MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: CAGASS24 on May 25, 2017, 09:48:20 PM
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Presenting the eastern conference trophy to the cavs tonight / MU power!!!
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Why has MU not honored him with a jersey retirement?
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Probably because he left mid-season and never graduated. But they broke that precedent when they retired Wade's so I think they should do it for him as well.
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What number was Chones?
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If freshmen couldn't play back then didn't he only play a year and a half for us? Seems a little short to warrant a jersey retiring.
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If freshmen couldn't play back then didn't he only play a year and a half for us? Seems a little short to warrant a jersey retiring.
What number was Chones?
#22 Jim Chones played almost two full seasons (so a few games short of DWade). I sincerely believe that he would have led Marquette to the Final Four in 1972. To accomplish that we would have needed to defeat both Kentucky (who we actually lost to) and Florida State to win the regional. Some have argued that MU was a national championship contender with Chones. All I know is that the war in the national championship game between he and Bill Walton would have been epic. It was a different era back then and not to take away from any great players of today but basketball goes back a long way and every era includes superstars, those two included.
Would I retire his jersey? Yes. Remember that he asked McGuire what to do and when Al saw his family's empty refrigerator he advised him to go. Here's one other thought. Chones was probably a better college player than Lucas. And that's saying a lot.
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No, no, no, no, no!
I have no problem with Jim leaving early and I appreciate just how good he was. I'm glad we had a coach who did the right life thing and helped him leave. But you do not retire the number of a someone who leaves in the middle of a season. Yes Wade only played half a season more but if Dwyane went pro after the Wake Forest game would you have retired his number? Retired numbers are for achievements, not for "what ifs".
These are not participation trophies, getting your number retired should be the greatest honor a team can bestow on someone (unless you're Brute Force, then it just becomes a way for MU to mind-f##k you).
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#22 Jim Chones played almost two full seasons (so a few games short of DWade). I sincerely believe that he would have led Marquette to the Final Four in 1972. To accomplish that we would have needed to defeat both Kentucky (who we actually lost to) and Florida State to win the regional. Some have argued that MU was a national championship contender with Chones. All I know is that the war in the national championship game between he and Bill Walton would have been epic. It was a different era back then and not to take away from any great players of today but basketball goes back a long way and every era includes superstars, those two included.
Would I retire his jersey? Yes. Remember that he asked McGuire what to do and when Al saw his family's empty refrigerator he advised him to go. Here's one other thought. Chones was probably a better college player than Lucas. And that's saying a lot.
Not diminishing what he did or that he was great. Just seems like 1.5 seasons is a bit light for retirement. Maybe if in his full one we had a FF I could see it like Wade but there's lots of great players and only the ones who have brought us success in our three ff should be retired in my opinion.
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Probably because he left mid-season and never graduated. But they broke that precedent when they retired Wade's so I think they should do it for him as well.
Per the interview and article below the degree comment is N/A. Seems like something MU should correct.
http://www.scout.com/college/marquette/story/545125-celebrating-alumni-jim-chones (http://www.scout.com/college/marquette/story/545125-celebrating-alumni-jim-chones)
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-02-05-choneses_x.htm (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-02-05-choneses_x.htm)
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#22 Jim Chones played almost two full seasons (so a few games short of DWade). I sincerely believe that he would have led Marquette to the Final Four in 1972. To accomplish that we would have needed to defeat both Kentucky (who we actually lost to) and Florida State to win the regional. Some have argued that MU was a national championship contender with Chones. All I know is that the war in the national championship game between he and Bill Walton would have been epic. It was a different era back then and not to take away from any great players of today but basketball goes back a long way and every era includes superstars, those two included.
Would I retire his jersey? Yes. Remember that he asked McGuire what to do and when Al saw his family's empty refrigerator he advised him to go. Here's one other thought. Chones was probably a better college player than Lucas. And that's saying a lot.
Thanks. So who gets their 22 retired first: Chones or McNeal? Do they join Ellis and Rivers to become the second duo to have their number retired?
Marquette went 50-1 with Chones. I'd have no problem if his number is retired. But I also see the point about him leaving early and not quite meeting the threshold for number retirement.
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Per the interview and article below the degree comment is N/A. Seems like something MU should correct.
http://www.scout.com/college/marquette/story/545125-celebrating-alumni-jim-chones (http://www.scout.com/college/marquette/story/545125-celebrating-alumni-jim-chones)
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-02-05-choneses_x.htm (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2004-02-05-choneses_x.htm)
It seems to me that Jim was way more successful off the court than on. Retire his number and it"s time that MU embrace its mission statement and "be the difference" as Jim is.
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I stood next ta #22 in the Varsity lobby in August of 1969 during freshman week. He was wearin' a green Michigan St. shell windbreaker. Skinny, tall dude from Racine who matured to be da Warriors' first aircraft carrier, a dominant college playa, and All-American. I, for one, believe we woulda beaten da Bruins, had we met. Da younguns, here, can't possibly understand just how talented and dominant some of Al's teams were. Later, got ta know Jimmy a bit from our time in John Pick's english class. Da pressure on deez kids to perform, on and off da court, is immense. Particularly, when all the shekels are factored in, hey?
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Has any NCAA coach - with a real shot at a Final Four/National Championship - ever encouraged their star player to leave school early, before or since? It's almost mind-boggling to think about, with how high the stakes are for these coaches today.
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John Calipari
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Touché. But they don't leave in the middle of the season.
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Not diminishing what he did or that he was great. Just seems like 1.5 seasons is a bit light for retirement. Maybe if in his full one we had a FF I could see it like Wade but there's lots of great players and only the ones who have brought us success in our three ff should be retired in my opinion.
Your point is valid. Let's put it this way. IF (and it'll never be even considered so this is a pure hypothetical) they were ever to consider anything for any 'one and done', then a very loud chorus for Jim should be initiated by all of us here on Scoop.
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4ever
Agreed on beating the Bruins. Jimmy and that team were very, very special. Talented and dominant describes a decade of ball at MU.
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Here's one thing you young guys might not understand. And I know we've had this discussion before but I'm too lazy to go find the thread. Chones is right near the very top in terms of being the most dominant player that ever put on a Marquette uniform. A couple years ago we did that Top 5 all-time thread. He's right there. The only guy from this century in the same sentence is DWade. Not Jimmy, Jae, Jerel, Wes or anyone else. That's how great he was, especially in college.
Again, I'm not arguing that we should necessarily retire his jersey. I personally would but understand why others wouldn't. But I do want you guys to appreciate that as I recall the timing of the ABA draft (then in competition with the NBA) was such that Chones didn't screw over Marquette. He left with Al's blessing as one of the very first 'hardship' cases. Also understand that his family was welfare poor, like no food poor.
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Has any NCAA coach - with a real shot at a Final Four/National Championship - ever encouraged their star player to leave school early, before or since? It's almost mind-boggling to think about, with how high the stakes are for these coaches today.
Leave school early BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED to the detriment of his own National Championship aspirations. Al knew that some things were more important than basketball. Stuff that's just unimaginable today. But is was the late 60's/early 70's and we're blessed that he had vision well beyond the cultural limitations of the day.
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Leave school early BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED to the detriment of his own National Championship aspirations. Al knew that some things were more important than basketball. Stuff that's just unimaginable today. But is was the late 60's/early 70's and we're blessed that he had vision well beyond the cultural limitations of the day.
Exactly, I should have been more clear about that.
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Glow, you don't need to tell me how good Jimmy was at MU. I am acutely aware that he may have been the best ever.
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pretty dominant numbers. 952 points (19.0) and 583 rebounds (11.7) in 50 games.
And like mentioned earlier, the only loss was in the NCAA's to Ohio State.
Points per game rank third behind Thompson (20.4) and Wade (19.7)
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What numbers are retired? Favor 22, 20 Lucas and 14 Dean "the dream".
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Found the answer to my question and 22 belongs with them
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Thanks. So who gets their 22 retired first: Chones or McNeal? Do they join Ellis and Rivers to become the second duo to have their number retired?
Marquette went 50-1 with Chones. I'd have no problem if his number is retired. But I also see the point about him leaving early and not quite meeting the threshold for number retirement.
I don't think McNeal's should be retired - certainly not before Chones. But if Chones is retired, you might as well put McNeal's name up there.
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I don't think McNeal's should be retired - certainly not before Chones. But if Chones is retired, you might as well put McNeal's name up there.
I agree with Sultan. Larry was a critical element in that early 70s success but not nearly the player Jim was.
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I agree with Sultan. Larry was a critical element in that early 70s success but not nearly the player Jim was.
Jerel McNeal
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Senior moments are a bitch, ai na?
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Chones, nor McNeal, will get retired unless we get another retirement happy coach in office.
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Yes, Larry McNeil wore number 31 and I have always said was the most under appreciated Warrior.
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Larry McNeil was a very, very nice player, but nowhere near the player of Chones, Luke or Bo. Jarel McNeal was a nice player and a long list of guards he does not come close to matching.
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i may have forgotten a lot of things over time, but the jimmy chones thing was not one of them. i was 8 years old and i remember crying when he left MU. i cried again when i heard how al gave him his blessings. al put his coaching aspirations aside to give this guy and his family a chance to live a better life. al's stuff would, as we all know, would come.
how powerful is that? do the right thing...and then do the next right thing...good things will happen. with posts such as these keeping the jimmy chones legacy alive, who needs a jersey hanging from the beams. talking about him almost 50 years later is a testament to his greatness
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I think the thing holding Chones back from being retired is postseason accomplishments. He only played in one NCAA tournament where he won one game, lost the next, and then won the consolation game afterwards. I think there is no doubt the Chones is easily one of the top 5, probably top 3, Warriors to ever play basketball. But does his postseason record warrant a number retirement? Like somebody else said, would Wade's number have been retired if he went pro before the Final Four run? But at the same time, do you really want to punish a guy for making the decision to help his family? Especially after Al himself encouraged him to go? Glad I'm not in charge of these decisions.
I don't think McNeal's should be retired - certainly not before Chones. But if Chones is retired, you might as well put McNeal's name up there.
I have wondered if they do decide to retire McNeal's (don't think they will) if they just go ahead and put Chones up there, or vice versa.
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I think the thing holding Chones back from being retired is postseason accomplishments. He only played in one NCAA tournament where he won one game, lost the next, and then won the consolation game afterwards. I think there is no doubt the Chones is easily one of the top 5, probably top 3, Warriors to ever play basketball. But does his postseason record warrant a number retirement?
Chones post season accomplishments are the same as Doc Rivers'.
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Chones post season accomplishments are the same as Doc Rivers'.
Whose jersey shouldn't be retired...
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NM
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Larry McNeil was a very, very nice player, but nowhere near the player of Chones, Luke or Bo. Jarel McNeal was a nice player and a long list of guards he does not come close to matching.
Goose has it right. Now what I don't have a good handle on out of memory is Tatum vs. McNeil. I think my lean would be Earl.
So with all this discussion, I think I feel pretty strongly that Chones is the most banner worthy Warrior that doesn't currently have one. If one of the scoop pups start talking about Jerel or even Jimmy, I'd say 'get in line'. Now I will say that 4 years and a degree is worth something in the pecking order. Jim's situation was quite unique.
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Whose jersey shouldn't be retired...
Maybe. But you must recall there was a time when many believed the era of Marquette basketball was officially over. And you must admit that he is perhaps our greatest national ambassador. Glenn is the epitome of what we'd like every #mubb alum to aspire to, both on and off the court.
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Should Earl Tatum be retired? I have no feel for him. I've heard all about Lucas / Chones / Dean + Bo & Butch but Tatum is in a the middle of those guys and his name didn't resonate until TC retired him.
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Should Earl Tatum be retired? I have no feel for him. I've heard all about Lucas / Chones / Dean + Bo & Butch but Tatum is in a the middle of those guys and his name didn't resonate until TC retired him.
Idk Lens. He was a helluva player.
Better than MU's decision to retire #11 over the moon mission. (Can we undo that? Look, I love space as much as anyone but cripes. ::))
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Whose jersey shouldn't be retired...
I think it should be.
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Larry McNeil was a very, very nice player, but nowhere near the player of Chones, Luke or Bo. Jarel McNeal was a nice player and a long list of guards he does not come close to matching.
Right on both counts.
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Jim Chones played 51 games for Marquette. We won 50 of them, and were robbed by the refs in the one we lost. Jerel McNeal is not in his league. Neither was Larry McNeill. As a college player, neither was Doc Rivers.
Al called Earl Tatum "the black Jerry West", and yes, Lens, he was that good. They used to have a "made for TV" one on one tournament for NBA players back in the day. Earl won the thing one year.
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I don't expect many people to remember another No. 15. Had a career
total of 1309 pts and 978 rebounds in 3 seasons and scored 37 points
in MU's first NCAA Tourney Game. His Name is Terry Rand, 6-9 center.
1954-55 team was 24-3 and had a 22 game winning streak. He was third
team All-America. Averaged 20.3 and 13.1 rebounds in 1955-56. Was
from Green Bay East. Bill Russell called him the best college center he
played against when MU lost to San Francisco by 7. He should be
recognized. Another is 34 Travis Diener and 35 Damon Key.
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McNeal can't carry Chones' jockstrap. I'm in da retire #22 for the stud from Racine.
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McNeal can't carry Chones' jockstrap. I'm in da retire #22 for the stud from Racine.
i would retire his jersey as well. Al kind of steered Jimmy's decision.
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With the possible exception of DWade, Jim Chones was the best ever. All you have to do is look at what happened on the Saturday after he left, We were like 21-0 before he left. The Saturday night after a still very good Marquette team played Detroit and lost 70-49. First loss of the season.
I was devastated by his turning pro but as I understood why, I gained a greater respect for what Marquette is about. I agree with glow -- had he stayed the battle between UCLA and Marquette would have been epic. Everything about the game that never was would have been on par with Bird and Magic of n 1979.
Chones left because he had a family to feed and care for. If we really are men and women for their others, we celebrate Jim Chones.
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I don't expect many people to remember another No. 15. Had a career
total of 1309 pts and 978 rebounds in 3 seasons and scored 37 points
in MU's first NCAA Tourney Game. His Name is Terry Rand, 6-9 center.
1954-55 team was 24-3 and had a 22 game winning streak. He was third
team All-America. Averaged 20.3 and 13.1 rebounds in 1955-56. Was
from Green Bay East. Bill Russell called him the best college center he
played against when MU lost to San Francisco by 7. He should be
recognized. Another is 34 Travis Diener and 35 Damon Key.
My dad said Rand was great. He was also a huge fan of the Wittberger brothers. I have to assume they were playing in the Arena by the mid 50s.
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Should Earl Tatum be retired? I have no feel for him. I've heard all about Lucas / Chones / Dean + Bo & Butch but Tatum is in a the middle of those guys and his name didn't resonate until TC retired him.
earl tatum's number is retired-#43
Retired numbers[edit]
The following numbers have been retired by Marquette:
Retired Players and Coaches
Dwyane
Wade
3
2001-03
Apollo 11
Crew
11
Dean
Meminger
14
1968-71
Butch
Lee
15
1974-78
Maurice
Lucas
20
1972-74
George
Thompson
24
1966-69
Doc
Rivers
31
1980-83
Bo
Ellis
31
1973-77
Bob
Weingart
38
Trainer
Earl
Tatum
43
1972-76
Don
Kojis
44
1958-61
Al
McGuire
71
Head Coach
sorry-i read your post wrong. i thought you were asking if it was retired-carry on
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Should Earl Tatum be retired? I have no feel for him. I've heard all about Lucas / Chones / Dean + Bo & Butch but Tatum is in a the middle of those guys and his name didn't resonate until TC retired him.
No feel for Tatum. That's like having no feel for Jimmy Butler.
The man was incredible. One guy I wished left with an NCAA title.
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No feel for Tatum. That's like having no feel for Jimmy Butler.
The man was incredible. One guy I wished left with an NCAA title.
Agree - loved Earl. He likely would have had at least a Final Four if the tournament didn't put the two best teams in the same region back then. Indiana and MU were the clear #1 and #2 teams in the country in '76, but they played in the Mideast Regional Final In Baton Rouge. Bummer.
Back to Chones, he was the most dominant player in MU history and led the team to a 50-1 record. I have a hard time holding his early departure against him, since Al was the one who told him to go.
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I love Earl Tatum but his number should not have been retired. Back to Chones, 1000% his number should be retired and should have been decades ago.
Wade is the best talent ever to play for MU and second place is open to a lot of discussion. For the young guys, you were not born when second best played at MU. Depending on your taste on type of player you like, there is a very strong argument Chones is second best in school history. He is not number two to me but difficult to argue he is not.
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Agree - loved Earl. He likely would have had at least a Final Four if the tournament didn't put the two best teams in the same region back then. Indiana and MU were the clear #1 and #2 teams in the country in '76, but they played in the Mideast Regional Final In Baton Rouge. Bummer.
Earl did start for the 1974 NCAA championship runnerup.
Tatum was the best player for the loaded 1976 team, the best team I personally remember seeing at MU since I don't think I saw the Meminger-Chones team in 1970-71 on TV.
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I was a freshman in 70-71 and through the dumb luck of the student ticket lottery back then,drew a seat about two rows up from the end of MU bench, behind guys like Dave Delsman. The Meminger-Chones & company team was...well, I don't recall anything so smooth, effective,and beautiful to watch. Al would still get mad when they did not play defense the way he wanted it and would routinely come to the end of bench and kick a chair--once with Delsman still sitting in it! Folks forget that Al loved in-your-face defense and opposing teams could not score once they got close to big Jim the paint. Chones played great defense along with his mid-range jumper and put backs. Though my tickets were not so good in 71-72, that team was deserving of the #1 ranking it held briefly before Chones left toward the end of season. Maurice Lucas was a freshman that year and by rule back then could not play. But one wonders how Lucas may have filled in for him or what a front line of Chones, Lucas, and Larry McNeill might have achieved the following year. And Bo Ellis would have been a freshman.
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No feel for Tatum. That's like having no feel for Jimmy Butler.
The man was incredible. One guy I wished left with an NCAA title.
In my defense, I was 9 months old when he graduated. But I know how good that '76 team was. Seeding back then must have been a joke.
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In my defense, I was 9 months old when he graduated. But I know how good that '76 team was. Seeding back then must have been a joke.
I don't think seeding existed back then.
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I don't think seeding existed back then.
Correct. Seeding of sorts began in 1978 and evolved from there.
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I don't think McNeal's should be retired - certainly not before Chones. But if Chones is retired, you might as well put McNeal's name up there.
No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.
Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?
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No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.
Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?
I'm sure a lot of those 70s players were medicated as well
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No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.
Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?
I don't care how much medication he took.
And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.
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And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.
only because of the phantom charging calls on Meminger. That's the only game MU lost with him.
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only because of the phantom charging calls on Meminger. That's the only game MU lost with him.
Yep. Only game Dean ever fouled out of.
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I don't care how much medication he took.
And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.
And I'm not advocating Chones have his number retired. Didn't play long enough even if he didn't graduate. I don't think Wade should have had his retired until he (never) graduates.
Diener, Novak and Tony Mlller Andre the only ones who should be in the conversation for retirement and I doubt any will ever see their numbers in the rafters.
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I never saw Chones play for MU, as the earliest Marquette memory I have is of the loss to NC State in the 74 title game and he was long gone by then. I did see Chones play in the NBA, where he was a good player for mostly bad teams. (In his next-to-last full season, he did average 8 and 7 in the 1980 Finals for the champion Lakers.)
I will take the word of those a little older than I am who did see Chones play for MU and say he was one of our best 2 or 3 players ever. Y'all have no reason to fib. I'm guessing he was dominant. Given some of the numbers we have retired, I'd have no problem retiring #22. But it doesn't bother me that it isn't retired.
Anyway, here's something for folks to ponder ...
There was a lively thread on The Superbar about Christian McCaffrey opting out of Stanford's bowl game so he could concentrate on his impending pro career. Many thought he was a quitter, a traitor, whatever. Others defended his decision (I was in that camp). Publicly, he had the blessing of his coach. He ended up being the No. 8 overall draft pick and has signed a $17 million contract. His family has money, so he didn't "need" it, but Stanford's bowl game was the Sun Bowl - as meaningless as a game can be.
Chones left a Marquette team that many thought was the best in the country and the best in school history. He left when they were 21-0; without him, MU got creamed by Kentucky in the NCAA second round. His family was dirt poor and he "needed" the money. He ended up receiving a $1.5 million contract from the ABA's Nets, a ton of money at that time. He not only had the blessing of his coach ... McGuire actually told him to take the money. Still, the decision was controversial at the time; leaving early was relatively new, and nobody had done it during the middle of a season.
So, is "quitting" on a championship-caliber team just weeks before the NCAA tournament "worse" than leaving before a "meaningless" bowl game?
It's an interesting conversation. (To me, anyway.)
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I never saw Chones play for MU, as the earliest Marquette memory I have is of the loss to NC State in the 74 title game and he was long gone by then. I did see Chones play in the NBA, where he was a good player for mostly bad teams. (In his next-to-last full season, he did average 8 and 7 in the 1980 Finals for the champion Lakers.)
I will take the word of those a little older than I am who did see Chones play for MU and say he was one of our best 2 or 3 players ever. Y'all have no reason to fib. I'm guessing he was dominant. Given some of the numbers we have retired, I'd have no problem retiring #22. But it doesn't bother me that it isn't retired.
Anyway, here's something for folks to ponder ...
There was a lively thread on The Superbar about Christian McCaffrey opting out of Stanford's bowl game so he could concentrate on his impending pro career. Many thought he was a quitter, a traitor, whatever. Others defended his decision (I was in that camp). Publicly, he had the blessing of his coach. He ended up being the No. 8 overall draft pick and has signed a $17 million contract. His family has money, so he didn't "need" it, but Stanford's bowl game was the Sun Bowl - as meaningless as a game can be.
Chones left a Marquette team that many thought was the best in the country and the best in school history. He left when they were 21-0; without him, MU got creamed by Kentucky in the NCAA second round. His family was dirt poor and he "needed" the money. He ended up receiving a $1.5 million contract from the ABA's Nets, a ton of money at that time. He not only had the blessing of his coach ... McGuire actually told him to take the money. Still, the decision was controversial at the time; leaving early was relatively new, and nobody had done it during the middle of a season.
So, is "quitting" on a championship-caliber team just weeks before the NCAA tournament "worse" than leaving before a "meaningless" bowl game?
It's an interesting conversation. (To me, anyway.)
Just a different time with the ABA jousting with the NBA. Once again, Al McGuire was a big part of this.
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I'm in da camp of we all go ta college to obtain a skill ta earn a livin'. So, takin' da path of least resistance ta makin' dat livin' makes all da cents in da world ta me, Nads. Gotta admit, didn't always feel dat weigh. But, life's lessons show ya dat money talks and bullchit walks, ai na?
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Good discussion 82. Here's what I think a big difference might be.
McCaffrey opted out of the Sun Bowl in an effort to avoid potential injury. Chones left during the only available window when he announced for the ABA by signing his contract one week before their draft thereby causing the Nets to forfeit their 1st round pick. What the ABA was trying to do with its February draft was siphon off players from the established NBA and they had publicly announced a willingness to draft underclassmen. It was all out war between the two leagues with lots of anti-trust stuff going on in the Courts and Congress. And Chones was the monster big prize that year in a new escalation of that war.
I found a February 19, 1972 Chicago Tribune article that discussed the situation. Here's a link to that day's paper. The story appears on p. 149 of the microfilm. Crazy stuff.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1972/02/19/page/1/article/cage-war-on-again-as-aba-signs-jim-chones/index.html
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Except from the player's perspective, there really isn't a difference. Both left their teams early to better position themselves for their professional careers. Some on here labelled McC as a "quitter," but don't seem willing to apply those same labels to Chones (or Traci Carter.) Really what they did was no different.
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Except from the player's perspective, there really isn't a difference. Both left their teams early to better position themselves for their professional careers. Some on here labelled McC as a "quitter," but don't seem willing to apply those same labels to Chones (or Traci Carter.) Really what they did was no different.
Disagree Sultan. The Chones window would have closed for a year within a week. His decision to continue to play at MU would have absolutely disrupted the $1.5 million sitting on the table in front of him. The ABA draft was scheduled before the NCAA season ended ON PURPOSE. Something would have had to happen (an injury) to cost McCaffrey the money in his situation. And he could have potentially taken out some kind of insurance policy.
I'm not arguing for or against McCaffery's decision but they are in no way equivalent.
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Disagree Sultan. The Chones window would have closed for a year within a week. His decision to continue to play at MU would have absolutely disrupted the $1.5 million sitting on the table in front of him. The ABA draft was scheduled before the NCAA season ended ON PURPOSE. Something would have had to happen (an injury) to cost McCaffrey the money in his situation. And he could have potentially taken out some kind of insurance policy.
I'm not arguing for or against McCaffery's decision but they are in no way equivalent.
Yes the Chones situation was more complex, but both voluntarily left their teams mid season for what they felt were in their best interests professionally. I'm focusing more on the similarity of the actions they faced with their current team.
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Good discussion 82. Here's what I think a big difference might be.
McCaffrey opted out of the Sun Bowl in an effort to avoid potential injury. Chones left during the only available window when he announced for the ABA by signing his contract one week before their draft thereby causing the Nets to forfeit their 1st round pick. What the ABA was trying to do with its February draft was siphon off players from the established NBA and they had publicly announced a willingness to draft underclassmen. It was all out war between the two leagues with lots of anti-trust stuff going on in the Courts and Congress. And Chones was the monster big prize that year in a new escalation of that war.
I found a February 19, 1972 Chicago Tribune article that discussed the situation. Here's a link to that day's paper. The story appears on p. 149 of the microfilm. Crazy stuff.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1972/02/19/page/1/article/cage-war-on-again-as-aba-signs-jim-chones/index.html
thanks for sharing that - love this headline on that page "Karem has 53, Bucks Fall". At least they spelled it 'Kareem' in the article.
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Yes the Chones situation was more complex, but both voluntarily left their teams mid season for what they felt were in their best interests professionally. I'm focusing more on the similarity of the actions they faced with their current team.
No. Completely different. McCaffrey could have finished his season with his team and still been in the NFL draft - that is the NORM. Chones had to make a move at a specific time. VERY, VERY different.
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No. Completely different. McCaffrey could have finished his season with his team and still been in the NFL draft - that is the NORM. Chones had to make a move at a specific time. VERY, VERY different.
I have already acknowledged the situations were different.
But I'm not the one who said things like this, which seem to treat it much more black and white:
The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.
You also labelled McC an "unrighteous thief." Was Chones?
Also, would you have advocated the following wrt Chones?
Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion
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I have already acknowledged the situations were different.
But I'm not the one who said things like this, which seem to treat it much more black and white:
You also labelled McC an "unrighteous thief." Was Chones?
Also, would you have advocated the following wrt Chones?
McCaffrey should be in jail.
Chones' jersey should be retired.
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McCaffrey should be in jail.
Chones' jersey should be retired.
So instead of logic, you went with hyperbole.
Got it.
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Yes the Chones situation was more complex, but both voluntarily left their teams mid season for what they felt were in their best interests professionally. I'm focusing more on the similarity of the actions they faced with their current team.
Certainly true, but as JB said, Chones had one fleeting shot, take it or leave it, while the other deviated from a well established norm that apart from injury risk guaranteed the same monetary outcome.
Here's one thing I know would have happened. Had Al McGuire been McCaffrey's coach, he'd say 'Get your arse to practice kid.'
Okay, and JB just went over the top!
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Chones had a fleeting shot...AND his family would have continued to starve if he hadn't gone.
McCaffrey's family was doing just fine, and would have continued to do fine even if he blew his ACL in the bowl.
Not just the individual's career, but the family's bare bones survival. Kinda different, no?
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I've enjoyed the conversation.
I say both were absolutely right to go when they did. I doubt either felt like a "quitter."
I went to college to pursue a professional career in my chosen field, which was journalism. If the NY Times or Sports Illustrated had offered me a good job in February of my senior year, I wouldn't have said, "I'd take it, but I'm getting a scholarship to be on staff at the Marquette Tribune, and I'd feel like a quitter if I left ... so thanks, but no thanks."
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Would the NBA not have taken Chones at the end of the year?
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The moral of the story is, it's perfectly fine for an athlete to place his/her own interests ahead of his/her team's, so long as a bunch of doofuses on the internet (who never have to deal with the consequences of your decision) think your reasoning is solid.
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Would the NBA not have taken Chones at the end of the year?
I don't know the answer to that bags. I believe, but am not certain, that the NBA was strongly resisting the early entrant push initiated by the ABA. There was lots of anti-trust stuff going on. Remember that Chones was only the second player to go 'hardship'. It was really a big deal. Look at the coverage the Tribune gave it.
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I don't know the answer to that bags. I believe, but am not certain, that the NBA was strongly resisting the early entrant push initiated by the ABA. There was lots of anti-trust stuff going on. Remember that Chones was only the second player to go 'hardship'. It was really a big deal. Look at the coverage the Tribune gave it.
The Spencer Haywood ruling, which paved the way for early entrants, came in March 1971.
Chones left MU in February 1972.
So he'd have been able to enter the NBA had he wanted to stay at Marquette. He left because the ABA was offering him a big pot of money. Which is OK.
I think, though, if we're going to compare Chones and McCaffery, let's remember that Chones left his team at a time when there were plenty of meaningful games to be played, and a possible championship to be won.
McCaffery bailed on a meaningless bowl game.
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Pakuni 2prison
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The Spencer Haywood ruling, which paved the way for early entrants, came in March 1971.
Chones left MU in February 1972.
So he'd have been able to enter the NBA had he wanted to stay at Marquette. He left because the ABA was offering him a big pot of money. Which is OK.
I think, though, if we're going to compare Chones and McCaffery, let's remember that Chones left his team at a time when there were plenty of meaningful games to be played, and a possible championship to be won.
McCaffery bailed on a meaningless bowl game.
See now this may just be me, but given that there was two months left in the season I personally would have fulfilled that season with the team and then gone to the NBA. If he was as good as y'all say then he certainly would've been drafted
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See now this may just be me, but given that there was two months left in the season I personally would have fulfilled that season with the team and then gone to the NBA. If he was as good as y'all say then he certainly would've been drafted
Actually, it was only 4 or 5 regular season games.
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See now this may just be me, but given that there was two months left in the season I personally would have fulfilled that season with the team and then gone to the NBA. If he was as good as y'all say then he certainly would've been drafted
He would have been drafted, but given the novelty of early entrants back then, it isn't certain he would have been chosen that season. Underclassmen simply weren't on NBA teams' radar screens. WAY different from how things work today. And remember - his family's fridge was empty. Try convincing them to forego getting certain food now, to a good possibility of food a few months later.
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The Spencer Haywood ruling, which paved the way for early entrants, came in March 1971.
Chones left MU in February 1972.
So he'd have been able to enter the NBA had he wanted to stay at Marquette. He left because the ABA was offering him a big pot of money. Which is OK.
I believe this is true, Pakuni. Back then, in the wake of the Haywood ruling, an underclassman had to prove he had financial "hardship," which Chones certainly could have done. He probably would have been drafted a couple of months after the Marquette season, and started receiving money shortly thereafter.
I think, though, if we're going to compare Chones and McCaffery, let's remember that Chones left his team at a time when there were plenty of meaningful games to be played, and a possible championship to be won.
McCaffery bailed on a meaningless bowl game.
This, too, is true. Which is why I think this is interesting. Most MU types can't look at this objectively. They like Chones and want to defend his stance while they either have no opinion on McCaffrey or, for some illogical reason, they dislike him. But the fact is that Chones quit on a team that could have won it all; McCaffrey quit on a team that could have won the Sun Bowl (and, indeed, did just that without him).
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See now this may just be me, but given that there was two months left in the season I personally would have fulfilled that season with the team and then gone to the NBA. If he was as good as y'all say then he certainly would've been drafted
Bags, respectfully you're using your 21st century mindset back in 1970. Nothing was certain except the stack of cash on the table.
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See now this may just be me, but given that there was two months left in the season I personally would have fulfilled that season with the team and then gone to the NBA. If he was as good as y'all say then he certainly would've been drafted
Easy for any of us to say.....
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Chones had a fleeting shot...AND his family would have continued to starve if he hadn't gone.
McCaffrey's family was doing just fine, and would have continued to do fine even if he blew his ACL in the bowl.
Not just the individual's career, but the family's bare bones survival. Kinda different, no?
You're exaggerating. And no I don't view it any different.
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Al made the right choice. Chones made the right choice. Mc made the right choice for himself.
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You're exaggerating. And no I don't view it any different.
What am I exaggerating?
I wasn't the one who started the story about Al looking into Chones' refrigerator and telling him to leave. If you think it's an exaggeration, take it up with Hologram Al.
And as for underclassmen being viewed completely differently in the early '70s, you obviously aren't familiar with how much things have changed if you think I'm exaggerating that. Bill Walton had an even more successful career at UCLA than Chones did...and he stayed until his eligibility was up after the '74 season, two years after Chones left. Underclassmen just weren't on the NBA's radar.
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What am I exaggerating?
I wasn't the one who started the story about Al looking into Chones' refrigerator and telling him to leave. If you think it's an exaggeration, take it up with Hologram Al.
And as for underclassmen being viewed completely differently in the early '70s, you obviously aren't familiar with how much things have changed if you think I'm exaggerating that. Bill Walton had an even more successful career at UCLA than Chones did...and he stayed until his eligibility was up after the '74 season, two years after Chones left. Underclassmen just weren't on the NBA's radar.
His family would have survived. You're exaggerating.
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His family would have survived. You're exaggerating.
You're speculating.
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Chones family was poor. Very sad story. The refrigerator quote is true. ABA forced this with draft during season. Chones had first $1 million contract. ABA wanted first pick to sign and dangled all that money in front of Chones. Al acted as his agent. As sad as MU fans were that he was leaving, everyone understood it was an obvious choice.
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Chones family was poor. Very sad story. The refrigerator quote is true. ABA forced this with draft during season. Chones had first $1 million contract. ABA wanted first pick to sign and dangled all that money in front of Chones. Al acted as his agent. As sad as MU fans were that he was leaving, everyone understood it was an obvious choice.
https://www.facebook.com/AlMcGuiresWarriors/posts/839602582818893:0
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There were a couple of factors that entered into the Mr. Chones decision, as I understand it. First, the ABA and the NBA were in a salary war and competing for the best talent. The ABA offer was on the table at the moment Mr. Chones signed. There was no guarantee it would be there at year end -- those offers I believe had time fuses on them.
Secondly, his own coach was telling him to take the offer. Al more than anyone knew the situation and he was pushing Mr. Chones to go pro. Al knew that we were good but not THAT good without Mr. Chones at center. Yet he put the needs of Mr. Chones' family ahead of those of Marquette University.
If we fast forward several decades, Henry Ellenson had a similar decision. Admittedly, it was at the end of the season, but he could leave our team in the lurch last year and go pro or he could stick around as we would have been probably Top 20 and maybe Top 10 last year. All I heard on this board was he would be ridiculous not to take the money -- and his family was much better off than the Chones family was.
Look, anyone alive in 1971-1972 who was following Marquette basketball knew how devastating Mr. Chones' decision was. We knew we just lost a legitimate shot at a national championship. Many of us were heartbroken as we knew opportunities like what Marquette had that year rarely come along (except, perhaps, in Westwood). We also knew that with Maurice Lucas about to join the team, we had the potential to really dethrone UCLA.
Strange as it may sound on this board, there are some things more important than basketball. Most of us come from middle class families and have never experienced worrying about where our next meal is coming from. We tend to be more selfish and look at things from our vantage point -- wanting an MU National Championship -- and not from Mr. Chones' standpoint.
Now, had the NCAA allowed a reasonable stipend or some sort of pay..........
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I don't think anyone is questioning Chones' decision.
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Would the NBA not have taken Chones at the end of the year?
He signed with the ABA team, who had the guaranteed number 1 pick before the draft. They offered Chones big money to sign before both drafts, so they did not get into a war with which ever NBA team that drafted him. ABA league's fight for respectability led the league doing things behind the scenes. They were perfectly willing to sign Chones and keep it quite so Chones could keep playing. McGuire was not willing to break the rules and told Chones he could no longer play if he signed, but also told him to take the deal. McGuire was not willing to risk Chones not receiving guaranteed money and he also was not willing to risk his reputation on getting caught violating NCAA rules. I blame the ABA for Chones leaving early.
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Just for the record, I absolutely don't blame Chones for bolting and I would have done so myself.
All I was throwing out there for discussion was that Chones DID quit on a potential NCAA championship team. I don't think he was wrong to do so. Nor do I think McCaffrey was "wrong" to "quit" on a Sun Bowl team or Henry was "wrong" to "quit" on a potential top-20 MU team.
College kids with legitimate professional aspirations need to take care of No. 1. That's why they go to college - to better themselves.
Now don't get me started about coaches who talk "loyalty" 24/7 and then bolt in the middle of a contract.
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Just for the record, I absolutely don't blame Chones for bolting and I would have done so myself.
All I was throwing out there for discussion was that Chones DID quit on a potential NCAA championship team. I don't think he was wrong to do so. Nor do I think McCaffrey was "wrong" to "quit" on a Sun Bowl team or Henry was "wrong" to "quit" on a potential top-20 MU team.
College kids with legitimate professional aspirations need to take care of No. 1. That's why they go to college - to better themselves.
Now don't get me started about coaches who talk "loyalty" 24/7 and then bolt in the middle of a contract.
I'm noticing vander isn't on the no fault list
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I'm noticing vander isn't on the no fault list
Vander didn't leave mid-season so I'm not sure how it is relevant to this discussion.
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Vander didn't leave mid-season so I'm not sure how it is relevant to this discussion.
Neither did Henry but he listed him
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Granted. I guess he didn't mean his list to be exhaustive. Just making the point.
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Just for the record, I absolutely don't blame Chones for bolting and I would have done so myself.
All I was throwing out there for discussion was that Chones DID quit on a potential NCAA championship team. I don't think he was wrong to do so. Nor do I think McCaffrey was "wrong" to "quit" on a Sun Bowl team or Henry was "wrong" to "quit" on a potential top-20 MU team.
College kids with legitimate professional aspirations need to take care of No. 1. That's why they go to college - to better themselves.
Now don't get me started about coaches who talk "loyalty" 24/7 and then bolt in the middle of a contract.
Your views on college athletics have clouded your views on this. These three player situations are not analogous and the coaching comment has zero do with it, either.
McCaffrey could have done both - played with his team while getting ready for the draft and he reported had a $5 million payout coming if he slipped past #40 in the draft.
Chones was in a unique situation and there are compelling reasons as to why the timing worked out as it did.
Henry completed his season and did something very common and something that was expected by many prior to his arrival on campus.
If McCaffrey had done what Henry and so many basketball and football players do, no issue. He quit during the season even though he didn't have to in order to be drafted and play in the NFL. ARREST HIM!
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All I was throwing out there for discussion was that Chones DID quit on a potential NCAA championship team.
MU, I understand what you are trying to say but your phrase has so many connotative meanings that your journalism professors would have gone nuts.
For the record, Mr. Chones did not quit on our team. If you think he did, then you better state that Al McGuire quit on the team too because it was Coach McGuire that urged Mr. Chones to turn pro.
Mr. Chones accepted the advice of the one university employee he trusted the most -- Coach McGuire. Dean Smith had the same discussion after Michael Jordan's junior year. Mr. Jordan wanted to come back but Mr. Smith told Mr. Jordan, "Chicago needs a hero." And we got one.
Mr. Chones should have his number in the rafters as a player who really was someone special. I wished he had been with us for three years and re-discussing this opened some very sore wounds, but as an adult, businessman and human being, I fully understand why Mr. Chones left when he did. Oh, and by the way, he did get his degree.
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Mr. Chones accepted the advice of the one university employee he trusted the most -- Coach McGuire. Dean Smith had the same discussion after Michael Jordan's junior year. Mr. Jordan wanted to come back but Mr. Smith told Mr. Jordan, "Chicago needs a hero." And we got one.
How did Dean Smith know that Jordan would drop to pick #3?
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MU, I understand what you are trying to say but your phrase has so many connotative meanings that your journalism professors would have gone nuts.
For the record, Mr. Chones did not quit on our team. If you think he did, then you better state that Al McGuire quit on the team too because it was Coach McGuire that urged Mr. Chones to turn pro.
Mr. Chones accepted the advice of the one university employee he trusted the most -- Coach McGuire. Dean Smith had the same discussion after Michael Jordan's junior year. Mr. Jordan wanted to come back but Mr. Smith told Mr. Jordan, "Chicago needs a hero." And we got one.
Mr. Chones should have his number in the rafters as a player who really was someone special. I wished he had been with us for three years and re-discussing this opened some very sore wounds, but as an adult, businessman and human being, I fully understand why Mr. Chones left when he did. Oh, and by the way, he did get his degree.
To further emphasize this point, when the offer came along Chones did not want to take it. Al told him he had to take it for his family.
This whole situation was a case where the expression what comes around goes around. Several years later , Roy Boe the owner of the Nets who signed Chones , was forced to sell Dr.Js contract to the 76rs , as he needed the money to be able to pay the Nets entry fee into the NBA. Boe was also the owner of the Islanders at the time and was having overall financial difficulties and was trying to hold onto both teams. He was ultimately unsuccessful and had to give up the Islanders just as they went on their championship run.
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How did Dean Smith know that Jordan would drop to pick #3?
He asked. At the time, the NBA drafted centers first as game changers. Sam Bowie was drafted ahead of Jordan and I forget who else.
Smith knew Jordan would be a Top 5 pick, which was his criteria for recommending his guys leave the program.
He knew because he asked.
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a guy named Olajuwon went #1 in the draft ahead of Bowie and Jordan.
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I am amazed at how, 46 years after the fact, the Chones decision still evokes the kind of emotion seen on this thread. It's amazing! Time does not heal all wounds.
The facts are the facts. An offer was there. Mr. Chones and his family were very poor.
A final opinion. Can you imagine what would have happened if it became public that Mr. Chones turned down the ABA offer?
Even after Mr. Chones left, Bob Lackey, a forward on that team was under NCAA investigation and forced to sign an agreement saying he did not hire an agent. That effort was reportedly the result of Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp at Kentucky, who hated Al and knew what was coming if he had to play MU in the Mideast Regional.
Had Mr. Chones turned the ABA down, Rupp and his NCAA boys likely would have been all over Marquette like a cheap suit. At issue would have been what discussions went on between Mr. Chones and the ABA, if any. The other question would have been an investigation as to whether any side deals or secret deals were cut between Mr. Chones and the ABA that would have allowed him to play through the season. My opinion is because our team was predominantly African-American, many would have made up allegations to derail Marquette. The distractions around our team would have been enormous and the probability we would have slipped high.
If you doubt me, go listen to the rant by Coach McGuire after we played Kansas State in the 1977 NCAAs. It was the first time Coach McGuire blew off steam that way and the viciousness with which he went after the NCAA was unparalleled. I suspect some of the pent up rage dating to this situation was a factor in that tirade.
As a side note, has Jim Chones ever opened up about this moment in his career? I know the story but has there even been feature length articles about it? If so, could someone post the URL?
Thanks
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I am amazed at how, 46 years after the fact, the Chones decision still evokes the kind of emotion seen on this thread. It's amazing! Time does not heal all wounds.
The facts are the facts. An offer was there. Mr. Chones and his family were very poor.
A final opinion. Can you imagine what would have happened if it became public that Mr. Chones turned down the ABA offer?
Even after Mr. Chones left, Bob Lackey, a forward on that team was under NCAA investigation and forced to sign an agreement saying he did not hire an agent. That effort was reportedly the result of Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp at Kentucky, who hated Al and knew what was coming if he had to play MU in the Mideast Regional.
Had Mr. Chones turned the ABA down, Rupp and his NCAA boys likely would have been all over Marquette like a cheap suit. At issue would have been what discussions went on between Mr. Chones and the ABA, if any. The other question would have been an investigation as to whether any side deals or secret deals were cut between Mr. Chones and the ABA that would have allowed him to play through the season. My opinion is because our team was predominantly African-American, many would have made up allegations to derail Marquette. The distractions around our team would have been enormous and the probability we would have slipped high.
If you doubt me, go listen to the rant by Coach McGuire after we played Kansas State in the 1977 NCAAs. It was the first time Coach McGuire blew off steam that way and the viciousness with which he went after the NCAA was unparalleled. I suspect some of the pent up rage dating to this situation was a factor in that tirade.
As a side note, has Jim Chones ever opened up about this moment in his career? I know the story but has there even been feature length articles about it? If so, could someone post the URL?
Thanks
great perspective dog! there are many examples of people questioning decisions made in the past when historical perspective is lost or forgotten. ya had to be there in the moment. it is not fair for a "revisionist" to opine from today's perspective. 1972 NEEDS to be part of the equation
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How did Dean Smith know that Jordan would drop to pick #3?
At the time the top 2 was decided by a coin flip. That was between Houston and Portland. Chicago was locked in at 3. Houston was not going to pass on Akeem. Portland had Drexler and wanted a center, dunce you needed a Big to win at that time. Chicago was not going to pass on MJ.
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I am amazed at how, 46 years after the fact, the Chones decision still evokes the kind of emotion seen on this thread. It's amazing! Time does not heal all wounds.
The facts are the facts. An offer was there. Mr. Chones and his family were very poor.
A final opinion. Can you imagine what would have happened if it became public that Mr. Chones turned down the ABA offer?
Even after Mr. Chones left, Bob Lackey, a forward on that team was under NCAA investigation and forced to sign an agreement saying he did not hire an agent. That effort was reportedly the result of Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp at Kentucky, who hated Al and knew what was coming if he had to play MU in the Mideast Regional.
Had Mr. Chones turned the ABA down, Rupp and his NCAA boys likely would have been all over Marquette like a cheap suit. At issue would have been what discussions went on between Mr. Chones and the ABA, if any. The other question would have been an investigation as to whether any side deals or secret deals were cut between Mr. Chones and the ABA that would have allowed him to play through the season. My opinion is because our team was predominantly African-American, many would have made up allegations to derail Marquette. The distractions around our team would have been enormous and the probability we would have slipped high.
If you doubt me, go listen to the rant by Coach McGuire after we played Kansas State in the 1977 NCAAs. It was the first time Coach McGuire blew off steam that way and the viciousness with which he went after the NCAA was unparalleled. I suspect some of the pent up rage dating to this situation was a factor in that tirade.
As a side note, has Jim Chones ever opened up about this moment in his career? I know the story but has there even been feature length articles about it? If so, could someone post the URL?
Thanks
Has anyone said he made the wrong decision?
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Has anyone said he made the wrong decision?
I was going to MU at the time. I ran into Marcus Washington in the old gym and asked him if he felt cheated by Chones going pro. He said no, it simply was too much money to turn down.
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I was going to MU at the time. I ran into Marcus Washington in the old gym and asked him if he felt cheated by Chones going pro. He said no, it simply was too much money to turn down.
It was crazy money. Equivalent today $8.5 to $9 million.
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Your views on college athletics have clouded your views on this. These three player situations are not analogous and the coaching comment has zero do with it, either.
McCaffrey could have done both - played with his team while getting ready for the draft and he reported had a $5 million payout coming if he slipped past #40 in the draft.
Chones was in a unique situation and there are compelling reasons as to why the timing worked out as it did.
Henry completed his season and did something very common and something that was expected by many prior to his arrival on campus.
If McCaffrey had done what Henry and so many basketball and football players do, no issue. He quit during the season even though he didn't have to in order to be drafted and play in the NFL. ARREST HIM!
I only mentioned Henry because somebody had mentioned him earlier. I agree his situation was not analgous (great word, BTW). Nor was that of Jordan, whom another Scooper also brought up.
Your views ofnMcCaffrey have clouded your views on this. You have chosen to dislike him intensely and therefore cannot be objective. You and I simply disagree on McCaffrey. I would have done exactly what he did. He got more than twice that $5 million from the Panthers in signing bonus alone. The effen Sun Bowl. Please.
Chones did have a unique situation, and it's why this has been such a fun, interesting comment stream.
The word "quit" evokes a lot of emotions. He was the star of a 21-0 team with legitimate championship aspirations. He left that team.
Definition: Quit: 1, leave (a place), usually permanently; 2, resign from (a job); 3, stop or discontinue (an action or activity).
Chones was 3 for 3!
I know there were extenuating circumstances. I know Al told him he should leave. But he did leave a great team in the middle of a season.
And I would have done exactly what he did, too!
Oh, and yes my reference to hypocrite coaches really had nothing to do with anything. I just like throwing it out there. They are the worst quitters of all!
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I cried the night I learned he was going pro the next day and now think it was one of the greatest things Al ever did at MU. Aside from helping Jimmy and his family, it showed what the players meant to Al. I have been lucky enough to know many former Al players and every one still holds Al in lofty regard.