MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on May 31, 2017, 12:09:06 PM
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Will this law actually pass in Illinois?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/05/29/illinois_039privilege_tax039_idea_forgets_citizens039_right_to_leave_411507.html
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Will this law actually pass in Illinois?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/05/29/illinois_039privilege_tax039_idea_forgets_citizens039_right_to_leave_411507.html
It's Illinois. Our legislature has passed things far more stupid than this.
By the way, any of y'all want to buy my house?
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Hmm...this thread seems to violate the no politics rule.
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Hmm...this thread seems to violate the no politics rule.
It's actually a real estate thread. Gonna buy up all the good real estate in Kenosha
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(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/105/122/aa6.gif)
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It's actually a real estate thread. Gonna buy up all the good real estate in Kenosha
The FIBs have already done that.
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Remarkably, it's possible to discuss tax policy without calling people libtards or heartless conservatives.
Anyone feel lucky?
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Remarkably, it's possible to discuss tax policy without calling people libtards or heartless conservatives.
Anyone feel lucky?
(https://media.tenor.com/images/70584a2d0ec5daa27204f1967878f1c5/tenor.gif)
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Will this law actually pass in Illinois?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/05/29/illinois_039privilege_tax039_idea_forgets_citizens039_right_to_leave_411507.html
1. It's not a tax on investors, it's a tax on fund manager fees.
2. It's not going anywhere. Rauner would never sign it, even in the unlikely event it passes the House.
3. Even if it somehow is enacted - and it won't be - the legislation itself recognizes that it likely won't survive a legal challenge.
4. Welcome to Illinois, where politicians on both sides of the aisle introduce legislation not because it makes sense or helps the state, but to make the other side - or even the other chamber - look bad.
5. Better this, IMO, than in a state where lawmakers think it's a good idea for untrained and unpermitted people to carry around hidden firearms.
This doesn't feel like a real estate thread.
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Remarkably, it's possible to discuss tax policy without calling people libtards or heartless conservatives.
Anyone feel lucky?
I'd submit that it's "possible" to discuss all politics without doing so. However, time and time again posters on this board have demonstrated a complete inability to stifle such urges. Accordingly, you have banned political discussion on the 'Scoop. I'm curious why you're inclined to make an exception here.
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I'd submit that it's "possible" to discuss all politics without doing so. However, time and time again posters on this board have demonstrated a complete inability to stifle such urges. Accordingly, you have banned political discussion on the 'Scoop. I'm curious why you're inclined to make an exception here.
If I could take a guess it's because, contrary to prior evidence, Hilltopper is still optimistic that there is humanity left in this board.
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I'm not taking any sides here in the political area, but this past month is the first time I've actually seriously considered moving our family out of Illinois. Enough was enough a long time ago, and I don't understand (common sense wise) how a state can continue to operate in this manner, and then come up with suggested fixes that continue to punish the people who stay in the state, rather than provide fixes that spur people and businesses to want to move here.
I don't care about red/blue, it's an all of Illinois lawmaker issue.
I know this thread will get locked soon, but Illinois is the Jay Cutler of states.
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This is a classic example of why I have a huge issue with governments and how they work. The stated policy is to make sure hedge fund managers pay their fair share and prevent them from using a loophole in the law....by making a new law on top of the ones that are already flawed.
I have opinion's on the fair share discussion that are not appropriate discussions for the Superbar, however for the methodology discussion let's accept that as a legitimate objective. Why is the modus operandi to create more laws to achieve an outcome as opposed to fixing the original law? Why is the answer to bad bureaucracy more bureaucracy?
Further more, is it a reasonable position for a government policy to pick winners and losers, regardless of who those winners and losers may be?
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I'm not taking any sides here in the political area, but this past month is the first time I've actually seriously considered moving our family out of Illinois. Enough was enough a long time ago, and I don't understand (common sense wise) how a state can continue to operate in this manner, and then come up with suggested fixes that continue to punish the people who stay in the state, rather than provide fixes that spur people and businesses to want to move here.
I don't care about red/blue, it's an all of Illinois lawmaker issue.
I know this thread will get locked soon, but Illinois is the Jay Cutler of states.
Just goes to show you that some lab experiments in the Laboratories of Democracy can show you what NOT to do.
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Further more, is it a reasonable position for a government policy to pick winners and losers, regardless of who those winners and losers may be?
Doesn't government do this all the time? Isn't that among the purposes of government?
A pro-environment policy makes winners out of conservationists and clean energy companies, and losers out of the fossil fuel industry.
A pro-voucher policy makes winners out of private and charter schools and losers out of public schools.
A policy that's "tough" on drugs makes winners out of prisons and losers out of addicts and rehab centers.
Government has always picked winners and losers.
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I'm not taking any sides here in the political area, but this past month is the first time I've actually seriously considered moving our family out of Illinois. Enough was enough a long time ago, and I don't understand (common sense wise) how a state can continue to operate in this manner, and then come up with suggested fixes that continue to punish the people who stay in the state, rather than provide fixes that spur people and businesses to want to move here.
I don't care about red/blue, it's an all of Illinois lawmaker issue.
I know this thread will get locked soon, but Illinois is the Jay Cutler of states.
I don't disagree with much of what you say here, but I can't stress enough that this is not serious legislation. It's legislation that was passed with little expectation of it going anywhere, by a state senate that simply wants to cast blame for Illinois' two years without a budget on Madigan and Rauner. They're passing something so they can go back to their constituents and say "Look, we tried, but Rauner and the House won't work with us."
The fact that this is occurring is in itself a massive indictment of Illinois' toxic political environment right now, one that's not likely to change until Rauner is knocked out of office in 2018. (Note: I don't say that to cast all the blame on Rauner ... there's blame enough for all. But both he and Madigan are too dug in at this point and compromise between them seems unlikely).
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I don't disagree with much of what you say here, but I can't stress enough that this is not serious legislation. It's legislation that was passed with little expectation of it going anywhere, by a state senate that simply wants to cast blame for Illinois' two years without a budget on Madigan and Rauner. They're passing something so they can back back to their constituents and say "Look, we tried, but Rauner and the House won't work with us."
The fact that this is occurring is in itself a massive indictment of Illinois' toxic political environment right now, one that's not likely to change until Rauner is knocked out of office in 2018. (Note: I don't say that to cast all the blame on Rauner ... there's blame enough for all. But both he and Madigan are two dug in at this point and compromise between them seems unlikely).
I took it off the rails (in regards to the original subject), as I meant in general, not specific to this particular legislation. I'm overall fatigued with everything...corruption, property taxes, budget stalemate, income taxes, cronyism. I know it's all been going on for a while, and what you're saying is exactly right, nothing is even on the realm of changing for at least another year and a half, no one is going to give in on either side, everyone is stubborn to the point where nothing continues to get accomplished to move forward.
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I took it off the rails (in regards to the original subject), as I meant in general, not specific to this particular legislation. I'm overall fatigued with everything...corruption, property taxes, budget stalemate, income taxes, cronyism. I know it's all been going on for a while, and what you're saying is exactly right, nothing is even on the realm of changing for at least another year and a half, no one is going to give in on either side, everyone is stubborn to the point where nothing continues to get accomplished to move forward.
Totally agree. Our neighbors to the north are looking better and better. Not Canada, but Wisconsin. I feel that before long I will be calling anyone driving faster than 65 a stupid FIB.
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I don't disagree with much of what you say here, but I can't stress enough that this is not serious legislation. It's legislation that was passed with little expectation of it going anywhere, by a state senate that simply wants to cast blame for Illinois' two years without a budget on Madigan and Rauner. They're passing something so they can go back to their constituents and say "Look, we tried, but Rauner and the House won't work with us."
The fact that this is occurring is in itself a massive indictment of Illinois' toxic political environment right now, one that's not likely to change until Rauner is knocked out of office in 2018. (Note: I don't say that to cast all the blame on Rauner ... there's blame enough for all. But both he and Madigan are too dug in at this point and compromise between them seems unlikely).
You're kind if you think we're getting a lot accomplished up here in Wisconsin. It's better than IL, but only by default.
You've described my view of the "House" of every governing body (state & federal). It's basically one big circle-jerk to show that they're "very active" but blaming someone else for why we can't commit it to law. Progress is not the goal, but the illusion of progress for the sheeple that are their constituents. In fact, it's BETTER that it doesn't become law, because then we can't see all of the catastrophic results!
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Doesn't government do this all the time? Isn't that among the purposes of government?
A pro-environment policy makes winners out of conservationists and clean energy companies, and losers out of the fossil fuel industry.
A pro-voucher policy makes winners out of private and charter schools and losers out of public schools.
A policy that's "tough" on drugs makes winners out of prisons and losers out of addicts and rehab centers.
Government has always picked winners and losers.
Everyone of your examples is government choosing the rules of the game and then establishing it for all based on a policy that is ultimately beneficial(or at least neutral) for all citizens.
Take the environmental example, if the policy is that output from any source of pollution must contain less than X% carcinogens because of the negative impact on public health if not met, then you aren't picking winners and losers because the goal is the greater good, not eliminating an industry. Presumably the coal industry could still exist they would just have to meet that policy. However if you make policy to eliminate the coal industry even though it's continued existence is not a public harm, you are not being punitive. When the policies become punitive because you don't like a group/person/industry etc and not actually about any greater public good, that's when it's picking winners and losers
Let's assume we live in a world where this tax proposal might actually pass, this policy is targeting one group of people because the established policy didn't achieve some outcome. It is targeting one group of people while leaving the loophole in place for other groups, it is punitive. And ultimately, the new rules will allow the target of the policy to avoid it while negatively impacting people that weren't the target.
For the record, this complex bureaucracy around tax policy is exactly why I favor a much simpler, uniform tax policy. The rich will always be able to escape complex tax policy because they have the means and the incentive to do so. If the tax policy were simply all revenue, regardless of source, is taxed at X% then there are no winners and losers as the rules are the same for all.
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I'm not taking any sides here in the political area, but this past month is the first time I've actually seriously considered moving our family out of Illinois. Enough was enough a long time ago, and I don't understand (common sense wise) how a state can continue to operate in this manner, and then come up with suggested fixes that continue to punish the people who stay in the state, rather than provide fixes that spur people and businesses to want to move here.
I don't care about red/blue, it's an all of Illinois lawmaker issue.
I know this thread will get locked soon, but Illinois is the Jay Cutler of states.
Why actually fix something when those in power/monied positions can keep getting theirs and kick the crap-can further down the road? That's what everyone is doing at every turn of government right now.
Of course it's a red/blue issue. It always is to them.
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I'm not taking any sides here in the political area, but this past month is the first time I've actually seriously considered moving our family out of Illinois. Enough was enough a long time ago, and I don't understand (common sense wise) how a state can continue to operate in this manner, and then come up with suggested fixes that continue to punish the people who stay in the state, rather than provide fixes that spur people and businesses to want to move here.
I don't care about red/blue, it's an all of Illinois lawmaker issue.
I know this thread will get locked soon, but Illinois is the Jay Cutler of states.
That's how I thought when I bolted Ill for NC, which at that time was being heralded as the centerpiece of the "progressive New South." Within a year, the ruling party was swept away in the anti-Obama backlash and NC has gone to become a national laughingstock.
So be careful what you ask for!
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Wait, did we just go a day with civil policy discussion?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/huIJ0qfMIWqg8/giphy.gif)
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Wait, did we just go a day with civil policy discussion?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/huIJ0qfMIWqg8/giphy.gif)
(http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/smod-2016-e1473368230994.jpg)
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Will this law actually pass in Illinois?
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/05/29/illinois_039privilege_tax039_idea_forgets_citizens039_right_to_leave_411507.html
Can we stop with the politics?
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I don't disagree with much of what you say here, but I can't stress enough that this is not serious legislation. It's legislation that was passed with little expectation of it going anywhere, by a state senate that simply wants to cast blame for Illinois' two years without a budget on Madigan and Rauner. They're passing something so they can go back to their constituents and say "Look, we tried, but Rauner and the House won't work with us."
This. This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Normally, it's fun to pick apart Pakuni's arguments, but this is probably the most intelligent, rock solid, iron-clad post that you'll see on Scoop all year.
IOW, it's a freakin' publicity stunt, period.
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In general a law like this would be a good thing, but it would have to be done at the national level.
Right now the "carried interest" loophole makes no sense. This proposed law though, makes even less sense. I agree with Pakuni, that this is another example of the all to common modern effort of passing laws that will be DOA for the sole purpose of politicking and publicity.
I liken it to the modern effort of scheduling more and more meetings with no intent on doing anything to demonstrate that you are working a ton of hours and deserve your salary.
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Perhaps the IL governor and legislature needs to be locked in a Super 8 with no air conditioning this summer in Decatur eating only Taco Bell and with only one roll toilet paper available per person until they get their budget differences figured out.
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Can we stop with the politics?
Triggered much?
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Perhaps the IL governor and legislature needs to be locked in a Super 8 with no air conditioning this summer in Decatur eating only Taco Bell and with only one roll toilet paper available per person until they get their budget differences figured out.
Problem with that is most hotels in Illinois aren't accepting reservations from state business because they haven't been paid in months... some haven't been paid in years.
Maybe there's a campground somewhere?
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I'm really impressed with our ability to maintain the level of civil discourse and contain all name calling to the main board.
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I'm really impressed with our ability to maintain the level of civil discourse and contain all name calling to the main board.
Eh, politics is kind of tangential to this conversation. This is more the "all politicians are idiots" conversation, with which most can agree.
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Problem with that is most hotels in Illinois aren't accepting reservations from state business because they haven't been paid in months... some haven't been paid in years.
Maybe there's a campground somewhere?
I'm sure there are some empty cells in some prisons somewhere and they can use the prison cafeteria outside of lunch hours for meetings. That's about all they deserve.
Don't contaminate the campgrounds...good people use those.
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seriously, from a non-partisan standpoint, will moody's downgrade to one click above junk even cause illinois to blink? those in the know, had to have known this was coming, but with moody doing this, doesn't it make illinois economic and budget woes even worse? it's like with companies like moody's, who needs enemies
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-bonds-cut-to-one-step-above-junk-by-s-p-over-stalemate
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seriously, from a non-partisan standpoint, will moody's downgrade to one click above junk even cause illinois to blink? those in the know, had to have known this was coming, but with moody doing this, doesn't it make illinois economic and budget woes even worse? it's like with companies like moody's, who needs enemies
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-bonds-cut-to-one-step-above-junk-by-s-p-over-stalemate
It definitely is not a good sign, rocket.
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seriously, from a non-partisan standpoint, will moody's downgrade to one click above junk even cause illinois to blink? those in the know, had to have known this was coming, but with moody doing this, doesn't it make illinois economic and budget woes even worse? it's like with companies like moody's, who needs enemies
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-01/illinois-bonds-cut-to-one-step-above-junk-by-s-p-over-stalemate
Part of the problem is that much of the nation (states, cities etc.) are in dire situations. Even areas that people think would be good, are terrible. The city of Dallas is on the verge of bankruptcy. Kansas was near bankrupt (may still be). Louisiana is terrible...and on and on. The question is will it have any actual effect.
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I'm sure there are some empty cells in some prisons somewhere and they can use the prison cafeteria outside of lunch hours for meetings. That's about all they deserve.
Don't contaminate the campgrounds...good people use those.
Hmm, I doubt Illinois has a surplus of jail cells.
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Part of the problem is that much of the nation (states, cities etc.) are in dire situations. Even areas that people think would be good, are terrible. The city of Dallas is on the verge of bankruptcy. Kansas was near bankrupt (may still be). Louisiana is terrible...and on and on. The question is will it have any actual effect.
whenever i see a list of top ten or twenty most desirable places to live or fastest growing cities, 40-50% of them are in texas, quite a few in florida, a few in arizona, then greenville south carolina has come up along with idaho. my thinking would be because of good jobs, low taxes and quality of life. the main reason the areas you mention are in dire straits is they are spending more than they are taking in...duh. the squabble then becomes, who gives up what or who needs to pay for what? now that's a tricky one because there are a few areas of this country that have lost a lot of it's "paying customers" due to mainly cost of living.
getting back to the title of this thread-i'm sure the "investors" will either find their loopholes or just leave illinois altogether.
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I typically try to avoid hyperbole and sky is falling predictions, but I do start to wonder if we are seeing a death spiral for the state of Illinois. If you look at the debt owned by Illinois at all levels (city, county, state, etc) it is enormous compared to free cash flow from tax revenue and assets. This is relatively good economic times, unemployment is low and wages are starting to increase so tax revenues should be at near high tide and yet they still can't cover their costs and have to borrow and/or welsh on debts. What happens if we have another economic slow down? Tack on that their tax policy is one that incentivizes those with money (businesses and the rich) to leave and what little tax base they had is on very shaky ground.
Aside from the free babysitting, this is why I keep trying to convince my parents to move to Wisconsin from the Chicago burbs, things just aren't going to get better so get out now while it's manageable.
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I typically try to avoid hyperbole and sky is falling predictions, but I do start to wonder if we are seeing a death spiral for the state of Illinois. If you look at the debt owned by Illinois at all levels (city, county, state, etc) it is enormous compared to free cash flow from tax revenue and assets. This is relatively good economic times, unemployment is low and wages are starting to increase so tax revenues should be at near high tide and yet they still can't cover their costs and have to borrow and/or welsh on debts. What happens if we have another economic slow down? Tack on that their tax policy is one that incentivizes those with money (businesses and the rich) to leave and what little tax base they had is on very shaky ground.
Aside from the free babysitting, this is why I keep trying to convince my parents to move to Wisconsin from the Chicago burbs, things just aren't going to get better so get out now while it's manageable.
Keep up the pressure eng. We're outta here at our earliest reasonable opportunity because we believe your thought process is sound. If I may ask a personal question, are your parents fully retired yet? Cause making a late short term job change might delay that for a little while.
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I typically try to avoid hyperbole and sky is falling predictions, but I do start to wonder if we are seeing a death spiral for the state of Illinois. If you look at the debt owned by Illinois at all levels (city, county, state, etc) it is enormous compared to free cash flow from tax revenue and assets. This is relatively good economic times, unemployment is low and wages are starting to increase so tax revenues should be at near high tide and yet they still can't cover their costs and have to borrow and/or welsh on debts. What happens if we have another economic slow down? Tack on that their tax policy is one that incentivizes those with money (businesses and the rich) to leave and what little tax base they had is on very shaky ground.
Aside from the free babysitting, this is why I keep trying to convince my parents to move to Wisconsin from the Chicago burbs, things just aren't going to get better so get out now while it's manageable.
As a person who is of Welsh decent, I am offended by this post.
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
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Keep up the pressure eng. We're outta here at our earliest reasonable opportunity because we believe your thought process is sound. If I may ask a personal question, are your parents fully retired yet? Cause making a late short term job change might delay that for a little while.
They are both fully retired, but their main concern is the house values because shockingly no one seems to want to move INTO Illinois :) I think I need to sit down with them at some point and walk through the logic of it because I don't why they are holding on. They've been in the house for 20 years, they are going to get more than they owe, so who knows.
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They are both fully retired, but their main concern is the house values because shockingly no one seems to want to move INTO Illinois :) I think I need to sit down with them at some point and walk through the logic of it because I don't why they are holding on. They've been in the house for 20 years, they are going to get more than they owe, so who knows.
Best Illinois R/E market in several years. They are free agents. Now eng.
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
Nothing too big. Other than for a year it was a real challenge to get auto tags renewed until they fully implemented online.
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whenever i see a list of top ten or twenty most desirable places to live or fastest growing cities, 40-50% of them are in texas, quite a few in florida, a few in arizona, then greenville south carolina has come up along with idaho. my thinking would be because of good jobs, low taxes and quality of life. the main reason the areas you mention are in dire straits is they are spending more than they are taking in...duh. the squabble then becomes, who gives up what or who needs to pay for what? now that's a tricky one because there are a few areas of this country that have lost a lot of it's "paying customers" due to mainly cost of living.
getting back to the title of this thread-i'm sure the "investors" will either find their loopholes or just leave illinois altogether.
Those types of places are nice if you have a job and an income. However Texas, South Carolina and Arizona are ranked 38th, 40th and 42nd when it comes to percentage of households with incomes under the poverty rate.
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BTW, Illinois is wholly and completely f*cked no matter who is in charge politically. Death spiral is a good way to describe it.
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mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
Couple of examples from my family (parents live in Illinois and my brother is a teach in Illinois though lives in Wisconsin)
-People don't want to move into the $hit$how that is Illinois and as a consequence home values amongst other things are going down.
-With an improving economy the purchasing power of Illinois residents is going down because more of their revenue is going to taxes at the city, county, and state level.
-My brother, as a teacher in Illinois, has no access to social security for retirement per the way Illinois has built it's public employee retirement plan. However the retirement plan is unfunded to the tune of billions of dollars meaning his retirement is in significant jeopardy.
I recognize these are anecdotal but I don't think they are too far outside the norm.
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As a person who is of Welsh decent, I am offended by this post.
It's not my fault, someone Welsh probably designed the QWERTY keyboard and put the S so close to the C.
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BTW, Illinois is wholly and completely f*cked no matter who is in charge politically. Death spiral is a good way to describe it.
Bingo. It doesn't take a CPA to look at the state's financials and see the death spiral. Hell, I'm pretty sure by the time you get to page 6 there's no more numbers, only various poses of a robed skeleton carrying a scythe.
Fortunately, my wife is cashing out (i.e. taking a refund of) her pension contributions as she no longer works for the state... compared to what she would have received had she worked until retirement, she's literally getting pennies on the dollar (something like 4-5% presuming she lived to 75-80 years old). Unfortunately, among state employees of similar age and service time who will work to retirement, my wife's 4-5% is going to look like a Powerball jackpot relative to what they eventually receive.
It's not my fault, someone Welsh probably designed the QWERTY keyboard and put the S so close to the C.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/kGAbmALdFiQta/giphy.gif)
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Eng, are your folks in Cook County?
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They are both fully retired, but their main concern is the house values because shockingly no one seems to want to move INTO Illinois :) I think I need to sit down with them at some point and walk through the logic of it because I don't why they are holding on. They've been in the house for 20 years, they are going to get more than they owe, so who knows.
One other thing they probably like is that SS benefits are not taxed by Illinois. I learned this the last couple of years when I started filing taxes for my 91-year-old father-in-law. The difference in state taxation of SS benefits in Ill vs. NC is several thousands of dollars a year. I don't know what Wisconsin's laws are re taxing SS benefits. Might not be the reason they are reluctant to leave Ill at all, but it is one benefit for retired folks there.
On a personal level, my son still lives in Chicago and he is getting married to a Highland Park girl next year. She is a teacher. I do worry a little about their financial future.
In any decent to good area of Chicago, at least, I have not seen a reduction in property values. In fact, the opposite is true. Rents also are up, up, up.
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Couple of examples from my family (parents live in Illinois and my brother is a teach in Illinois though lives in Wisconsin)
-People don't want to move into the $hit$how that is Illinois and as a consequence home values amongst other things are going down.
-With an improving economy the purchasing power of Illinois residents is going down because more of their revenue is going to taxes at the city, county, and state level.
-My brother, as a teacher in Illinois, has no access to social security for retirement per the way Illinois has built it's public employee retirement plan. However the retirement plan is unfunded to the tune of billions of dollars meaning his retirement is in significant jeopardy.
I recognize these are anecdotal but I don't think they are too far outside the norm.
Not true. My wife and I just made a 22% return in 2 years on our condo as we saw now is the right time to build a house in the city if you want to try and do it for under a Million. If you're in the right places you're fine but if you're buying in places people don't want to live - well you made a bad investment. Right now in Chicago demand is FAR FAR FAR outweighing supply.
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Eng, are your folks in Cook County?
McHenry
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Not true. My wife and I just made a 22% return in 2 years on our condo as we saw now is the right time to build a house in the city if you want to try and do it for under a Million. If you're in the right places you're fine but if you're buying in places people don't want to live - well you made a bad investment. Right now in Chicago demand is FAR FAR FAR outweighing supply.
Very interesting, my parents keep telling me the market is terrible for them and I was going off of that. I need to do a Zillow search in their area (Crystal Lake-ish) to see what the market for them really looks like.
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Those types of places are nice if you have a job and an income. However Texas, South Carolina and Arizona are ranked 38th, 40th and 42nd when it comes to percentage of households with incomes under the poverty rate.
I heard a quote from Myrtle Beach, that if you move there you better bring your money with you.
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Those types of places are nice if you have a job and an income. However Texas, South Carolina and Arizona are ranked 38th, 40th and 42nd when it comes to percentage of households with incomes under the poverty rate.
chicken and the egg. i would venture to guess that people are moving to florida, texas, north dakota, etc because of the jobs. add in quality of life and taxes and ya got yourself the triple no brainer. i can imagine the poverty rates in arizona are not helped by the large native american populations. texas-high percentage of immigrants, south carolina?
maricopa county grew by over 200 people per day thru 2016. bullseye, az. was the fastest growing city in the u.s. i know surprise, az grew by over 100,000 over the last 10 years.
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Not true. My wife and I just made a 22% return in 2 years on our condo as we saw now is the right time to build a house in the city if you want to try and do it for under a Million. If you're in the right places you're fine but if you're buying in places people don't want to live - well you made a bad investment. Right now in Chicago demand is FAR FAR FAR outweighing supply.
House Hunters on HGTV always seems to have a new episode in Chicago.
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Not true. My wife and I just made a 22% return in 2 years on our condo as we saw now is the right time to build a house in the city if you want to try and do it for under a Million. If you're in the right places you're fine but if you're buying in places people don't want to live - well you made a bad investment. Right now in Chicago demand is FAR FAR FAR outweighing supply.
Very interesting, my parents keep telling me the market is terrible for them and I was going off of that. I need to do a Zillow search in their area (Crystal Lake-ish) to see what the market for them really looks like.
Is this a suburb vs city issue? Not to get all generational, but it would stand to reason that as folks born in the 80s represent a larger proportion of property buyers, those folks are less inclined to purchase single family, .25-.5 acre spots in the suburbs vs finding ways (renos, townhouses, flats, etc) to stay in the city. I don't have anything to bear this out other than narrative experience, but it seems that whereas boomers and older Gen Xers moved out to the burbs before their first baby turned 1, the next wave of property buyers are more inclined to really want to make the city work.
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Is this a suburb vs city issue? Not to get all generational, but it would stand to reason that as folks born in the 80s represent a larger proportion of property buyers, those folks are less inclined to purchase single family, .25-.5 acre spots in the suburbs vs finding ways (renos, townhouses, flats, etc) to stay in the city. I don't have anything to bear this out other than narrative experience, but it seems that whereas boomers and older Gen Xers moved out to the burbs before their first baby turned 1, the next wave of property buyers are more inclined to really want to make the city work.
I think this is absolutely part of it. My parents live in a far suburb of Chicago (70 minutes by Metra to Olglivie) and I'm there are almost no millineals that want to move out there.
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I think this is absolutely part of it. My parents live in a far suburb of Chicago (70 minutes by Metra to Olglivie) and I'm there are almost no millineals that want to move out there.
Certainly not as hot. But at the same time probably didn't hit the bottom so bad 5-6 years ago. I just zillowed our house. Up 5.3% last 12 months. Market listed as Very Hot. We live in DuPage.
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
My wife works for a state college, is in charge of a woman's program. If it wasn't for grant money, she'd have had no program to run these last few years.
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Is this a suburb vs city issue? Not to get all generational, but it would stand to reason that as folks born in the 80s represent a larger proportion of property buyers, those folks are less inclined to purchase single family, .25-.5 acre spots in the suburbs vs finding ways (renos, townhouses, flats, etc) to stay in the city. I don't have anything to bear this out other than narrative experience, but it seems that whereas boomers and older Gen Xers moved out to the burbs before their first baby turned 1, the next wave of property buyers are more inclined to really want to make the city work.
Our condo was in Logan Square and our new house will be in Avondale. So yes, I think it's all about being in the right area and viewing housing as much as an investment as a place for your family.
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My wife works for a state college, is in charge of a woman's program. If it wasn't for grant money, she'd have had no program to run these last few years.
While the federal government is doing its best to obliterate grant funding too.
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Does anyone know where one could find a summary of the total debt owed at all levels of government (city, county, State, Federal).
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Does anyone know where one could find a summary of the total debt owed at all levels of government (city, county, State, Federal).
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ornk050PpBYuDA1wI/giphy.gif)
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It's Illinois. Our legislature has passed things far more stupid than this.
By the way, any of y'all want to buy my house?
You got that one right.
Am now carrying a Florida Drivers License and am registered to vote in the Great State of Florida.
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You got that one right.
Am now carrying a Florida Drivers License and am registered to vote in the Great State of Florida.
one of my law professors at MU maintained Florida citizenship, although I think that had more to do with no Florida state income tax (at least that's what he said).
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one of my law professors at MU maintained Florida citizenship, although I think that had more to do with no Florida state income tax (at least that's what he said).
It would be Florida residency. Which is impossible if he works and spends most of his time in Wisconsin. My guess is your law professor was violating the law and lying on his taxes.
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chicken and the egg. i would venture to guess that people are moving to florida, texas, north dakota, etc because of the jobs. add in quality of life and taxes and ya got yourself the triple no brainer. i can imagine the poverty rates in arizona are not helped by the large native american populations. texas-high percentage of immigrants, south carolina?
maricopa county grew by over 200 people per day thru 2016. bullseye, az. was the fastest growing city in the u.s. i know surprise, az grew by over 100,000 over the last 10 years.
It's a complicated issue. For a long time (at least in TX), all job growth was essentially minimum wage jobs. They have since lobbied to get major corporations to relocate to TX. They do so by: 1) advertising the low wages in the state. 2) Granting them enormous tax credits where they will pay no corporate taxes nor property taxes for 10+ years.
They do then get these new jobs (better paying), but they have to build immense infrastructure to support the new companies and growth. They achieve that by jacking up property taxes 10%+ per year (under the guise of increased home valuations) and massive deficit spending that has bankrupt cities like Dallas.
All the new investment in these growth areas, is great...high paying jobs, nice areas, but because they have to devote all tax dollars to these corporate areas, the communities suffer, making poorer communities much much worse and exacerbating an already terrible poverty rate.
Bottom line is everything comes at a cost. It's up to each and everyone of us to determine if that cost is worth it...and that is where disagreements usually lie.
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McHenry
Holler.
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The hardest part about living in Illinois is there's zero light at the end of the tunnel. Hilltopper asked what the day to day hard parts are, and (there's way more intelligent people on this than myself on this board) one of the biggest issues is the Illinois property tax formula for education. Our school district's property tax percentage was supposed to actually go down this year (a bond was paid off), and instead that portion of my tax bill went up 10%. The value of my home was flat YoY. Not a day to day issue per se, but for the first time in forever, I went to School Board Meet the Candidate meetings, and am trying to be active where I can on a daily basis to inform myself about who I'm electing, and how it hits my pocketbook.
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It would be Florida residency. Which is impossible if he works and spends most of his time in Wisconsin. My guess is your law professor was violating the law and lying on his taxes.
Consider me properly chastened for using the wrong word on a forum.
I can't imagine why he would tell a room full of law students that he was maintaining fraudulent *residency.* What could he possibly have to gain from doing so?
More germane to the discussion at hand though, people do make *residency* decisions based on tax policies. The kinds of people who are sophisticated and wealthy enough to do so are the kinds of people who will be targeted by the "privilege tax."
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
I work with a lot of social service non-profits, and many of them have been feeling the hurt. Lots of reduced services, lots of layoffs. Really awful from our legislators.
Personally, our neighborhood in Chicago (Lakeview) continues to slowly climb with property values. I'm not too concerned for my home value.
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Our condo was in Logan Square and our new house will be in Avondale. So yes, I think it's all about being in the right area and viewing housing as much as an investment as a place for your family.
Good call. Avondale seems poised for a boom in a few years.
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More germane to the discussion at hand though, people do make *residency* decisions based on tax policies. The kinds of people who are sophisticated and wealthy enough to do so are the kinds of people who will be targeted by the "privilege tax."
If they're choosing to live in Florida, for tax reasons or otherwise, they're not as sophisticated as you think.
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Consider me properly chastened for using the wrong word on a forum.
I can't imagine why he would tell a room full of law students that he was maintaining fraudulent *residency.* What could he possibly have to gain from doing so?
More germane to the discussion at hand though, people do make *residency* decisions based on tax policies. The kinds of people who are sophisticated and wealthy enough to do so are the kinds of people who will be targeted by the "privilege tax."
I'm sorry if my correction same off as smug. I shouldn't have made the correction as it is irrelevant what its called and this is indeed a message board. It was rude and unnecessary and I'm sorry.
The reason why people say/do things like this though is that they want to brag, and are arrogant (think they know the laws so they don't apply to them). I've seen it a bunch of times and have seen it bite people in the ass.
The reason it is odd, is that it saves him nothing in the other state taxes. Any income paid, requires that taxes be paid in the state they earned the income (not where their residence is), or where the payee was located. This makes taxes for many partners for big law firms insane, as they are required to file taxes in every state that their firm has an office.
My guess is your professor wanted to brag and sound cool. He likely did not break the actual laws when filing taxes.
But you are exactly right, people of that ilk are the ones being targeted by the "privilege tax" because they do take advantage of the tax system (and often write the tax system).
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Living in Illinois can be affordable in the right place. Working? More iffy.
Take Cook County with everything built out, especially on the edges. Cook County essentially has a Steve Forbes' Consumption (VAT) Tax. Property taxes are very low, especially knowing everything is built and water rights are settled. The Racetrack, Casino and the Cook side of O'Hare builds the surplus. Avoid the sales tax by shopping in the nearby county (and except cars). Property values are stable, schools great, access easy. In the Cook burbs, all the taxing authorities are running surpluses as all the infrastructure is built out.
My advice. Diversify and hide.
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Am now carrying a Florida Drivers License and am registered to vote in the Great State of Florida.
I wish you health and happiness. Just be sure to watch those hanging chads!
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
Two types of people ... those that pay into the system and those that rely on the system.
Most everyone here pays into the system so Illinois problems do not affect them. It will if they jack taxes.
Those that rely on the system are finding it worse and worse.
The solution is bankruptcy. Then all those pensions will only get a percentage of what they are owed (say 75ish percent) and stupid union contracts that waste tons of money will be broken. Then Illinois will be the financially the strongest state in the union.
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Two types of people ... those that pay into the system and those that rely on the system.
Most everyone here pays into the system so Illinois problems do not affect them. It will if they jack taxes.
Those that rely on the system are finding it worse and worse.
The solution is bankruptcy. Then all those pensions will only get a percentage of what they are owed (say 75ish percent) and stupid union contracts that waste tons of money will be broken. Then Illinois will be the financially the strongest state in the union.
Isn't the other solution to raise ("jack") taxes?
Help me out here : https://ballotpedia.org/Tax_policy_in_Illinois
(https://s13.postimg.org/71kkvqp1j/Capture.png)
Admittedly that chart is 2015 .. but wouldn't Illinois' cash flow issues disappear if they raised their tax rates to Wisconsin levels? (Most in WI are at the 6.2% rate.) (WI's sales tax is .75% less, noted.)
Somehow, Wisconsin manages.
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Isn't the other solution to raise ("jack") taxes?
Help me out here : https://ballotpedia.org/Tax_policy_in_Illinois
(https://s13.postimg.org/71kkvqp1j/Capture.png)
Admittedly that chart is 2015 .. but wouldn't Illinois' cash flow issues disappear if they raised their tax rates to Wisconsin levels? (Most in WI are at the 6.2% rate.) (WI's sales tax is .75% less, noted.)
Somehow, Wisconsin manages.
I think where most states get into trouble is with promising more than they can deliver on pensions. Double dipping does not help either. I know here in Jersey my town just re-elected our Sheriff who is collecting a 90K pension in addition to his 130K salary. He will be able to collect a second pension once he retires from being Sheriff. He is also eligible for Social Security.
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I'm sorry if my correction same off as smug. I shouldn't have made the correction as it is irrelevant what its called and this is indeed a message board. It was rude and unnecessary and I'm sorry.
The reason why people say/do things like this though is that they want to brag, and are arrogant (think they know the laws so they don't apply to them). I've seen it a bunch of times and have seen it bite people in the ass.
The reason it is odd, is that it saves him nothing in the other state taxes. Any income paid, requires that taxes be paid in the state they earned the income (not where their residence is), or where the payee was located. This makes taxes for many partners for big law firms insane, as they are required to file taxes in every state that their firm has an office.
My guess is your professor wanted to brag and sound cool. He likely did not break the actual laws when filing taxes.
But you are exactly right, people of that ilk are the ones being targeted by the "privilege tax" because they do take advantage of the tax system (and often write the tax system).
Speaking of bragging:
When I took my tax accounting classes at Marquette, our professor was the retired head of the IRS in Wisconsin. He told us the story of a particular country club where an unusually high number of members were getting audited. Many people aren't aware that the IRS will pay a reward to people who report tax evaders - 10% of everything they collect, including interest and penalties.
Turns out that one guy was turning in all the guys that stood around in the bar and boasted about how much they cheated on their taxes. It's how he put his kids through college.
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Isn't the other solution to raise ("jack") taxes?
Help me out here : https://ballotpedia.org/Tax_policy_in_Illinois
(https://s13.postimg.org/71kkvqp1j/Capture.png)
Admittedly that chart is 2015 .. but wouldn't Illinois' cash flow issues disappear if they raised their tax rates to Wisconsin levels? (Most in WI are at the 6.2% rate.) (WI's sales tax is .75% less, noted.)
Somehow, Wisconsin manages.
The rate was 2% when I moved here. And I am pretty sure we're not getting twice the services now.
Illinois' sales tax is 50% higher than Wisconsin, plus you have county and city sales tax on top of that. City of Chicago sales tax is among the highest in the country, if not the highest. Tennessee's sales tax rate is up there with Chicago's, but they have no income tax, and property taxes are a fraction of what they are in Illinois.
But if you want to drive all the high income folks out of the state, by all means, raise the state income tax.
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McHenry
You're lucky my Grandma Swettenham isn't alive to read your post. She would kick your enginerd ass.
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I think where most states get into trouble is with promising more than they can deliver on pensions. Double dipping does not help either. I know here in Jersey my town just re-elected our Sheriff who is collecting a 90K pension in addition to his 130K salary. He will be able to collect a second pension once he retires from being Sheriff. He is also eligible for Social Security.
Double dipping isn't as much of a problem as the pension formulas are. Someone has to collect that 90k salary regardless if is someone on pension or not.
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Question for the flatlanders - What are the specific issues you've personally dealt with during the past couple years of not having a state budget? Minus the obvious late-payment issues to vendors, I'd be curious what impact it has on daily life ..
.. and what impact a possible bankruptcy would have on citizens.
mu03eng, what "things are getting worse" for you, what do you expect to be less "manageable" in the future, that you'd find Wisconsin to be better?
Well, lets start with the university system. Southern Illinois University in Carbondale had to borrow $35 million from its sister campus in Edwardsville because it has received no state support since January. Classes are being cancelled and enrollment is down to 17,000 from 21,000 because the state has suspended the MAAP program for low-income students seeking college.
Virtually all of the non-University of Illinois campuses (called the Directionals) as well as Chicago State and Governors State are in deep trouble financially right now.
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Double dipping isn't as much of a problem as the pension formulas are. Someone has to collect that 90k salary regardless if is someone on pension or not.
The pension formulas aren't really the problem either. If the governor and legislature would have simply continued to make their contributions to the system back in the 90s and early 2000s as they were supposed to - instead of deferring it to fund pet projects - the pension shortfall wouldn't be nearly as big as it is today.
The blaming of the mess on unions and outrageous benefits, etc., is provably false (and has been proven false many times).
From fiscal 1996 to 2016, unfunded liabilities at those funds grew by nearly $108 billion, or 675 percent, despite a long-term commitment to ramp up annual pension investments and to improve financial soundness at the retirement funds, according to the Commission on Government Forecasting and Accountability.
The commission attributed the largest share of that debt growth, $44.6 billion, to the shortfall in employer pension contributions from the state. Bookkeeping changes that lowered predictions of future investment returns accounted for another $31 billion in debt growth, while lackluster investment returns grew the debt by $14.7 billion.
Meanwhile, employee salary and benefit increases collectively grew the debt by $1.7 billion, or just 1.3 percent, the commission reported.
http://www.bettergov.org/news/big-pensions-just-tiny-part-of-big-pension-mess
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The pension formulas aren't really the problem either. If the governor and legislature would have simply continued to make their contributions to the system back in the 90s and early 2000s as they were supposed to - instead of deferring it to fund pet projects - the pension shortfall wouldn't be nearly as big as it is today.
The blaming of the mess on unions and outrageous benefits, etc., is provably false (and has been proven false many times).
From fiscal 1996 to 2016, unfunded liabilities at those funds grew by nearly $108 billion, or 675 percent, despite a long-term commitment to ramp up annual pension investments and to improve financial soundness at the retirement funds, according to the Commission on Government Forecasting and Accountability.
The commission attributed the largest share of that debt growth, $44.6 billion, to the shortfall in employer pension contributions from the state. Bookkeeping changes that lowered predictions of future investment returns accounted for another $31 billion in debt growth, while lackluster investment returns grew the debt by $14.7 billion.
Meanwhile, employee salary and benefit increases collectively grew the debt by $1.7 billion, or just 1.3 percent, the commission reported.
http://www.bettergov.org/news/big-pensions-just-tiny-part-of-big-pension-mess
I agree with you completely. Wisconsin is an example of a state that has kept up its pension funding so it is in very good shape.
I was speaking specifically to 69's example. My understanding is that in Wisconsin, as long as that Sheriff is not in Milwaukee County, that he wouldn't get a separate pension when he retired, but he would have his original pension recalculated to account for the increased years of service.
Every pension formula can be gamed to an extent, but it seems like some state's formula is easier to gain than others.
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The pension formulas aren't really the problem either. If the governor and legislature would have simply continued to make their contributions to the system back in the 90s and early 2000s as they were supposed to - instead of deferring it to fund pet projects - the pension shortfall wouldn't be nearly as big as it is today.
The blaming of the mess on unions and outrageous benefits, etc., is provably false (and has been proven false many times).
From fiscal 1996 to 2016, unfunded liabilities at those funds grew by nearly $108 billion, or 675 percent, despite a long-term commitment to ramp up annual pension investments and to improve financial soundness at the retirement funds, according to the Commission on Government Forecasting and Accountability.
The commission attributed the largest share of that debt growth, $44.6 billion, to the shortfall in employer pension contributions from the state. Bookkeeping changes that lowered predictions of future investment returns accounted for another $31 billion in debt growth, while lackluster investment returns grew the debt by $14.7 billion.
Meanwhile, employee salary and benefit increases collectively grew the debt by $1.7 billion, or just 1.3 percent, the commission reported.
http://www.bettergov.org/news/big-pensions-just-tiny-part-of-big-pension-mess
It's the formulas, too. There are plenty of teachers whose pensions are larger than what they were making when they were actually working. In Illinois, your pension was based on what your salary was the last two years before you retire. This system is openly gamed by giving teachers big raises those last two years. My next door neighbor did not start teaching until she was in her 50s. She worked about 10 years, and if she has an average life expectacy, she will collect more in pension than she did in wages.
Pension laws were also crafted as a way to grant political favors. There is a famous story about a person who was a substitute teacher for 1 day and now is eligible to collect a pension. He was a teacher's union lobbyist, natch.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2014/10/14/one-day-sub-nearly-1-million-in-teacher-pension/#fdb32fc70147
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Illinois' problems are threefold:
1) We have way too many governments (school districts, special districts, local, county state etc). Pat Quinn tried to deal with this one but got shot out of his saddle so quickly he had no idea what hit him.
2) Every time we raise income taxes, our elected public officials get defeated. See, Ogilvie, Richard, Governor, State of Illinois 1970 to 1972.
3) Our idea of dealing with the post-industrial economy in Illinois is to put as many people on the government payroll as possible. This is the vestige of the Chicago machine patronage system (which is alive and well and has Michael Madigan as its patriarch.
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It's the formulas, too. There are plenty of teachers whose pensions are larger than what they were making when they were actually working. In Illinois, your pension was based on what your salary was the last two years before you retire. This system is openly gamed by giving teachers big raises those last two years. My next door neighbor did not start teaching until she was in her 50s. She worked about 10 years, and if she has an average life expectacy, she will collect more in pension than she did in wages.
Pension laws were also crafted as a way to grant political favors. There is a famous story about a person who was a substitute teacher for 1 day and now is eligible to collect a pension. He was a teacher's union lobbyist, natch.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2014/10/14/one-day-sub-nearly-1-million-in-teacher-pension/#fdb32fc70147
I can't believe I don't remember this story, but this is the perfect story of how Illinois is run, absolutely dead on the money.
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There is a way to solve this problem, if we want.
In post-Watergate 1974, Tennessee elected a Democrat governor. His name was Honest Ray Blanton. Now Honest Ray was a bit of a charlatan. He sold the state motor pool to one group of supporters and bought new vehicles from another who owned auto dealerships. And he sold liquor licenses in Davidson County (Nashville). His family and friends were involved in the now-famous bid-rigging of paving contracts for Tennessee roads.
Tennesseans generally liked the convenience of having more liquor stores. And they figured the sale and repurchase of vehicles was a spoils of being elected. And, well, the roads got built.
But when Honest Ray sold prison pardons, the good people of the state of Tennessee had enough.
Tennesseans elected Governor Lamar Alexander, the anti-Honest Ray, in 1978. Now Tennessee is not a poster child for good government, but things get done, the economy is very good and government is generally a lot cleaner than it used to be.
All we have to do is throw the status-quo out. For some reason in Illinois, we're like trained sea lions in search of a fish. We beg and our politicians throw us a fish. Period.
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I think where most states get into trouble is with promising more than they can deliver on pensions. Double dipping does not help either. I know here in Jersey my town just re-elected our Sheriff who is collecting a 90K pension in addition to his 130K salary. He will be able to collect a second pension once he retires from being Sheriff. He is also eligible for Social Security.
"Double dipping" makes people mad (jealous), but doesn't screw up finances. A pension is like a 401k (but with a performance guarantee.) No one would be mad if you had a job and you decided to withdraw cash from your 401k at the same time.
The 2nd pension you mention .. is an earned pension. Pension rules differ, but they are all on the premise that you work for X years, your employer is paying Y into a fund every year, to pay you Z for a predicted N years when you're done.
Whether you have a salary and a pension, or two pensions, or whatever .. it's just a combination of compensation for your work, plus withdrawals on your vested interest in a pension that was part of your previous work.
There's no scandal in that, it's part of your employment compensation offer: we will pay you something now, and something later.
The scandal is making employment offers and not funding them. (and making excessive offers.)
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There is a way to solve this problem, if we want.
In post-Watergate 1974, Tennessee elected a Democrat governor. His name was Honest Ray Blanton. Now Honest Ray was a bit of a charlatan. He sold the state motor pool to one group of supporters and bought new vehicles from another who owned auto dealerships. And he sold liquor licenses in Davidson County (Nashville). His family and friends were involved in the now-famous bid-rigging of paving contracts for Tennessee roads.
Tennesseans generally liked the convenience of having more liquor stores. And they figured the sale and repurchase of vehicles was a spoils of being elected. And, well, the roads got built.
But when Honest Ray sold prison pardons, the good people of the state of Tennessee had enough.
Tennesseans elected Governor Lamar Alexander, the anti-Honest Ray, in 1978. Now Tennessee is not a poster child for good government, but things get done, the economy is very good and government is generally a lot cleaner than it used to be.
All we have to do is throw the status-quo out. For some reason in Illinois, we're like trained sea lions in search of a fish. We beg and our politicians throw us a fish. Period.
Here is who runs the state, and he is elected by those he employs on his public payroll. His daughter is his watchdog.
(https://ballotpedia.org/wiki/images/9/9b/IL_HD_022.JPG)
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Illinois' sales tax is 50% higher than Wisconsin, plus you have county and city sales tax on top of that. City of Chicago sales tax is among the highest in the country, if not the highest. Tennessee's sales tax rate is up there with Chicago's, but they have no income tax, and property taxes are a fraction of what they are in Illinois.
But if you want to drive all the high income folks out of the state, by all means, raise the state income tax.
We need a fuller picture for comparisons, no doubt. Chicago has a higher sales tax than MKE .. but WI State tax revenue is shared with MKE at some rate .. perhaps IL shares with CHI as well, but at a different rate, thus their need to make up the revenue, etc, etc.
As for driving out high income folks:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2016/05/26/do-high-state-taxes-drive-away-millionaires-not-really
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We need a fuller picture for comparisons, no doubt. Chicago has a higher sales tax than MKE .. but WI State tax revenue is shared with MKE at some rate .. perhaps IL shares with CHI as well, but at a different rate, thus their need to make up the revenue, etc, etc.
As for driving out high income folks:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2016/05/26/do-high-state-taxes-drive-away-millionaires-not-really
That study focused on folks who make $1 million a year or more. That is a tiny number (relatively speaking).
In my statement, I meant people who earn six figures or more. And I wasn't necessarily saying that an increase in income tax alone would prompt a lot of them to move (and the study you cited used that as the criterion), but in Illinois, it just might be the last straw. It's already been noted that Chicago is the only major city in 2015 (the last year statistics were available) to lose population.
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Here is who runs the state, and he is elected by those he employs on his public payroll. His daughter is his watchdog.
(https://ballotpedia.org/wiki/images/9/9b/IL_HD_022.JPG)
Whose fault is that?
There are 12 million Illinoisians. We should expect more from our elected representatives. We allow Madigan and Friends of Mike Madigan to set our future for us.
Until we stop being politically lazy and stop barking for fish like a trained sea lion, we get the government we deserve. The people of District 22 control Illinois because we let them. Period!
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We need a fuller picture for comparisons, no doubt. Chicago has a higher sales tax than MKE .. but WI State tax revenue is shared with MKE at some rate .. perhaps IL shares with CHI as well, but at a different rate, thus their need to make up the revenue, etc, etc.
As for driving out high income folks:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2016/05/26/do-high-state-taxes-drive-away-millionaires-not-really
I remember that study when I read about it last year, and I was mildly surprised - but not stunned. Successful people, in general, like where they are.
But even in the unlikely event that it did have the move-away effect in Illinois, a bunch of folks here already said they were planning on leaving, so it apparently wouldn't make a difference!
FWIW (probably not much), when I left Chicago for Charlotte in 2010, taxes had zero to do with it. The overall cost of living did have something to do with it, as did the weather. Mostly, though, we just felt like making a change.
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Whose fault is that?
There are 12 million Illinoisians. We should expect more from our elected representatives. We allow Madigan and Friends of Mike Madigan to set our future for us.
Until we stop being politically lazy and stop barking for fish like a trained sea lion, we get the government we deserve. The people of District 22 control Illinois because we let them. Period!
We did. We elected Rauner.
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Isn't the other solution to raise ("jack") taxes?
Help me out here : https://ballotpedia.org/Tax_policy_in_Illinois
(https://s13.postimg.org/71kkvqp1j/Capture.png)
Admittedly that chart is 2015 .. but wouldn't Illinois' cash flow issues disappear if they raised their tax rates to Wisconsin levels? (Most in WI are at the 6.2% rate.) (WI's sales tax is .75% less, noted.)
Somehow, Wisconsin manages.
Wrong stat. Look at all-in taxes paid. The Tax Foundation measures this via the Tax Freedom day (the day you work to pay taxes).
https://taxfoundation.org/tax-freedom-day-2017/
(https://files.taxfoundation.org/20170418100254/2017-Tax-Freedom-Day-01.png)
Note that Illinois is already #44 in taxes paid, higher than any other state in the Midwest.
And because the tax burden is crushing, this is happening ...
Cook County Illinois Suffers Largest Population Drop In Entire US
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-26/cook-county-illinois-suffers-largest-population-drop-entire-us
Illinois loses more residents in 2016 than any other state
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-illinois-population-decline-met-20161220-story.html
Who leaves? The answer, those that have the means to leave. Or, those that pay taxes leave. Those that depend on services stay, because they lack the means to leave.
So, Illinois problem is very simple ... it has lost too many people (taxpayers) and its tax base is shrinking while its obligations are not shrinking. The reason people are leaving is the cost of staying pushes them out.
So the absolutely wrong thing to do it jack up taxes. Jacking up taxes is the cause of the problem in the first place, not the solution.
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Wrong stat. Look at all-in taxes paid. The Tax Foundation measures this via the Tax Freedom day (the day you work to pay taxes).
https://taxfoundation.org/tax-freedom-day-2017/
(https://files.taxfoundation.org/20170418100254/2017-Tax-Freedom-Day-01.png)
Note that Illinois is already #44 in taxes paid, higher than any other state in the Midwest.
And because the tax burden is crushing, this is happening ...
Cook County Illinois Suffers Largest Population Drop In Entire US
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-26/cook-county-illinois-suffers-largest-population-drop-entire-us
Illinois loses more residents in 2016 than any other state
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-illinois-population-decline-met-20161220-story.html
Who leaves? The answer, those that have the means to leave. Or, those that pay taxes leave. Those that depend on services stay, because they lack the means to leave.
So, Illinois problem is very simple ... it has lost too many people (taxpayers) and its tax base is shrinking while its obligations are not shrinking. The reason people are leaving is the cost of staying pushes them out.
So the absolutely wrong thing to do it jack up taxes. Jacking up taxes is the cause of the problem in the first place, not the solution.
The thing is the most people leaving the state are low income people. Higher income people are still sticking around as they want to live in Chicago vs. other midwest places. It's the only big city in the midwest so that has a draw.
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The thing is the most people leaving the state are low income people. Higher income people are still sticking around as they want to live in Chicago vs. other midwest places. It's the only big city in the midwest so that has a draw.
You said the same thing ... people that pay taxes are leaving.
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These facts are inconvenient!
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http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/federal-subsidies-chicago-schools-4-billion-4-years-10540-student
I'm paying for Chicago schools.
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You're paying for every public school district in the country. You just realized this?
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You're paying for every public school district in the country. You just realized this?
My school district does not get 10K per student from the federal government.
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My school district does not get 10K per student from the federal government.
It gets something.
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Is is pretty interesting to me that the tax chart and the red/blue political map line up pretty well.
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The thing is the most people leaving the state are low income people. Higher income people are still sticking around as they want to live in Chicago vs. other midwest places. It's the only big city in the midwest so that has a draw.
Source?
And if you think Chicago is the only big city in the Midwest, you need to brush up on your geography.
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Source?
See pages 17-18. Those with incomes of $25K or less are leaving at greater rates than those with larger incomes.
https://www.iml.org/file.cfm?key=5203
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Source?
See pages 17-18. Those with incomes of $25K or less are leaving at greater rates than those with larger incomes.
https://www.iml.org/file.cfm?key=5203
Thanks. I actually read it (not sure you did) and had these takeaways:
1. The "average income per migrant" includes children. Therefore, a mom, dad, and three kids whose household income is $124,000 would all be counted as part of the "under $25,000" strata. I would contend that a young family with a 6-figure income are the type of folks you don't want moving out.
2. Over 5% of the net migrants out are 18 and 19 year olds. My guess is that the overwhelming majority of those are kids going to college out of state or joining the military. Obviously, the average income of those people is going to be well under $25K, and their decision to move is not affect by state tax rates.
I would like to see these same study using household income as opposed to individual income, and excluding full-time students. Then you would have some useful data.
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Thanks. I actually read it (not sure you did) and had these takeaways:
1. The "average income per migrant" includes children. Therefore, a mom, dad, and three kids whose household income is $124,000 would all be counted as part of the "under $25,000" strata. I would contend that a young family with a 6-figure income are the type of folks you don't want moving out.
2. Over 5% of the net migrants out are 18 and 19 year olds. My guess is that the overwhelming majority of those are kids going to college out of state or joining the military. Obviously, the average income of those people is going to be well under $25K, and their decision to move is not affect by state tax rates.
I would like to see these same study using household income as opposed to individual income, and excluding full-time students. Then you would have some useful data.
1. Not sure that your takeaway is correct. It does not list the AGI per person, it lists it per exemption. That would only include then the individual and their spouse if they have one.
2. Those going to college out of state would not appear as a migrant, as they would still be considered a dependent of their family, and would hence not constitute an exemption.
Seeing it for individual income would largely not be possible, because those that are married and filing jointly will have a combined AGI and the IRS does not separate back out the individual AGI's for reporting purposes.
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You said the same thing ... people that pay taxes are leaving.
So high income people aren't paying taxes?
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Thanks. I actually read it (not sure you did) and had these takeaways:
1. The "average income per migrant" includes children. Therefore, a mom, dad, and three kids whose household income is $124,000 would all be counted as part of the "under $25,000" strata. I would contend that a young family with a 6-figure income are the type of folks you don't want moving out.
2. Over 5% of the net migrants out are 18 and 19 year olds. My guess is that the overwhelming majority of those are kids going to college out of state or joining the military. Obviously, the average income of those people is going to be well under $25K, and their decision to move is not affect by state tax rates.
I would like to see these same study using household income as opposed to individual income, and excluding full-time students. Then you would have some useful data.
First, I apologize for my bad post quoting in my earlier post.
Also:
- I think forgetful is correct about exemptions.
- Since the study is based in part on tracking IRS filings, I don't believe 18-year-olds who leave Illinois temporarily for college out of state would count as migrants, as they're unlikely to start immediately - if ever - filing individual tax returns in the state in which they attend school.
As for a household income survey, I've looked and not found it, but I'll keep searching.
This is perhaps a bit more anecdotal, but telling nonetheless. A deep dive of the population loss in Chicago shows that the vast, vast majority of it is the result of an exodus from the South and West sides. The Loop and North sides are, in fact, growing .... substantially so, in the case of the Loop.
I suspect I don't need to tell you the likely household incomes of South and West side residents vs those living in or moving into the Loop, Lincoln Park and Lakeview.
Suffice to say these numbers belie claims that people with money are fleeing Chicago or Illinois. To the contrary, they appear to be the people staying or moving in. It's the lower-income residents leaving. And I'd venture to guess (speculation on my part) it's not the budget impasse, pensions and taxes that's causing them to leave. It's crime, a lack of economic opportunity, poor schools and a continually weakening safety net ... none of which is likely to get better through lowers taxes for the people moving to Lake Point Tower.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20161213/BLOGS02/161219983/as-loop-population-booms-south-sides-plummets
In the meantime, there's an unprecedented boom in the development of high-end apartments downtown.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20161114/CRED02/161119947/for-downtown-apartment-landlords-a-tough-year-ahead
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First, I apologize for my bad post quoting in my earlier post.
Also:
- I think forgetful is correct about exemptions.
- Since the study is based in part on tracking IRS filings, I don't believe 18-year-olds who leave Illinois temporarily for college out of state would count as migrants, as they're unlikely to start immediately - if ever - filing individual tax returns in the state in which they attend school.
As for a household income survey, I've looked and not found it, but I'll keep searching.
This is perhaps a bit more anecdotal, but telling nonetheless. A deep dive of the population loss in Chicago shows that the vast, vast majority of it is the result of an exodus from the South and West sides. The Loop and North sides are, in fact, growing .... substantially so, in the case of the Loop.
I suspect I don't need to tell you the likely household incomes of South and West side residents vs those living in or moving into the Loop, Lincoln Park and Lakeview.
Suffice to say these numbers belie claims that people with money are fleeing Chicago or Illinois. To the contrary, they appear to be the people staying or moving in. It's the lower-income residents leaving. And I'd venture to guess (speculation on my part) it's not the budget impasse, pensions and taxes that's causing them to leave. It's crime, a lack of economic opportunity, poor schools and a continually weakening safety net ... none of which is likely to get better through lowers taxes for the people moving to Lake Point Tower.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20161213/BLOGS02/161219983/as-loop-population-booms-south-sides-plummets
In the meantime, there's an unprecedented boom in the development of high-end apartments downtown.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20161114/CRED02/161119947/for-downtown-apartment-landlords-a-tough-year-ahead
Taxpayers receive an exemption for each qualifying child:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch03.html
If they are using tax returns to determine migration, then they are either using the address of the person filing the return, or noting the state in which the person filed a return. My kids had to file Wisconsin State tax returns to get back the 80 bucks or whatever they had paid in in state income tax on their school jobs. Before that, they had to file in Illinois for their summer lifeguard jobs. Therefore, it is quite possible that they counted each of my kids as being someone whose income is $2,000 per year migrating to Wisconsin. That's the kind of thing that is going to drag down your average.
In any case, the study you cite is strictly based on correlation. And as we all know, correlation (or the lack thereof) is not causation (or the lack thereof).
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Taxpayers receive an exemption for each qualifying child:
https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch03.html
Either way, the point and premise (which you've not addressed) remains the same - it's not the well-heeled that are leaving Illinois. It's the lower and working classes. And the other data I posted supports it further. Adding to that, the trend is the same in the suburbs. It's the poorer near South and West suburbs like Cicero, Harvey, Berwyn, Calumet City, that are seeing the bigger declines, while better off communities like Naperville, Lisle, St. Charles, Vernon Hills, Arlington Heights, etc., are growing.
http://reportcards.dailyherald.com/gfx/2017/census2016/index.html
I'm not saying that's a good thing either, but it flies in the face of arguments that wealthy residents are fleeing the state en masse because the taxes are too darned high. It's the lower and working classes that are leaving because of the lack of opportunity.
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Are you arguing that the population loss is good for Illinois financial position?
As far as lower income leaving the west and south sides... Illinois and Chicago terrible financial position means crappy schools, high crime and lack of opportunities. They leave with their taxes with them and the vicious cycle continues.
It ends with bankruptcy and every gets some percentage of what they are owed, not all they are owed.
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We are arguing that the population loss is good for Illinois financial position?
Nobody has made that argument.
That said, the argument could be made that fewer low-income residents = fewer citizens receiving public benefits without contributing much to their cost. I'm not making that argument, though.
As far as lower income leaving the west and south sides... Illinois and chicago terrible financial position means crappy schools, high crime and lack of opportunities. They leave with their taxes with them and the vicious cycle continues.
Huh. I've been told around here that poor people don't pay taxes. Don't have "skin in the game" or something like that.
But yes, that's just what I said ... poor and working class people are leaving because of crime, flailing schools, weak social services and a lack of opportunity.
They're not leaving because their property taxes are too high and they're worried about teacher pensions.
It ends with bankruptcy and every gets some percentage of what they are owed, not all the are owed.
States are legally forbidden from filing for bankruptcy. It would take an act of Congress to change that. Do you think Congress wants to get involved in Illinois' mess? You think they want take sides in it?
The other problem, of course, is persuading a judge that a state with one of the 13th lowest income tax in the nation has no means to pay its debts without bankruptcy.
And, I'll need a Constitutional scholar to weigh in on whether a bankruptcy judge can negate the Illinois Constitution's prohibition on diminishing benefits.
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Record numbers leaving and this ...
ILLINOIS STATE WORKERS HIGHEST PAID IN NATION
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/illinois-state-workers-highest-paid-in-nation/
(https://d2dv7hze646xr.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Screen-Shot-2016-05-12-at-11.53.22-PM.png)
edit: image width
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Again the problem is not too low taxes, it's overpaying state and municipal workers and granting benefits it cannot afford. Combined with a major loss of population (taxpayers) and when have this ...
Report: Illinois is the worst state to be a taxpayer
POLITICS 04/15/2015, 11:36am
http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/report-illinois-is-the-worst-state-to-be-a-taxpayer/
For Illinois residents, there’s isn’t much good financial news.
In fact, it’s so bad, even Abraham Lincoln is feeling the effects of it, 150 years after his assassination.
And now, a new report from Wallet Hub rubs salt in your Tax Day wounds. The report shows Illinois residents have the highest state and local tax obligations, paying more than 2.5 times more than the cheapest states.
This comes on the heels of a report showing Illinois has the second-highest real estate taxes in the nation. The state also has one of the most unfair tax systems.
Wallet Hub “calculated relative income tax obligations by applying the average American’s income to the effective income taxes rate in each state and locality” to come up with the rankings.
The average Illinois resident will pay $7,719 in state and local taxes.
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States are legally forbidden from filing for bankruptcy. It would take an act of Congress to change that. Do you think Congress wants to get involved in Illinois' mess? You think they want take sides in it?
The other problem, of course, is persuading a judge that a state with one of the 13th lowest income tax in the nation has no means to pay its debts without bankruptcy.
And, I'll need a Constitutional scholar to weigh in on whether a bankruptcy judge can negate the Illinois Constitution's prohibition on diminishing benefits.
The same was said about Puerto Rico and this happened and set the precedent
Puerto Rico Declares a Form of Bankruptcy
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/business/dealbook/puerto-rico-debt.html
The action sent Puerto Rico, whose approximately $123 billion in debt and pension obligations far exceeds the $18 billion bankruptcy filed by Detroit in 2013, to uncharted ground.
While the court proceedings could eventually make the island solvent for the first time in decades, the more immediate repercussions will likely be grim: Government workers will forgo pension money, public health and infrastructure projects will go wanting, and the “brain drain” the island has been suffering as professionals move to the mainland could intensify.
And while not a state, this wasn't supposed to be possible either ....
Detroit becomes largest U.S. city to enter bankruptcy
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/03/detroit-bankruptcy-eligibility/3849833/
The Case for Allowing U.S. States to Declare Bankruptcy
States can’t seek legal protection from their debts, but there’s a move on to change that.
January 21, 2016, 3:44 PM CST
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-21/the-case-for-allowing-u-s-states-to-declare-bankruptcy
Don't Be So Sure That States Can't Go Bankrupt
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/07/28/dont-be-so-sure-that-states-cant-go-bankrupt/#5151298f2f2d
In Illinois, Some Push Bankruptcy As Solution To Troubled Public Budgets
https://www.forbes.com/sites/legalnewsline/2016/04/19/in-illinois-some-push-bankruptcy-as-solution-to-troubled-public-budgets/#5841b55b33d2
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The same was said about Puerto Rico and this happened and set the precedent
[...]
And while not a state, this wasn't supposed to be possible either ....
Detroit becomes largest U.S. city to enter bankruptcy
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/03/detroit-bankruptcy-eligibility/3849833/
[...]
Chapter 9 of the bankruptcy code was specifically written to govern municipal bankruptcies. The questions regarding Detroit's bankruptcy wasn't whether or not municipalities could file for bankruptcy protection, but whether Detroit qualified under the law.
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Triggered much?
No. Did the rules change? http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51888.0
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Of the top 11 wealthiest cities in Illinois (per Forbes), only Hinsdale, OakBrook, Hawthorn Woods, and Western Springs saw population growth from 2014 to 2016.
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Of the top 11 wealthiest cities in Illinois (per Forbes), only Hinsdale, OakBrook, Hawthorn Woods, and Western Springs saw population growth from 2014 to 2016.
Not sure that means anything, Dish. A lot of the wealthy burbs are basically built out, and are the types of places that aren't exactly hospitable to new high-density housing.
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Not sure that means anything, Dish. A lot of the wealthy burbs are basically built out, and are the types of places that aren't exactly hospitable to new high-density housing.
Agreed, I thought it was just interesting for context.
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States are legally forbidden from filing for bankruptcy. It would take an act of Congress to change that. Do you think Congress wants to get involved in Illinois' mess? You think they want take sides in it?
At some point, Congress is going to have to get involved because the political discipline to do so in Illinois does not exist.
In Puerto Rico's case, Congress enacted a law that allowed for Conservatorship.
In fact, we who lived in the south learned early in life what our country calls Congress' direct involvement in state affairs -- Reconstruction.
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At some point, Congress is going to have to get involved because the political discipline to do so in Illinois does not exist.
In Puerto Rico's case, Congress enacted a law that allowed for Conservatorship.
In fact, we who lived in the south learned early in life what our country calls Congress' direct involvement in state affairs -- Reconstruction.
Congress' willingness and ability to address something like Illinois' solvency is only greater than that of the Illinois politicians simply because Illinois politicians will power is the square root of a negative number (if you are a math geek, that means an imaginary number). There is absolutely no way that Congress will step into the Illinois mess, it creates too much precedent for other states and our governments were specifically set-up so that the federal government couldn't absorb state debt again(after it absorbed the state debt as part of the Hamilton-Jefferson compromise).
Just to give an idea of the total debt issue I took a look at the debt load at one city, Cary, Illinois which has debt at the city, elementary school, and high school levels. What's not included is any debt at the county or state level.
District 26(K-8th): $29,745,998
District 155(9-12th): $8,150,201*
City: $12,824,173
Total: $50,720,372
Yes I'm not accounting for assets but either way a city of ~17,000 is carrying a debt load of over $50 million dollars. If most of the suburban cities are like that it makes the Illinois problem even worse.
*a fourth of the total district debt as there are 4 high schools but Cary only accounts for a fourth of the student population
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[...]
Yes I'm not accounting for assets but either way a city of ~17,000 is carrying a debt load of over $50 million dollars. If most of the suburban cities are like that it makes the Illinois problem even worse.
[...]
Simple, special one time tax of aprx $3k/citizen, boom, debt free city.
Debt crisis, schmet crisis.
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Simple, special one time tax of aprx $3k/citizen, boom, debt free city.
Debt crisis, schmet crisis.
The average salary $63k/year ... down from $66k/year in 2005
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/illinois/chicago/
So you are going to hand a family of four a $12,000 bill? The same family of four that has seen no raise in the last 12 years and already pays about $12 to $15k in property taxes. So, the fix is easy, take half the income of the average Chicagoan so city workers can continue to get pensions of $100k/year.
Is your plan to destroy Chicago? Because this is a pretty good way to drive hundreds of thousands out of the city and destroy it.
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Simple, special one time tax of aprx $3k/citizen, boom, debt free city.
Debt crisis, schmet crisis.
National debt adds $61,300 per citizen
Illinois debt adds $12,007 per citizen
So one time bill for a family of four to cover all debts in the city of Cary up to the national level is: ($3k+$61.3k+$12k)*4 so a total of $305,200. Just city and state(leaving county out even) would be $60,000 as a one time bill.
Oh, and totally unaccounted for is how cheap debt is right now, and this is especially critical for Illinois, the cost of servicing their massive amount of debt is going to go up over the next several years which will chew up a lot of any additional tax revenue they can generate by raising taxes....same thing at the federal level.
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The average salary $63k/year ... down from $66k/year in 2005
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/illinois/chicago/
So you are going to hand a family of four a $12,000 bill? The same family of four that has seen no raise in the last 12 years and already pays about $12 to $15k in property taxes. So, the fix is easy, take half the income of the average Chicagoan so city workers can continue to get pensions of $100k/year.
Is your plan to destroy Chicago? Because this is a pretty good way to drive hundreds of thousands out of the city and destroy it.
Easy Francis...
I thought "debt crisis, schmet crisis" was a viable teal stand in, but please don't let reasonable context clues get in the way of your urge to argue on the internet.
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FWIW, I felt the teal, jficke.
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FWIW, I felt the teal, jficke.
I did too, but decided to really pile on with the debt doom and gloom....guess I have a case of the Mondays :)
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2015-08-25-1440538534-7002988-uhohsounds.jpg)
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Congress' willingness and ability to address something like Illinois' solvency is only greater than that of the Illinois politicians simply because Illinois politicians will power is the square root of a negative number (if you are a math geek, that means an imaginary number). There is absolutely no way that Congress will step into the Illinois mess, it creates too much precedent for other states and our governments were specifically set-up so that the federal government couldn't absorb state debt again(after it absorbed the state debt as part of the Hamilton-Jefferson compromise).
Just to give an idea of the total debt issue I took a look at the debt load at one city, Cary, Illinois which has debt at the city, elementary school, and high school levels. What's not included is any debt at the county or state level.
District 26(K-8th): $29,745,998
District 155(9-12th): $8,150,201*
City: $12,824,173
Total: $50,720,372
Yes I'm not accounting for assets but either way a city of ~17,000 is carrying a debt load of over $50 million dollars. If most of the suburban cities are like that it makes the Illinois problem even worse.
*a fourth of the total district debt as there are 4 high schools but Cary only accounts for a fourth of the student population
Except debt in and of itself isn't a bad thing, nor is carrying a debt a sign of financial mismanagement/struggle. If it were, the majority of the Fortune 500 would be in tatters (Apple debt = $100 billion; Amazon debt = $20 billion; GE debt - $128billion; GM debt = $91 billion).
In fact, in many cases - such as funding capital projects - it makes far more sense to carry debt (especially given current interest rates) than to pay as you go. And I think with a little more probing you'd find that the debt of the governments in Cary is a result of just that - facility improvements, life-safety work, infrastructure upgrades, etc.
When a government is issuing debt to cover its operating costs - outside of perhaps tax anticipation warrants, which are sometimes necessary because of the state's tax payment schedule - then you have cause for concern.
But issuing debt to cover capital projects is not an example of poor financial stewardship, and quite often is evidence of just the opposite. Unless you think it's better to impose massive one-time tax hikes every time you need a new school, police station or sewage plant.
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Except debt in and of itself isn't a bad thing, nor is carrying a debt a sign of financial mismanagement/struggle. If it were, the majority of the Fortune 500 would be in tatters (Apple debt = $100 billion; Amazon debt = $20 billion; GE debt - $128billion; GM debt = $91 billion).
In fact, in many cases - such as funding capital projects - it makes far more sense to carry debt (especially given current interest rates) than to pay as you go. And I think with a little more probing you'd find that the debt of the governments in Cary is a result of just that - facility improvements, life-safety work, infrastructure upgrades, etc.
When a government is issuing debt to cover its operating costs - outside of perhaps tax anticipation warrants, which are sometimes necessary because of the state's tax payment schedule - then you have cause for concern.
But issuing debt to cover capital projects is not an example of poor financial stewardship, and quite often is evidence of just the opposite. Unless you think it's better to impose massive one-time tax hikes every time you need a new school, police station or sewage plant.
Actually, especially the school debt, is at least in part covering operational expenses....not just capital projects. Additionally, just because you can take on debt for a new project, doesn't mean A) that project should take place or B) that debt is the most effective means of paying for that project.
I fully understand the usage and benefits of debt, and in of itself it is not bad. However when you stack debt across all levels of government and recognize the only way to resolve that debt is to increase tax revenue or reduce services that debt becomes more daunting.
Lastly, you mention the Fortune 500 companies and their debt. This is correct, but what you left out was their annual revenues:
Apple - $214.23 Billion
Amazon - $135.99 Billion
GE - $119.87 Billion
GM - $166.388 Billion
With the exception of GE, they are generating more revenue per year than debt they hold which is an entirely stable position. In the case of the federal government and a lot of districts/municipalities that is not true and is not sustainable over the long term, especially as service on the debt increases.
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Except debt in and of itself isn't a bad thing, nor is carrying a debt a sign of financial mismanagement/struggle. If it were, the majority of the Fortune 500 would be in tatters (Apple debt = $100 billion; Amazon debt = $20 billion; GE debt - $128billion; GM debt = $91 billion).
In fact, in many cases - such as funding capital projects - it makes far more sense to carry debt (especially given current interest rates) than to pay as you go. And I think with a little more probing you'd find that the debt of the governments in Cary is a result of just that - facility improvements, life-safety work, infrastructure upgrades, etc.
When a government is issuing debt to cover its operating costs - outside of perhaps tax anticipation warrants, which are sometimes necessary because of the state's tax payment schedule - then you have cause for concern.
But issuing debt to cover capital projects is not an example of poor financial stewardship, and quite often is evidence of just the opposite. Unless you think it's better to impose massive one-time tax hikes every time you need a new school, police station or sewage plant.
Unfortunately, determining whether debt is "good" or "bad" requires a looking line-by-line at each item. That's work. It's much easier to line up by partisan tribe and shout platitudes.
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Actually, especially the school debt, is at least in part covering operational expenses....not just capital projects.
Source?
And again, are we talking TAWs, which are just a timing mechanism, or debt to cover year-over-year operational deficits?
Additionally, just because you can take on debt for a new project, doesn't mean A) that project should take place or B) that debt is the most effective means of paying for that project.
Well, OK, but whether a project should take place or not is a completely different argument than the one you made earlier casting any debt as bad.
That said, I would argue that debt most often is the best way of paying for a project. When enrollment spikes mean a high school needs a $10 million expansion, you either issue bonds or you ask your taxpayers to come up with $10 million RIGHT NOW. Or you overtax your residents year after year after year to make sure you build up enough reserves that you never need to issue bonds for large projects.
Which do you choose?
Lastly, you mention the Fortune 500 companies and their debt. This is correct, but what you left out was their annual revenues:
Apple - $214.23 Billion
Amazon - $135.99 Billion
GE - $119.87 Billion
GM - $166.388 Billion
With the exception of GE, they are generating more revenue per year than debt they hold which is an entirely stable position. In the case of the federal government and a lot of districts/municipalities that is not true and is not sustrightble over the long term, especially as service on the debt increases.
You failed to mention annual revenues for Cary, District 26, District 155.
Cary = $17.32 million (2015)
District 155 = $114.3 million/4 = $28.6 million (FY 2015/16)
District 26 = $30.6 million (FY 2015/16)
So, like the companies I mentioned, all have annual revenues exceeding their debts, which is an entirely stable position. Likely moreso because, as governmental entities, they should be paying lower interest on their debts.
Look, I'm fine with an overall argument that governments incurring substantial debts - especially for operational deficits - is a bad thing. But an argument that debt is bad, without considering the type of debt or its purpose, is just plain wrong. Some debt is in fact good.
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Source?
And again, are we talking TAWs, which are just a timing mechanism, or debt to cover year-over-year operational deficits?
My father sat on the school board for a number of year until a year ago and left because they chose to add debt to cover YoY operational deficits.
Well, OK, but whether a project should take place or not is a completely different argument than the one you made earlier casting any debt as bad.
That said, I would argue that debt most often is the best way of paying for a project. When enrollment spikes mean a high school needs a $10 million expansion, you either issue bonds or you ask your taxpayers to come up with $10 million RIGHT NOW. Or you overtax your residents year after year after year to make sure you build up enough reserves that you never need to issue bonds for large projects.
Which do you choose?
I am in no way implying that there should be no debt or that debt by government entities is bad on it's face. My ultimate point is that debt accrued against all levels of government is the concern as it represents an over leveraging of tax payers. Each level of government is part of the larger whole and we don't treat it as such. We only look at the pieces.
You failed to mention annual revenues for Cary, District 26, District 155.
Cary = $17.32 million (2015)
District 155 = $114.3 million/4 = $28.6 million (FY 2015/16)
District 26 = $30.6 million (FY 2015/16)
So, like the companies I mentioned, all have annual revenues exceeding their debts, which is an entirely stable position. Likely moreso because, as governmental entities, they should be paying lower interest on their debts.
Fair comeback. However, they aren't more stable because of lower interest rates, because they have less ability to generate revenue or decrease cost than would public/private company. At best it's a wash.
Look, I'm fine with an overall argument that governments incurring substantial debts - especially for operational deficits - is a bad thing. But an argument that debt is bad, without considering the type of debt or its purpose, is just plain wrong. Some debt is in fact good.
Again, never said "debt's bad, mmkay". Simply showed that the total debt load created by governments at all levels is likely very problematic.
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My father sat on the school board for a number of year until a year ago and left because they chose to add debt to cover YoY operational deficits.
Which board? I might know your dad.
However, they aren't more stable because of lower interest rates, because they have less ability to generate revenue or decrease cost than would public/private company. At best it's a wash.
Boy, I really disagree here. Government entities have far more ability to generate revenue - and arguably decrease cost - than a company. All it takes is a tax hike.
Again, never said "debt's bad, mmkay". Simply showed that the total debt load created by governments at all levels is likely very problematic.
Well, again, it depends. Even the most financially sound governments - and companies, for that matter - carry debt because it's sometimes the most effective (including cost-effective) way of doing business. I don't think the total amount matters so long as your ratios are reasonable and the debt is being incurred for sound reasons.
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Which board? I might know your dad.
D26
Boy, I really disagree here. Government entities have far more ability to generate revenue - and arguably decrease cost - than a company. All it takes is a tax hike.
On the cost side, governments are much less flexible as the majority of their costs are built into typically unionized contracts (not a pejorative, just fact) as well as contracts that are harder to get out of (single source, direct bid, etc).
As far as revenue, you are correct in the short term governments can simply raise taxes and generate additional revenue. However, long term that likely leads to resident flight which has diminishing returns as you have to increase taxes to generate the same revenue
Well, again, it depends. Even the most financially sound governments - and companies, for that matter - carry debt because it's sometimes the most effective (including cost-effective) way of doing business. I don't think the total amount matters so long as your ratios are reasonable and the debt is being incurred for sound reasons.
There is a lot of assumption here that government debt is being incurred for sound reasons. You have a lot more faith than I do.
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D26
Nope. Knew a lot of the D155 board members, but no one at 26.
There is a lot of assumption here that government debt is being incurred for sound reasons. You have a lot more faith than I do.
I'm not assuming anything.
Simply stating that there's nothing wrong with incurring debt for sound reasons. Are you suggesting there are no sound reasons for a government incurring debt?
If so, how do you suggest paying for a new high school or police station or major road project?
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I'm not assuming anything.
Simply stating that there's nothing wrong with incurring debt for sound reasons. Are you suggesting there are no sound reasons for a government incurring debt?
If so, how do you suggest paying for a new high school or police station or major road project?
Absolutely not, government debt is not bad on it's face, but even too much "good" debt can be bad.
If debt is generated for valuable, cost effective projects...awesome. If debt is generated for wasteful or unnecessary projects....no bueno. Additionally, if too much debt is accrued, regardless of "type" it would be bad. All I'm saying is that I think all the levels of government are coming close (IMO) to too much total debt and there is a a fair amount of "bad" debt on the books.
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If debt is generated for valuable, cost effective projects...awesome. If debt is generated for wasteful or unnecessary projects....no bueno.
And on that we can agree.
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Absolutely not, government debt is not bad on it's face, but even too much "good" debt can be bad.
"Good debt" and "bad debt" is a function of debt coverage ratios ("DCRs"). Most lenders have a minimum DCR of 1.2x debt service and ideally like about 1.5x to 2.0x or greater.
Bad debt is debt below 1.2x or debt with inadequate securing collateral or debt where borrowers don't believe in adhering to the covenants in the borrowing agreement.
Which one is Illinois?
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"Good debt" and "bad debt" is a function of debt coverage ratios ("DCRs"). Most lenders have a minimum DCR of 1.2x debt service and ideally like about 1.5x to 2.0x or greater.
Bad debt is debt below 1.2x or debt with inadequate securing collateral or debt where borrowers don't believe in adhering to the covenants in the borrowing agreement.
Which one is Illinois?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/8acGIeFnqLA7S/200w.webp#23-grid1)
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Govt debt is different. As a private entity if I borrow money for new machinery there is an asset that has value that can be "attached" as well as potentially more efficient production method lowering cost increasing ability to pay back the debt. And the value typically goes down at a lower rate than it depreciates using whatever depreciation rate the govt decides I get to use 3-7 years. This excludes property improvements where the Govt says 29.5 years and the roof or parking lot usually are replaced in less than half that time.
If Govt borrows money for a school that asset has almost no value when sold because it is difficult to repurpose. The product may or may not stay in the taxing district so it may not increase the ability to pay back and the value to the existing taxpayers (being in a better school district) is probably completely gone before the final payments are made 20 to 30 years in the future.
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If Govt borrows money for a school that asset has almost no value when sold because it is difficult to repurpose.
Wrong.
If you're lending on a school, the building and ground has some value that could be recovered. We've seen the value of tollways, airports and even parking meters in recent years.
Also, there is a difference between revenue bonds, which are secured by a project's revenue, and g/o bonds, which are secured by all the revenue in a community. In a well-run community, I'd rather have the G/O bonds. But in Illinois, the revenue from the project or the securing asset may have more value.
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Wrong.
If you're lending on a school, the building and ground has some value that could be recovered. We've seen the value of tollways, airports and even parking meters in recent years.
Also, there is a difference between revenue bonds, which are secured by a project's revenue, and g/o bonds, which are secured by all the revenue in a community. In a well-run community, I'd rather have the G/O bonds. But in Illinois, the revenue from the project or the securing asset may have more value.
The building has little value unless bought by a non govt school for the same use. The land has value but you need to demolish the school and that is what in most cases the debt was incurred.
Interesting the examples you use to prove I'm wrong are assets that future sum of cash flow analysis can be used to create a valuation. you don't list prisons, or courthouses or non toll roads
Thank you for proving my point
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The building has little value unless bought by a non govt school for the same use. The land has value but you need to demolish the school and that is what in most cases the debt was incurred.
Interesting the examples you use to prove I'm wrong are assets that future sum of cash flow analysis can be used to create a valuation. you don't list prisons, or courthouses or non toll roads
Thank you for proving my point
Some city streets on the MU campus have been eliminated for new construction.
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Living in Illinois can be affordable in the right place. Working? More iffy.
Take Cook County with everything built out, especially on the edges. Cook County essentially has a Steve Forbes' Consumption (VAT) Tax. Property taxes are very low, especially knowing everything is built and water rights are settled. The Racetrack, Casino and the Cook side of O'Hare builds the surplus. Avoid the sales tax by shopping in the nearby county (and except cars). Property values are stable, schools great, access easy. In the Cook burbs, all the taxing authorities are running surpluses as all the infrastructure is built out.
My advice. Diversify and hide.
Yeah, about that.....
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170613/austin/chicago-homeowners-face-10-percent-average-property-tax-hike-analysis
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National debt adds $61,300 per citizen
Illinois debt adds $12,007 per citizen
So one time bill for a family of four to cover all debts in the city of Cary up to the national level is: ($3k+$61.3k+$12k)*4 so a total of $305,200. Just city and state(leaving county out even) would be $60,000 as a one time bill.
Oh, and totally unaccounted for is how cheap debt is right now, and this is especially critical for Illinois, the cost of servicing their massive amount of debt is going to go up over the next several years which will chew up a lot of any additional tax revenue they can generate by raising taxes....same thing at the federal level.
did you account for their rating...oh, about one click above junk, eyn'a?
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-dissolving-illinois-kass-met-20170620-column.html
(http://tu9srvbirvvtmtykd3d3lnryymltzy5jb200.g00.chicagotribune.com/g00/2_d3d3LmNoaWNhZ290cmlidW5lLmNvbQ%3D%3D_/TU9SRVBIRVVTMTYkaHR0cDovL3d3dy50cmJpbWcuY29tL2ltZy01OTQ5YmJmMi90dXJiaW5lL2N0LW1ldC1rYXNzLWlsbGlub2lzLWZhaWxlZC1zdGF0ZS1tYXAtMjAxNzA2MjAvNzUwLzc1MHg0MjI%2FaTEwYy5tYXJrLmltYWdlLnR5cGU%3D_$/$/$/$/$/$)
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-dissolving-illinois-kass-met-20170620-column.html
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Kinda doubt any of those states would want to take on Illinois.
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Kinda doubt any of those states would want to take on Illinois.
THIS ^^^
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i just don't understand why he thought it was appropriate to crack a joke comparing Illinois to Venezuela.
What the Venezuelan people are going through is absolutely horrendous, and it shouldn't be minimized by comparing it to a broke state.
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Kinda doubt any of those states would want to take on Illinois.
If they want to annex my town into Wisconsin, I'm in!
(https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1380367932ra/720458.gif)
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Kinda doubt any of those states would want to take on Illinois.
The leaders of every one of those states go to bed wishing they could have access to an economic engine like Chicago.
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The leaders of every one of those states go to bed wishing they could have access to an economic engine like Chicago.
If by great economic engine, you mean 800 hp on 5 mpg, then yes. Lots comes in, but it gets burned into the ether....
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The leaders of every one of those states go to bed wishing they could have access to an economic engine like Chicago.
What planet did you just land from?
Yes, Chicago is someplace special. But with the fleas comes a pretty mangy dog. Chicago brings with it a horrible social services problem, massive crime problems, corruption that would make a garden variety third world nation blush, economic dislocation and a portion of the state debt that would bankrupt any nearby state.
If the Chicago region alone (including Cook, Lake, DuPage, McHenry, Kane and Will Counties) was incorporated into Wisconsin, the newly absorbed Illinois residents in the region acquired by Wisconsin alone would be significant enough to take over the State of Wisconsin. That's something Kass did not consider.
I'm sure the good cheeseheads would appreciate us doing to Wisconsin what we did to Illinois!
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Some of you are remarkably shortsighted.
The Chicago region has more than twice the GDP than all of Wisconsin. In fact, it's larger than Wisconsin and Minnesota (or Indiana) combined.
It is home to 30 Fortune 500 companies (Wisconsin has eight) and two of the top 12-ranked universities in the country (UW is 44th).
It is an international transportation hub, a top 10 U.S. destination for both foreign and domestic tourists, and has a thriving and significant cultural scene. It has an educated workforce ... 34 percent of the region's adults hold at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 31 percent in Milwaukee, 30 percent in Indianapolis and 27 percent in Detroit ... and a public transportation system consistently ranked among the top 10 in the country.
Like all major cities, Chicago indeed has lots of problems (some of which are overblown ... did you know Milwaukee's violent crime rate is 67 percent higher than Chicago's?).
Most stem from mismanagement, not some inherent, incurable flaw.
And even with its problems, the city is a powerful economic engine that is the envy of its neighbors.
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Some of you are remarkably shortsighted.
The Chicago region has more than twice the GDP than all of Wisconsin. In fact, it's larger than Wisconsin and Minnesota (or Indiana) combined.
It is home to 30 Fortune 500 companies (Wisconsin has eight) and two of the top 12-ranked universities in the country (UW is 44th).
It is an international transportation hub, a top 10 U.S. destination for both foreign and domestic tourists, and has a thriving and significant cultural scene. It has an educated workforce ... 34 percent of the region's adults hold at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 31 percent in Milwaukee, 30 percent in Indianapolis and 27 percent in Detroit ... and a public transportation system consistently ranked among the top 10 in the country.
And is still broke as $hit
Like all major cities, Chicago indeed has lots of problems (some of which are overblown ... did you know Milwaukee's violent crime rate is 67 percent higher than Chicago's?).
You are 100% correct, some of the issues in Chicago get overblown in the larger picture of Chicago, which I don't totally understand. The problems are bad enough, not sure why people need to make them bigger than they are.
Most stem from mismanagement, not some inherent, incurable flaw.
And even with its problems, the city is a powerful economic engine that is the envy of its neighbors.
I'd ordinarily agree with you, but the history of Chicago mismanagement stretches at least 60 years...at this point it's institutionalized. Look at the crisis the state is facing right now, the politicians and their constituents can't save themselves.
Illinois generally, and Chicago area specifically has made an art of robbing Peter to pay Paul. All a merger with Wisconsin would do is give them an Andrew to rob from instead.
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So if Chicago were annexed into Wisconsin where would the Bears go. That would definitely be a deal breaker.
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So if Chicago were annexed into Wisconsin where would the Bears go. That would definitely be a deal breaker.
Madiganistan. That was the best part of Kass' thought experiment.
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If they want to annex my town into Wisconsin, I'm in!
(https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1380367932ra/720458.gif)
..and Chicago is not even the Capitol.
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i just don't understand why he thought it was appropriate to crack a joke comparing Illinois to Venezuela.
What the Venezuelan people are going through is absolutely horrendous, and it shouldn't be minimized by comparing it to a broke state.
yes it is "absolutely horrendous" but first off, venezuela is an example of what does not work. there are many here(sean penn, sammy jackson, et.al.) who think venezuela is the way to go and continue to defame our country. that is their right, but it is also part of the joke. if we sat here wringing our hands over all the "horrendous" situations, we could not joke about anything. third-it was a joke=for amusement only. ok, let's call it art and the author was merely exhibiting a creative expression, kinda like kathy griffin tries to do much too often. in today's divisive environment, we need something to laugh at as it has been shown to be therapeutic
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Some of you are remarkably shortsighted.
And a public transportation system consistently ranked among the top 10 in the country.
And even with its problems, the city is a powerful economic engine that is the envy of its neighbors.
Full disclosure -- I moved to Chicago in 1982 and have lived in or owned property in Illinois for all but one year since 1978. I moved to Illinois for most of the same reasons Pakuni described. It was a great place.
To think that Illinois' problems and the world's vision of Chicago is short-sighted is to ignore history. All of Chicago and most of Illinois north of Interstate 80 would have been Southern Wisconsin were it not have been for some legislative chicanery at the time the U.S. Congress carved up the Northwest Territory in the early 1800s.
Keep in mind that from the time of the Northwest Ordinance, Illinois has been the king of corruption. Al Capone did not take residence in Milwaukee. Hinky Dink and the crew did not serve as Aldermen in Cleveland.
Corruption is a ground-up problem in Chicago, which means the only way to solve it is the RICO statute. Mike Madigan wasn't a Minnesota product and for all I know, Illinois has sent more governors to federal penitentiaries that the rest of the Midwest combined.
And you fail to understand that if Northern Illinois was annexed per the Kass plan into Wisconsin, the population of the annexed portion of Illinois would be about 8.0 million to 9.0 million people. Do you really want Madigan and his slimy real estate cronies imposing their vision of Democracy on Wisconsin? Do you want the debt, tax-and-spend, public piggy bank mentality that comes with these people?
We're broke for a reason in Illinois and it is not because of our Fortune 500 economies and workforce. Heck, we're losing 30,000 people a year at a time when the US population is growing at 3 to 5 percent a year.
Short-sighted we are not. Jaundiced, frustrated, angry and disillusioned, I'll grant you. But short-sighted, NO!
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Some of you are remarkably shortsighted.
Actually, we recognize that the assets come with liabilities. Huge liabilities.
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Illinois could be 1st state with 'junk' credit due to budget
CHICAGO (AP) — Illinois is on track to become the first U.S. state to have its credit rating downgraded to "junk" status, which would deepen its multibillion-dollar deficit and cost taxpayers more for years to come.
S&P Global Ratings has warned the agency will likely lower Illinois' creditworthiness to below investment grade if feuding lawmakers fail to agree on a state budget for a third straight year, increasing the amount the state will have to pay to borrow money for things such as building roads or refinancing existing debt.
That should alarm everyone, not just those at the Capitol, said Brian Battle, director at Performance Trust Capital Partners, a Chicago-based investment firm.
"It isn't a political show," he said. "Everyone in Illinois has a stake in what's happening here. One day everybody will wake up and say 'What happened? Why are my taxes going up so much?'"
...
http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/f70471f764144b2fab526d39972d37b3/Article_2017-06-24-US--Illinois%20Budget-Credit%20Rating/id-c1c94128bed245b08f82761fb8efc116
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The thing about credit rating agencies is that they're a joke. Total scam. So much corruption. Granted, maybe the best we have. But still
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The thing about credit rating agencies is that they're a joke. Total scam. So much corruption. Granted, maybe the best we have. But still
absolutely correct! they should have had their collective arses kicked in more ways than one back in what? 2006/2007 when it was REVEALED, somewhat discreetly, how they bundled the junk and sold it as gold. we should have seen some big shots doing the perp walk
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absolutely correct! they should have had their collective arses kicked in more ways than one back in what? 2006/2007 when it was REVEALED, somewhat discreetly, how they bundled the junk and sold it as gold. we should have seen some big shots doing the perp walk
Do you honestly think they're wrong about Illinois?
That our state is not issuing junk credit? Or that our state's financial condition is representative of an investment grade credit?
Be honest now....
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Do you honestly think they're wrong about Illinois?
That our state is not issuing junk credit? Or that our state's financial condition is representative of an investment grade credit?
Be honest now....
no! i was merely agreeing with jesmu about the corruption with the credit rating agencies, citing the bundling of debt. it's no secret illinois credit rating is chit. it might even be worse than moody's, fitch et.al. claim it is. wouldn't be surprised if they're getting a wink-wink for pr purposes, but one can only escape the truth for so long
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Sorry late to the party.
And is still broke as $hit
Illinois generally, and Chicago area specifically has made an art of robbing Peter to pay Paul. All a merger with Wisconsin would do is give them an Andrew to rob from instead.
https://youtu.be/v/9hWcv6fGe9w
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Lessons learned from aftermath of 1/11/11 in Illinois...none.
Putting a band aid on a massive gun shot wound today does nothing to fix the real financial problems in Illinois. We'll be back in this same position sooner rather than later.
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Lessons learned from aftermath of 1/11/11 in Illinois...none.
Putting a band aid on a massive gun shot wound today does nothing to fix the real financial problems in Illinois. We'll be back in this same position sooner rather than later.
This budget deal hikes state individual income taxes without addressing the more serious issues. There is no plan to deal with the nearly $15 billion in unpaid bills. This is also likely to exacerbate the population decline over the long run (Illinois already lays claim to the largest population decline of any state in the country and Chicago lays claim to the largest population decline of any city in the country). Perhaps most importantly, this bill does not deal with the huge and growing pension problem.
Given this, is anyone surprised that Moodys still put the state on credit watch and Aetna is threatening to leave despite the likelihood of this budget passing?
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Moody’s Investor’s Service has thrown a bit of a curveball into efforts to pass the first state budget in three years, suggesting that Illinois still might hit junk level despite an income tax hike that’s part of the deal.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170705/BLOGS02/170709975/moodys-throws-curveball-into-state-budget-debate#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-breakingnews&utm_campaign=ccb-breakingnews-20170705
Aetna Better Health, which the state of Illinois owes at least $698 million, has had enough.
The subsidiary of the national insurance giant has given the state notice that it plans to terminate its Medicaid contracts, Aetna spokesman T.J. Crawford wrote today in an email.
Aetna Better Health, which the state of Illinois owes at least $698 million, has had enough. The subsidiary of the national insurance giant has given the state notice that it plans to terminate its Medicaid contracts, Aetna spokesman T.J. Crawford wrote today in an email. ... For Illinois Medicaid, the loss of a big insurer would mean a major shift. The roughly 235,000 low-income and disabled recipients Aetna covers would have to be moved to another health plan that might not have the same network of doctors and hospitals.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170706/NEWS03/170709961/aetna-threatens-to-exit-illinois-medicaid-over-budget-crisis#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-breakingnews&utm_campaign=ccb-breakingnews-20170706
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Congratulations to all involved. This took hard work and dedication to achieve this great victory.
ILLINOIS HAS HIGHEST OVERALL TAX BURDEN IN THE NATION
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-highest-overall-tax-burden-in-the-nation/
So bad is Illinois that it ranks 51st among all states!
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/
If you ...
* Annual income of $54,286 (mean third quintile U.S. income);
* Own a home valued at $178,600 (median U.S. home value);
* Own a car valued at $23,070 (the highest-selling car of 2016);
* Spends annually an amount equal to the spending of a household earning the median U.S. income.
You pay $8,100 dollars/year more in all taxes in Illinois than to live in Tennessee (Nashville).
I guess the privilege of living in Illinois makes it worth it.
Thank you, sir, may I have another?
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Congratulations to all involved. This took hard work and dedication to achieve this great victory.
ILLINOIS HAS HIGHEST OVERALL TAX BURDEN IN THE NATION
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-has-highest-overall-tax-burden-in-the-nation/
So bad is Illinois that it ranks 51st among all states!
https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/
If you ...
* Annual income of $54,286 (mean third quintile U.S. income);
* Own a home valued at $178,600 (median U.S. home value);
* Own a car valued at $23,070 (the highest-selling car of 2016);
* Spends annually an amount equal to the spending of a household earning the median U.S. income.
You pay $8,100 dollars/year more in all taxes in Illinois than to live in Tennessee (Nashville).
I guess the privilege of living in Illinois makes it worth it.
Thank you, sir, may I have another?
I do believe you're reading some of these numbers incorrectly.
According to your source here, the annual state and local taxes on a median state household in Illinois is $8,162. In Tennessee, it's $3,566.
So where are you getting the "$8,100 more" in Illinois than Tennessee? My math tells me it's closer to $4,600. But maybe you're adding in factors I'm not aware of?
Also, fwiw, the median household income in the Chicago area is $51,046, compared to $44,223 in Nashville. So, while you're paying more in taxes, you're also in an environment in which you're apt to earn more.
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I do believe you're reading some of these numbers incorrectly.
According to your source here, the annual state and local taxes on a median state household in Illinois is $8,162. In Tennessee, it's $3,566.
So where are you getting the "$8,100 more" in Illinois than Tennessee? My math tells me it's closer to $4,600. But maybe you're adding in factors I'm not aware of?
Also, fwiw, the median household income in the Chicago area is $51,046, compared to $44,223 in Nashville. So, while you're paying more in taxes, you're also in an environment in which you're apt to earn more.
As my math teachers in Tennessee used to say, "Please show your work".
And your comparison of median incomes, even with your "corrected" math, would mean that the incremental tax rate would be 67% in order to be apples to apples. Seems fair.
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As my math teachers in Tennessee used to say, "Please show your work".
Well, I'm relying accuracy of Heisy's sources here (risky, I know).
But, according to his sources the annual state and local taxes on a median state household in Illinois is $8,162. In Tennessee, it's $3,566.
My work:
8,162
- 3,566
4,596 (not 8,100)
And your comparison of median incomes, even with your "corrected" math, would mean that the incremental tax rate would be 67% in order to be apples to apples. Seems fair.
Um, show your work?
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According to this article New Jersey, my home state, is in worse shape than Illinois, go figure.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2017-07-11/new-jersey-least-fiscally-sound-state-in-us