MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: WesMatthewsFanClub on March 25, 2017, 11:37:56 AM
-
Per Jeff Goodman and more on Twitter.
A much better get than Alford, right?
-
Coaches no matta, ai na?
-
Flyers learnt 'bout dis on ESPN, hey?
-
Great hire for IU, although the similarities to Crean will surely turn some old school Hoosier fans off. Young, energetic coach, from the Midwest, from a Catholic school, with a single deep tournament run.
Some fans will be disappointed that they didn't get a Billy Donovan, or a Tony Bennett, or a Brad Stevens, but none of those candidates were really available or really interested.
If I'm Crean, I would be very interested in the Dayton job. Strong fan base, Midwestern city, strong basketball program, and he could coach there for the rest of his career - and he'd be appreciated there.
-
Do we talk to Kin in the near future?...
-
Whither Kostas?
-
Duz Giannis have eligibility left, hey?
-
I wonder how UDPride is? His thoughts would be entertaining.
-
I wonder how UDPride is? His thoughts would be entertaining.
Friend of a friend told me that he's outraged about Miller leaving, but can't post because he's been having some computer troubles
(https://computersciguy.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/fat-computer-geek.jpg)
-
The Bloomington barbers are happy as they won't need to learn any new hair techniques...
(http://img.scout.com/sites/default/files/2017/02/16/Miller.jpg?w=620&h=413&fit=max)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Illinimamma/crean2.jpg)
-
Let me argue this is a terrible hire tantamount to IU admitting they are a formerly elite team and now in the class of tOSU, Purdue and Iowa ... an upper half Big Ten 10 team but nothing special.
First, in this post is Crean's 9 year record at IU, compared to MU.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53996.0
They are remarkably similar, showing rankings, including top 10 and even no. 1. They even weeks in the top 5 this year and were the 11th best team last year per KenPom. Yet none of this was good enough.
Second, their was stories they would pay Alford's nearly $8 million buyout and pay nearly $6 million a year for a new coach.
So given all this they took Archie Miller. I have not heard terms but i'm guessing he is not breaking the bank.
If Miller finishes 18th next year and get the second round of the tournament, is that a successful year? That's what Crean was more or less giving them (Crean was S16 last year) and he was shown the door.
Anyone want to make case Archie is going to 4 FF in the next 7 years. I cannot see it.
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
What's wrong with this argument?
-
Let me argue this is a terrible hire tantamount to IU admitting they are a formerly elite team and now in the class of tOSU, Purdue and Iowa ... an upper half Big Ten 10 team but nothing special.
First, in this post is Crean's 9 year record at IU, compared to MU.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53996.0
They are remarkably similar, showing rankings, including top 10 and even no. 1. They even weeks in the top 5 this year and were the 11th best team last year per KenPom. Yet none of this was good enough.
Second, their was stories they would pay Alford's nearly $8 million buyout and pay nearly $6 million a year for a new coach.
So given all this they took Archie Miller. I have not heard terms but i'm guessing he is not breaking the bank.
If Miller finishes 18th next year and get the second round of the tournament, is that a successful year? That's what Crean was more or less giving them (Crean was S16 last year) and he was shown the door.
Anyone want to make case Archie is going to 4 FF in the next 7 years. I cannot see it.
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
What's wrong with this argument?
....you forgot Horishima!
-
Let me argue this is a terrible hire tantamount to IU admitting they are a formerly elite team and now in the class of tOSU, Purdue and Iowa ... an upper half Big Ten 10 team but nothing special.
First, in this post is Crean's 9 year record at IU, compared to MU.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53996.0
They are remarkably similar, showing rankings, including top 10 and even no. 1. They even weeks in the top 5 this year and were the 11th best team last year per KenPom. Yet none of this was good enough.
Second, their was stories they would pay Alford's nearly $8 million buyout and pay nearly $6 million a year for a new coach.
So given all this they took Archie Miller. I have not heard terms but i'm guessing he is not breaking the bank.
If Miller finishes 18th next year and get the second round of the tournament, is that a successful year? That's what Crean was more or less giving them (Crean was S16 last year) and he was shown the door.
Anyone want to make case Archie is going to 4 FF in the next 7 years. I cannot see it.
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
What's wrong with this argument?
What's wrong with it is that you have absolutely no idea how Archie Miller will do at Indiana.
He might end up being the second best coach they've ever had ... or he might be way worse than the guy they just fired.
Is going to 4 FF in 7 years the only sign of success at Indiana? Has Duke gone to 4 FF the last 7 years? Has UNC? Have K and Roy failed?
Miller obviously knows how to coach a little bit, and how to recruit, too. To say with such certainty that hiring him relegates Indiana to "formerly elite," well that's a very Smuggles thing to do.
I mean, the last time you were this certain about something was when you said AAPL wasn't a buy in the low-$90s.
-
Any hire is a dice roll. Any time you fire a coach and go looking for a new one, there is a chance that you get a Matt Doherty, a Bob Dukiet, Chris Mack, a Shaka Smart. Every fanbase is delusional enough to think that they can do better. The truth is, there simply aren't that many elite coaches out there. Most of the time, fanbases feel like they settled. And good coaches can be bad fits. Rich Rod. Or can't miss candidates suck. Charlie Weis. Even the hood got fired. So did Francona.
-
What's wrong with it is that you have absolutely no idea how Archie Miller will do at Indiana.
He might end up being the second best coach they've ever had ... or he might be way worse than the guy they just fired.
Is going to 4 FF in 7 years the only sign of success at Indiana? Has Duke gone to 4 FF the last 7 years? Has UNC? Have K and Roy failed?
Miller obviously knows how to coach a little bit, and how to recruit, too. To say with such certainty that hiring him relegates Indiana to "formerly elite," well that's a very Smuggles thing to do.
I mean, the last time you were this certain about something was when you said AAPL wasn't a buy in the low-$90s.
Do you agree that Miller has to do better than Crean to be a success? Merely repeating Crean's success ... consistently ranked and visiting the S16 every few years will not be good enough as Crean did that and he was shown the door.
I agree with you no one has an idea how good he is. But if they whiff on this hire, defined as repeating Crean's success, only old guys in depends will remember they were elite.
-
only old guys in depends will remember they were elite.
This is already the case.
-
Any hire is a dice roll. Any time you fire a coach and go looking for a new one, there is a chance that you get a Matt Doherty, a Bob Dukiet, Chris Mack, a Shaka Smart. Every fanbase is delusional enough to think that they can do better. The truth is, there simply aren't that many elite coaches out there. Most of the time, fanbase feel lime they settled. And good coaches can be bad fits. Rich Rod. Or can't miss candidates suck. Charlie Weis. Even the hood got fired. So did Francona.
100% agree on this. But Indiana considers itself elite. Crean did not deliver elite results which is why he's the former coach. So if the next coach doesn't deliver it elite results everyone will forget they were really program
-
What's wrong with this argument?
Everything.
-
If I'm Crean, I would be very interested in the Dayton job. Strong fan base, Midwestern city, strong basketball program, and he could coach there for the rest of his career - and he'd be appreciated there.
Virtual coach swap?
I can't think of any examples where this has happened. Anyone?
-
Let me argue this is a terrible hire tantamount to IU admitting they are a formerly elite team and now in the class of tOSU, Purdue and Iowa ... an upper half Big Ten 10 team but nothing special.
First, in this post is Crean's 9 year record at IU, compared to MU.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53996.0
They are remarkably similar, showing rankings, including top 10 and even no. 1. They even weeks in the top 5 this year and were the 11th best team last year per KenPom. Yet none of this was good enough.
Second, their was stories they would pay Alford's nearly $8 million buyout and pay nearly $6 million a year for a new coach.
So given all this they took Archie Miller. I have not heard terms but i'm guessing he is not breaking the bank.
If Miller finishes 18th next year and get the second round of the tournament, is that a successful year? That's what Crean was more or less giving them (Crean was S16 last year) and he was shown the door.
Anyone want to make case Archie is going to 4 FF in the next 7 years. I cannot see it.
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
What's wrong with this argument?
Do you really see tOSU, Purdue, and Iowa in the same class? I would argue tOSU has been the second best program in the BIG over my lifetime (25 years). Indiana is a basketball rich state, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that the Indiana program begins and ends with Bob Knight.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being tOSU if you're Indiana. In fact, had Crean been as successful as Matta has been at tOSU, he'd likely still be employed. The sooner the Indiana faithful see it this way (and they seem to with the hiring of Archie), the better.
-
Do you really see tOSU, Purdue, and Iowa in the same class? I would argue tOSU has been the second best program in the BIG over my lifetime (25 years). Indiana is a basketball rich state, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that the Indiana program begins and ends with Bob Knight.
It is not reasonable to suggest that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_McCracken
I don't think there's anything wrong with being tOSU if you're Indiana. In fact, had Crean been as successful as Matta has been at tOSU, he'd likely still be employed. The sooner the Indiana faithful see it this way (and they seem to with the hiring of Archie), the better.
This is correct however.
-
Do you really see tOSU, Purdue, and Iowa in the same class? I would argue tOSU has been the second best program in the BIG over my lifetime (25 years). Indiana is a basketball rich state, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that the Indiana program begins and ends with Bob Knight.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being tOSU if you're Indiana. In fact, had Crean been as successful as Matta has been at tOSU, he'd likely still be employed. The sooner the Indiana faithful see it this way (and they seem to with the hiring of Archie), the better.
Agree that tOSU is good - clearly better than Iowa and Purdue, but I'd argue that both UW and MSU have been better. Maybe if you lean more heavily on the earlier part of that 25 years, they be up with UW...but if you look at the whole picture or pay more attention to the latter part, not so much. And the trajectory of tOSU isn't good. Three straight B14 titles a few years back, but the last four seasons they have finished 4th, 6th, 7th and 9th. Kinda doubt the IU fans are looking for that....
-
Agree that tOSU is good - clearly better than Iowa and Purdue, but I'd argue that both UW and MSU have been better. Maybe if you lean more heavily on the earlier part of that 25 years, they be up with UW...but if you look at the whole picture or pay more attention to the latter part, not so much. And the trajectory of tOSU isn't good. Three straight B14 titles a few years back, but the last four seasons they have finished 4th, 6th, 7th and 9th. Kinda doubt the IU fans are looking for that....
MSU is the given I think. As far as Wisconsin vs tOSU, tOSU has more conference championships, more conference tournament championships. Wisconsin has more Sweet 16 appearances and total NCAA tournament appearances. They have the same number of Elite 8 appearances, Final 4s, and NCAA runner-ups. Based on trajectory, I would say Wisconsin is the better program right now (and arguably over the last quarter-century), though I'd argue tOSU is the better job with more resources. I could see Chris Mack being incredibly successful at tOSU if he were interested when Thad is gone.
You're right about IU fans not being satisfied with finishes of 4th, 6th, 7th, and 9th. I'm sure tOSU fans are not either.
-
It is not reasonable to suggest that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_McCracken
I should have prefaced my statement with "in the modern era". The championships in the 50s are a big part of the history of IU basketball, but I don't think they should play any role in the expectation of a program in the 21st century. Maybe I'm off here.
-
Do you agree that Miller has to do better than Crean to be a success? Merely repeating Crean's success ... consistently ranked and visiting the S16 every few years will not be good enough as Crean did that and he was shown the door.
I agree with you no one has an idea how good he is. But if they whiff on this hire, defined as repeating Crean's success, only old guys in depends will remember they were elite.
OK, I agree with these hypotheticals. Yes, if he is no better than Crean, he won't be considered a success by HoosierLand.
I actually agreed with many of the what-ifs in your earlier post ... until you got to the certainty part:
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
No hypothetical question there. No facts, either. Just one guy's opinion.
And that's OK if it's presented as such. It wasn't. It was presented as, "I'm effen Smuggles, and I say Archie Miller will be such a failure that it's obvious IU is giving up."
-
Do you really see tOSU, Purdue, and Iowa in the same class? I would argue tOSU has been the second best program in the BIG over my lifetime (25 years). Indiana is a basketball rich state, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that the Indiana program begins and ends with Bob Knight.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being tOSU if you're Indiana. In fact, had Crean been as successful as Matta has been at tOSU, he'd likely still be employed. The sooner the Indiana faithful see it this way (and they seem to with the hiring of Archie), the better.
Year-End KenPom Rankings
Year OSU IU UW MSU
2011 1 82 6 45
2012 2 9 8 3
2013 7 3 12 10
2014 19 63 5 9
2015 19 48 2 15
2016 72 11 38 5
2017 76 47 21 40
Avg. 28 38 13 18
5Yr Avg 39 34 16 16
For this metric, Bucky has been the elite Big 10 team the last seven years (and I explained why that is over in another thread). Followed by MSU.
IU and tOSU are very similar. Further, tOSU has been sliding for 6 seasons. Yet Crean was fired and Matta is highly thought of.
It's all about expectations. IU thinks their results are not good enough whereas similar results by tOSU have people like you thinking they are elite. The reality is tOSU is not even elite in the Big 10, let along Division 1. Only Bucky and MSU have been elite.
Crean delivered Matta type results and in Bloomington that was a sin so he was fired. Now IU thinks things are going to better with Dayton's coach.
Good luck with that.
-
OK, I agree with these hypotheticals. Yes, if he is no better than Crean, he won't be considered a success by HoosierLand.
I actually agreed with many of the what-ifs in your earlier post ... until you got to the certainty part:
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
No hypothetical question there. No facts, either. Just one guy's opinion.
And that's OK if it's presented as such. It wasn't. It was presented as, "I'm effen Smuggles, and I say Archie Miller will be such a failure that it's obvious IU is giving up."
That was clearly an opinion and presented as such. It was even followed up with a question asking if you agreed.
The problem is you're so insanely jealous of me and gleefully throw in the Apple call in very response because it makes your inadequate existence feel better.
If it makes you feel better, I have worse calls than that Apple call every month, something every week. I bought Bank of America two weeks ago, look it up. Buy I also aggressively shorted Brent Crude Oil a month ago, look it up. Can't be afraid of an opinion being wrong. Gotta keep smuggling along.
-
That was clearly an opinion and presented as such. It was even followed up with a question asking if you agreed.
The problem is you're so insanely jealous of me and gleefully throw in the Apple call in very response because it makes your inadequate existence feel better.
If it makes you feel better, I have worse calls than that Apple call every month, something every week. I bought Bank of America two weeks ago, look it up. Buy I also aggressively shorted Brent Crude Oil a month ago, look it up. Can't be afraid of an opinion being wrong. Gotta keep smuggling along.
Everybody who calls you out for your BS is jealous of you.
Wait ... not just jealous but "insanely jealous." Got it.
Sadly, this will be our last exchange. As soon as I hit the "Post" button, I will be killing myself. I have such an inadequate existence, I can't possibly go on. I just have to decide what to wear.
-
Year-End KenPom Rankings
Year OSU IU UW MSU
2011 1 82 6 45
2012 2 9 8 3
2013 7 3 12 10
2014 19 63 5 9
2015 19 48 2 15
2016 72 11 38 5
2017 76 47 21 40
Avg. 28 38 13 18
5Yr Avg 39 34 16 16
For this metric, Bucky has been the elite Big 10 team the last seven years (and I explained why that is over in another thread). Followed by MSU.
Okay, let's back up for a second and emphasize that you are using one metric to define what is "elite" and what is not. Using a number of other metrics (conference championships, conference tournament championships, NCAA appearances, Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, Final 4s, and national runners-up) you'll see tOSU is very similar to MSU and Wisconsin in terms of success, outpacing each in multiple categories. You'll also notice that Indiana has not sustained the same type of success.
(see below attachment, results dating back to 2007)
IU and tOSU are very similar. Further, tOSU has been sliding for 6 seasons. Yet Crean was fired and Matta is highly thought of.
These results show why Matta is highly thought of, however, I also think you underestimate how fed up tOSU fans are with the slip in performance.
It's all about expectations. IU thinks their results are not good enough whereas similar results by tOSU have people like you thinking they are elite. The reality is tOSU is not even elite in the Big 10, let along Division 1. Only Bucky and MSU have been elite.
Crean delivered Matta type results and in Bloomington that was a sin so he was fired. Now IU thinks things are going to better with Dayton's coach.
Good luck with that.
Again, no Crean did not produce Matta-type results. If he did, he would likely still be employed. I also never claimed that tOSU is elite, but they are closer to being elite than you give them credit for (especially if Wisconsin is thought of as elite).
-
If you allow Crean a couple of years for rebuilding, Crean's record over the last 5 to 7 years was the same as Matta's record.
The problem with your metrics is you look at NCAA tourney and triple count deep runs. Look at overall season success, like KenPom or your conference championship wins and you will find that tOSU was elite several years ago and is no more. tOSU has been on a long slide and now has two straight years without a NCAA appearance and three straight years in the bottom half of the Big Ten.
Or consider this, Matta has been tOSU's head coach since 2004. His previous stops were Butler and Xavier. Right now (again last 5 to 7 years) both Butler and Xavier are more successful programs.
-------
This is the myth that Crean exploded. As I noted in the MU/IU thread, Crean did no better at IU than MU, even though most thought IU was a better program. It was a better program, but it is not anymore. In my opinion, hiring Archie Miller only underscores the "me too" status that IU now has in the Big Ten.
Ditto what Matta has done at tOSU since Butler's first run to the final game in 2010 ... he has shown that both Butler and Xavier are now better than tOSU.
The only reason Mack or Holtman would leave for tOSU is a naked money grab. It's a lateral move at best.
-
Okay, let's back up for a second and emphasize that you are using one metric to define what is "elite" and what is not. Using a number of other metrics (conference championships, conference tournament championships, NCAA appearances, Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, Final 4s, and national runners-up) you'll see tOSU is very similar to MSU and Wisconsin in terms of success, outpacing each in multiple categories. You'll also notice that Indiana has not sustained the same type of success.
Those numbers, combined with the KP ratings, tell me the following:
When tOSU is good, they're really good to excellent.
When they aren't, they are mediocre to bad.
When UW or MSU are good, they're really good to excellent.
When they aren't, they are still pretty good.
That's why I'd put both UW and MSU ahead of tOSU - consistency. Lately, IU has looked more like tOSU, and that's why Crean was fired. If Miller does the same, he will likely be fired too.
-
tOSU is on a "long slide"? They won an NCAA game 2 years ago. Last year they weren't great but still won 21 games. Until last year, Matta had missed the NCAA once in his 10 years at OSU, the year after he lost Conley and Oden to the NBA, and he won the NIT that year. In his time at OSU, he has more conference championships and more B10 tourney championships than both UW and MSU. He missed badly on the senior class this year and the last two years show it. But to act like OSU has been a declining mess with a lower floor than UW or MSU is silly. Izzo made 3 NCAAs in that time going .500 in the B10. And UW was one of the last teams in 2 years with under 20 wins, not much separating that from an NIT berth.
-
From a good friend and Dayton alum with a long history as sports directors at midwest television stations.... Anthony Grant to Dayton.
Heisie, upon reflection, you and I are more in agreement on this issue than usual. We view it from different angles and I disagree with your initial conclusion, however. Miller is a solid hire and is probably the absolute best IU could have gotten. His hiring is not a sign that IU has given up. It is a sign that there simply aren't any available home run/no brainer hires. But that speaks more to an irrational reading of available coaches by the IU faithful and fanbases in general.
As fans, we always assume the next coach is the solution. There simply are not that many program changing coaches out there. For example, if K were to unexpectedly step down today and Wojo left for Duke tomorrow, what would MU's options be? Our fans would rant and rave and speculate and demand, but in the end, how many coaches out there who can take MU to where MU fans want to be and who would come to MU? Stan? Pleasing MUFiNY but ultimately just another unproven assistant? Wardle? Experienced mid-major coach with MU ties? Groce? Crean? Marshall? The pool of great coaches simply isn't that deep.
So, I guess my perspective on coaching changes boils down to two thoughts. 1. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. 2. No matter how hot the girl, somewhere there is a guy who just doesn't want to listen to her anymore.
-
Archie is a fine hire, but he's a step down from Crean. In terms of resume, Crean at least brought a Final Four, something Archie hasn't done. He recruited better here than Archie did at Dayton. He had proven he could win in a high major conference. I'm not saying Archie couldn't be great, but at the time of hiring, he's at best a poor man's Tom Crean.
This is a what have you done for me lately business. Crean won league titles, went to Sweet 16s, and one down year because his first round pick got injured and he's out. Maybe he wasn't popular with some people, but that program was dead when he arrived.
Indiana owes a huge debt to Tom Crean. I don't know that they'll ever recapture what they were under Knight, but if they change coaches after every down year, they certainly won't. I never went out of my way to cheer for IU with Crean, but I definitely won't cheer them now.
-
Archie Miller is a great hire by IU. He will kill it in Bloomington. He's much more "Indiana" than Crean was. Crean is a phony and his entire personality is gleamed from leadership books. Miller is the kind of intense basketball lifer that Hoosier fans will love. He'll have the local kids back on campus in no time.
-
Archie Miller is a great hire by IU. He will kill it in Bloomington. He's much more "Indiana" than Crean was. Crean is a phony and his entire personality is gleamed from leadership books. Miller is the kind of intense basketball lifer that Hoosier fans will love. He'll have the local kids back on campus in no time.
I assume, then, that your username is ironic.
-
From a good friend and Dayton alum with a long history as sports directors at midwest television stations.... Anthony Grant to Dayton.
Heisie, upon reflection, you and I are more in agreement on this issue than usual. We view it from different angles and I disagree with your initial conclusion, however. Miller is a solid hire and is probably the absolute best IU could have gotten. His hiring is not a sign that IU has given up. It is a sign that there simply aren't any available home run/no brainer hires. But that speaks more to an irrational reading of available coaches by the IU faithful and fanbases in general.
As fans, we always assume the next coach is the solution. There simply are not that many program changing coaches out there. For example, if K were to unexpectedly step down today and Wojo left for Duke tomorrow, what would MU's options be? Our fans would rant and rave and speculate and demand, but in the end, how many coaches out there who can take MU to where MU fans want to be and who would come to MU? Stan? Pleasing MUFiNY but ultimately just another unproven assistant? Wardle? Experienced mid-major coach with MU ties? Groce? Crean? Marshall? The pool of great coaches simply isn't that deep.
So, I guess my perspective on coaching changes boils down to two thoughts. 1. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. 2. No matter how hot the girl, somewhere there is a guy who just doesn't want to listen to her anymore.
Then did IU make a mistake? TDid they did think because their spot opened up that "big name" coaches would beat a path to their door? And the fact that they did not speaks volumes as to the state of IU basketball.
Archie could turn out to be a great hire. But, going into it, it is hard to see how he is a clear improvement over Crean. He is not, they just have to hope they get lucky.
-
Only time will tell. No predictions. I believe that Miller is a better defensive coach and will run a less turnover prone offense. If he is able to leverage the IU name to recruit 4-5 stars to play his system, he could do very well. Or he could tank. Where is that coin?
-
Archie could turn out to be a great hire. But, going into it, it is hard to see how he is a clear improvement over Crean. He is not, they just have to hope they get lucky.
He is a clear improvement over Crean because he's not Crean.
Indiana will be back in the top 10 within 3 years.
Kelvin Sampson, who is unfairly vilified IMO, had them ranked like #3 or #4. Indiana recruits itself. Only a tool like Crean could alienate a fan base and all the HS coaches in the state.
Miller is a perfect fit.
-
:P
He is a clear improvement over Crean because he's not Crean.
Indiana will be back in the top 10 within 3 years.
Kelvin Sampson, who is unfairly vilified IMO, had them ranked like #3 or #4. Indiana recruits itself. Only a tool like Crean could alienate a fan base and all the HS coaches in the state.
Miller is a perfect fit.
Thanks for stopping by Arch.
-
He is a clear improvement over Crean because he's not Crean.
Indiana will be back in the top 10 within 3 years.
Kelvin Sampson, who is unfairly vilified IMO, had them ranked like #3 or #4. Indiana recruits itself. Only a tool like Crean could alienate a fan base and all the HS coaches in the state.
Miller is a perfect fit.
Hmm, yeah, pretty sure Crean had them ranked #1.
-
He is a clear improvement over Crean because he's not Crean.
Indiana will be back in the top 10 within 3 years.
Kelvin Sampson, who is unfairly vilified IMO, had them ranked like #3 or #4. Indiana recruits itself. Only a tool like Crean could alienate a fan base and all the HS coaches in the state.
Miller is a perfect fit.
Indiana was in the top 10 three months ago (December). In fact they went all the way to #3 just after Thanksgiving. They were also top 10 last year.
So you're arguing that Archie will make them worse over the next three years.
And if Archie gets them in the top 10 in three years, he too is three months away from getting fired.
-
He is a clear improvement over Crean because he's not Crean.
Indiana will be back in the top 10 within 3 years.
Kelvin Sampson, who is unfairly vilified IMO, had them ranked like #3 or #4. Indiana recruits itself. Only a tool like Crean could alienate a fan base and all the HS coaches in the state.
Miller is a perfect fit.
Lot of stupid in this quote but I would love for you to flesh out the evidence on the bolded.
-
Lot of stupid in this quote but I would love for you to flesh out the evidence on the bolded.
Ehh. I'm pretty confident saying there are coaches (I'm sure Sampson included) who do much worse things than texting or calling a guy more often than he should, yet Samspon is treated as if he murdered someone while everything else is all good.
BeeJay can answer this one as I really don't know, but didn't the NCAA eliminate the rule on the number of times you can text/call a recruit?
-
Let me argue this is a terrible hire tantamount to IU admitting they are a formerly elite team and now in the class of tOSU, Purdue and Iowa ... an upper half Big Ten 10 team but nothing special.
First, in this post is Crean's 9 year record at IU, compared to MU.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53996.0
They are remarkably similar, showing rankings, including top 10 and even no. 1. They even weeks in the top 5 this year and were the 11th best team last year per KenPom. Yet none of this was good enough.
Second, their was stories they would pay Alford's nearly $8 million buyout and pay nearly $6 million a year for a new coach.
So given all this they took Archie Miller. I have not heard terms but i'm guessing he is not breaking the bank.
If Miller finishes 18th next year and get the second round of the tournament, is that a successful year? That's what Crean was more or less giving them (Crean was S16 last year) and he was shown the door.
Anyone want to make case Archie is going to 4 FF in the next 7 years. I cannot see it.
Bottom line, IU is giving up, they are content being Iowa or Ohio State. They are formerly elite.
What's wrong with this argument?
IU has unrealistic expectations about their place in the basketball pecking order. They are simply not a consistent top 10 type program any more. Crean was doing a very good job for them and had the program positioned for continued top 25 type success with an occasional tournament run. This years team was on track to do well prior to some key injuries and in fact had some very good wins. Crean's problem , as one poster pointed out, is that he is "smarmy". Basically he wore out his welcome and gave the money guys the window to can him and get someone they perceived would restore their glory.
Archie Miller is a very successful rising young coach. Indiana is not giving up their aspirations of being an elite level program at all by hiring him. That said , he will have to work hard to approach and exceed Crean's level of success at Indiana. Crean was a good recruiter and had real talent . I think it was smart for Indiana to get a guy from nearby as well. Miller can get to work right away and not have to worry too much about moving the family etc. Getting IU into the upper third of the Big Ten is going to be a big challenge. My guess is Miller will ultimately be like Buzz was for us, and extend the Crean profile of the IU program for a considerable period of time. At the end of the day Indiana won't be happy about that but reality is that is what they are, which most non blue bloods would take in a heart beat.
-
IU has unrealistic expectations about their place in the basketball pecking order. They are simply not a consistent top 10 type program any more. Crean was doing a very good job for them and had the program positioned for continued top 25 type success with an occasional tournament run. This years team was on track to do well prior to some key injuries and in fact had some very good wins. Crean's problem , as one poster pointed out, is that he is "smarmy". Basically he wore out his welcome and gave the money guys the window to can him and get someone they perceived would restore their glory.
Archie Miller is a very successful rising young coach. Indiana is not giving up their aspirations of being an elite level program at all by hiring him. That said , he will have to work hard to approach and exceed Crean's level of success at Indiana. Crean was a good recruiter and had real talent . I think it was smart for Indiana to get a guy from nearby as well. Miller can get to work right away and not have to worry too much about moving the family etc. Getting IU into the upper third of the Big Ten is going to be a big challenge. My guess is Miller will ultimately be like Buzz was for us, and extend the Crean profile of the IU program for a considerable period of time. At the end of the day Indiana won't be happy about that but reality is that is what they are, which most non blue bloods would take in a heart beat.
Shouldn't we find out really fast?
If Crean's good incoming recruits bail, he doesn't land decent recruits this summer (2018 class) and gets significant transfers, he starts with two "dead classes" (incoming Freshman this year and next year). This means IU stays where it was this year (9th or 10th in the Big 10) for the next few years and we can check back in 2020 to see if they are relevant again.
If he is going to be successful, he needs to land an Ellenson type, like Wojo did, just a few months after he was hired.
We'll know by the November signing.
-
Ehh. I'm pretty confident saying there are coaches (I'm sure Sampson included) who do much worse things than texting or calling a guy more often than he should, yet Samspon is treated as if he murdered someone while everything else is all good.
BeeJay can answer this one as I really don't know, but didn't the NCAA eliminate the rule on the number of times you can text/call a recruit?
Wasn't Sampson's sin that he was told to stop texting and he did not?
-
Wasn't Sampson's sin that he was told to stop texting and he did not?
And lying both to the IU Compliance Office and NCAA when specifically questioned about the violations.
And it wasn't just a few calls - there were over 500 documented impermissible calls.
-
Just curious if IU reached out to many candidates before Miller and they turned the job down. Do you think they reached out to the Butler and Xavier coaches?
-
I guess my main question with Miller is that by any measurement, at the time of hire, he's a step down from Crean. Both had one NCAA run, Crean went to the Final Four, Miller went to the Elite Eight. Both had success in their league, Crean did it in the Big East, Miller did it in the A10. Both had solid recruits, but Wade/Diener/Novak/Matthews were all more successful long-term than any of Miller's Dayton recruits.
Crean came in as a better recruiter, with a better track record, from a better league. Miller is basically like hiring a mini-Crean all over again. I don't think there's any way one could argue this as anything but an obvious step back for Indiana. Maybe Miller ends up having success, maybe he knocks it out of the park there, but strictly based on what the coach brings to the table at the time of hire, Crean is hands-down the better candidate and they aren't even in the same zip code. Hell, I'm not even sure they're in the same country.
-
Crean's success came at the hands of a once in a lifetime player at a better program than where Archie had success.
-
Crean's success came at the hands of a once in a lifetime player at a better program than where Archie had success.
I know that's the default false narrative, but it's just such a silly assertion. He won consistently in the Big East without Wade. He did it in a much tougher league than Archie did. I mean, the last three seasons, which also happen to be Archie's three most successful, the A-10 has had an average of 7.7 teams per year that were sub-100 per Pomeroy (and never fewer than 7). The A-10 isn't terrible, but there's more bad teams than there are good ones. Crean also averaged a higher seed in his last three years at MU than Archie did at Dayton despite Dayton playing a comparably cupcake conference schedule.
If both 2008 Tom Crean and 2017 Archie Miller were both available right now, Crean would be the better hire and it wouldn't even be remotely close.
-
I know that's the default false narrative, but it's just such a silly assertion. He won consistently in the Big East without Wade. He did it in a much tougher league than Archie did. I mean, the last three seasons, which also happen to be Archie's three most successful, the A-10 has had an average of 7.7 teams per year that were sub-100 per Pomeroy (and never fewer than 7). The A-10 isn't terrible, but there's more bad teams than there are good ones. Crean also averaged a higher seed in his last three years at MU than Archie did at Dayton despite Dayton playing a comparably cupcake conference schedule.
If both 2008 Tom Crean and 2017 Archie Miller were both available right now, Crean would be the better hire and it wouldn't even be remotely close.
Of course Crean averaged a higher seed in the Tournament his last 3 years at MU. MU played in the BE. It's a lot easier to get a high seed in the BE than it is in the A10.
Archie Miller won 6 NCAA Tournament games in 6 years while recruiting to the A10 and Dayton and never having had a future NBA (and college) HOF player fall into his lap.
Tom Crean won 5 NCAA Tournament games in 9 years at Marquette and 4 of those came with a future NBA (and college) HOF player that fell into his lap. He also was recruiting players to play in the BE his last 3 years and to a Marquette program with a lot more history and resources than Dayton.
Marquette missed the NCAA Tournament the last 2 years they were in CUSA, a fairly comparable conference to the A10. Archie's Dayton team hasn't had anything like that dropoff since he established the program.
If you think it was easier to win at Dayton than it was at Marquette I'm not really sure what else to tell you.
-
If you think it was easier to win at Dayton than it was at Marquette I'm not really sure what else to tell you.
I think a lot of people forget what the expectation was when we joined the Big East. Coming off two non-tourney seasons, joining that league, we weren't exactly the prize of C-USA. Winning in the A-10 with Dayton is much easier than to win in the Big East with...well...anyone.
Brian Gregory won in the A-10 with Dayton. Hell, Oliver Purnell won in the A-10 with Dayton. They have their league's best fan support, they play in a softer league, it's not exactly tough to win 20+ games there. In the 12 years before Miller, Gregory and Purnell did it 9 times.
Maybe Miller's a better coach than the last two guys who racked up gaudy win totals in a soft A-10, but if Gregory and Purnell can win there, I certainly think Tom Crean would be able to absolutely kill it there.
-
Upside ta Miller is infinitely grater. T-Cube had maxed out and shot his load at MU, hey?
-
Why the narrative that Wade fell into Crean's lap? Crean recruited him. It wasn't happenstance.
Obviously they are hoping that Miller has an upside higher than Crean's. That's the basis for the hire. He hasn't achieved more than Crean did at the time.
-
Why the narrative that Wade fell into Crean's lap? Crean recruited him. It wasn't happenstance.
Obviously they are hoping that Miller has an upside higher than Crean's. That's the basis for the hire. He hasn't achieved more than Crean did at the time.
His upside better be because they just fired a coach that had them ranked in the top 10 earlier this year before key injuries, took the to the S16 and a top 10 ranking last year, and had them as high as #1 a few years ago.
Like I said before, if Miller finished next year ranked #18 and goes to the second round of the NCAA, that is not even better than Crean last year.
IU's problem is unrealistic expectations, not their coaches personality.
-
Why the narrative that Wade fell into Crean's lap? Crean recruited him. It wasn't happenstance.
Obviously they are hoping that Miller has an upside higher than Crean's. That's the basis for the hire. He hasn't achieved more than Crean did at the time.
Because high major conferences didn't allow partial qualifiers. He fell into Crean's lap.
Archie has won more consistently at a much worse program than what Crean did at Marquette.
I have yet to see an article or listen to anyone that says that this was a poor move and/or if they were going to wind up with Archie they should've just stuck with Crean. In fact, I listen to one college basketball podcast and they have been saying for weeks that unless you know for certain you can get one of Archie, Marshall, or Alford you don't fire Crean. Archie was a name that was brought up for all the biggest job openings, and many thought he'd stick around at Dayton until a blue blood offered him, which it did.
-
No. He recruited Wade as allowed per the rules. "Fell into his lap" is a false narrative that you are using to advance your argument.
-
No. He recruited Wade as allowed per the rules. "Fell into his lap" is a false narrative that you are using to advance your argument.
Who said he didn't recruit him as allowed per rules?
He also didn't have to compete with anybody above the level of DePaul in his recruitment of Wade. There is no false narrative. There are facts.
-
And I am not saying they should have stuck with Crean. Just that assuming that Miller will be better is an act of faith and not based on objective evidence. Crean's upside is known. Miller's isn't.
-
Who said he didn't recruit him as allowed per rules?
He also didn't have to compete with anybody above the level of DePaul in his recruitment of Wade. There is no false narrative. There are facts.
That's not "falling into his lap." That's the false narrative.
-
That's not "falling into his lap." That's the false narrative.
We'll just have to disagree. Not many programs could bring Wade in. Fortunately for both Marquette and Tom Crean, Marquette could.
Even if you don't consider it falling into Crean's lap and give Crean all the credit in the world for Wade being Wade, Archie still won more consistently without future NBA players (HOF or not...Novak, Diener, Matthews, Lazar) at a worse program and in a worse conference than Crean did at Marquette. 6 NCAA Tournament wins for Archie at Dayton in 6 years. 5 NCAA Tournament wins in 9 years at MU for Crean. Once both had established their programs (so taking out the first couple years), Crean had years of missing the NCAA Tournament while Archie never did.
Now Archie is at a program that he will be able to recruit future pros to. And, heck, Archie took friggin Dayton further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean ever took II, II.
-
Because high major conferences didn't allow partial qualifiers. He fell into Crean's lap.
Respectfully, this is not an accurate statement. The Big Ten changed their rules in 1992 to accept partial qualifiers.
This article in 1999 outlined all the major conferences that allowed partial qualifiers. Big Ten, Big 12, Pac 12, SEC all allowed them, but some conferences put limits on the number each school could have.
http://www.dailynebraskan.com/academic-qualifications-vary-between-conferences/article_4bd9d7eb-17fc-5cdb-9b47-fbb43722cdce.html
-
Why the narrative that Wade fell into Crean's lap? Crean recruited him. It wasn't happenstance.
Obviously they are hoping that Miller has an upside higher than Crean's. That's the basis for the hire. He hasn't achieved more than Crean did at the time.
Crean benefited from the Wade recruitment partly because Wade was a late bloomer. He was considered more of a football player his sophomore year and played sparingly on the basketball team. His junior year he didn't start right away, prime recruiting time, but he started to blossom was considered a mid major type player, ranked 10th in the state. By the end of his senior year, after he already committed to MU, he was 1st team all state and arguably the best player in the state. Worked out great for us.
In looking at Miller's success, his team had an elite 8 run a few years ago. Their first two wins were by 1 and 2 points. If they lose that first game, is Miller a big time candidate? No NCAA deep run, just a guy at an A-10 school that is good enough to get to the tournament, but not advance.
The fortunes of coaches and players can hinge on a few plays here and there that change perceptions and can launch or kill careers in a few seconds.
-
I'm not a Crean fan (or Crean hater), but I say it's silly to say somebody he recruited hard "fell into his lap." He "earned" Wade, who did have other choices. He also surrounded Wade with several players who made it possible for the FF run. I don't think Diener, Novak, Merritt and Jackson ALL fell into Crean's lap, and I don't think MU gets to the S16 to be carried by Wade without the contributions of all the guys not named Wade.
It would be like saying Curry fell into McKillop's lap at Davidson. No. McKillop took advantage of other schools not seeing the potential in Curry early enough and he stayed on Curry. He "earned" Curry.
As for Miller ...
It's probably true that the 08 Crean was a "better" candidate for a blue-blood opening than the 17 Miller. But that doesn't mean Miller won't turn out to be the superior coach. Miller is regarded by most observers as a real up-and-comer and he has unquestionably done a nice job at Dayton. If I were an IU fan, I'd be very excited about him going to Bloomington.
Would I rather have had Billy Donovan? Yes, if I was convinced Donovan really wanted to come back to college basketball. Otherwise, looking at the pool of available candidates, I'd be very happy with Archie Miller. I sure as shyte would rather have him than Alford.
As to whether Miller will do better next season than Crean would have ... sometimes, change for the sake of change is good. It really can be good for Crean, too.
I don't know how hiring perhaps one of the best - if not the best - available candidates somehow "proves" that Indiana is suddenly no longer "elite."
Besides, I would argue Indiana stopped being elite when it let Bobby run roughshod over the university in the late-90s. As he got more and more belligerent and abusive, he did more damage to the IU basketball brand than anybody. The man won a grand total of 2 NCAA tournament games in his last 6 years there because talented kids (including top Indiana kids) began to realize, "Hey, I can get great coaching without getting choked, so I'll go elsewhere." Bobby got 'em to the tourney because he was still a gifted game coach, but he didn't have the horses to compete for anything important. Once they finally fired him, it was too late, and the coaches who followed were anywhere from bad to good (I'll give Crean "good") - but miles from elite.
-
I'm not a Crean fan (or Crean hater), but I say it's silly to say somebody he recruited hard "fell into his lap." He "earned" Wade, who did have other choices. He also surrounded Wade with several players who made it possible for the FF run. I don't think Diener, Novak, Merritt and Jackson ALL fell into Crean's lap, and I don't think MU gets to the S16 to be carried by Wade without the contributions of all the guys not named Wade.
It would be like saying Curry fell into McKillop's lap at Davidson. No. McKillop took advantage of other schools not seeing the potential in Curry early enough and he stayed on Curry. He "earned" Curry.
As for Miller ...
It's probably true that the 08 Crean was a "better" candidate for a blue-blood opening than the 17 Miller. But that doesn't mean Miller won't turn out to be the superior coach. Miller is regarded by most observers as a real up-and-comer and he has unquestionably done a nice job at Dayton. If I were an IU fan, I'd be very excited about him going to Bloomington.
Would I rather have had Billy Donovan? Yes, if I was convinced Donovan really wanted to come back to college basketball. Otherwise, looking at the pool of available candidates, I'd be very happy with Archie Miller. I sure as shyte would rather have him than Alford.
As to whether Miller will do better next season than Crean would have ... sometimes, change for the sake of change is good. It really can be good for Crean, too.
I don't know how hiring perhaps one of the best - if not the best - available candidates somehow "proves" that Indiana is suddenly no longer "elite."
Besides, I would argue Indiana stopped being elite when it let Bobby run roughshod over the university in the late-90s. As he got more and more belligerent and abusive, he did more damage to the IU basketball brand than anybody. The man won a grand total of 2 NCAA tournament games in his last 6 years there because talented kids (including top Indiana kids) began to realize, "Hey, I can get great coaching without getting choked, so I'll go elsewhere." Bobby got 'em to the tourney because he was still a gifted game coach, but he didn't have the horses to compete for anything important. Once they finally fired him, it was too late, and the coaches who followed were anywhere from bad to good (I'll give Crean "good") - but miles from elite.
Curry didn't have the issue of qualifying to play like Wade did. Wade's choices were Marquette, Illinois State, DePaul, and Bradley. DePaul went with a different guard and Wade's final 2 were Marquette and Illinois State, not because he was too small, too weak, or not talented enough to get looks from other schools, but because he didn't have the grades to get him into those schools. Wade said Michigan was his dream school and was contacting him...until they found out about his grades. Competing with Illinois State for one of Illinois's best high school basketball players is a Godsend. He fell into Crean's lap.
-
Crean's success came at the hands of a once in a lifetime player at a better program than where Archie had success.
Ridiculously juvenile and simplistic. But no surprise.
-
Ridiculously juvenile and simplistic. But no surprise.
Yeah it is pretty simple. Tom Crean won a whopping 1 NCAA Tournament game at Marquette without some guy named Dwayne Wade on the roster.
-
Yeah it is pretty simple. Tom Crean won a whopping 1 NCAA Tournament game at Marquette without some guy named Dwayne Wade on the roster.
Tom Crean won zero NCAA tourney games with a guy named Dwayne Wade on the roster.
-
Tom Crean won zero NCAA tourney games with a guy named Dwayne Wade on the roster.
Oh no. Not an iPhone autocorrect misspelling!
-
Oh no. Not an iPhone autocorrect misspelling!
So you agree, Tom Crean won zero NCAA games with Dwayne Wade on his team?
Cool.
-
Curry didn't have the issue of qualifying to play like Wade did. Wade's choices were Marquette, Illinois State, DePaul, and Bradley. DePaul went with a different guard and Wade's final 2 were Marquette and Illinois State, not because he was too small, too weak, or not talented enough to get looks from other schools, but because he didn't have the grades to get him into those schools. Wade said Michigan was his dream school and was contacting him...until they found out about his grades. Competing with Illinois State for one of Illinois's best high school basketball players is a Godsend. He fell into Crean's lap.
With all due respect, there was way more to Wade's situation than just academics.
Fact is, Wade was a good, but not great, player in his junior year of high school and then spent the summer on an absolutely loaded AAU team where guys like Darius Miles (straight to NBA), Matt Lottich (Stanford), Brett Melton (Illinois) and Todd Townsend (who was considered a better player at that age) stole shots, minutes and attention. It wasn't until Dwyane's senior year in high school that people got a glimpse at the player he would become, and by then Crean had built a relationship with him and let him know MU would be there whether he qualified or not. Dwyane has said many times that was one of the reasons he stuck with MU after he blew up.
It's silly to think that bigger programs knew what DW would become, but didn't recruit him solely because of Prop 48.
Crean deserves loads of credit for recognizing Wade as a top tier talent and building the relationship that would bring him to Marquette. There's plenty of entirely valid reasons to criticize and make fun of Crean. No need to invent reasons to invalidate the successes he did have at MU.
-
With all due respect, there was way more to Wade's situation than just academics.
Fact is, Wade was a good, but not great, player in his junior year of high school and then spent the summer on an absolutely loaded AAU team where guys like Darius Miles (straight to NBA), Matt Lottich (Stanford), Brett Melton (Illinois) and Todd Townsend (who was considered a better player at that age) stole shots, minutes and attention. It wasn't until Dwyane's senior year in high school that people got a glimpse at the player he would become, and by then Crean had built a relationship with him and let him know MU would be there whether he qualified or not. Dwyane has said many times that was one of the reasons he stuck with MU after he blew up.
It's silly to think that bigger programs knew what DW would become, but didn't recruit him solely because of Prop 48.
Crean deserves loads of credit for recognizing Wade as a top tier talent and building the relationship that would bring him to Marquette. There's plenty of entirely valid reasons to criticize and make fun of Crean. No need to invent reasons to invalidate the successes he did have at MU.
In Wade's own words his dream school was Michigan and they were interested in him until they found out his grades. He couldn't go to the high major schools due to his academic issues. Props to Crean for letting Wade know he was going to stand by him no matter what his grades word, which allowed him to beat out the powerhouse Illinois State for Wade's services. There is no debate that if Wade's academics were perfectly in order throughout his high school career his recruitment is a lot different than it was. Does he still end up at Marquette? Thankfully we'll never have to find out.
-
I guess my main question with Miller is that by any measurement, at the time of hire, he's a step down from Crean. Both had one NCAA run, Crean went to the Final Four, Miller went to the Elite Eight. Both had success in their league, Crean did it in the Big East, Miller did it in the A10. Both had solid recruits, but Wade/Diener/Novak/Matthews were all more successful long-term than any of Miller's Dayton recruits.
Crean came in as a better recruiter, with a better track record, from a better league. Miller is basically like hiring a mini-Crean all over again. I don't think there's any way one could argue this as anything but an obvious step back for Indiana. Maybe Miller ends up having success, maybe he knocks it out of the park there, but strictly based on what the coach brings to the table at the time of hire, Crean is hands-down the better candidate and they aren't even in the same zip code. Hell, I'm not even sure they're in the same country.
According to your specific, backward-looking metrics, maybe you're right.
One thing Archie does not have a reputation for, however, is possessing the personality of a complete tool.
Butler, ND, and Purdue have shown you can be highly & consistently successful if you can recruit Indiana high schools well. Hell, even Crean with Zeller and that early crew proved that. However, he proved himself time and time again to be entirely off-putting to the very people he needed to be tight with. Found himself shut out of the Indiana HS circuity completely. Archie's no phony, and he's no idiot. You immediately establish those relationships with a sense of mutual respect, and the talent will flow like the salmon of Capistrano. And he can be picky with how that talent fits with roster complexion and the system he wants to run, too. That's one thing, regardless of recruiting class rankings, that I thought Crean was very poor at.
Sometimes cultural fit is just as important as (if not more important than) what the metrics say. On metrics, I'd say they're a push. Culturally, Archie wins in a landslide. People actually like him. Crean's ultimate demise was/is that he's an insufferable human being that overcompensates with arrogance and buffoonery. Plain and simple.
-
According to your specific, backward-looking metrics, maybe you're right.
One thing Archie does not have a reputation for, however, is possessing the personality of a complete tool.
Butler, ND, and Purdue have shown you can be highly & consistently successful if you can recruit Indiana high schools well. Hell, even Crean with Zeller and that early crew proved that. However, he proved himself time and time again to be entirely off-putting to the very people he needed to be tight with. Found himself shut out of the Indiana HS circuity completely. Archie's no phony, and he's no idiot. You immediately establish those relationships with a sense of mutual respect, and the talent will flow like the salmon of Capistrano. And he can be picky with how that talent fits with roster complexion and the system he wants to run, too. That's one thing, regardless of recruiting class rankings, that I thought Crean was very poor at.
Sometimes cultural fit is just as important as (if not more important than) what the metrics say. On metrics, I'd say they're a push. Culturally, Archie wins in a landslide. People actually like him. Crean's ultimate demise was/is that he's an insufferable human being that overcompensates with arrogance and buffoonery. Plain and simple.
A good post.
-
In Wade's own words his dream school was Michigan and they were interested in him until they found out his grades. He couldn't go to the high major schools due to his academic issues. Props to Crean for letting Wade know he was going to stand by him no matter what his grades word, which allowed him to beat out the powerhouse Illinois State for Wade's services. There is no debate that if Wade's academics were perfectly in order throughout his high school career his recruitment is a lot different than it was. Does he still end up at Marquette? Thankfully we'll never have to find out.
Not gonna argue with you on this, wades, cuz I respect you too much. I simply think you're not giving Crean enough credit. And I'm a guy who likes to take the occasional potshot at the tanned wonder. That'll be my last word on this here. Have a good one.
-
IMO this is simple. Tom Crean is a good coach.
But Tom Crean isn't a great coach. Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.
Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.
-
IMO this is simple. Tom Crean is a good coach.
But Tom Crean isn't a great coach. Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.
Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.
Oh goodness. Was the master plan by Larry/Pilarz to bring him back?
Didn't Crean have some difficulty recruiting Wisconsin because of his relationship with AAU and high school coaches at the end? He got Christopherson, but I thought I remember he ticked a lot of coaches off and they wouldn't send players to MU.
-
Oh goodness. Was the master plan by Larry/Pilarz to bring him back?
Didn't Crean have some difficulty recruiting Wisconsin because of his relationship with AAU and high school coaches at the end? He got Christopherson, but I thought I remember he ticked a lot of coaches off and they wouldn't send players to MU.
From what I've heard around Indy, the same thing happened at IU
-
From what I've heard around Indy, the same thing happened at IU
Yup. In no uncertain terms: Crean sucks
-
IMO this is simple. Tom Crean is a good coach.
But Tom Crean isn't a great coach. Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.
Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.
Agreed. Honestly, I think he'd be a great fit to trade places with Miller. I could see him staying at Dayton for 15-20 years and having a ton of success.
Maybe Miller kills it at IU. Maybe he returns them to blue blood status. But acting like he's a better candidate than Crean was is just silly. If I'm an IU fan, I'm incredibly underwhelmed by this hire.
-
Agreed. Honestly, I think he'd be a great fit to trade places with Miller. I could see him staying at Dayton for 15-20 years and having a ton of success.
Maybe Miller kills it at IU. Maybe he returns them to blue blood status. But acting like he's a better candidate than Crean was is just silly. If I'm an IU fan, I'm incredibly underwhelmed by this hire.
Every IU fan I work with (5 closely, a few others more tangentially) is ecstatic. They view it as a huge upgrade, for all the reasons I laid out.
-
Yup. In no uncertain terms: Crean sucks
Won a Championship in two conferences. Won Coach of the Year in two conferences. Made a few Sweet 16s. Has a Final Four ring.
-
Won a Championship in two conferences. Won Coach of the Year in two conferences. Made a few Sweet 16s. Has a Final Four ring.
His ceiling is lower than acceptable for a blue blood and he was shown the door as a result. Dude sucks.
-
His ceiling is lower than acceptable for a blue blood and he was shown the door as a result. Dude sucks.
No he doesn't "suck." Hyperbole doesn't help you. He is a good coach.
His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood. There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.
-
According to your specific, backward-looking metrics, maybe you're right.
One thing Archie does not have a reputation for, however, is possessing the personality of a complete tool.
Butler, ND, and Purdue have shown you can be highly & consistently successful if you can recruit Indiana high schools well. Hell, even Crean with Zeller and that early crew proved that. However, he proved himself time and time again to be entirely off-putting to the very people he needed to be tight with. Found himself shut out of the Indiana HS circuity completely. Archie's no phony, and he's no idiot. You immediately establish those relationships with a sense of mutual respect, and the talent will flow like the salmon of Capistrano. And he can be picky with how that talent fits with roster complexion and the system he wants to run, too. That's one thing, regardless of recruiting class rankings, that I thought Crean was very poor at.
Sometimes cultural fit is just as important as (if not more important than) what the metrics say. On metrics, I'd say they're a push. Culturally, Archie wins in a landslide. People actually like him. Crean's ultimate demise was/is that he's an insufferable human being that overcompensates with arrogance and buffoonery. Plain and simple.
Crean is hardly the first and only tool to coach a college basketball team. And I'll bet he is not even the biggest tool to coach at IU (Knight). He might not be the second biggest tool (Sampson).
We all know that coaches get fired for one reason, they fail to preform on the court. No one cares if you piss off all the high school and AAU coaches in your state if you constantly have top 10 teams. Those coaches don't run your program.
Oh wait, Crean did deliver top 10 teams. He did last year and he did this year. But That's was not good enough.
IU still thinks they are Kentucky. They still think they should be penciled in for the FF every year. That's what Crean did wrong.
If Archie delivers regular FFcaliber teams, it's because IU got lucky, not that his resume suggests he's the next Bill Self.
That said, I agree Archie is a good coach, he will have them ranked and they will regularly get bids. In other words, Crean type results ... which is not bad!!
But the faithful in Bloomington will think this is failure.
-
IU fans don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they. What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton. DAYTON! He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!
IU fans should be thrilled. Archie is a great fit for IU. WAY better than had they hired Alford. They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas. This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.
-
Upside ta Miller is infinitely grater. T-Cube had maxed out and shot his load at MU, hey?
Miller is recruiting to I4 now. Don't underestimate that, as opposed to UD.
-
I think searches the last few years have shown caches in good situations aren't as willing to leave. Alford at UCLA is pretty underwhelming for a program of their level. I like the Archie hire, but as others have said, Crean had a better resume when he was hired. It doesn't seem like many P-6 coaches are really leaving their jobs unless they are close to being fired or issues with the administration. Even coaches in good mid-major situations are becoming more picky.
I wonder if Crean would go to Indiana if he had the same choice. Seeing as how coaches have a large amount of confidence, I think he would. However, if Crean has the same type of tenure at MU as he did at IU (taking out the rebuilding years), is his seat even warm? I think with TV and all the money conferences are making for the schools, high major coaches will stay at their schools and not feel the need to jump to traditional powerhouses.
-
Look up "sucks" in da dictionary. Ders a headshot of Crean starin' right der at ja, ai na?
-
No he doesn't "suck." Hyperbole doesn't help you. He is a good coach.
His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood. There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.
I mean as a guy, he sucks.
-
No he doesn't "suck." Hyperbole doesn't help you. He is a good coach.
His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood. There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.
Yep. Good, but just not good enough for IU's standards. He might have been able to finish his career at MU by getting to the dance regularly and an occasional S16 or E8, and he probably could have a good career at a place like Dayton.
-
I mean as a guy, he sucks.
OK, that I can buy.....
-
Crean is hardly the first and only tool to coach a college basketball team. And I'll bet he is not even the biggest tool to coach at IU (Knight). He might not be the second biggest tool (Sampson).
We all know that coaches get fired for one reason, they fail to preform on the court. No one cares if you piss off all the high school and AAU coaches in your state if you constantly have top 10 teams. Those coaches don't run your program.
Oh wait, Crean did deliver top 10 teams. He did last year and he did this year. But That's was not good enough.
IU still thinks they are Kentucky. They still think they should be penciled in for the FF every year. That's what Crean did wrong.
If Archie delivers regular FFcaliber teams, it's because IU got lucky, not that his resume suggests he's the next Bill Self.
That said, I agree Archie is a good coach, he will have them ranked and they will regularly get bids. In other words, Crean type results ... which is not bad!!
But the faithful in Bloomington will think this is failure.
No. What Crean did wrong was get himself blackballed by Indiana HS coaches with a combination of condescension and revealing his lack of knowledge of the game over time.
As long as you're winning, it doesn't matter where the kids come from. But if you lose, you better be losing with Indiana kids, especially when all the other HM programs in the state are stacked with them and show up in the tourney year after year with some deep runs mixed in.
It's not Kentucky they're mad they aren't. It's Butler/ND/Purdue he underperformed without Indiana HS kids on the roster and none in the pipeline. That's what did him in.
-
IU don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they. What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton. DAYTON! He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!
IU fans should be thrilled. Archie is a great fit for IU. WAY better than had they hired Alford. They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas. This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.
Agreed.
-
Miller is recruiting to I4 now. Don't underestimate that, as opposed to UD.
Good point. Of course, at UD he didn't have to contend with a Michigan State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin or the rest of the Big Ten. Everyone is recruiting major talent. Some coaches jump from mid major to high major and can't process how to handle the egos, or the 5* kids that are one and done. Don't understimate that.
-
No. What Crean did wrong was get himself blackballed by Indiana HS coaches with a combination of condescension and revealing his lack of knowledge of the game over time.
As long as you're winning, it doesn't matter where the kids come from. But if you lose, you better be losing with Indiana kids, especially when all the other HM programs in the state are stacked with them and show up in the tourney year after year with some deep runs mixed in.
It's not Kentucky they're mad they aren't. It's Butler/ND/Purdue he underperformed without Indiana HS kids on the roster and none in the pipeline. That's what did him in.
How, when did he underperform Butler/ND/Purdue? The last 90 days? IU was top 5 in December before injuries, top 10 and S16 last year and #1 in 2013. I don't see it.
He was fired about unrealistic expectations, and that is the same reason they will fire Archie in 5 to 7 years.
They are no longer elite and their belief they are is what motivates them.
-
IU fans don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they. What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton. DAYTON! He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!
IU fans should be thrilled. Archie is a great fit for IU. WAY better than had they hired Alford. They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas. This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.
And that could be their logic, but he really didn't do much more that previous Dayton coaches did there. I don't see them beating a path to Oliver Purnell's door.
-
And that could be their logic, but he really didn't do much more that previous Dayton coaches did there. I don't see them beating a path to Oliver Purnell's door.
One guy had 6 NCAA Tournament wins in 6 seasons, the other had 0 NCAA Tournament wins in 9 years...
-
Good point. Of course, at UD he didn't have to contend with a Michigan State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin or the rest of the Big Ten. Everyone is recruiting major talent. Some coaches jump from mid major to high major and can't process how to handle the egos, or the 5* kids that are one and done. Don't understimate that.
Exactly
Now that Archie is recruiting for IU, he is competing for kids that are talking to 'Tom from Michigan State" and "John from Michigan" and "Matt from Purdue." Tom will remind them about his 6 FFs and Draymond Green, John will note he is from "Big Blue" ("nuff said") and Matt will note upcoming lottery pick Caleb. Archie can talk about IU's tradition, developed by others, and what he did at Dayton.
No, I'm not saying Archie will fail. But while he has a better calling card with IU over Dayton but he is also going against tougher competition.
As I noted before, we'll know really fast if he can recruit, if he lands a decent class by November. Remember just a few months after Wojo got to MU Carlino grad transferred and Henry committed. That showed Wojo could recruit. (and Wojo has continued to follow that up, see this year's Freshman). Archie needs to show the same or he could be in trouble before Christmas.
-
One guy had 6 NCAA Tournament wins in 6 seasons, the other had 0 NCAA Tournament wins in 9 years...
5 wins. And honestly, as much as Marquette fans mock Dayton, it's probably one of the easiest places to win. As Purnell and Gregory have shown, pretty much any schmuck can win 20+ there more often than not.
-
Kansas hired a coach from Illinois
UNC hired a coach from Kansas
Kentucky hired a coach from Memphis (who was in the title game)
UCLA hired a coach from New Mexico nee Iowa
Indiana goes the mid major route. I guess it's not Indiana.
-
I mean as a guy, he sucks.
Maybe he's better with the gals?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/QTP_170326TomCreanIndianaWNIT/former-indiana-head-coach-tom-crean-attends-iu-women-wnit-game
-
5 wins. And honestly, as much as Marquette fans mock Dayton, it's probably one of the easiest places to win. As Purnell and Gregory have shown, pretty much any schmuck can win 20+ there more often than not.
My opinion, too. Dayton had been to four straight post season tournaments when Archie took over, including NIT champions. In the last 10 years, they have missed a post season only one time, and that was with Archie at the helm.
My comment earlier that it can by 1 or 2 plays that determine a career. Someone here said Wade fell into Crean's lap, which is not true. Could not someone make the same claim if it weren't for Dayton making a shot with 3.8 seconds left against Ohio State, then Archie Miller is just another mid major coach? OSU missed the winning shot that rimmed out from 5 feet. That's the difference between Dayton in the Elite 8 and Dayton first round exit. A guy named Vee Sanford made that shot for Dayton. Vee is the bridge to Archie becoming head coach at Indiana. Think about it. IU isn't going to hire Archie Miller without that Elite 8 run.
-
Kansas hired a coach from Illinois
UNC hired a coach from Kansas
Kentucky hired a coach from Memphis (who was in the title game)
UCLA hired a coach from New Mexico nee Iowa
Indiana goes the mid major route. I guess it's not Indiana.
Alford was likely going to be fired and got out while he could to New Mexico. He wasn't UCLA's first or second choice. Likely not even third.
-
5 wins. And honestly, as much as Marquette fans mock Dayton, it's probably one of the easiest places to win. As Purnell and Gregory have shown, pretty much any schmuck can win 20+ there more often than not.
Methinks the 0 tourney wins was a comparison to Purnell, not Crean
-
Really good article on Crean, Miller and IU basketball.
https://theringer.com/archie-miller-indiana-hoosiers-basketball-tom-crean-dbe7b96b398b
"Crean probably deserved better than what Indiana fans ultimately gave him. But Indiana fans deserved better than what Crean gave them, too, and that’s what makes his legacy at the school so complicated. To an outsider, Indiana is a college basketball dinosaur supported by a delusional fan base hell-bent on returning to glory days that have long since passed. And that’s accurate to a certain extent, as the Hoosiers haven’t won a national title since 1987 and have been to only two Final Fours in the last 30 years. But unlike several other programs past their heyday, Indiana has resources that have never gone away. The Hoosiers still have an enormous and rabid fan base, a spot in one of college athletics’ richest conferences, an iconic arena, an absurd recruiting budget, and a gold mine of local talent to funnel to Bloomington. The way Indiana fans see it, the problem isn’t that an unruly fan base starved for success has perpetuated unrealistic expectations that every coach since Bob Knight has struggled to meet. It’s that the fan base is so starved for success because the coaches after Knight have all struggled.
...
This was perhaps Crean’s fatal flaw. He never really exuded the Indiana vibe. He was a good coach who was occasionally a very good coach, but he was never a great coach and, more importantly, he was never an Indiana coach. When a culture is as deeply rooted as Indiana’s is, fit is crucial, and Crean — like Charlie Strong at Texas football, or Rich Rodriguez during his short-lived tenure at Michigan — was seen as an outsider who didn’t truly belong. Crean tried his best, yet for reasons spanning from his mannerisms to his coaching philosophy to his recruiting strategy to his demeanor, he was never fully embraced.
...
The head coach of the Hoosiers is a representative of the entire state and its basketball aura, and that’s something Miller seems to grasp better than any Indiana coach who has come along since Knight. More specifically, Miller’s values appear to align with what’ve traditionally been the tenets of Indiana University basketball: selflessness, ball movement, defensive intensity, and high graduation rates. Whether all of this will translate into winning is what matters most, as doing things “the right way” will stop meaning as much if the losses pile up. For many in the area, though, the Hoosiers’ pursuit of a sixth national title is a religion. Miller, if nothing else, is ready to preach."
-
Really good article on Crean, Miller and IU basketball.
https://theringer.com/archie-miller-indiana-hoosiers-basketball-tom-crean-dbe7b96b398b
"Crean probably deserved better than what Indiana fans ultimately gave him. But Indiana fans deserved better than what Crean gave them, too, and that’s what makes his legacy at the school so complicated. To an outsider, Indiana is a college basketball dinosaur supported by a delusional fan base hell-bent on returning to glory days that have long since passed. And that’s accurate to a certain extent, as the Hoosiers haven’t won a national title since 1987 and have been to only two Final Fours in the last 30 years. But unlike several other programs past their heyday, Indiana has resources that have never gone away. The Hoosiers still have an enormous and rabid fan base, a spot in one of college athletics’ richest conferences, an iconic arena, an absurd recruiting budget, and a gold mine of local talent to funnel to Bloomington. The way Indiana fans see it, the problem isn’t that an unruly fan base starved for success has perpetuated unrealistic expectations that every coach since Bob Knight has struggled to meet. It’s that the fan base is so starved for success because the coaches after Knight have all struggled.
...
This was perhaps Crean’s fatal flaw. He never really exuded the Indiana vibe. He was a good coach who was occasionally a very good coach, but he was never a great coach and, more importantly, he was never an Indiana coach. When a culture is as deeply rooted as Indiana’s is, fit is crucial, and Crean — like Charlie Strong at Texas football, or Rich Rodriguez during his short-lived tenure at Michigan — was seen as an outsider who didn’t truly belong. Crean tried his best, yet for reasons spanning from his mannerisms to his coaching philosophy to his recruiting strategy to his demeanor, he was never fully embraced.
...
The head coach of the Hoosiers is a representative of the entire state and its basketball aura, and that’s something Miller seems to grasp better than any Indiana coach who has come along since Knight. More specifically, Miller’s values appear to align with what’ve traditionally been the tenets of Indiana University basketball: selflessness, ball movement, defensive intensity, and high graduation rates. Whether all of this will translate into winning is what matters most, as doing things “the right way” will stop meaning as much if the losses pile up. For many in the area, though, the Hoosiers’ pursuit of a sixth national title is a religion. Miller, if nothing else, is ready to preach."
Titus has become my favorite college basketball writer. He puts his biases out in front and yet is happy to trash tOSU or IU if warranted. He really seems to hold no agenda and owes no favors. His Top 12 rankings each week are a must read.
-
Really good article on Crean, Miller and IU basketball.
https://theringer.com/archie-miller-indiana-hoosiers-basketball-tom-crean-dbe7b96b398b
"Crean probably deserved better than what Indiana fans ultimately gave him. But Indiana fans deserved better than what Crean gave them, too, and that’s what makes his legacy at the school so complicated. To an outsider, Indiana is a college basketball dinosaur supported by a delusional fan base hell-bent on returning to glory days that have long since passed. And that’s accurate to a certain extent, as the Hoosiers haven’t won a national title since 1987 and have been to only two Final Fours in the last 30 years. But unlike several other programs past their heyday, Indiana has resources that have never gone away. The Hoosiers still have an enormous and rabid fan base, a spot in one of college athletics’ richest conferences, an iconic arena, an absurd recruiting budget, and a gold mine of local talent to funnel to Bloomington. The way Indiana fans see it, the problem isn’t that an unruly fan base starved for success has perpetuated unrealistic expectations that every coach since Bob Knight has struggled to meet. It’s that the fan base is so starved for success because the coaches after Knight have all struggled.
...
This was perhaps Crean’s fatal flaw. He never really exuded the Indiana vibe. He was a good coach who was occasionally a very good coach, but he was never a great coach and, more importantly, he was never an Indiana coach. When a culture is as deeply rooted as Indiana’s is, fit is crucial, and Crean — like Charlie Strong at Texas football, or Rich Rodriguez during his short-lived tenure at Michigan — was seen as an outsider who didn’t truly belong. Crean tried his best, yet for reasons spanning from his mannerisms to his coaching philosophy to his recruiting strategy to his demeanor, he was never fully embraced.
...
The head coach of the Hoosiers is a representative of the entire state and its basketball aura, and that’s something Miller seems to grasp better than any Indiana coach who has come along since Knight. More specifically, Miller’s values appear to align with what’ve traditionally been the tenets of Indiana University basketball: selflessness, ball movement, defensive intensity, and high graduation rates. Whether all of this will translate into winning is what matters most, as doing things “the right way” will stop meaning as much if the losses pile up. For many in the area, though, the Hoosiers’ pursuit of a sixth national title is a religion. Miller, if nothing else, is ready to preach."
Just substitute Marquette for IU and the article could have been written about Wojo replacing Buzz/Crean and a starved hungry for success fan base whose program has struggled since the Al days.
-
Just substitute Marquette for IU and the article could have been written about Wojo replacing Buzz/Crean and a starved hungry for success fan base whose program has struggled since the Al days.
Huh?
-
Huh?
Haha truly a bizarre comment
-
Really good article on Crean, Miller and IU basketball.
https://theringer.com/archie-miller-indiana-hoosiers-basketball-tom-crean-dbe7b96b398b
"Crean probably deserved better than what Indiana fans ultimately gave him. But Indiana fans deserved better than what Crean gave them, too, and that’s what makes his legacy at the school so complicated. To an outsider, Indiana is a college basketball dinosaur supported by a delusional fan base hell-bent on returning to glory days that have long since passed. And that’s accurate to a certain extent, as the Hoosiers haven’t won a national title since 1987 and have been to only two Final Fours in the last 30 years. But unlike several other programs past their heyday, Indiana has resources that have never gone away. The Hoosiers still have an enormous and rabid fan base, a spot in one of college athletics’ richest conferences, an iconic arena, an absurd recruiting budget, and a gold mine of local talent to funnel to Bloomington. The way Indiana fans see it, the problem isn’t that an unruly fan base starved for success has perpetuated unrealistic expectations that every coach since Bob Knight has struggled to meet. It’s that the fan base is so starved for success because the coaches after Knight have all struggled.
...
This was perhaps Crean’s fatal flaw. He never really exuded the Indiana vibe. He was a good coach who was occasionally a very good coach, but he was never a great coach and, more importantly, he was never an Indiana coach. When a culture is as deeply rooted as Indiana’s is, fit is crucial, and Crean — like Charlie Strong at Texas football, or Rich Rodriguez during his short-lived tenure at Michigan — was seen as an outsider who didn’t truly belong. Crean tried his best, yet for reasons spanning from his mannerisms to his coaching philosophy to his recruiting strategy to his demeanor, he was never fully embraced.
...
The head coach of the Hoosiers is a representative of the entire state and its basketball aura, and that’s something Miller seems to grasp better than any Indiana coach who has come along since Knight. More specifically, Miller’s values appear to align with what’ve traditionally been the tenets of Indiana University basketball: selflessness, ball movement, defensive intensity, and high graduation rates. Whether all of this will translate into winning is what matters most, as doing things “the right way” will stop meaning as much if the losses pile up. For many in the area, though, the Hoosiers’ pursuit of a sixth national title is a religion. Miller, if nothing else, is ready to preach."
So I guess saying "It's Indiana! It's Indiana!" wasn't enough for Hoosier fans to see him as a representative of the aura....
-
Methinks the 0 tourney wins was a comparison to Purnell, not Crean
I know. There was no reference to Crean there whatsoever. ?-(
-
I know. There was no reference to Crean there whatsoever. ?-(
Ha thought your 5 wins statement was a Crean defense (his tourney wins at MU)
-
So I guess saying "It's Indiana! It's Indiana!" wasn't enough for Hoosier fans to see him as a representative of the aura....
Although Crean uttered this phrase, it became apparent he never understood it. Indiana will be back amongst the blue bloods...count on it.
-
Although Crean uttered this phrase, it became apparent he never understood it. Indiana will be back amongst the blue bloods...count on it.
The best example of the problem in Bloomington is summarized in this short post.
-
From a good friend and Dayton alum with a long history as sports directors at midwest television stations.... Anthony Grant to Dayton.
Self high-five.
-
Self high-five.
Well played ;)
-
Curry didn't have the issue of qualifying to play like Wade did. Wade's choices were Marquette, Illinois State, DePaul, and Bradley. DePaul went with a different guard and Wade's final 2 were Marquette and Illinois State, not because he was too small, too weak, or not talented enough to get looks from other schools, but because he didn't have the grades to get him into those schools. Wade said Michigan was his dream school and was contacting him...until they found out about his grades. Competing with Illinois State for one of Illinois's best high school basketball players is a Godsend. He fell into Crean's lap.
Doesnt the articles provided by 4or5 debunk the belief that Wade couldn't qualify at high majors?
-
I guess in the Michigan story, were they not allowed to recruit him by rule? Or just didn't want to risk him never being eligible or having issues at Michigan? If it's the latter, you have to give credit to Crean for taking the risk other schools wouldn't.
-
Exactly
Now that Archie is recruiting for IU, he is competing for kids that are talking to 'Tom from Michigan State" and "John from Michigan" and "Matt from Purdue." Tom will remind them about his 6 FFs and Draymond Green, John will note he is from "Big Blue" ("nuff said") and Matt will note upcoming lottery pick Caleb. Archie can talk about IU's tradition, developed by others, and what he did at Dayton.
No, I'm not saying Archie will fail. But while he has a better calling card with IU over Dayton but he is also going against tougher competition.
As I noted before, we'll know really fast if he can recruit, if he lands a decent class by November. Remember just a few months after Wojo got to MU Carlino grad transferred and Henry committed. That showed Wojo could recruit. (and Wojo has continued to follow that up, see this year's Freshman). Archie needs to show the same or he could be in trouble before Christmas.
Miller is an excellent young coach . I am confident he will utilize the assets at his disposal in Indiana very well. College basketball is very competitive and as many have pointed out he could work hard and still only achieve at the same level that Crean did. Then again he could get out of the gates hot and never look back. It only takes 4 good recruits a year for a couple straight year to change the trajectory.
-
https://theringer.com/archie-miller-indiana-hoosiers-basketball-tom-crean-dbe7b96b398b