MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: goldeneagle91114 on March 04, 2018, 08:07:13 PM
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Can Wojo finally...win 3 conference games in a row? remember, he has not done it yet, and DePual ruined our last chance in Chicago. I hope wojo has his team ready.
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It is our time. Go Marquette!
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And should a Wednesday game at the BET count?
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Winning streaks no matta.
You play each individual game, and try to win each individual game.
We got this!
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Winning streaks no matta.
You play each individual game, and try to win each individual game.
We got this!
Just win, Baby (Brew)!
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Can someone find a stat on how many teams in the big east have won 3 in a row? Besides Butler, Xavier or Nova I'd like to know how many times Creighton, Providence & Seton Hall have accomplished this. 10-8 last year and 9-9 this year is solid, the cupboard was bare when he arrived. I do expect more considering the amount of resources invested into Marquette Basketball, but it's a tough conference from top to bottom.
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Can someone find a stat on how many teams in the big east have won 3 in a row? Besides Butler, Xavier or Nova I'd like to know how many times Creighton, Providence & Seton Hall have accomplished this. 10-8 last year and 9-9 this year is solid, the cupboard was bare when he arrived. I do expect more considering the amount of resources invested into Marquette Basketball, but it's a tough conference from top to bottom.
This year, every BE team has done it except Georgetown, DePaul and Marquette.
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This year, every BE team has done it except Georgetown, DePaul and Marquette.
Well then, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that St. John's had a better season than we did.
And also that we sucked last season.
Because 3-game winning streaks ... I mean, what could possibly matter more than those ... except maybe FT percentage?!?!?!
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Well then, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that St. John's had a better season than we did.
And also that we sucked last season.
Because 3-game winning streaks ... I mean, what could possibly matter more than those ... except maybe FT percentage?!?!?!
Obviously it doesn't say anything about the season on the whole, but it is a fairly low bar to set for consistency. The fact that we still haven't won 3 in a row in the Wojo era may not mean anything in the long run, but it sure is frustrating.
I'd just about bet the farm that we reach this milestone on Wednesday, though, and Wojo can finally have the monkey off his back.
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The never winning 3 in a row thing I guess is annoying? But it's not a big deal...
You can go 12-6 in the BEast every year and never win 3 in a row. 2-1 every three games would be fine with me. So who cares. If we won 5 straight then lost 13... atleast we won 3 straight or more!!!
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Wojo's won 4 of 5 a couple times. Not winning 3 in a row is kind of a fluky coincidence.
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Wojo's won 4 of 5 a couple times. Not winning 3 in a row is kind of a fluky coincidence.
Since Wojo has been at MU, Marquette is the only BE team who has NOT won three BE games in a row. Even DePaul has accomplished this historic feat.
#justwinbaby
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Obviously it doesn't say anything about the season on the whole, but it is a fairly low bar to set for consistency. The fact that we still haven't won 3 in a row in the Wojo era may not mean anything in the long run, but it sure is frustrating.
I'd just about bet the farm that we reach this milestone on Wednesday, though, and Wojo can finally have the monkey off his back.
Bingo. The point is just not the arbitrary winning three in a row milestone, it is about putting together a run. Having some sustained success against conference foes and quality opponents.
We are nearing the end of Wojo's fourth year, it has yet to occur. That's troubling to me. Outside of his first year, its been start/stop, start/stop the past three seasons. And, the opportunities have been there. The end of last year was a perfect example. That team went into the BET playing its best basketball, but was a no-show in NYC and was no-match for South Carolina.
Right now, MU has won 4 out of the last 5, but of course, that one loss is a soul-crushing defeat to hapless DePaul. That's just how the Wojo era has gone so far. In my eyes, this a big week for Wojo. Here's another opportunity to put together a run, with a big prize on the line.
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Can someone find a stat on how many teams in the big east have won 3 in a row? Besides Butler, Xavier or Nova I'd like to know how many times Creighton, Providence & Seton Hall have accomplished this. 10-8 last year and 9-9 this year is solid, the cupboard was bare when he arrived. I do expect more considering the amount of resources invested into Marquette Basketball, but it's a tough conference from top to bottom.
#FakeNews - This whole empty cupboard nonsense has to stop.
And as you learned below, every team has won three conference games in a row (including DePaul) since Wojo arrived.
Nothing wrong with being supportive of our coach, but let's not make things up and try to rationalize/excuse the very mediocre performance thus far.
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#FakeNews - This whole empty cupboard nonsense has to stop.
And as you learned below, every team has won three conference games in a row (including DePaul) since Wojo arrived.
Nothing wrong with being supportive of our coach, but let's not make things up and try to rationalize/excuse the very mediocre performance thus far.
Find me a team that missed the NIT, lost 6/7 of its top players (by mpg), it's coach, and all but one of its incoming recruits and made the NCAA within 2 years. Bonus points if the one returning player was the same caliber as Derrick Wilson.
If you saw that on any other roster you would say the cupboard was barren.
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#FakeNews - This whole empty cupboard nonsense has to stop.
And as you learned below, every team has won three conference games in a row (including DePaul) since Wojo arrived.
Nothing wrong with being supportive of our coach, but let's not make things up and try to rationalize/excuse the very mediocre performance thus far.
Your weird obsession with the high school rankings of some of those players has to stop as well. There was no legitimate returning production. The players you're obsessing over did not pan out, like many of the top 100 guys Buzz brought in. Or are you gonna tell me we had deep bench talent when Erik Williams and Jamail Jones were on the team as well?
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Find me a team that missed the NIT, lost 6/7 of its top players (by mpg), it's coach, and all but one of its incoming recruits and made the NCAA within 2 years. Bonus points if the one returning player was the same caliber as Derrick Wilson.
If you saw that on any other roster you would say the cupboard was barren.
Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
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#FakeNews - This whole empty cupboard nonsense has to stop.
And as you learned below, every team has won three conference games in a row (including DePaul) since Wojo arrived.
Nothing wrong with being supportive of our coach, but let's not make things up and try to rationalize/excuse the very mediocre performance thus far.
Sorry but the team was sorely lacking in high-end talent when Wojo came on board. To say otherwise is just not true.
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
I find it unceasingly humorous that you continue to shred Derrick Wilson and laud John Dawson, despite the former being a far better player in the Big East than the latter was in the Big South.
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
Key word is they went on to have solid careers. They weren't seniors and juniors which is when most players with those rankings hit their stride.
Mayo: Head case who didn't deserve to be at MU to begin with.
Burton: Had a red shirt year before he put it together
Taylor: Red shirt year before he put it together at a mid major
Luke: not available till mid season and had a shoulder injury
Dawson: averaged 8.5 and 3 as a senior in a horrendous conference. Seriously considering that solid?
Starting to see how it took them years of development? It's not like they were seniors that year.
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
Oh good...this stupid ass debate yet again. Might as well just have at it and get yet another banning over with.
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Winning streaks no matta.
You play each individual game, and try to win each individual game.
We got this!
The no matta fad jumped the shark long ago. This might be the best example. *waits for wins no matta post at some point in the future*
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Oh good...this stupid ass debate yet again. Might as well just have at it and get yet another banning over with.
Yep - Takes two sides for any debate, right ATL? But, all my bad. It is simply a dumb comment to say Wojo walked into an empty cupboard and trainwreck of a program.
I find it unceasingly humorous that you continue to shred Derrick Wilson and laud John Dawson, despite the former being a far better player in the Big East than the latter was in the Big South.
LOL.
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
Dawson was a good kid, but seriously.
As a senior, John Dawson shot 38.7% and had a 2.7/2.0 (1.35/1) assist/TO ratio.
As a senior, Derrick Wilson shot 41.2% and had a 4.7/1.6 (2.94/1)assist/TO ratio.
And Derrick played against MUCH better competition.
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Dawson was a good kid, but seriously.
As a senior, John Dawson shot 38.7% and had a 2.7/2.0 (1.35/1) assist/TO ratio.
As a senior, Derrick Wilson shot 41.2% and had a 4.7/1.6 (2.94/1)assist/TO ratio.
And Derrick played against MUCH better competition.
I understand your position. Here is what you aren't taking into consideration:
Dawson is playing in the NBA G-League, which, if you look at rosters are filled with guys who were all very good college players.
Dawson arrived at Liberty while they were rated 333 the year before he became eligible. They improved to 279 his Junior year. 211 his Senior Year.
Teams played largely a Box and 1 defense on Dawson as a senior, as he was the focal point of the team as a Junior and had a strong Junior year.
Junior year stats: 26% Usage. 55% eFG. 20% DRebound Rate. 25.9 Assist RAte. One negative: 24.9% TO Rate.
The team's record with Derrick at the helm speaks for itself. Great kid. Hard worker. Kind of kid you'd want to date your daughter. BUT. He was brutal as a 35 minute per game PG.
I'll stop here, and won't further engage on the topic as I know some here get frustrated/maddened. I firmly believe, however, it is a great misrepresentation to suggest Wojo walked into an empty cupboard and trainwreck of a program.
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I understand your position. Here is what you aren't taking into consideration:
Dawson is playing in the NBA G-League, which, if you look at rosters are filled with guys who were all very good college players.
Dawson arrived at Liberty while they were rated 333 the year before he became eligible. They improved to 279 his Junior year. 211 his Senior Year.
Teams played largely a Box and 1 defense on Dawson as a senior, as he was the focal point of the team as a Junior and had a strong Junior year.
Junior year stats: 26% Usage. 55% eFG. 20% DRebound Rate. 25.9 Assist RAte. One negative: 24.9% TO Rate.
The team's record with Derrick at the helm speaks for itself. Great kid. Hard worker. Kind of kid you'd want to date your daughter. BUT. He was brutal as a 35 minute per game PG.
I'll stop here, and won't further engage on the topic as I know some here get frustrated/maddened. I firmly believe, however, it is a great misrepresentation to suggest Wojo walked into an empty cupboard and trainwreck of a program.
:o
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson. Absolutely NO way to win with that empty cupboard, sh$thole of a Top 100/Top 50 recruit cupboard. All of Deonte, Steve, Luke, JJJ, Duane, Dawson went on to have solid careers. Wojo chose to kick Mayo off the team - his prerogative. Buzz was able to make it work for 3 years with Todd.
Now, you know how I feel about Derrick: No teams stands a snow balls chance in hell of winning if you choose to play Derrick Wilson as your PG for 35 minutes per game - but that was Wojo's choice...he had both Duane and Carlino at his disposal. Buzz doing it the year prior was his big F-You to admin on the way out the door - granted Dawson wasn't as good of option as having Duane or Carlino. Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
Got it. You can't find one.
A few alternative facts I'd like to address:
Mayo was not Wojo's prerogative. He was off the team even if Buzz had stayed or if Wojo had wanted him.
Of all the players you listed, only Deonte went on to be a high caliber player, and he transferred because of his mother's death, outside of Wojo's control.
Steve had a very good senior season for a low major program after getting surgery on his shoulder. John Dawson was an average starter at an even lower major program.
Buzz couldn't anything valuable out of Juan Anderson in three years so I'm not sure why you included him. He was a necessary starter on a team that barely cracked the top 100.
Luke and JJJ ended up being solid players as you put it. But even as seniors the best they amounted to was being starters (not even the best starters) on a 10 seed team. Luke also was repeatedly affected by shoulder injuries.
Duane had great potential, could have been the other high caliber player along with Deonte. Unfortunately, his legs exploded repeatedly and it impacted his game drastically. Duane showed his potential early in the season here at TAMU...and it waned as his legs started to wear down, eventually ending his season (which I still think Coach Kennedy is to blame for that. Unacceptable how handled that injury). Nothing Wojo could do about that either.
And no one called any of those players "sh*tholes" as you put it. They just were who they were.
And Buzz was not giving the administration "a middle finger" as you put it by playing Derrick. The reality is that Duane was redshirtting because of injury (and Junior Cadougan) and Derrick was better than Dawson. There were no other PGs on the roster. His only option was to ride Derrick. Which falls on him for poor roster construction.
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Ugh. Again? It was a very talented roster inherited that included: Deonte Burton, Todd Mayo, Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JuJuan Johnson, and John Dawson.
So the same roster (minus Fischer, plus Jamil, Davante and Otule) that Buzz had the year before? You know...the one he didn't even make the NIT with?
OK sport.
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Anybody with a fleck of intuition could see Buzz was clearly off and checked out his last year at MU. And sure as sh$t, 4-days after the season was over he inked the deal to go to VaTech.
Buzz was out the door the year before. Having a roster crater is at least a two year process (See Gard, Greg) and Buzz was very close to leaving for SMU. He was coasting for a number of years and that's what put us where we were when Wojo took over.
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I understand your position. Here is what you aren't taking into consideration:
Dawson is playing in the NBA G-League, which, if you look at rosters are filled with guys who were all very good college players.
Dawson arrived at Liberty while they were rated 333 the year before he became eligible. They improved to 279 his Junior year. 211 his Senior Year.
Teams played largely a Box and 1 defense on Dawson as a senior, as he was the focal point of the team as a Junior and had a strong Junior year.
Junior year stats: 26% Usage. 55% eFG. 20% DRebound Rate. 25.9 Assist RAte. One negative: 24.9% TO Rate.
The team's record with Derrick at the helm speaks for itself. Great kid. Hard worker. Kind of kid you'd want to date your daughter. BUT. He was brutal as a 35 minute per game PG.
I'll stop here, and won't further engage on the topic as I know some here get frustrated/maddened. I firmly believe, however, it is a great misrepresentation to suggest Wojo walked into an empty cupboard and trainwreck of a program.
You make a lot of fair points here. But you lose credibility with lies like the bolded. I watched some Liberty games that year. And there was never a box and 1 employed. Ever.
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no, No, NO!!!! I refuse to have my Scoop ruined once again by a serial poster with an ish on Derrick Wilson (who did, actually, date my daughter and is a helluva guy). Especially not in a thread that has a completely different subject so I can't avoid the fight. Mods, please lock this thread. And if you are not going to ban Ners (again), please have a stern talk with him as to what will happen if he ever mentions Derrick's name again.
Thank you.
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no, No, NO!!!! I refuse to have my Scoop ruined once again by a serial poster with an ish on Derrick Wilson (who did, actually, date my daughter and is a helluva guy). Especially not in a thread that has a completely different subject so I can't avoid the fight. Mods, please lock this thread. And if you are not going to ban Ners (again), please have a stern talk with him as to what will happen if he ever mentions Derrick's name again.
Thank you.
LOL - So that explains it. Understandable. Have no doubt Derrick is a helluva a guy.
Let's get it back on topic Mom: Did you think that in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure he'd be the only coach in the conference to NOT achieve 3 conference wins in a row? Thankfully he did guide us to the NCAA last year getting major contributions from the empty cupboard he was left with.
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You make a lot of fair points here. But you lose credibility with lies like the bolded. I watched some Liberty games that year. And there was never a box and 1 employed. Ever.
Not a lie. Was employed frequently Eagle.
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Did you think that in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure he'd be the only coach in the conference to NOT achieve 3 conference wins in a row?
Yeah we finished pretty low on this metric in KenPom
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LOL - So that explains it. Understandable. Have no doubt Derrick is a helluva a guy.
Let's get it back on topic Mom: Did you think that in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure he'd be the only coach in the conference to NOT achieve 3 conference wins in a row? Thankfully he did guide us to the NCAA last year getting major contributions from the empty cupboard he was left with.
Wojo is not the only coach to not have gotten a three game winning streak in the BEast.
Wojo will be fine, the program will be fine, move along.
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I understand your position. Here is what you aren't taking into consideration:
Dawson is playing in the NBA G-League, which, if you look at rosters are filled with guys who were all very good college players.
Dawson arrived at Liberty while they were rated 333 the year before he became eligible. They improved to 279 his Junior year. 211 his Senior Year.
Teams played largely a Box and 1 defense on Dawson as a senior, as he was the focal point of the team as a Junior and had a strong Junior year.
Junior year stats: 26% Usage. 55% eFG. 20% DRebound Rate. 25.9 Assist RAte. One negative: 24.9% TO Rate.
The team's record with Derrick at the helm speaks for itself. Great kid. Hard worker. Kind of kid you'd want to date your daughter. BUT. He was brutal as a 35 minute per game PG.
I'll stop here, and won't further engage on the topic as I know some here get frustrated/maddened. I firmly believe, however, it is a great misrepresentation to suggest Wojo walked into an empty cupboard and trainwreck of a program.
Seriously? This again? Make it stop.
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Wojo is not the only coach to not have gotten a three game winning streak in the BEast.
Wojo will be fine, the program will be fine, move along.
You're right, but I'd prefer to avoid falling into classifications with Depaul whenever possible. Get the W on Wednesday and check this off the "things a winning coach should be doing" list. Simple as that.
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# of wins in a row doesn't really matter. Win percentage (or number, depending on how you look at it) and win quality determines post-season playing opportunity.
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You're right, but I'd prefer to avoid falling into classifications with Depaul whenever possible. Get the W on Wednesday and check this off the "things a winning coach should be doing" list. Simple as that.
Agreed, I'm just trying to keep a level head and stay calm, as people on both sides of the argument seem content on simply escalating things.
P.S. the coach I was referencing does not coach at DePaul, although he is in the Hall of Fame.
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# of wins in a row doesn't really matter. Win percentage (or number, depending on how you look at it) and win quality determines post-season playing opportunity.
There's no award for winning X number of games in a row, but consistency is typically considered a good thing. Good teams tend to not drop unexpected games to the lower-tier teams in the conference, so striving to be able to be at that level does inevitably require a team to put together a winning streak or two throughout the conference schedule. We aren't a bad team and Wojo isn't a bad coach because we haven't won 3 in a row, but that stat does show that we probably need to be more consistent in order to improve our record.
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LOL - So that explains it. Understandable. Have no doubt Derrick is a helluva a guy.
Let's get it back on topic Mom: Did you think that in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure he'd be the only coach in the conference to NOT achieve 3 conference wins in a row? Thankfully he did guide us to the NCAA last year getting major contributions from the empty cupboard he was left with.
Still don't get it ners.
What does t matter that he hasn't won 3 in a row? He could literally go 2-1 (win-win-loss) every three games and still go 12-6. 3 in a row doesn't matter.
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Still don't get it ners.
What does t matter that he hasn't won 3 in a row? He could literally go 2-1 (win-win-loss) every three games and still go 12-6. 3 in a row doesn't matter.
It is just a little troubling that 4-years in, we are the only program who hasn’t won 3 conference games in a row. We’ve had multiple 3+ game losing streaks, however.
I understand your point of you go 2-1 all conference season long you are 12-6. I’d gladly take that level of consistency. Just a bit frustrated that we’ve yet to be able to string together a good run of Big East wins under Wojo. Seems every time we seem to take a step forward, we take a crushing defeat to set us back.
The guy is recruiting really well and we are a fun team to watch. I’m pleased in that level. Just wish I saw more* progress as an in-game tactician/strategist.
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It is just a little troubling that 4-years in, we are the only program who hasn’t won 3 conference games in a row. We’ve had multiple 3+ game losing streaks, however.
I understand your point of you go 2-1 all conference season long you are 12-6. I’d gladly take that level of consistency. Just a bit frustrated that we’ve yet to be able to string together a good run of Big East wins under Wojo. Seems every time we seem to take a step forward, we take a crushing defeat to set us back.
The guy is recruiting really well and we are a fun team to watch. I’m pleased in that level. Just wish I saw more* progress as an in-game tactician/strategist.
Ok. Very fair reasoning. I can't blame that thought process at all man. Yeah it can definitely be frustrating.
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It is just a little troubling that 4-years in, we are the only program who hasn’t won 3 conference games in a row. We’ve had multiple 3+ game losing streaks, however.
I understand your point of you go 2-1 all conference season long you are 12-6. I’d gladly take that level of consistency. Just a bit frustrated that we’ve yet to be able to string together a good run of Big East wins under Wojo. Seems every time we seem to take a step forward, we take a crushing defeat to set us back.
The guy is recruiting really well and we are a fun team to watch. I’m pleased in that level. Just wish I saw more* progress as an in-game tactician/strategist.
Good run doesn't have to mean long run. Beating two top 10 ten teams back to back, one on the road is a good run, just not one that was sustained very long. How many programs have beaten two top 10 teams in a week since Wojo was hired. Since St. Johns did it this year does it mean that its easy to do. When you take completely arbitrary standards, you will be able to find something that 95% of teams haven't done.
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Good run doesn't have to mean long run. Beating two top 10 ten teams back to back, one on the road is a good run, just not one that was sustained very long. How many programs have beaten two top 10 teams in a week since Wojo was hired. Since St. Johns did it this year does it mean that its easy to do. When you take completely arbitrary standards, you will be able to find something that 95% of teams haven't done.
I think the point of the 3 win streak is that it's not a very high bar to set for consistency. Sure, 3 games is a bit arbitrary, but it is something we would normally think of as being a piece of cake for MU or other quality programs. It's not a huge milestone necessarily, but it does show how up and down we've been the last few years. Like a lot of other stats, it's more of a talking point than a truly meaningful metric.
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/12ZDIx1Mw1cXVm/giphy.gif)
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LOL - So that explains it. Understandable. Have no doubt Derrick is a helluva a guy.
Let's get it back on topic Mom: Did you think that in Year 4 of Wojo's tenure he'd be the only coach in the conference to NOT achieve 3 conference wins in a row? Thankfully he did guide us to the NCAA last year getting major contributions from the empty cupboard he was left with.
Last year there were 3 contributors on the team that remained from Wojo's first year. They had developed over three seasons. And somehow you're trying to equate that to the overall talent that was on the team in 14-15.
Hilarious.
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
Nice
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/5s.gif)
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
Good effort. No doubt it was brilliant coaching to start Sandy Cohen Game 1 of his career ahead of Deonte Burton, and Derrick Wilson at PG for 35 minutes instead of Duane (or Carlino). Surefire way to coach your way to a 4-14 campaign in your inaugural season as a head coach.
Genius in fact, to set the bar so low Year 1, that we are now to be thrilled in Year 4 by having this group "right in the bubble mix." Guess I just had higher expectations for Wojo, given his Coach K pedigree, and watching all of O'Neill, Deane, Crean and Buzz achieve more success in 4-years.
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People complain that Markus can't be a PG becasue he doesn't pass, but think Carlino could run point? He would get the inbounds pass dribble up the court and launch. We would end the season with zero paint touches and zero assists.
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I've been down this rabbit hole too often. Profile/buddies-ignore list/add to ignore list. Done.
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I can't wait until next to compare Wojo year 5 vs Crean's year 5. In two years, it'll be Wojo year 6 vs TC year 6 vs Buzz year 6.
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
Post of the season. Shut Scoop down, Lazar's just cut down the nets.
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I've been down this rabbit hole too often. Profile/buddies-ignore list/add to ignore list. Done.
Doesn't work; quoted too many times.
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I've been down this rabbit hole too often. Profile/buddies-ignore list/add to ignore list. Done.
Might want to change your signature. Nothing "Warrior" about being so thin skinned you can't handle a dissenting point of view. I'll continue to at times to enjoy reading your takes, while at times disagreeing. This is a message board comprised of opinions, after all.
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Doesn't work; quoted too many times.
It sure does help, though.
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Doesn't work; quoted too many times.
Doesn't hurt.
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Might want to change your signature. Nothing "Warrior" about being so thin skinned you can't handle a dissenting point of view. I'll continue to at times to enjoy reading your takes, while at times disagreeing. This is a message board comprised of opinions, after all.
If by dissenting point of view you mean "continuously debunked junk science basketball opinion predicated on entirely made-up metrics and excessive goal post shifting" than you are right neither Tower nor most people on this board can handle that point of view.
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If by dissenting point of view you mean "continuously debunked junk science basketball opinion predicated on entirely made-up metrics and excessive goal post shifting" than you are right neither Tower nor most people on this board can handle that point of view.
I, for one, don't get how worked up about 6 people get over this. I would assume most people could not care less. Which is why only a small handful bring this up ad nauseum while the rest just read and move on.
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If by dissenting point of view you mean "continuously debunked junk science basketball opinion predicated on entirely made-up metrics and excessive goal post shifting" than you are right neither Tower nor most people on this board can handle that point of view.
You are welcome to your opinion. I support my positions with KenPom stats. Always. But yes, I do not look at 4 possessions of zone sprinkled into a 70 possession game, or for example, four separate, two minute segments of PT, as being relevant sample sizes to assess a player or basketball strategy's effectiveness. Call that "junk science basketball," if you like.
End of the day the "most people" on the board you reference are about the same 8 posters...who feel Wojo is above reproach on ANY matter.
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I, for one, don't get how worked up about 6 people get over this. I would assume most people could not care less. Which is why only a small handful bring this up ad nauseum while the rest just read and move on.
That's just because you're a better person than most of us. We aspire to be you.
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Oh good...this stupid ass debate yet again. Might as well just have at it and get yet another banning over with.
+1,000. Same stupid endless argument.
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That's just because you're a better person than most of us. We aspire to be you.
(https://pics.me.me/shoot-for-the-moon-even-if-you-miss-youll-land-5676030.png)
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You are welcome to your opinion. I support my positions with KenPom stats. Always. But yes, I do not look at 4 possessions of zone sprinkled into a 70 possession game, or for example, four separate, two minute segments of PT, as being relevant sample sizes to assess a player or basketball strategy's effectiveness. Call that "junk science basketball," if you like.
End of the day the "most people" on the board you reference are about the same 8 posters...who feel Wojo is above reproach on ANY matter.
My bad, I didn't look hard enough for the 3 game winning streak metric on KenPom
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Post of the season. Shut Scoop down, Lazar's just cut down the nets.
Absolutely agree. After all we are naming and criticizing MU students on a "blog".
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You are welcome to your opinion. I support my positions with KenPom stats. Always. But yes, I do not look at 4 possessions of zone sprinkled into a 70 possession game, or for example, four separate, two minute segments of PT, as being relevant sample sizes to assess a player or basketball strategy's effectiveness. Call that "junk science basketball," if you like.
End of the day the "most people" on the board you reference are about the same 8 posters...who feel Wojo is above reproach on ANY matter.
It's not just 4 possessions of zone in a 70 possession game. He has seen his team play hundreds of thousands of possessions of zone and M2M in practice. He knows which defense his team is better at. Sometimes the match-up will call for a different look from defense and he will try it in a game. If it works he will stick with it, if it doesn't he will adjust.
I understand some coaches are ride or die with one defensive strategy. It doesn't matter if they are getting shredded, they will stick with their base defense throughout a game. I prefer coaches who make adjustments but there have been many successful ones that stick to one defense. I don't know any coach that is ride or die with their second best defense.
And Wojo is not beyond reproach. I have detailed many things I don't agree with or don't understandthat he has done. If I had to grade hison the court performance id give him a solid C. Hell, I agree with you about not maximizing the midgets together. I just don't think zone defense is one of those things.
It's not that you have a different opinion. It's not that you criticize Wojo. It's that you honest to goodness believe that you "see the game better" then a man who has been doing this job for 20+ years. It's one thing to disagree with an expert in the field, it's another to claim you're a bigger expert when you have no background or experience to back that up.
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It's not just 4 possessions of zone in a 70 possession game. He has seen his team play hundreds of thousands of possessions of zone and M2M in practice. He knows which defense his team is better at. Sometimes the match-up will call for a different look from defense and he will try it in a game. If it works he will stick with it, if it doesn't he will adjust.
I understand some coaches are ride or die with one defensive strategy. It doesn't matter if they are getting shredded, they will stick with their base defense throughout a game. I prefer coaches who make adjustments but there have been many successful ones that stick to one defense. I don't know any coach that is ride or die with their second best defense.
And Wojo is not beyond reproach. I have detailed many things I don't agree with or don't understandthat he has done. If I had to grade hison the court performance id give him a solid C. Hell, I agree with you about not maximizing the midgets together. I just don't think zone defense is one of those things.
It's not that you have a different opinion. It's not that you criticize Wojo. It's that you honest to goodness believe that you "see the game better" then a man who has been doing this job for 20+ years. It's one thing to disagree with an expert in the field, it's another to claim you're a bigger expert when you have no background or experience to back that up.
Are you forgetting the dunk heard round the world?
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It's not just 4 possessions of zone in a 70 possession game. He has seen his team play hundreds of thousands of possessions of zone and M2M in practice. He knows which defense his team is better at. Sometimes the match-up will call for a different look from defense and he will try it in a game. If it works he will stick with it, if it doesn't he will adjust.
I understand some coaches are ride or die with one defensive strategy. It doesn't matter if they are getting shredded, they will stick with their base defense throughout a game. I prefer coaches who make adjustments but there have been many successful ones that stick to one defense. I don't know any coach that is ride or die with their second best defense.
And Wojo is not beyond reproach. I have detailed many things I don't agree with or don't understandthat he has done. If I had to grade hison the court performance id give him a solid C. Hell, I agree with you about not maximizing the midgets together. I just don't think zone defense is one of those things.
It's not that you have a different opinion. It's not that you criticize Wojo. It's that you honest to goodness believe that you "see the game better" then a man who has been doing this job for 20+ years. It's one thing to disagree with an expert in the field, it's another to claim you're a bigger expert when you have no background or experience to back that up.
I highly doubt Wojo has seen his team play zone defense hundreds of thousands of times in practice. In fact, I'd estimate he's spent less than 10% of his defensive practice time on zone. It would be foolish to spend 50% of your time practicing a defense that you only use 5% of the time.
I'm not claiming to be a bigger expert than Wojo. Have never said that. I do have real concerns about some of his in-game coaching and playing time decisions. I keep harping on the Burton/Cohen thing, because how anybody in their right mind could think Cohen was a better player Day 1 on campus at MU than was Burton, coming off an All Big East Freshman campaign - just baffling.
I was glad to see Wojo use Cain A LOT more against Creighton. In fact I posted about it at halftime of that game - wanted to see a lot more Cain/Theo, than we saw in first half (regardless of what defense we were playing.) That was a good adjustment. Cain is a huge X-factor for this team. He alone can make the team markedly better on the defensive end/d-rebounding.
I stand by the assertion, that when you are physically outmatched in terms of size, strength, speed - zone is a better defensive approach.
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I just wanted to say Wojo's done a helluva job this year. The cupboard is practically bare, given that there are only two top 100 players on the roster. Yet Wojo has this group right in the bubble mix.
Wojo has also done a great job coaching up those two top 100 players. After all, Howard was ranked lower than Johnson, Wilson, and Burton. Hauser ranked lower than Cohen, Anderson, Jones, and Williams. But in just two years, Wojo turned Howard into a 2nd team all-conference performer and Hauser is very good as well.
The growth Wojo has shown as a coach is tremendous. Year 1, the cupboard was overflowing with talent and MU went 13-19, 4-14 in BE. But now, with barely any talent on the roster, 18-12, 9-9 BE, and in the tourney mix. This upward trend has me really excited. Imagine the results once Wojo can restock the cupboard!
A rare post that literally made me laugh out loud. Drop the mic, Lazar!
Now, as to the 3-game conference win streak thing that a few are fixated on ...
Sure, I understand it's one of many signs of consistency, but it really doesn't "mean" much. The fact that DePaul has had a 3-game winning streak shows it's neither a guarantee of success nor a sign of it.
Wojo has had several 4-1 stretches, including two last season that got us into the NCAA tournament. Would some folks here rather him have gone 3-2 during those stretches as long as the 3 came in a row? How dopey.
To think that a win Wednesday would lift this "monkey" off Wojo's back ...
If there's an alleged monkey on somebody's back but nobody knows it exists, is there really a monkey there?
I'm pretty happy to "settle for" this season's 6-1 streak that included wins over Vermont, Wisconsin, NIU and American to close out the NC schedule, a tough 4-point loss to X, and then wins over GT and at Providence ... although that conclusively means Wojo is a failure on the 3 Game Monkey Meter.
And of course the other thing wrong with this thread is it inspired the latest box set of Ners' Worstest Hits.
Mommy, make it stop!
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Just win, baby!
BEAT DEPAUL
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I highly doubt Wojo has seen his team play zone defense hundreds of thousands of times in practice. In fact, I'd estimate he's spent less than 10% of his defensive practice time on zone. It would be foolish to spend 50% of your time practicing a defense that you only use 5% of the time.
I'm not claiming to be a bigger expert than Wojo. Have never said that. I do have real concerns about some of his in-game coaching and playing time decisions. I keep harping on the Burton/Cohen thing, because how anybody in their right mind could think Cohen was a better player Day 1 on campus at MU than was Burton, coming off an All Big East Freshman campaign - just baffling.
I was glad to see Wojo use Cain A LOT more against Creighton. In fact I posted about it at halftime of that game - wanted to see a lot more Cain/Theo, than we saw in first half (regardless of what defense we were playing.) That was a good adjustment. Cain is a huge X-factor for this team. He alone can make the team markedly better on the defensive end/d-rebounding.
I stand by the assertion, that when you are physically outmatched in terms of size, strength, speed - zone is a better defensive approach.
Definitely a reasonable response. You are right the team spends most of their time practicing M2M but even spending less than 10% of practice time in a zone defense translates to thousands of possessions over the course of a full year.
On the Burton/Cohen thing, I think that has been vastly overplayed. Sandy played more minutes than Burton in exactly two games, the first two of the season. In those two games Sandy averaged 8.5 ppg, 3 rpg, 2 apg and was shooting an eFG% of 80%. Deonte on the other hand averaged, 6 ppg, 0.5 rpg, 0.0 apg, and was shooting an eFG% of 44.4%. Deonte was also limited by foul trouble in one of those games. Sandy had two good games and Deonte had one bad game and a game limited by foul trouble so Sandy got more minutes. I don't have the data in front of me, but memory tells me that Sandy was playing better D then Deonte. After that, Burton played more minutes in each of the six remaining games. As has been established, Wojo likes to ride the hot hand....just like he did with Cain against Creighton.
Your assertion on the zone is sound. Maybe if Wojo had taught it and practiced it as the base defense from Day 1, we would be a better defensive team. Could be, I have no idea. But the team right now is better at M2M.
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Starting no matta. Jae (Big East Player of the Year) would regularly come in off the bench because he had a habit of picking up a foul within 90 seconds of a game. Look at total minutes, and who is playing in crunch time.
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Just so you guys realize, Ners regularly retroactively applies data to fit his narrative. Just like the "hasn't won three BE games in a row" line he's been using. He never brought this up once until he saw it here (or on Twitter.) Now it's a big talking point.
So he has to bring up "starting" because if he uses "total minutes" it defeats the purpose.
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Starting no matta. Jae (Big East Player of the Year) would regularly come in off the bench because he had a habit of picking up a foul within 90 seconds of a game. Look at total minutes, and who is playing in crunch time.
You're misremembering just a bit. Jae came off the bench his Junior year for precisely that reason. He started his Senior year when he was BEPOY.
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You're misremembering just a bit. Jae came off the bench his Junior year for precisely that reason. He started his Senior year when he was BEPOY.
My B. I just remember people questioning why he wasn't starting and Buzz explained that he thought that Jae was just more comfortable coming into a game that already had some flow. Point still stands.
I have no idea if this is a real stat or not but listening to Paschke and Johnny Mac call a bucks game earlier this year, they were talking about record in clutch games, which defined as any game that is within 5 points at any time in the last 5 minutes. Who's playing those minutes is the stat that should matter. Also how players perform in those 5 minutes should matter. If I remember correctly, Kevin Jones of WVA averaged more points are boards than Jae, but had a tendency to disappear in crunch time, which is why Jae got POTY.
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I highly doubt Wojo has seen his team play zone defense hundreds of thousands of times in practice. In fact, I'd estimate he's spent less than 10% of his defensive practice time on zone. It would be foolish to spend 50% of your time practicing a defense that you only use 5% of the time.
I'm not claiming to be a bigger expert than Wojo. Have never said that. I do have real concerns about some of his in-game coaching and playing time decisions. I keep harping on the Burton/Cohen thing, because how anybody in their right mind could think Cohen was a better player Day 1 on campus at MU than was Burton, coming off an All Big East Freshman campaign - just baffling.
I was glad to see Wojo use Cain A LOT more against Creighton. In fact I posted about it at halftime of that game - wanted to see a lot more Cain/Theo, than we saw in first half (regardless of what defense we were playing.) That was a good adjustment. Cain is a huge X-factor for this team. He alone can make the team markedly better on the defensive end/d-rebounding.
I stand by the assertion, that when you are physically outmatched in terms of size, strength, speed - zone is a better defensive approach.
Here is the reality of what happened to Burton. If you read it before then I do not know why you keep on bringing up the Wojo anti-Burton agenda.
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/17/nba-draft-prospect-deonte-burton-journey
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Here is the reality of what happened to Burton. If you read it before then I do not know why you keep on bringing up the Wojo anti-Burton agenda.
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/17/nba-draft-prospect-deonte-burton-journey
Because what you linked does NOT change the coaching decision/playing time decision Wojo made. Furthermore, the decision to not start Deonte DID add to his desire to get out of Milwaukee. He wasn't happy about playing 15 minutes a game, and not starting. It made the decision a no-brainer to get out of MKE.
I'll concede he MAY have left any way, if he were starting and playing 30 minutes per game, but, the PT issue sealed the deal.
Put yourself in his position. WTF would you think if you saw a player like Cohen come in and start ahead of you, and getting twice as much PT. Burton played 12 and 13 minutes the first two games of that season. Games 3 and 4, he played 26 and 14 respectively.
I won't comment any further. Have the last word.
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Because what you linked does NOT change the coaching decision/playing time decision Wojo made. Furthermore, the decision to not start Deonte DID add to his desire to get out of Milwaukee. He wasn't happy about playing 15 minutes a game, and not starting. It made the decision a no-brainer to get out of MKE.
I'll concede he MAY have left any way, if he were starting and playing 30 minutes per game, but, the PT issue sealed the deal.
Put yourself in his position. WTF would you think if you saw a player like Cohen come in and start ahead of you, and getting twice as much PT. Burton played 12 and 13 minutes the first two games of that season. Games 3 and 4, he played 26 and 14 respectively.
I won't comment any further. Have the last word.
You're blatantly wrong.
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Put yourself in his position. WTF would you think if you saw a player like Cohen come in and start ahead of you, and getting twice as much PT.
Sandy Cohen minutes in the 8 games Deonte was here: 98 minutes
Deonte Burton minutes in the 8 games Deonte was here: 129 minutes
IIRC, Sandy started the first four games and was then relegated to the bench. I don't remember who took his spot in the starting 5.
Again, Deonte was in foul trouble most of the game against UT Martin so his minutes were limited. In the second game against OSU, Deonte went 1/4 and Sandy went 3/5. Deonte played more minutes in every other game. I think you are doing a disservice to Deonte if you think one game of Sandy playing more minutes then he did was enough to get him to transfer.
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It's not all about basketball, you know. That semester, Deonte was in the process of losing/lost his mother. That takes an enormous emotional toll on a person. Maybe he wasn't mentally up to performing on the court. Maybe Wojo knew what he was dealing with and was taking it easy on him. He's made it clear that his decision to leave was related to getting out of Milwaukee after his mom died. Why can't you accept that?
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It's not all about basketball, you know. That semester, Deonte was in the process of losing/lost his mother. That takes an enormous emotional toll on a person. Maybe he wasn't mentally up to performing on the court. Maybe Wojo knew what he was dealing with and was taking it easy on him. He's made it clear that his decision to leave was related to getting out of Milwaukee after his mom died. Why can't you accept that?
Because it doesn't fit the narrative he's been preaching for three years.
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Because it doesn't fit the narrative he's been preaching for three years.
Yeah, once you accept that, its easy to move on.
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Because what you linked does NOT change the coaching decision/playing time decision Wojo made. Furthermore, the decision to not start Deonte DID add to his desire to get out of Milwaukee. He wasn't happy about playing 15 minutes a game, and not starting. It made the decision a no-brainer to get out of MKE.
I'll concede he MAY have left any way, if he were starting and playing 30 minutes per game, but, the PT issue sealed the deal.
Put yourself in his position. WTF would you think if you saw a player like Cohen come in and start ahead of you, and getting twice as much PT. Burton played 12 and 13 minutes the first two games of that season. Games 3 and 4, he played 26 and 14 respectively.
I won't comment any further. Have the last word.
Either you didn't read it or didn't understand what you read.
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Sandy Cohen minutes in the 8 games Deonte was here: 98 minutes
Deonte Burton minutes in the 8 games Deonte was here: 129 minutes
What the hell, TAMU? Facts? You're trying to subdue Ners with facts? When the heck did that ever work?
Shame on you. Please tell the rest of us you'll never let it happen again!
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What the hell, TAMU? Facts? You're trying to subdue Ners with facts? When the heck did that ever work?
Shame on you. Please tell the rest of us you'll never let it happen again!
I mean, Chicos is back bemoaning the plight of oppressed white males while Ners is once again talking about Derrick and Dawson (!). It's some hellish version of Ground Hog Day.
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As the original question...3 in a row not the issue. The issue is the same thing for all 5 wannabe Big East teams. How to you break free from the 10-8,9-9 dystopian middle of the Big East.
We’re all woulda, shoulda, coulda teams.
Next year my expectation with a lot of others is we’ll not be here. We will elevate. We will be top tier. And 3 in a row won’t be a question.
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As the original question...3 in a row not the issue. The issue is the same thing for all 5 wannabe Big East teams. How to you break free from the 10-8,9-9 dystopian middle of the Big East.
We’re all woulda, shoulda, coulda teams.
Next year my expectation with a lot of others is we’ll not be here. We will elevate. We will be top tier. And 3 in a row won’t be a question.
One might call it the middle east
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As the original question...3 in a row not the issue. The issue is the same thing for all 5 wannabe Big East teams. How to you break free from the 10-8,9-9 dystopian middle of the Big East.
We’re all woulda, shoulda, coulda teams.
Next year my expectation with a lot of others is we’ll not be here. We will elevate. We will be top tier. And 3 in a row won’t be a question.
The middle of the pack in the Beast has been extremely close the last two years. However, of the teams that finished 9-9, or 10-8 this year, we were the second youngest in terms of year of top 5 minutes. If Wojo had SH line-up, with 4 seniors starting, and only got to 10 wins, I would be a lot more concerned going forward. Even with PU line-up with 3 seniors a Junior and a sophomore I would be concerned with only 10 wins. Next year I expect that there will be much more separation in the middle, and for us to be above the middle with at least 11 wins. The top 5 players in mpg for the middle of the pack are as follows:
MU: 1) Soph. 2) Senior. 3) Soph. 4) Soph. 5) Junior (This does not include Haanif who would have been 4th or 5th had he stayed)
BU: 1) Senior. 2) Soph. 3) Junior. 4) Fresh. 5) Soph (only team younger, plus their 6th in minutes is also a Senior, plus Lavall had Holtmans players)
PU: 1) Senior. 2) Senior. 3) Senior. 4) Soph. 5) Jun
SH: 1) Senior. 2) Soph. 3) Senior. 4)Senior. 5) Senior
CU: 1) Senior. 2) Junior who appears in mock drafts. 3) Junior. 4) Soph. 5) Senior.
I would expect to finish above all of these teams next year, with SH taking the largest step back. PU is interesting becasue they graduate 3 senior, but will have Diallo, Holt (back from injury) Young, and a 5* PG coming in. CU has some question marks, especially if Thomas goes pro, and Krampelj likely being out to start the season, and possibly into BEast play. With BU, the biggest question mark is still the coach, because we all know that you need 4-5 years to judge, also based on what I could find, they only have one 3* in the fold for next year. Obviously all teams are still able to improve in the Grad transfer market, but there will be significant separation in the middle next year and we should finish above it.
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We got next year!
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I would expect to finish above all of these teams next year, with SH taking the largest step back. PU is interesting becasue they graduate 3 senior, but will have Diallo, Holt (back from injury) Young, and a 5* PG coming in. CU has some question marks, especially if Thomas goes pro, and Krampelj likely being out to start the season, and possibly into BEast play. With BU, the biggest question mark is still the coach, because we all know that you need 4-5 years to judge, also based on what I could find, they only have one 3* in the fold for next year. Obviously all teams are still able to improve in the Grad transfer market, but there will be significant separation in the middle next year and we should finish above it.
I'm happy with how our team looks heading into next year and even happier that we should be able to make a run at being in the top of the conference. I may need to temper expectations a bit, but I think we're positioned very well for next year. I'm curious to see where our SOS will end up next year, both as a team and as a conference, given the changes we can expect from the middle-tier teams. In total, it seems like the conference will be weaker next year because a lot of the top talent will be leaving. Are we going to see the Big East look like this year's Big (Four)Te(e)n type of top heavy conference?
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I'm happy with how our team looks heading into next year and even happier that we should be able to make a run at being in the top of the conference. I may need to temper expectations a bit, but I think we're positioned very well for next year. I'm curious to see where our SOS will end up next year, both as a team and as a conference, given the changes we can expect from the middle-tier teams. In total, it seems like the conference will be weaker next year because a lot of the top talent will be leaving. Are we going to see the Big East look like this year's Big (Four)Te(e)n type of top heavy conference?
I don't think that the bottom of the BEast will be as bad next year as the B14 this year. DePaul should still be down there, and St. Johns is almost entirely dependent on whether Ponds goes pro (I don't think he will). Georgetown should be better if Govan and Derrickson stay. I actually think that SH will finish last next year, after Powell they have next to nothing. I think a lot of the middle tier teams will take a step back next year, but I still think the conference can get 5 bids, and 2-3 more in the NIT. Keep in mind that the bottom of the B14 is truly terrible and no Beast team should be that bad.
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I don't think that the bottom of the BEast will be as bad next year as the B14 this year. DePaul should still be down there, and St. Johns is almost entirely dependent on whether Ponds goes pro (I don't think he will). Georgetown should be better if Govan and Derrickson stay. I actually think that SH will finish last next year, after Powell they have next to nothing. I think a lot of the middle tier teams will take a step back next year, but I still think the conference can get 5 bids, and 2-3 more in the NIT. Keep in mind that the bottom of the B14 is truly terrible and no Beast team should be that bad.
DePaul only loses Marin Maric and Tredarius McCallum. That's not bad, especially with Strus and Cain back. They could get to 7 or 8 wins and avoid playing on Wednesday in the BET next year.
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Rethinking the decision of 4 years ago, what would you rather have
Buzz's turnaround and VT Results
Shaka turnaround and Texas Results
Howland turnaround and Miss Results
Bruce Pearl turnaround and Auburn Results
Danny Manning turnaround and WF Results
Bobby Hurlery turnaround and ASU Results
Cuonzo Martin turnaround and his 2 stops Results
Be nice to put this poll up?
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Rethinking the decision of 4 years ago, what would you rather have
Buzz's turnaround and VT Results
Shaka turnaround and Texas Results
Howland turnaround and Miss Results
Bruce Pearl turnaround and Auburn Results
Danny Manning turnaround and WF Results
Bobby Hurlery turnaround and ASU Results
Cuonzo Martin turnaround and his 2 stops Results
Be nice to put this poll up?
Well, the main problem with this is that "the decision" was a series of decisions, and at least one of them was not Marquette's decision.
We offered Shaka; Mrs. Shaka turned us down.
I'll leave it to others to pick apart the rest of this ... if there's even interest in doing so.
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Millennials defer too much......
WOJO needs to win today.....No excuses......
If he does not.....First step towards the door.....
Sure he gets next year......But the seat will be lukewarm at best.....
There is not reason with 4 days to game plan and rest you can not beat a very fallible DePaul team...
We have Top half of the league talent with Bottom half of the league results.....
Put a stake thru their hearts.....and pile it on.....
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Rethinking the decision of 4 years ago, what would you rather have
Buzz's turnaround and VT Results
Shaka turnaround and Texas Results
Howland turnaround and Miss Results
Bruce Pearl turnaround and Auburn Results
Danny Manning turnaround and WF Results
Bobby Hurlery turnaround and ASU Results
Cuonzo Martin turnaround and his 2 stops Results
Be nice to put this poll up?
I think it’d be interesting to poll as long as we don’t include our current situation as a choice (basically ensuring that thread dives into a s***show right off the bat).
Shaka, Buzz, and Cuonzo all look pretty even right now. Pearl brings the FBI investigation with it so makes it easy there.
Been impressed with Cuonzo so far. Buzz’s teams are tough and bring that mentality I miss, but I always have wondered if he would just get stuck in that 7-11 range in a conference that deep and top heavy with only a VT brand. Louisville taking a deep hit will help...but will Cuse stay low for long?
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Millennials defer too much......
WOJO needs to win today.....No excuses......
If he does not.....First step towards the door.....
Sure he gets next year......But the seat will be lukewarm at best.....
There is not reason with 4 days to game plan and rest you can not beat a very fallible DePaul team...
We have Top half of the league talent with Bottom half of the league results.....
Put a stake thru their hearts.....and pile it on.....
Ah yes, millennials are to blame if we lose today.
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What the hell, TAMU? Facts? You're trying to subdue Ners with facts? When the heck did that ever work?
Shame on you. Please tell the rest of us you'll never let it happen again!
Here are some facts, since some of you can't let the issue drop:
Burton didn't start 1 game before transferring. He played over 20 minutes in 1 of the 8 first games. That's some real buy-in from a coach, right?
Whether it was Cohen that started in front of him, Juan, JJJ, Derrick - none of those guys were better players. Any objective basketball fan would agree Burton was FAR better than any of these guys.
If the theory held true that "Wojo rides the hot hand," why in Game 4 against NJIT didn't Burton get more than 14 minutes with a 143 O-Rating, and 1 Personal Foul. What's the excuse made there? He had foul trouble in one game, UT-Martin, no foul trouble in any of the others. Why in the Wisconsin game where we scored a whopping 38 points did our most talented offensive player get 11 minutes?
Chew on those FACTS.
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I won't comment any further. Have the last word.
Here are some facts, since some of you can't let the issue drop:
Burton didn't start 1 game before transferring. He played over 20 minutes in 1 of the 8 first games. That's some real buy-in from a coach, right?
Whether it was Cohen that started in front of him, Juan, JJJ, Derrick - none of those guys were better players. Any objective basketball fan would agree Burton was FAR better than any of these guys.
If the theory held true that "Wojo rides the hot hand," why in Game 4 against NJIT didn't Burton get more than 14 minutes with a 143 O-Rating, and 1 Personal Foul. What's the excuse made there? He had foul trouble in one game, UT-Martin, no foul trouble in any of the others. Why in the Wisconsin game where we scored a whopping 38 points did our most talented offensive player get 11 minutes?
Chew on those FACTS.
Hmmm...
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DePaul only loses Marin Maric and Tredarius McCallum. That's not bad, especially with Strus and Cain back. They could get to 7 or 8 wins and avoid playing on Wednesday in the BET next year.
True but McCallum and Maric are the only two players at DePaul who are both high major worthy and play in the post. Lots of 5 guard sets for the Blue Demons next season
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I am actually impressed that Ners bothered to look up a game versus NJIT from November 24, 2014 to bolster his claim. That's next-level obsession right there.
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When will the "Ban myself" thread be posted?
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Rethinking the decision of 4 years ago, what would you rather have
Buzz's turnaround and VT Results
Shaka turnaround and Texas Results
Howland turnaround and Miss Results
Bruce Pearl turnaround and Auburn Results
Danny Manning turnaround and WF Results
Bobby Hurlery turnaround and ASU Results
Cuonzo Martin turnaround and his 2 stops Results
Be nice to put this poll up?
Only one I would take at this point is Buzz at VT. He's doing an excellent job.
Shaka has underperformed both last year and this year.
Howland has yet to make the tourney and is still not a good human being.
Pearl is under investigation by the FBI
Manning has a team ranked in the 90s on KenPom after one bubble appearance
Hurley had a hot team to start the season but finished 9th in the Pac 12...a conference that only has one tournament lock at the moment. He graduates his three best players (who he didn't recruit) this summer and will likely take a big step back.
Cuonzo took a decent California program and turned it into a smoldering crater in three years. He might do better at Mizzou since I assume he stays longer but we dodged a bullet by not hiring him.
Despite only trading for Buzz results, I'm not satisfied with the results we've had. I want more. Conclusion, rebuilds are hard.
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Only one I would take at this point is Buzz at VT. He's doing an excellent job.
In this scenario, are we presuming that Buzz didn't tank the previous two years prior to learning so he doesn't have a bare cupboard for the outlying years?
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In this scenario, are we presuming that Buzz didn't tank the previous two years prior to learning so he doesn't have a bare cupboard for the outlying years?
Is there a Scoop "bare cupboard" drinking game yet? If not, can we get that going?
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Here are some facts, since some of you can't let the issue drop:
Burton didn't start 1 game before transferring. He played over 20 minutes in 1 of the 8 first games. That's some real buy-in from a coach, right?
Whether it was Cohen that started in front of him, Juan, JJJ, Derrick - none of those guys were better players. Any objective basketball fan would agree Burton was FAR better than any of these guys.
If the theory held true that "Wojo rides the hot hand," why in Game 4 against NJIT didn't Burton get more than 14 minutes with a 143 O-Rating, and 1 Personal Foul. What's the excuse made there? He had foul trouble in one game, UT-Martin, no foul trouble in any of the others. Why in the Wisconsin game where we scored a whopping 38 points did our most talented offensive player get 11 minutes?
Chew on those FACTS.
Here we an example of "shifted goalposts." Shifted goalposts occur when a person makes an argument that is proven wrong so they change their argument without acknowledging the original argument.
Here the argument was "Burton transferred because Sandy Cohen started over him and played twice as many minutes as him." When it was shown that Cohen did not play "twice as many minutes as Burton" that in fact Burton played more minutes than Cohen did, the argument changed.
I can absolutely buy the argument that if Deonte was getting more minutes he might not have transferred. But not the argument that it is why he transferred when he himself has stated repeatedly that he left because of his mother's death.
As for Derrick/Juan/JJJ playing over him, Derrick was a PG and had no impact on his playing time. Juan you might remember came out flaming hot his senior year. Deonte became the better player but during those 8 games Juan was the better player. JJJ I might agree with. He was so up and down that year...though Deonte did play more than JJJ in 3/8 games and the same in 1 game.
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I can absolutely buy the argument that if Deonte was getting more minutes he might not have transferred. But not the argument that it is why he transferred when he himself has stated repeatedly that he left because of his mother's death.
In a brave attempt to avoid this topic in future threads, I'd like to offer a simple opinion on this matter. Regardless of which transfer it is that is being discussed, can we just all agree that we, the fans, will probably never know the whole story? We all know that statements made about and by transfers keep the PR agencies in business. In some cases, we may get more of the story than others, but we'll never know the full list of reasons why a player leaves MU or any other program, except for the case of a blatant public scandal.
Is that something we can all agree on? Seems reasonable enough to me.
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Hmmm...
So good
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So good
He almost made it a full 24 hours
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I am still trying to get over the UNO loss so the NJIT game hasn't even entered into my frontal lobe.
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I declare this thread dead
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I declare this thread dead
Still gotta win three in a row during the regular season
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Still gotta win three in a row during the regular season
I'm sure some people will bring that up next year, but this thread should be done now.
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Still gotta win three in a row during the regular season
Nah. It's over. Wojo's excellent coaching shepherded us to victory tonight. Monkey off the back.
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This is perfect.
Even though we used two great 4-1 stretches last season to get into the tournament, there's a "monkey" on Wojo's back because he hasn't won 3 straight conference games.
And now we win 3 straight - and 6 of our last 8 - and very well might be in the tourney again, but the third one doesn't count because it was a narrow victory over DePaul?
To quote the great Herm Edwards: You play to win the game!
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Still gotta win three in a row during the regular season
I’d be ok if he decided to go ahead and win 3 in a row in the BET.
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I’d be ok if he decided to go ahead and win 3 in a row in the BET.
Might as well be greedy and go for 4 ;)
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I’d be ok if he decided to go ahead and win 3 in a row in the BET.
Amazingly, neither Buzz nor Crean ever did that.
Might as well be greedy and go for 4 ;)
Or that.
Come on Wojo!
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Dawson arrived at Liberty while they were rated 333 the year before he became eligible. They improved to 279 his Junior year. 211 his Senior Year.
...and 179 this season, with no Dawson. lol. Get a grip.
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...and 179 this season, with no Dawson. lol. Get a grip.
It’s clear to see the lasting impact Dawson had on that university. He was able to right the ship and set them up for great success.
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...and 179 this season, with no Dawson. lol. Get a grip.
Who said progress isn't linear? Liberty has got it going.
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...and 179 this season, with no Dawson. lol. Get a grip.
M2N. FTs no matta. Get a grip. Pretty sure Markus will land right alongside Dawson in the G-League.
That aside, do we take a step forward next year with Markus at PG and Rowsey off roster? Obviously everyone is salivating at the additions of Morrow and Joey. Will we be better next year?
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M2N. FTs no matta. Get a grip. Pretty sure Markus will land right alongside Dawson in the G-League.
That aside, do we take a step forward next year with Markus at PG and Rowsey off roster? Obviously everyone is salivating at the additions of Morrow and Joey. Will we be better next year?
Every year is different. As usual there will be question marks but having all the players back will help except Rowsey. Still need to add a player. The offense will
have to change somewhat. Morrow will have to be involved in the O. Still lacking bulk, every player on Depaul was bigger yesterday. Better on the D end, O will be
a little less.
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M2N. FTs no matta. Get a grip. Pretty sure Markus will land right alongside Dawson in the G-League.
That aside, do we take a step forward next year with Markus at PG and Rowsey off roster? Obviously everyone is salivating at the additions of Morrow and Joey. Will we be better next year?
To put Markus & Dawson in the same sentence is one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen in my life. And I liked Dawson more than most.
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To put Markus & Dawson in the same sentence is one of the most disrespectful things I've ever seen in my life. And I liked Dawson more than most.
Just shows his real agenda. But hey he did dunk in HS
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M2N. FTs no matta. Get a grip. Pretty sure Markus will land right alongside Dawson in the G-League.
Dude, let it go. I did a search for mentions of Dawson in the past year and got 30 hits. One was Andre in the MLB thread, one was Branden in a NCAA investigation thread. Of the other 28, 14 have happened in the month since you came back. Otherwise, most mentions are either MUFINY talking about Dawson in the G-League (no one cares) or threads specifically talking about transfers.
No. One. Cares. About. John. Dawson. Anymore.
Let it go.
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Dude, let it go. I did a search for mentions of Dawson in the past year and got 30 hits. One was Andre in the MLB thread, one was Branden in a NCAA investigation thread. Of the other 28, 14 have happened in the month since you came back. Otherwise, most mentions are either MUFINY talking about Dawson in the G-League (no one cares) or threads specifically talking about transfers.
No. One. Cares. About. John. Dawson. Anymore.
Let it go.
To be fair, a lot of those 14 are probably me. I've been calling zone defense his new John Dawson
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Dude, let it go. I did a search for mentions of Dawson in the past year and got 30 hits. One was Andre in the MLB thread, one was Branden in a NCAA investigation thread. Of the other 28, 14 have happened in the month since you came back. Otherwise, most mentions are either MUFINY talking about Dawson in the G-League (no one cares) or threads specifically talking about transfers.
No. One. Cares. About. John. Dawson. Anymore.
Let it go.
I just imagine you clapping with each word as you yell this at the screen.
But seriously, everyone needs to let this go. Old news.
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If my kids feed the neighborhood stray cat, and the cat keeps coming to my house and pissing all over the place, I don’t take issue with the cat. Just sayin
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M2N. FTs no matta. Get a grip. Pretty sure Markus will land right alongside Dawson in the G-League.
That aside, do we take a step forward next year with Markus at PG and Rowsey off roster? Obviously everyone is salivating at the additions of Morrow and Joey. Will we be better next year?
...and the goalposts move yet again. The answer to your question is, we’ll find out next year. Let’s shut this silly discussion down.
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Even with a victory to keep our NCAA hopes very much alive, Scoop can't get along.
#justwinbaby
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Even with a victory to keep our NCAA hopes very much alive, Scoop can't get along.
#justwinbaby
I'm pretty sure if Scoop existed in 2003 someone would have complained about Crean playing Wade too much in the Kentucky game.
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Can Wojo finally...win 3 conference games in a row? remember, he has not done it yet, and DePual ruined our last chance in Chicago. I hope wojo has his team ready.
Only took 4 games this year to accomplish this. Wojo's growth since he first took the job has been very solid. 4-14 with the season ending with a 35 point loss seems like a long time ago.
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Only took 4 games this year to accomplish this. Wojo's growth since he first took the job has been very solid. 4-14 with the season ending with a 35 point loss seems like a long time ago.
Yep, yep, yep.
Good team, good coach. Hopefully we'll be able to say both are great by mid-March.
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And MU is undefeated in close games. Mental toughness developing.
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And MU is undefeated in close games. Mental toughness developing.
Some will claim there’s nothing more to it than luck.
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Some will claim many irrational things.
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Yep, yep, yep.
Good team, good coach. Hopefully we'll be able to say both are great by mid-March.
“This is a program that’s going to win in March.” -wojo (year 1)
Waited a long time but have a chance this year to do some damage.