MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: #UnleashSean on March 30, 2017, 07:33:53 PM
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Note 1: I probably missed some moments. Feel free to add them.
Note 2: These are moments that I thought Scoop overall found surprising. Not what I found to be surprising necessarily.
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Rowsey talent.
He was one I didn't want to be a priority scholarship. I was wrong.
He takes some maddening shots when in heat check mode but his overall ability to score and insane ability to draw a foul shooting a 3 is awesome.
Howard was also a bit of a surprise simply because 54% from 3 is GOD-like.
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Easily the Nova game. We were down by 17 in the second half in that game!
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Easily the Nova game. We were down by 17 in the second half in that game!
Easily this. Also missing 6/8 FT down the stretch and still coming back
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One of my most surprising things was rebounding. We had some issues but not near the level I worried about. Sam especially rebounded well towards the end I thought. He seems to have the skill of being able to nticipate where the ball is going as he always seemed to be in the right spot.
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I voted Traci's transfer. I said last year during the Henry Hoopla that Traci would end up being Wojo's most important recruit. I was obviously wrong. I thought he was this generations Tony Miller.
He left us with a glaring hole at PG, hope that gets solved, soon.
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I voted the Nova win. We have more Final Four appearances than wins over current #1 teams.
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I voted Traci's transfer. I did not see that coming.
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Big picture, I'd go with win over Nova. Even with 3 mins left I thought we had little to no chance to win - and I am the eternal optimist.
When Hauser grabbed that final rebound, I kissed my wife and said, "We had NO business winning that game ... but we did!"
That game gave us all permission to really believe MU could dance again. There were bumps in the road to get to the dance after it, but that win paved the way.
On a smaller basis, Rowsey's first left-handed 4-point play was absolutely amazing. One of those, "Did I really see what I just saw?" things. Had to watch the replay a jillion times!
But really, most of the individual stuff on that list was pretty darn surprising. I mean, I wouldn't have believed Heldt would start over a healthy Luke, that's for sure.
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Big picture, I'd go with win over Nova. Even with 3 mins left I thought we had little to no chance to win - and I am the eternal optimist.
When Hauser grabbed that final rebound, I kissed my wife and said, "We had NO business winning that game ... but we did!"
That game gave us all permission to really believe MU could dance again. There were bumps in the road to get to the dance after it, but that win paved the way.
On a smaller basis, Rowsey's first left-handed 4-point play was absolutely amazing. One of those, "Did I really see what I just saw?" things. Had to watch the replay a jillion times!
But really, most of the individual stuff on that list was pretty darn surprising. I mean, I wouldn't have believed Heldt would start over a healthy Luke, that's for sure.
Seconded, it really was a good year.
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I voted Nova, not that we won (picked that preseason) but rather how we won. For long stretches we just couldn't get over the hump, then we had six near perfect minutes. Just amazing.
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I voted Traci's transfer. I said last year during the Henry Hoopla that Traci would end up being Wojo's most important recruit. I was obviously wrong. I thought he was this generations Tony Miller.
He left us with a glaring hole at PG, hope that gets solved, soon.
Yah, who would want that Markus Howard guy. ::)
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I disagree with the pg hole. I don't think we've seen better pg play since diener
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Delete
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I paused for a while over the Nova win, but I went with Heldt taking the starting center position from Luke.
GooooMarquette's observation that MU has more final fours than wins over #1 ranked teams seems to suggest that that win would have been more surprising, but MU has had a lot more opportunities to get to a final four (every time we've made the NCAA) compared to opportunities to play the #1 ranked team. You can pretty much expect a team to play above themselves at least once a season and beat someone they have little chance to beat. And, conversely, you should expect an inexplicable loss about that often, too. And those two possibilities are doubly true when you have a team where exceptional three point shooting anchors the offense.
Luke was a highly recruited center who had started from the moment he had become eligible to play at MU, a period of over two years. Last year Heldt wasn't even Luke's primary backup and played largely garbage minutes. Shortly before he got the starting nod, a poster here even called him a Division III center. I can't think of a bigger upset in terms of a player taking over a starting spot since I began to follow MU basketball in the '75-'76 season, although I bet that that topic would itself make for a great thread. Let's give Matt the proper props for an extraordinary achievement.
Matt would be doing better if he didn't have two surprises in contention - the other being his double double - splitting his vote.
Now if you're going for "What surprising moment made you happiest?", the Nova win would have to be the answer to that.
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Wait until tomorrow, April fools day, when we learn that Wojo and Stan are already in Indiana.
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Starting no matta. Erik Williams started over Jae Crowder. Otule over Gardner. A coach can start anyone just to do something for strategy. Keep Crowder out of foul trouble. Otule for jump ball and early defense.
Heldt started over Fischer for a spark of hustle and toughness. Same with Wilson over Johnson.
Now, if Heldt statistically outperformed Fischer all year long that would be a huge surprise. But being a nominal starter does not. I've seen several nominal starters over the years.
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Yah, who would want that Markus Howard guy. ::)
Right now he's a 2. I love him but that's what he is.
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To me, the second most surprising moment (I voted for the Villanova win) was when Wojo completely sat JjJ against Xavier.
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I went with the Nova win also, but Rowsey winning the sixth man was a huge accomplishment this year. We knew he could score and hoped he'd help our shooting, but he was fun to watch. He won some games for us and was much better at going to the hoop as well.
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Starting no matta. Erik Williams started over Jae Crowder. Otule over Gardner. A coach can start anyone just to do something for strategy. Keep Crowder out of foul trouble. Otule for jump ball and early defense.
Heldt started over Fischer for a spark of hustle and toughness. Same with Wilson over Johnson.
Now, if Heldt statistically outperformed Fischer all year long that would be a huge surprise. But being a nominal starter does not. I've seen several nominal starters over the years.
Yep. And when you look at the games toward the end of the season when Luke's minutes were decreasing, the biggest factor was fouls, not Matt. Like the 4-game stretch against X, SJU, PC and X - it would be easy to attribute Luke's <20 minutes in each to Matt...but just as easy to note that he had 5, 5, 5 and 4 fouls in those games.
Don't get me wrong - I am thrilled with Matt's development toward the end of the season, and look forward to a good two years. But as Lazar notes, the starting was due to hustle. The minutes were more due to Luke's fouls.
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Easily this. Also missing 6/8 FT down the stretch and still coming back
Ft's no matta, doing JB's work
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Right now he's a 2. I love him but that's what he is.
Markus is as much a 2 as Travis "starting Final Four point guard/5 years in the NBA as a point guard" Diener was a 2.
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Markus is as much a 2 as Travis "starting Final Four point guard/5 years in the NBA as a point guard" Diener was a 2.
Yeah I don't get this. We have a freshman PG that can SCORE! And since he can score he's a 2?
Are we only allowed to consider PG's as people who have more assists than points?
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Yeah I don't get this. We have a freshman PG that can SCORE! And since he can score he's a 2?
Are we only allowed to consider PG's as people who have more assists than points?
Put me in the camp of Howard being a 2. To me, a PG looks to get everyone involved on offense, get the ball to people where they can do damage, and can be counted on as the main ball handler against a press. That's not really Howard. I think he's fantastic, but I just think of him as a 2 playing the point. He's a PG only in the sense that he brings the ball up across half court a lot when he's in he game.
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Yeah I don't get this. We have a freshman PG that can SCORE! And since he can score he's a 2?
Are we only allowed to consider PG's as people who have more assists than points?
He's an average ball-handler and doesn't create a lot for others (2.3 asts/gm). At this juncture, he's a much better scoring guard than he is a true, run-the-show point guard. He'll get there though. The aforementioned Travis Diener only averaged 2.6 assists as a frosh in about 1.7 more minutes/game. He saw that number jump to 5.6 as a soph when his minutes went up by nearly 50%.
Let's not forget, Markus just turned 18 ;)
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This is an easy one to decide.
Look at your choices. Out of all of them, which one would you have called someone insane if they had posted it as a prediction before the beginning of the season.
Beating Nova when they were ranked #1? I would have told the poster to put down the crack pipe. Not even optimism can account for that level of - shall I say it - hubris.
Matty H. taking over as starter would have been a reasonably close 2nd place.
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Starting no matta. Erik Williams started over Jae Crowder. Otule over Gardner. A coach can start anyone just to do something for strategy. Keep Crowder out of foul trouble. Otule for jump ball and early defense.
Heldt started over Fischer for a spark of hustle and toughness. Same with Wilson over Johnson.
Now, if Heldt statistically outperformed Fischer all year long that would be a huge surprise. But being a nominal starter does not. I've seen several nominal starters over the years.
Buzz Williams is still MU's coach? I did not know that. Heldt started over Fischer for defense.
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Put me in the camp of Howard being a 2. To me, a PG looks to get everyone involved on offense, get the ball to people where they can do damage, and can be counted on as the main ball handler against a press. That's not really Howard. I think he's fantastic, but I just think of him as a 2 playing the point. He's a PG only in the sense that he brings the ball up across half court a lot when he's in he game.
I think the Warriors are cool with Steph Curry shooting first as their point guard, the Celtics are probably fine with IT shooting first as their point guard, etc.
Today's ideal point guards are no longer the Derrick Wilson's of the world. You need guys who can spread the floor with the shot at the guard positions.
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Buzz Williams is still MU's coach? I did not know that. Heldt started over Fischer for defense.
I don't understand. Where did I say Buzz was still the coach? I used examples of a coach using nominal starters. Just happens to be a coach we're familiar with. Not sure why you inferred what you did.
I'll agree that Heldt's defense was also a factor in his starting, but his hustle and toughness are a big part of Heldt's defense.
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I think it's hilarious that the narrative of Derrick Junior and Mo were that they weren't good Offensive PGs like D James and Deiner were but now we have a good offensive PG and we refuse to call him a PG and are even changing the narrative on Deiner to being a 2. Will we be saying James was a 2 next? What about Tony Smith? He was extremely dynamic offensively
Point guards are allowed to score, Rose, Curry, Westbrook and many many more are examples.
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I think the Warriors are cool with Steph Curry shooting first as their point guard, the Celtics are probably fine with IT shooting first as their point guard, etc.
Today's ideal point guards are no longer the Derrick Wilson's of the world. You need guys who can spread the floor with the shot at the guard positions.
I don't disagree. The way I look at it, we don't have a PG. I'm not sure whether that's a good or bad thing.
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I don't understand how anyone is picking the Nova win.
If I had told you two things before the season.....
1. Marquette beats #1 Villanova at home
2. Markus Howard breaks the freshman 3 point record at MU, leads the nation in 3P percentage at 55%
The vast majority of you would have said #2 is less surprising? Not buying it.
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I don't disagree. The way I look at it, we don't have a PG. I'm not sure whether that's a good or bad thing.
But by the definition outlined by everyone. Then Derrick Wilson was the best pg we've ever had. He never scored more then he dished out.
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Scoring is irrelevant to the PG / SG question --- what's not irrelevant is handling the press.
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I don't understand how anyone is picking the Nova win.
If I had told you two things before the season.....
1. Marquette beats #1 Villanova at home
2. Markus Howard breaks the freshman 3 point record at MU, leads the nation in 3P percentage at 55%
The vast majority of you would have said #2 is less surprising? Not buying it.
Completely agree. It is not just that Howard shot well from 3, but he did it at an almost unprecedented level. And, that's over an entire season.
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I don't understand how anyone is picking the Nova win.
If I had told you two things before the season.....
1. Marquette beats #1 Villanova at home
2. Markus Howard breaks the freshman 3 point record at MU, leads the nation in 3P percentage at 55%
The vast majority of you would have said #2 is less surprising? Not buying it.
I think if you add in a Matt Heldt Double-Double during conference play it would have also outperformed Nova.
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Scoring is irrelevant to the PG / SG question --- what's not irrelevant is handling the press.
So how a player handles something he'll see...what, maybe 5-10% of the possessions he plays, determines what position he is? Interesting.
That's like saying how a post player handles being doubled on the first dribble in the post determines whether or not he's a 5.
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So how a player handles something he'll see...what, maybe 5-10% of the possessions he plays, determines what position he is? Interesting.
That's like saying how a post player handles being doubled on the first dribble in the post determines whether or not he's a 5.
How he handles being Doubled on the second Dribble determines his effectiveness here:
(http://cdn.niketalk.com/8/87/8790ad2e_Double_Dribble_-_1990_-_Konami.jpeg)
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I don't understand how anyone is picking the Nova win.
If I had told you two things before the season.....
1. Marquette beats #1 Villanova at home
2. Markus Howard breaks the freshman 3 point record at MU, leads the nation in 3P percentage at 55%
The vast majority of you would have said #2 is less surprising? Not buying it.
That's a fair point. But I guess what happened is we got used to Markus being Markus so right now, when we're doing the voting, the Nova win sticks out as "Holy shyte ... did I see that?!?!?!"
2 other points ...
1. I am one who agrees that starter no matta. But Heldt was neither Erik Williams nor Reggie Smith. He played a lot of minutes and he generally played well in his starts. Even if some of the mins came because Luke promptly got in foul trouble upon entering games, Heldt still earned plenty of mins.
I admit now that I was stunned to see him become a fairly dependable big man.
Unfortunately, that was not the case in our final game, when he reverted to what I feared he would be. I sure hope he is more like the Heldt from his first several starts than the deer-in-headlights, fumble-fingered Heldt from our loss to the 'Cocks. Anybody can have a bad game and/or be stuck in bad matchups; I hope that's all it was.
2. All this PG talk is silly. Who was the Bulls' PG when they won six NBA titles? It sure as heck wasn't Armstrong, Paxson or Harper. Who was Duke's PG this season? They didn't really have one by several Scoopers' definitions. Who was Kentucky's PG this season? Fox sure seemed to have the ball more than anybody else. More often than not, Bird - not Ainge or Johnson - was the Celtics' facilitator.
Our most effective press-breaker easily was Katin. Was he the PG then?
As for "today's ideal point guards are no longer the Derrick Wilsons of the world" ... Derrick was NEVER an ideal PG, not in any era since peach baskets were abandoned. Couldn't create, mediocre passer, couldn't shoot. Not to get Ners' blood boiling again, but it will be a very bad sign if we ever have another PG like him.
Look, we FINALLY have a PG who can score and people want to label him as something else or shoehorn him into some kind of outdated definition. I am 100% thrilled with Markus' season and his progression. He made some crappy TOs, but he will get better.
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That's a fair point. But I guess what happened is we got used to Markus being Markus so right now, when we're doing the voting, the Nova win sticks out as "Holy shyte ... did I see that?!?!?!"
Agree. The poll asks about the "most surprising moment." When the last game ended and Marcus was still on top, it wasn't very surprising.