almost every year. Marquette does ok, if they win like during the 2011 thru 2013, ratings did well.
Winning matters of course. Rankings matter for TV. People love watching ranked teams. (Of course Ball at UCLA was strong and Young at Oklahoma, ESPN pushes really hard on lottery picks in the last four years.
Networks love Duke & Kentucky! The next would be North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville, Michigan, Arizona, Syracuse. Then most Big Ten schools, UCLA, Notre Dame and Florida.
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I wouldn't add the Big East to the list national list because the schools are small. Not a big alumni base around the country. I would say in numbers I have seen over the years, Butler does very well. TV likes them. It a reason why you see them on CBS almost every year. Marquette does ok, if they win like during the 2011 thru 2013, ratings did well.
Winning matters of course. Rankings matter for TV. People love watching ranked teams. (Of course Ball at UCLA was strong and Young at Oklahoma, ESPN pushes really hard on lottery picks in the last four years.
Networks love Duke & Kentucky! The next would be North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State, Indiana, Louisville, Michigan, Arizona, Syracuse. Then most Big Ten schools, UCLA, Notre Dame and Florida.
Interesting. Thanks!
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Interesting. Thanks!
Highest viewership for the title game since 1999.
Duke-Wisconsin in 2015, 28.26M
Duke-UConn in 1999, 26.3M
Duke-Arizona in 2001, 23.97M
Duke-Butler in 2010, 23.94M
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Michigan is pretty close to the level right beneath blue blood IMHO. I think what holds them back is some of the sanctions from their hey day.
yeah, two final fours since 1993, eight NCAA tourney appearances in the last 20 (with an 11-year gap) years and one outright Big Ten regular-season title since 1986 definitely merits being on the cusp of "blue blood." LOL.
Wisconsin is far closer to "blue blood" than Michigan, even if they win the tourney this year.
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I'll concede that my past glory comment was over the top. Really TAMU put the case much better than I did. The point that I failed to make well (and that I still believe to be true) is that Duke and Kentucky aren't clearly above Ohio State and Louisville is terms of job attractiveness which is the argument you seemed to be making. IIRC, Louisville has the second largest arena for NCAA basketball behind only Syracus and they didn't have to contribute a penny to build it. Ohio State, again IIRC, has the largest revenue of any NCAA Athletic Department. There is definitely resource comparability, if not tradition comparibility. So, I believe that Big East coaches moving onto those programs is more embarassing than a Big East coach going to Kentucky or Duke as you argued.
Texas A&M is #1 in revenue. Texas #2. Ohio State #3
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Exactly. It's laughable all these posters who claim they would turn down the money.
There is short term money and long term money. This is not laughable at all.
He can be at X for the rest of his career potentially. He may not succeed at Louisville and be out before the 7 years. The expectations are much different. If that were to happen, he would have made more money staying where he is at. Impossible to predict the future, but it isn't a laughable argument that could be made.
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We go nuts all day on social media saying we’re the the best basketball conference in the nation. We say it over and over.
Jay Wright stands up and agrees and then walks the walk.
I’d we want this to be true, other schools need to live up.
Back to back summers where the Big Ten & ACC reminded us we’re stepping stones.
We didn’t lose coaches to Kentucky or Duke but Ohio State & Louisville. That’s an issue. It’s saying that to win you need to be at a craptier school with football. That EVERYTHING the Big East is against.
To believe this best conference propaganda I need to either see 3 S16 teams or a coach stand up and say no thanks.
Ohio State and Louisville, two of the top 15 basketball programs of all time. Why is that a big deal?
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Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State. That gets overlooked a ton. From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put. No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters. In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want. This is simply not true. Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left. While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that. His departure was unique, to say the least.
Jay Wright has turned down overtures from other colleges and even the NBA. Again, that doesn't fit the narrative that the Big East is in danger long-term, or that the Big East schools are at a disadvantage to P5 schools. Big East coaches that have been hired away (Crean - IU, Mack - UL, Holtmann - OSU) left for top-15 basketball jobs in the whole country. Hardly a lateral move.
Are Big East coaches impervious from taking more prestigious jobs? Of course not. The reality is that the Big East is not know for hiring away proven winners from other programs. They promote assistants (Holtmann), they hire alums (Ewing, Mullin, Jordan) or they hire up-and-comers (Wojo, Willard, Cooley, Wright). In the case of DePaul (retread) and Creighton (Iowa State), those can be categorized as exceptions.
Until the day comes where Big East coaches get hired away to coach at places like Washington State, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Clemson, etc., I wouldn't place too much concern on Mack leaving representing a huge disadvantage the conference has at retaining coaches. If anything, blue blood programs hiring Big East coaches should speak volumes as to the success and consistency BE programs have in hiring head coaches.
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yeah, two final fours since 1993, eight NCAA tourney appearances in the last 20 (with an 11-year gap) years and one outright Big Ten regular-season title since 1986 definitely merits being on the cusp of "blue blood." LOL.
Wisconsin is far closer to "blue blood" than Michigan, even if they win the tourney this year.
First of all, I said on the cusp of being the level under blue blood. Not on the cusp of being a blue blood.
History my good friend. Gotta look at the whole history of a program.
Michigan was one of the most dominant teams of the 60s and 70s making the Elite 8 6 times...losing once to Charlotte, 4 times to a blue blood, and once to the Warriors. They had another dominant run in the late 80s and early 90s including a national championship. They've had a bunch of All Americans and top 10 draft picks, and made the Final Four 8 times, tied for 9th most of any school. Of non-blue bloods (UNC, UK, UCLA, Duke, KU, IU) they are 4th in Final Four appearances (Ohio State, Louisville, and Michigan State).
Now as you pointed out, that was followed up by an awful run in the early 2000s. Coach Beilien has corrected that and has taken Michigan the tourney in 8/10 years, made the Sweet 16 4 times, Elite 8 3 times, Final Four twice, national championship game once....and is now favored to go to the national championship again. If they continue on this path, yeah I think they belong in the tier below a blue blood. One of the top 15 programs in college basketball history.
And you want to bring up the Badgers? Their one championship was during WWII. They had a 47 year tournament drought from 1947-1994. Since 2000? Yes, they've been once of the most dominant teams in basketball. 18 tournament appearances, 10 sweet 16s, 4 elite 8s, 3 Final 4s, 1 national runner ups. But that doesn't make up for near 50 years of irrelevancy.
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Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State. That gets overlooked a ton. From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put. No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters. In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want. This is simply not true. Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left. While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that. His departure was unique, to say the least.
Couple things:
Greg McDermott didn't turn down OSU. There was never an offer. Just a power play on Creighton by McD.
Buzz did not take a pay cut. VT paid him well. Base salary is not the only thing to look at in a contract.
I'm not aware of Kevin Willard being approached by anyone of note.
Cooley's name has been out there but I don't remember if it was for any significant jobs.
I think most objective observers would say the Louisville job is better than any job in the Big East. I think most would also say that Ohio State is better than every job in the Big East except maybe Villanova. Big East coaches getting poached by the likes of these programs is a testament to the quality of coaches in our league.
I think what Goose and others were driving at, is that Villanova is likely the only job in the Big East that most would put in the top 15-20 in the nation. Other conferences have more and lot of that has to do with football money. Personally, I think the Big East makes up for it by having a lot of jobs in the 20-40 range, while a lot of the other power conferences have quality at the top and crap at the bottom. But that is a more dangerous place to be. Schools like Louisville, Michigan State, Villanova can falter but are almost sure to get back up again. Schools in the middle can falter and may never get back up.
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Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State. That gets overlooked a ton. From accounts, Ed Cooley and Kevin Willard have been approached by other programs over the past few years and they have stayed put. No one is going to come after either Mullin or Ewing, since the only college teams they will ever coach are their alma maters. In addition, many want to use Buzz leaving for Virginia Tech as "evidence" that any P5 school can poach a Big East coach whenever they want. This is simply not true. Other than the fact that Buzz took at pay cut to go to VT, it also doesn't take into account the other reasons why Buzz left. While it is easy to make the case it was due to "football money", I think a majority of those that know can definitely state that it was much, much more complicated than that. His departure was unique, to say the least.
Jay Wright has turned down overtures from other colleges and even the NBA. Again, that doesn't fit the narrative that the Big East is in danger long-term, or that the Big East schools are at a disadvantage to P5 schools. Big East coaches that have been hired away (Crean - IU, Mack - UL, Holtmann - OSU) left for top-15 basketball jobs in the whole country. Hardly a lateral move.
Are Big East coaches impervious from taking more prestigious jobs? Of course not. The reality is that the Big East is not know for hiring away proven winners from other programs. They promote assistants (Holtmann), they hire alums (Ewing, Mullin, Jordan) or they hire up-and-comers (Wojo, Willard, Cooley, Wright). In the case of DePaul (retread) and Creighton (Iowa State), those can be categorized as exceptions.
Until the day comes where Big East coaches get hired away to coach at places like Washington State, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Clemson, etc., I wouldn't place too much concern on Mack leaving representing a huge disadvantage the conference has at retaining coaches. If anything, blue blood programs hiring Big East coaches should speak volumes as to the success and consistency BE programs have in hiring head coaches.
I agree with much of this, and I don't see Ewing or Mullin having Mack-level success. But if they do, what if UK, Duke or UNC comes calling? I'd like to assume they'd say no....but then again I figured Mack would never leave X unless he was fired.
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Greg McDermott turned down Ohio State. That gets overlooked a ton.
I think it gets overlooked because I'm not sure it happened. At the time I remember early rumors of a Big East coach being involved, then a public report that McDermott said no. Felt like Holtmann was hired almost immediately after. I think it was Holtmann from the start.
I've talked to a few people that cast shade on the idea McDermott was a target. It made for a feel good story in Omaha, but I'm not sure there was ever any substance to it.
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Too many of us in here are defining Blue Bloods in the NCAA on history. Depending on how far back you go, just about any of the Top 75 to 100 programs in the NCAA could be considered a Blue Blood Program.
Here's how I would define it:
1) Sustained recent success.
2) Coaching stability.
3) Ability to get an audience with virtually any recruit in the United States.
4) Reasonable annual expectation for a Final Four.
In this vein, the Blue Bloods are Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky. I'd put Villanova in this class as well.
There are a couple of schools circling Blue Blood status. Likely Michigan, Virginia, Michigan State, Florida, Arizona, Syracuse.
Fallen Blue Bloods include UCLA, Indiana, Ohio State, UConn, Louisville and a host of others. Mack, he hopes, will restore Loserville.
What do you folks think, Scoopers?
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Seriously, fellas:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/06/08/greg-mcdermott-turns-down-ohio-state-stay-creighton/102629442/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/06/08/greg-mcdermott-turns-down-ohio-state-stay-creighton/102629442/)
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Too many of us in here are defining Blue Bloods in the NCAA on history. Depending on how far back you go, just about any of the Top 75 to 100 programs in the NCAA could be considered a Blue Blood Program.
Here's how I would define it:
1) Sustained recent success.
2) Coaching stability.
3) Ability to get an audience with virtually any recruit in the United States.
4) Reasonable annual expectation for a Final Four.
In this vein, the Blue Bloods are Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky. I'd put Villanova in this class as well.
There are a couple of schools circling Blue Blood status. Likely Michigan, Virginia, Michigan State, Florida, Arizona, Syracuse.
Fallen Blue Bloods include UCLA, Indiana, Ohio State, UConn, Louisville and a host of others. Mack, he hopes, will restore Loserville.
What do you folks think, Scoopers?
I think this is pretty good. I might add ability to win across multiple coaches. There are exactly 2 eras in UCLA basketball, with Wooden and without. Same with Knight at I4, same with Al at MU.
Kentucky has won with multiple coaches, so has Kansas, so has UNC. Duke gets a pass because their hall of fame coach is still there and is approaching his 40th year there, and when he does retire, I fully expect Duke to have their pick of almost any coach in America.
Nova might fall under this category, but I think there would be too much time between coaches. Obviously if they continue to win the way they have for the last 3 years that could change but any school can luck into a great hire once. If they have back to back hall of famers that stick around for a decade+ you're getting into blue blood territory.
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Article stating Buzz's VT contract was less than that at MU:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-contract-to-coach-virginia-tech-basketball-offers-several-incentives-and-perks/2014/05/21/d1a1fbd6-e02b-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html?utm_term=.399e91de5673 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-contract-to-coach-virginia-tech-basketball-offers-several-incentives-and-perks/2014/05/21/d1a1fbd6-e02b-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html?utm_term=.399e91de5673)
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I think this is pretty good. I might add ability to win across multiple coaches. There are exactly 2 eras in UCLA basketball, with Wooden and without. Same with Knight at I4, same with Al at MU.
Kentucky has won with multiple coaches, so has Kansas, so has UNC. Duke gets a pass because their hall of fame coach is still there and is approaching his 40th year there, and when he does retire, I fully expect Duke to have their pick of almost any coach in America.
Nova might fall under this category, but I think there would be too much time between coaches. Obviously if they continue to win the way they have for the last 3 years that could change but any school can luck into a great hire once. If they have back to back hall of famers that stick around for a decade+ you're getting into blue blood territory.
Any school that has blue as one of its school colors is a blue blood. Therefore Marquette is a blue blood just like Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky.
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Seriously, fellas:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/06/08/greg-mcdermott-turns-down-ohio-state-stay-creighton/102629442/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/06/08/greg-mcdermott-turns-down-ohio-state-stay-creighton/102629442/)
I'm aware. It's a very common tactic in the coaching world to leak to media that an "offer" has been extended to a coach. The coach then turns around and tells his current school "pay me or I walk." Buzz was a master at this.
What I have been told is that McDermott was interviewed but never offered.
Article stating Buzz's VT contract was less than that at MU:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-contract-to-coach-virginia-tech-basketball-offers-several-incentives-and-perks/2014/05/21/d1a1fbd6-e02b-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html?utm_term=.399e91de5673 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-contract-to-coach-virginia-tech-basketball-offers-several-incentives-and-perks/2014/05/21/d1a1fbd6-e02b-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html?utm_term=.399e91de5673)
https://painttouches.com/2014/05/14/buzz-williams-virginia-tech-contract-details/
Yes, Buzz took a "pay cut." He also has Virginia Tech over a barrel. Salary isn't the only thing to look at in a coach's contract.
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I think this is pretty good. I might add ability to win across multiple coaches. There are exactly 2 eras in UCLA basketball, with Wooden and without. Same with Knight at I4, same with Al at MU.
Kentucky has won with multiple coaches, so has Kansas, so has UNC. Duke gets a pass because their hall of fame coach is still there and is approaching his 40th year there, and when he does retire, I fully expect Duke to have their pick of almost any coach in America.
Nova might fall under this category, but I think there would be too much time between coaches. Obviously if they continue to win the way they have for the last 3 years that could change but any school can luck into a great hire once. If they have back to back hall of famers that stick around for a decade+ you're getting into blue blood territory.
All of Duke's championships have been under K, but they had a pretty decent history before him. They had been to 4 Final Fours before K ever set foot on campus, and gotten runner up twice. 3 of the Final Fours were under Vic Bubas in the 60s, and one under Bill Foster in the 70s. Altogether, they have been to Final Fours in 6 different decades under 3 different coaches. I'd say that's some pretty solid sustained success across coaches.
Indiana also had a pretty good coach in Branch McCracken, who won 2 national titles in the 40s and 50s.
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I think this is pretty good. I might add ability to win across multiple coaches. There are exactly 2 eras in UCLA basketball, with Wooden and without. Same with Knight at I4, same with Al at MU.
Indiana won two national championships under Branch McCracken.
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Indiana won two national championships under Branch McCracken.
If we're not counting Madison's championship from the WWII era, I'm not sure we can count his either. Hall of famer no doubt, but the glory days for I4 were under Knight.
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All of Duke's championships have been under K, but they had a pretty decent history before him. They had been to 4 Final Fours before K ever set foot on campus, and gotten runner up twice. 3 of the Final Fours were under Vic Bubas in the 60s, and one under Bill Foster in the 70s. Altogether, they have been to Final Fours in 6 different decades under 3 different coaches. I'd say that's some pretty solid sustained success across coaches.
Indiana also had a pretty good coach in Branch McCracken, who won 2 national titles in the 40s and 50s.
All true and should be considered. I said that multiple coaches success should only be part of the qualifications. Regardless K has enough success to be a blue blood by himself. And while they had success before he got there, blue bloods don't get their title by getting close to a championship they get it by winning championships.
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PRE-WWII era.
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If we're not counting Madison's championship from the WWII era, I'm not sure we can count his either. Hall of famer no doubt, but the glory days for I4 were under Knight.
But that's different then saying there were only two eras of IU basketball - with Knight and without. That's just not true. McCracken coached 20+ years, won 364 games and two national championships. Half of their conference championships and 40% of their national championships have occurred under coaches other than Knight.
You just can't ignore history.
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But that's different then saying there were only two eras of IU basketball - with Knight and without. That's just not true. McCracken coached 20+ years, won 364 games and two national championships. Half of their conference championships and 40% of their national championships have occurred under coaches other than Knight.
You just can't ignore history.
Not trying to ignore history, but it's a fact that the further you go back the more events get blurred and eventually forgotten. Now I'm sure that a lot of people still remember those days, but if you ask an I4 fan who THE coach in program history is and most will say Knight.
This discussion also furthers my original point since you have to go back almost 80 years to find I4s other relevant decade that the program has faded relative to where they were and should no longer be classified as a blue blood.
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Any school that has blue as one of its school colors is a blue blood. Therefore Marquette is a blue blood just like Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky.
Except we always lose on our blue uniforms
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Yes, Buzz took a "pay cut." He also has Virginia Tech over a barrel. Salary isn't the only thing to look at in a coach's contract.
Buzz Williams AD on record about the pay cut.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/03/29/coach-salary-database-buzz-williams-virginia-tech/99640588/
ESPN the same http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10648381/buzz-williams-leave-marquette-golden-eagles-coach-virginia-tech-hokies
Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-left-marquette-for-virginia-tech-and-many-wonder-why/2015/03/09/b6809952-c667-11e4-a199-6cb5e63819d2_story.html?utm_term=.e8f345bc387b
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Buzz Williams AD on record about the pay cut.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/03/29/coach-salary-database-buzz-williams-virginia-tech/99640588/
ESPN the same http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10648381/buzz-williams-leave-marquette-golden-eagles-coach-virginia-tech-hokies
Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/buzz-williams-left-marquette-for-virginia-tech-and-many-wonder-why/2015/03/09/b6809952-c667-11e4-a199-6cb5e63819d2_story.html?utm_term=.e8f345bc387b
Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.
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What are people's thoughts on UNLV. One of the dominant programs of the 90's, but dropped off the table when Tarkanian left and was in a non power conference. Definitely a blue blood of the 90s, but could not sustain success. I see a lot of similarities between them and Uconn, although Uconn had significantly more success under Calhoun, and some of that even carried over to Ollie. Both made critical mistakes, UNLV with problems with the NCAA due to drugs among other things, and Uconn with selling their soul to football.
UNLV popped up in someone's Mid Major poll / rankings this year and I wanted to MURDER somebody. Don't ever do UNLV like that.
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Are we really having this discussion about "what constitutes a blue blood" again?
I know, right? With all this talk of needles and blood, I'm getting a little light-headed.
I dislike over-discussion of "Class" when it comes to handicapping horses, so it follows I get tired of hearing who is/isn't a blue blood. I'm not sure it's something to even aspire to. Connotations of easy-street, not earning your place. Kentucky, Duke, Kansas cherry-pick too much top talent. Love the NCAA tournament because "class" is often dismissed in a one-game, win or go home format.
With the equines, there is definitely such a thing as "first to the feed tub" where dominant horses assert their herd dominance. But supposedly "cheaper" horses beat supremely-bred horses every day.
With college hoops today, "class" means even less, as kids today are not fazed by facing the elites and their tradition. Bernie Mac said it best, "I ain't scared-a-you mF's!"
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Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.
Yes but No. The keg has been changed.....drink up.....dilly dilly.
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Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.
True story...a buddy of mine LIVES and DIES with MU hoops. Last week his son got married in Japan, in MARCH. He attended.
I said to my wife: that doesn't happen if Buzz is still coaching.
We need to get back to relevance.
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True story...a buddy of mine LIVES and DIES with MU hoops. Last week his son got married in Japan, in MARCH. He attended.
I said to my wife: that doesn't happen if Buzz is still coaching.
We need to get back to relevance.
Amen, brother Lens.
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There is short term money and long term money. This is not laughable at all.
He can be at X for the rest of his career potentially. He may not succeed at Louisville and be out before the 7 years. The expectations are much different. If that were to happen, he would have made more money staying where he is at. Impossible to predict the future, but it isn't a laughable argument that could be made.
Sure, whatever.
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True story...a buddy of mine LIVES and DIES with MU hoops. Last week his son got married in Japan, in MARCH. He attended.
I said to my wife: that doesn't happen if Buzz is still coaching.
We need to get back to relevance.
So he doesn't go to his own sons wedding if Marquette is playing in March? Seems like his priorities are very, very different than I would guess most people with children.
As much as we like to think otherwise, basketball coaches don't run a university. If Buzz was holding Marquette hostage then I really don't have an issue with the admin moving on.
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Buzz' happy needed to be messed with.
The Pilzarz/L Williams administration messed with the happy in the wrong way.
Both of these statements are true. It doesn't need to be a thing people take sides on.
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The Lens
Love it. Seems a lot longer than six years ago since we played a game that meant something.
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The Lens
Love it. Seems a lot longer than six years ago since we played a game that meant something.
The NCAA game vs. South Carolina didn't matter?
I guess none of the games played in this year's NCAA tournament by any teams mattered, either.
You know, Goose, you can make your point that you believe the program is not progressing under Wojo without making silly (and false) statements like that. You're better than that.
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The NCAA game vs. South Carolina didn't matter?
I guess none of the games played in this year's NCAA tournament by any teams mattered, either.
You know, Goose, you can make your point that you believe the program is not progressing under Wojo without making silly (and false) statements like that. You're better than that.
Not to get all philisophical, but do any basketball games matter?
If someone is strictly a fan, and cares about Marquette basketball (or any other sport, for that matter) for anything other than entertainment and school/regional pride, I am not sure one's priorities are in the right place.
And if you require 95th percentile performance every single year in order to fulfill your requirements for entertainment and school pride, I feel bad for you. :)
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Back to Mack. With his departure, there should be (conceivably) one less strong program in front of Marquette. Villanova is likely to lose a lot after this season. Seton Hall is losing a lot. DePaul will still be down. St. Johns is always inconsistent. The cards are setting up nicely for a strong MU season next year, especially if we get that certain grad transfer PG.
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So he doesn't go to his own sons wedding if Marquette is playing in March? Seems like his priorities are very, very different than I would guess most people with children.
As much as we like to think otherwise, basketball coaches don't run a university. If Buzz was holding Marquette hostage then I really don't have an issue with the admin moving on.
Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent? I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.
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Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent? I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.
I suggest people with children withhold commentary, since they have a clear conflict of interest.
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I suggest people with children withhold commentary, since they have a clear conflict of interest.
Also, if you have ever been someone's child, you should also withhold commentary.
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MU82
I stand corrected. The MU vs. South Carolina game mattered. To be honest, I had completely forget we played them last year. My point was more on how time flies. When I was I thinking about the E8 my youngest was in high school and now a year removed from MU.
So, I guess my point might actually be deeper than I first thought. In this thread I noted how five years can turn into a decade, if things go poorly. Not saying that will happen, but it is amazing how fast time really goes by.
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MU82
I stand corrected. The MU vs. South Carolina game mattered. To be honest, I had completely forget we played them last year. My point was more on how time flies. When I was I thinking about the E8 my youngest was in high school and now a year removed from MU.
So, I guess my point might actually be deeper than I first thought. In this thread I noted how five years can turn into a decade, if things go poorly. Not saying that will happen, but it is amazing how fast time really goes by.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
And of course, big picture, I agree with chickadee ... in the grand scheme of life, few if any basketball games "matter."
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Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent? I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.
My son got married in Chicago on March 10. That also was the date of the state title game for girls basketball in North Carolina. I am the assistant coach for a very good team, and we thought we had a decent chance to win the title. But it was my kid's wedding, and obviously I was not going to miss that.
As I told our head coach back in January: "I hope I'm very disappointed because I'm not with the rest of you at that game." His response: "I hope you're disappointed, too!"
Unfortunately, we both ended up having a different kind of disappointment, as our team lost in the state quarterfinals to the eventual champs.
But yeah, anybody who would miss his own kid's wedding for a basketball game ... please.
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My son got married in Chicago on March 10. That also was the date of the state title game for girls basketball in North Carolina. I am the assistant coach for a very good team, and we thought we had a decent chance to win the title. But it was my kid's wedding, and obviously I was not going to miss that.
As I told our head coach back in January: "I hope I'm very disappointed because I'm not with the rest of you at that game." His response: "I hope you're disappointed, too!"
Unfortunately, we both ended up having a different kind of disappointment, as our team lost in the state quarterfinals to the eventual champs.
But yeah, anybody who would miss his own kid's wedding for a basketball game ... please.
That being said, the only time it is reasonable to hold your wedding in Japan and expect anyone to attend is if either the bride or the groom grew up there. Sometimes I think these destination weddings are getting out of hand.
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Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.
No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.
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No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.
This. The last thing we needed was to have Marquette become a mini-Louisville with the athletic department running the University.
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Buzz survived the ineptitude and idiocy that was Scott Pilar and Larry Williams but the constant battles left him weary and wary. They messed with Buzz's happy and MU fan have been paying for it ever since.
In this case, messing with Buzz's happy = not giving him free rein to do as he pleased, consequences and impact on the wider university be darned.
There's enough blame from the breakup to go around, but reducing it to "they messed with Buzz's happy" is a gross and inaccurate oversimplification. At the end of the day, both parties are probably better off for the split. (Unless you're in the win-at-all-costs camp).
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Buzz Williams was great at times, but he is 8-7 in the tournament and for those that only care about the tournament around here that isn't setting the world on fire. He had some nice runs and some early burnouts (or non-bids).
Back to Xavier, reportedly Sean Miller and Steve Alford have inquired about the opening in Cincinnati. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2018/03/30/next-steps-finding-chris-macks-replacement-xavier-basketball/472241002/
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Buzz Williams was great at times, but he is 8-7 in the tournament and for those that only care about the tournament around here that isn't setting the world on fire. He had some nice runs and some early burnouts (or non-bids).
Cheekz, better to be there and lose than to not be there at all.
No, it’s more that Buzz kept pushing boundaries beyond that Marquette was willing to do and should be willing to do, because he knew he had boosters in his back pocket and a contract that gave him an incredible advantage. He wasn’t willing to play by the rules, be a team player, and his ego grew out of control. Nobody was sad to see him leave for a multitude of reasons. The blame is on Buzz.
So, people have said stuff like this since Buzz left. I don't dispute it. But everyone seems fuzzy on what exactly he wanted to do that qualifies as "pushing boundaries beyond that MU was willing to do." Can someone set the record straight: what exactly did Buzz want to do that pushed boundaries?
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Baby
He pushed a lot of boundaries and it was not for everyone. Couple that with the push for more money every year and BOT/admin tired of him. IMO, he flat out scared some people and the rest is history.
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Baby
He pushed a lot of boundaries and it was not for everyone. Couple that with the push for more money every year and BOT/admin tired of him. IMO, he flat out scared some people and the rest is history.
I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!
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I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!
They were concerned about players like Jae Crowder who had no ability to graduate before his eligibility was up as well as issues with recruits like Malek Harris and the Juco dude who was arrested for rape early on in his tenure.
Of course it has been mentioned that he handled the sexual assault accusations poorly as well.
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I'm still curious to know what he specifically did that pushed boundaries. Are we talking in code here about the fact he recruited "cracked sidewalks" kind of players? Is that all? Everyone keeps saying he pushed boundaries and leaves it at that - I want details man!
Others may be able to provide more details/insight, but among the issues:
- Signing players who were unprepared academically for Marquette and had no interest/ability to complete the coursework.
- A nationally publicized sex assault case in which Buzz got involved (whether that was malice or simple negligence on his part likely depends on your POV of Buzz ... I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt).
- An NCAA rules violation that led to a one-game suspension for Buzz and dismissal of an assistant
- A bar brawl and a separate incident involving a player charged with assaulting a fellow student (who arguably had it coming, but still ...)
- Buzz annually flirting with other programs
- Recruits like Monterale Clark and Malek Harris being accused of criminal conduct (fortunately before arriving on campus).
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The NCAA game vs. South Carolina didn't matter?
I guess none of the games played in this year's NCAA tournament by any teams mattered, either.
You know, Goose, you can make your point that you believe the program is not progressing under Wojo without making silly (and false) statements like that. You're better than that.
Yeah, hard to believe no game matters when you need to go to Scalpers to purchase an NIT game ticket.
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They were concerned about players like Jae Crowder who had no ability to graduate before his eligibility was up as well as issues with recruits like Malek Harris and the Juco dude who was arrested for rape early on in his tenure.
Of course it has been mentioned that he handled the sexual assault accusations poorly as well.
Others may be able to provide more details/insight, but among the issues:
- Signing players who were unprepared academically for Marquette and had no interest/ability to complete the coursework.
- A nationally publicized sex assault case in which Buzz got involved (whether that was malice or simple negligence on his part likely depends on your POV of Buzz ... I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt).
- An NCAA rules violation that led to a one-game suspension for Buzz and dismissal of an assistant
- A bar brawl and a separate incident involving a player charged with assaulting a fellow student (who arguably had it coming, but still ...)
- Buzz annually flirting with other programs
- Recruits like Monterale Clark and Malek Harris being accused of criminal conduct (fortunately before arriving on campus).
Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.
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Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.
With Buzz there was no one event as big as paying escorts or players like with Slick Rick or Sean Miller, but the smaller problems were starting to pile up, and the constant flirting with other programs certainly did not help.
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Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.
I wonder if you'd say the same thing if it was your daughter that was one of the two girls that were gang raped. I agree minor recruiting infractions, drunken bar brawls etc happen but sexual assault is not something to accept as the price of doing business in college athletics
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With Buzz there was no one event as big as paying escorts or players like with Slick Rick or Sean Miller, but the smaller problems were starting to pile up, and the constant flirting with other programs certainly did not help.
Right, it was definitely death by a thousand cuts. And I'm sure that went both ways. There likely was no one big event that soured Buzz on Marquette, but a series of perceived slights.
And, while some love to heap all the blame on Pilarz and Larry Williams, by his own admission Buzz has indicated his fear - as it turns out, a misguided fear - about the future of the Big East was a major factor in him leaving.
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And, while some love to heap all the blame on Pilarz and Larry Williams, by his own admission Buzz has indicated his fear - as it turns out, a misguided fear - about the future of the Big East was a major factor in him leaving.
That was simply the public excuse. He wasn't going to go on TV decked out in his VA Tech gear and say, "The Athletic Director and Board of Trustees wouldn't let me have complete free reign, and tried to hold my players accountable for stupid stuff like academics and conduct."
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Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics?
It can work on an occasional basis - like for a 5-star prospect - but it can ruin your APR if it happens too often.
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There is no doubt that Buzz polarized many MU folks. I do not think I have ever seen a player or coach that the fans either loved or strongly disliked. His departure was easy for me because he was gone a year before he left.
While I wish Buzz was still here, I understand why the University opted to go the direction they ultimately went. Not my choice on direction, but they drew in the line in the sand and feel comfortable with their decision.
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There is no doubt that Buzz polarized many MU folks. I do not think I have ever seen a player or coach that the fans either loved or strongly disliked. His departure was easy for me because he was gone a year before he left.
While I wish Buzz was still here, I understand why the University opted to go the direction they ultimately went. Not my choice on direction, but they drew in the line in the sand and feel comfortable with their decision.
I didn't know many MU fans who strongly disliked the guy until he mailed in his last season. There were some who were disappointed in how he handled off-court issues, but most people I knew either loved him or were at least OK with him.
If you consider fans' perspectives after a coach leaves, I give you Crean...the guy who recruited DWade and the Amigos, took us to the Final Four, and still got booed for years when his pic came up on the jumbotron.
And a lot of MU fans were pretty pissed with Al in February 1977, but he turned that around in March....
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Pakuni
I think you summed things up very well. The only issue I have on any of the incidents noted is the sexual assault. I was a very big fan on Vander Bue as a basketball player during his time at MU, but if University felt he and Buzz were guilty, Blue never should have played another game at MU. Either he was guilty or he was innocent. If guilty, he should have been tossed out on his butt.
If he was guilty and the University let him stay, they are hypocrites IMO. I would have 100% supported that decision. Since he continued his career at MU, that issue should have been closed.
I also would add, the bar fight was something and the University knew about the events, yet they did nothing. Warriorchick said she would not want MU being a mini Louisville, but the administration, not athletic department, ignored that event. Again, there is plenty of guilt to go around.
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Gooo
Five years later there are still pro Buzz guys, including me. Not many pro TC guys since his departure. I was noting that Buzz still supporters in MKE and a lot of anti Buzz guys.
As for Al, yes a large number of folks had an unhappy seven days in 1977, but come on. That one is a stretch to me. That said, that was an ugly stretch in Feb in 1977.
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Every since he left for VT, I have been very curious to see how long Buzz stays at VT. Much of it will depend on the support he continues to get from Babcock and the President. The fan base loves him, and as long as they just continue to make the tournament, with a win or a run every now and then, he can be there as long as he wants.
I was actually perplexed why Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz. He seems like he would be a perfect fit there. Again, it's probably due to his support that he gets from VT admin and fan base.
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Gooo
Five years later there are still pro Buzz guys, including me. Not many pro TC guys since his departure. I was noting that Buzz still supporters in MKE and a lot of anti Buzz guys.
As for Al, yes a large number of folks had an unhappy seven days in 1977, but come on. That one is a stretch to me. That said, that was an ugly stretch in Feb in 1977.
That was a tough stretch at the Arena. Still can’t believe people were booing. My brother and I just looked at each other in the stands at the end of the Witchita State game when folks were booing and said ya gotta be kidding. That was a tough season with Al announcing his retirement in December. It was like the air was let out of the Arena building some games. Though, those 3 teams were actually very good with some great talent in Cheese Johnson, John Long, and a good DePaul bunch.
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Every since he left for VT, I have been very curious to see how long Buzz stays at VT. Much of it will depend on the support he continues to get from Babcock and the President. The fan base loves him, and as long as they just continue to make the tournament, with a win or a run every now and then, he can be there as long as he wants.
I was actually perplexed why Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz. He seems like he would be a perfect fit there. Again, it's probably due to his support that he gets from VT admin and fan base.
Buzz does not really fit the formal horse country image down there. Denny Crum, Rick Pitino and then Buzz...nope. In any event, the Villle really wanted a good face after the last few years.
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I was actually perplexed why Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz. He seems like he would be a perfect fit there. Again, it's probably due to his support that he gets from VT admin and fan base.
Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because the fans at Virginia Tech like him? That's .... odd.
Better theory .... Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because they wanted someone with a squeaky clean image and more accomplished record.
For all the cr@p Wojo gets around here (some if it deserved), let's not forget Buzz hasn't won a tournament game in five years.
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Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because the fans at Virginia Tech like him? That's .... odd.
Better theory .... Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because they wanted someone with a squeaky clean image and more accomplished record.
For all the cr@p Wojo gets around here (some if it deserved), let's not forget Buzz hasn't won a tournament game in five years.
Correct theory. The media would have killed Louisville with the stories that happened here when Coach Williams was the head of the program, fairly or not. If Mack doesn't work out, however, Williams would be a perfect fit for Louisville.
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That was a tough stretch at the Arena. Still can’t believe people were booing. My brother and I just looked at each other in the stands at the end of the Witchita State game when folks were booing and said ya gotta be kidding. That was a tough season with Al announcing his retirement in December. It was like the air was let out of the Arena building some games. Though, those 3 teams were actually very good with some great talent in Cheese Johnson, John Long, and a good DePaul bunch.
I was at that Witcha State game on the floor behind the basket in the student section. The boos were directed at the refs who tossed Al. It was bedlam when he got kicked out. Those boos were not directed at Al or the team. The refs got escorted off the floor by the police.
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I was at that Witcha State game on the floor behind the basket in the student section. The boos were directed at the refs who tossed Al. It was bedlam when he got kicked out. Those boos were not directed at Al or the team. The refs got escorted off the floor by the police.
Nope, they were after the game as the team was leaving the floor. Yes, we booed the refs as well. But, that was well before.
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Thanks both. The "no academic interest" issue seems insignificant - I mean, did anyone believe Henry Ellenson was even remotely interested in MU's academics? The other points make more sense, though they're mostly problems I'm willing to accept as the price of doing business in modern college sports (so long as they're handled adequately, which Buzz did much of the time but not always). I remember each of the events listed when they occurred, and they never stood out as "program rot." But combined with entitlement/constant $ demands/constant flirting, I can see why the Board would be annoyed.
Ellenson was a one and done all along, that was made clear from the start. Buzz brought in guys who had to go to school every summer just to get eligible. It wasn’t just one, it was a majority of the team. MU leadership tired of that being an annual issue and Buzz’s openly not caring about academics.
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It can work on an occasional basis - like for a 5-star prospect - but it can ruin your APR if it happens too often.
As long as a one and done finishes the semester eligible and signs a pro contract it does not affect APR.
But, guys who finish their eligibility and don’t graduate does negatively affect APR.
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Do you have children ChitownSpaceForRent? I would suggest you withhold commentary until you do.
I do have children, well no longer children, and find Chitown's commentary is right. If basketball keeps you from going to a son's wedding you are really messed up.
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So he doesn't go to his own sons wedding if Marquette is playing in March? Seems like his priorities are very, very different than I would guess most people with children.
Maybe exchange your need to be judgmental for a sense of humor. Everyone (including you) will benefit.
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Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because the fans at Virginia Tech like him? That's .... odd.
Better theory .... Louisville didn't reach out to Buzz because they wanted someone with a squeaky clean image and more accomplished record.
For all the cr@p Wojo gets around here (some if it deserved), let's not forget Buzz hasn't won a tournament game in five years.
Is Mack really that much cleaner than Buzz? I agree on the results though, I’m always surprised about the longing for Buzz here based on what he’s done since 2013.
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As long as a one and done finishes the semester eligible and signs a pro contract it does not affect APR.
But, guys who finish their eligibility and don’t graduate does negatively affect APR.
I am pretty sure Henry left before finishing semester.
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This. The last thing we needed was to have Marquette become a mini-Louisville with the athletic department running the University.
Mrs. Cain drew a line in the sand in opposition when one of our kids was recruited by Louisville. Her position was Louisville was a glorified community college and completely corrupt. So there are people who share your opinion.
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Buzz does not really fit the formal horse country image down there. Denny Crum, Rick Pitino and then Buzz...nope. In any event, the Villle really wanted a good face after the last few years.
Despite Churchill hosting the Derby, the real horse country is at Keeneland in Lexington. Most of the top farms reside within a few miles of Lexington. Blue-blood to the hilt. Genteel folk. UK gets a bad rap re "rednecks", but there are some serious monied interests at play with that university. Keeneland has a couple UK days each meet, and the place looks like a Burberry/Lands End/ Mark Shale catalogue or GQ mag. Go to Churchill any day other than Derby day, and it's just a typical racetrack, with no dress code. No offense to the good people of Churchill/Louisville (I actually feel more comfortable there), but Buzz would fit right in at the 'Ville under the Twin Spires.
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Despite Churchill hosting the Derby, the real horse country is at Keeneland in Lexington. Most of the top farms reside within a few miles of Lexington. Blue-blood to the hilt. Genteel folk. UK gets a bad rap re "rednecks", but there are some serious monied interests at play with that university. Keeneland has a couple UK days each meet, and the place looks like a Burberry/Lands End/ Mark Shale catalogue or GQ mag. Go to Churchill any day other than Derby day, and it's just a typical racetrack, with no dress code. No offense to the good people of Churchill/Louisville (I actually feel more comfortable there), but Buzz would fit right in at the 'Ville under the Twin Spires.
This was poetic, nice work.
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For all the cr@p Wojo gets around here (some if it deserved), let's not forget Buzz hasn't won a tournament game in five years.
LOL. Virginia Tech pre Buzz was DePaul minus the Meyer years. One NCAA appearance in 10 years, two in 28. Making back to back tournaments at Va Tech is like making the Final Four at an Illinois or a Georgia Tech, e.g. Banner worthy.
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LOL. Virginia Tech pre Buzz was DePaul minus the Meyer years. One NCAA appearance in 10 years, two in 28. Making back to back tournaments at Va Tech is like making the Final Four at an Illinois or a Georgia Tech, e.g. Banner worthy.
Little history lesson for you, Lenny.
During Seth Greenberg's time in Blacksburg, the Hokies had four 20+-win seasons and finished in the top 5 of the ACC five times. They had bad luck when it came time for Selection Sunday, essentially serving as Team Bubble Watch before MU claimed the title under Buzz, and usually coming out on the wrong end.
But they were nothing like the DePaul, which has one winning season since 2006 and hasn't finished better than 7th in its conference since then. You making that comparison is either hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
Anyhow, enjoy that "We lost in the first round - twice!" banner ceremony. Take pictures and post them.
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Little history lesson for you, Lenny.
During Seth Greenberg's time in Blacksburg, the Hokies had four 20+-win seasons and finished in the top 5 of the ACC five times. They had bad luck when it came time for Selection Sunday, essentially serving as Team Bubble Watch before MU claimed the title under Buzz, and usually coming out on the wrong end.
But they were nothing like the DePaul, which has one winning season since 2006 and hasn't finished better than 7th in its conference since then. You making that comparison is either hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
Anyhow, enjoy that "We lost in the first round - twice!" banner ceremony. Take pictures and post them.
Little history lesson for you, Pakuni.
Buzz didn't succeed Seth Greenberg at Tech. In the year prior to Buzz's arrival the Hokies were 9-22, 2-18 in the ACC. Year before that, 13-19, 4-14. Year before that (Greenberg's last), 16-17, 4-12. In the 18 years BB (before Buzz), Tech made 1 NCAA tourney and 4 NITs. In that same period, DePaul made 2 NCAAs and 4 NITs.
DePaul 4 years ago and VaTech 4 years ago were two of the biggest dumpster fire programs in major college basketball. Was DePaul worse than 2-18, 4-14 and 4-12? Yes, I'll grant you that. But saying the two programs weren't comparable is either hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
Snark all you want, but when a program that's made the tournament twice in 30 years makes it back to back that's quite an accomplishment.
And please, stop with that "team bubble" nonsense. I don't care what some writer dubbed them, Buzz had only one team anywhere near the bubble (an 11 seed that made the S16). His other 4 NCAA teams were seeded 6,6,3 and 3 - which means ranked between 21-24 twice and 9-12 twice - nowhere near "the bubble" unless you are dealing in hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
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Little history lesson for you, Pakuni.
Buzz didn't succeed Seth Greenberg at Tech. In the year prior to Buzz's arrival the Hokies were 9-22, 2-18 in the ACC. Year before that, 13-19, 4-14. Year before that (Greenberg's last), 16-17, 4-12. In the 18 years BB (before Buzz), Tech made 1 NCAA tourney and 4 NITs. In that same period, DePaul made 2 NCAAs and 4 NITs.
DePaul 4 years ago and VaTech 4 years ago were two of the biggest dumpster fire programs in major college basketball. Was DePaul worse than 2-18, 4-14 and 4-12? Yes, I'll grant you that. But saying the two programs weren't comparable is either hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
Snark all you want, but when a program that's made the tournament twice in 30 years makes it back to back that's quite an accomplishment.
And please, stop with that "team bubble" nonsense. I don't care what some writer dubbed them, Buzz had only one team anywhere near the bubble (an 11 seed that made the S16). His other 4 NCAA teams were seeded 6,6,3 and 3 - which means ranked between 21-24 twice and 9-12 twice - nowhere near "the bubble" unless you are dealing in hyperbole run amok or ignorance.
Not going to get into this battle but I do chuckle over the constant talking about VaTech. As someone who spends a fair bit of time in Blacksburg for work, and works with an untold amount of Tech grads, Scoop talks more about their B-Ball program than they do. Half of them don't even think about their basketball program until March rolls around. And exiting in the first round means it is short lived.
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Little history lesson for you, Pakuni.
If you're sticking by the argument that Virginia Tech 's program was as bad as DePaul's has been, there's no use continuing this discussion. It's like discussing astrophysics with Kyrie Irving.
Chicos:Crean::Lenny:Buzz
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Are we really having this discussion about "what constitutes a blue blood" again?
Seriously - quickest way to a 10 page thread around here.
Of course, that thread will devolve into a discussion about Buzz.
So, what's X up to these days?
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Seriously - quickest way to a 10 page thread around here.
Of course, that thread will devolve into a discussion about Buzz.
So, what's X up to these days?
Travis Steele.
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Is Mack really that much cleaner than Buzz? I agree on the results though, I’m always surprised about the longing for Buzz here based on what he’s done since 2013.
This. Xavier was mentioned in the FBI probe and have had their own off the court issues. Heck, they had their own on the court discipline issues. Mack didn’t get the job due to a squeaky clean image. I’d say he has a better resume than Buzz.
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This. Xavier was mentioned in the FBI probe and have had their own off the court issues. Heck, they had their own on the court discipline issues. Mack didn’t get the job due to a squeaky clean image. I’d say he has a better resume than Buzz.
Not this.
Xavier was mentioned in the FBI probe because a former player and/or his dad may have received money from an agent. That had nothing to do with Mack, and certainly nothing akin to some of the issues we saw at MU, i.e. multiple sex assault allegations and a coach fired for an NCAA violation. Saying Mack had issues similar to Buzz is like saying Buzz had issues similar to Pitino.
Look, I have a great deal of appreciation for what Buzz did at MU, but he doesn't deserve the deification some around here give him. There was some downside to all the great things he did.
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This. Xavier was mentioned in the FBI probe and have had their own off the court issues. Heck, they had their own on the court discipline issues. Mack didn’t get the job due to a squeaky clean image. I’d say he has a better resume than Buzz.
In an alternative reality, Buzz didn't leave MU for VTI. Buzz had relative success and then left for UL.
What about the reality where Hitler cured cancer? Just don’t think about it, Morty.
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Not this.
Xavier was mentioned in the FBI probe because a former player and/or his dad may have received money from an agent. That had nothing to do with Mack, and certainly nothing akin to some of the issues we saw at MU, i.e. multiple sex assault allegations and a coach fired for an NCAA violation. Saying Mack had issues similar to Buzz is like saying Buzz had issues similar to Pitino.
Xavier has had its own issues off the court too.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/17444625/xavier-musketeers-guard-myles-davis-suspended-indefinitely
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Xavier has had its own issues off the court too.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/17444625/xavier-musketeers-guard-myles-davis-suspended-indefinitely
The difference is that Buzz made sure that none of the Marquette players received any real consequences for their off-court incidents.
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The difference is that Buzz made sure that none of the Marquette players received any real consequences for their off-court incidents.
When you gather the team for a special meeting after a sexual assault to collaborate, you can assist in getting out of these things.
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When you gather the team for a special meeting after a sexual assault to collaborate, you can assist in getting out of these things.
And encourage someone to contact the alleged victim during said meeting.
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And encourage someone to contact the alleged victim during said meeting.
How did I forget the best part?
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When you gather the team for a special meeting after a sexual assault to collaborate, you can assist in getting out of these things.
That was my point.
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warriorchick
Why is no one higher up than Buzz held accountable in your opinion? If it is your belief that Buzz and athletic department held the power, than it was a mini-Louisville. I get you bleed blue and gold, but if brass knew what you believe you know, I have lost a lot respect for BOT.
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warriorchick
Why is no one higher up than Buzz held accountable in your opinion? If it is your belief that Buzz and athletic department held the power, than it was a mini-Louisville. I get you bleed blue and gold, but if brass knew what you believe you know, I have lost a lot respect for BOT.
Why do you assume that no one above Buzz was held accountable?
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warriorchick
Why is no one higher up than Buzz held accountable in your opinion? If it is your belief that Buzz and athletic department held the power, than it was a mini-Louisville. I get you bleed blue and gold, but if brass knew what you believe you know, I have lost a lot respect for BOT.
Note that the "brass" is no longer at the University, either. And the new people replaced Buzz with someone who was squeaky clean.
My guess is that the BOD did not have enough hard evidence to punish Buzz. Also, a lot of this stuff did not come to full light until after he was on his way out.
I do know that for many reasons, there were cartwheels in Zilber when Buzz quit.
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TAMU
I have little interest in getting long debate over 6-7 years ago. I went on record after Buzz’s second S16 that the BOT wanted him gone. They knew what happened and publicly supported Buzz. Buzz was told, encouraged to look for a new gig and would have been gone one year earlier if they did not go so deep in NCAA.
Fact is, BOT knew, they wanted Buzz out and did not have the backbone to can him.
Warriorchick
The BOT is the brass I am talking about. Covering up a sexual assault is far bigger than AD or President. They kept things in house, rather than dumping Buzz.
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When you gather the team for a special meeting after a sexual assault to collaborate, you can assist in getting out of these things.
That's bad
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Warriorchick
While you are well connected, or so it seems, but to say a lot of stuff did not come out until Buzz was on way out, is just factually inaccurate. Possibly it became news to you, but the dirty laundry was known by the inner circle.
Also, of course there were cartwheels when he left. They wanted him to leave two years earlier. Of course they got squeaky clean. That was the plan over two years before Buzz was gone.
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Warriorchick
While you are well connected, or so it seems, but to say a lot of stuff did not come out until Buzz was on way out, is just factually inaccurate. Possibly it became news to you, but the dirty laundry was known by the inner circle.
Also, of course there were cartwheels when he left. They wanted him to leave two years earlier. Of course they got squeaky clean. That was the plan over two years before Buzz was gone.
Do you object to squeaky clean? You seem to be a Porter Moser guy, doesn't he fit that bill?
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WarriorDad
I have no problem with squeaky clean. I have no idea if Porter is a legit long time winner or one hit wonder. Have stated my love of Rick many times and I love the Rick connection. Have talked to number of folks that know Porter and say he is a great, great guy. Heard he is comfortable with a cold one in his hand, so my kind of guy.
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WarriorDad
I have no problem with squeaky clean. I have no idea if Porter is a legit long time winner or one hit wonder. Have stated my love of Rick many times and I love the Rick connection. Have talked to number of folks that know Porter and say he is a great, great guy. Heard he is comfortable with a cold one in his hand, so my kind of guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWtI2VMNOfU
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And encourage someone to contact the alleged victim during said meeting.
And don’t forget run off the guy who knew what really happened but was expendable.
Buzz was complete trash.
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TAMU
I have little interest in getting long debate over 6-7 years ago. I went on record after Buzz’s second S16 that the BOT wanted him gone. They knew what happened and publicly supported Buzz. Buzz was told, encouraged to look for a new gig and would have been gone one year earlier if they did not go so deep in NCAA.
Fact is, BOT knew, they wanted Buzz out and did not have the backbone to can him.
Warriorchick
The BOT is the brass I am talking about. Covering up a sexual assault is far bigger than AD or President. They kept things in house, rather than dumping Buzz.
It wasn’t that they didn’t have the guts, but Buzz’s contract was so ridiculous and advantageous to him he could do whatever he wanted without consequences. He told his superiors as much.
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Billy
You do not risk an entire University reputation over a contract buyout. Again, either it was an issue or it was not. If it was, you write the check.
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And don’t forget run off the guy who knew what really happened but was expendable.
Buzz was complete trash.
Singleton?
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If you're sticking by the argument that Virginia Tech 's program was as bad as DePaul's has been, there's no use continuing this discussion. It's like discussing astrophysics with Kyrie Irving.
Chicos:Crean::Lenny:Buzz
Pakuni,
Please reread my post. I cleary stated that DePaul was worse. De Paul was 8-44 in Buzz's last 3 years at MU and finished last in the Big East all three years. Tech was 10-42 and finished tied for last once and last twice. Not as bad (which I admitted) but comparable.
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And don’t forget run off the guy who knew what really happened but was expendable.
Buzz was complete trash.
Who was that?
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And don’t forget run off the guy who knew what really happened but was expendable.
Buzz was complete trash.
Now c'mon. Buzz was just a misunderstood downhome lonesome cowboy.
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Billy
You do not risk an entire University reputation over a contract buyout. Again, either it was an issue or it was not. If it was, you write the check.
I agree, and many wanted him gone, but $15 million is a lot for MU. Esprcially when Buzz had the biggest donors in his back pocket.
The best strategy they had considering the financial implications was to drive him away.
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Maybe
chicos warrior dad can tell the long lost tales of buzz?
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Billy
I am hoping you are a 13 year old fan, but I am afraid that is not the case. Your argument is flawed twice, first off, the school made the crazy buyout with Buzz, not forced on them. Don’t make a deal that you cannot live with. Secondly, 15 million to protect an institution is sometimes the cost of doing business.
Bottom line, they did not fear the incident could damage the University as a whole, and opted to sleep with someone they did not respect over buying him out. Again, in mind, they must not have thought the incidents were big enough to damage the school.
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Maybe chicos warrior dad can tell the long lost tales of buzz?
Or his alter ego - Billy Hoyle.
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I agree, and many wanted him gone, but $15 million is a lot for MU. Esprcially when Buzz had the biggest donors in his back pocket.
The best strategy they had considering the financial implications was to drive him away.
Exactly. Most of the time when you have an employee you want to get rid of, and you know they are looking for another job, the best thing to do in the short term is to stand back and let them find it. No severance, no legal problems, etc.
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I feel like this thread is just full of wild guesses and misinformation at this point.
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Warriorchick
Buzz was not an ordinary employee and hiding a sexual assault, bar fights is not a guy stealing paper clips.
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Warriorchick
Buzz was not an ordinary employee and hiding a sexual assault, bar fights is not a guy stealing paper clips.
College kids get into bar fights and sneak into bars underage. That's not a big deal, what surprised me about that was every member of the team looked to be the aggressor on the video and nobody was level headed enough to pull back their friends.
The sexual assault ordeal was disgusting and truly made me embarrassed to tell people my school for a few months.
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Piper
How long was Buzz coach after the sexual assault? Obviously, Marquette felt it was not the same issue you felt it was.
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Piper
How long was Buzz coach after the sexual assault? Obviously, Marquette felt it was not the same issue you felt it was.
Goose
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your statement. But it seems like you're saying it was not a big deal because MU looked into it and didn't fire buzz. I wonder would you use that same logic with Lassar Nassar and MSU?
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Billy
I am hoping you are a 13 year old fan, but I am afraid that is not the case. Your argument is flawed twice, first off, the school made the crazy buyout with Buzz, not forced on them. Don’t make a deal that you cannot live with. Secondly, 15 million to protect an institution is sometimes the cost of doing business.
Bottom line, they did not fear the incident could damage the University as a whole, and opted to sleep with someone they did not respect over buying him out. Again, in mind, they must not have thought the incidents were big enough to damage the school.
I am not defending the university. I cut off all donations and support of MU while Buzz was there. I told Larry Williams straight up why. It wasn’t Williams who did it, the previous administration gave Buzz a contract with no buyout clauses. Unfortunately MU did not have the financial resources to get rid of him even though they wanted to. MU screwed themselves. Larry Williams was brought in to get rid of Buzz but couldn’t do it through dismissal.
Many times massive buyouts are paid by boosters. Buzz had the boosters in his back pocket. He knew that and flaunted it, especially when Pilar’s went down.
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I am not defending the university. I cut off all donations and support of MU while Buzz was there. I told Larry Williams straight up why. It wasn’t Williams who did it, the previous administration gave Buzz a contract with no buyout clauses. Unfortunately MU did not have the financial resources to get rid of him even though they wanted to. MU screwed themselves. Larry Williams was brought in to get rid of Buzz but couldn’t do it through dismissal.
Many times massive buyouts are paid by boosters. Buzz had the boosters in his back pocket. He knew that and flaunted it, especially when Pilar’s went down.
How do you know Larry Williams was brought in to get rid of Coach Williams?
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Pakuni,
Please reread my post. I cleary stated that DePaul was worse. De Paul was 8-44 in Buzz's last 3 years at MU and finished last in the Big East all three years. Tech was 10-42 and finished tied for last once and last twice. Not as bad (which I admitted) but comparable.
Tap seems right here, at least if recent history was 2 years. Though records is not what I would look at since schedules matter. Using a neutral source like KenPom the average rankings are 179 Depaul to 172 Va Tech.
However, a bit longer view would lean to Mr Pakuni. Three years out Depaul 169, Va Tech 142. Four years out, Depaul 176, Va Tech 117. Five years out, Depaul 175 and Va Tech 102.
DePaul has been a dumpster fire for more than a decade. Va Tech, to Mr. Pakuni's point, was pretty good only a few years before coach Williams took over. Coach Williams knew Va Tech had some decent recent past which makes the rebuild easier.
Ken Pom Ratings
depaul Va Tech
2007 50 37
2008 114 34
2009 206 72
2010 170 47
2011 197 40
2012 150 83
2013 174 169
2014 183 174
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Billy
I hold Marquette and their donors in far higher regard to agree with you. If you believe that all donors were Buzz’s pocket, than MU was a mini-Louisville, minus an NC.
I might have my gripes with decisions made by the BOT, but not being prepared to buyout a bad apple had to be planned for. For the record, I said when Buzz was hired they did not do their homework and were opening themselves up for potential trouble.
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Tap seems right here, at least if recent history was 2 years. Though records is not what I would look at since schedules matter. Using a neutral source like KenPom the average rankings are 179 Depaul to 172 Va Tech.
However, a bit longer view would lean to Mr Pakuni. Three years out Depaul 169, Va Tech 142. Four years out, Depaul 176, Va Tech 117. Five years out, Depaul 175 and Va Tech 102.
DePaul has been a dumpster fire for more than a decade. Va Tech, to Mr. Pakuni's point, was pretty good only a few years before coach Williams took over. Coach Williams knew Va Tech had some decent recent past which makes the rebuild easier.
Ken Pom Ratings
depaul Va Tech
2007 50 37
2008 114 34
2009 206 72
2010 170 47
2011 197 40
2012 150 83
2013 174 169
2014 183 174
I'm hesitant to re-hash this, but the post to which I responded to from Lenny stated "Virginia Tech pre Buzz was DePaul minus the Meyer years. One NCAA appearance in 10 years, two in 28." Given those parameters, I was presuming he didn't mean "Virginia Tech in the two seasons pre Buzz, and only the two seasons pre Buzz" so I took a longer view and looked back from the time they joined the ACC.
If Lenny did indeed mean "Virginia Tech in the two seasons pre Buzz, and only the two seasons pre Buzz," then he's right - they did have two DePaul-like seasons. I tend to think evaluating the history of a program requires looking beyond a two-year window, but that's me.
Also, UNC was a trash program before Roy Williams (see: Matt Doherty's last two years).
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Not going to get into this battle but I do chuckle over the constant talking about VaTech. As someone who spends a fair bit of time in Blacksburg for work, and works with an untold amount of Tech grads, Scoop talks more about their B-Ball program than they do. Half of them don't even think about their basketball program until March rolls around. And exiting in the first round means it is short lived.
It's called OCD. They rarely discuss any other BE team or even ND. It is all about VT and Depaul, it seems it's all we know. I'm with you, don't get involved, it's bad for the AFib.
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Mack officially was replaced by his longtime assistant, Travis Steele.
If form holds with X (and Butler), Steele will do a fine job.
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I'm hesitant to re-hash this, but the post to which I responded to from Lenny stated "Virginia Tech pre Buzz was DePaul minus the Meyer years. One NCAA appearance in 10 years, two in 28." Given those parameters, I was presuming he didn't mean "Virginia Tech in the two seasons pre Buzz, and only the two seasons pre Buzz" so I took a longer view and looked back from the time they joined the ACC.
If Lenny did indeed mean "Virginia Tech in the two seasons pre Buzz, and only the two seasons pre Buzz," then he's right - they did have two DePaul-like seasons. I tend to think evaluating the history of a program requires looking beyond a two-year window, but that's me.
Also, UNC was a trash program before Roy Williams (see: Matt Doherty's last two years).
Last three years, not two. Last place, last place and tied for last place. Conference records in those seasons were 2-18, 4-14, 4-12. Almost Depaul, not quite (as I have now said 3 times. Their previous 15 years they made the NCAA tournament 1 time. If you think that parallels UNC closer than DePaul we'll agree to disagree.
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Last three years, not two. Last place, last place and tied for last place. Conference records in those seasons were 2-18, 4-14, 4-12. Almost Depaul, not quite (as I have now said 3 times. Their previous 15 years they made the NCAA tournament 1 time. If you think that parallels UNC closer than DePaul we'll agree to disagree.
Three years before Coach Williams arrived at Va Tech, the Hokies went 16-17 while Depaul was 12-19. Va tech was ranked 83rd, Depaul 150th.
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Three years before Coach Williams arrived at Va Tech, the Hokies went 16-17 while Depaul was 12-19. Va tech was ranked 83rd, Depaul 150th.
Yes, 16-17, 4-12 in the ACC, tied for last. The three years before Buzz took over they won 10 conference game and lost 44. So bad, then worse, then awful - the program had gone from mediocre to dumpster fire - with very little in their history to suggest much of a rebound.
People here like to complain about the program Wojo inherited - a program whose 3 most recent season included conference records of 9-9, 14-4 and 14-4 and a S16 and an E8 - and a very rich history. The two situations weren't close.
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In an alternative reality, Buzz didn't leave MU for VTI. Buzz had relative success and then left for UL.
Yeah... but that's also the reality where Buzz eats his own poop.
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I feel like this thread is just full of wild guesses and misinformation at this point.
Several Scoopers majored in Wild Guesses and Misinformation during their MU daze!