MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: GGGG on March 11, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
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Their top rated recruit, Tremont Waters, just asked for his release.
http://sportzedge.com/2017/03/11/report-tremont-waters-requests-release-from-georgetown/
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JTIII needs to go
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Oh boy, that's really bad for them. Trouble brewing....
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And bad for the conference- helluva player. I guess the only good would be if this triggers G'Town to make the coaching move now with a coach who turns out to be the right move.
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Tremont 2 Marquette.
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http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/recruiting/story/1762175-waters-asks-for-release
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http://www.crimsonquarry.com/2017/3/11/14895994/indiana-basketball-recruiting-tremont-waters-will-seek-release-from-georgetown-loi
Our erstwhile hero is on the case.
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Nepotism is good - at least for the nepotee.
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The print version in this morning's New Haven Register had a lot more info but it's not available online (yet). But it's sounds like the JTIII uncertainty has him rethinking his commit to Georgetown.
http://sportzedge.com/2017/03/11/report-tremont-waters-requests-release-from-georgetown/
Report: Tremont Waters requests release from Georgetown
(WTNH)–Notre Dame-West Haven point guard Tremont Waters has requested a release of his commitment to Georgetown, according to ESPN recruiting analyst Adam Finkelstein.
TWITTER
Adam Finkelstein ✔ @AdamFinkelstein
ESPN 100 PG Tremont Waters has requested a release from Georgetown per his father.
7:03 PM - 11 Mar 2017
Waters, who led the Green Knights to an undefeated regular season and the No. 1 overall seed in the Class LL tournament, is the 33rd-ranked player in ESPN’s Top 100, and the 8th-ranked point guard nationally.
He committed to Georgetown back in October, but since then the Hoyas have had a disappointing season and rumors about head coach John Thompson III’s status have been swirling.
Georgetown finished 14-18 and was bounced in the first round of the Big East tournament by St. John’s.
Waters also received offers from UConn, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, Indiana and Yale.
More stories by Kels Dayton, WTNH.com Staff
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Brought up in the Superbar.
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Tremont 2 Marquette.
Would he be barred from any BIG East school according to Conference rules?
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Would he be barred from any BIG East school according to Conference rules?
Didn't think I needed the teal.
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I see this as meaning one of two things:
1) Waters knows JT3 is on his way out and wants out ahead of the ensuing storm.
2) JT3 has lost the faith of his recruit(s) and possibly players and should be fired.
Either way, he should be gone. The difficulty here is that Georgetown will want to act quickly to replace him, but are hamstrung by the start of the tournament. If they want to move on a Will Wade or Danny Hurley, they will likely have to wait until their postseasons are over.
I'd be curious to see the interest in Georgetown as a job right now. I have to imagine they can afford to pay going rates, they play in a top league, access to fertile recruiting grounds, national brand, a NBA arena, and a major market. If the Wizards move to a new arena (Leonsis hinted at one (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ted-leonsis-looks-toward-the-future-hints-at-possible-move-for-capitals-wizards/2016/11/02/25c11eb8-a118-11e6-8832-23a007c77bb4_story.html?utm_term=.f8135ffe32cb) 6 years down the road) the Hoyas might follow. It still seems like a good job, can't imagine it's lost too much luster yet. Is there a better opening in the country right now?
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I see this as meaning one of two things:
1) Waters knows JT3 is on his way out and wants out ahead of the ensuing storm.
2) JT3 has lost the faith of his recruit(s) and possibly players and should be fired.
Either way, he should be gone. The difficulty here is that Georgetown will want to act quickly to replace him, but are hamstrung by the start of the tournament. If they want to move on a Will Wade or Danny Hurley, they will likely have to wait until their postseasons are over.
I'd be curious to see the interest in Georgetown as a job right now. I have to imagine they can afford to pay going rates, they play in a top league, access to fertile recruiting grounds, national brand, a NBA arena, and a major market. If the Wizards move to a new arena (Leonsis hinted at one (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ted-leonsis-looks-toward-the-future-hints-at-possible-move-for-capitals-wizards/2016/11/02/25c11eb8-a118-11e6-8832-23a007c77bb4_story.html?utm_term=.f8135ffe32cb) 6 years down the road) the Hoyas might follow. It still seems like a good job, can't imagine it's lost too much luster yet. Is there a better opening in the country right now?
Depends on how difficult the Thompsons will make it for a replacement. If they want to make waves, I think the Illinois job is better.
That's why I wonder if they would like at Patrick Ewing as a replacement. Longtime NBA assistant that I think the Thompsons might grudgingly accept.
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I see this as meaning one of two things:
1) Waters knows JT3 is on his way out and wants out ahead of the ensuing storm.
2) JT3 has lost the faith of his recruit(s) and possibly players and should be fired.
Either way, he should be gone. The difficulty here is that Georgetown will want to act quickly to replace him, but are hamstrung by the start of the tournament. If they want to move on a Will Wade or Danny Hurley, they will likely have to wait until their postseasons are over.
I'd be curious to see the interest in Georgetown as a job right now. I have to imagine they can afford to pay going rates, they play in a top league, access to fertile recruiting grounds, national brand, a NBA arena, and a major market. If the Wizards move to a new arena (Leonsis hinted at one (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ted-leonsis-looks-toward-the-future-hints-at-possible-move-for-capitals-wizards/2016/11/02/25c11eb8-a118-11e6-8832-23a007c77bb4_story.html?utm_term=.f8135ffe32cb) 6 years down the road) the Hoyas might follow. It still seems like a good job, can't imagine it's lost too much luster yet. Is there a better opening in the country right now?
Not to mention being a prestigious school academically.
If it opens up, and barring any surprises at other schools, it will definitely be the best available coaching job this year.
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If they want to make waves, I think the Illinois job is better.
If I were a coach I wouldn't take the Illinois job simply because of the terrible financial shape of the state of Illinois, and more specifically, the Illinois university system. It is only a matter of time before they start taking resources away from athletics.
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Depends on how difficult the Thompsons will make it for a replacement. If they want to make waves, I think the Illinois job is better.
That's why I wonder if they would like at Patrick Ewing as a replacement. Longtime NBA assistant that I think the Thompsons might grudgingly accept.
Sometimes you have to make a clean break. I think now is the time.
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Depends on how difficult the Thompsons will make it for a replacement. If they want to make waves, I think the Illinois job is better.
That's why I wonder if they would like at Patrick Ewing as a replacement. Longtime NBA assistant that I think the Thompsons might grudgingly accept.
I'll be interested to see how involved the Thompsons would be. Will JT3 look for another job? I think he would thrive at a lower level, but since he's started trying to adapt his style to more up-tempo, it seems like results have gone steadily downhill. Ewing would be an interesting choice, and be in the "keeping up with the Johnses" line of thinking after the Mullin hire has started to show results. Personally, I think disconnecting from the Thompsons is the best thing they could do, but not sure how viable that is when it comes to alumni relations.
I think Illinois is the most overrated job out there. Their last coaching search was an absolute trainwreck. They thought Shaka Smart would come if they tripled his salary, but he had no interest. Brad Stevens got the call, but didn't accept an interview. Then Lorenzo Romar, Anthony Grant, and Leonard Hamilton got calls and said thanks but no thanks. Groce was at best their sixth choice for the job.
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I'll be interested to see how involved the Thompsons would be. Will JT3 look for another job? I think he would thrive at a lower level, but since he's started trying to adapt his style to more up-tempo, it seems like results have gone steadily downhill. Ewing would be an interesting choice, and be in the "keeping up with the Johnses" line of thinking after the Mullin hire has started to show results. Personally, I think disconnecting from the Thompsons is the best thing they could do, but not sure how viable that is when it comes to alumni relations.
I think Illinois is the most overrated job out there. Their last coaching search was an absolute trainwreck. They thought Shaka Smart would come if they tripled his salary, but he had no interest. Brad Stevens got the call, but didn't accept an interview. Then Lorenzo Romar, Anthony Grant, and Leonard Hamilton got calls and said thanks but no thanks. Groce was at best their sixth choice for the job.
How committed is Gtown to the Conference after reorganization. They were pretty opposed to Creighton joining and I don't remember why. They have a good basketball tradition but is the School admin more similar to MU or DePaul when it comes to basketball. The reason I mention Depaul is that it too had a Father/Son succession and we know how that turned out.
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Georgetown doesn't really have much choice other than being committed to the Big East. They don't have better offers.
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How committed is Gtown to the Conference after reorganization. They were pretty opposed to Creighton joining and I don't remember why. They have a good basketball tradition but is the School admin more similar to MU or DePaul when it comes to basketball. The reason I mention Depaul is that it too had a Father/Son succession and we know how that turned out.
They just built the Thompson Center practice facility. They are strong in most Olympic sports. Creighton was opposed because of travel, Olympic sports, and East Coast bias (Syracuse and UCONN missed). Even though Nova and MU were the two brainchilds of reforming, Georgetown wanted to control, which their bevy of lawyers helped with the decoupling and keeping MSG.
Their board has a mega thread on JTIII, and many are blaming that thread for the decommit. They need to figure it out quick as the indecision is worse than the decision at this point on the coach.
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Georgetown doesn't really have much choice other than being committed to the Big East. They don't have better offers.
This exactly. Where would they go? The ACC isn't looking for any non-football members, and I can't see any way Georgetown would want to go to the A-10 or CAA.
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Could the Georgetown opening maybe entice someone like Tommy Amaker (and would Georgetown be interested)? Big schools have targeted him before, but they didn't want to give up the wife's prestigious job. Georgetown, although no Harvard, is still quite prestigious.
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They just built the Thompson Center practice facility. They are strong in most Olympic sports.
I think that the JT Center just opening -- complete with a nice big statue of JT -- complicates matters somewhat. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. JT will always be a huge part of what goes on at GU, and I just don't know how that will work if JTIII gets fired.
If JTIII gets fired (or resigns), I'll be very interested to see how they handle that. I wonder if they'll spend the money to get a top-level coach. Probably. But in many respects, GU seems very cost conscious in how it handles athletics. I'm not sure that applies to MBB. Which is understandable since it's MBB that finances everything else. The new facility -- which is beautiful -- is driven by the needs of the MBB program and much of the space is devoted to MBB. But it absolutely is a nice benefit for all of the other programs.
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Sometimes you have to make a clean break. I think now is the time.
DePaul did the same thing with the Meyers and look where it got them.
Yikes!
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DePaul did the same thing with the Meyers and look where it got them.
Yikes!
DePaul waited too long before pulling the trigger. Georgetown should take note.
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Georgetown > Illinois
Why?
D.C. versus Champaign-Urbana.
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Georgetown > Illinois
Why?
D.C. versus Champaign-Urbana.
Crap city yes, but Chambana is one hell of a weekend.
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The only way for everybody to save face is for JTIII to resign .
His firing would be a public relations nightmare.
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Lower level contact in G'Town athletics says he is only fired if JT Jr. endorses. Resignation is possible. JT Jr. still has a lot of power.
Nothing the astute observers on Scoop haven't already come up with.
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Sometimes you have to make a clean break. I think now is the time.
glow
While I do not disagree with you, as a Prep alum, I know for a fact that Jr is a water walker who exerts incredible influence in many areas within that ecosystem.
Pissing off Jr would be worse than Marquette alienating Al in that Al stayed in touch after coaching but wasn't involved in the strategic direction of the program and the university. Jr is very much a part of GU's leadership.
For what it's worth, III has a .700 winning record at GU and single-handedly got the new practice facility built. It is a magnificent facility which happens to be named for his father.
The discussion within GU circles focuses on this question: If not JTIII then who?
GU alums place a huge amount of blame for the program's downturn on the conference. They will tell you that JTIII has a decade of national prominence, including 7 straight top ten seasons; the hard times began with the collapse of the Big East.
The decline in luster is directly correlated with the NBE and if they fire III they are more likely to get a Craig Esherick than a successful, established, proven DI winner.
JTIII's biggest issue is that his team's stopped playing defense - they have ranked near the bottom for the past 4 seasons (sound familiar??) But III runs a clean program, he is a fantastic ambassador of the university, the administration and alums respect him, and he has demonstrated a willingness to alter his tactical reliance on Princeton sets.
The Waters defection is concerning because GU has long been known as a big man program - a rep that became more acute under III due to his Princeton style offense. A highly rated PG committing to III was crucial as it coincided with his willingness to push the ball more in transition as well as implementing a full court press on defense.
I am certain that Jr, DiGioia, and Reed have had a long conversation with III about the state of the program and his stewardship of it. I think he gets one more year, at least, to get his sh1t together. Losing Waters will hurt because much of their recent struggles on offense have been entirely due to the lack of an actual PG.
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Marquette had no reason to alienate Al. Allie McGuire wasn't coaching the team, leading to poorer results by the year however. What's happening at Georgetown is similar to what happened at DePaul. They are hoping that the son of a legend can regain form and lead them to more positive results. But using history as a guide, DePaul waiting too long to jettison Joey Meyer. Georgetown would be well versed to learn some lessons from them.
Why would the Big East bear the brunt of the blame for the regression of Big East basketball? That makes no sense. Their recruiting has been fine. Other teams have handled the transition just fine.
And regardless, what choice does Georgetown have? Are they going to drop to the A10? They either have adapt or continue to be mediocre.
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...and single-handedly got the new practice facility built. It is a magnificent facility which happens to be named for his father.
Crash, have you seen/toured? I haven't, but I heard it's outstanding. Rave reviews and increased excitement at our place.
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Peak as gowne as Hank was the second he committed to MU ai'na?
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GU alums place a huge amount of blame for the program's downturn on the conference. They will tell you that JTIII has a decade of national prominence, including 7 straight top ten seasons; the hard times began with the collapse of the Big East.
I don't doubt that GTown fans feel that way, but the reality is that the conference is still very strong. In fact, if the conference is as weak as their theory would indicate, they should be dominating it year after year (like Wichita State, Gonzaga or Memphis before the AAC). Instead, they've moved from a top-half team in the conference to a bottom-half team.
Yes, it was a hit to lose teams like UConn, UL, and Cuse, but GTown fans can't realistically blame their team's demise on the realignment.
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Yes, it was a hit to lose teams like UConn, UL, and Cuse, but GTown fans can't realistically blame their team's demise on the realignment.
95% (at least) of fans aren't realistic.
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95% (at least) of fans aren't realistic.
Hard to argue with that....
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I don't doubt that GTown fans feel that way, but the reality is that the conference is still very strong. In fact, if the conference is as weak as their theory would indicate, they should be dominating it year after year (like Wichita State, Gonzaga or Memphis before the AAC). Instead, they've moved from a top-half team in the conference to a bottom-half team.
Yes, it was a hit to lose teams like UConn, UL, and Cuse, but GTown fans can't realistically blame their team's demise on the realignment.
It was a hit for Gtown not so much for the Conference. UConn and Syracuse were their rivals, but both programs as is Gtown are all struggling right now. Once Pitino retires UL won't be the same as they are now as well.
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It was a hit for Gtown not so much for the Conference. UConn and Syracuse were their rivals, but both programs as is Gtown are all struggling right now. Once Pitino retires UL won't be the same as they are now as well.
I'm sure that was said about Denny Crum. Great history, decent city, one of the two greatest college basketball rivalries and the ACC. It'll be fine.
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Tremont Waters named CT Gatorade player of the year.
(Corrected. That's what I get typing on my phone in the middle of a super visit.)
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It was a hit for Gtown not so much for the Conference. UConn and Syracuse were their rivals, but both programs as is Gtown are all struggling right now. Once Pitino retires UL won't be the same as they are now as well.
I know several GU alums who are big basketball fans and I've never heard them use the NBE as an excuse for recent struggles.
IMO it's probably best for Georgetown to give JTIII another year and then move on once they likely have another bad year. They might be afraid of the alternative, but the status quo is pretty brutal right now.
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Casual Hoyas saying they have unconfirmed reports JTIII has been fired.
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Reporting on ESPN.
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glow
While I do not disagree with you, as a Prep alum, I know for a fact that Jr is a water walker who exerts incredible influence in many areas within that ecosystem.
Pissing off Jr would be worse than Marquette alienating Al in that Al stayed in touch after coaching but wasn't involved in the strategic direction of the program and the university. Jr is very much a part of GU's leadership.
For what it's worth, III has a .700 winning record at GU and single-handedly got the new practice facility built. It is a magnificent facility which happens to be named for his father.
The discussion within GU circles focuses on this question: If not JTIII then who?
GU alums place a huge amount of blame for the program's downturn on the conference. They will tell you that JTIII has a decade of national prominence, including 7 straight top ten seasons; the hard times began with the collapse of the Big East.
The decline in luster is directly correlated with the NBE and if they fire III they are more likely to get a Craig Esherick than a successful, established, proven DI winner.
JTIII's biggest issue is that his team's stopped playing defense - they have ranked near the bottom for the past 4 seasons (sound familiar??) But III runs a clean program, he is a fantastic ambassador of the university, the administration and alums respect him, and he has demonstrated a willingness to alter his tactical reliance on Princeton sets.
The Waters defection is concerning because GU has long been known as a big man program - a rep that became more acute under III due to his Princeton style offense. A highly rated PG committing to III was crucial as it coincided with his willingness to push the ball more in transition as well as implementing a full court press on defense.
I am certain that Jr, DiGioia, and Reed have had a long conversation with III about the state of the program and his stewardship of it. I think he gets one more year, at least, to get his sh1t together. Losing Waters will hurt because much of their recent struggles on offense have been entirely due to the lack of an actual PG.
Are we still on the topic of hubris?
First Washington, now this.
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I could see Crean fitting in great at G'town.
- Tight with Paul T (running the search)
- Big East experience
- Fresh energy to the program
- Fans are more patient out east
Calling it now (no teal): Crean to Georgetown
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Crean ta Gannon Community College, hey?
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I could see Crean fitting in great at G'town.
- Tight with Paul T (running the search)
- Big East experience
- Fresh energy to the program
- Fans are more patient out east
Calling it now (no teal): Crean to Georgetown
Ha. Not a chance.
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Crash, have you seen/toured? I haven't, but I heard it's outstanding. Rave reviews and increased excitement at our place.
I did. It is magnificent. Caters to all sports. Very, very well done.
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I don't doubt that GTown fans feel that way, but the reality is that the conference is still very strong. In fact, if the conference is as weak as their theory would indicate, they should be dominating it year after year (like Wichita State, Gonzaga or Memphis before the AAC). Instead, they've moved from a top-half team in the conference to a bottom-half team.
Yes, it was a hit to lose teams like UConn, UL, and Cuse, but GTown fans can't realistically blame their team's demise on the realignment.
Unlike others here, I am sure you understand I am relating the views of friends of mine who matriculated at GU. There is a pronounced view among GU alums that the conference is diminished in stature. In fact, they are correct in that view. But to suggest that is correlated to the downturn in GU hoops is problematic.
The Big East is nothing like the old conference. But that isn't the primary reason why GU is struggling on the court.
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Diminished in stature in the same way that Golden State isn't having as good a regular season as they had a year ago. The Big East of 8-10 years ago was amazing. No doubt about it. And then it collapsed due to the money grab that is football. The current iteration of the Big East, though not the same, is still damn good (see conference rankings this year and Villanova last year) and the absolute best that non-football schools within a certain geographic footprint could have achieved. To complain about it and blame it for a downturn in basketball fortunes labels you as a whiner.
It will be interesting to see who Georgetown gets to be their next coach. And whoever it is, it will be a measuring stick and should send a message to fans of other Big East programs to be careful before clamoring to be rid of their current coach.
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It will be interesting to see who Georgetown gets to be their next coach. And whoever it is, it will be a measuring stick and should send a message to fans of other Big East programs to be careful before clamoring to be rid of their current coach.
So is this a round about way of saying that you think their hiring process will not result in a strong hire?
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I am not sure there IS a strong hire that will be a good institutional fit at Georgetown.
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I did. It is magnificent. Caters to all sports. Very, very well done.
I got a similar report. The other thing that it does is creates a domino effect for the teams that aren't going to be housed in the JT Center. Now that the BB teams (and lacrosse and soccer) are moving into JT, that opens space in McDonough. The WVB team, which didn't have its own space previously, is moving into the WBB space. Which is nice.
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Diminished in stature in the same way that Golden State isn't having as good a regular season as they had a year ago. The Big East of 8-10 years ago was amazing. No doubt about it. And then it collapsed due to the money grab that is football. The current iteration of the Big East, though not the same, is still damn good (see conference rankings this year and Villanova last year) and the absolute best that non-football schools within a certain geographic footprint could have achieved. To complain about it and blame it for a downturn in basketball fortunes labels you as a whiner.
It will be interesting to see who Georgetown gets to be their next coach. And whoever it is, it will be a measuring stick and should send a message to fans of other Big East programs to be careful before clamoring to be rid of their current coach.
I think what Keefe was driving at involves the brand of the programs rather than just the quality. While basketball fans may know Creighton and Butler have great programs these days, those programs don't exactly make the toes tingle like Syracuse and Connecticut do.
The first season in the new Big East felt like a mourning period for a lot of us folks that absolutely loved the old conference and grieved the loss of some big-named programs--and that was for fans of an MU program that had been in the conference less than a decade! Given its historical place in the Big East, I think it's a far more extended mourning period for G'town, which feel the loss of the departed programs to a greater degree (and for Villanova too, judging from friends that went there). For that reason, I continue to be in the UConn-in-the-BE camp even if only for a shorter term stay.
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I am not sure there IS a strong hire that will be a good institutional fit at Georgetown.
Honestly, this might just not be a great year for coaching hires. One name I haven't heard associated with them is King Rice. He's successfully built an East Coast program at a private university, has an exciting, up-tempo style that would resonate with recruits, and ticks the minority box. I know he doesn't have the NCAA success of some others, but neither did Billy Donovan or Mike White at Florida and they both worked out fine.
I think this is one of those situations where Georgetown might overreach on someone that doesn't really elevate them or just takes the available candidate because there's no obvious choice out there. Rice might be the one untapped rockstar hire that could reinvigorate their fanbase.
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I am not sure there IS a strong hire that will be a good institutional fit at Georgetown.
Honestly, all I can come up with - outside of current BE coaches/assistants (who would likely be off-limits any way) - is someone like Mike Brey, Mark Few, Dana Altman, Sean Miller, etc... and I don't think any of those are leaving their current gig for G-Town.
Now, if you're going for a strong hire or institutional fit, there's probably a dozen names out there who would make the jump. Actually, one less because he got hired at IU.
Frankly, I may have to eat my words since Crean might be the closest thing out there that resembles a strong hire and institutional fit for G-Town.
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Not sure if I heard it here or elsewhere, but it sounds like Georgetown will almost certainly make a minority hire. I think that's why names like Ewing and Cooley have been floated, and why I suggested King Rice.
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Not sure if I heard it here or elsewhere, but it sounds like Georgetown will almost certainly make a minority hire. I think that's why names like Ewing and Cooley have been floated, and why I suggested King Rice.
Sorry, but I thought we were not aloud to discriminate.
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Not sure if I heard it here or elsewhere, but it sounds like Georgetown will almost certainly make a minority hire. I think that's why names like Ewing and Cooley have been floated, and why I suggested King Rice.
If that is true, that is a huge mistake. Why would it make sense to eliminate 90% of qualified candidates right off the bat? Are they afraid that JTIII is going to claim he was racially discriminated against?
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If that is true, that is a huge mistake. Why would it make sense to eliminate 90% of qualified candidates right off the bat? Are they afraid that JTIII is going to claim he was racially discriminated against?
Not sure JTIII would do that. Hurts him in his own job search.
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If that is true, that is a huge mistake. Why would it make sense to eliminate 90% of qualified candidates right off the bat? Are they afraid that JTIII is going to claim he was racially discriminated against?
I don't think that's why, but I do think Georgetown has somewhat a reputation as a bit of a pioneer in that regard. I think they've gained a lot of respect from black coaches because of that and they may want to try to maintain that status.
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Not sure JTIII would do that. Hurts him in his own job search.
No, no. You guys are missing the point. Because of John Thompson, Jr. and the program he ran, Georgetown has had enormous influence in the black community across the last three decades (and not just in DC, but especially so there). The school won't let go of that role and their relationship with JT Jr lightly.
I'm surprised you didn't know that as an occasional black guy.
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No, no. You guys are missing the point. Because of John Thompson, Jr. and the program he ran, Georgetown has had enormous influence in the black community across the last three decades (and not just in DC, but especially so there). The school won't let go of that role and their relationship with JT Jr lightly.
I'm surprised you didn't know that as an occasional black guy.
This is what I wanted to say, but stated far better than I did. Thanks, BBJ.
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This is what I wanted to say, but stated far better than I did. Thanks, BBJ.
I didn't see your comment until after I posted mine, but you're right, we're saying the same thing. Pioneers indeed.
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No, no. You guys are missing the point. Because of John Thompson, Jr. and the program he ran, Georgetown has had enormous influence in the black community across the last three decades (and not just in DC, but especially so there). The school won't let go of that role and their relationship with JT Jr lightly.
I'm surprised you didn't know that as an occasional black guy.
By that logic Notre Dame should have hired only white Norwegian football coaches and not let go of Knute Rockne's legacy. If this is true it stinks. They should hire the best coach because of their qualifications, nothing else, and if that coach happens to be black so be it.
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They should hire the best coach because of their qualifications, nothing else
It was decades of the complete absence of this principle in college basketball and elsewhere that makes Georgetown protective of their legacy.
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By that logic Notre Dame should have hired only white Norwegian football coaches and not let go of Knute Rockne's legacy. If this is true it stinks. They should hire the best coach because of their qualifications, nothing else, and if that coach happens to be black so be it.
This made me curious. I wonder how many of the ND football coaches after Rockne were Catholic. I don't know the answer, but I strongly suspect a lot of them. Rockne wasn't when hired, but converted.
I don't think the issue at Georgetown is as much about the coach, as it is the BB student athlete population they have focused on. If Georgetown plans to continue what is a pretty apparent focus on Black athletes in basketball, I would expect them to hire a Black coach. That focus might shift, but it's hard to know at this point. It's obviously not a perfect analogy, but in this aspect GU basketball could be viewed as similar to a HBCU.
I'm editing because I felt the original post didn't clearly and accurately reflect what I was trying to say. My thoughts on this really relate to the point BBB made in the post immediately above mine. For many, many years starting with JT, Georgetown seems to have made a very specific point to offer opportunities to Black basketball players. That is the "focus" was I was referring to. I've assumed for a lot of years that this was simply a philosophical view taken by Georgetown basketball. So, when I reference GU's apparent focus on Black players, I'm talking about a social/values issue and not a basketball issue. I expect this hire to reflect that. This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism of that approach; rather it is simply what I think will probably happen.
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No, no. You guys are missing the point. Because of John Thompson, Jr. and the program he ran, Georgetown has had enormous influence in the black community across the last three decades (and not just in DC, but especially so there). The school won't let go of that role and their relationship with JT Jr lightly.
I'm surprised you didn't know that as an occasional black guy.
Paging Craig Esherick
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Paging Craig Esherick
Esh was a hand picked Big John guy.
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It was decades of the complete absence of this principle in college basketball and elsewhere that makes Georgetown protective of their legacy.
This.
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It was decades of the complete absence of this principle in college basketball and elsewhere that makes Georgetown protective of their legacy.
That's fine, but excluding the vast majority of candidates based on criteria that have little or nothing to do with being successful at the job is how we wound up with Pilarz.
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That's fine, but excluding the vast majority of candidates based on criteria that have little or nothing to do with being successful at the job is how we wound up with Pilarz.
Agreed, no one should be excluded. But fair or not, the race of the candidate does have an impact on if Georgetown will be an institutional fit for them. The comparison made earlier to an HBCU is accurate. Georgetown has a long and proud history of supporting black basketball players and coaches, dating back to times when that was not a popular thing to do. That's a point of pride that I am sure is hard to give up Not saying it's right. Just saying it is.
Hell, I remember when Wojo was hired a lot of people on here were making statements about how he didn't fit in with Marquette culture. Lots of statements about how Wojo needed to recruit kids from cracked sidewalks and when we win championships we cut nets down with switchblades. That pride that many here felt about the culture established by Al is not something easily given up. Georgetown has a similar if not greater pride for their culture.
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Hell, I remember when Wojo was hired a lot of people on here were making statements about how he didn't fit in with Marquette culture.
When he was hired? I'm not sure those thoughts have changed all that much in the past 3 years...
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Agreed, no one should be excluded. But fair or not, the race of the candidate does have an impact on if Georgetown will be an institutional fit for them. The comparison made earlier to an HBCU is accurate. Georgetown has a long and proud history of supporting black basketball players and coaches, dating back to times when that was not a popular thing to do. That's a point of pride that I am sure is hard to give up Not saying it's right. Just saying it is.
This is precisely the point I was trying to make. Well put.
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Agreed, no one should be excluded. But fair or not, the race of the candidate does have an impact on if Georgetown will be an institutional fit for them. The comparison made earlier to an HBCU is accurate. Georgetown has a long and proud history of supporting black basketball players and coaches, dating back to times when that was not a popular thing to do. That's a point of pride that I am sure is hard to give up Not saying it's right. Just saying it is.
Hell, I remember when Wojo was hired a lot of people on here were making statements about how he didn't fit in with Marquette culture. Lots of statements about how Wojo needed to recruit kids from cracked sidewalks and when we win championships we cut nets down with switchblades. That pride that many here felt about the culture established by Al is not something easily given up. Georgetown has a similar if not greater pride for their culture.
So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated: Not saying it is right, just saying it is; but we know there is no school out there because we know it is not right. It is discrimination but everyone wants to skirt around the issue, not to mention that Georgetown takes pride in it. It's 2017, we should evaluate people based on their talents, not on the color of their skin.
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Agreed, no one should be excluded. But fair or not, the race of the candidate does have an impact on if Georgetown will be an institutional fit for them. The comparison made earlier to an HBCU is accurate. Georgetown has a long and proud history of supporting black basketball players and coaches, dating back to times when that was not a popular thing to do. That's a point of pride that I am sure is hard to give up Not saying it's right. Just saying it is.
If anything, I think Georgetown should feel less pressure than most institutions to hire a minority coach, because they have already done more than enough to prove that they are colorblind in that regard.
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So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated: Not saying it is right, just saying it is; but we know there is no school out there because we know it is not right. It is discrimination but everyone wants to skirt around the issue, not to mention that Georgetown takes pride in it. It's 2017, we should evaluate people based on their talents, not on the color of their skin.
No, it's not discrimination. They don't refuse Caucasians from being associated with their basketball program, they simply take pride in the fact that before anybody else was accepting African Americans they were actively doing so. There is nothing discriminating about that, and if you think African Americans are no longer discriminated against in 2017 you need to open your eyes.
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So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated: Not saying it is right, just saying it is; but we know there is no school out there because we know it is not right. It is discrimination but everyone wants to skirt around the issue, not to mention that Georgetown takes pride in it. It's 2017, we should evaluate people based on their talents, not on the color of their skin.
Huh? Georgetown has a history of supporting black players and coaches when other programs wouldn't. That's actually called anti-discrimination. It's 2017 but learn your history, bruh.
Edit: I'm mostly just repeating what wades said.
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No, it's not discrimination. They don't refuse Caucasians from being associated with their basketball program, they simply take pride in the fact that before anybody else was accepting African Americans they were actively doing so. There is nothing discriminating about that, and if you think African Americans are no longer discriminated against in 2017 you need to open your eyes.
Maybe I just wasn't as aware then, but I honestly think we're going the wrong way as far as that goes. For all the strides we made in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, I feel like we are discriminating more against African Americans than we were a decade ago. Not saying it's ever been easy to be anything other than a white male in America, but in recent days it seems to be getting worse for women and minorities rather than better, and that's been a trend for a few years now.
And by we, I mean we as a country.
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No, it's not discrimination. They don't refuse Caucasians from being associated with their basketball program, they simply take pride in the fact that before anybody else was accepting African Americans they were actively doing so. There is nothing discriminating about that, and if you think African Americans are no longer discriminated against in 2017 you need to open your eyes.
So how many caucasian players have they signed over the last 20 years?
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So how many caucasian players have they signed over the last 20 years?
I have no clue. A few. Do you have any evidence that their recruitment strategy specifically excludes them from recruiting caucasian players?
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So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated: Not saying it is right, just saying it is; but we know there is no school out there because we know it is not right. It is discrimination but everyone wants to skirt around the issue, not to mention that Georgetown takes pride in it. It's 2017, we should evaluate people based on their talents, not on the color of their skin.
So I saw this post and thought about going down the rabbit hole. But I decided against it.....
But then...Chick said this:
because they have already done more than enough to prove that they are colorblind in that regard.
And now I feel like I have to go down the rabbit hole. So here we go.
What you are demonstrating and Chick aptly mentioned is a subtle form of bias known as "colorblindness." Colorblindness is almost always well intentioned but ultimately harmful. Common phrases associated with it are "I don't see color." " The only race that matters is the human race." etc. While these statements are wonderful and beautiful in theory, they unintentionally silence and discredit people from minority groups. The statements imply that everyone is treated fairly and equally....which they should be....but let's face it, they are not. Not even close. I can cite any number of studies that show that the racism still exists in this day and age. The reality is, if a white candidate and a black candidate for a job had the exact same qualifications and the exact same identity groups besides race, the black candidate would be more impressive because s/he managed to earn the same qualifications despite having to overcome barriers put in front of him/her due to race. Colorblindness discredits the black candidate by not acknowledging that they had to work harder to get to the same place (again assuming exact same credentials and identity groups besides race).
Colorblindness also has a silencing effect on the race conversation. It shows an unwillingness and discomfort with talking about and acknowledging race. It is very understandable why white people like myself are uncomfortable talking about it, because we have a long history of using our race to gain more power and control over others. It is very uncomfortable and we won't be able to move forward until we are able to acknowledge and talk about our past and how it is still affecting us today.
My examples to this point have all been about race. The term colorblindness lends itself to race real well. But you can substitute race for any other identity, religion, socio-economic status, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc.
I could go on for pages more. If you are interested I'd be happy to send you some reading material.
As for the specifics brought up in your comment. No, Georgetown has and will continue to recruit white players. That doesn't mean that they don't take pride in all of the work they have done to support black basketball players. I'll bring up the HBCU example again...HBCUs emphasize recruiting black students, but most are at least 10% white. For your example about programs supporting white students. Those did exist....for decades. And while there aren't any that overtly take pride in it you only need to look about 90 miles to the west to find one that is close. You don't remember all the "White basketball success" hashtags at Wisconsin a few years back? It is also different because white players are the privileged group and don't need the same support as players of color. You could also look to women's basketball for some overt examples. The Geno vs. Pat Summit matchups used to be biggest moment of the women's basketball season. Do you know why the series stopped? Pat Summit broke it off because she was sick of Geno recruiting against her by labeling UConn a "family values" program and Tennessee a lesbian program.
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Wow. All I meant was that they have proven that they embrace diversity.
I guess it was a poor word choice.
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Wow. All I meant was that they have proven that they embrace diversity.
I guess it was a poor word choice.
I was talking to 69. The fact that you used the word colorblind is just what inspired me to go down the rabbit hole. I took it as a sign haha.
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So I saw this post and thought about going down the rabbit hole. But I decided against it.....
But then...Chick said this:
And now I feel like I have to go down the rabbit hole. So here we go.
What you are demonstrating and Chick aptly mentioned is a subtle form of bias known as "colorblindness." Colorblindness is almost always well intentioned but ultimately harmful. Common phrases associated with it are "I don't see color." " The only race that matters is the human race." etc. While these statements are wonderful and beautiful in theory, they unintentionally silence and discredit people from minority groups. The statements imply that everyone is treated fairly and equally....which they should be....but let's face it, they are not. Not even close. I can cite any number of studies that show that the racism still exists in this day and age. The reality is, if a white candidate and a black candidate for a job had the exact same qualifications and the exact same identity groups besides race, the black candidate would be more impressive because s/he managed to earn the same qualifications despite having to overcome barriers put in front of him/her due to race. Colorblindness discredits the black candidate by not acknowledging that they had to work harder to get to the same place (again assuming exact same credentials and identity groups besides race).
Colorblindness also has a silencing effect on the race conversation. It shows an unwillingness and discomfort with talking about and acknowledging race. It is very understandable why white people like myself are uncomfortable talking about it, because we have a long history of using our race to gain more power and control over others. It is very uncomfortable and we won't be able to move forward until we are able to acknowledge and talk about our past and how it is still affecting us today.
My examples to this point have all been about race. The term colorblindness lends itself to race real well. But you can substitute race for any other identity, religion, socio-economic status, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc.
I could go on for pages more. If you are interested I'd be happy to send you some reading material.
As for the specifics brought up in your comment. No, Georgetown has and will continue to recruit white players. That doesn't mean that they don't take pride in all of the work they have done to support black basketball players. I'll bring up the HBCU example again...HBCUs emphasize recruiting black students, but most are at least 10% white. For your example about programs supporting white students. Those did exist....for decades. And while there aren't any that overtly take pride in it you only need to look about 90 miles to the west to find one that is close. You don't remember all the "White basketball success" hashtags at Wisconsin a few years back? It is also different because white players are the privileged group and don't need the same support as players of color. You could also look to women's basketball for some overt examples. The Geno vs. Pat Summit matchups used to be biggest moment of the women's basketball season. Do you know why the series stopped? Pat Summit broke it off because she was sick of Geno recruiting against her by labeling UConn a "family values" program and Tennessee a lesbian program.
I am not uncomfortable talking race and I never tried to use my race to gain power over anyone. All those studies I am sure like to lump people into this bucket or that group and fail to see people as individuals. Is there individual racism, sure. Do I have individual biases; I do. I looked it up. John Thompson Jr. in his 28 seasons as head coach at Georgetown signed 14 caucasian players, just under 4% of his players. If a white coach signed only 4% black players over 28 seasons, well lets say, we wouldn't call him a coach who strove to be diverse, but then again what do I know since I am the only one who is colorblind according to all the "experts". Can black people be colorblind? I am just asking. I really want to know? Welcome to the rabbit hole. I just may learn something.
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This is where the vocabulary gets in the way of the spirit (and utility) of good race discussions and things come undone. Its kind of like the race discussion version of Godwin's law. I have a high degree of sympathy for good intentions relying on points relating to colorblindness and viewing the judgment of merit vs race as mutually exclusive. That is the vocabulary often used by early civil rights leaders and its about the extent of how we all learned to fight prejudice growing up (regardless of when we were growing up).
The problem is that while the platonic ideal of equality, that understanding of race relations sacrifices the good in pursuit of the great, while failing to recognize the incrementalism that is necessary to even approach the great. It leads us to say we aren't discriminatory while opposing affirmative action - despite the fact that if we can look at the overwhelming evidence of communities of color universally performing worse on standardized test scores and still think there isn't something going on there that needs social correction, we are undeniably discriminating against those communities. It lends us to characterize all use of the N-word as wrong and criticize its use in black communities while ignoring how that word was used to dehumanize for centuries, and tsk-tsking the same community for taking ownership over it and deriving empowerment from it adds insult to that injury. It lends us to decry and focus on what we perceive to be discrete cases of reverse racism in the face of ongoing and overwhelming institutional racism.
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I am not uncomfortable talking race and I never tried to use my race to gain power over anyone. All those studies I am sure like to lump people into this bucket or that group and fail to see people as individuals. Is there individual racism, sure. Do I have individual biases; I do. I looked it up. John Thompson Jr. in his 28 seasons as head coach at Georgetown signed 14 caucasian players, just under 4% of his players. If a white coach signed only 4% black players over 28 seasons, well lets say, we wouldn't call him a coach who strove to be diverse, but then again what do I know since I am the only one who is colorblind according to all the "experts". Can black people be colorblind? I am just asking. I really want to know? Welcome to the rabbit hole. I just may learn something.
I guarantee you that you have used your race to gain power or advantage in a situation. Most of the time unintentionally. I know I have benefited greatly from being a white, straight, christian male. It's nothing to feel bad about. It just is. Its an unfortunate part of the human experience in today's age.
The problem isn't individual racism. Depending on your definition of racism, everyone is racist at some level. But that word has gotten so negatively charged that I don't like to use it. I prefer the term biased because it is more generalizable to all people regardless of their identities. The problem is that there is systematic bias that gives advantages and disadvantages to different groups of people based on identities that you can't control. The most hot button of which right now is the bathroom law in North Carolina. It is legal to discriminate against somebody because of their gender identity. In many states it is legal to fire someone based on their sexual orientation. African Americans are incarcerated for longer sentences than white criminals who commit the same crimes with the same history. Women make less money for doing the same job with the same qualifications as their male coworkers. These are just a few of the main examples.
How many white players JT3 has recruited is irrelevant. White players are not a minority group that is systematically discriminated against. Georgetown emphasizing black players is a form of support against discrimination. A white coach only recruiting black players would be in support of discrimination.
You are not colorblind. You are a person who said something colorblind. Everyone does at some point. I still remember a moment in college where I proudly declared before 300 fellow students that we shouldn't care if Obama was black, we should just judge him on his politics. I didn't realize the impact that statement could have until years later. I still make colorblind statements to this day. We all have bias, its part of being human.
Can black people be colorblind? That is a great question. It depends on who you ask. Some say yes. Some say no. It depends on how you define racism. Personally, I say no. You need to have some sort of power or privilege that comes from your identity in order to be colorblind. Though a black man could be colorblind against a white woman because of the privilege his gender brings him. Other scholars disagree. That's why I prefer the term bias, its universally applicable.
I hope you don't take this as an attack. This is something I'm passionate about and I feel like things like HBCUs and Georgetown get taken out of context a lot. I'm trying to explain my position and thought process. But I love conversations like this so I would be happy to continue.
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So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated: Not saying it is right, just saying it is; but we know there is no school out there because we know it is not right. It is discrimination but everyone wants to skirt around the issue, not to mention that Georgetown takes pride in it. It's 2017, we should evaluate people based on their talents, not on the color of their skin.
BANGO!!
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Wow. All I meant was that they have proven that they embrace diversity.
I guess it was a poor word choice.
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here's the thing chick and i'm saying this with all due respect as you've earned it over the years here on scoop-i think your point was well meaning but easily misunderstood. sometimes people will try to go out of their way(s) to attend to minorities or make the appearance as such to try to get ahead of a racist label.
for example, and i think tamu hit on this in his post as well-some of my best friends are...or georgetown can't be racist because they have hired or signed...
this is a very sticky wicket and many times i believe it becomes a damned if you do and damned if you don't and that's why sometimes the "rabbit hole" is a safe place(no pun intended)
also, it's a constant, don't tell me... show me
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Rodney Pryor won the dunk contest
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The natives are getting restless
What’s Taking So Long, Georgetown?
http://www.casualhoya.com/2017/4/1/15151074/whats-taking-so-long-georgetown
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Wow TAMU. I'm a simple man from the south side of Milwaukee. Where I come from a guy who only considers the 'content of one's character' is not a racist just like the guy who's girlfriend has had a second beer isn't a rapist.
Now back to the GTown meltdown.
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SI has an article (https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/04/02/georgetown-coaching-search-hoyas-thompson) that is really killing Georgetown for how it's handling this search. One line that people here will love: "Former Indiana coach Tom Crean has been told he’s not a candidate." So, at least in the middle of a very critical article, SI is willing to give credit where it's due.
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If Georgetown is striking out with the "usual suspects" -- and all indications suggest that they are -- one name I've heard mentioned is Jamion Christian at Mount Saint Mary's. If they're going to make a "relative unknown with upside" hire, he's intriguing.
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Wow TAMU. I'm a simple man from the south side of Milwaukee. Where I come from a guy who only considers the 'content of one's character' is not a racist just like the guy who's girlfriend has had a second beer isn't a rapist.
Now back to the GTown meltdown.
Careful, I might go down a different rabbit hole about how grossly misinterpreted the "I Have a Dream" speech is. We ignore 95% of the speech and focus on the 5% that sounds happy. And we don't even get the meaning of the 5% right.
Glow, I too am I simple man from the west side of Milwaukee. And where I come from, no one judges solely on the content of a person's character. They should, but that's not the world we live in. Pretending otherwise, we ignore how many advantages people in the majority are given and how many disadvantages people in the minority are given. It unintentionally keeps the scales unbalanced. Unfortunately, the color of a person's skin (or their religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, etc) has a huge impact on the content of their character. I used to not believe this, but those pesky Jesuits at Marquette helped me see the world differently.
No one said anyone was a racist or would be a racist. I have met maybe 5 or 6 bona fide racists in my lifetime. I don't think any one on here comes close to matching that profile. But I also have yet to meet a person who doesn't do something or say something biased every now and again. Doesn't make us all racists, it just makes us human.
If you'd like to continue the consent and alcohol conversation I'd be happy to but not here. I think this thread has wandered off enough.
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No one said anyone was a racist or would be a racist. I have met maybe 5 or 6 bona fide racists in my lifetime. I don't think any one on here comes close to matching that profile. But I also have yet to meet a person who doesn't do something or say something biased every now and again. Doesn't make us all racists, it just makes us human.
I would tend to agree with this. On this issue, I believe strongly that race relations in this country are worsened by people who know this to be true (like yourself) calling others "racist" for every instance of real or perceived "bias" (unlike what you're doing). Accusing someone of being a racist -- a vile accusation -- does nothing to advance the dialogue that needs to occur. In fact, I believe it is absolutely counter productive.
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I would tend to agree with this. On this issue, I believe strongly that race relations in this country are worsened by people who know this to be true (like yourself) calling others "racist" for every instance of real or perceived "bias" (unlike what you're doing). Accusing someone of being a racist -- a vile accusation -- does nothing to advance the dialogue that needs to occur. In fact, I believe it is absolutely counter productive.
But sometimes utilizing the dialogue that TAMU is using gets you called the "pc police" and makes those slightly biased individuals shut the door on them being remotely at fault.
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But sometimes utilizing the dialogue that TAMU is using gets you called the "pc police" and makes those slightly biased individuals shut the door on them being remotely at fault.
Personally, I'm sick of the "PC police" excuse. It's basically a way for people to say "why are you calling me out for being a inconsiderate asshole?"
Being a jerk isn't something that should be celebrated, but sadly, that's where we're at, maybe because we as a society have been jerks for so long that we don't want to change. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic. Is it really that hard to sack up and be a decent human being?
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But sometimes utilizing the dialogue that TAMU is using gets you called the "pc police" and makes those slightly biased individuals shut the door on them being remotely at fault.
I don't disagree with that. However, I think TAMU's approach in this area is far more likely to lead to a productive discussion. Telling people, "Look, even a well-intentioned person may have a bias that they should be aware of" is a much more productive approach than calling someone a racist. Calling someone a racist typically ends the conversation. I am open to discussing my biases (and society's biases) and learning about situations. But as soon as someone calls me a racist -- which I consider to be an awful and untrue allegation -- I'm done.
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I just went through an implicit bias training exercise the other day. It really was well done and eye-opening in a way I didn't figure it would be. Very non-accusatory.
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(https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/ewing1.gif?w=1000)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Xn5CY8xI3bULC/giphy.gif)
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/39402/patrick-chew-o.gif)
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Counter-argument:
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/1d0cd30d64cfce38b42d690cb54d264a/tumblr_nw54t8DNLz1sdydefo1_400.gif)
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/_oSP2G.gif)
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In the end, I think this was fairly inevitable.
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Maybe I just wasn't as aware then, but I honestly think we're going the wrong way as far as that goes. For all the strides we made in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, I feel like we are discriminating more against African Americans than we were a decade ago. Not saying it's ever been easy to be anything other than a white male in America, but in recent days it seems to be getting worse for women and minorities rather than better, and that's been a trend for a few years now.
And by we, I mean we as a country.
Wow! You must not have been around in the 50's or 60's.
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So if several 4 star white basketball players wanted to go to Georgetown they would not sign them because they are not an "institutional" fit? If there were a school with the same academic standing as Georgetown that had a history of supporting poor white basketball players would it be tolerated?
For those of you who believe this garbage, I would encourage you to find Dr. Peabody's Wayback Machine and return to the late 1960s or early 1970s. People said the same thing about Marquette then that's alleged about Georgetown today. Our coaches were color blind. Al didn't care what they looked like as long as they could play (and the same thing could be said for Coach Lombardi up at Green Bay).
Don't think for a minute the feuds between Al and Adolph "The Bigot" Rupp didn't have a tint of racism on Rupp's part. Keep in mind that Rupp's teams at the time were lily white and our's suffice to say, weren't. Our guys came to the game looking like members of a street gang and Rupp's looked like they just came from a country club.
Take a look at what the term "Cracked Sidewalks" means.
Our best players were African-Americans. Period. When Marquette went down to Knoxville or Athens, GA or to other places in the south, we shocked people. Someone very close to me once accused our team in the early 1970s of being "thugs" when we played street ball against Vanderbilt's finess ball. Of course, we won. That big battle in South Carolina in 1972...
From my vantage point, I don't care what our students look like or where they come from as long as they're good ballplayers, honorable people and good students. I'm sure Georgetown feels the same way. It's the Jesuit thing to do.
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Wow! You must not have been around in the 50's or 60's.
He said we're discriminating more now than we were a decade ago as in the early 2000s. Not that we're discriminating more now then we were in the 50s and 60s
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He said we're discriminating more now than we were a decade ago as in the early 2000s. Not that we're discriminating more now then we were in the 50s and 60s
This. It's not worse than the 50s-60s by any stretch, but I think we're worse now than we were in the 1990s and 2000s.
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This. It's not worse than the 50s-60s by any stretch, but I think we're worse now than we were in the 1990s and 2000s.
To benchmark, how old are you? I disagree strongly with your comment, but it could be a result of how long we have been on this planet or how old you were in the 90's and 2000's.
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This. It's not worse than the 50s-60s by any stretch, but I think we're worse now than we were in the 1990s and 2000s.
Of course this is the case. Just look at who is in the effen White House, how he got there and who is chief advisers are.
Anybody who doesn't know what "Make America Great Again" means is living in a cave or just refuses to see it.
I know we can't talk politics here, but come on.
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Of course this is the case. Just look at who is in the effen White House, how he got there and who is chief advisers are.
Anybody who doesn't know what "Make America Great Again" means is living in a cave or just refuses to see it.
I know we can't talk politics here, but come on.
IOW, "I know we can't talk politics here but I'm embarking on a political rant regardless".
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IOW, "I know we can't talk politics here but I'm embarking on a political rant regardless".
This is why we can't have nice things.
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Of course this is the case. Just look at who is in the effen White House, how he got there and who is chief advisers are.
Anybody who doesn't know what "Make America Great Again" means is living in a cave or just refuses to see it.
I know we can't talk politics here, but come on.
You do this often. Was it not in that same 2000's that another gentleman made that effen White House for two terms and never would have in the 90's?
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IOW, "I know we can't talk politics here but I'm embarking on a political rant regardless".
82 can't stop himself. He's on the correct side of the mods politics so he can get away with it.
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To benchmark, how old are you? I disagree strongly with your comment, but it could be a result of how long we have been on this planet or how old you were in the 90's and 2000's.
40. I was in my late teens to early 20s in the 1990s and my 20s-30s in the 2000s. Spent a significant portion of time in both decades living and working in Milwaukee.
And not to get political, but it's not just MAGA in the White House. I've been noticing it for the past few years now, since well before the election cycle kicked off.
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You do this often. Was it not in that same 2000's that another gentleman made that effen White House for two terms and never would have in the 90's?
Which one of CBB's personalities is this? I get them confused
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His 'friend'. Like Hobbes to Calvin.
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82 can't stop himself. He's on the correct side of the mods politics so he can get away with it.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder197/65552197.jpg)
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82 can't stop himself. He's on the correct side of the mods politics so he can get away with it.
thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou..................................
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Nm
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thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou..................................
Speaking of CBB's little friend. I wish he was imaginary like Hobbes. He thinks white men are the ones being discriminated against.
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Well, that seems to do it for this topic! It was fun while it lasted. Cheeks and two of his ghost accounts show up in the same thread to mix it up about race...nice little throwback to the good ole days.
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Y'all, this is why we can't have nice things. We had some good conversation about race relations going.
Oh well
(http://i.imgur.com/rUumI0j.gif?noredirect)