MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 5DollarPitcher on February 10, 2018, 12:49:14 PM
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Title
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Matt Heldt is fouled out and Theo John is unavailable.
Next question.
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Matt Heldt is fouled out and Theo John is unavailable.
Next question.
15.1 minutes per game, 3 starts (including NMD)?
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Because he should be better, mate. That’s why.
Do they even have rabbits in Australia?
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A little harsh, but I struggle to think of anything Harry does well at a high major level. He had to be substituted out, and Wojo had to go small, because he is a disaster defensively. His offense has disappeared.
He's our version of Andy Van Vliet. Completely over his head at this level.
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A little harsh, but I struggle to think of anything Harry does well at a high major level. He had to be substituted out, and Wojo had to go small, because he is a disaster defensively. His offense has disappeared.
He's our version of Andy Van Vliet. Completely over his head at this level.
Yup. I argue we should feed him pizza and pork rinds, since he was better when he was rounder.
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I was giving Harry the benefit of the doubt...but I think that missed bunny broke me. Yelled so loud I scared the dog
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A little harsh, but I struggle to think of anything Harry does well at a high major level. He had to be substituted out, and Wojo had to go small, because he is a disaster defensively. His offense has disappeared.
He's our version of Andy Van Vliet. Completely over his head at this level.
Agree.
I'm absolutely amazed how much this board's opinion of Harry has changed just within the last few weeks. He's been the same player all season, but most had given him the majority of the C minutes a few games into him becoming available. Even though he was bad from the start most were projecting massive across-the-board improvement in decision-making, awareness, defense, 3-point shooting, and play within the team. People were quick to move Heldt to garbage minutes based on Harry's (questionable) performances.
He was lucky enough again today to find time (due to Theo's outage) and that likely continues through the season, but next year I honestly have a hard time seeing how Froling plays at all. I wonder what he does if he sees that writing on the wall.
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A little harsh, but I struggle to think of anything Harry does well at a high major level. He had to be substituted out, and Wojo had to go small, because he is a disaster defensively. His offense has disappeared.
He's our version of Andy Van Vliet. Completely over his head at this level.
Yup, with Heldt back to normal and Froling, the once mid season savior, its been a disappointment to say the least.
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Rebounding.
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Rebounding.
Yes. Statistically he is MU's best rebounder.
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we always say Theo has great ceiling and Matt is what you see is what you get.
But what is Froling? Is this as good as it gets? Isn’t he here for two more years after this?
Wojo might have to do some tough things for the sake of the team next year. How do you tell a player you’re just not going to play.
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To tell you the truth, I wish he'd go pro in Australia.
I chalked a lot of the problems early on up to rustiness, but he really has not progressed on O, and as for defense, anything I could add would be inflammatory.
I was anticipating better when Bilas indicated he thought he'd make a difference, but he really hasn't.
He seems like a nice kid, interacts well with the rest of the team, but he has just not brought it.
I guess the question is whether or not he can progress. I'm pessimistic.
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His offense has disappeared.
I honestly don't want to pile on a kid but I believe something has to appear before it can disappear
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I was giving Harry the benefit of the doubt...but I think that missed bunny broke me. Yelled so loud I scared the dog
My dog Elmo didn't like my yelling as well when Harry missed.
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Part of Harry’s problem offensively (other than those missed layups that should be dunks) is that he is not taking the open shot in the flow of the offense. Have the coaches told him not to shoot? Defensively, that’s another story...
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I honestly don't want to pile on a kid but I believe something has to appear before it can disappear
He went 5/5 for 11 points v. Nova in Milwaukee.
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Part of Harry’s problem offensively (other than those missed layups that should be dunks) is that he is not taking the open shot in the flow of the offense. Have the coaches told him not to shoot? Defensively, that’s another story...
Harry's original problem was that he was missing all of those wide open shots. Opponents hope he shoots it. Wojo has done a good job of reeling him in and having him focus more around the basket, cleaning up the trash.
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Harry's original problem was that he was missing all of those wide open shots. Opponents hope he shoots it. Wojo has done a good job of reeling him in and having him focus more around the basket, cleaning up the trash.
Oh, I get that. But, one of Harry’s major strengths, along with his passing, is his “jump” shot. Teammates were encouraging him to shoot as they obviously see it in practice. In any event, the game is just going too fast for Harry.
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To tell you the truth, I wish he'd go pro in Australia.
I chalked a lot of the problems early on up to rustiness, but he really has not progressed on O, and as for defense, anything I could add would be inflammatory.
I was anticipating better when Bilas indicated he thought he'd make a difference, but he really hasn't.
He seems like a nice kid, interacts well with the rest of the team, but he has just not brought it.
I guess the question is whether or not he can progress. I'm pessimistic.
Is the Australian League really that bad? Harry still has two more years here, Heldt has one. Theo has to step up next year and yesterday people were asking if Theo should redshirt.........
Harry had a good game in losing effort vs Nova, but then again for four years we heard of Derrick Wilson's good game against Wisky. The next excuse will be he was in a boot for awhile, lost weight, not in shape, yadayada.....
He's a Division I player and just has to practice, get better and hopefully will help next year. Wishing him the best, but right now, he needs some help.
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A little harsh, but I struggle to think of anything Harry does well at a high major level. He had to be substituted out, and Wojo had to go small, because he is a disaster defensively. His offense has disappeared.
He's our version of Andy Van Vliet. Completely over his head at this level.
That's how I see it. Hard for me to envision how Harry gets many minutes next year. I agree with you and said during the game that I don't see anything that he does well enough to contribute at the major college level.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm happy to have him on the team. But he's spending his Junior and Senior year as 10th man or below.
Not that I'm projecting it but has Harry 'used up' his transfer option with the mid year thing? Said another way, could he consider going 'down'?
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That's how I see it. Hard for me to envision how Harry gets many minutes next year. I agree with you and said during the game that I don't see anything that he does well enough to contribute at the major college level.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm happy to have him on the team. But he's spending his Junior and Senior year as 10th man or below.
Not that I'm projecting it but has Harry 'used up' his transfer option with the mid year thing? Said another way, could he consider going 'down'?
If he transferred, he would have to sit out a year but would still have two years remaining.
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Bottom line in this game is that Owens went to bench with 15 minutes to go. STJ put Ahmed and Clarke at the 5.
Heldt and Froling had huge height difference, yet MU had zero points from them during this timeframe. Yes, Howard and Rowsey tried their usual floaters driving to take some advantage, but not happening.
MU has no offensive presence at center and needed to advantage of the loss of Owens. Believe Morrow and improvement of Theo will help next year, but not today.
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The defense aside, which is atrocious right now, he has the potential to bring some things to the table:
- Probably the best offensive rebounder on team
- Supposedly can hit outside shots. Yes, I know he hasn't shown it but the coaches seem to think he can
- He actually is a pretty good ball handler for his size. If he is going to out there with his poor "D" then he should at least be fed the ball while moving towards the basket on offense
We really missed Theo today. His "D" and rebounding would have really helped.
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I’ll never forget how excited Wojo was post game the game before Froling was eligible about what he was going to bring to the team. I have no unnatural carnal knowledgeing idea what he was so excited about
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If he transferred, he would have to sit out a year but would still have two years remaining.
Thanks Sultan. Makes sense.
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I’ll never forget how excited Wojo was post game the game before Froling was eligible about what he was going to bring to the team. I have no unnatural carnal knowledgeing idea what he was so excited about
Consider the source: Wojo!
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Harry is a player who will do well against the cupcakes and will be challenged against the more physical and athletic teams. He has a very good nose for rebounds and occasionally makes some quality passes. Right now he is 1/3 of our center lineup. We are making the best use of his talents.
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Harry played good defense against Delgado. Like Matt, like Luke, he struggles do defend in space. Right now, his confidence on the offensive end is shot. But 10 days ago, everyone was down on Theo. 4 days ago, everyone was down on Matt. SJU did not play a true big. They played a shot blocking skinny 4. They got MU to switch. Matt, Harry, Sam all ended up guarding Ponds in space. With, if you actually look at it objectively, completely predictable results. Giving up on Harry in what is essentially his freshman season is as short sighted as anointing him. (hand raised and head bowed in guilt)
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Froling cannot cover very quick players. St. John's is a bad matchup for him.
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Harry played good defense against Delgado. Like Matt, like Luke, he struggles do defend in space. Right now, his confidence on the offensive end is shot. But 10 days ago, everyone was down on Theo. 4 days ago, everyone was down on Matt. SJU did not play a true big. They played a shot blocking skinny 4. They got MU to switch. Matt, Harry, Sam all ended up guarding Ponds in space. With, if you actually look at it objectively, completely predictable results. Giving up on Harry in what is essentially his freshman season is as short sighted as anointing him. (hand raised and head bowed in guilt)
This^^^^^^^
Dude is really a Frosh. Too much hype with him coming in. Did I say, he's a Frosh?
Remember when people thought Vander was a turd his Frosh year?
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1. He's not a freshman
2. Vander showed what he could become his freshman year. Harry? Sorry, but I don't see it.
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Agree.
I'm absolutely amazed how much this board's opinion of Harry has changed just within the last few weeks. He's been the same player all season, but most had given him the majority of the C minutes a few games into him becoming available. Even though he was bad from the start most were projecting massive across-the-board improvement in decision-making, awareness, defense, 3-point shooting, and play within the team. People were quick to move Heldt to garbage minutes based on Harry's (questionable) performances.
He was lucky enough again today to find time (due to Theo's outage) and that likely continues through the season, but next year I honestly have a hard time seeing how Froling plays at all. I wonder what he does if he sees that writing on the wall.
But wait...how can this be? He is a huge difference maker.
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Average big men need at least two years of development before the are average.
I withhold judgement until next season when no longer a mid season transfer.
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The BE may be too tough for Harry. He seems overwhelmed most of the time. I wish it were different, but, you got to be good to compete in the BE.
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The BE may be too tough for Harry. He seems overwhelmed most of the time. I wish it were different, but, you got to be good to compete in the BE.
Maybe one of the problems for Harry is that he was practicing for a year against our defense, which would make any player look better. Now he is trying to learn to play against better defensive players.
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Harry played good defense against Delgado. Like Matt, like Luke, he struggles do defend in space. Right now, his confidence on the offensive end is shot. But 10 days ago, everyone was down on Theo. 4 days ago, everyone was down on Matt. SJU did not play a true big. They played a shot blocking skinny 4. They got MU to switch. Matt, Harry, Sam all ended up guarding Ponds in space. With, if you actually look at it objectively, completely predictable results. Giving up on Harry in what is essentially his freshman season is as short sighted as anointing him. (hand raised and head bowed in guilt)
Keep your head bowed, he is not a freshman.
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I think Henry will benefit a fair amount from having a point guard to play with. He has both good hands and offensive instincts. I could see him being successful on dump downs and pick and rolls with a better distributor.
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Harry played good defense against Delgado. Like Matt, like Luke, he struggles do defend in space. Right now, his confidence on the offensive end is shot. But 10 days ago, everyone was down on Theo. 4 days ago, everyone was down on Matt. SJU did not play a true big. They played a shot blocking skinny 4. They got MU to switch. Matt, Harry, Sam all ended up guarding Ponds in space. With, if you actually look at it objectively, completely predictable results. Giving up on Harry in what is essentially his freshman season is as short sighted as anointing him. (hand raised and head bowed in guilt)
Rewatch theSeton Hall tape. Froling was absolutely horrible in the first half versus Delgado. Game turned when Wojo finally bailed on him n played Heldt
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Odd post given that Harry only played 11 minutes - and even that amount of "so much time" was because Theo was unavailable.
We've seen some flashes - especially against a non-cupcake like Nova - but not enough of them. Hesitant on offense, slow afoot on defense, looks a little clueless out there.
I'm glad Wojo kept signing bigs. If Joey and Morrow are as good as advertised, and if Theo continues to develop, Froling will have trouble getting any minutes - let alone "so much time" - the next couple of seasons.
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That's how I see it. Hard for me to envision how Harry gets many minutes next year. I agree with you and said during the game that I don't see anything that he does well enough to contribute at the major college level.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm happy to have him on the team. But he's spending his Junior and Senior year as 10th man or below.
Not that I'm projecting it but has Harry 'used up' his transfer option with the mid year thing? Said another way, could he consider going 'down'?
Or down under.
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I think we need to be patient with Harry and here's why:
a) he comes from Australia where there is ALMOST ZERO youth basketball instruction available, and even if he's had the best there is, it's nothing like what USA kids will get.
b) Defense - by Australian standards - is non-existant. One of the few places in the world where they play zone (i.e. no defense) in pickup games!
c) He's basically a freshman based on experience
d) This year's task was to get his body into big east shape. job done with the weight lost and strength gain.
e) Next year's job is to teach him how to play system O and D.
I think he's capable of 10 and 10 (and 5 fouls, unfortunately) next year but he needs another good year of off season development.
As for now, it's good that he's getting some minutes for experience, but he looks like a lost puppy out there.
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Harry could still develop into a more reliable contributor, but there is no way I see him averaging 10 rebounds next year. I'd be overjoyed with 8/5 next year.
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Harry could still develop into a more reliable contributor, but there is no way I see him averaging 10 rebounds next year. I'd be overjoyed with 8/5 next year.
Harry's season now was summed up yesterday, makes a great head fake, 2 guys go flying by and then misses a one footer. It seems the coaches have told him
not to shoot, which if they did is wrong. Not in the flow offensively at all. It is great he has improved in the weight room, but this off season he needs to work on
all facets of the game. 10/10 doubt it, I really see him as the third or 4th center next year, as the more I watch our centers, Morrow might have to play center, with
Sam and Anim at the forwards, with Joey probably first off the bench. That is if, Joey's foot heals the right way, and he can start practicing in spring. I do not see both
Hauser boys starting, to slow afoot.
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Rewatch theSeton Hall tape. Froling was absolutely horrible in the first half versus Delgado. Game turned when Wojo finally bailed on him n played Heldt
I did. I watched the second half, too. His defense on Delgado was as good as Matt's, but Matt scored some points.
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I did. I watched the second half, too. His defense on Delgado was as good as Matt's, but Matt scored some points.
Far too delusional. How many rebounds n points did delagado get over froling by simply pushing him out of the way or going around him? Had a few possesions where he got 2-3 rebounds as he pushed froling almost under the backboard. He got almost all of his points n rebounds when froling was in and next to none when matt was in. Harry is really really bad. In fact with matt, theo, morrow, joey, and ike next year i think MU is better off calling it a mistake n freeing up the scholarship at seasons end
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Far too delusional. How many rebounds n points did delagado get over froling by simply pushing him out of the way or going around him? Had a few possesions where he got 2-3 rebounds as he pushed froling almost under the backboard. He got almost all of his points n rebounds when froling was in and next to none when matt was in. Harry is really really bad. In fact with matt, theo, morrow, joey, and ike next year i think MU is better off calling it a mistake n freeing up the scholarship at seasons end
I'm pretty sure our problems at center are still all because of Luke.
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I'm pretty sure our problems at center are still all because of Luke.
If your referring to our horrible defensive issues at center with luke being similar to them with Froling, you would be correct.
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If your referring to our horrible defensive issues at center with luke being similar to them with Froling, you would be correct.
No, I'm referring to you being a mope who is happiest when he is complaining.
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Odd post given that Harry only played 11 minutes - and even that amount of "so much time" was because Theo was unavailable.
We've seen some flashes - especially against a non-cupcake like Nova - but not enough of them. Hesitant on offense, slow afoot on defense, looks a little clueless out there.
I'm glad Wojo kept signing bigs. If Joey and Morrow are as good as advertised, and if Theo continues to develop, Froling will have trouble getting any minutes - let alone "so much time" - the next couple of seasons.
Agree. A 6'9" Joey and 6'8" Morrow will be dominant next year.
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I'm pretty sure our problems at center are still all because of Luke.
Obsess much?
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Obsess much?
(http://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlElA0BcFITYmhW/giphy.gif)
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Obsess much?
Yes, I spend 24 hours a day sitting around thinking about some anonymous interwebs dweeb who complains a lot about 21-year-old young men.
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I applaud ur honesty
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I think we need to be patient with Harry and here's why:
a) he comes from Australia where there is ALMOST ZERO youth basketball instruction available, and even if he's had the best there is, it's nothing like what USA kids will get.
b) Defense - by Australian standards - is non-existant. One of the few places in the world where they play zone (i.e. no defense) in pickup games!
c) He's basically a freshman based on experience
d) This year's task was to get his body into big east shape. job done with the weight lost and strength gain.
e) Next year's job is to teach him how to play system O and D.
I think he's capable of 10 and 10 (and 5 fouls, unfortunately) next year but he needs another good year of off season development.
As for now, it's good that he's getting some minutes for experience, but he looks like a lost puppy out there.
He's been practicing with college players and coaches for 2 years now. Game time accounts for a very small percentage of total time spent playing basketball for guys at this level. The argument that he's basically a freshman just doesn't make any sense.
And last year, when he wasn't playing, was when he was focused on his body. He lost a ton of weight last year and improved his conditioning. He should have been able to focus on getting better at basketball over the summer and in the first part of this season.
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When he was in a boot for months.
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Speaking of Morrow, does anybody know why he hasn't been on the bench with the other 2 redshirts the last three games!
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Speaking of Morrow, does anybody know why he hasn't been on the bench with the other 2 redshirts the last three games!
Morrow can't travel with the team as a transfer. He is ineligible to play.
Theoretically both Joey and Ike could play at any time.
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Thanks for the clarification!
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Speaking of Morrow, does anybody know why he hasn't been on the bench with the other 2 redshirts the last three games!
Morrow missed the Providence game with the flu. Heard he ended up at the hospital it was so bad.
I have no idea to what extent the flu has effected our (and others') team but it seems significant. I wonder if any of our players have been playing through the flu. Week off to get healthy could be significant.
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Morrow missed the Providence game with the flu. Heard he ended up at the hospital it was so bad.
I have no idea to what extent the flu has effected our (and others') team but it seems significant. I wonder if any of our players have been playing through the flu. Week off to get healthy could be significant.
Markus was clearly sick during the SJU game. You could tell just by looking at him. Obviously we know Theo is sick. MUBB announced before the SHU game that several players were dealing with the flu.
There was a video posted to MUBB twitter of Wojo talking to the guys after the SHU game. Sam and Sacar were both hacking up a storm during the short video.
I think most of the team has been sick the last week.
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Markus was clearly sick during the SJU game. You could tell just by looking at him. Obviously we know Theo is sick. MUBB announced before the SHU game that several players were dealing with the flu.
There was a video posted to MUBB twitter of Wojo talking to the guys after the SHU game. Sam and Sacar were both hacking up a storm during the short video.
I think most of the team has been sick the last week.
The BOT won't be happy at Wojo's inability to run a clean program. He better bring in a veteran coach who knows the value of hand sanitizer in the offseason.
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More than 60 children have died this year from the flu, and killing thousands of people per week.
This is not the year to underestimate the flu virus.
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The BOT won't be happy at Wojo's inability to run a clean program. He better bring in a veteran coach who knows the value of hand sanitizer in the offseason.
(http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/well-played-gif-10.gif)
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Morrow missed the Providence game with the flu. Heard he ended up at the hospital it was so bad.
I have no idea to what extent the flu has effected our (and others') team but it seems significant. I wonder if any of our players have been playing through the flu. Week off to get healthy could be significant.
Man wouldn’t that be something if that was to blame for these losses? If the flu really has hit the team widespread that can’t be discounted
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So we're finishing the conference schedule 5-0, right?
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I think KenPom.com needs a new metric that rates teams on their overall health. Perhaps AdjPP (Adjusted Phlegm Production). Or SNP (Sneezes Per Possession).
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Man wouldn’t that be something if that was to blame for these losses? If the flu really has hit the team widespread that can’t be discounted
I'm hoping but not holding my breath. All we know is Theo and Morrow had to be sidelined from team activities for at least a few days....and that during the Seton Hall game "several players were dealing with flu-like symptoms."
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He's been practicing with college players and coaches for 2 years now. Game time accounts for a very small percentage of total time spent playing basketball for guys at this level. The argument that he's basically a freshman just doesn't make any sense.
And last year, when he wasn't playing, was when he was focused on his body. He lost a ton of weight last year and improved his conditioning. He should have been able to focus on getting better at basketball over the summer and in the first part of this season.
Big difference between practice and actual playing time at this level. Plus started practicing late with MU because he was in a boot.
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Harry's season now was summed up yesterday, makes a great head fake, 2 guys go flying by and then misses a one footer. It seems the coaches have told him
not to shoot, which if they did is wrong. Not in the flow offensively at all. It is great he has improved in the weight room, but this off season he needs to work on
all facets of the game. 10/10 doubt it, I really see him as the third or 4th center next year, as the more I watch our centers, Morrow might have to play center, with
Sam and Anim at the forwards, with Joey probably first off the bench. That is if, Joey's foot heals the right way, and he can start practicing in spring. I do not see both
Hauser boys starting, to slow afoot.
He transferred from Nebraska because he didn't want to play center, so no.
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He transferred from Nebraska because he didn't want to play center, so no.
He did. But Morrow is definitely going to see some time in the post. I don't think he'll be there the majority of the time, but he's going to play some some center.
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Big difference between practice and actual playing time at this level.
I whole-heartedly agree. But I think practice is more important. Do you really think the 20-30 minutes of game time a couple times per week is what results in player development? Call me crazy, but I think the 3-5 hours per day, every day, all year long spent at practice, in the weight room, and in the film room are the things that result in guys becoming better basketball players. Game minutes build confidence, but I think that's the primary benefit.
I've said this a number of times, mostly in reference to Harry, but if players developed more from game time than from practice, redshirting players would never happen. Harry is 2 years removed from high school. He has spent 2 years in college-level practices, had 2 years worth of strength and nutrition guidance, and spent 2 years with college-level coaching staffs reviewing film and discussing ways to improve his play. He's a sophomore.
Is Ike the same as high school seniors now since he hasn't played in a game? Would you consider Cam just a freshman since he doesn't see any game minutes?
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What is "play center"?
Unless a team plays a 2-3 or some other zone with a definitive center, there barely is a center position any more.
If Morrow's best matchup is defending the other team's post player, he will do so - just as Sam does now.
Offensively, it really doesn't matter. Jordan posted up all the time; was he a center?
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He transferred from Nebraska because he didn't want to play center, so no.
You play the best 5 players, Jamal McKay transferred from MU because he did not want to play center. Went to Iowa St., what did he play center. I see Morrow,
maybe both Hausers in the line-up next year if the centers do not pan out.
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Morrow will play the 5 some times. He will play the 4 most of the time. A lot of the time he will play the 4 on defense and the 5 on offense. When he plays the 5, he won't always end up defending the 5 on defense. Notice how Wojo likes to switch on ball screens? You need players like Morrow who can guard multiple positions in order to do that.
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And you can run different offensive sets when Morrow is at "center." It's not as though he will have to post up everyone.
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And you can run different offensive sets when Morrow is at "center." It's not as though he will have to post up everyone.
That is what I'm saying he won't play like Heldt or even Theo. He'll be a 4 that comes inside, closes out on D. Front court starters would be Sam (3), Heldt/Harry/Theo (5) (guess depends who we are playing), Morrow (4). Morrow can post up like Sam does now coming off the 4 in a mismatch.
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Exactly. Positions are almost meaningless in this day and age.
Even PG is if you have enough people who are good with the ball, have great court vision, etc. The championship Bulls didn't really have a PG - Pippen was the primary distributor and offense-organizer, Jordan had the ball in his hands a lot (duh), and Pax/BJ were more at least as much shooters as they were PGs.
Obviously, if you have a superior "classic PG" who also can score, that's the best. Not too many really good ones out there. Hopefully Wojo will bring in a decent one.
Center? It's almost obsolete these days. Morrow will do a lot of different stuff.
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Well Froling wants to man up
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2018/02/14/marquette-sophomore-center-harry-froling-has-had-up-and-down-season/335499002/
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Harry will be fine.
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Experience and practice overcome fear, he is just a deer in the headlights at this point. Require that he get into the game, even if it means fouling out.
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Harry will be fine.
Something we agree on. The equivalent of a red shirt freshman big who is inconsistent. Never have I heard of such a thing.