MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 24, 2017, 10:57:32 AM
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Finally got my first round of the free agent tracker up and posted. JJJJJ, you can stop calling my house now ;D
Questions, thoughts, concerns, suggestions all welcome
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Finally got my first round of the free agent tracker up and posted. JJJJJ, you can stop calling my house now ;D
Questions, thoughts, concerns, suggestions all welcome
Related question:
When the stats for "on track to graduate" are calculated, are redshirts still expected to do so in 4 years? Otherwise, I could imagine that some of the squirmier programs may be tempted to, let's say, not exactly encourage that, and therefore, hinder a redshirt's ability to become a grad transfer.
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Kerem Kanter (brother of Enes) added his name to the grad transfer list today. The 6'10" Green Bay forward averaged 11.3/6.3 this past season. He's testing the draft waters, but expect him to be back as a grad transfer next year. Not sure he'd be as much a Marquette target anymore with Froling in the fold.
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Steven Enoch of UConn is transferring from UConn
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Thanks, TAMU. Not a ton out there to be excited about right now, but definitely a few names. I look forward to following this over the next few weeks.
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Steven Enoch of UConn is transferring from UConn
The Free Agent tracker has a similar rule to your podcast. The second I post it, there will be new information that makes it irrelevant.
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Thanks, TAMU. Not a ton out there to be excited about right now, but definitely a few names. I look forward to following this over the next few weeks.
Maybe not a ton to be excited about, but I am excited that the top 4 are all guards with size, and three of them are known as superior defenders. I think that hits on some of our biggest needs.
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Nigel Johnson from Rutgers grad transferring.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/67250/nigel-johnson (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/67250/nigel-johnson)
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Not a grad transfer, but another interesting traditional trasnfer.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947120/nisre-zouzoua (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947120/nisre-zouzoua)
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Not a grad transfer, but another interesting traditional trasnfer.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947120/nisre-zouzoua (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3947120/nisre-zouzoua)
Is he a good defender?
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Hey y'all. Free Agent tracker updated today. Lots of additions.
Quick note, was written before Cameron Johnson announced his intent to transfer. Would be on this list if he had announced a day sooner.
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Grad transfer tracker updated. Expanded it to a top 15 with 10 bonus names, free of charge.
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Thanks for the update TAMU.
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Can add soon-to-be former Badger Jordan Hill to the list.
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Can add soon-to-be former Badger Jordan Hill to the list.
To the transfer list? Sure. To the top-25? No chance.
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Egor visiting Iowa State next weekend. Still have not seen us mentioned with him outside of Big Daddy.
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Egor visiting Iowa State next weekend. Still have not seen us mentioned with him outside of Big Daddy.
Next comrade up, hey?
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I was not able to go to the banquet last night. But I know Stan is still working on Egor.
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Egor visiting Iowa State next weekend. Still have not seen us mentioned with him outside of Big Daddy.
But you've also seen no one else mentioned him until he announces a visit. Doesn't mean we are involved but doesn't mean we aren't either. 2 more visits to go. Clearly he's saving the best for last.
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I was not able to go to the banquet last night. But I know Stan is still working on Egor.
Thanks
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I was not able to go to the banquet last night. But I know Stan is still working on Egor.
That's actually not good news..with the previous relationship between the two, Stan should have had that wrapped up(a visit) awhile ago. In other words, if it's taking this long to convince him, he probably really doesn't want to be at MU anyway and even if you got a visit from him it would prob just essentially be a "courtesy" visit anyway. :(
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That's actually not good news..with the previous relationship between the two, Stan should have had that wrapped up(a visit) awhile ago. In other words, if it's taking this long to convince him, he probably really doesn't want to be at MU anyway and even if you got a visit from him it would prob just essentially be a "courtesy" visit anyway. :(
Not necessarily. He could be getting his lukewarm* ones out of the way first. Though I admit, I'd have a hard time choosing MU over Florida.
I'd love to land Egor, but there are tons of other interesting grad transfers out there. Hope Wojo and Stan have more sticks in the fire.
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Not necessarily. He could be getting his like warm ones out of the way first. Though I admit, I'd have a hard time choosing MU over Florida.
I'd love to land Egor, but there are tons of other interesting grad transfers out there. Hope Wojo and Stan have more sticks in the fire.
"Interesting" maybe, but none that would bring the impact to MU next year like Egor would. Cam Johnson may be a close 2nd.
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I was not able to go to the banquet last night. But I know Stan is still working on Egor.
Trying to stay positive but this doesn't exactly sound promising.
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Free Agent tracker updated. One new name in the top 15 and one name taken away.
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Al Freeman committed to NC State.
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Egor committed to Florida last night.
I apologize if that was already stated in the thread.
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Egor committed to Florida last night.
I apologize if that was already stated in the thread.
Thanks for the update. Hopefully we can land Ed Morrow.
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Thanks for the update. Hopefully we can land Ed Morrow.
Why?
So we won't have any scholly's for 6 Top 50 players we are visiting over the next 2 weeks.....
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Why?
So we won't have any scholly's for 6 Top 50 players we are visiting over the next 2 weeks.....
Because he's a really good player.
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Why?
So we won't have any scholly's for 6 Top 50 players we are visiting over the next 2 weeks.....
Because a 2018-2019 starting rosters of:
1: JR Markus Howard
2: SR Haanif Cheatham
3: JR Sam Hauser
4: RSJR: Ed Morrow
5: JR Harry Froling
with a bench of:
FR Joey Hauser
SR Matt Heldt
RSJR Sacar Anim
SO Jamal Cain
SO Greg Elliott
20 year old FR Brendan Bailey
SO Theo John
SO Ike Eke
Gives me a raging roster boner. If you aren't having the same reaction, you my need some Cialis
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I do not see Cain or Elliott and maybe even Sacar sitting and watching HC start games.
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I do not see Cain or Elliott and maybe even Sacar sitting and watching HC start games.
I agree with this analysis.
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I do not see Cain or Elliott and maybe even Sacar sitting and watching HC start games.
Starting no matta, hey?
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Because a 2018-2019 starting rosters of:
1: JR Markus Howard
2: SR Haanif Cheatham
3: JR Sam Hauser
4: RSJR: Ed Morrow
5: JR Harry Froling
with a bench of:
FR Joey Hauser
SR Matt Heldt
RSJR Sacar Anim
SO Jamal Cain
SO Greg Elliott
20 year old FR Brendan Bailey
SO Theo John
SO Ike Eke
Gives me a raging roster boner. If you aren't having the same reaction, you my need some Cialis
Wattever turns ya on, man, ai na?
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Because a 2018-2019 starting rosters of:
1: JR Markus Howard
2: SR Haanif Cheatham
3: JR Sam Hauser
4: RSJR: Ed Morrow
5: JR Harry Froling
with a bench of:
FR Joey Hauser
SR Matt Heldt
RSJR Sacar Anim
SO Jamal Cain
SO Greg Elliott
20 year old FR Brendan Bailey
SO Theo John
SO Ike Eke
Gives me a raging roster boner. If you aren't having the same reaction, you my need some Cialis
Joey Hauser will not be riding the pine to start the game...
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I do not see Cain or Elliott and maybe even Sacar sitting and watching HC start games.
And last summer when I said HC was our 5th best player people said I was crazy and that he would be our all star. Lots can happen between now and 2018. Cain, Elliott, and Sacar may all pass HC on the depth chart. But I'm not ready to crown two three star freshmen and a kid who got 5 minutes a game while Haanif was getting 30 minutes a game as better than a guy who has spent most of his first two years starting.
Joey Hauser will not be riding the pine to start the game...
Certainly possible. I am sure I don't know what the rotation will be 2 years from now. But if Joey is good enough to replace a JR Sam Hauser, a RSJR Ed Morrow, or JR Harry Froling as a true freshman....than either they ended up not developing as I expected or we are going to have a VERY special team.
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Or maybe Joey will decide he wants to spend his college years someplace else.
People talking like he is already committed is strange.
He has lots of good options and if he decides to go elseware I hope people deal with it well......but I know they won't.
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Ok--time will certainly tell. In two years if HC is starting, or as you say "better" than the players I mentioned.... he has made a HUGE jump and has greatly improved his game--which would be fantastic.
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Respect the process, ai'na?
Nobody knows who will be on the roster, let alone how good each player on the roster will be, in a year, let alone in 2 years.
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Or maybe Joey will decide he wants to spend his college years someplace else.
People talking like he is already committed is strange.
Absolutely. Just speculating on what the future could look like.
He has lots of good options and if he decides to go elseware I hope people deal with it well......but I know they won't.
C'mon, you know better than that!
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Ok--time will certainly tell. In two years if HC is starting, or as you say "better" than the players I mentioned.... he has made a HUGE jump and has greatly improved his game--which would be fantastic.
It would be fantastic. Also, similar to how people overestimated Cheatham's value last season, I think they are underestimating his value this season. I also only have highlight videos and recruiting service rankings to compare Cain/Elliott to Cheatham. Highlight videos don't do much for me and with Cain and Elliot both being ranked in the 140-200 range, I don't expect much more than bench minutes from them this season. If they are being undervalued (which I suspect they might be based on my amateur observations) than they will surpass that and I will be very happy. I also see no reason to think that Sacar has progressed so dramatically that he could have covered the ground between he and Cheatham during his redshirt year. Because FR year, Cheatham could eat Sacar's lunch and have room for dessert.
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Or maybe Joey will decide he wants to spend his college years someplace else.
People talking like he is already committed is strange.
He has lots of good options and if he decides to go elseware I hope people deal with it well......but I know they won't.
This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
Lol.
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
Where do you come up with shi*?
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
No I don't.
Every coach loses recruits that they work hard for......Bo lost Henry to Wojo and Stone to Maryland.
If you can't handle that then you should really find another hobby.
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
Wait did I miss something here. Joey has loss his free will to make his own decisions. Wow even us Posters have that.
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
Get help. Seriously.
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This is the classic..preparing to let wojo off the hook if Joey goes elsewhere. If he does..make no mistake about it..that is NOT at all a good look for Wojo. After all the time he has spent on him..having a brother and another good friend on the team..you'll blow it off as "Joey made the best decision for him"..making it sound like it was just that cut and dry. Uh uh mark..this would be a HUGE black eye for Wojo..whether you'd publicly admit it or not. You know better.
I don't think losing Joey is a black eye for Wojo. Nor do I think an inordinate amount of time has been put in on Joey. I am no fan of Wojo but he is a very good recruiter, if he doesn't get Joey to join us , I am pretty sure we will get someone of equal or better ability. Wojo and his sidekick Stan have a lot of irons in the fire for 2018. Joey has not even announced his finalist yet. So I am quietly hoping the young man comes our way, but am also very keen on a number of the other prospects we are looking at.
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It would be fantastic. Also, similar to how people overestimated Cheatham's value last season, I think they are underestimating his value this season. I also only have highlight videos and recruiting service rankings to compare Cain/Elliott to Cheatham. Highlight videos don't do much for me and with Cain and Elliot both being ranked in the 140-200 range, I don't expect much more than bench minutes from them this season. If they are being undervalued (which I suspect they might be based on my amateur observations) than they will surpass that and I will be very happy. I also see no reason to think that Sacar has progressed so dramatically that he could have covered the ground between he and Cheatham during his redshirt year. Because FR year, Cheatham could eat Sacar's lunch and have room for dessert.
Keep the faith. HC's value, or perceived Scoop value, is low. With incoming players playing similar position and potential lineup changes over the next two years, HC value expectations should be quelled. But if you feel he is being undervalued or underestimated--that's cool.
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Markel Crawford to Ole Miss.
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Get help. Seriously.
Yep
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Keep the faith. HC's value, or perceived Scoop value, is low. With incoming players playing similar position and potential lineup changes over the next two years, HC value expectations should be quelled. But if you feel he is being undervalued or underestimated--that's cool.
I like this. pSv, a new advanced stat
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I don't think losing Joey is a black eye for Wojo. Nor do I think an inordinate amount of time has been put in on Joey. I am no fan of Wojo but he is a very good recruiter, if he doesn't get Joey to join us , I am pretty sure we will get someone of equal or better ability. Wojo and his sidekick Stan have a lot of irons in the fire for 2018. Joey has not even announced his finalist yet. So I am quietly hoping the young man comes our way, but am also very keen on a number of the other prospects we are looking at.
When MUFINY is the voice of reason...Seriously, guru, you really need to find some level of chill.
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When MUFINY is the voice of reason...Seriously, guru, you really need to find some level of chill.
So all of you would be okay with seeing Joey in badger red?? That would absolutely suck, and if any of you don't think so..then there are badger boards to post on for your fandom. Duh, I get Coaches lose recruits all the time..but for those of you that are a little slow..when a kid commits elsewhere it's not only on the kid, the coach has to take some level of responsibility for losing him. It's a two way street. Now maybe if it's a kid where you really had no shot at, got in the game late etc, okay that's a different ball game.
When a recruit has a brother that plays on the team(especially when they are close), and another good friend, and you have been recruiting him harder and longer than any other coach, and he still decides to go elsewhere..especially an in state rival?? Look Joey is not the be all end all, I get that, especially if Wojo rebounds by landing a Kahvon Moore or something, but losing Joey to Wisconsin should sting a lot to each and every one of you. Michigan State...I can live with that.
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Wojo should be held accountable for the results of the program -- not for the decision of a high school kid on where to go to college.
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So all of you would be okay with seeing Joey in badger red?? That would absolutely suck, and if any of you don't think so..then there are badger boards to post on for your fandom. Duh, I get Coaches lose recruits all the time..but for those of you that are a little slow..when a kid commits elsewhere it's not only on the kid, the coach has to take some level of responsibility for losing him. It's a two way street. Now maybe if it's a kid where you really had no shot at, got in the game late etc, okay that's a different ball game.
When a recruit has a brother that plays on the team(especially when they are close), and another good friend, and you have been recruiting him harder and longer than any other coach, and he still decides to go elsewhere..especially an in state rival?? Look Joey is not the be all end all, I get that, especially if Wojo rebounds by landing a Kahvon Moore or something, but losing Joey to Wisconsin should sting a lot to each and every one of you. Michigan State...I can live with that.
I'll use the dots to give your brain time to understand this simple point:
coaches... can... not... be... judged... based... on... individual... recruits... decisions.... but... must... be... judged... on... a... body... of... work... over... multiple... years... and... Wojo... is... doing.... well... in.... that... framework.
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Cripes you people sure make leaps here...where did i say that not landing Joey ruins Wojo's entire tenure as a Coach, or that it's the defining moment?? I never said that! All i said was..it would not be a good look for Wojo losing Joey when he has just about ever advantage going for him. That is all I said. And it wouldn't be a good look. That's indisputable, but if that's the worst thing that happens under Wojo's tenure, I'm good with that. As of this moment, the book is still out on Wojo. I know a lot of you wet your pants with excitement over them making the tourney..but that should be far from their defining moment under Wojo. If you are content with just getting in the tourney, then so far you are probably in love with Wojo, he's done that for you. He has recruiting well so far for the most part. I'll give him that.
You all are the same group that heaped endless praise on Wojo for his ability to land Henry..yet wouldn't ding him if he lost Joey. Hmmm..you can't have it both ways..If a Coach gets all the praise when he lands someone, then he too also has to take at least some responsibility in losing someone(depending on circumstances of course). So..kid commits=Praise....Kid doesn't commit=That's just the way recruiting is. All on a "HS kids decision". Got it.
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I like this. pSv, a new advanced stat
Or we could go with Puv (Preseason Underestimating Value).
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Or maybe Joey will decide he wants to spend his college years someplace else.
People talking like he is already committed is strange.
He has lots of good options and if he decides to go elseware I hope people deal with it well......but I know they won't.
I have no doubt that Joey and his family love MU. However, I feel in the end it will be the fact that Joey and Sam will be completing for playing time that will result in Joey in going elsewhere.
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I like this. pSv, a new advanced stat
Then we need ppSv and fpSv present and future perceived values.
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I have no doubt that Joey and his family love MU. However, I feel in the end it will be the fact that Joey and Sam will be completing for playing time that will result in Joey in going elsewhere.
This is not accurate
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Cripes you people sure make leaps here...where did i say that not landing Joey ruins Wojo's entire tenure as a Coach, or that it's the defining moment?? I never said that! All i said was..it would not be a good look for Wojo losing Joey when he has just about ever advantage going for him. That is all I said. And it wouldn't be a good look. That's indisputable, but if that's the worst thing that happens under Wojo's tenure, I'm good with that. As of this moment, the book is still out on Wojo. I know a lot of you wet your pants with excitement over them making the tourney..but that should be far from their defining moment under Wojo. If you are content with just getting in the tourney, then so far you are probably in love with Wojo, he's done that for you. He has recruiting well so far for the most part. I'll give him that.
You all are the same group that heaped endless praise on Wojo for his ability to land Henry..yet wouldn't ding him if he lost Joey. Hmmm..you can't have it both ways..If a Coach gets all the praise when he lands someone, then he too also has to take at least some responsibility in losing someone(depending on circumstances of course). So..kid commits=Praise....Kid doesn't commit=That's just the way recruiting is. All on a "HS kids decision". Got it.
Who the heck cares about Wisconsin? I don't live in the state and have never been on a Badger board and my life has been just fine. Wojo is doing all he can to land Joey. If he goes elsewhere, then next man up. Chances are Wojo is not the only factor in his decision. Perhaps he wants a bigger school? Maybe he wants to play in the Big 10? To somehow lay this decision at Wojo's feet is silly.
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So all of you would be okay with seeing Joey in badger red?? That would absolutely suck, and if any of you don't think so..then there are badger boards to post on for your fandom. Duh, I get Coaches lose recruits all the time..but for those of you that are a little slow..when a kid commits elsewhere it's not only on the kid, the coach has to take some level of responsibility for losing him. It's a two way street. Now maybe if it's a kid where you really had no shot at, got in the game late etc, okay that's a different ball game.
When a recruit has a brother that plays on the team(especially when they are close), and another good friend, and you have been recruiting him harder and longer than any other coach, and he still decides to go elsewhere..especially an in state rival?? Look Joey is not the be all end all, I get that, especially if Wojo rebounds by landing a Kahvon Moore or something, but losing Joey to Wisconsin should sting a lot to each and every one of you. Michigan State...I can live with that.
Clearly if we do not lose our sh*t on a message board, we are just a bunch of Badger fans.
If where an 18 year old kid decides to go to school bothers you this much, you should probably take up knitting or something.
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Cripes you people sure make leaps here...where did i say that not landing Joey ruins Wojo's entire tenure as a Coach, or that it's the defining moment?? I never said that! All i said was..it would not be a good look for Wojo losing Joey when he has just about ever advantage going for him. That is all I said. And it wouldn't be a good look. That's indisputable, but if that's the worst thing that happens under Wojo's tenure, I'm good with that. As of this moment, the book is still out on Wojo. I know a lot of you wet your pants with excitement over them making the tourney..but that should be far from their defining moment under Wojo. If you are content with just getting in the tourney, then so far you are probably in love with Wojo, he's done that for you. He has recruiting well so far for the most part. I'll give him that.
You all are the same group that heaped endless praise on Wojo for his ability to land Henry..yet wouldn't ding him if he lost Joey. Hmmm..you can't have it both ways..If a Coach gets all the praise when he lands someone, then he too also has to take at least some responsibility in losing someone(depending on circumstances of course). So..kid commits=Praise....Kid doesn't commit=That's just the way recruiting is. All on a "HS kids decision". Got it.
When Jason Capel decided to not follow his brother to Duke, and instead went to rival North Carolina, was it a bad look for Coach K? Or was it a kid making a decision based on his own free will?
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I have no doubt that Joey and his family love MU. However, I feel in the end it will be the fact that Joey and Sam will be completing for playing time that will result in Joey in going elsewhere.
He may not end up at Marquette (although we are the overwhelming favorite), but THIS will most definitely not be a reason he doesn't come here.
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Highlight videos don't do much for me and with Cain and Elliot both being ranked in the 140-200 range, I don't expect much more than bench minutes from them this season. If they are being undervalued (which I suspect they might be based on my amateur observations) than they will surpass that and I will be very happy.
If Cain and Elliot are "fairly valued" in the 140-200 range this recruiting class will very likely be a disappointing one.
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He may not end up at Marquette (although we are the overwhelming favorite), but THIS will most definitely not be a reason he doesn't come here.
Come on, don't you know that Joey went to Pacelli HS because Sam was going to be stealing all his minutes in basketball? Err...
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Why?
So we won't have any scholly's for 6 Top 50 players we are visiting over the next 2 weeks.....
Yes... Wojo's diabolical plan...entails filling up the roster...
so that he can't get...
highly ranked players...
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If Cain and Elliot are "fairly valued" in the 140-200 range this recruiting class will very likely be a disappointing one.
Well unless they turn in performances like Markus and Sam, I think scoopers think all recruiting classes are disappointing. If they are "fairly valued" I won't be disappointed in the slightest. We needed a lot of bodies and had a lot of needs to fill. We don't need any of the freshmen to play major minutes next season. If Cain, Elliott, and John are the three last players in our rotation and Eke redshirts, we should still turn in a quality season. I would then fully expect them to continue to develop and eventually become high quality starters as upperclassmen.
From what I can see, Wojo is trying to build a program where freshman don't need to come in and carry a team. He had freshmen carry his teams in 15-16 and 16-17. I think 17-18 is the first season where that won't need to happen and I think we will be a better team for it.
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Yes... Wojo's diabolical plan...entails filling up the roster...
so that he can't get...
highly ranked players...
.....+1 8-)
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I expect Elliott to get some minutes, maybe 20 for sure as a back-up to both guards. So he will get good minutes from the start. Cain will battle Cheatham and
Anim at the SF position, best man is going to win there, but Cain will get 15-20 in my estimation. John will get early minutes with Froling out and maybe become
the starter over Held. So I would say the frosh will get minutes next year. The following year even if they get Joey will be a fight for playing time. Secondly, Joey
is good but he is not a savior. He looks better than Sam in some ways, a little bigger, probably not as good a shooter, and neither are quick jumpers. Takes time
away from Sam, wonder how Wojo is spinning that?
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I expect Elliott to get some minutes, maybe 20 for sure as a back-up to both guards. So he will get good minutes from the start. Cain will battle Cheatham and
Anim at the SF position, best man is going to win there, but Cain will get 15-20 in my estimation. John will get early minutes with Froling out and maybe become
the starter over Held. So I would say the frosh will get minutes next year. The following year even if they get Joey will be a fight for playing time. Secondly, Joey
is good but he is not a savior. He looks better than Sam in some ways, a little bigger, probably not as good a shooter, and neither are quick jumpers. Takes time
away from Sam, wonder how Wojo is spinning that?
All we can do is Ponder and wait for things to be revealed. I'm thinking that Sacar gets many minutes at the 2.
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I expect Elliott to get some minutes, maybe 20 for sure as a back-up to both guards. So he will get good minutes from the start. Cain will battle Cheatham and
Anim at the SF position, best man is going to win there, but Cain will get 15-20 in my estimation. John will get early minutes with Froling out and maybe become
the starter over Held. So I would say the frosh will get minutes next year. The following year even if they get Joey will be a fight for playing time. Secondly, Joey
is good but he is not a savior. He looks better than Sam in some ways, a little bigger, probably not as good a shooter, and neither are quick jumpers. Takes time
away from Sam, wonder how Wojo is spinning that?
Pretty simply. "You guys are both studs. You play different positions. Sam's already a major contributor for us. I can't wait to have you join him on the court at Marquette."
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I have no doubt that Joey and his family love MU. However, I feel in the end it will be the fact that Joey and Sam will be completing for playing time that will result in Joey in going elsewhere.
This is accurate in the sense that all players on the same team compete for minutes but Joey and Sam won't be playing the same position no matter where Joey goes.
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Pretty simply. "You guys are both studs. You play different positions. Sam's already a major contributor for us. I can't wait to have you join him on the court at Marquette."
This. Of course. There is no real need for Wojo to "spin" anything, just tell the truth to the Hausers.
As for muguru, buddy, you gotta settle down. You are completely losing your mind about something that might never happen, or it might happen but it's out of your control. Hell, it's basically out of Wojo's control, too.
I hope you are not this over-the-top loony about everything in your life.
"We're running out of Quaker Oat Squares! Get me more Quaker Oat Squares! If there are no Quaker Oat Squares in that cabinet tomorrow, it will be a horrible reflection on the shopper in this family!"
Keep things in perspective, man! Get a grip!
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I have no doubt that Joey and his family love MU. However, I feel in the end it will be the fact that Joey and Sam will be completing for playing time that will result in Joey in going elsewhere.
You must have never had brothers. I never thought my brother was better than me at anything. I don't think Joey will have any doubts about his ability to get playing time over his brother.
Also, as others said, the two can play the same position but are better at other positions. Sam can play the 2, 3, and 4. Joey can play the 3,4, and 5.
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You must have never had brothers. I never thought my brother was better than me at anything. I don't think Joey will have any doubts about his ability to get playing time over his brother.
Also, as others said, the two can play the same position but are better at other positions. Sam can play the 2, 3, and 4. Joey can play the 3,4, and 5.
You really think Sam can play the 2 or 3? He can play them but could he guard anyone, not quick enough? Stretch 4 is his best position. For Joey, I think he
could play the 3.
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You really think Sam can play the 2 or 3? He can play them but could he guard anyone, not quick enough? Stretch 4 is his best position. For Joey, I think he
could play the 3.
Sam is a wing that can play the 4 if needed. I think he could play the 2 against certain teams.
From everything I can tell, Joey is a PF.
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Well unless they turn in performances like Markus and Sam, I think scoopers think all recruiting classes are disappointing. If they are "fairly valued" I won't be disappointed in the slightest. We needed a lot of bodies and had a lot of needs to fill. We don't need any of the freshmen to play major minutes next season. If Cain, Elliott, and John are the three last players in our rotation and Eke redshirts, we should still turn in a quality season. I would then fully expect them to continue to develop and eventually become high quality starters as upperclassmen.
From what I can see, Wojo is trying to build a program where freshman don't need to come in and carry a team. He had freshmen carry his teams in 15-16 and 16-17. I think 17-18 is the first season where that won't need to happen and I think we will be a better team for it.
We had two really good freshman starters last year but claiming they "carried" the team is nonsense.
Regarding this year's recruiting class - my hopes are that it is seriously undervalued by the "gurus". Otherwise the news isn't great. Rivals has 17 top 150 kids coming to the Big East, only one of whom (Cain) is heading to Marquette.
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So all of you would be okay with seeing Joey in badger red?? That would absolutely suck, and if any of you don't think so..then there are badger boards to post on for your fandom. Duh, I get Coaches lose recruits all the time..but for those of you that are a little slow..when a kid commits elsewhere it's not only on the kid, the coach has to take some level of responsibility for losing him. It's a two way street. Now maybe if it's a kid where you really had no shot at, got in the game late etc, okay that's a different ball game.
When a recruit has a brother that plays on the team(especially when they are close), and another good friend, and you have been recruiting him harder and longer than any other coach, and he still decides to go elsewhere..especially an in state rival?? Look Joey is not the be all end all, I get that, especially if Wojo rebounds by landing a Kahvon Moore or something, but losing Joey to Wisconsin should sting a lot to each and every one of you. Michigan State...I can live with that.
I think you are missing the forest through the trees.
MU just signed up 3 high end players from the Detroit Public and Catholic League. 2 were finalists for Mr. Basketball in Michigan and the other was the starting center as a Junior on the Class A state Champion. They play in two of the historically best high school leagues in the whole country. They all played together on the same club team. They are all tremendously athletic with high ceilings. This is a huge recruiting achievement. Michigan State or Michigan have rarely achieved this kind of recruiting success in their own backyard. MU has made a lot of noise in the Detroit high school basketball community which is a very good thing.
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We had two really good freshman starters last year but claiming they "carried" the team is nonsense.
Regarding this year's recruiting class - my hopes are that it is seriously undervalued by the "gurus". Otherwise the news isn't great. Rivals has 17 top 150 kids coming to the Big East, only one of whom (Cain) is heading to Marquette.
We had two true freshmen starting and they were two our four best players. One was arguably our best player. If "relied on major contributions from true freshmen" makes you more comfortable go ahead and call it that. The point is, I'm looking forward to having teams where upperclassmen are the starters and freshmen come off the bench because our upperclassmen are just that good.
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Sam is a wing that can play the 4 if needed. I think he could play the 2 against certain teams.
From everything I can tell, Joey is a PF.
Why do you say Sam is a wing? Last year, he barely could put the ball on the floor against the 4, the 4 on most teams is not quick. Sam is not quick. Will have
to adjust, does he try and get bigger to play the 4 or smaller to improve quickness??
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This is accurate in the sense that all players on the same team compete for minutes but Joey and Sam won't be playing the same position no matter where Joey goes.
Sam only gets the easy minutes
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Get help. Seriously.
What position does Help play?
More importantly, what other programs are recruiting him?
What current player would his signing drive to transfer?
What is his neck size?
No more of these vague player posts, please. We've got to give Stan and Wojo more to go on; that's what they're paying us for.
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When did Joey go to Pacelli. He went to SPASH in St. Pt.
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What position does Help play?
More importantly, what other programs are recruiting him?
What current player would his signing drive to transfer?
What is his neck size?
No more of these vague player posts, please. We've got to give Stan and Wojo more to go on; that's what they're paying us for.
Matt Help's younger brother, A'Little.
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When did Joey go to Pacelli. He went to SPASH in St. Pt.
Oh Earl
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Matt Help's younger brother, A'Little.
It's the youngest brother, Weakside, that I'd keep an eye on.
Strong defensively.
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You really think Sam can play the 2 or 3? He can play them but could he guard anyone, not quick enough? Stretch 4 is his best position. For Joey, I think he
could play the 3.
Sam was happy playing the four, because that is what allowed him to play. We now have players coming in next year, especially when Froling becomes eligible that could push him out of the four spot. He then has to compete with Cheatham and Cain for playing time. I think Sam ends up starting at three once Froling is eligible. Joey coming in means he is fighting Sam for playing time at three and Froling for playing time at the four, both of those players will have two year's left. Bailey also fits in there somewhere. Looking at Wisconsin's roster, I do not see much competition that will limit Joey's playing time. However, I think he is more likely to go to Notre Dame then Wisconsin, if he does not pick MU.
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Nate Reuvers is a highly regarded 4 man who will be a year ahead of Joey if he goes to UW.
Your prediction about ND is curious.....they just offered......definitely behind MU,MSU AND UW in the pecking order from what I have heard from people who should know.
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When did Joey go to Pacelli. He went to SPASH in St. Pt.
(https://m.popkey.co/49e5b4/EpbLm_s-200x150.gif)
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Why do you say Sam is a wing? Last year, he barely could put the ball on the floor against the 4, the 4 on most teams is not quick. Sam is not quick. Will have
to adjust, does he try and get bigger to play the 4 or smaller to improve quickness??
Hard sugar coat hauser on defense, he's bad. It's not effort, he's just slow footed and weak at this point. I think his best option is the 4, easier to add strength vs. quickness. I think Hauser is a perfect 6th or 7th man for a very good team. Comes in and plays 20-24 minutes a rains 3s.
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Hard sugar coat hauser on defense, he's bad. It's not effort, he's just slow footed and weak at this point. I think his best option is the 4, easier to add strength vs. quickness. I think Hauser is a perfect 6th or 7th man for a very good team. Comes in and plays 20-24 minutes a rains 3s.
I think Hauser was unquestionably one of our 3 best defenders last year, and very well may have been our best. Only one game stuck out as a bad defensive performance, and that was when he was tasked with trying to guard Chrabascz. Otherwise he is very good at moving his feet to stay in front of his man and letting the guy bounce back off his chest on the dribble, is typically good with his help rotations, and is a good rebounder. I think we'll see his offensive game expand and he'll be one of our 2 best players for the next 3 years.
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I think Hauser was unquestionably one of our 3 best defenders last year, and very well may have been our best. Only one game stuck out as a bad defensive performance, and that was when he was tasked with trying to guard Chrabascz. Otherwise he is very good at moving his feet to stay in front of his man and letting the guy bounce back off his chest on the dribble, is typically good with his help rotations, and is a good rebounder. I think we'll see his offensive game expand and he'll be one of our 2 best players for the next 3 years.
Also, I don't think he gets enough credit for his shot blocking.
19 blocks is not a huge number, but considering his defensive assignment was usually bigger than him, it's not bad.
Also 15 of those 19 blocks came in conference play.
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Not counting walkons, Sam Hauser was fourth on the team in Defensive Rating.
Tied Luke for 2nd on team for defensive win shares.
Not a great defender, but far from our worst.
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Sam was happy playing the four, because that is what allowed him to play. We now have players coming in next year, especially when Froling becomes eligible that could push him out of the four spot. He then has to compete with Cheatham and Cain for playing time. I think Sam ends up starting at three once Froling is eligible. Joey coming in means he is fighting Sam for playing time at three and Froling for playing time at the four, both of those players will have two year's left. Bailey also fits in there somewhere. Looking at Wisconsin's roster, I do not see much competition that will limit Joey's playing time. However, I think he is more likely to go to Notre Dame then Wisconsin, if he does not pick MU.
Trust me, Joey is not concerned at all about fighting Sam for playing time. And if he's scared of fighting Theo John and Ike Eke for playing time...then either they are a lot better or Joey is a lot worse than we thought. Harry will be at the 5, not the 4. There are possible situations where Harry and Heldt could play at the same time but I wouldn't expect it.
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Hard sugar coat hauser on defense, he's bad. It's not effort, he's just slow footed and weak at this point. I think his best option is the 4, easier to add strength vs. quickness. I think Hauser is a perfect 6th or 7th man for a very good team. Comes in and plays 20-24 minutes a rains 3s.
Advanced stats disagree with you. Sam was one of our best defenders. Don't have time now but may go into depth later
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Sam's defense was usually good, and sometimes very good. If only every other Warrior had executed defensively as well as Sam did. One of the pleasant surprises of the 2016-17 season.
I would love it if our team was so good that Sam was a 20-25-minute backup. We'll be in the Final Four at least once, maybe twice!
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Not counting walkons, Sam Hauser was fourth on the team in Defensive Rating.
Tied Luke for 2nd on team for defensive win shares.
Not a great defender, but far from our worst.
Being the 4th best defender on an epically bad defensive team is, at best, damning with faint praise.
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Sam's defense was usually good, and sometimes very good. If only every other Warrior had executed defensively as well as Sam did. One of the pleasant surprises of the 2016-17 season.
I would love it if our team was so good that Sam was a 20-25-minute backup. We'll be in the Final Four at least once, maybe twice!
Nobody's defense on last year's team was "usually good".
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Being the 4th best defender on an epically bad defensive team is, at best, damning with faint praise.
Whatever you say, Lenny.
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........... However, I think he is more likely to go to Notre Dame then Wisconsin, if he does not pick MU.
If Joey goes to ND then transfers to Wisconsin muguru's head is going to explode creating a blast zone of negative thoughts 50 miles wide.
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Nobody's defense on last year's team was "usually good".
For the most part you are correct. A brief look at synergy tells me that most of our players were well below average on defense. There were three exceptions. Sam and Katin were actually above average across the board with Sam being the better of the two.
The interesting one is JJJ. This is the first time I ever ran his numbers. He was an elite on ball defender last season with "Excellent" or "Very Good" ratings in defending P&R, screen, hand off, and isolation situations. However, his defense of spot up shooters was ABYSMAL. He ranked in the bottom 2% of all players with ppp allowed of 1.382 on spot up shots. Never seen such a dichotomy before. Some of it has to be luck.
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If Joey goes to ND then transfers to Wisconsin muguru's head is going to explode creating a blast zone of negative thoughts 50 miles wide.
Hiroshima, hey?
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For the most part you are correct. A brief look at synergy tells me that most of our players were well below average on defense. There were three exceptions. Sam and Katin were actually above average across the board with Sam being the better of the two.
The interesting one is JJJ. This is the first time I ever ran his numbers. He was an elite on ball defender last season with "Excellent" or "Very Good" ratings in defending P&R, screen, hand off, and isolation situations. However, his defense of spot up shooters was ABYSMAL. He ranked in the bottom 2% of all players with ppp allowed of 1.382 on spot up shots. Never seen such a dichotomy before. Some of it has to be luck.
JJJ was an excellent on ball defender. Duane was pretty good. So was Traci. Nobody else on the perimeter could stop dribble penetration at all. Haanif and Katin were bad, Rowsey and Markus were awful. I wouldn't give Sam, Matt or Luke grades for on ball D because they played inside. They were all pretty bad on defense, though - takes team effort to be that collectively bad.
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Hiroshima, hey?
Nagaguru?
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Cripes you people sure make leaps here...where did i say that not landing Joey ruins Wojo's entire tenure as a Coach, or that it's the defining moment?? I never said that! All i said was..it would not be a good look for Wojo losing Joey when he has just about ever advantage going for him. That is all I said. And it wouldn't be a good look. That's indisputable, but if that's the worst thing that happens under Wojo's tenure, I'm good with that. As of this moment, the book is still out on Wojo. I know a lot of you wet your pants with excitement over them making the tourney..but that should be far from their defining moment under Wojo. If you are content with just getting in the tourney, then so far you are probably in love with Wojo, he's done that for you. He has recruiting well so far for the most part. I'll give him that.
You all are the same group that heaped endless praise on Wojo for his ability to land Henry..yet wouldn't ding him if he lost Joey. Hmmm..you can't have it both ways..If a Coach gets all the praise when he lands someone, then he too also has to take at least some responsibility in losing someone(depending on circumstances of course). So..kid commits=Praise....Kid doesn't commit=That's just the way recruiting is. All on a "HS kids decision". Got it.
I see the problem here. Your ability to think logically is flawed. If a task that someone doesn't succeed at is so difficult that "we" don't criticize them for falling short (i.e. we wouldn't ding Wojo for not landing Joey) then it follows logically that we would praise that person (Wojo) for succeeding at a very similar task (getting Henry). Yet, you argue that the two are somehow inconsistent ("you can't have it both ways").
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I see the problem here. Your ability to think logically is flawed. If a task that someone doesn't succeed at is so difficult that "we" don't criticize them for falling short (i.e. we wouldn't ding Wojo for not landing Joey) then it follows logically that we would praise that person (Wojo) for succeeding at a very similar task (getting Henry). Yet, you argue that the two are somehow inconsistent ("you can't have it both ways").
It's like praising someone for climbing Mount Everest, only to criticize them when they failed to climb K2.
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I see the problem here. Your ability to think logically is flawed. If a task that someone doesn't succeed at is so difficult that "we" don't criticize them for falling short (i.e. we wouldn't ding Wojo for not landing Joey) then it follows logically that we would praise that person (Wojo) for succeeding at a very similar task (getting Henry). Yet, you argue that the two are somehow inconsistent ("you can't have it both ways").
No..the point I'm trying to make is if Wojo can't be held responsible for an 18 year old making a decision of his "own free will"(like stated here..ie Joey choosing to go someplace else"..then why does he get massive amounts of praise for landing Henry who also made a decision of his "own free will"? You can't make a statement like "own free will"=(solely of his own doing, a conscious decision he made on his own..with no outside influence either way) and apply it to one situation and not the other. By making that statement..it's implying it's solely on the kid.
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Didn't make Cam Johnson's final 6.
Arizona, tOSU, Kentucky, Oregon, UCLA, TCU
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Oregon or UCLA is my bet, with Oregon favorite as they lost there 3 best players.
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No..the point I'm trying to make is if Wojo can't be held responsible for an 18 year old making a decision of his "own free will"(like stated here..ie Joey choosing to go someplace else"..then why does he get massive amounts of praise for landing Henry who also made a decision of his "own free will"? You can't make a statement like "own free will"=(solely of his own doing, a conscious decision he made on his own..with no outside influence either way) and apply it to one situation and not the other. By making that statement..it's implying it's solely on the kid.
Here's why. Because recruiting battles are hard. Winning one is an accomplishment. Losing one happens regularly.
If Wojo did his best, and the kid still wants to go elsewhere, I have trouble criticizing someone for that. I mean by all accounts Sam loves Marquette. His family loves Wojo. He has been a presence at his games regularly. If after all that, Joey decides to go to UW, it would be hard for me to blame that on Wojo. Can you state what he should have done differently?
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With Cam Johnson out of the picture, looks like we are out on almost every potential big impact grad transfer. Really, really disappointing as I still think we are one key addition away from a step up next year. Oh well...
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With Cam Johnson out of the picture, looks like we are out on almost every potential big impact grad transfer. Really, really disappointing as I still think we are one key addition away from a step up next year. Oh well...
Its hard to get in on those impact grad transfers unless there is a previous connection (as MU had with Lockett, Carlino and Reinhardt). There is a lot of competition for these guys
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With Cam Johnson out of the picture, looks like we are out on almost every potential big impact grad transfer. Really, really disappointing as I still think we are one key addition away from a step up next year. Oh well...
There are still several guys that don't have a firm list. MiKyle McIntosh hasn't listed any names and he would fit well.
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Its hard to get in on those impact grad transfers unless there is a previous connection (as MU had with Lockett, Carlino and Reinhardt). There is a lot of competition for these guys
This. Plus with a guy like Egor - can you really blame him for going to Florida? I mean, I am a die hard Marquette fan, and I'd probably rather spend a year in Florida than Milwaukee.....
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Here's why. Because recruiting battles are hard. Winning one is an accomplishment. Losing one happens regularly.
If Wojo did his best, and the kid still wants to go elsewhere, I have trouble criticizing someone for that. I mean by all accounts Sam loves Marquette. His family loves Wojo. He has been a presence at his games regularly. If after all that, Joey decides to go to UW, it would be hard for me to blame that on Wojo. Can you state what he should have done differently?
I agree - to a point. Every coach loses recruiting battles.
But every coach also wins some, and you can't possibly say that all 351 D1 coaches have "accomplishments" (the ones they win) and none by definition have "failures" (because recruiting is hard and they tried).
"Accomplishments" going after your secondary or tertiary (or worse) targets won't do a coach much good if his primary targets consistently get away. I usually say "meh" when we miss out on a guy. Not Joey H. He been our #1 target in that class forever, he's local and his brother is already at MU. Getting him could pay future dividends, losing him could result in future losses. By all accounts we're the heavy favorite - and losing recruiting battles under those circumstances are failures, plain and simple. The degree of blame that goes to the head coach (a lot, a little, almost none) is debatable - the fact that it's an important failure isn't.
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I agree - to a point. Every coach loses recruiting battles.
But every coach also wins some, and you can't possibly say that all 351 D1 coaches have "accomplishments" (the ones they win) and none by definition have "failures" (because recruiting is hard and they tried).
"Accomplishments" going after your secondary or tertiary (or worse) targets won't do a coach much good if his primary targets consistently get away. I usually say "meh" when we miss out on a guy. Not Joey H. He been our #1 target in that class forever, he's local and his brother is already at MU. Getting him could pay future dividends, losing him could result in future losses. By all accounts we're the heavy favorite - and losing recruiting battles under those circumstances are failures, plain and simple. The degree of blame that goes to the head coach (a lot, a little, almost none) is debatable - the fact that it's an important failure isn't.
Missing out on a kid who is being recruited by Virginia, Michigan State, and has Duke and others sniffing around isn't a failure. It'd be a disappointment, but not a failure.
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What if we me miss because the other people we've offered commit?
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I agree - to a point. Every coach loses recruiting battles.
But every coach also wins some, and you can't possibly say that all 351 D1 coaches have "accomplishments" (the ones they win) and none by definition have "failures" (because recruiting is hard and they tried).
"Accomplishments" going after your secondary or tertiary (or worse) targets won't do a coach much good if his primary targets consistently get away. I usually say "meh" when we miss out on a guy. Not Joey H. He been our #1 target in that class forever, he's local and his brother is already at MU. Getting him could pay future dividends, losing him could result in future losses. By all accounts we're the heavy favorite - and losing recruiting battles under those circumstances are failures, plain and simple. The degree of blame that goes to the head coach (a lot, a little, almost none) is debatable - the fact that it's an important failure isn't.
No it isn't a failure.
Ultimately what matters is if they win or lose. If they don't land Joey, that in of itself isn't a failure. If they don't land Joey, don't land a good back up recruit, and because of that they lose games, THAT is a failure.
But if they don't land Joey, land Race Thompson or someone else instead, and they go on to win games, then it is a disappointment that the coach worked to fix and ultimately succeeded.
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What if we me miss because the other people we've offered commit?
If someone else commits say Kahvon Moore for example..and Joey still wants to come..you make room. Part of a coaches responsibility is to assemble as much talent as possible.
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No it isn't a failure.
Ultimately what matters is if they win or lose. If they don't land Joey, that in of itself isn't a failure. If they don't land Joey, don't land a good back up recruit, and because of that they lose games, THAT is a failure.
But if they don't land Joey, land Race Thompson or someone else instead, and they go on to win games, then it is a disappointment that the coach worked to fix and ultimately succeeded.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Recruiting isn't about winning individual battles, it is about winning the war (basketball games). I don't care if Wojo strikes out on his top 10 recruits as long his 11th ends up winning basketball games for us.
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If someone else commits say Kahvon Moore for example..and Joey still wants to come..you make room. Part of a coaches responsibility is to assemble as much talent as possible.
Ah I see, so then what happens is making room alienates all the high school coaches in Detroit or Twin Cities then you come on here complaining how we can't get the best talent in those places when it's so close.
It's easy to be heartless and cut 18yr old with a small vision but looking to the future a bit it's not so simple.
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Ah I see, so then what happens is making room alienates all the high school coaches in Detroit or Twin Cities then you come on here complaining how we can't get the best talent in those places when it's so close.
It's easy to be heartless and cut 18yr old with a small vision but looking to the future a bit it's not so simple.
Eh, I agree that these are factors to consider.....but if Khavon Moore and Joey Hauser commit, I am ok with finding some room. I don't know who gets Pole-Axed but athletic scholarships are awarded to the best athletes. It is a bit heartless but it is the nature of college athletics. I would hope and expect that Wojo and co would help whatever pole-axee find a good landing spot at a new program
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Eh, I agree that these are factors to consider.....but if Khavon Moore and Joey Hauser commit, I am ok with finding some room. I don't know who gets Pole-Axed but athletic scholarships are awarded to the best athletes. It is a bit heartless but it is the nature of college athletics. I would hope and expect that Wojo and co would help whatever pole-axee find a good landing spot at a new program
Plus, these things tend to take care of themselves. I'd be blown away if everyone on the roster next year not named Rowsey (or a grad transfer, if we end up adding one) returned for 18-19. Its the way of college hoops these days.
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Missing out on Joey wouldn't be a failure, but it would be a disappointment. If he went to Duke or Kansas, I could stomach that. Losing him to a Wisconsin or Notre Dame would be more difficult.
No one recruit is make or break, but I do feel like that's one we really should win.
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I agree - to a point. Every coach loses recruiting battles.
But every coach also wins some, and you can't possibly say that all 351 D1 coaches have "accomplishments" (the ones they win) and none by definition have "failures" (because recruiting is hard and they tried).
"Accomplishments" going after your secondary or tertiary (or worse) targets won't do a coach much good if his primary targets consistently get away. I usually say "meh" when we miss out on a guy. Not Joey H. He been our #1 target in that class forever, he's local and his brother is already at MU. Getting him could pay future dividends, losing him could result in future losses. By all accounts we're the heavy favorite - and losing recruiting battles under those circumstances are failures, plain and simple. The degree of blame that goes to the head coach (a lot, a little, almost none) is debatable - the fact that it's an important failure isn't.
If Joey H were Joe Wolf I would be in more agreement with You. Losing out on Joe Wolf in many ways started our mini ice age.
Joey Hi is a real nice player that we would love to have and one we have a good inside track . However, I don't think it will result in future losses as you point out above. For example, losing out on Diamond Stone was not a harbinger of future recruiting woes. We have a deep pipeline of recruits and prospects.
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Losing out on Joe Wolf in many ways started our mini ice age.
There was a lot more going south with the program at that point than just losing out on Joe Wolf. It was a symptom than a cause.
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Missing out on Joey wouldn't be a failure, but it would be a disappointment. If he went to Duke or Kansas, I could stomach that. Losing him to a Wisconsin or Notre Dame would be more difficult.
No one recruit is make or break, but I do feel like that's one we really should win.
This is how I feel, good scooping today men.
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This is how I feel, good scooping today men.
Joey Hauser is a good player, but he is not explosive like Cain or even Elliott. He is a tad better than Sam was at the same age. I can see him being a Gordan
Hayward type player which is pretty good. He should have a bunch of good players around him, which will make him even better. MSU recruits much better players,
more one and done, so I am not sure how he fits there.
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Losing out on Joe Wolf in many ways started our mini ice age.
Maybe we would not of got him anyways, but we lost out on any chance of Joe Wolf when Raymonds retired. Wolf said he did not want to play for an inexperienced coach. The hiring of Majerus is what started our mini ice age. Majerus probably would of worked out in the long run, but when he quit after three years he totally threw the program into a dumpster.
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Gordon Hayward is a good comparison for Joey. I like Kyle Singler as well. Needs about 15 pounds of muscle.
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Joey Hauser is a good player, but he is not explosive like Cain or even Elliott. He is a tad better than Sam was at the same age. I can see him being a Gordan
Hayward type player which is pretty good. He should have a bunch of good players around him, which will make him even better. MSU recruits much better players,
more one and done, so I am not sure how he fits there.
Gordon Hayward was the 9th pick in the NBA draft following his sophomore season at Butler, where he led the Bulldogs to the NCAA championship game (a two point loss to Duke). He's a borderline star in the NBA (closest comp per Basketball Reference at this stage of his career is Danny Manning) and he's still getting better. I don't expect Cain or Elliot to be in Hayward's league. If Joey is, he'll be the best player here since JFB.
Big get or big loss.
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Are people getting worried Joey is leaning elsewhere?
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Are people getting worried Joey is leaning elsewhere?
It's Scoop, worrying is kind of our thing.
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Gordon Hayward was the 9th pick in the NBA draft following his sophomore season at Butler, where he led the Bulldogs to the NCAA championship game (a two point loss to Duke). He's a borderline star in the NBA (closest comp per Basketball Reference at this stage of his career is Danny Manning) and he's still getting better. I don't expect Cain or Elliot to be in Hayward's league. If Joey is, he'll be the best player here since JFB.
Big get or big loss.
I think BC meant Joey's play style is similar to Gordon Hayward. Not his actual talent level. If he is, than hot damn!
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Are people getting worried Joey is leaning elsewhere?
Scoop worries that a good recruit will end up elsewhere until he plays his first game in blue and gold. After that, Scoop worries that player will transfer or go pro until the first game of his senior year. After that, Scoop worries that player will wear the shorts of a different college team during a workout.
Scoop worries eternal
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Scoop worries that a good recruit will end up elsewhere until he plays his first game in blue and gold. After that, Scoop worries that player will transfer or go pro until the first game of his senior year. After that, Scoop worries that player will wear the shorts of a different college team during a workout.
Scoop worries eternal
Ha ya I get that.
So no actual news making people get irrational?
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Jon RothsteinVerified account @JonRothstein 19m19 minutes ago
Nebraska transfer Ed Morrow tells me he will visit Xavier on May 12th and 13th.
Did Morrow drop one of his reported visits?? or is one unofficial?? This would give him 4..MU, Xavier, Pitt, Iowa St.
I was hoping MU could get a commitment this weekend..and maybe still could. Lot going for them...close to Chicago(if that matters to him), gets his first year in new arena, probably knows Jabari Parker(I think they were teammates for a year in HS).
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I was hoping MU could get a commitment this weekend..and maybe still could. Lot going for them...close to Chicago(if that matters to him), gets his first year in new arena, probably knows Jabari Parker(I think they were teammates for a year in HS).
Maybe he can come in early and go out on the town with his old high school buddy. Maybe catch a basketball game...guessing Parker could get decent seats, and under the circumstance I don't think there'd be any recruiting violations.
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Maybe he can come in early and go out on the town with his old high school buddy. Maybe catch a basketball game...guessing Parker could get decent seats, and under the circumstance I don't think there'd be any recruiting violations.
Unless Jabari is a donor to MU basketball, there would be no violation.
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Jon RothsteinVerified account @JonRothstein 19m19 minutes ago
Nebraska transfer Ed Morrow tells me he will visit Xavier on May 12th and 13th.
Did Morrow drop one of his reported visits?? or is one unofficial?? This would give him 4..MU, Xavier, Pitt, Iowa St.
I was hoping MU could get a commitment this weekend..and maybe still could. Lot going for them...close to Chicago(if that matters to him), gets his first year in new arena, probably knows Jabari Parker(I think they were teammates for a year in HS).
Morrow retweeted that the Johnnies were interested in him. I would not be surprised if he did his fifth official there.
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I think BC meant Joey's play style is similar to Gordon Hayward. Not his actual talent level. If he is, than hot damn!
No, he meant white like him. Wannabe scouting experts always have to compare white players to other white players.
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No, he meant white like him. Wannabe scouting experts always have to compare white players to other white players.
True.....but that doesn't necessarily mean its a bad comparison
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True.....but that doesn't necessarily mean its a bad comparison
In this case I think it's a pretty terrible comparison. Gordon Hayward was a string bean all through college who rarely went to the post, drove with the ball quite a bit, and was pretty athletic. He was pretty much a tall 2 guard, and continues to be. Joey is much more Henry Ellenson, who I wouldn't say is anything remotely like Gordon Hayward. Slower footed, not as good of a jumper, not as likely to catch the ball on the perimeter and just break his man down with the dribble all the way to the basket, and much more likely to head to the post and make some nice post moves or nice passes out of the post. Joey is built a ton bigger than Hayward was and is much more a 4 with the ability to cause matchup problems because he has the skills to step out, but that's not his biggest strength like it was Hayward's.
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Henry is a bad comparison too. HE is a 6-10 245 PF who thought he was Dirk Nowitzki when he should have been almost exclusively in the post.
Joey Hauser is more like Kyle Singler. A high IQ, jack of all trades stretch 4.
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Henry should not have been used "almost exclusively" in the post. One can argue that he shouldn't have shot so many threes, but he had a great mid range game. He was very effective playing with a post player like Luke in the game.
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Henry should not have been used "almost exclusively" in the post. One can argue that he shouldn't have shot so many threes, but he had a great mid range game. He was very effective playing with a post player like Luke in the game.
I agree with this -- less threes and more high post in my opinion. The high-low with Luke was great when they ran it -- just wish they had done it much more often.
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Henry is a bad comparison too. HE is a 6-10 245 PF who thought he was Dirk Nowitzki when he should have been almost exclusively in the post.
Joey Hauser is more like Kyle Singler. A high IQ, jack of all trades stretch 4.
I don't remember enough about Singler so maybe, but I thought he was more athletic and more perimeter oriented. But Hank and Joey have very similar skillsets and while Hank is taller, their build and athleticism are pretty similar. Joey and Hank are both at their best when they are catching the ball in the mid post. If they have a smaller guy they can back him down, if they have a bigger guy they can face up, and if they get doubled they can pass out of it. They also have the skill to step out and hit the jumper and to rebound on defense and start the break themselves.
In my mind Hank and Joey are at their best as bigs who have the ability to step out. Sometimes Hank got away from what he was best at. Hayward was a wing who was tall. I thought I remembered Singler being more of a wing who was tall as well, but I could be wrong.
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I don't remember enough about Singler so maybe, but I thought he was more athletic and more perimeter oriented. But Hank and Joey have very similar skillsets and while Hank is taller, their build and athleticism are pretty similar. Joey and Hank are both at their best when they are catching the ball in the mid post. If they have a smaller guy they can back him down, if they have a bigger guy they can face up, and if they get doubled they can pass out of it. They also have the skill to step out and hit the jumper and to rebound on defense and start the break themselves.
In my mind Hank and Joey are at their best as bigs who have the ability to step out. Sometimes Hank got away from what he was best at. Hayward was a wing who was tall. I thought I remembered Singler being more of a wing who was tall as well, but I could be wrong.
Joey is a much better shooter than Henry. Joey is a 4/3, while Henry was a post at his point in career at MU. Joey is more versatile than Henry, though Henry's height gives him an edge too. Neither one is an elite level athlete. Skilled with size, yes. In the end, the Singler comparison is a good one though Joey appears to be built thicker.
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I've seen Joey play several times and I agree with this. He'll do whatever it takes to win, but he can also take over a game. I know it's just high school and it's all relative, but his upside is huge.
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No, he meant white like him. Wannabe scouting experts always have to compare white players to other white players.
OK, who do you want me to compare him to? If you have a better choice then tell me, black or white. Hayward could put the ball on the floor and dribble, Sam
had trouble doing that. Joey can, shoots it much better than Ellenson, but Ellenson was bigger, slower of foot. Joey has skills like Hayward, did not say he was
going to be as good as him. If so, it would be a good get for whomever signs him.
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Henry should not have been used "almost exclusively" in the post. One can argue that he shouldn't have shot so many threes, but he had a great mid range game. He was very effective playing with a post player like Luke in the game.
Agreed completely. He was at his best in the 10-18 foot range. His midrange game was the best I've seen at Marquette in recent memory.
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Ok, "almost exclusively in the post" was an over correction on my part. I'll agree with the view that Henry was good midrange and in, with the ability to occasionally shoot the open 3.
The big difference between Henry and Joey: Henry had more power to his game while Joey is more finesse and a better shooter.
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The big difference between Henry and Joey: Henry had more power to his game while Joey is more finesse and a better shooter.
Henry is also 3 inches taller.
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Henry is also 3 inches taller.
And 35 pounds heavier. Thus the additional power.
After Joey adds 15-20 pounds, his size will be same as Singler.
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In this case I think it's a pretty terrible comparison. Gordon Hayward was a string bean all through college who rarely went to the post, drove with the ball quite a bit, and was pretty athletic. He was pretty much a tall 2 guard, and continues to be. Joey is much more Henry Ellenson, who I wouldn't say is anything remotely like Gordon Hayward. Slower footed, not as good of a jumper, not as likely to catch the ball on the perimeter and just break his man down with the dribble all the way to the basket, and much more likely to head to the post and make some nice post moves or nice passes out of the post. Joey is built a ton bigger than Hayward was and is much more a 4 with the ability to cause matchup problems because he has the skills to step out, but that's not his biggest strength like it was Hayward's.
Joey is listed at 6-8 210 lbs. Gordon Hayward in college was listed at 6-9 208 lbs. I'm not sure you can call one a string bean and claim the other is so radically different. Joey is younger and has yet to hit a college level strength program so he should end up with a thicker frame.
But beyond that, I actually agree. Hayward was more perimeter oriented than Joey. I do think the comparisons to Hank are funny though. Not because I don't agree, but because I remember a lot of people here saying that Henry was so skilled that he could play the two or three if he wanted to. Some even claiming that he would be better at those positions than the 4/5. I also remember Hank being compared to Gordon Hayward and Danny Manning in high school. Once he got to college, those comparisons went away.
I think the lesson is that just because a post player has the speed and skill to play on the wing against high school competition doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to college.
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Joey is listed at 6-8 210 lbs. Gordon Hayward in college was listed at 6-9 208 lbs. I'm not sure you can call one a string bean and claim the other is so radically different. Joey is younger and has yet to hit a college level strength program so he should end up with a thicker frame.
But beyond that, I actually agree. Hayward was more perimeter oriented than Joey. I do think the comparisons to Hank are funny though. Not because I don't agree, but because I remember a lot of people here saying that Henry was so skilled that he could play the two or three if he wanted to. Some even claiming that he would be better at those positions than the 4/5. I also remember Hank being compared to Gordon Hayward and Danny Manning in high school. Once he got to college, those comparisons went away.
I think the lesson is that just because a post player has the speed and skill to play on the wing against high school competition doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to college.
The difference being one was 16 years old when those measurements were taken and the other was 20 years old. I think Joey is built much bigger than Hayward, but Hayward as a pro has put on a lot of muscle. I do think Joey *can* play the wing, but I don't think it's where he'll be at his best. At any rate, I think Joey (and Hank) are matchup nightmares. Big and strong enough to play in the post but skilled enough to step out to the perimeter.
Let's hope we're seeing who Joey compared to in college right in front of our eyes in the House that Howard and the Hausers (okay, and Giannis and Thon) Built.
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Henry is a bad comparison too. HE is a 6-10 245 PF who thought he was Dirk Nowitzki when he should have been almost exclusively in the post.
Joey Hauser is more like Kyle Singler. A high IQ, jack of all trades stretch 4.
I agree with this analysis.
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Joey is listed at 6-8 210 lbs. Gordon Hayward in college was listed at 6-9 208 lbs. I'm not sure you can call one a string bean and claim the other is so radically different. Joey is younger and has yet to hit a college level strength program so he should end up with a thicker frame.
But beyond that, I actually agree. Hayward was more perimeter oriented than Joey. I do think the comparisons to Hank are funny though. Not because I don't agree, but because I remember a lot of people here saying that Henry was so skilled that he could play the two or three if he wanted to. Some even claiming that he would be better at those positions than the 4/5. I also remember Hank being compared to Gordon Hayward and Danny Manning in high school. Once he got to college, those comparisons went away.
I think the lesson is that just because a post player has the speed and skill to play on the wing against high school competition doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to college.
Joey has a much better neck than Hayward. Means he will never be a beanpole.
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Joey is a much better shooter than Henry. Joey is a 4/3, while Henry was a post at his point in career at MU. Joey is more versatile than Henry, though Henry's height gives him an edge too. Neither one is an elite level athlete. Skilled with size, yes. In the end, the Singler comparison is a good one though Joey appears to be built thicker.
Disagree
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Disagree
Jay Bee - could you be specific? Interested in how you see JH in college.
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https://painttouches.com/2017/03/24/ncaa-free-agent-tracker-march-24th-edition/
Tracker updated. Lots of names off the board and a few new names onto the board.
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Hey Jay Bee, Zach Lofton is from your nick of the woods....and played for your third favorite team! Would you recommend him?
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Hey Jay Bee, Zach Lofton is from your nick of the woods....and played for your third favorite team! Would you recommend him?
I'd recommend Zach to a lot of schools, but not MU in 2017-18. SG, scorer. I feel like I've been watching him for a decade... for a reason. I think he'll turn 25 about a week into the season.
He's been at Illinois St., Minnesota (kicked off team), and Texas Southern...
The 3-ball hasn't gone down for him in college, but the kid can score. With him, you see a ton of skill.. hasn't all come together... but he could be a nice piece for a team this year... but for MU.. not sure of the dynamics there... high-usage, high shots guy.
Have had some notes on Zach over the college years...
http://latenighthoops.com/?s=zach+lofton#.WQibKxMrLIU
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MU had interest, but we won't be able to pursue this time. Both Big East and Transfer news...
@EvanDaniels: Akoy Agau will graduate and transfer from Georgetown, per a source. Expected to have 2 years of eligibility. Averaged 4.5 PPG & 4.3 RPG.
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MU had interest, but we won't be able to pursue this time. Both Big East and Transfer news...
@EvanDaniels: Akoy Agau will graduate and transfer from Georgetown, per a source. Expected to have 2 years of eligibility. Averaged 4.5 PPG & 4.3 RPG.
Not too bold of a statement: Depaul will finish ahead of Georgetown next season.
They have solid starting bigs in Derrickson and Govan but that's it.Their starting guards at this point are going to be Mulmore, Mosley, and Cambpell....three guys who scored 4 points or less a game last season. Their backup post player is going 6-7 215 lb 3 star freshman Antwan Walker. Hoya fans better hope that JT3 was just holding players back or next year is going to be brutal for them. Like, worse than Wojo's first year was for us.
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Agreed, Georgetown looks awful, though they are still in the grad transfer market, I believe Alstork is set to visit.
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Couple of updates for the Tracker...Jeff Beverly is on a visit to Iowa State today, and WILL commit(provided Iowa St will accept his commit). Brase will visit Iowa St on Monday.
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Matt Ryan went to Vanderbilt.
http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/vanderbilt/2017/04/25/vanderbilt-basketball-lands-notre-dame-transfer-matt-ryan/100911576/
http://vanderbilt.247sports.com/Article/Vanderbilt-hosts-Notre-Dame-transfer-Matt-Ryan--52231842
This was a case of where there was a prior relationship with Ryan from the original recruitment.
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Matt Ryan went to Vanderbilt.
This was a case of where there was a prior relationship with Ryan from the original recruitment.
Oh.. the relationship where none of the coaches are there any longer? ::)
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Oh.. the relationship where none of the coaches are there any longer? ::)
One of the new assistants recruited him at a prior school.
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One of the new assistants recruited him at a prior school.
Which one? Drew brought his assistants from Valpo with him except for one....his brother in law who wasn't a coach before this gig. Valpo didn't recruit Matt Ryan.
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Which one? Drew brought his assistants from Valpo with him except for one....his brother in law who wasn't a coach before this gig. Valpo didn't recruit Matt Ryan.
This article describes the prior relationship with a Andy and how it evolved.
http://vanderbilt.247sports.com/Article/Vanderbilt-hosts-Notre-Dame-transfer-Matt-Ryan--52231842
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This article describes the prior relationship with a Andy and how it evolved.
http://vanderbilt.247sports.com/Article/Vanderbilt-hosts-Notre-Dame-transfer-Matt-Ryan--52231842
Please show me where it says one of the current coaches at Vandy recruited Matt Ryan previously. The only thing I found was this.
Yanni Hufnagel targeted Ryan while he worked at Harvard and began to target the shooter for the Commodores immediately after being hired as the head recruiting assistant by Kevin Stallings in the spring of 2013, and despite Ryan missing much of his junior season due to double-hip surgery.
Vanderbilt was a steady contender for his services for more than a year until Hufnagel departed from the program for Cal in May of 2014.
Unless I'm missing something, there was no previous relationship with an assistant coach that brought Ryan to Vanderbilt.
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Please show me where it says one of the current coaches at Vandy recruited Matt Ryan previously. The only thing I found was this.
Unless I'm missing something, there was no previous relationship with an assistant coach that brought Ryan to Vanderbilt.
There was a prior relationship with Vanderbilt . Also your a very young punk who thinks he knows it all.
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There was a prior relationship with Vanderbilt . Also your a very young punk who thinks he knows it all.
Well mostly because he is usually right. And you often are not.
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There was a prior relationship with Vanderbilt . Also your you're a very young punk who thinks he knows it all.
I don't know it all but I know grade school English.
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Well mostly because he is usually right. And you often are not.
Money.
I don't know it all but I know grade school English.
Interest on Sultan's money.
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There was a prior relationship with Vanderbilt . Also your a very young punk who thinks he knows it all.
You really like Scoop Takes, don't you?
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There was a prior relationship with Vanderbilt . Also your a very young punk who thinks he knows it all.
That would have been fine if that's what you said. But you said:
One of the new assistants recruited him at a prior school.
Don't make things up. When Jay Bee called you out you could have just said "Oops my bad" or "I meant his familiarity with the school helped the second time around." Instead you made up something to try and save face. Even as a very young punk I know that's a bad idea.
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Instead you made up something.
Surely this isn't news to anyone re MUFINY's posts?
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So after a long song and dance, Cam Johnson ends up at North Carolina....which is awkwardly also part of the same conference as Pitt. The ACC allows inter-conference grad transfers, but Pitt restricted Johnson from transferring to any ACC schools, meaning Cam will have to sit out a year. UNC is of course challenging this. Media has already taken Cam's side and is calling for Pitt to drop the restriction. Will be curious to see how this plays out. I am usually all for giving more powers to the students but I also don't think restricting an inter-conference transfer is unreasonable. Can see both sides on this one.
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I think Cam Johnson is the biggest story of the year in college basketball. This could have wide ranging ramifications if it goes to court, including an ending on transfer restrictions as well as the year in residence rule.
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I think Cam Johnson is the biggest story of the year in college basketball. This could have wide ranging ramifications if it goes to court, including an ending on transfer restrictions as well as the year in residence rule.
Lots to chew on. Personally I'm opposed to even more free agency. Wonder how this might work? Colleges sign players for 4 years but have the right to release a player after any year without ANY restrictions. So if they want to keep somebody, they do. If not, he goes anywhere he wants.
Now let's not all complain that a 4 year contract is some rights violation. Kid can always leave school, he just can't play scholarship ball anywhere else. ARodg can't leave the Packers either.
One thing my strategy would eliminate is the kid moving up from mid to high major. The era of the Rowsey transfer would be over. Similarly, you wouldn't see a 9th man transferring out for more playing time if his original coach still wanted him around and was willing to honor the original scholarship commitment. I'm not sure that would be so bad either. It would force kids to really think through their opportunities and choose for the long term.
Anyway, interesting mental exercise.
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So after a long song and dance, Cam Johnson ends up at North Carolina....which is awkwardly also part of the same conference as Pitt. The ACC allows inter-conference grad transfers, but Pitt restricted Johnson from transferring to any ACC schools, meaning Cam will have to sit out a year. UNC is of course challenging this. Media has already taken Cam's side and is calling for Pitt to drop the restriction. Will be curious to see how this plays out. I am usually all for giving more powers to the students but I also don't think restricting an inter-conference transfer is unreasonable. Can see both sides on this one.
It's a gray area whether or not Pitt can actually put any restrictions on a grad transfer. And since ACC rules specifically allow for intra-conference grad transfers, he just may have the right to play at UNC.
IMO, schools should not have the ability to limit where kids can transfer to. If a conference wants to limit intra-conference transfers, that's their decision.
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Lots to chew on. Personally I'm opposed to even more free agency. Wonder how this might work? Colleges sign players for 4 years but have the right to release a player after any year without ANY restrictions. So if they want to keep somebody, they do. If not, he goes anywhere he wants.
Now let's not all complain that a 4 year contract is some rights violation. Kid can always leave school, he just can't play scholarship ball anywhere else. ARodg can't leave the Packers either.
One thing my strategy would eliminate is the kid moving up from mid to high major. The era of the Rowsey transfer would be over. Similarly, you wouldn't see a 9th man transferring out for more playing time if his original coach still wanted him around and was willing to honor the original scholarship commitment. I'm not sure that would be so bad either. It would force kids to really think through their opportunities and choose for the long term.
Anyway, interesting mental exercise.
I don't like this at all because you seem to start with the assumption that transfers are inherently bad. Why shouldn't a guy like Rowsey try to play at a higher level? Why shouldn't a guy like Cohen get a chance for more playing time at a lower level? People use words like "epidemic" to describe the transfer situation, but IMO most transfers are fine. Marquette has certainly benefited from them.
And finally, why should it be up to the coach, for whatever reason he decides is legitimate, decline a transfer anywhere?
And your parallels to Rodgers aren't really good. Rodgers is a member of a union that collectively bargained a labor agreement that dictates the operating rules agreed upon by both parties. That isn't the case here.
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It's a gray area whether or not Pitt can actually put any restrictions on a grad transfer. And since ACC rules specifically allow for intra-conference grad transfers, he just may have the right to play at UNC.
IMO, schools should not have the ability to limit where kids can transfer to. If a conference wants to limit intra-conference transfers, that's their decision.
Having read the Bylaws (specifically 14.6.1 and its reference back to 14.5.5.2.10 [and (d) in particular), it doesn't appear to be a gray area. Pittsburgh may object to allowing Cam to not being required to sit out a year in residence.
He's free to transfer wherever he likes. They're just not OK with him not needing to sit out a year in residence, which appears clearly to be their option per the Bylaws.
Lots of whiny voices stating, "but he had a 3.9 GPA!" Come on, folks. Have some principles. Whether his GPA is 3.0 or 3.9 has nothing to do with this.
Pitt is playing by the rules. I hope they continue to do so, but it'll be difficult from a PR perspective.
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I don't like this at all because you seem to start with the assumption that transfers are inherently bad. Why shouldn't a guy like Rowsey try to play at a higher level? Why shouldn't a guy like Cohen get a chance for more playing time at a lower level? People use words like "epidemic" to describe the transfer situation, but IMO most transfers are fine. Marquette has certainly benefited from them.
And finally, why should it be up to the coach, for whatever reason he decides is legitimate, decline a transfer anywhere?
And your parallels to Rodgers aren't really good. Rodgers is a member of a union that collectively bargained a labor agreement that dictates the operating rules agreed upon by both parties. That isn't the case here.
I guess we simply disagree which is fine. By and large, I dislike 'easy' transfers. But I also think that committing to a player for the 4 full years is appropriate.
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I guess we simply disagree which is fine. By and large, I dislike 'easy' transfers.
Why?
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Having read the Bylaws (specifically 14.6.1 and its reference back to 14.5.5.2.10 [and (d) in particular), it doesn't appear to be a gray area. Pittsburgh may object to allowing Cam to not being required to sit out a year in residence.
He's free to transfer wherever he likes. They're just not OK with him not needing to sit out a year in residence, which appears clearly to be their option per the Bylaws.
Lots of whiny voices stating, "but he had a 3.9 GPA!" Come on, folks. Have some principles. Whether his GPA is 3.0 or 3.9 has nothing to do with this.
Pitt is playing by the rules. I hope they continue to do so, but it'll be difficult from a PR perspective.
Looks like you are correct.
Bad rule. Students should not have to obtain permission to transfer.
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Looks like you are correct.
Bad rule. Students should not have to obtain permission to transfer.
He's free to transfer. He just needs the OK from Pitt to get to skip out on the normal one-year in residence requirement.
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Why?
Because I don't. Just an opinion brother. Just like yours. ;D
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He's free to transfer. He just needs the OK from Pitt to get to skip out on the normal one-year in residence requirement.
Right. Bad rule. He shouldn't need permission from the previous school.
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Right. Bad rule. He shouldn't need permission from the previous school.
I disagree. I'd lean toward the bad rule being that there is an exception that allows certain SA's to not sit a year in residence.
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I could see this having two implications. First, the end of transfer destination restrictions. Because these are effectively unpaid students, why should it matter what school they want to transfer to? I understand why the NCAA and leagues allow the restriction, but in court I don't think that will hold up.
Second, the end of the year in residence, not just for grad transfers, but for all student athletes. Because what logical reason does the NCAA have for that requirement when there's no year in residence required for freshmen, JUCOs, or grad transfers?
This is a really dumb hill for Pitt to die on and could massively shift the transfer landscape if it ends up in court.
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And I like any rule that gives the indentured servant more freedom at the expense of the plantation owners.
I wouldn't mind if the sit-out-a-year rule ceased to exist. I know that would inconvenienced some people, but this is 'Merica ... land of the free!
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I could see this having two implications. First, the end of transfer destination restrictions. Because these are effectively unpaid students, why should it matter what school they want to transfer to? I understand why the NCAA and leagues allow the restriction, but in court I don't think that will hold up.
Second, the end of the year in residence, not just for grad transfers, but for all student athletes. Because what logical reason does the NCAA have for that requirement when there's no year in residence required for freshmen, JUCOs, or grad transfers?
This is a really dumb hill for Pitt to die on and could massively shift the transfer landscape if it ends up in court.
Unpaid? Sorry, but I worked 2 jobs to pay for my MU education. I would have loved to have free scholarship and R&B while I got to play sports.
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I could see this having two implications. First, the end of transfer destination restrictions. Because these are effectively unpaid students, why should it matter what school they want to transfer to? I understand why the NCAA and leagues allow the restriction, but in court I don't think that will hold up.
Second, the end of the year in residence, not just for grad transfers, but for all student athletes. Because what logical reason does the NCAA have for that requirement when there's no year in residence required for freshmen, JUCOs, or grad transfers?
This is a really dumb hill for Pitt to die on and could massively shift the transfer landscape if it ends up in court.
Three) The end of the grad transfer exception. Make them sit a year in residence and add a year to their clock.
Cam Johnson comes off as spoiled and entitled. Truth is there are rules in life and, no they aren't always fair. If Cam over plays his hand, he might hurt the rest of the players in the long run.
Personally, I favor revenue sport athletes getting a portion of those revenues, i.e., increasing stipends.
However, there are still rules. Same as employers can put no compete clauses in contracts, schools can limit player movement. I don't think Pitt is being unreasonable. Cam Johnson is presented two choices: Go to UNC (or another ACC school) and sit out a year or go anywhere else and be immediately eligible. Suing because "it's just not fair" is weak and ill-conceived in my opinion. If there was a violation of the equal protection clause, then it would be a different story. But that is not the case here.
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Three) The end of the grad transfer exception. Make them sit a year in residence and add a year to their clock.
Cam Johnson comes off as spoiled and entitled. Truth is there are rules in life and, no they aren't always fair. If Cam over plays his hand, he might hurt the rest of the players in the long run.
Personally, I favor revenue sport athletes getting a portion of those revenues, i.e., increasing stipends.
However, there are still rules. Same as employers can put no compete clauses in contracts, schools can limit player movement. I don't think Pitt is being unreasonable. Cam Johnson is presented two choices: Go to UNC (or another ACC school) and sit out a year or go anywhere else and be immediately eligible. Suing because "it's just not fair" is weak and ill-conceived in my opinion. If there was a violation of the equal protection clause, then it would be a different story. But that is not the case here.
"Rules are rules" people will sympathize with Pitt.
"Dumb rules are dumb" people will sympathize with Cam.
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Unpaid? Sorry, but I worked 2 jobs to pay for my MU education. I would have loved to have free scholarship and R&B while I got to play sports.
False equivalency. They don't get paychecks.
Suing because "it's just not fair" is weak and ill-conceived in my opinion. If there was a violation of the equal protection clause, then it would be a different story. But that is not the case here.
That's not why they'd be suing. They'd be suing because Johnson is being discriminated against because of the sport he plays. If he were a track athlete, he wouldn't have to sit out, but because he plays basketball he does? Pitt needs to drop this because the courts would destroy them. It's laughable to think grad transfers would be further restricted.
I get the tradition that we think transfers will stay status quo, but that's just unrealistic. At some point someone will push rules that don't really make legal sense.
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"Rules are rules" people will sympathize with Pitt.
"Dumb rules are dumb" people will sympathize with Cam.
Anyone who has a modicum of respect for/belief in the rule of law believes that "rules are rules". If they think a particular rule is "dumb" they advocate to change it.
What you're saying - "If I think a rule is dumb that makes it so" - is great if anarchy is your thing.
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"Rules are rules" people will sympathize with Pitt.
"Dumb rules are dumb" people will sympathize with Cam.
I'm usually in the dumb rules are dumb camp (still follow them but try to change them as Lenny suggested). But I personally don't think a school restricting inter-conference transfers is dumb. They restricted less than 4% of his Division 1 options. He has ample opportunity to play and study at literally hundreds of universities.
I am a fan of getting rid of the year in residence requirement, but I would still support universities' ability to restrict (within reason) where a player can transfer to.
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Anyone who has a modicum of respect for/belief in the rule of law believes that "rules are rules". If they think a particular rule is "dumb" they advocate to change it.
What you're saying - "If I think a rule is dumb that makes it so" - is great if anarchy is your thing.
A little Henry David Thoreau mindset is good for a free society.
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They restricted less than 4% of his Division 1 options. He has ample opportunity to play and study at literally hundreds of universities.
If a player of CJs caliber is transferring to a blue blood school such as defending natl champ UNC, he is realistically transferring to maybe 4-6 schools. If his final five include the likes of Duke and UNC, to restrict him access at those schools would be restricting 40% of his realistic choices.
You are correct in that he could attend Grambling St. or Elon or Wright St. and a hundreds of other low to mid majors which make up a large portion of the 96% of schools he could play for, but I'm guessing he won't.
*I do not know if CJ even has a final five list, and if he did, which schools were even on the list.
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Anyone who has a modicum of respect for/belief in the rule of law believes that "rules are rules". If they think a particular rule is "dumb" they advocate to change it.
What you're saying - "If I think a rule is dumb that makes it so" - is great if anarchy is your thing.
Wow, you sound like an old guy, Lennie :o
There is a huge difference between rules and laws.
"If I think a rule is dumb that makes it so" may not be the proper way to look at it, but is probably generally true. Most rules are made just for the convenience of the rule maker.
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If a player of CJs caliber is transferring to a blue blood school such as defending natl champ UNC, he is realistically transferring to maybe 4-6 schools. If his final five include the likes of Duke and UNC, to restrict him access at those schools would be restricting 40% of his realistic choices.
You are correct in that he could attend Grambling St. or Elon or Wright St. and a hundreds of other low to mid majors which make up a large portion of the 96% of schools he could play for, but I'm guessing he won't.
*I do not know if CJ even has a final five list, and if he did, which schools were even on the list.
I don't think 4-6 schools is accurate. There have been many transfers at his level who have gone to a variety of non-blue blooded schools. More importantly, I don't care about his ability to play for a blue blooded school. I just care if he has the ability to play basketball and study. He has literally 100s of options. Just because he doesn't like most of them doesn't mean he doesn't have those options.
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I'm usually in the dumb rules are dumb camp (still follow them but try to change them as Lenny suggested). But I personally don't think a school restricting inter-conference transfers is dumb. They restricted less than 4% of his Division 1 options. He has ample opportunity to play and study at literally hundreds of universities.
I am a fan of getting rid of the year in residence requirement, but I would still support universities' ability to restrict (within reason) where a player can transfer to.
I'm in favor of the ability to restrain in conference transfers. I just don't see any way it would hold up in court. Maybe if they try to argue it like a no-compete clause.
Pitt should just let him go, because the long term ramifications of this could change everything. NCAA member institutions do not want this argued in court.
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He had more than 6 schools in his final list? If he did, then it's inaccurate--as I said I don't follow the kid and don't know.
The kid wants to play at a top 1-2% bball school. He chose UNC. He didn't chose a non-blue blood like others have. He chose UNC.
He may get his wish he may not, but Grambling St. maybe technically an option, but it's not an option for a 1%.
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Wow, you sound like an old guy, Lennie :o
There is a huge difference between rules and laws.
"If I think a rule is dumb that makes it so" may not be the proper way to look at it, but is probably generally true. Most rules are made just for the convenience of the rule maker.
Older than dirt, Brandie ;D
Rules and laws can be very different or synonymous. In this case they're the latter. Schools voluntarily join the NCAA and freely choose their conference affiliation. Don't like the rules/laws that your own organization enacts? Try to win enough hearts and minds to change them. If you fail, and the majority decides that you're the dumb one, live with it or go elsewhere.
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I don't think 4-6 schools is accurate. There have been many transfers at his level who have gone to a variety of non-blue blooded schools. More importantly, I don't care about his ability to play for a blue blooded school. I just care if he has the ability to play basketball and study. He has literally 100s of options. Just because he doesn't like most of them doesn't mean he doesn't have those options.
He picked North Carolina who should be (will not) penalized for fake classes.
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He had more than 6 schools in his final list? If he did, then it's inaccurate--as I said I don't follow the kid and don't know.
The kid wants to play at a top 1-2% bball school. He chose UNC. He didn't chose a non-blue blood like others have. He chose UNC.
He may get his wish he may not, but Grambling St. maybe technically an option, but it's not an option for a 1%.
That's great. I personally don't care if he wants to play in the top 1% of schools. I just care that he has a reasonable amount options to play and study somewhere. In this case, he has literally hundreds.
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I'm in favor of the ability to restrain in conference transfers. I just don't see any way it would hold up in court. Maybe if they try to argue it like a no-compete clause.
Pretty hard to argue that when the conference specifically allows it.
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Pretty hard to argue that when the conference specifically allows it.
I'm pretty sure they allow it because the rule wasnt updated after grad transfers became a thing and no one tried to use it until last year.
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I'm pretty sure they allow it because the rule wasnt updated after grad transfers became a thing and no one tried to use it until last year.
It was updated in 2006 to specifically craft out an exemption for graduate transfers intra-conference.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/acc/genrel/auto_pdf/ACCEligibilityRules.pdf
a. Exception. A student-athlete who receives a baccalaureate degree at one
member institution and who has been admitted into a degree program at another
member institution may transfer to another member institution without being
subject to the intra-conference transfer rule. NCAA transfer regulations would
apply. (Revised: February 2006)
"The intra-conference transfer rule" referenced is one that requires a two semester in residence.
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I stand corrected.
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Finally, one kind of student-athlete - the great student, the hard worker who is able to be a full-time basketball player AND get his degree in 3 years - has an advantage over the institution.
And the institution responds by doing everything in its power to restrict the student.
Just about all of these coaches and ADs and university presidents would love to get rid of the graduate transfer rule. Which is a strong reason why I love the rule - because it pisses off the power.
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Well, Pitt granted the release, and Johnson can play at UNC next season (unless UNC gets the death penalty - ha!).
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19582818/pittsburgh-panthers-clears-cameron-johnson-transfer-north-carolina-tar-heels
The article quotes Johnson's father:
"It's been a frustrating couple of months. But I'm a true believer in generally people end up doing the right things more times than not, especially by a young man who has given the university everything he could over the past three years. So I was prayerful that Pitt would do the right thing and allow him to pursue his dreams."
Chalk up another victory to prayer! It's been a busy June for God. The Johnsons are very lucky she or he made the time for this important situation.
Snark aside, Pitt realized it really had little to gain from sticking to its no-UNC-for-you stance. A courtroom defense would have been expensive and quite possibly unsuccessful. The kid gave the school 3 great years, stuck around through a coaching change, boosted the team GPA, and graduated with honors a year ahead of schedule. The decent thing to do was to let him control his own destiny. I'm glad Pitt's leaders decided to be decent - or at least be both practical and financially wise.
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I think Pitt is choosing what is in their best interest, not to "do the right thing." A costly legal battle is more harmful than the results of 2 or 3 basketball games.
Congrats to Cam Johnson. He got what he wanted. Unfortunately, this further exacerbates what I feel is a real problem in our society: Don't like the rules, sue to get your way.
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The poor kids, oh the poor kids! It's all so unfair!
The benefits & power they have is far more significant than most believe
Go Pitt, massacre UNC
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The poor kids, oh the poor kids! It's all so unfair!
The poor institutions, oh the poor institutions! The put-upon university presidents and athletic directors and, especially, coaches! It's all so unfair!
There ... is that better?
I mean, Kevin Stallings just can't catch a break - as long as one doesn't consider it a break that a guy who has accomplished nothing as a college coach landed an eight-figure contract.
Screw the kids! They get everything their way!!!!
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Probably not anything Marquette related, but its a slow news period so figured I'd share.
After nearly a month of the grad transfer market being comatose, two impact grad transfers made themselves available today.
Randy Onwuasor, a former Texas Tech Red Raider, averaged 23.6 points, 6.6 rebounds, 3.2 assists, and 1.5 steals a game for lowly Southern Utah last season. Led the Thunderbirds in all those stats too. Had originally declared for the draft but pulled out before the deadline. No idea why he's leaving now.
Jack Whitman was the starting center for a solid low major in William and Mary. He managed 10.1 points and 5.4 rebounds a game while shooting 66% from the floor. He also has an epic porn stache. He originally grad transferred to Kansas which I thought was a reach for him. Don't know why but he's suddenly announced that he won't be going to Kansas and is looking for a new program. My guess is he too realized that Kansas was a reach.
I doubt Marquette gets involved with either, it was just interesting to see two impact grad transfers pop up on the same day this late in the game.