MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Eldon on July 21, 2017, 07:42:55 AM
-
A new report from student loan lender Sallie Mae found that families living in the Northeast are more likely than the rest of the US to consider the quality of a university's academic program when choosing a school, rather than the price tag.
Notably, families in the Northeast spend about 70% more on college than those living in the West, Midwest, and South, borrowing money and using parent contributions at a higher rate to cover the cost.
The typical family in the Northeast pays $35,431 for college. That's nearly twice the average amount spent by families in the West — $19,181 — while families in the Midwest and the South pay $21,577 and $20,953, respectively.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/families-northeast-spend-70-more-141200213.html
tl;dr: People on the East Coast love the name of the school, cost be damned. Where is MUFNY when you need him?
-
Why don't they just go to the Harvard of the midwest
Side note: I'm a bit out of touch with my generation's internet speak etiquette, but aren't you supposed to put the tl;dr disclosure before someone finishes your post? ;)
tl;dr: People on the East Coast love the name of the school, cost be damned. Where is MUFNY when you need him?
-
I'm not surprised that NE families spend more; I was surprised by the amount of the difference.
I don't like to generalize, but in my experience (as a child of the Northeast), "prestige" was extremely important to my friends and their parents. Even the No. 1 factor in many, many cases.
-
tl;dr: People on the East Coast love the name of the school, cost be damned. Where is MUFNY when you need him?
Exactly. When I lived on the East Coast, I had a friend who graduated from a public high school in a tony Boston suburb near the top of her class. She told me that at commencement, it was a tradition at their school to announce where the student was going to go to college as they crossed the stage. When it was her turn, it was "Chick's Friend, University of Massachusetts".
After the ceremony, her parents were approached by several people who all said something along the lines of "UMass? What happened? Did she bomb her SATs or something?"
Fortunately, my friend overcame the handicap of an inferior education and is a top executive at a major company.
-
I'm not surprised that NE families spend more; I was surprised by the amount of the difference.
I don't like to generalize, but in my experience (as a child of the Northeast), "prestige" was extremely important to my friends and their parents. Even the No. 1 factor in many, many cases.
In Boston a stranger asks you three and only three questions. What specific town do you live in? What car do you drive? Where did you go to school?
We absolutely hated it out there.
-
Exactly. When I lived on the East Coast, I had a friend who graduated from a public high school in a tony Boston suburb near the top of her class. She told me that at commencement, it was a tradition at their school to announce where the student was going to go to college as they crossed the stage. When it was her turn, it was "Chick's Friend, University of Massachusetts".
After the ceremony, her parents were approached by several people who all said something along the lines of "UMass? What happened? Did she bomb her SATs or something?"
Fortunately, my friend overcame the handicap of an inferior education and is a top executive at a major company.
Asking largely out of ignorance of how things operate out there, but isn't there an argument that it was actually more economically risky in the long run for your friend to save money and go to UMass than to have taken out a boatload of debt to go to one of the schools she was expected to attend? It sounds counterintuitive, but given where she was from, the attitudes as I understand them, and the job pipeline/alumni networks, reaching the C-Suite was basically assumed if her resume read as people expected. Sure there would have been the debt to pay off, and your friend is doing great on her own merits, but I could certainly see the appeal of just going to the prestige school regardless of cost if it made the path to success (and a fat salary) significantly more mapped out when I graduated high school at 18.
-
Asking largely out of ignorance of how things operate out there, but isn't there an argument that it was actually more economically risky in the long run for your friend to save money and go to UMass than to have taken out a boatload of debt to go to one of the schools she was expected to attend? It sounds counterintuitive, but given where she was from, the attitudes as I understand them, and the job pipeline/alumni networks, reaching the C-Suite was basically assumed if her resume read as people expected. Sure there would have been the debt to pay off, and your friend is doing great on her own merits, but I could certainly see the appeal of just going to the prestige school regardless of cost if it made the path to success (and a fat salary) significantly more mapped out when I graduated high school at 18.
Perhaps, but what one can't appreciate unless they live in the Northeast is how so very much folks out there judge others on the stereotypes of perceived economic and social class. 'You're from Milwaukee? I'm so sorry.' Seriously, it's THAT bad.
-
2X for a lower acceptance rate, ai-na?
-
After the ceremony, her parents were approached by several people who all said something along the lines of "UMass? What happened? Did she bomb her SATs or something?"
Fortunately, my friend overcame the handicap of an inferior education and is a top executive at a major company.
That often happens in the Midwest too. Same stigma with going to an affordable college. If they don't say it to you personally, they say it to your friends.
-
That often happens in the Midwest too. Same stigma with going to an affordable college. If they don't say it to you personally, they say it to your friends.
Honestly, I have never heard that. And I would assume that I would be hearing that about other people.
-
Perhaps, but what one can't appreciate unless they live in the Northeast is how so very much folks out there judge others on the stereotypes of perceived economic and social class. 'You're from Milwaukee? I'm so sorry.' Seriously, it's THAT bad.
Who the heck were you hanging out with? I've lived in New England for 55 years, and I do not ever recall being asked in a casual conversation what college I went to or what car I drove, unless the conversation was specifically about college experiences or cars, which is not very common. I'm more likely to volunteer I went to Marquette than to be asked about it. Far more common to be asked where you work or what high school you went to, usually to see if a new acquaintance and you may have common friends, pretty much like anywhere else, I expect.
Families here are just like families anywhere else. Believe it or not we play softball and go to bars and drink beer (though we're not as snooty about the choice of beer as you Wisconsinites) and have cookouts like pretty much everyone else. People usually send their kids to the best schools the kid can get into that the family can afford. Most kids in CT go to UConn or one of the other state schools or one of the seemingly thousands colleges of all varieties in the MA/CT/NY/NJ area. The wealthy families send their kids to Ivy League schools and Georgetown (which is crazy popular among Fairfield County residents). My wife and I have one child, and since we were both working fulltime since we were married and had the foresight to put away money from the start for college, could afford to send our kid anywhere. He ended up selecting a Patriot League school, and after his junior year had a dozen high-paying internship offers and after graduation had a line of recruiters trying to entice him to go work for them, as did pretty much all of his classmates. His state school friends definitely did not have the same level of opportunities. Not sure why sending your kid to a school you can afford at which he'll be happy that gives him the best chance of success is a snobby Northeast thing. If it is, I guess I'm a snobby Northeasterner.
-
Perhaps, but what one can't appreciate unless they live in the Northeast is how so very much folks out there judge others on the stereotypes of perceived economic and social class. 'You're from Milwaukee? I'm so sorry.' Seriously, it's THAT bad.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/rwXvicYWP49gI/giphy.gif)
-
Who the heck were you hanging out with? I've lived in New England for 55 years, and I do not ever recall being asked in a casual conversation what college I went to or what car I drove, unless the conversation was specifically about college experiences or cars, which is not very common. I'm more likely to volunteer I went to Marquette than to be asked about it. Far more common to be asked where you work or what high school you went to, usually to see if a new acquaintance and you may have common friends, pretty much like anywhere else, I expect.
Families here are just like families anywhere else. Believe it or not we play softball and go to bars and drink beer (though we're not as snooty about the choice of beer as you Wisconsinites) and have cookouts like pretty much everyone else. People usually send their kids to the best schools the kid can get into that the family can afford. Most kids in CT go to UConn or one of the other state schools or one of the seemingly thousands colleges of all varieties in the MA/CT/NY/NJ area. The wealthy families send their kids to Ivy League schools and Georgetown (which is crazy popular among Fairfield County residents). My wife and I have one child, and since we were both working fulltime since we were married and had the foresight to put away money from the start for college, could afford to send our kid anywhere. He ended up selecting a Patriot League school, and after his junior year had a dozen high-paying internship offers and after graduation had a line of recruiters trying to entice him to go work for them, as did pretty much all of his classmates. His state school friends definitely did not have the same level of opportunities. Not sure why sending your kid to a school you can afford at which he'll be happy that gives him the best chance of success is a snobby Northeast thing. If it is, I guess I'm a snobby Northeasterner.
Absolutely NOTHING against you CT. But I think that unless one is from the outside one can't see it. Now NYC (and probably CT as an extension), completely different story in my experience. So many transplants, especially in Manhattan. Again, everyone's mileage varies. But the term 'Mpretty boy' doesn't spring from nothing.
WOW, a scoop autocorrect!
-
That often happens in the Midwest too. Same stigma with going to an affordable college. If they don't say it to you personally, they say it to your friends.
They only say that about Whitewater and Oshkosh! ;D
-
That often happens in the Midwest too. Same stigma with going to an affordable college. If they don't say it to you personally, they say it to your friends.
Grew up in CT and spent my first 18 years there. Spent the next 32 years in the Midwest. Have lived in NC since 2010.
Definitely more of a "thing" where I grew up. In the Midwest, it was more if you were going to Northwestern or Harvard or Stanford or wherever, people being impressed but not necessarily making faces when you weren't going to one of those schools. My son went to Illinois - a good state university but not Northwestern or Chicago or Notre Dame - and everybody offered sincere congrats and seemed impressed with that. If we had still lived in CT and he had opted for UConn, there likely would have been more "lookin' down the nose" at it.
Interestingly, because of my timing, folks where I grew up were pretty impressed with my Marquette decision. I made the decision in the winter of 1978, so we were the defending national basketball champions and were looking ready to make another nice NCAA run. So there was name recognition.
Here in the south, it's not a thing at all. If you can string two sentences together, and stick in a homey "y'all," they're very impressed! ;)
-
Appropriate for this thread ..
Since 1999 / 18 years .. Americans have 137% more auto debt. 99% more mortgage debt. 23% more credit card debt.
And 828% more student loan debt. Eight-hundred-Twenty-Eight Percent !!
https://www.axios.com/american-household-debt-2458678450.html
-
I will add this. I've heard that until recent years Milwaukee felt somewhat 'closed' for outsiders and that the influx of educated outsiders say in the last 10-15 years has helped some. I can absolutely see that. Forever I have said how every Milwaukeean should be required to live somewhere else for two years before being allowed to return home. Maybe then they won't bitch about $5 parking downtown or that Summerfest is up to a ghastly $15. Too many in MKE don't know how absolutely great they've got it.
-
Grew up in CT and spent my first 18 years there. Spent the next 32 years in the Midwest. Have lived in NC since 2010.
Definitely more of a "thing" where I grew up. In the Midwest, it was more if you were going to Northwestern or Harvard or Stanford or wherever, people being impressed but not necessarily making faces when you weren't going to one of those schools. My son went to Illinois - a good state university but not Northwestern or Chicago or Notre Dame - and everybody offered sincere congrats and seemed impressed with that. If we had still lived in CT and he had opted for UConn, there likely would have been more "lookin' down the nose" at it.
Interestingly, because of my timing, folks where I grew up were pretty impressed with my Marquette decision. I made the decision in the winter of 1978, so we were the defending national basketball champions and were looking ready to make another nice NCAA run. So there was name recognition.
Here in the south, it's not a thing at all. If you can string two sentences together, and stick in a homey "y'all," they're very impressed! ;)
I don't know what it is about this topic that gets my goat.
Geez, MU82. You and I are about the same age. Back then people were just impressed that you were going to a four year college at all! Way more kids go to UConn or the state schools like Southern or Western or UMass than go to prestigious private schools so there must be an awful lot of "lookin' down the nose at". Sure, there are wealthy folks that think that way, but those people exist everywhere. I see little evidence from your upper middle-class families on down (my social circle, which is also 90+% of the population) that there is anything like that. Maybe I'm just hanging and working with the wrong (or right) people.
-
Appropriate for this thread ..
Since 1999 / 18 years .. Americans have 137% more auto debt. 99% more mortgage debt. 23% more credit card debt.
And 828% more student loan debt. Eight-hundred-Twenty-Eight Percent !!
https://www.axios.com/american-household-debt-2458678450.html
Hope ya got da 529 thin' goin' on, hey?
-
I will add this. I've heard that until recent years Milwaukee felt somewhat 'closed' for outsiders and that the influx of educated outsiders say in the last 10-15 years has helped some. I can absolutely see that. Forever I have said how every Milwaukeean should be required to live somewhere else for two years before being allowed to return home. Maybe then they won't bitch about $5 parking downtown or that Summerfest is up to a ghastly $15. Too many in MKE don't know how absolutely great they've got it.
+1
-
Who the heck were you hanging out with? I've lived in New England for 55 years, and I do not ever recall being asked in a casual conversation what college I went to or what car I drove, unless the conversation was specifically about college experiences or cars, which is not very common. I'm more likely to volunteer I went to Marquette than to be asked about it. Far more common to be asked where you work or what high school you went to, usually to see if a new acquaintance and you may have common friends, pretty much like anywhere else, I expect.
Families here are just like families anywhere else. Believe it or not we play softball and go to bars and drink beer (though we're not as snooty about the choice of beer as you Wisconsinites) and have cookouts like pretty much everyone else. People usually send their kids to the best schools the kid can get into that the family can afford. Most kids in CT go to UConn or one of the other state schools or one of the seemingly thousands colleges of all varieties in the MA/CT/NY/NJ area. The wealthy families send their kids to Ivy League schools and Georgetown (which is crazy popular among Fairfield County residents). My wife and I have one child, and since we were both working fulltime since we were married and had the foresight to put away money from the start for college, could afford to send our kid anywhere. He ended up selecting a Patriot League school, and after his junior year had a dozen high-paying internship offers and after graduation had a line of recruiters trying to entice him to go work for them, as did pretty much all of his classmates. His state school friends definitely did not have the same level of opportunities. Not sure why sending your kid to a school you can afford at which he'll be happy that gives him the best chance of success is a snobby Northeast thing. If it is, I guess I'm a snobby Northeasterner.
This turn in the thread rubs me the wrong way too. The third Connecticut Yankee needs to chime in.
Other than my 4 years at Marquette I've lived in New England my whole life. I never hear at the top of anyone's question list "what school did you go to?" either. I'm also more likely to volunteer I went to Marquette than to be asked about it, which is a thing that bothers my wife!
Most kids seem to target UConn or another Northeast Public Institution. If they're looking private I hear a lot kids looking to stay local for Qunnipiac or Fairfield U or University of Hartford or go to a school in the DC area (which seems to be popular).
Back in 1987 through today people are pretty impressed that I attended Marquette also! And older people are all familiar with the '70s era basketball team. Younger people say, "Dwyane Wade!"
I don't understand the Northeast hate? I do know that New Englanders are very particular about education only because it's been that way since the Pilgrims landed.
-
Another one of my Massachusetts expressions.
'They really do believe that the world ends at the Berkshire mountains'.
I know you guys here on scoop are fine people and I'm sincerely glad you're happy out there. When you find a group of 'non-natives', especially in metro Boston that feel the same way, please let me know. The exception might be if someone went to college in the Hub (even that's elitist). That seemed to get one into the club. And I must add, our experience out there was 30 years ago during the so-called Massachusetts Miracle time period. Perhaps things are different.
Chick and I really disliked it. But that's why we live in a great county and can migrate to where we want. Have a great weekend all. Well, except for you Pats fans! Kidding, kidding.
-
Another one of my Massachusetts expressions.
'They really do believe that the world ends at the Berkshire mountains'.
I know you guys here on scoop are fine people and I'm sincerely glad you're happy out there. When you find a group of 'non-natives', especially in metro Boston that feel the same way, please let me know. The exception might be if someone went to college in the Hub (even that's elitist). That seemed to get one into the club. And I must add, our experience out there was 30 years ago during the so-called Massachusetts Miracle time period. Perhaps things are different.
Chick and I really disliked it. But that's why we live in a great county and can migrate to where we want. Have a great weekend all. Well, except for you Pats fans! Kidding, kidding.
On another note, my fellow Nutmeggers can probably address is there is Boston and then there is the rest of New England. For example, outside of New England people assume everyone is a Boston Red Sox fan. In Connecticut & Rhode Island there are probably just as many Yankee fans. Don't mistake Boston for the rest of New England.
-
On another note, my fellow Nutmeggers can probably address is there is Boston and then there is the rest of New England. For example, outside of New England people assume everyone is a Boston Red Sox fan. In Connecticut & Rhode Island there are probably just as many Yankee fans. Don't mistake Boston for the rest of New England.
100% true. That was very much our experience.
-
I grew up in New Brunswick, NJ. I lived about a mile where the first college football game was played between Princeton and Rutgers. Within a 50 mile radius there are a plethora of highly regarded colleges and universities: Princeton, Columbia, Yale, University of Pennsylvania and Rutgers. Then the the Catholic Schools as well, like Villanova, La Salle, St. Joes, Fordham, and St. Johns. I chose Marquette because as an only child I wanted to experience being on my own and at the time Dentistry interested me and MU had and still has a great school of Dentistry. (I did not become a Dentist).
After graduating and returning to New Jersey I joined a local community theatre group in Princeton which a few Princeton students belonged. During rehearsal they would study and I noticed that they had the same Biology, Chemistry, English, and Western Civ text books I had at MU. I realized my education at MU was essentially no different than at Princeton. If there was a difference it was that "Princeton" probably opened a few more doors than "Marquette".
As for paying more for college: My daughter was not sure what she wanted to do. So I told her to go to the community college until she figured it out. The tuition at the community college for two years was less than the tuition at Rutgers for one semester and Rutgers was not that expensive about 3 or 4K in 2003 IRCC.
She decided to go to Rider for an accounting degree. All her Credits transferred so we only had to pay 2 full years of tuition for a BA in accounting.
After that, it is your work experience that really counts.
-
I don't know what it is about this topic that gets my goat.
Geez, MU82. You and I are about the same age. Back then people were just impressed that you were going to a four year college at all! Way more kids go to UConn or the state schools like Southern or Western or UMass than go to prestigious private schools so there must be an awful lot of "lookin' down the nose at". Sure, there are wealthy folks that think that way, but those people exist everywhere. I see little evidence from your upper middle-class families on down (my social circle, which is also 90+% of the population) that there is anything like that. Maybe I'm just hanging and working with the wrong (or right) people.
Again, I hate generalizing, and I probably just heard from the wrong few people. You probably have had a much more definitive "Connecticut experience" than I did all those years ago. I haven't been a New Englander since I was 18.
So, I should have listened to my mom and not said anything at all if I couldn't have said anything nice!
-
Again, I hate generalizing, and I probably just heard from the wrong few people. You probably have had a much more definitive "Connecticut experience" than I did all those years ago. I haven't been a New Englander since I was 18.
So, I should have listened to my mom and not said anything at all if I couldn't have said anything nice!
That's no fun! Nobody here said anything nasty about anyone in particular. ;D
-
This turn in the thread rubs me the wrong way too. The third Connecticut Yankee needs to chime in.
I think this may be directed at me.
I have been here in total for about 10 years. I don't find the people here any better or worse than anywhere else. From a materialistic perspective its not even close to some other places I have lived. My college attendance has come up quite a bit, but it is usually because people up here like to talk about college bball. Most have nice things to say about the school and the program.
I would say the NE is a little insular to some extent - what areas aren't. I imagine part of it is because you can do so much in a very small area. Also you don't have to go a long distance to reach multiple nationally recognized universities (lots of choices).
If someone had a bad experience, I can understand that, I know people that have had bad experiences all over the country. I would say its a little ironic that someone throws out a charge thrown out about stereotypes - then proceeds to generalize a whole region/state...
-
I'm a southwestern CT native, and just recently bought a home there after living in NYC for 25 years. It's fair to say the town we moved to, which coincidentally is my home town, is a "tony" suburb akin to a north shore Chicago suburb like Lake Forest or Winnetka. Roughly 20% of the public high school graduates in town matriculate at Ivy or Ivy caliber schools such as Williams, or Amherst or Duke so the academic snobbery many are referring to is alive and well and competition to gain admission is intense. That said, 80% of the student body ends up going to far less rarefied institutions of higher learning so while 20% is a very high number, it's still a minority.
I don't get the northeastern hate. To me this is a non story. Northeasterners pay more for college because the cost of living here is much higher and there are a lot more private liberal arts colleges out here for people to go to so a higher percentage of students attend them compared to the Midwest or say CA which has robust state system that's becoming ever more competitive, and actually part of the reason MU is getting more and more students from CA every year. CA is MU's 3rd highest draw after IL and WI. Even more than MN.
In any event, I'm getting off track here. My point is, even the less prestigious private schools here are just as expensive as the ivies so to me, this has far more to do with cost of living differences and the fact that there are so many more smaller private schools here, than snobbery since the "name" schools only take so many kids.
I'm guessing there's just as much snobbery in the affluent north shore suburbs or for that matter the north shore MKE burbs, but instead of Williams or Amherst or Middlebury, they're talking about Northwestern, UofC, Michigan, Oberlin, Kenyon etc. Not much difference as those schools are just as highly regarded among northeasterners as the ivys and such.
-
Appropriate for this thread ..
Since 1999 / 18 years .. Americans have 137% more auto debt. 99% more mortgage debt. 23% more credit card debt.
And 828% more student loan debt. Eight-hundred-Twenty-Eight Percent !!
https://www.axios.com/american-household-debt-2458678450.html
I think that belongs in your Daily Dose of Doom thread
-
This turn in the thread rubs me the wrong way too. The third Connecticut Yankee needs to chime in.
Other than my 4 years at Marquette I've lived in New England my whole life. I never hear at the top of anyone's question list "what school did you go to?" either. I'm also more likely to volunteer I went to Marquette than to be asked about it, which is a thing that bothers my wife!
Out of curiosity... why does it bother your wife? Would it bother your wife if you had gone to Harvard and volunteered the info?
During my GA work in Straz Hall, I did some data compilation for a brand loyalty survey that identified respondents only by age, gender, and locale... I can say from experience that the Mid-Atlantic and New England regions (essentially everything east of Ohio and north of Maryland) were the most likely to strongly identify with high-end and luxury brands and the second most likely (behind California) to align themselves with a brand because of how they may be judged externally.
So in defense of the New Englanders, for many it might not be so much an inherent desire to look down their noses at other people as it is not wanting to be looked down from the noses of their peers. And from there, it turns into stereotyping when observed from the outside. Just like people from all over the country think that all Wisconsinites drink beer and eat cheese... well, we only drink beer and eat cheese because that's all our parents gave us to eat and drink growing up, and we just got used to it.
-
Geez, I sure hate when those snobby, pretentious, status-obsessed northeastern elitists stereotype us Midwesterners as a bunch of slack-jawed yokels from flyover country.
-
Out of curiosity... why does it bother your wife? Would it bother your wife if you had gone to Harvard and volunteered the info?
1) Why? - It happens too frequently in her opinion. :)
2) Yes, it would still bother her.
-
1) Why? - It happens too frequently in her opinion. :)
2) Yes, it would still bother her.
That makes sense. I suppose if I had a trophy wife, nothing would be more tarnishing than her blabbing about her excellent college education.
-
A new report from student loan lender Sallie Mae found that families living in the Northeast are more likely than the rest of the US to consider the quality of a university's academic program when choosing a school, rather than the price tag.
Notably, families in the Northeast spend about 70% more on college than those living in the West, Midwest, and South, borrowing money and using parent contributions at a higher rate to cover the cost.
The typical family in the Northeast pays $35,431 for college. That's nearly twice the average amount spent by families in the West — $19,181 — while families in the Midwest and the South pay $21,577 and $20,953, respectively.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/families-northeast-spend-70-more-141200213.html
tl;dr: People on the East Coast love the name of the school, cost be damned. Where is MUFNY when you need him?
There is some practical basis in this analysis. The most populous state in the Northeast, New York , has a very mediocre state university that absolutely no one aspires to( with the exception of the ag department at Cornell which is public). As such many people would rather pay up for a private university or will bite the bullet and pay up for a decent out of state public.
-
During my GA work in Straz Hall, I did some data compilation for a brand loyalty survey that identified respondents only by age, gender, and locale... I can say from experience that the Mid-Atlantic and New England regions (essentially everything east of Ohio and north of Maryland) were the most likely to strongly identify with high-end and luxury brands and the second most likely (behind California) to align themselves with a brand because of how they may be judged externally.
So in defense of the New Englanders, for many it might not be so much an inherent desire to look down their noses at other people as it is not wanting to be looked down from the noses of their peers. And from there, it turns into stereotyping when observed from the outside.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. The reason the Northeasterners and CA residents are more likely to identify with high end and luxury brands is because there's a higher concentration of very high income people in those areas who can actually afford them, so again I think this has far more to do with much higher cost of living / higher income than snobbery. When the same questions are asked of folks in areas where incomes/housing costs are much lower and people don't routinely stay at Ritz Carltons and buy Jimmy Choo shoes and Louis Vuitton bags because they can't afford to, they're not going to identify with those brands as much. I don't think it has as much to do with Northeastern snobbery or CA superficiality. Not saying neither exists, just that there are some obvious reasons for those results that shouldn't surprise anyone.
-
I will add this. I've heard that until recent years Milwaukee felt somewhat 'closed' for outsiders and that the influx of educated outsiders say in the last 10-15 years has helped some. I can absolutely see that. Forever I have said how every Milwaukeean should be required to live somewhere else for two years before being allowed to return home. Maybe then they won't bitch about $5 parking downtown or that Summerfest is up to a ghastly $15. Too many in MKE don't know how absolutely great they've got it.
That is a great idea. I grew up in Santa Monica and have lived in Milwaukee since Marquette (2002) and I have given up trying to answer people from Milwaukee when they ask me why I live here. Everyone one from LA that comes to visit looses their mind about how much fun they have here without traffic and $15 bud light
-
That is a great idea. I grew up in Santa Monica and have lived in Milwaukee since Marquette (2002) and I have given up trying to answer people from Milwaukee when they ask me why I live here. Everyone one from LA that comes to visit looses their mind about how much fun they have here without traffic and $15 bud light
We have good friends that we served on the Parents Board with who had a daughter that came to Marquette from Orange County. It was their first experience with MKE. She graduated about 3 years ago and they still travel here regularly and constantly gush about it. We've teased them suggesting that they buy a condo. I honestly wouldn't put it past them.
And you know what? That mixing of blood from the outside is healthy. Folks like that are able to tell the 'forever locals' to STFU when they complain that it takes them a whole 20 minutes to drive downtown.
-
Honestly, I have never heard that. And I would assume that I would be hearing that about other people.
Very late reply, but, I friends kid finished as valedictorian, very sold ACT/SAT scores. When it came to local scholarships essentially got none of them. When I asked why, I was told that the people offering the scholarships get to choose the recipient and most offering higher dollar scholarships were doing it for publicity and didn't want to waste their money on a kid going to a cheap state school.
Many parents also snickered about how it was shameful for the family to waste their kids talents. The kid made the decision to save money, has since turned out to be extremely successful.
Have heard many similar statements from parents over the years. The parents doing this are typically upper/upper-middle class, who are very concerned about stature. There are more in that demographic (as others have noted) in the east and west, so it is a bit more common, but it is a demographics issue, not a locale.
-
We have good friends that we served on the Parents Board with who had a daughter that came to Marquette from Orange County. It was their first experience with MKE. She graduated about 3 years ago and they still travel here regularly and constantly gush about it. We've teased them suggesting that they buy a condo. I honestly wouldn't put it past them.
And you know what? That mixing of blood from the outside is healthy. Folks like that are able to tell the 'forever locals' to STFU when they complain that it takes them a whole 20 minutes to drive downtown.
God bless them and their LA POV. Glow and I smiled when they recommended the Pfister to someone who was looking for a modestly priced hotel in Milwaukee because it is only $200/night.
-
There is some practical basis in this analysis. The most populous state in the Northeast, New York , has a very mediocre state university that absolutely no one aspires to( with the exception of the ag department at Cornell which is public). As such many people would rather pay up for a private university or will bite the bullet and pay up for a decent out of state public.
So when and how does that "free college" start in New York.
I can see some folks moving to the state just send their kid to college regardless of how "mediocre" it is.
-
So when and how does that "free college" start in New York.
I can see some folks moving to the state just send their kid to college regardless of how "mediocre" it is.
They are only mediocre if you are a East Coast snob. 4 of the SUNY schools are ranked in the top 100 by USNWR.
-
They are only mediocre if you are a East Coast snob. 4 of the SUNY schools are ranked in the top 100 by USNWR.
I'm guessing Binghamton, Stony Brook, Buffalo and....who? Albany?
-
I'm guessing Binghamton, Stony Brook, Buffalo and....who? Albany?
Environmental Science and Forestry...seriously.
-
I'm guessing Binghamton, Stony Brook, Buffalo and....who? Albany?
That would be SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse....squeaking in at #99.
Go Mighty Oaks!
-
They are only mediocre if you are a East Coast snob. 4 of the SUNY schools are ranked in the top 100 by USNWR.
This discusion is about why people pay higher tuition in the Northeast. Which is what I was responding too.
Absolutely no one aspires to go to a SUNY in New York. It is simply not in the mindset. I have been on school boards at top ranked public high schools and have reviewed admissions patterns for years. It is not snobbishness at all. People would rather spend their money on some school like Denison or Dickinson or Getttysburg than send their kid to Binghampton. Or alternatively they will pay out of state Tuition to go to some place like Michigan , UNC , Cal, Virginia etc. I am not saying that is always a smart decision at all. In fact it is in many cases its a lousy economic decision. I actually think a lot of the people sending their kids to private schools should send their kids to Community College first, but that is another discussion.
If New York had a reasonable flagship state school like U Conn, Penn State, Pitt, Vermont, New Hampshire and other states in the Northeast then maybe things would be different in terms of the willingness to pay higher tuition. In the midwest there are so many good state schools that people are proud to go to , the case has to be made for spending the additional money for private.
This whole discussion is why I am so keen on MU reverse engineering its US News ranking. There is now way in the world that MU and SUNY Binghampton are remotely in the same league academically or , college experience wise, yet they both have the same US News ranking.
As far as I am concerned MU should be in the same category as Villanova with aspiration to be moving toward BC level.
The guy at Northeastern is a genius who reverse engineered their rankings from 147 to 39 and they became a self full filling prophecy where kids and families are now excited to go there, and as a result they have been able to build an incredible coop program that students and employers are flocking too. A virtuous circle.
-
This discusion is about why people pay higher tuition in the Northeast. Which is what I was responding too.
Absolutely no one aspires to go to a SUNY in New York. It is simply not in the mindset. I have been on school boards at top ranked public high schools and have reviewed admissions patterns for years. It is not snobbishness at all. People would rather spend their money on some school like Denison or Dickinson or Getttysburg than send their kid to Binghampton. Or alternatively they will pay out of state Tuition to go to some place like Michigan , UNC , Cal, Virginia etc. I am not saying that is always a smart decision at all. In fact it is in many cases its a lousy economic decision. I actually think a lot of the people sending their kids to private schools should send their kids to Community College first, but that is another discussion.
If New York had a reasonable flagship state school like U Conn, Penn State, Pitt, Vermont, New Hampshire and other states in the Northeast then maybe things would be different in terms of the willingness to pay higher tuition. In the midwest there are so many good state schools that people are proud to go to , the case has to be made for spending the additional money for private.
This whole discussion is why I am so keen on MU reverse engineering its US News ranking. There is now way in the world that MU and SUNY Binghampton are remotely in the same league academically or , college experience wise, yet they both have the same US News ranking.
As far as I am concerned MU should be in the same category as Villanova with aspiration to be moving toward BC level.
The guy at Northeastern is a genius who reverse engineered their rankings from 147 to 39 and they became a self full filling prophecy where kids and families are now excited to go there, and as a result they have been able to build an incredible coop program that students and employers are flocking too. A virtuous circle.
As a fellow NYC metro area resident, I agree with most of Jackie's sentiments. He is right that the SUNY schools are rarely the first choice of students or their parents that are in a certain social strata and live in the right type of suburb. The type of people who live in certain Westchester Co. suburban towns with annual property taxes of $20K+ even for the few modest homes one can buy in these places that cost less than $1M, and yes, $1M will only buy you a very modest home in most of these areas. Maybe a 1700 Sq ft home built 100 years ago that shares a driveway and doesn't have a garage that needs six figures worth of renovations to get it up to snuff. That's why we moved to CT. Better housing stock and half the annual property taxes, but a longer commute.
SUNY Binghamton and Stonybrook are good schools and academically at least as good as MU, I would guess they're both slightly better and have slightly higher test scores and a lower acceptance rate too, but have no facts to verify my gut instinct so I disagree with Jackie that they're not in the same league as MU academically. They definitely are. In terms of College experience though, Jackie is right, MU is much better as are all the other state schools that he mentioned for whom parents in this area happily shell out out of state tuition that rivals the ivys and is more than Marquette's in many cases. SUNY athletics are all D3 and most students go home on weekends so their campuses are nothing like UNC, UVA, Cal, etc.
But that's why MU needs to take rankings more seriously. My high school sends 10 kids a year to Madison. Maybe more and they have for 30 years. I live in Southern CT for god's sake! MU thinks people here aren't willing to travel to go to a school like MU and and pay private school tuition yet people routinely pay just as much if not more to go to Bucky and it drives me insane.
MU has taken some great steps forward on the research front, moving up in the Carnegie Classification rankings, and they maintain a dashboard to see how they compare themselves to other slighter higher US news ranked schools on all kinds of other academic criteria, but as long as they continue to have a 75% acceptance rate, that really cancels out much of the good progress they're making in these other areas and they either write that off as irrelevant or flat out refuse to acknowledge the negative impact our high acceptance rate has on the brand in the northeastern US. Here is a link to the dashboard for those of you that are interested. There's some fascinating stuff on there if you have the time to go through it.
http://www.marquette.edu/strategic-planning/theme-academic-excellence.php
http://www.marquette.edu/strategic-planning/referents.php
When one googles any top 100 institution, the stat that is front and center is the acceptance rate, not how many people return following Freshman year, or how many graduate in 4 years and then how many graduate in 6 years. To say things like we don't want east coast snobs with those attitudes infiltrating our campus is not helpful. If MU wants to move up they need to play the game a little bit. I would not advocate doing what Northeastern did since they completely manipulated everything, but give them credit.....It did work.
If MU wants to be taken more seriously and become a destination school for more students in the Northeast, they need to get that stat down. The acceptance rate of the schools on the dashboard and how MU compares to them is nowhere in sight so I think they're well aware of the issue.... they just choose to ignore that stat, despite it being the most readily accessible stat of all, because MU looks pathetic by comparison, so the only conclusion I can draw is they don't want to double the staff of the admissions office to process the substantially more applications it would take to get the acceptance rate down.
All I've ever asked for is they get it down to the 55-60% range where it's historically been. MU is never going to achieve BC like status in the academic world. That's not going to happen but they are a better school then they're ranked, Jackie is absolutely right about that and it frustrates us both that they don't act like it.
-
Thank God Marquette doesn't care about acceptance rate. It's a meaningless stat. If kids go elsewhere because of it, fine by me. If those kids or their parents think it is indicative of "quality," then they're idiots.
And if that means that they aren't viewed favorably in the northeast. Oh well...
-
Thank God Marquette doesn't care about acceptance rate. It's a meaningless stat. If kids go elsewhere because of it, fine by me. If those kids or their parents think it is indicative of "quality," then they're idiots.
And if that means that they aren't viewed favorably in the northeast. Oh well...
It's meaningless in terms of the quality of the education the institution provides, I agree with that and MU wouldn't become a better school overnight because they accepted 15% less students, BUT they would be perceived to be a better school. Again I agree with everyone who says that stat has no bearing on quality, but because some people feel otherwise they have to at least take it into consideration. In an era when the cost of private higher education continues to skyrocket, the notion that MU isn't doing everything it can to enhance their brand (including exclusivity) is mind boggling. If MU doesn't think it's an issue why don't they own the stat and wear it as a badge of honor and say we know we're great despite the fact that we let almost everybody in? I wouldn't necessarily agree with that Trumpian approach but I'd at least respect them for giving the finger to the academic elite. Would it work that's the question?
Instead they go out of their way to hide it and don't use the single most readily accessible stat that every school publishes to compare how they stack up against others. Again I say all this as someone who is in total agreement that acceptance rate is meaningless in terms of academic quality, but it absolutely unequivocally is NOT meaningless as a recruiting tool.
-
Here's what MU is really interested in. 2,000 Frosh every year with a slow uptick in student quality. What they'd also like is not to have to subsidize quite as many via scholarship with the endowment as it currently stands but that's not practical at the moment.
Let's remember, MU is located in an area of declining local college age matriculation candidates. Our bread and butter was always Wisconsin and Illinois and those simply aren't and won't be growth markets. The first two years of the new targeted admissions recruiting has been an acknowledged success in achieving the university's goal of maintaining the Frosh class size and standard. If that flies in the face of some folks expectation in some parts of the country, the university is willing to live with that. The perceived yield is just too small for the massive investment necessary. Purposefully gone are the days of 25,000 apps. coupled with lots of rejections.
Frankly, I hear way more about Admission's west coast activity. I honestly think they believe that they get way more bang for the buck out there.
-
It's meaningless in terms of the quality of the education the institution provides, I agree with that and MU wouldn't become a better school overnight because they accepted 15% less students, BUT they would be perceived to be a better school. Again I agree with everyone who says that stat has no bearing on quality, but because some people feel otherwise they have to at least take it into consideration. In an era when the cost of private higher education continues to skyrocket, the notion that MU isn't doing everything it can to enhance their brand (including exclusivity) is mind boggling. If MU doesn't think it's an issue why don't they own the stat and wear it as a badge of honor and say we know we're great despite the fact that we let almost everybody in? I wouldn't necessarily agree with that Trumpian approach but I'd at least respect them for giving the finger to the academic elite. Would it work that's the question?
Instead they go out of their way to hide it and don't use the single most readily accessible stat that every school publishes to compare how they stack up against others. Again I say all this as someone who is in total agreement that acceptance rate is meaningless in terms of academic quality, but it absolutely unequivocally is NOT meaningless as a recruiting tool.
So you are advocating that a University push a stat as an indicator of quality even though it isn't an indicator of quality? That is pretty much the exact opposite of what higher education should be doing.
-
I didn't want to start a new thread, but how crazy is this?
U.C. Irvine Rescinds Acceptances for Hundreds of Applicants
Just two months before they were to begin classes, 499 young men and women who had been accepted to the University of California, Irvine, received letters informing them that their acceptances had been rescinded.
The letters that went out starting last week left students scrambling to either appeal the decision or make other plans for the fall.
“This is not a typical year,” Tom Vasich, a spokesman for the university, said in a phone interview on Friday. He said the problem arose because “more students than we expected accepted admission to the university.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/29/us/uc-irvine-acceptance-rejected.html
I guess that's one of the pitfalls of playing the yield game.
-
I didn't want to start a new thread, but how crazy is this?
U.C. Irvine Rescinds Acceptances for Hundreds of Applicants
Just two months before they were to begin classes, 499 young men and women who had been accepted to the University of California, Irvine, received letters informing them that their acceptances had been rescinded.
The letters that went out starting last week left students scrambling to either appeal the decision or make other plans for the fall.
“This is not a typical year,” Tom Vasich, a spokesman for the university, said in a phone interview on Friday. He said the problem arose because “more students than we expected accepted admission to the university.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/29/us/uc-irvine-acceptance-rejected.html
I guess that's one of the pitfalls of playing the yield game.
WOW. I suspect that there might be a class action possible out of this. I'm not an attorney and don't play one on TV but I smell damages.
-
WOW. I suspect that there might be a class action possible out of this. I'm not an attorney and don't play one on TV but I smell damages.
The acceptance letter is conditional and mentions this as a possibility.
-
There are approximately 2,500 four year colleges & universities in the United States. Being ranked in the top 100 means a school is among the top 4% of all colleges & universities in the U.S.
Marquette is among the top 4% of all colleges & universities in the country! I could give a flying fudgsicle what the acceptance rate is.
-
So you are advocating that a University push a stat as an indicator of quality even though it isn't an indicator of quality? That is pretty much the exact opposite of what higher education should be doing.
No. All I'm saying is it's a mistake for Marquette, or any other institution looking to increase it's national profile within the U.S. higher education landscape, to dismiss acceptance rate completely, say it's totally unimportant, and claim anyone who cares about it is an elitist snob. That's just not helpful. As long as some consumers of higher education think it's important (and I can assure you that rightly or not, almost everyone where I come from and currently live does), they need to evaluate how it influences the perception of the brand. It's not the be all and the end all, but as an avid MU recruiter here in the northeast, parents do look at it. It's one data point of many, that folks take into consideration and for Marquette to completely ignore it is a mistake because I've seen first hand how some parents react to that stat. Several have called me out about it at more than one college fair where I represented MU and I gave the line, it has no bearing on quality, I went to the comm school and am now an executive at a major media company, blah blah blah. For some people, a 75% acceptance rate is just too damn high. Frankly I find it hard to believe that parents of high school seniors in the midwest don't look at it at all. Of course they do! Everyone does so it's ridiculous to chalk the issue up to coastal elitist snobbery. Do people in the northeast and west coast make a bigger deal out of it than Midwesterners or Southerners? Probably sure but students from the coasts are also increasingly considering and attending Marquette.
-
Here's what MU is really interested in. 2,000 Frosh every year with a slow uptick in student quality. What they'd also like is not to have to subsidize quite as many via scholarship with the endowment as it currently stands but that's not practical at the moment.
Then they should be recruiting aggressively at all of the public high schools in the wealthy NYC suburbs in Westchester & Nassau County NY, Fairfield County CT and New Jersey. These places are extremely wealthy and most parents here can afford to pay a significantly higher percentage of the sticker than average. If that's truly a goal, that's where they should be recruiting in the Northeast which they haven't been as best I can tell util the last year or so. I'm not familiar with the west coast so I can't address that but in terms of bang for the buck it probably is the right strategy. California overtook MN a couple of years ago as MU's 3rd biggest draw after IL and WI so that makes sense.
-
Then they should be recruiting aggressively at all of the public high schools in the wealthy NYC suburbs in Westchester & Nassau County NY, Fairfield County CT and New Jersey. These places are extremely wealthy and most parents here can afford to pay a significantly higher percentage of the sticker than average. If that's truly a goal, that's where they should be recruiting in the Northeast which they haven't been as best I can tell util the last year or so. I'm not familiar with the west coast so I can't address that but in terms of bang for the buck it probably is the right strategy. California overtook MN a couple of years ago as MU's 3rd biggest draw after IL and WI so that makes sense.
I know that's a significant part of the strategy of my son's school, Elon University in North Carolina. I see that after NC, states 2-5 are MA, NJ, NY and CT. Their focus on recruiting the NE even prompted them to change athletic conferences a few years ago so that they'd have more exposure in the NE. I don't know how their current stats compare to their stats five years ago, but they seem to be doing pretty well. FWIW, we've been very happy with it.
-
Then they should be recruiting aggressively at all of the public high schools in the wealthy NYC suburbs in Westchester & Nassau County NY, Fairfield County CT and New Jersey. These places are extremely wealthy and most parents here can afford to pay a significantly higher percentage of the sticker than average. If that's truly a goal, that's where they should be recruiting in the Northeast which they haven't been as best I can tell util the last year or so. I'm not familiar with the west coast so I can't address that but in terms of bang for the buck it probably is the right strategy. California overtook MN a couple of years ago as MU's 3rd biggest draw after IL and WI so that makes sense.
I do think that part of the thought process on lacrosse was to raise visibility along those lines. Public schools are an interesting problem. Usually if you can get a handful of kids, word of mouth can take over. My own kids' public HS here in suburban Chicago (home turf, right) had a decent pipeline going while my kids 'talked it up'. I believe that's dried up some now that they have graduated. Of course the legacy connection is always a good start.
-
So how many thousands of applications does Marquette need to generate to get the acceptance rate down to 65%? Mind you, virtually none of these new applications can be accepted, otherwise the acceptance rate won't be affected much. Those that are would have to offset other acceptances. Then you have to consider how likely these students are to enroll. Are you accepting kids that actually want to go school at Marquette? Or do new acceptances go elsewhere while Marquette is turning away recruits that could have enrolled?
After all this, getting the acceptance rate down, hopefully doing it with out hurting enrollment numbers...how many new east coast recruits will apply to Marquette and more importantly how many will ultimately enroll? 5? 10? 30? 100? How much time and money is spent to accomplish this? Is it worth the return on investment? Looks like a lot of time, effort, and money for very little return.
-
So how many thousands of applications does Marquette need to generate to get the acceptance rate down to 65%? Mind you, virtually none of these new applications can be accepted, otherwise the acceptance rate won't be affected much. Those that are would have to offset other acceptances. Then you have to consider how likely these students are to enroll. Are you accepting kids that actually want to go school at Marquette? Or do new acceptances go elsewhere while Marquette is turning away recruits that could have enrolled?
After all this, getting the acceptance rate down, hopefully doing it with out hurting enrollment numbers...how many new east coast recruits will apply to Marquette and more importantly how many will ultimately enroll? 5? 10? 30? 100? How much time and money is spent to accomplish this? Is it worth the return on investment? Looks like a lot of time, effort, and money for very little return.
That's kind of the thought process associated with the new targeted approach.
-
No. All I'm saying is it's a mistake for Marquette, or any other institution looking to increase it's national profile within the U.S. higher education landscape, to dismiss acceptance rate completely, say it's totally unimportant, and claim anyone who cares about it is an elitist snob. That's just not helpful. As long as some consumers of higher education think it's important (and I can assure you that rightly or not, almost everyone where I come from and currently live does), they need to evaluate how it influences the perception of the brand. It's not the be all and the end all, but as an avid MU recruiter here in the northeast, parents do look at it. It's one data point of many, that folks take into consideration and for Marquette to completely ignore it is a mistake because I've seen first hand how some parents react to that stat. Several have called me out about it at more than one college fair where I represented MU and I gave the line, it has no bearing on quality, I went to the comm school and am now an executive at a major media company, blah blah blah. For some people, a 75% acceptance rate is just too damn high. Frankly I find it hard to believe that parents of high school seniors in the midwest don't look at it at all. Of course they do! Everyone does so it's ridiculous to chalk the issue up to coastal elitist snobbery. Do people in the northeast and west coast make a bigger deal out of it than Midwesterners or Southerners? Probably sure but students from the coasts are also increasingly considering and attending Marquette.
It has nothing to do with an east coast, midwest or west coast thing.
Really the fact that people actually ask you about it shows that they really don't know anything about how bad that statistic is. Marquette is right to ignore it. If it costs them some students because they lost a bragging point then...oh well...
-
I know that's a significant part of the strategy of my son's school, Elon University in North Carolina. I see that after NC, states 2-5 are MA, NJ, NY and CT. Their focus on recruiting the NE even prompted them to change athletic conferences a few years ago so that they'd have more exposure in the NE. I don't know how their current stats compare to their stats five years ago, but they seem to be doing pretty well. FWIW, we've been very happy with it.
My wife teaches at a public high school in Connecticut and this has been one of the "trendy schools" lately.
-
I do think that part of the thought process on lacrosse was to raise visibility along those lines. Public schools are an interesting problem. Usually if you can get a handful of kids, word of mouth can take over. My own kids' public HS here in suburban Chicago (home turf, right) had a decent pipeline going while my kids 'talked it up'. I believe that's dried up some now that they have graduated. Of course the legacy connection is always a good start.
Then they should be recruiting aggressively at all of the public high schools in the wealthy NYC suburbs in Westchester & Nassau County NY, Fairfield County CT and New Jersey. These places are extremely wealthy and most parents here can afford to pay a significantly higher percentage of the sticker than average. If that's truly a goal, that's where they should be recruiting in the Northeast which they haven't been as best I can tell util the last year or so. I'm not familiar with the west coast so I can't address that but in terms of bang for the buck it probably is the right strategy. California overtook MN a couple of years ago as MU's 3rd biggest draw after IL and WI so that makes sense.
When the school published the strategic plan for having a Lacrosse program, one of the objectives was to raise visibility of the school in upper income demographics in the Northeast / Mid Atlantic in addition to traditional midwest sources of these type families. Lacrosse has been successful in this regard and the students they have recruited have in essence become walking bill boards for MU in their home communities. In the traditional lacrosse markets of the Northeast the sport is carried with live games on the local cable networks with a lot of promotion as to where student is going to play college ball. MU has gotten big airplay in places like Baltimore, Philly, Long Island, CT, NJ , Westchester. What happens is people in the region who know MU from basketball can also have a point of reference to an actual MU student athlete in their community .
I have spent a fair amount of time working with families and providing them reasons to go to MU and the name recognition of a known person is helpful in closing the deal. The final hurdle I always have to overcome is the acceptance rate. The acceptance rate becomes less of an issuance when they know kids from their area are going to the school.
One of the best marketing tools for MU to close on actual enrollments, is to have legions of kids with rejected applications. The school needs to be seen as selective as to who they admit. I see their current strategy of lowering grades and test numbers, going for diversity etc as a downward spiral. (FYI I am black as the ace of spades and don't believe in the diversity thing). Worse students admitted means lousy students graduating means less of a reputation in the market for our final product. Less success means less future rich alumni giving back money.
-
One of the best marketing tools for MU to close on actual enrollments, is to have legions of kids with rejected applications. The school needs to be seen as selective as to who they admit. I see their current strategy of lowering grades and test numbers, going for diversity etc as a downward spiral. (FYI I am black as the ace of spades and don't believe in the diversity thing). Worse students admitted means lousy students graduating means less of a reputation in the market for our final product. Less success means less future rich alumni giving back money.
Exactly where are you seeing that they are lowering grades and test numbers?
-
When the school published the strategic plan for having a Lacrosse program, one of the objectives was to raise visibility of the school in upper income demographics in the Northeast / Mid Atlantic in addition to traditional midwest sources of these type families. Lacrosse has been successful in this regard and the students they have recruited have in essence become walking bill boards for MU in their home communities. In the traditional lacrosse markets of the Northeast the sport is carried with live games on the local cable networks with a lot of promotion as to where student is going to play college ball. MU has gotten big airplay in places like Baltimore, Philly, Long Island, CT, NJ , Westchester. What happens is people in the region who know MU from basketball can also have a point of reference to an actual MU student athlete in their community .
I have spent a fair amount of time working with families and providing them reasons to go to MU and the name recognition of a known person is helpful in closing the deal. The final hurdle I always have to overcome is the acceptance rate. The acceptance rate becomes less of an issuance when they know kids from their area are going to the school.
One of the best marketing tools for MU to close on actual enrollments, is to have legions of kids with rejected applications. The school needs to be seen as selective as to who they admit. I see their current strategy of lowering grades and test numbers, going for diversity etc as a downward spiral. (FYI I am black as the ace of spades and don't believe in the diversity thing). Worse students admitted means lousy students graduating means less of a reputation in the market for our final product. Less success means less future rich alumni giving back money.
Well, you've said a lot in that. Here's some facts. 1) Marquette's Freshman class has actually improved modestly in the last few years both in terms of quality and size. And compared to the 1990s, it's night and day. (Sorry you guys with a '93 degree. If you could read back then you got in!) 2) Marquette has re-emphasized its Jesuit mission in an attempt to lure more students of color and first generation to college. They've publicly stated that. I don't have the numbers in front of me but this year's entering class has made real progress on that stated objective and the university is thrilled.
Now let me add. There's zero desire to have the class academic profile deteriorate and there's no evidence that it's happening. Lacrosse is another nice 'front porch' touch point that hopefully stirs interest in the northeast so that's great. But I can assure you that Marquette as a matter of mission prefers enrolling that Hispanic kid from Cristo Rey to just about anyone on the candidate list. Now they won't compromise class quality to achieve that. But they are emphasizing that in their outreach. And in light of the fact that Marquette is in Milwaukee where the minority population is growing but where the minority middle class still economically lags behind, I applaud the effort.
-
Exactly where are you seeing that they are lowering grades and test numbers?
Well, you've said a lot in that. Here's some facts. 1) Marquette's Freshman class has actually improved modestly in the last few years both in terms of quality and size. And compared to the 1990s, it's night and day. (Sorry you guys with a '93 degree. If you could read back then you got in!) 2) Marquette has re-emphasized its Jesuit mission in an attempt to lure more students of color and first generation to college. They've publicly stated that. I don't have the numbers in front of me but this year's entering class has made real progress on that stated objective and the university is thrilled.
Now let me add. There's zero desire to have the class academic profile deteriorate and there's no evidence that it's happening. Lacrosse is another nice 'front porch' touch point that hopefully stirs interest in the northeast so that's great. But I can assure you that Marquette as a matter of mission prefers enrolling that Hispanic kid from Cristo Rey to just about anyone on the candidate list. Now they won't compromise class quality to achieve that. But they are emphasizing that in their outreach. And in light of the fact that Marquette is in Milwaukee where the minority population is growing but where the minority middle class still economically lags behind, I applaud the effort.
A few comments.
1. I know the two of you have worked your tails off for the school and respect that and your opinions on these matters. Actually, your opinions have more weight than mine, since you have participated real time and I am more of an ad hoc street recruiter of sorts.
2. That said, what I meant by lowering the standards was in reference to an article from a prior thread that one of you posted. whereby MU lets in weaker kids based on diversity quota.
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/05/08/how-marquette-becoming-more-diverse
I am simply not a fan of the push for diversity for diversity sake. In this article, which describes lower standards for Latinos, and a push to recruit students from poor backgrounds, and community colleges. I think once MU goes down down that path, it will corrupt the meat and potatoes of the school ,which is the upper middle class white suburban kids who pack the vast majority of the 2000 seats each year. Seriously, why would someone pay a fortune to send their kid to a school full of kids who come from a lousy background ? When Mommy and Daddy come up with the suburban kids for a campus visit, they can get over the whole neighborhood issue we have by convincing themselves that they are still among like background kids. So these parents take great comfort in seeing the North Shore Chicago, East Grand Rapids crowd etc That is how I close the deal with a lot of the Northeast parents. I tell them, Mr and Mrs X don't worry about the bad neighborhood, there are plenty of people that look like you in the school. I will tell you that It is a big comfort to them to hear this. You have to understand people are willing to be liberal minded in their outlook but not when it comes to Johnny and Susies perceived college safety. They equate safety to more people that look the same way. Sorry but that is the reality. I have had enough people walk in the opposite direction when they see me coming to know that is the case. The strategy being espoused by the current management team has huge risks for the school as it makes the school LESS ATTRACTIVE TO THE CORE of its student body; the people who pay full freight. It is a high risk low reward strategy.
3. I want to see the GREAT kids from a lousy background for MU. That is a totally different thing than the average kids we are settling for. Herein is another reason the ratings matter. The GOOD kids from the BAD environment go straight to the highest rated school they can find. Trust me I know how the Ghetto kids operate (having been one myself many years ago) and we go for the BRAND first. Brands that have strength are worth a lot. I was in a lousy area of Philly recently, and wearing some MU gear, when some older people my age came up to me and mentioned how back in the day, the name Marquette meant a lot to the street basketball kids there because of our whole brand from Al and the uniforms and team. We need to build that kind of academic brand identity as an aspiration school.
So by my way of thinking the best way for MU to get the brand up is to recruit better quality kids from the respected public high schools and selected prep schools. MU would be well served if every year a a kid or two from places for example like Ridgefield, Staples, New Canaan, Darien, Greenwich, Scarsdale , Horace Greeley , Rye, Garden City , Great Neck , Radnor, Lower Merion, Any of the New England or Maryland Prep Schools etc. The side benefit is the more of those you get , the more chance you have of landing a better kid from the better catholic schools that are traditional MU students , which helps get you to the magic 2000 number of students each year.
Then when you get the brand up, MU can more readily compete for the QUALIFIED diversity students. The ones that people actually want in their schools. The kind of kids that are getting full ride scholarships. My attitude is go for excellence and don't settle for second best when first is available. You want the first thing to come to peoples mind when the name Marquette is mentioned academically is that is very high quality school with high quality kids.
I would like to see the grades and Test scores moved up significantly, The best way to do that is not to let in a bunch of mediocre kids based on simply based on the fact that they are disadvantaged kids of color. Lets get the best kids available as the priority. There are plenty of double directional schools that are designed as entry points for the low end academic kids. We don't need to be competing with Chicago State for students. If we are going for the Cristo Rey kids great, but I want the best Cristo Rey kids those that are attractive to the better schools.
One of the things that Wisconsin did many years ago was up their standards for admission . They used to take the top 50 percent of the high school class in Wisconsin and then kids would flunk out. They got wise and started pushing the lower kids to the off brand schools in the system like Whitewater and by doing that upped their game. This really got the ball rolling for their school and now people all over the country are trying to get in there.
-
It has nothing to do with an east coast, midwest or west coast thing.
Really the fact that people actually ask you about it shows that they really don't know anything about how bad that statistic is. Marquette is right to ignore it. If it costs them some students because they lost a bragging point then...oh well...
Except that many of these potential students come from very wealthy families with annual HHI well in excess of $500K a year! If Glow's statement about MU not wanting to have to subsidize as many students via scholarship with the endowment as it currently stands is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, then like it or not, the administration needs start catering more to students/parents who feel this way and adjust their strategy accordingly. I understand that these folks by and large have not been Marquette's primary recruiting constituency, but they need to pay more attention to these people. Just because parents make a ton of dough doesn't mean their kids can get into top 50 schools so a place like Marquette can be a great fit for many of these students if only the university actually was willing to do what's necessary to appeal to them. From my vantage point they've been asleep at the wheel in this region. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. My high school sends about 5 students a year to Madison and they have every year since I graduated in the late 80's. The last person to go to MU from my high school was me. Did I mention I graduated high school in the late 80s?
-
Except that many of these potential students come from very wealthy families with annual HHI well in excess of $500K a year! If Glow's statement about MU not wanting to have to subsidize as many students via scholarship with the endowment as it currently stands is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, then like it or not, the administration needs start catering more to students/parents who feel this way and adjust their strategy accordingly. I understand that these folks by and large have not been Marquette's primary recruiting constituency, but they need to pay more attention to these people. Just because parents make a ton of dough doesn't mean their kids can get into top 50 schools so a place like Marquette can be a great fit for many of these students if only the university actually was willing to do what's necessary to appeal to them. From my vantage point they've been asleep at the wheel in this region. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. My high school sends about 5 students a year to Madison and they have every year since I graduated in the late 80's. The last person to go to MU from my high school was me. Did I mention I graduated high school in the late 80s?
It IS important. But it's not as important as the stated and practiced objective to increase minority and first in family to college enrollment. Marquette has discussed its role in a working class middle class city publicly. I personally think this is one thing that Mike might see as somewhat more important than Fr. Wild. Mike views our ties to the community as a very high priority.
Look, Marquette is culturally quite different today than the school that I graduated from in 1983. Many think that cultural change is not in keeping with the mission. What you have recommended would certainly further than change. I don't think the current administration wants to go there.
Again, these are just my observations. I've not sat down in Mike's office for an hour to discuss.
-
Except that many of these potential students come from very wealthy families with annual HHI well in excess of $500K a year! If Glow's statement about MU not wanting to have to subsidize as many students via scholarship with the endowment as it currently stands is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, then like it or not, the administration needs start catering more to students/parents who feel this way and adjust their strategy accordingly. I understand that these folks by and large have not been Marquette's primary recruiting constituency, but they need to pay more attention to these people. Just because parents make a ton of dough doesn't mean their kids can get into top 50 schools so a place like Marquette can be a great fit for many of these students if only the university actually was willing to do what's necessary to appeal to them. From my vantage point they've been asleep at the wheel in this region. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. My high school sends about 5 students a year to Madison and they have every year since I graduated in the late 80's. The last person to go to MU from my high school was me. Did I mention I graduated high school in the late 80s?
It IS important. But it's not as important as the stated and practiced objective to increase minority and first in family to college enrollment. Marquette has discussed its role in a working class middle class city publicly. I personally think this is one thing that Mike might see as somewhat more important than Fr. Wild. Mike views our ties to the community as a very high priority.
Look, Marquette is culturally quite different today than the school that I graduated from in 1983. Many think that cultural change is not in keeping with the mission. What you have recommended would certainly further than change. I don't think the current administration wants to go there.
Again, these are just my observations. I've not sat down in Mike's office for an hour to discuss.
If Dr. Lovell was willing to get on the road and personally meet the Parents in the top tier schools we are discussing, he could really get some great traction for MU. Wealthy and pseudo Wealthy people love that personal touch from the top brass. In my town I have seen quite a few Patriot League schools do just that. The family wants to get their Non Ivy quality into a perceived good school. XYZ Patriot shows up on their doorstep and next thing you know Mommy and Daddy are sending 6 figure donation. Those kids are usually well adjusted people and do well . Next thing you know over the long haul you have some 7 figure donors emerge. I know this doesn't square with the whole social justice theme. However, my view of charity is you have to take care of yourself first before you can do well by others. Like I said above, lets create go for the top tier disadvantaged kids. To do that costs money because every school in America wants them.
As a former homeless person ,I know it is possible to work your way up by the bootstrap if you are willing to be a hard worker and strive for excellence. I never had a damn handout, nor did I expect one. What I did was consort with the successful and learned from them. Back in the day I worked in the warehouses off Blue Mound unloading trucks ( you could get an extra $20 if you unloaded the bananas) and freight cars, when I was on break I got to know the bosses. Used those connection to work my way through school . Got absolute top grades. Banged on doors until Wall Street let me in and from there I worked 24/7/365 till I made partner and went on from there to Corporate world . Everything MU is doing is the exact opposite of the path I took.
-
If Dr. Lovell was willing to get on the road and personally meet the Parents in the top tier schools we are discussing, he could really get some great traction for MU. Wealthy and pseudo Wealthy people love that personal touch from the top brass. In my town I have seen quite a few Patriot League schools do just that. The family wants to get their Non Ivy quality into a perceived good school. XYZ Patriot shows up on their doorstep and next thing you know Mommy and Daddy are sending 6 figure donation. Those kids are usually well adjusted people and do well . Next thing you know over the long haul you have some 7 figure donors emerge. I know this doesn't square with the whole social justice theme. However, my view of charity is you have to take care of yourself first before you can do well by others. Like I said above, lets create go for the top tier disadvantaged kids. To do that costs money because every school in America wants them.
As a former homeless person ,I know it is possible to work your way up by the bootstrap if you are willing to be a hard worker and strive for excellence. I never had a damn handout, nor did I expect one. What I did was consort with the successful and learned from them. Back in the day I worked in the warehouses off Blue Mound unloading trucks ( you could get an extra $20 if you unloaded the bananas) and freight cars, when I was on break I got to know the bosses. Used those connection to work my way through school . Got absolute top grades. Banged on doors until Wall Street let me in and from there I worked 24/7/365 till I made partner and went on from there to Corporate world . Everything MU is doing is the exact opposite of the path I took.
Um, maybe you're not aware because you're not an alum. Mike spent his entire first year on the road. Every corner of the country. A whole year. It was unprecedented in the history of the university.
-
Um, maybe you're not aware because you're not an alum. Mike spent his entire first year on the road. Every corner of the country. A whole year. It was unprecedented in the history of the university.
I saw Dr. Lovell around a lot. It was a good thing for sure. It bought him some time.
What I am talking about is on a more granular level with live prospects. That is a different level of engagement than what he did. Going into their homes and having meeting with influential parents. There is an art form to doing this.
At some point I am going to sit down with Dr.Lovell and make my case. Bill Scholl completely agrees with me as that is what Notre Dame did and he was at the forefront of raising a lot of money for them.
By the way this is not a strictly Northeast thing. There are plenty of rich people all over the country and I think we can make the sale on the West Coast pretty well also.
-
I saw Dr. Lovell around a lot. It was a good thing for sure. It bought him some time.
What I am talking about is on a more granular level with live prospects. That is a different level of engagement than what he did. Going into their homes and having meeting with influential parents. There is an art form to doing this.
At some point I am going to sit down with Dr.Lovell and make my case. Bill Scholl completely agrees with me as that is what Notre Dame did and he was at the forefront of raising a lot of money for them.
By the way this is not a strictly Northeast thing. There are plenty of rich people all over the country and I think we can make the sale on the West Coast pretty well also.
Perhaps you should take your sage advice and approach your own alma mater with it.
-
As a former homeless person....
I don't think hanging out on Yasgur's farm on an August weekend forty-eight years ago qualifies you as being homeless.
-
So I heard a presentation yesterday from an enrollment management firm that is considered the top of the industry. Some things they said:
1. Students and parents are seeing through the ranking game. Too many services providing too many rankings are decreasing their utility.
2. They are also much more concerned about "outcome based statistics" (job placement rate, graduate school admission rate) than they are about "income based statistics" (exclusivity rate).
3. Everything about student recruitment these days is about efficiency. Every effort is about weighing the marginal costs of the effort versus the marginal revenue. Technology allows schools to be much more efficient than they have been previously.
Considering Marquette's "new" enrollment director has worked with this firm previously, Marquette has obviously adopted the same philosophies. Smart move being on the forefront of student recruitment these days and not simply doing what worked 20 years ago.
-
So I heard a presentation yesterday from an enrollment management firm that is considered the top of the industry. Some things they said:
1. Students and parents are seeing through the ranking game. Too many services providing too many rankings are decreasing their utility.
2. They are also much more concerned about "outcome based statistics" (job placement rate, graduate school admission rate) than they are about "income based statistics" (exclusivity rate).
3. Everything about student recruitment these days is about efficiency. Every effort is about weighing the marginal costs of the effort versus the marginal revenue. Technology allows schools to be much more efficient than they have been previously.
Considering Marquette's "new" enrollment director has worked with this firm previously, Marquette has obviously adopted the same philosophies. Smart move being on the forefront of student recruitment these days and not simply doing what worked 20 years ago.
I can speak specifically to COBA's being ahead of the curve and adopting the mentality of outcome statistics well over a decade ago... look no further than the AIM and Real Estate programs: 100% placement over the past 10 years, most into high-profile, well-paying job no less.
While the "Tier 1's" (and Northeastern) were predominantly focused on gaming the rankings in the late 90's and early 00's, the "Tier 2's" were passively climbing the rankings by focusing on ensuring students had the actual skills and experience to hit the ground running at graduation.
-
So I heard a presentation yesterday from an enrollment management firm that is considered the top of the industry. Some things they said:
1. Students and parents are seeing through the ranking game. Too many services providing too many rankings are decreasing their utility.
2. They are also much more concerned about "outcome based statistics" (job placement rate, graduate school admission rate) than they are about "income based statistics" (exclusivity rate).
3. Everything about student recruitment these days is about efficiency. Every effort is about weighing the marginal costs of the effort versus the marginal revenue. Technology allows schools to be much more efficient than they have been previously.
Considering Marquette's "new" enrollment director has worked with this firm previously, Marquette has obviously adopted the same philosophies. Smart move being on the forefront of student recruitment these days and not simply doing what worked 20 years ago.
This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students. People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.
The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents. We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats.
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.
Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made.
-
This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students. People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.
The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents. We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats.
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.
Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made.
For the love of God, please stop using "we" when you talk about Marquette, especially in the academic sense.
-
I can speak specifically to COBA's being ahead of the curve and adopting the mentality of outcome statistics well over a decade ago... look no further than the AIM and Real Estate programs: 100% placement over the past 10 years, most into high-profile, well-paying job no less.
While the "Tier 1's" (and Northeastern) were predominantly focused on gaming the rankings in the late 90's and early 00's, the "Tier 2's" were passively climbing the rankings by focusing on ensuring students had the actual skills and experience to hit the ground running at graduation.
There is no doubt that the AIM program in particular as well as the Real Estate program have been tremendous successes, and the fact that more MU students are heading out east and getting jobs at top investment banks is proof of that. I work in NYC and have seen that first hand over the last 10 years so that's the good news. What is not good news is that those AIM students that aren't originally from metro NYC (and frankly even those who are) have to fight like dogs just for a chance of getting an interview at a top firm and are still at a tremendous disadvantage over students from more prestigious schools that don't have anything close to the strength of the AIM program because MU's brand is not strong enough out here and the alumni base is miniscule compared to Chicago, for example. If it were not for the tireless efforts of our alumni in the area, these students wouldn't stand a chance of being considered for these opportunities despite the fact that they're every bit as talented as the Ivy and Patriot grads they're competing with.
Most of the helpful alums I'm referring to were extraordinarily bright and went on to earn MBA's from top 10 schools. I know many of these folks personally and most will grudgingly acknowledge that were it not for their blue chip MBA credential, they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting a job like that with only a Bachelors from Marquette 20 years ago, so the fact that some students are fortunate enough to secure these positions today right out of MU undergrad is definitely a step in the right direction.
That said, despite the tremendous success of the AIM program, no one out here that isn't affiliated with Marquette knows of its existence, so the overall strength of an institution's brand image is far more important than the strength of some esoteric academic program. Marquette's US News ranking has not improved in the last 4 years despite the unprecedented success of its AIM and Real Estate programs and despite the fact that Marquette's finance program was ranked 17th nationally as recently as a year or two ago.
The unpleasant truth is that students from places like Williams, Middlebury, Bates, Colgate, etc. will be offered these prestigious jobs over someone from MU 9/10 times so the notion that overall rankings don't matter is nonsense. Sad but true.
-
This is nothing but a rationalization for not being able to compete in the marketplace for students. People who are saying that they are seeing through rankings are not being truthful and use that to justify going to an inferior school to one that they hoped to get into.
The Formula for success is the following:
1. Restrictive Admission Policy. Employers look at schools as vetting agents. We want the best possible students we can get. Eliminate Diversity preferential treatment, no more sub par students bogging down the admissions stats.
2. Pay up for the Best Staff. Better teachers and Better students equal Employers valuing grads.
3. Full Scholarship program for super qualified students. Model after Morehead Cain/ Jefferson Scholars etc.
Bottom line the enrollment director and the current way of thinking are jeopardizing about 40 years of progress that the school has made.
Both Sultan and Jackie make valid points here. Like Jackie, I live in the northeast and while not totally sympatico with Jackie....I think his vision for MU while admirable, is a bit too ambitious and not realistic near term..... his articulation of the northeastern mindset is spot on. My guess is that schools ranked in the US News top 40 probably don't need to hire these enrollment management firms in the first place. At the end of the day it would be nice for MU to be in that position.
-
Both Sultan and Jackie make valid points here. Like Jackie, I live in the northeast and while not totally sympatico with Jackie....I think his vision for MU while admirable, is a bit too ambitious and not realistic near term..... his articulation of the northeastern mindset is spot on. My guess is that schools ranked in the US News top 40 probably don't need to hire these enrollment management firms in the first place. At the end of the day it would be nice for MU to be in that position.
Top 10 maybe. There are private schools in the top 40 that use these firms.
-
Top 10 maybe. There are private schools in the top 40 that use these firms.
Would love to see us make this list of Universities. This is what we need to aspire to.
http://www.worldation.com/stories/29-hardest-colleges-america-get/
-
And eye two aspire ta de-flower Kate Upton, hey?
-
And eye two aspire ta de-flower Kate Upton, hey?
I applaud you for having set the bar high. We need more of that kind of positive attitude.
ps Justin Verlander got their first. But it is the thought that matters.
-
Would love to see us make this list of Universities. This is what we need to aspire to.
http://www.worldation.com/stories/29-hardest-colleges-america-get/
No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.
Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms.
Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body. They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.
And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods. He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023. The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.
-
No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.
Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms.
Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body. They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.
And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods. He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023. The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.
The former is an admirable goal,the latter should be tied to the former. We don't want just any diversity. I came from that world, and escaped it through hard work and had nothing handed to me. That is why I am telling you it is a huge mistake to go down the path of becoming Chicago State North. Very misguided notion by a bunch of well meaning but guilt stricken white people.
Here is a report from another esteemed institution that is taking my approach, and getting the results MU seeks to achieve, which are increased enrollment and diversity. Exclusivity is the better way.
http://uncnews.unc.edu/2017/08/18/carolina-welcomes-5158-new-undergraduate-students-campus/
-
The former is an admirable goal,the latter should be tied to the former. We don't want just any diversity. I came from that world, and escaped it through hard work and had nothing handed to me. That is why I am telling you it is a huge mistake to go down the path of becoming Chicago State North. Very misguided notion by a bunch of well meaning but guilt stricken white people.
Here is a report from another esteemed institution that is taking my approach, and getting the results MU seeks to achieve, which are increased enrollment and diversity. Exclusivity is the better way.
http://uncnews.unc.edu/2017/08/18/carolina-welcomes-5158-new-undergraduate-students-campus/
It has absolutely nothing to do with the supposed 'white guilt' you mention. The ONLY growth segment over the next 10-15 years is Hispanic. To succeed, a Midwest university needs to find a way to tap in.
One of the thing I appreciate about the new Admissions Dean is that he's all about analytics. I mean serious analytics. There's no guesswork anymore. No outdated notions. It's practically regression analysis. And this is pretty dramatically reshaping MU's admissions game plan.
The initial track record is impressive and he's earned the BOT's ear. Reminds me of David Stearns if that makes sense. Color me impressed.
-
It has absolutely nothing to do with the supposed 'white guilt' you mention. The ONLY growth segment over the next 10-15 years is Hispanic. To succeed, a Midwest university needs to find a way to tap in.
One of the thing I appreciate about the new Admissions Dean is that he's all about analytics. I mean serious analytics. There's no guesswork anymore. No outdated notions. It's practically regression analysis. And this is pretty dramatically reshaping MU's admissions game plan.
The initial track record is impressive and he's earned the BOT's ear. Reminds me of David Stearns if that makes sense. Color me impressed.
The analysis the admission director is doing is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out.
I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here. They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students. If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.
I just recruited two full paying kids this year, one chose us over UW and the other over Illinois. One from a traditional Chicago suburban school and another from a top NYC Catholic. I worked hard to make those sales. The MU admissions officer is LAZY and does not want to COMPETE for real prospects. For example ,I am working hard on recruiting a family I know, from the northern Illinois suburbs whose son has multiple offers from all over and is a good student. The mother, an african american computer scientist, and son are keen on our engineering. It takes time and effort to close on someone like this who has real choices.
You have to earn your way in life. Going after the bottom feeders is one of the worst strategies ever. All it will do is alienate your good paying customers from good families who are necessary to keep the school going.
If MU is truly hell bent for leather on diversity, then it needs to up its elite status. The better quality diversity kids have lots and lots of choices at schools much more highly rated than MU and don't have to pay.Again I will say the new strategy will be absolutely successful at one thing, which is creating Chicago State North.
-
The analysis the admission director is doing is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out.
I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here. They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students. If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.
I just recruited two full paying kids this year, one chose us over UW and the other over Illinois. One from a traditional Chicago suburban school and another from a top NYC Catholic. I worked hard to make those sales. The MU admissions officer is LAZY and does not want to COMPETE for real prospects. For example ,I am working hard on recruiting a family I know, from the northern Illinois suburbs whose son has multiple offers from all over and is a good student. The mother, an african american computer scientist, and son are keen on our engineering. It takes time and effort to close on someone like this who has real choices.
You have to earn your way in life. Going after the bottom feeders is one of the worst strategies ever. All it will do is alienate your good paying customers from good families who are necessary to keep the school going.
If MU is truly hell bent for leather on diversity, then it needs to up its elite status. The better quality diversity kids have lots and lots of choices at schools much more highly rated than MU and don't have to pay.Again I will say the new strategy will be absolutely successful at one thing, which is creating Chicago State North.
You know what Moon? You know nothing about our university and aren't a stakeholder so I'll end this conversation by saying goodbye.
-
The analysis the admission director is doing is all wrong.Garbage In and Garbage Out.
I would go where the full paying students are ,not the street level Hispanics who will just drain you dry on scholarship dollars and require all sorts of support when they get here. They have no family connections for jobs when they graduate and thus add nothing in that regard for themselves or for future students. If we are going to recruit Hispanics lets try and get very rich families who can't get all their kids into the Ivy League. That is a whole different kettle of fish than what the admissions office is doing now. Go where the money is, not where you have to spend money.
This is certainly one of the most racist, appalling bits of prose ever posted on this site. If my non-Christian morals are disgusted, I can only imagine what a Jesuit would think after reading this filth.
-
This is certainly one of the most racist, appalling bits of prose ever posted on this site. If my non-Christian morals are disgusted, I can only imagine what a Jesuit would think after reading this filth.
I came from a very disadvantaged upbringing. People walked the other way when they saw me coming just because of the color of my skin. Don't talk to me about racist until you walked in my shoes.
I am just telling the truth and if it hurts your sensibility so be it.
-
(https://media.giphy.com/media/H99r2HtnYs492/giphy.gif)
DO IT!!!!!
-
You know what Moon? You know nothing about our university and aren't a stakeholder so I'll end this conversation by saying goodbye.
You spend a lot of time and effort on the University and I have acknowledged previously that is to be respected. I do things in my own way and get good results that have value today and in the future for the University . I am a doer not a voyeur.
-
MUFINY, I really hope you are a person of color. Because even if with all the crap you've made up to try and win internet arguments, pretending to be a race you're not would be a new low.
Regardless of your race, you have zero understanding of the mission of Jesuit education.
-
I came from a very disadvantaged upbringing. People walked the other way when they saw me coming just because of the color of my skin. Don't talk to me about racist until you walked in my shoes.
I am just telling the truth and if it hurts your sensibility so be it.
So what...people from disadvantaged upbringings can't be racist? You're the one that put the spade on the table. I'm just calling it what it is. You're the one that equated "street level Hispanics" to garbage.
-
MUFINY, I really hope you are a person of color. Because even if with all the crap you've made up to try and win internet arguments, pretending to be a race you're not would be a new low.
Regardless of your race, you have zero understanding of the mission of Jesuit education.
I am from the Herman Cain camp. Not all of us colored folk want handouts or believe in the victim routine. We are all not bleeding heart liberals. Some of us even watch Fox News.
I worked my )7*%$ off lumping banana and meat loads for the truckers at the warehouses off Blue Mound back in the day. One of the supervisors saw my work ethic on the unloading dock and I got a unionized job in the warehouse. Since I was the low man on the totem pole( back in those non pc days that is what it was called) I was put in the freezer. In order not to freeze my &#$@^ off I set the all time record for freezer picking . Unfortunately, the union foreman ( a former MU football player who blew his knee out and was now driving a forklift) said , son that is not the way we do things here. You are to work for 15 minutes and take the rest of the hour off, as we have in the contract. That wised me up to the union and my goal was to be part of management. So I kept lumpin loads for extra money and saved my union earnings and that is how I paid for school. No freakin minority scholarship existed in those days.
Got good grades and ended up on Wall Street. Pure competition every day where no one cared what I looked like. I eventually became a CEO on main street. I did it all without affirmative action or people lowering standards for me and I am proud of that. In fact on Wall Street I sat on the recruiting committees of a Bulge Bracket firm and a Major Bracket firm . I was the champion of hiring people of all colors , creeds and sexual orientation; however, my firmly held position was to only hire the best. Not just hire tokens. We have that same ideology in my company today. We only want winners not hangers on.
-
MUFINY, are you an alum of Marquette? If you are, how would you say your Marquette experience helped you get into the position you are today?
-
moon man - I'm not going to ban you (this time) for having wildly flawed opinions. However, I will ask that you refrain from posting those racist opinions on the forum, as they make the rest of us (and the site) look bad. Further, your opinions can get MUScoop tagged as a "hate speech" site - and I'm not going to let bad eggs ruin this place.. So...cut it out.
-
45% of college aged students at the end of this horizon will be Hispanic. A very Catholic lot. MU seems to have the right strategy.
-
No "we" do not. And the PTB at Marquette are not interested in making that kind of list.
Glow and I listened to an hour-long presentation last weekend by the Dean of Admissions, and he did not once mention the word "exclusivity" or any of its synonyms.
Their goal is that by 2025, they want to grow the freshman class to 2200 students (from last year's 2000), while at the same time, increasing the quality of the average academic profile of enrolled students and increasing the diversity of the student body. They are currently ahead of schedule in meeting all goals.
And sorry, East Coasters, it sounds like they are not focusing on getting more applicants from your neck of the woods. He put up a map of the U.S. that showed, by state, the projected change in the number of high school graduates from now until 2023. The Midwest and Northeast are shrinking, and the South and West are growing. They are going to focus on where the largest number of potential students are.
Hmm... I just invested 100K in a Vanguard 529 for my 6 year old grand daughter. At least now I know she has one mark against her if she applied to MU in 2029.
-
45% of college aged students at the end of this horizon will be Hispanic. A very Catholic lot. MU seems to have the right strategy.
Yep.
-
Yeah, I had not mentally made the Hispanic/Catholic link and it was not specifically mentioned in our briefing but it makes absolute sense.
-
I am from the Herman Cain camp. Not all of us colored folk want handouts or believe in the victim routine. We are all not bleeding heart liberals. Some of us even watch Fox News.
I worked my )7*%$ off lumping banana and meat loads for the truckers at the warehouses off Blue Mound back in the day. One of the supervisors saw my work ethic on the unloading dock and I got a unionized job in the warehouse. Since I was the low man on the totem pole( back in those non pc days that is what it was called) I was put in the freezer. In order not to freeze my &#$@^ off I set the all time record for freezer picking . Unfortunately, the union foreman ( a former MU football player who blew his knee out and was now driving a forklift) said , son that is not the way we do things here. You are to work for 15 minutes and take the rest of the hour off, as we have in the contract. That wised me up to the union and my goal was to be part of management. So I kept lumpin loads for extra money and saved my union earnings and that is how I paid for school. No freakin minority scholarship existed in those days.
Got good grades and ended up on Wall Street. Pure competition every day where no one cared what I looked like. I eventually became a CEO on main street. I did it all without affirmative action or people lowering standards for me and I am proud of that. In fact on Wall Street I sat on the recruiting committees of a Bulge Bracket firm and a Major Bracket firm . I was the champion of hiring people of all colors , creeds and sexual orientation; however, my firmly held position was to only hire the best. Not just hire tokens. We have that same ideology in my company today. We only want winners not hangers on.
So you are a non traditional poster, a'aaianna? ;)
Herman is a great guy. Met him before, and knew many people who knew him well during his Pilsbury days...he was highly thought of.
-
So you are a non traditional poster, a'aaianna? ;)
Herman is a great guy. Met him before, and knew many people who knew him well during his Pilsbury days...he was highly thought of.
Did he snicker when you poked his belly? I think that should be a requirement for anyone who works there.
-
Did he snicker when you poked his belly? I think that should be a requirement for anyone who works there.
Ha. Most of the younger generation on this thread won't get the joke.
-
Ha. Most of the younger generation on this thread won't get the joke.
The Pillsbury dough boy ain't that old
-
Anyone else notice that when MUFINY is directly asked if he attended Marquette, he ignores it and changes his user name?
-
Anyone else notice that when MUFINY is directly asked if he attended Marquette, he ignores it and changes his user name?
We know he's a wanna be domer. Poor guy.
-
Anyone else notice that when MUFINY is directly asked if he attended Marquette, he ignores it and changes his user name?
I thought he was trying to avoid the banhammer after Rocky's racism warning, as though the mods would never figure it out.
-
Anyone else notice that when MUFINY is directly asked if he attended Marquette, he ignores it and changes his user name?
He can't admit to being an alumni because than his story about being a black CEO falls apart. I asked around and as far anyone knows Marquette has never had an alumni of color who was a CEO, at least not for any company than anyone would have heard of. By not answering he can still pose as an alumni (which I think he is) but still claim to be a black CEO.
-
He can't admit to being an alumni because than his story about being a black CEO falls apart. I asked around and as far anyone knows Marquette has never had an alumni of color who was a CEO, at least not for any company than anyone would have heard of. By not answering he can still pose as an alumni (which I think he is) but still claim to be a black CEO.
I think the opposite. I'm 99.99999999% sure he is not an alum. He has never stated where he is an alum with the purpose of remaining an imposter alum. The rest of his story may be true or it might be a total fabrication. That I don't know. But I am near certain that he is not an alum.
-
He can't admit to being an alumni because than his story about being a black CEO falls apart. I asked around and as far anyone knows Marquette has never had an alumni of color who was a CEO, at least not for any company than anyone would have heard of. By not answering he can still pose as an alumni (which I think he is) but still claim to be a black CEO.
He could certainly be a CEO. Just like my neighbor is the CEO of her independent Mary Kay consulting business.
-
He could certainly be a CEO. Just like my neighbor is the CEO of her independent Mary Kay consulting business.
Right, he said he was "a CEO on Main Street"...so he could be the CEO of a profitable multi-employee dog walking business for all we know.
-
For some reason I've always been under the impression that he went to Marquette High School (and no idea where he went to college).