MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: OldWarrior on May 18, 2017, 10:37:05 AM

Title: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: OldWarrior on May 18, 2017, 10:37:05 AM
Have there been any rumors of Marquette interest in a graduate transfer?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 18, 2017, 10:49:22 AM
Not many out there at this point. I think we're going to battle with what we have unless something pops up.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Benny B on May 18, 2017, 11:05:39 AM
Honestly, I think this team is probably at the point where the value of a grad transfer is into the diminishing returns.  Unless you get a superstar, the only meaningful result is that he takes away minutes that might be better served in game experience for younger players.

It's great as a stop-gap to plug a hole in the team or with a very young team in need of leadership, but I don't see either being the case with MU's roster at this juncture.  You've already got a floor general and senior leadership.  You've got experience coming back at every position except the 4, which wasn't really a focal point of the lineup any way... not to mention, you have a couple freshmen PF's coming in who might be able to earn material minutes in their freshman campaign.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 18, 2017, 01:44:46 PM
Honestly, I think this team is probably at the point where the value of a grad transfer is into the diminishing returns.  Unless you get a superstar, the only meaningful result is that he takes away minutes that might be better served in game experience for younger players.

It's great as a stop-gap to plug a hole in the team or with a very young team in need of leadership, but I don't see either being the case with MU's roster at this juncture.  You've already got a floor general and senior leadership.  You've got experience coming back at every position except the 4, which wasn't really a focal point of the lineup any way... not to mention, you have a couple freshmen PF's coming in who might be able to earn material minutes in their freshman campaign.

At this point, I agree.  I hate banking scholarships, but it is probably the right thing to do at this point.  Not much in the way of impact grad transfers out there, and the ones that haven't committed yet have been courted for weeks and weeks.  Its always possible Wojo and Co have been in contact, but I think that ship has sailed, and I am cool with that. 

Excited to see what John and Eke can bring at the 4.  Really wish Froling was eligible right away.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 03:37:59 PM
At this point, I agree.  I hate banking scholarships, but it is probably the right thing to do at this point.  Not much in the way of impact grad transfers out there, and the ones that haven't committed yet have been courted for weeks and weeks.  Its always possible Wojo and Co have been in contact, but I think that ship has sailed, and I am cool with that. 

Excited to see what John and Eke can bring at the 4.  Really wish Froling was eligible right away.

The highlighted part ... long argued here that banking a scholarship represents failure.  Never know who regresses and who gets injured.  So, if a "serviceable" name pops up, you take it.

Not saying there is a name available, but leaving a seat empty never improves a team.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 18, 2017, 03:38:46 PM
The highlighted part ... long argued here that banking a scholarship represents failure.  Never know who regresses and who gets injured.  So, if a "serviceable" name pops up, you take it.

Not saying there is a name available, but leave a seat empty never improves a team.


It does if a midyear transfer becomes available.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on May 18, 2017, 03:40:00 PM
The highlighted part ... long argued here that banking a scholarship represents failure.  Never know who regresses and who gets injured.  So, if a "serviceable" name pops up, you take it.

Not saying there is a name available, but leaving a seat empty never improves a team.

Represents failure?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 03:40:04 PM

It does if a midyear transfer becomes available.

True ... and if that is a conscious strategy, that's fine too.

Luke and Frolling came via that option.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 03:42:05 PM
Represents failure?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on May 18, 2017, 03:44:58 PM
Duke failed all the way to the National Title just a few years ago.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 18, 2017, 03:45:36 PM
Yes, you are allowed 13 scholarship players.  Teams fight tooth and nail not to have this number reduced when the NCAA hands out sanctions.

So why would you voluntarily limit yourself to less than 13?  It makes the team worse.


Not really.  Filling the 13th scholarship with someone who is likely not going to make an impact isn't helpful.  And it fact it could be harmful if it messes with team dynamics.  It is hardly failure not to fill up your scholarship allotment. 
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on May 18, 2017, 03:46:46 PM
Yes, you are allowed 13 scholarship players.  Teams fight tooth and nail not to have this number reduced when the NCAA hands out sanctions.

So why would you voluntarily limit yourself to less than 13?  It makes the team worse.

Fight tooth and nail not to have them reduced by NCAA sanctions? They have a say in what sanctions they receive?

Having less than 13 scholarship players automatically makes your team worse? That's news to me. Imagine what the Duke team would've done with a full roster the year they won the national championship over Wisconsin. I think they had 8 scholarship players at the end of the year. Is that the greatest feat in the history of sports then, given with each scholarship going unused they made themselves worse?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 04:19:43 PM

Not really.  Filling the 13th scholarship with someone who is likely not going to make an impact isn't helpful.  And it fact it could be harmful if it messes with team dynamics.  It is hardly failure not to fill up your scholarship allotment.

The highlighted is not restricted to just grad transfers.  This is true of freshman, regular transfers and mid-season transfers too.

Now let me be more specific ... when people use the phrase "bank a scholarship" that sounds like actively giving up looking to fill that spot.  Sure you could not find someone that's fine, but to actively stop, because you have "enough talent" with 11 or 12 scholarship players, which is what bank means, represents failure.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 04:22:53 PM
Fight tooth and nail not to have them reduced by NCAA sanctions? They have a say in what sanctions they receive?

Having less than 13 scholarship players automatically makes your team worse? That's news to me. Imagine what the Duke team would've done with a full roster the year they won the national championship over Wisconsin. I think they had 8 scholarship players at the end of the year. Is that the greatest feat in the history of sports then, given with each scholarship going unused they made themselves worse?

They also got lucky because 1 or 2 key injuries with no one behind them would have sunk their season.

They "got away with it" ... or are you seriously saying that once a team gets to about 8 scholarship players they can stop recruiting?

Lastly, is Pitino wrong for having a team of 13 scholarship players and as many as 5 walk-ons.  He won an NC too with about 18 players.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MuMark on May 18, 2017, 04:30:16 PM
The highlighted is not restricted to just grad transfers.  This is true of freshman, regular transfers and mid-season transfers too.

Now let me be more specific ... when people use the phrase "bank a scholarship" that sounds like actively giving up looking to fill that spot.  Sure you could not find someone that's fine, but to actively stop, because you have "enough talent" with 11 or 12 scholarship players, which is what bank means, represents failure.

That's not what people mean. Managing scholarships is something every coach deals with in 1 form or another. Takng another Freshmen just  to fill up the roster is silly and shortsighted.......a coach has to decide what is in the best interest of his team......both long and short term.

This isn't fantasy basketball......build a culture and recruit to it......if that means 13 players fine.....if it means 11 or 12 that's ok too.....I'd rather bank a scholarship then have to run a player off the next year to.open 1 up.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 18, 2017, 04:34:58 PM
The highlighted is not restricted to just grad transfers.  This is true of freshman, regular transfers and mid-season transfers too.

No. Grad transfers have the potential to disrupt team dynamics. They could take playing time away from another player who may transfer in response just as an example. They also take away the ability to recruit a mid-season transfer. I'm all for grabbing a grad transfer if they are going to make an impact on the team. But an empty seat can be more valuable than a player who is not going to play.

The only two grad transfers we were linked to this year were arguably the best on the market this season. Wojo seemed to only be interested in top tier wings as grad transfers. With 12 players on the roster, I am more than comfortable with that.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 18, 2017, 04:47:12 PM
That's not what people mean. Managing scholarships is something every coach deals with in 1 form or another. Takng another Freshmen just  to fill up the roster is silly and shortsighted.......a coach has to decide what is in the best interest of his team......both long and short term.

This isn't fantasy basketball......build a culture and recruit to it......if that means 13 players fine.....if it means 11 or 12 that's ok too.....I'd rather bank a scholarship then have to run a player off the next year to.open 1 up.

Don't have to run off a grad transfer as they are 1 and done.  Yes taking a Freshman to fill spots is silly.  But we are talking about an unused spot available now only for next season.  Huge difference than grabbing random freshman.

They rest ... build a culture and recruit to it ... is part of the process of finding the right players that goes without saying for this discussion.

Sorry ... but "bank" means to give up and stop looking, don't return messages from potential grad transfers because you are out of that market ... period.  If it does not mean that, they why use that word?  Say "keep looking until you find that right person" (and no, this is not the same as "bank"). 


No. Grad transfers have the potential to disrupt team dynamics. They could take playing time away from another player who may transfer in response just as an example. They also take away the ability to recruit a mid-season transfer. I'm all for grabbing a grad transfer if they are going to make an impact on the team. But an empty seat can be more valuable than a player who is not going to play.

The only two grad transfers we were linked to this year were arguably the best on the market this season. Wojo seemed to only be interested in top tier wings as grad transfers. With 12 players on the roster, I am more than comfortable with that.

Again, this is true of every player no matter how they come to your team ... freshman, regular transfers, mid-season transfers, grad transfers or walk-ons.

To restate, which of these five ways listed in the previous sentence makes is acceptable to acquire a potentially disruptive player?

Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 18, 2017, 05:14:15 PM
Again, this is true of every player no matter how they come to your team ... freshman, regular transfers, mid-season transfers, grad transfers or walk-ons.

To restate, which of these five ways listed in the previous sentence makes is acceptable to acquire a potentially disruptive player?

Sorry I misread your last post. I'm not sure what your second sentence means. The point is that you shouldn't take a player just to take a player. It doesn't matter what way they are coming to your school. You only take a player if they are going to make your team better. Wojo's assessment seems to be that there are currently zero players on the 2017 market who are both good enough to make a positive impact and interested in coming to Marquette. So the plan, at the moment, seems to be to bank the scholarship. Trust me, if Mo Bamba announces tomorrow that he was just kidding about Texas and is interested in Marquette. Marquette will take the call.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MuMark on May 18, 2017, 05:23:55 PM
For the 100th time.....if Wojo thought there was a grad transfer that would help the team and wanted to come here he would take him......

You are creating an issue that doesn't exist.

Bank is just a term used when you don't fill a scholarship in a certain year......it doesn't mean you didn't attempt to fill it......it means you looked at the options available and either passed or missed out.

At this point in time Wojo isn't filling that spot.....if a new grad transfer becomes available then you look at him and decide if he is worth pursuing.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TedBaxter on May 18, 2017, 05:57:58 PM
The team is on it's way to being a top 10-15 program in the next 2 years and people are criticizing Wojo for an unused scholarship? Ok.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: oldwarrior81 on May 18, 2017, 06:06:31 PM
Carrying an opening into the season also allows the possibility of taking on a mid-season transfer.

Although with the current roster construction and available scolarships, that doesn't seem very likely unless a few more spots open up on the team in December.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 18, 2017, 06:58:42 PM
Sorry ... but "bank" means to give up and stop looking, don't return messages from potential grad transfers because you are out of that market ... period.  If it does not mean that, they why use that word?  Say "keep looking until you find that right person" (and no, this is not the same as "bank"). 


Good lord.  Of all the inane discussions...
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on May 18, 2017, 07:52:44 PM
They also got lucky because 1 or 2 key injuries with no one behind them would have sunk their season.

They "got away with it" ... or are you seriously saying that once a team gets to about 8 scholarship players they can stop recruiting?

Lastly, is Pitino wrong for having a team of 13 scholarship players and as many as 5 walk-ons.  He won an NC too with about 18 players.

Now you're shifting goalposts.  You said that having under 13 scholarship players "makes the team worse."  Either that's an entirely false statement or Duke winning a National Title with 8 scholarship players is the greatest feat in the history of sports.  Duke didn't "get away" with anything besides being the best basketball team in the country.  They weren't a worse team because they didn't have 5 extra bodies sitting on their bench.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Newsdreams on May 18, 2017, 08:42:07 PM
Why is this even being discussed from the very beginning Wojo said he was not going to give scholarships just to fill roster spots. So if the scholarship is banked is because there is no one Wojo believes is worthy of the scolarship.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Phuket MU Fan on May 18, 2017, 10:30:05 PM

Good lord.  Of all the inane discussions...

+1000
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 12:35:33 AM
If people are curious, I have still been tracking grad transfers just for my own amusement. There are currently 16 left on the market that I would consider "high major worthy." All that means is I think they could land at a high major (not necessarily a good high major) and at least crack the rotation. Those 16 are:

Cameron Johnson SG from Pittsburgh
Mark Alstork SF from Wright State
James Daniel III PG from Howard
Geno Thorpe PG from USF
MiKyle McIntosh PF from Illinois State
Rashad Muhammad SG from Miami (FL)
Wesley Myers PG from Maine
Akoy Agau PF from Georgetown
Zach Lofton SG from Texas Southern
Kameron Rooks C from Cal
Qiydar Davis SG from Louisiana Tech
Jevon Thomas PG from Seton Hall
Dwight Coleby PF from Kansas
Darien Williams PF from St. John's
Lexus Williams PG from Valparaiso
Bryan Alberts PG from Gonzaga

Of those, Cameron Johnson is the only one I am confident would start for Marquette and he has already trimmed his list.

Mark Alstork is the only other one that I think would start for Marquette.

The next 8 are the only ones I would feel confident about cracking Marquette's rotation, one of whom is ineglible to transfer to Marquette (Agau). And another who has had multiple disciplinary issues at multiple schools (Muhammad).

The remaining 6 I think could play high major ball (4 of them already did) but not at a program at our level.

Basically, the pickings are real slim at this point and most of them have already trimmed lists. Its not like Wojo is ignoring quality players. The only ones I personally would like for Marquette are Johnson, Thorpe, and McIntosh. But Wojo knows the teams needs a lot better than I do.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 07:56:32 AM
Good list ... thanks for this.

Many schools have graduation in the next few weeks, do you think this list expands greatly from here?

Also, if memory serves, Jamil Wilson was a June transfer and others came in the summer as well.

I agree that this list suggests nothing here for MU, but there is still time to find a good fit between now and September.

Foreign player?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 08:27:57 AM
Good list ... thanks for this.

Many schools have graduation in the next few weeks, do you think this list expands greatly from here?

Also, if memory serves, Jamil Wilson was a June transfer and others came in the summer as well.

I agree that this list suggests nothing here for MU, but there is still time to find a good fit between now and September.

Foreign player?

It will grow.  Not substantially. There are still new transfers announcing every day.  But in the last two weeks I've only seen one who is high major worthy and he barely qualified.  At this point it's mostly end of the bench type players.

Unless a stud becomes available,  I would much rather have an empty chair.  We are big game hunting in the class of 2018. Would rather have the schollies for them
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 08:36:07 AM
It will grow.  Not substantially. There are still new transfers announcing every day.  But in the last two weeks I've only seen one who is high major worthy and he barely qualified.  At this point it's mostly end of the bench type players.

Unless a stud becomes available,  I would much rather have an empty chair.  We are big game hunting in the class of 2018. Would rather have the schollies for them

An empty chair is also fine if Wojo wants to use it for a mid-season transfer in December.  See Luke and Frolling.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: brewcity77 on May 19, 2017, 09:09:53 AM
The highlighted part ... long argued here that banking a scholarship represents failure.  Never know who regresses and who gets injured.  So, if a "serviceable" name pops up, you take it.

Not saying there is a name available, but leaving a seat empty never improves a team.

I disagree completely. In addition to the ability to add midyear players, we've never seen a time where players are so demanding of immediate PT. I'd rather leave a seat empty than create unrest with my current roster. Filling a scholarship just for the sake of it could look like recruiting over a player you want for the long run.

Generally, you're only going to play about 8-10 players. Having 1-2 bodies in case of injury is a nice luxury, but even if you fall to 7 players, that's a deep enough rotation as long as there's versatility in those guys on the bench.

If I could script a perfect roster in today's environment, it would feature 10 active players that all get minutes, 1 transfer that is sitting out, and one homegrown redshirt. It's enough bodies to weather 2-3 injuries, enough practice guys, and you have the "break in case of emergency" options of taking off the redshirt or adding an unexpected transfer or decommit from another school if someone suddenly becomes available with the 13th scholarship.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 09:23:03 AM
An empty chair is also fine if Wojo wants to use it for a mid-season transfer in December.  See Luke and Frolling.

You don't have to tell me. You are the one who is saying that Wojo has failed because he hasn't filled the 13th scholarship this year.

But unless a Caleb Swanigan type player wants to transfer mid season...or there are a lot of transfer between now and December....I wouldn't expect a mid-season transfer. Would lead to unbalanced classes and uses all our scholarships for 2018....where again we are big game hunting.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 19, 2017, 09:42:37 AM
Let's say that Geno Thorpe for instance is very interested in Marquette and Wojo takes him as a graduate transfer.  According to Heisey, this is automatically better than the "failure" of leaving the seat empty.

Best case scenario: He plays well in a 20 mpg role.  Defends well.  Scores better than he has before.  Provides senior leadership and mentors the younger players.

Worse case scenario:  He ends up being a 10-15 mpg guy.  Takes those minutes away from Anim or Elliott who grow frustrated with their roles.  He ends up shooting about the same as he always have (not very efficient).  He doesn't really like his role and isn't really "all in." 

You can see why leaving the seat open may be a better option than filling it. 
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: jsglow on May 19, 2017, 09:53:44 AM
I think the 13th can work a little like brew suggested.  Didn't we use one a couple of years ago to reward Michael Mache his Senior year?  And wasn't that awarded after the chance for a last second mid-year transfer ended?  Seriously, family resources aside would it be terrible to give it to Cam Marotta for second semester next year?  We know he and his teammates would appreciate the gesture knowing full well that its availability his Senior year wouldn't be guaranteed.  Maybe Kim reciprocates the gesture with a 5 figure donation to Blue/Gold?  I personally think that would be a great outcome.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 09:53:48 AM
I disagree completely. In addition to the ability to add midyear players, we've never seen a time where players are so demanding of immediate PT. I'd rather leave a seat empty than create unrest with my current roster. Filling a scholarship just for the sake of it could look like recruiting over a player you want for the long run.

Generally, you're only going to play about 8-10 players. Having 1-2 bodies in case of injury is a nice luxury, but even if you fall to 7 players, that's a deep enough rotation as long as there's versatility in those guys on the bench.

If I could script a perfect roster in today's environment, it would feature 10 active players that all get minutes, 1 transfer that is sitting out, and one homegrown redshirt. It's enough bodies to weather 2-3 injuries, enough practice guys, and you have the "break in case of emergency" options of taking off the redshirt or adding an unexpected transfer or decommit from another school if someone suddenly becomes available with the 13th scholarship.

Again ... to "bank a schollie" means to give up and actively NOT look.  To put it in a vault because you planning to NOT use it.  This represents a failure.
(search the site, this exact argument was first brought up in 2012, and several times since, including exactly one year ago,  Most agreed the definition of "bank" means to consciously decide not to use it and that represented a failure.  But since you all want to disagree with my because I wrote it, you now have decided that this is all wrong.)

Never stop recruiting and never stop looking.  Yes, as you get better the options become more limited, but you don't give up or "bank."  And 13 players of the quality you want is always better than 12 or 11.

The rest has nothing to do with grad transfers alone, it applies to all players and is not necessary to bring up.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 19, 2017, 09:55:34 AM
Again ... to "bank a schollie" means to give up and actively NOT look. 


That is *your* definition of how others are using that word.  Stop implying that everyone uses the same interpretation. 
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 19, 2017, 09:57:36 AM
McIntosh would be a nice add, but I doubt we're interested.  TAMU - have you seen McIntosh actually connected with anyone?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on May 19, 2017, 09:59:30 AM
Again ... to "bank a schollie" means to give up and actively NOT look.  To put it in a vault because you planning to NOT use it.  This represents a failure.
(search the site, this exact argument was first brought up in 2012, and several times since, including exactly one year ago,  Most agreed the definition of "bank" means to consciously decide not to use it and that represented a failure.  But since you all want to disagree with my because I wrote it, you now have decided that this is all wrong.)

Never stop recruiting and never stop looking.  Yes, as you get better the options become more limited, but you don't give up or "bank."  And 13 players of the quality you want is always better than 12 or 11.

The rest has nothing to do with grad transfers alone, it applies to all players and is not necessary to bring up.

So what is a scholarship that goes unused, but not because the coaches just decided, "Well, what the hell, that's enough recruiting for this year, let's take a vacation and come back refreshed and ready to go in November!" called?  One that coaches tried really hard to fill with a player they thought would fit/help the program but just couldn't land that player/those players?  What do you call that scholarship?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 09:59:46 AM
Let's say that Geno Thorpe for instance is very interested in Marquette and Wojo takes him as a graduate transfer.  According to Heisey, this is automatically better than the "failure" of leaving the seat empty.

Best case scenario: He plays well in a 20 mpg role.  Defends well.  Scores better than he has before.  Provides senior leadership and mentors the younger players.

Worse case scenario:  He ends up being a 10-15 mpg guy.  Takes those minutes away from Anim or Elliott who grow frustrated with their roles.  He ends up shooting about the same as he always have (not very efficient).  He doesn't really like his role and isn't really "all in." 

You can see why leaving the seat open may be a better option than filling it.

I've been here for 10 years and the general consensus is you never stop recruiting.  If you can find guys that can do better than your current guys, and improve the team, you get them.  You never settle for "these are our guys" and treat them like fragile snowflakes because they might get upset that better players come in and take their minutes away from them.

Or, what you are saying is Crean was wrong in 2003 to get the one-year transfer, Robert Jackson because it retarded the growth of Freshman Chris Grimm.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 10:01:03 AM

That is *your* definition of how others are using that word.  Stop implying that everyone uses the same interpretation.

That's the problem, we make up meanings for words and then we change it again and again and again.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 19, 2017, 10:04:52 AM
So what is a scholarship that goes unused, but not because the coaches just decided, "Well, what the hell, that's enough recruiting for this year, let's take a vacation and come back refreshed and ready to go in November!" called?  One that coaches tried really hard to fill with a player they thought would fit/help the program but just couldn't land that player/those players?  What do you call that scholarship?

Every scholarship is a work in process.  There is no finality to them like "bank" suggests.   They are always available for the right player anytime the right player shows up.

So stop saying the last schollie is "banked"  Wojo is out looking for that last player.  Maybe he finds him this month, or next month, this summer, as a mid-season transfer this winter or next year.  You insult Wojo by saying he is "banking it."
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: barfolomew on May 19, 2017, 10:06:48 AM
Again ... to "bank a schollie" means to give up and actively NOT look.  To put it in a vault because you planning to NOT use it.  This represents a failure.

You choose strange hill on which to die, kemosabe.

(http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31700000/North-by-Northwest-north-by-northwest-31742075-300-300.gif)
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Benny B on May 19, 2017, 10:15:52 AM
Foreign player?

Really?  Hopefully Wojo is scouting the University of Wolverhampton basketball team for grad transfers... after all, they're no longer using peach baskets anymore.


Any foreign player who isn't already signed by now probably isn't making it through the clearinghouse before the season starts.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 19, 2017, 10:24:35 AM
I've been here for 10 years and the general consensus is you never stop recruiting.  If you can find guys that can do better than your current guys, and improve the team, you get them.  You never settle for "these are our guys" and treat them like fragile snowflakes because they might get upset that better players come in and take their minutes away from them.

Or, what you are saying is Crean was wrong in 2003 to get the one-year transfer, Robert Jackson because it retarded the growth of Freshman Chris Grimm.


Man you are terrible at comprehending English.  Or maybe you just like to argue.

Nothing I said above is inconsistent with my opinion that Jackson was anything but a fantastic idea. See if you can figure out why...
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 10:43:27 AM
So.... This is an argument about what banking a scholarship means? We've really outscooped ourselves this time.

So stop saying the last schollie is "banked"  Wojo is out looking for that last player.  Maybe he finds him this month, or next month, this summer, as a mid-season transfer this winter or next year.  You insult Wojo by saying he is "banking it."

You do realize that if Wojo fills the scholarship next year that means he banked the scholarship this year right?  Hell,  even waiting for a mid season transfer is banking the scholarship for a mid season transfer.

Based on the fact that we haven't been linked with any transfers or high school seniors since Morrow committed,  my guess is that Wojo is currently banking the scholarship so he can focus on 2018 recruiting.  I also guess that if a stud player becomes available and is interested in Marquette that Wojo will reevaluate his plan to bank it. This is not a failure.  It is a strategic decision because recruiting time is a limited resource and wasting time recruiting an end is the bench player to fill your 13th scholarship comes with huge opportunity costs.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: 79Warrior on May 19, 2017, 10:50:47 AM
So.... This is an argument about what banking a scholarship means? We've really outscooped ourselves this time.

You do realize that if Wojo fills the scholarship next year that means he banked the scholarship this year right?  Hell,  even waiting for a mid season transfer is banking the scholarship for a mid season transfer.

Based on the fact that we haven't been linked with any transfers or high school seniors since Morrow committed,  my guess is that Wojo is currently banking the scholarship so he can focus on 2018 recruiting.  I also guess that if a stud player becomes available and is interested in Marquette that Wojo will reevaluate his plan to bank it. This is not a failure.  It is a strategic decision because recruiting time is a limited resource and wasting time recruiting an end is the bench player to fill your 13th scholarship comes with huge opportunity costs.

Semantics. Is he "banking" because he wants to hold the scholarship intentionally and was not looking at anyone or is he "banking" because he was unable to get someone he wanted.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 10:54:36 AM
McIntosh would be a nice add, but I doubt we're interested.  TAMU - have you seen McIntosh actually connected with anyone?

He's been offered by Wisconsin, Oregon State, and Illinois. He hasn't taken any visits yet. He has declared for the NBA draft and seems to think he actually has a shot at getting drafted. Assuming he doesn't stay in the draft (would be a mistake IMHO) I'd imagine he'd start taking visits after May 24.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: brewcity77 on May 19, 2017, 11:01:11 AM
Again ... to "bank a schollie" means to give up and actively NOT look.  To put it in a vault because you planning to NOT use it.  This represents a failure.
(search the site, this exact argument was first brought up in 2012, and several times since, including exactly one year ago,  Most agreed the definition of "bank" means to consciously decide not to use it and that represented a failure.  But since you all want to disagree with my because I wrote it, you now have decided that this is all wrong.)

Never stop recruiting and never stop looking.  Yes, as you get better the options become more limited, but you don't give up or "bank."  And 13 players of the quality you want is always better than 12 or 11.

Don't be stupid. Rather, stop being stupid, because it's too late for the former.

If the staff is happy with the roster as constructed, a 13th player can absolutely be worse than 11 or 12. Adding a body that will not play significant minutes, will put pressure on current players to transfer, or will delay the development of current players is worse. Taking a player that will prevent you from landing a better player in a year (say Joey or Grimes) is worse. And while you can make the stupid and BS argument that "you can always find room" that's not true if the player you really wanted perceives a logjam at his position and isn't willing to commit because of how you filled that 13th scholarship a year earlier.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 11:04:39 AM
Semantics. Is he "banking" because he wants to hold the scholarship intentionally and was not looking at anyone or is he "banking" because he was unable to get someone he wanted.

Impossible for us to know. After Elliott committed we have been linked with Ed Morrow, Cameron Johnson, Egor Koulechov, and Jemarl Baker. It's possible that Wojo wanted two from that group and just failed on Johnson, Koulechov, and Baker. Or its possible that Wojo's plan all along was to only get one of the four and save the last for 2018. Both options are also possible. When Morrow committed we had already been pushed off of the other three's lists. Some of the 2018 players such as Joey, Grimes, and LaDee that we are perusing are going to be much more impactful players than any of the four listed above.

If I had to speculate, my guess would that Wojo's ideal situation would have been grabbing Koulechov and one of Johnson/Baker/Morrow. When Koulechov was a no go, the plan was to get one of the other three and bank the other.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on May 19, 2017, 11:14:42 AM
Every scholarship is a work in process.  There is no finality to them like "bank" suggests.   They are always available for the right player anytime the right player shows up.

So stop saying the last schollie is "banked"  Wojo is out looking for that last player.  Maybe he finds him this month, or next month, this summer, as a mid-season transfer this winter or next year.  You insult Wojo by saying he is "banking it."

No, nobody insults anyone by saying a coach banked a scholarship.  If the scholarship goes unused it is banked.  If a Fischer shows up midyear, he puts to use the scholarship that Wojo banked heading into the season.  Having an open scholarship available for a midseason transfer is one reason having a banked scholarship can actually help a team and not automatically make a team worse, as you say it does.  If November comes around and practices start up with 12 scholarship players, the 13th scholarship was banked, and I can guarantee you it's not because Wojo put his feet up and decided he'd had enough of recruiting for 2017.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Big Daddy 84 on May 19, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
No one is on the radar.  Igor was the only one that they were really excited about.  The team has great chemistry right now and the staff feels that the roster has enough talent to compete this year and does not see a need to add just a body.  If it is not someone who would definitely be in the 7-8 man rotation it is not going to happen.  Unlike last couple of years where  it was a need just to have some experience, this year it would have been a bonus if it happened.

2018  Joey #1 priority and will sign someone else too if they are viewed as a "high" ceiling player.  No one is leaving that I know off, but if you look at the landscape of today's college basketball the odds are against all players returning.  Bailey is still expected to be here.

I apologize if supplying this info interrupts the regular programming of bickering back and forth.  Please feel free to return to normal activities.  I don't like to preach and I am not pure as the wind driven snow, but sometimes Scoop can be really silly.   

One other point that I would like to bring up is that I don't hear much praise for Bill Scholl and what he has done to upgrade the entire athletic program. Men's BBall will always be the primary team, but we should acknowledge that we are becoming recognized for our other teams as well.  A significant amount of credit should go to Bill and his decisions.  I doubt he will be here in 5 years, simply because some large Football power conference team will grab him.  He has never said this to me, it is just my own thoughts.  He is very well thought of and respected and I know that there are efforts to keep him here, but the money from the football programs is just to large to match and ultimately he will get an offer he just cant say no too.  I hope not, but I see this to be more likely than Wojo going anywhere soon.

PLEASE DO NOT START A RUMOR THAT BILL IS LEAVING  I am only sharing my thoughts not any "inside" info.

Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Loose Cannon on May 19, 2017, 11:33:16 AM


  As always, Thanks.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: rocket surgeon on May 19, 2017, 03:05:21 PM
     "Igor was the only one that they were really excited about."

as always, appreciate daddy's input, but pardon my ignorance-who's igor?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 19, 2017, 03:10:02 PM
     "Igor was the only one that they were really excited about."

as always, appreciate daddy's input, but pardon my ignorance-who's igor?

Egor Koulechov. Graduate Transfer from Rice. Was the 4th most accurate three point shooter in the country last season.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: barfolomew on May 19, 2017, 05:47:18 PM
PLEASE DO NOT START A RUMOR THAT BILL IS LEAVING  I am only sharing my thoughts not any "inside" info.

So, when I apply Scoop reading standards, I'm not sure if BD means that we SHOULD or should NOT start that rumor...

(https://m.popkey.co/d1e584/oZdxR.gif)
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: rocket surgeon on May 20, 2017, 04:50:09 AM
So, when I apply Scoop reading standards, I'm not sure if BD means that we SHOULD or should NOT start that rumor...

(https://m.popkey.co/d1e584/oZdxR.gif)

i'm thinking not, especially if we want to keep on getting juice from BD, ey?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on May 20, 2017, 07:30:19 AM
Egor Koulechov. Graduate Transfer from Rice. Was the 4th most accurate three point shooter in the country last season.

To be clear, not the 4th most accurate 3-point shooter. If** he had made the NCAA minimum for their leaderboard, which he did not, but you include him, and others who shot better from him but were also under the minimum continued to be excluded, he'd be #4.

Of those players who played at least 40% of their team's minutes and made at least 2 3FG's per game, he was #26 in the nation.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Nukem2 on May 20, 2017, 07:50:21 AM
To be clear, not the 4th most accurate 3-point shooter. If** he had made the NCAA minimum for their leaderboard, which he did not, but you include him, and others who shot better from him but were also under the minimum continued to be excluded, he'd be #4.

Of those players who played at least 40% of their team's minutes and made at least 2 3FG's per game, he was #26 in the nation.
I guess he is a good shooter whatever the stats here....     ;)
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: 79Warrior on May 20, 2017, 10:50:10 AM


Big Daddy made a comment about nobody leaving thus far. When was the last time we had no transfers from the roster? It seems like it has been many years.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 20, 2017, 10:58:01 AM

Big Daddy made a comment about nobody leaving thus far. When was the last time we had no transfers from the roster? It seems like it has been many years.

Two years ago we went slightly more than 365 days without a transfer that ended when Steve Taylor left.

Other than that you have to go back to the Crean years.

Note, you can pretty much say the same about every high major program in the country.  And also note that we probably had as many come in as left.  So, if you want to count Morrow transferring in, the roster did change again after the last game.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 20, 2017, 11:37:47 AM

Big Daddy made a comment about nobody leaving thus far. When was the last time we had no transfers from the roster? It seems like it has been many years.


We did have one this off season.  (Duane)  It really is too early to speculate about next year anyway.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 20, 2017, 11:41:00 AM

We did have one this off season.  (Duane)  It really is too early to speculate about next year anyway.

And sandy and Traci in season.  Really the roster stability is no better or worse than under Buzz
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on May 20, 2017, 11:43:44 AM
Two years ago we went slightly more than 365 days without a transfer that ended when Steve Taylor left.

Other than that you have to go back to the Crean years.

Note, you can pretty much say the same about every high major program in the country.  And also note that we probably had as many come in as left.  So, if you want to count Morrow transferring in, the roster did change again after the last game.

So Dawson and Burton don't count?  Or Sandy, Traci and Duane this season? 
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on May 20, 2017, 11:56:12 AM
STJ was the *beginning* of the just over 365 day window.

He announced on March 18, 2015.  It was announced that Wally wasn't returning on April 21, 2016.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Herman Cain on May 20, 2017, 12:56:25 PM
No one is on the radar.  Igor was the only one that they were really excited about.  The team has great chemistry right now and the staff feels that the roster has enough talent to compete this year and does not see a need to add just a body.  If it is not someone who would definitely be in the 7-8 man rotation it is not going to happen.  Unlike last couple of years where  it was a need just to have some experience, this year it would have been a bonus if it happened.

2018  Joey #1 priority and will sign someone else too if they are viewed as a "high" ceiling player.  No one is leaving that I know off, but if you look at the landscape of today's college basketball the odds are against all players returning.  Bailey is still expected to be here.

I apologize if supplying this info interrupts the regular programming of bickering back and forth.  Please feel free to return to normal activities.  I don't like to preach and I am not pure as the wind driven snow, but sometimes Scoop can be really silly.   

One other point that I would like to bring up is that I don't hear much praise for Bill Scholl and what he has done to upgrade the entire athletic program. Men's BBall will always be the primary team, but we should acknowledge that we are becoming recognized for our other teams as well.  A significant amount of credit should go to Bill and his decisions.  I doubt he will be here in 5 years, simply because some large Football power conference team will grab him.  He has never said this to me, it is just my own thoughts.  He is very well thought of and respected and I know that there are efforts to keep him here, but the money from the football programs is just to large to match and ultimately he will get an offer he just cant say no too.  I hope not, but I see this to be more likely than Wojo going anywhere soon.

PLEASE DO NOT START A RUMOR THAT BILL IS LEAVING  I am only sharing my thoughts not any "inside" info.
Bill is very happy here . MU is an optimal job from his family perspective, he has said so many times in private .  He has done a great job for MU athletics.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 20, 2017, 01:12:07 PM
Bill is very happy here . MU is an optimal job from his family perspective, he has said so many times in private .  He has done a great job for MU athletics.

But what's his mom think?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MuMark on May 20, 2017, 01:40:10 PM
How big is Bill's neck?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 20, 2017, 02:37:15 PM
To be clear, not the 4th most accurate 3-point shooter. If** he had made the NCAA minimum for their leaderboard, which he did not, but you include him, and others who shot better from him but were also under the minimum continued to be excluded, he'd be #4.

Of those players who played at least 40% of their team's minutes and made at least 2 3FG's per game, he was #26 in the nation.

He missed the cutoff by 4 attempts. I felt it was close enough to justify inclusion.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on May 20, 2017, 02:48:16 PM
He missed the cutoff by 4 attempts. I felt it was close enough to justify inclusion.

But not Jaylen Lindsey of Providence? Or Frank Mason of Kansas, who made more threes than Egor? Or Livingston of UMass-Lowell? Or Riley LaChance of Vandy? etc, etc.

It's fine to take the shortcut... I'm just noting that you did take a shortcut and made up inconsistent rules to get to #4
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 20, 2017, 02:53:23 PM
But not Jaylen Lindsey of Providence? Or Frank Mason of Kansas, who made more threes than Egor? Or Livingston of UMass-Lowell? Or Riley LaChance of Vandy? etc, etc.

It's fine to take the shortcut... I'm just noting that you did take a shortcut and made up inconsistent rules to get to #4

Honestly, I incorrectly assumed that not many others would have been as close to the cutoff as he was. My mistake. I'll repharse to he was in the top 1% for 3P%.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 20, 2017, 07:07:28 PM

We did have one this off season.  (Duane)  It really is too early to speculate about next year anyway.

And sandy and Traci in season.  Really the roster stability is no better or worse than under Buzz

And Froiling and Morrow in

So three out and two in since winter break 6 months ago.

Again, if you look at every high major program, I'll bet this is average, and way below the one-and-done schools like Duke and Kentucky.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MU82 on June 07, 2017, 01:43:23 PM
Cameron Johnson has transferred from Pitt to UNC even though Pitt is trying to block him from being available to play next season.

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article154617819.html

Here's what Jay Bilas twitted about the situation:

“Cameron Johnson GRADUATED from Pitt, and stayed at Pitt when his coach, Jamie Dixon, bolted to TCU,” Bilas recently wrote on Twitter. “Now, he's restricted? That's wrong.”

So what are you saying, Jay? That the NCAA is bursting with hypocrisy?That student-athletes get the shaft even when they are great students? That coaches preach loyalty but bolt whenever they get the itch to do so? That the system is rigged to favor the plantation owners and not the slaves?

Well, duh!
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 07, 2017, 01:49:03 PM
IF Dixon had to PAY $ to Pitt in order to leave, do you find that to be wrong as well.

Unanalogous situations (SA's & coaches)

Follow the rules. It's simple.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MU82 on June 07, 2017, 02:01:28 PM
IF Dixon had to PAY $ to Pitt in order to leave, do you find that to be wrong as well.

Unanalogous situations (SA's & coaches)

Follow the rules. It's simple.

I'm allowed to dislike a rule I consider stupid and hope it gets changed.

Bilas' point (and mine) is that Johnson was loyal to Pitt when others weren't, and his reward is getting cock-blocked by the school.

It's not against the rules, it just doesn't seem "right." To me. My opinion.

BTW, I put this here because he's a grad transfer but now I see there is a conversation about this going on in the free-agent thread. Go figure.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 07, 2017, 03:19:06 PM
Bilas' point (and mine) is that Johnson was loyal to Pitt when others weren't, and his reward is getting cock-blocked by the school.

So is he NOT being loyal to Pitt now? Smh

He's making a choice and should have to live with the rules surrounding that choice.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 07, 2017, 04:13:27 PM
So is he NOT being loyal to Pitt now? Smh

He's making a choice and should have to live with the rules surrounding that choice.


Yeah but the point is that Pitt has a choice too.  And IMO they are being unreasonable.

It's like a cop giving you a ticket for jaywalking on a street with no cars in sight.  Yeah, it's a rule.  But is the choice to enforce that rule reasonable given the circumstances?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 07, 2017, 04:24:19 PM

Yeah but the point is that Pitt has a choice too.  And IMO they are being unreasonable.

It's like a cop giving you a ticket for jaywalking on a street with no cars in sight.  Yeah, it's a rule.  But is the choice to enforce that rule reasonable given the circumstances?

In this situation, yes. "Hey, we could object to every D1 school in the nation... but we won't. We only will object to teams in our conference."

Very reasonable. And kind. #Pitt2NobelPeacePrize
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: MU82 on June 08, 2017, 03:38:30 PM
In this situation, yes. "Hey, we could object to every D1 school in the nation... but we won't. We only will object to teams in our conference."

Very reasonable. And kind. #Pitt2NobelPeacePrize

Serious, JB, I'm curious: Why do you always side with the institutions over the individuals?
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 10, 2017, 10:04:58 AM
Serious, JB, I'm curious: Why do you always side with the institutions over the individuals?

I'm not sure I do. I side with the rules.

In this situation, Pitt was following the rules. I do not find it compelling that the SA was a good student. That's not relevant to me.

I'm not a fan of the grad transfer exception. There are a few things that enable an institution to deal with it (for example, not OK'ing the immediate eligibility of Johnson in this case)... but if they do, they're still screwed because of the court of public opinion. In essence, they were unable to simply follow the rules because of the crapstorm started by whiners. Unfortunate.

As for the grad transfer exception, I continue to believe the immediate eligibility is inconsistent with other rules. If the one-year in residence requirement truly has a lot to do with letting kids get acclimated to their new school to help them in their academic life, then why do it differently for grad transfers?

The reality is many bball grad transfer start a grad program, but don't wind up getting very far. With a one-year in residence requirement for grad transfers, not only would there be consistency in theory, but it would mean two years of grad school and the ability to actually get an advanced degree.

I am agreeable to adding a year to the five-year clock for grad transfers.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 10:16:25 AM
I'm not sure I do. I side with the rules.

In this situation, Pitt was following the rules. I do not find it compelling that the SA was a good student. That's not relevant to me.

I'm not a fan of the grad transfer exception. There are a few things that enable an institution to deal with it (for example, not OK'ing the immediate eligibility of Johnson in this case)... but if they do, they're still screwed because of the court of public opinion. In essence, they were unable to simply follow the rules because of the crapstorm started by whiners. Unfortunate.

As for the grad transfer exception, I continue to believe the immediate eligibility is inconsistent with other rules. If the one-year in residence requirement truly has a lot to do with letting kids get acclimated to their new school to help them in their academic life, then why do it differently for grad transfers?

The reality is many bball grad transfer start a grad program, but don't wind up getting very far. With a one-year in residence requirement for grad transfers, not only would there be consistency in theory, but it would mean two years of grad school and the ability to actually get an advanced degree.

I am agreeable to adding a year to the five-year clock for grad transfers.


You "side with the rules."

Then list a bunch of reasons why you don't like the rules.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 10, 2017, 10:59:14 AM

You "side with the rules."

Then list a bunch of reasons why you don't like the rules.

Yes. There are many rules in life that I don't like but side with / follow.

The issue here is that people were outraged at Pitt for following the rules. That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 11:32:09 AM
Yes. There are many rules in life that I don't like but side with / follow.

The issue here is that people were outraged at Pitt for following the rules. That's ridiculous.

Because in this case "following the rule" was optional. They chose to be more restrictive.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 11:48:45 AM
As for the grad transfer exception, I continue to believe the immediate eligibility is inconsistent with other rules. If the one-year in residence requirement truly has a lot to do with letting kids get acclimated to their new school to help them in their academic life, then why do it differently for grad transfers?


Because it has nothing to do with getting kids acclimated to a new school.  It is simply an excuse to try to prevent transfers.  Kids outside of athletics transfer schools all the time.  They don't need a year to get acclimated. 

They don't have this rule with other sports or in other NCAA divisions.  They should get rid of it at D1 too.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 10, 2017, 11:54:35 AM

Because it has nothing to do with getting kids acclimated to a new school.  It is simply an excuse to try to prevent transfers.  Kids outside of athletics transfer schools all the time.  They don't need a year to get acclimated. 

They don't have this rule with other sports or in other NCAA divisions.  They should get rid of it at D1 too.

Fewer transfers is a good thing from academic perspective. Too bad you don't care about these students.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: forgetful on June 10, 2017, 12:00:30 PM

Because it has nothing to do with getting kids acclimated to a new school.  It is simply an excuse to try to prevent transfers.  Kids outside of athletics transfer schools all the time.  They don't need a year to get acclimated. 

They don't have this rule with other sports or in other NCAA divisions.  They should get rid of it at D1 too.

As someone that has advised students on transfers and followed up with them on how they progress, I can verify that transferring is difficult and takes an adjustment.  Usually students struggle in their first semester of courses after transferring, as it takes time to adapt to the new situation (and often teaching styles and methods).


That is for students that are also not adjusting to a new coach, team and the stresses of being a D1 athlete.  I know a pre-med student in a non-revenue sport that transferred to my university that I have chatted with extensively, they flat out said they were lucky not to flunk out their first semester as they were not ready for all the changes. 


In revenue sports this is often mitigated by students taking the easiest courses and lets say, kind of fake-majors, even then it is non-trivial to adjust.  That is really unfair to the student and shouldn't be being done to begin with. 


The bottom line is comparing this to non-athletes is not a fair comparison, and even then there is evidence-based merit to support sitting out a season.  You can believe that this evidence-based merit is not the reason for the rule, but even if its not the reason the NCAA really has the rule, it is still provides meaningful benefit and protection to the student-athlete.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 12:06:05 PM
Fewer transfers is a good thing from academic perspective. Too bad you don't care about these students.


Not necessarily.  I think students are savvy enough to understand what is in their best interests.  Too bad you'd rather be patronizing.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 12:08:42 PM
As someone that has advised students on transfers and followed up with them on how they progress, I can verify that transferring is difficult and takes an adjustment.  Usually students struggle in their first semester of courses after transferring, as it takes time to adapt to the new situation (and often teaching styles and methods).


That is for students that are also not adjusting to a new coach, team and the stresses of being a D1 athlete.  I know a pre-med student in a non-revenue sport that transferred to my university that I have chatted with extensively, they flat out said they were lucky not to flunk out their first semester as they were not ready for all the changes. 


In revenue sports this is often mitigated by students taking the easiest courses and lets say, kind of fake-majors, even then it is non-trivial to adjust.  That is really unfair to the student and shouldn't be being done to begin with. 


The bottom line is comparing this to non-athletes is not a fair comparison, and even then there is evidence-based merit to support sitting out a season.  You can believe that this evidence-based merit is not the reason for the rule, but even if its not the reason the NCAA really has the rule, it is still provides meaningful benefit and protection to the student-athlete.


The point is that it isn't about acclimation, or they would require it at all levels and with all sports.  They don't.  Their excuse rings hollow.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 10, 2017, 12:28:01 PM

The point is that it isn't about acclimation, or they would require it at all levels and with all sports.  They don't.  Their excuse rings hollow.

The data suggests those transfers in certain sports at certain levels have more difficulty. It doesn't ring hollow. It's reasonable and should apply to grad transfers as well.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 10, 2017, 12:35:07 PM
The data suggests those transfers in certain sports at certain levels have more difficulty. It doesn't ring hollow. It's reasonable and should apply to grad transfers as well.


It rings definitely hollow when you wish to include transfers that have already proved capable of college level work.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Jay Bee on June 10, 2017, 01:47:29 PM

It rings definitely hollow when you wish to include transfers that have already proved capable of college level work.

....many of them having never transferred before. Protect our students.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on June 10, 2017, 03:52:32 PM
I agree that transfers could use a year to get acclimated. You know who could use it more? Freshmen.  You know who needs it even more than freshmen? JUCO transfers.  If it's about getting acclimated, why isn't this a requirement for them?

Don't get me wrong,  I support making it consistent.  But JUCOs should be included too.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: wadesworld on June 10, 2017, 04:41:32 PM
Get acclimated? Are we serious? These kids are told exactly where to be and when to be there, exactly what classes to take and when to take them, etc. I'm not trying to take anything away from them as being a full time athlete along with a student is a ton of hard work, but come on. A year to get acclimated to the school? They'll get a tour of everything they will need the day they arrive on campus, have 2-3 months as some of the only people on campus over the summer, and it will be next to impossible for them to not have everything in order. Even non-revenue student athletes on partial scholarships will have the best tutors making sure they are doing plenty well not only so they are eligible to help their sports team on the court, but also for graduation rates and academic success purposes. These programs all make it so that you have to go out of your way to not be successful in the classroom because they need you to be for their own purposes.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: brewcity77 on June 10, 2017, 05:36:42 PM
I think it's just a matter of consistency. Do you need a year to get acclimated? Traditional transfers indicate yes, while JUCOs, grad transfers, and freshmen indicate no. Makes no sense having different rules depending on how you enroll.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Benny B on June 12, 2017, 02:49:26 PM
Has the thought crossed anyone else's mind that the NCAA transfer rules are what they are predominantly to prevent the AAU powerbrokers from taking over the collegiate game entirely?

Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 12, 2017, 03:10:18 PM
Has the thought crossed anyone else's mind that the NCAA transfer rules are what they are predominantly to prevent the AAU powerbrokers from taking over the collegiate game entirely?

I would imagine it is this + it prevents the free-for-all that free-agency would create in the game.  IMO both would be terrible for the sustainability/product of College BB which everyone benefits from.

I wish though that people wouldn't pretend like it is some sort of good for the player type thing (i.e. gives them time to adjust). 

Things game be good for the system but bad for a discrete individual and still be OK.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Herman Cain on June 14, 2017, 09:11:46 PM
I would imagine it is this + it prevents the free-for-all that free-agency would create in the game.  IMO both would be terrible for the sustrightbility/product of College BB which everyone benefits from.

I wish though that people wouldn't pretend like it is some sort of good for the player type thing (i.e. gives them time to adjust). 

Things game be good for the system but bad for a discrete individual and still be OK.
The transfer restrictions are helpful to existing players in that it provides a sense of institutional loyalty to players who put the time in and make the sacrifices for the program .

The rule I don't like is the 5 to play 4 rule. That screwed over guys like Wally.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on June 14, 2017, 11:31:30 PM
The transfer restrictions are helpful to existing players in that it provides a sense of institutional loyalty to players who put the time in and make the sacrifices for the program .

The rule I don't like is the 5 to play 4 rule. That screwed over guys like Wally.

Or Wally screwed over Wally. Your pick.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: GGGG on June 15, 2017, 07:18:48 AM
Regardless, Wally could have grad. transferred this year anyway.  He chose not to.
Title: Re: Graduate Transfer Options?
Post by: brewcity77 on June 15, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
The rule I don't like is the 5 to play 4 rule. That screwed over guys like Wally.

That's not true at all. I didn't like how Wally's situation was handled, mostly from an optics standpoint, but he could've graduated and played another year. It wasn't the "5 to play 4" rule, it was the "I wanna go pro when Marquette determines they've moved on from me" conscious decision.