MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 04:07:21 PM

Title: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 04:07:21 PM
The last time I was on this board, the Warriors were #DoneDeal with Shaka Smart.  To the detriment of many, that was a borderline hoax.  Different names of coaches entered our lexicon.  Finally, there was one........  Wojo.  Excitement spurred through the MU masses due to Wojo's close kinship with Mike K and success.  Wojo had 15 yrs of experience and had recruited some top talent including Milwaukee Bucks own Jabari Parker.  A glimmer of hope shone upon Warrior Nation as Wojo would be the coach to lead us back to the NCAA tournament.  Those hopes were increased as Wojo landed what most other coaches here couldn't:  A blue chip prospect by the name of Henry Ellenson.  The future looked bright, in fact, it looked damn good.

Fast Forward 3 years later and Wojo hasn't delivered.  You could go as far as saying that he's been a huge disappointment.  No post season appearances for MU during Wojo's tenure and this season looks to be in the drain after an embarrassing loss to Georgetown.  By drain, I mean no NCAA tournament appearances.  NIT doesn't cut it for MU, especially for an NCAA program that is top 5 in spending on its basketball team.  Take a further gander south east to our old "friend" Buzz Williams at Virginia Tech.  Buzz has taken a historically bad program, that puts next to zero into its basketball program and is now competitive - much more so than Marquette.

So, what's the issue with Wojo?  Surprisingly, it's simple yet quite dumbfounding.  As a player, Wojo was very defensive minded and a lot to handle on the perimeter when he was at Duke.  This hasn't translated onto any of his teams here at MU.  None have played defense, in fact, they're downright terrible on that side of the ball. Players lose their man, giving up uncontested jumpers and lay ins.  You can find much better defensive teams at the mid major level.  Wojo's teams are a far cry from Buzz's elite defensive, junkyard dog units who would stifle opponents. #Deflections  Wojo is darn right horrendous.  In 3 years at MU he's failed to install a defensive system.  This is unacceptable and will be his undoing at MU.  It's amazing how poorly coached they are on defense.

MU Defensive Rankings vs NCAA Divsion I
Offensive Rebounding- 211th
Defensive Rebounding-218th
Avg Score against - 189th

These stats are abysmal and are those that mediocre mid major teams have.

I understand Wojo was dealt a bad hand here.  MU was in shambles when he arrived.  He's recruited 4 stars, but none to this point have shown much sans Markus Howard.  Heldt is terrible and wouldn't start on many mid major rosters, while Cheatam is solid.  Other than that, Wojo has recruited guards who can shoot, but are undersized.  Secondly, where are all the bigs when it comes to recruiting?  A bunch of undersized 4 star guards won't take you far in a season.  When you look at MU's starting 5 - you see Duke's bench......the ones still in warmups from a physical standpoint.  Yes, he snagged Ellenson which netted Wojo a contract extension but what did that really accomplish?  Short term it was great, but Wojo failed to parlay that move into what matters most - Wins = media hype = recruiting power.   Furthermore, there are other coaches who have done much better who have been dealt similar hands.  Archie Miller from Dayton took a team of basically 6 players to the tourney a few years ago.  Buzz rebuilding Va Tech in the toughest conference, the ACC, and  are jobs well done and signatures of great coaching.

Wojo doesn't have the signature of a great coach.  Often times it seems as if he's barely treading water.  Defense matters most when making an NCAA run, and Wojo hasn't been able to solve that issue in 3 years - posting defensive numbers you find at the mid major level.

Next Coach Up.......

.....The Search Continues.......


Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 12, 2017, 04:12:30 PM
I'll give him until the end of the 2018-2019 season
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 04:27:44 PM
I agree.  It also depends on the contract he signed along with the buyout terms.  If I were in charge, I'd let him go after this year.  Wojo's skill set belongs at a mid major school like UWM.  Any decent coach would have installed a defensive system by year 3.  No excuses.  You can't blame the players because if you are......you're the one that recruited them in the first place.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TheTulsaWarrior on February 12, 2017, 04:34:31 PM
Wojo has a long term contract with a rollover clause.  He's well paid and has top rate institutional support.  The high school recruiting has been encouraging.  I do expect him to build a solid winning program and realize it takes time.  Conversely -- he owes the school and the fan base the level of loyalty he has been shown.  I don't want to see another Kevin O'Neill situation.  I want to see and I expect a two way street.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Let's Go Warriors on February 12, 2017, 04:35:56 PM
2 more seasons.. ugh...
I hope these 2 more seasons people are not at all involved with the people making such decisions.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 04:42:43 PM
Wojo has a long term contract with a rollover clause.  He's well paid and has top rate institutional support.  The high school recruiting has been encouraging.  I do expect him to build a solid winning program and realize it takes time.  Conversely -- he owes the school and the fan base the level of loyalty he has been shown.  I don't want to see another Kevin O'Neill situation.  I want to see and I expect a two way street.

Not sure how you can build a winning program that's based on offense and no defense.  Have these players gotten better under Wojo?  Tough to say.  There are a lot of red flags here Tulsa Warrior.  Year 3 of a coach is when you can see the corner being turned.  We're not seeing that here. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 12, 2017, 04:43:31 PM
2 more seasons.. ugh...
I hope these 2 more seasons people are not at all involved with the people making such decisions.

You have to wonder with the program at it's current level, and fan interest dying off rapidly..what kind of draw the new arena will be for MU fans?? I think winning would trump that or should. Let's say next year is another disaster..heading into the new arena with potentially 4 straight years under Wojo of no NCAA's..That would be disastrous on many levels.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brandx on February 12, 2017, 04:48:57 PM
What kind of egomaniac announces he is back with a topic named for himself?

Oh........
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:15:35 PM
2 more seasons.. ugh...
I hope these 2 more seasons people are not at all involved with the people making such decisions.

The good news...we aren't. The bad news, the people involved are likely even more patient than we are.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: SuddenSam on February 12, 2017, 05:31:57 PM
Good points, though I feel still more time to go.  Challenge is that next year our new interior still is only freshmen. So that obviously puts us further out.  I would go with 2018-19 as well to conclude.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 12, 2017, 05:52:09 PM
Brand x

Your post made my weekend. I found that to be very, very funny. Plus, it made have more respect for MikeDeannes big time. He just became my kind of egomaniac.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MUtopper34 on February 12, 2017, 06:05:59 PM
Good post. Makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: warriorfred on February 12, 2017, 06:12:05 PM
Ego or not, it was a thoughtful post. 

At this point in the 3d season I expected to see improvement in a number of areas (defense, "toughness," in-game adjustments, etc...), and it isn't happening.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MUFlutieEffect on February 12, 2017, 06:15:10 PM
Wojo has a long term contract with a rollover clause.  He's well paid and has top rate institutional support.  The high school recruiting has been encouraging.  I do expect him to build a solid winning program and realize it takes time.  Conversely -- he owes the school and the fan base the level of loyalty he has been shown.  I don't want to see another Kevin O'Neill situation.  I want to see and I expect a two way street.

This is a fantastic point - and one the deserves far more discussion.  Assuming Wojo is around for Year Four (and we all know he will be), MU has been (perhaps overly?) patient and loyal. 

If Duke calls, Wojo is gone, and I think we can all live with that.  But what if that call comes from, say, NC State?  Pittsburgh?  Syracuse?  Is Wojo taking that job and leaving MU in the dust?  If so, it seems fair to be a bit less patient with the current progress. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2017, 06:49:55 PM
We all got as much of a shot at fookin' Kate Upton as Steve has in coachin' Duke, ai na?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 12, 2017, 07:08:29 PM
In a few short minutes Va Tech will be 16-8 (5-7) having lost 3 straight. Best win at home over Duke without Allen. Next best win is Michigan. God awful non con schedule.  Next two games on the road at Pitt and Louisville - could legitimately see them lose 5 straight. Buzz's bunch isn't in much better shape than MU this season.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 12, 2017, 07:14:34 PM
In a few short minutes Va Tech will be 16-8 (5-7) having lost 3 straight.

Still looks like a good game to me - no comment on buzz vs. anyone.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Let's Go Warriors on February 12, 2017, 07:26:39 PM
The good news...we aren't. The bad news, the people involved are likely even more patient than we are.
you likely really don't know for sure...
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: bradley center bat on February 12, 2017, 07:43:19 PM
In a few short minutes Va Tech will be 16-8 (5-7) having lost 3 straight. Best win at home over Duke without Allen. Next best win is Michigan. God awful non con schedule.  Next two games on the road at Pitt and Louisville - could legitimately see them lose 5 straight. Buzz's bunch isn't in much better shape than MU this season.
Or in double overtime.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 12, 2017, 07:49:50 PM
Or in double overtime.

They'll lose.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Golden Avalanche on February 12, 2017, 07:56:09 PM
Ego or not, it was a thoughtful post. 

At this point in the 3d season I expected to see improvement in a number of areas (defense, "toughness," in-game adjustments, etc...), and it isn't happening.

It's the middle of February and Marquette is projected to be in the NCAA Tournament.

Surely that seems to be an area of improvement from Wojo's first and second seasons of coaching.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 12, 2017, 08:00:35 PM
It's the middle of February and Marquette is projected to be in the NCAA Tournament.

Surely that seems to be an area of improvement from Wojo's first and second seasons of coaching.

You forgot! Everyone here is assuming a 1-4 or 0-5 finish!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 12, 2017, 08:02:14 PM
nm
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 12, 2017, 08:02:33 PM
They'll lose.

Great W for Buzz tonight. Spoke a bit early, but that was a nice win.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
What kind of egomaniac announces he is back with a topic named for himself?

Oh........

x

Dark Glasses is one of the more clever and insightful participants on the board. I welcome his return.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 12, 2017, 08:13:11 PM
Hopefully next season wojo can make a huge jump
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2017, 08:18:42 PM
Yikes man, don't wish dat on 'im. It's only basketball, hey?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:21:44 PM
Hopefully next season wojo can make a huge jump

And The Bronze Beast will develop warmth and compassion.

I'll take that bet...
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Herman Cain on February 12, 2017, 08:48:51 PM
Early on I posted a poll asking if Wojo would be able to exceed Mike Dean's coaching record . I felt Wojo would not . In fact I believe  Mike Dean is a far better game coach than Wojo.

I don' t think Wojo has been a failure though. He has achieved a handful of positive things.  Some good recruits, beat Wisconsin and beat Villanova. Overall I would characterize his results as mediocre plus/ fair minus ish . Given the money we spend and the tradition that is why there is tension.

I don't have faith in Wojo's ability to grow as a coach at a rate faster than the growth of the talent of the team. Hence, we are in this uncomfortable place for the foreseeable future. Wojo has the unconditional love of Lovell and in fact the school is considering the merits of another contraction extension .  So for better or worse he is our coach for a long time and maybe longer.

Let's hope the team has a hot streak in the BET and earns the automatic qualifier.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 09:28:34 PM
What kind of egomaniac announces he is back with a topic named for himself?

Oh........

Brandx

The name says it all.  #StoreBrands
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Eldon on February 12, 2017, 09:30:02 PM
Brand x

Your post made my weekend. I found that to be very, very funny. Plus, it made have more respect for MikeDeannes big time. He just became my kind of egomaniac.

I remember when MDDG first came to Scoop.  Then he disappeared for awhile. 

Then, before reappearing again, he created ANOTHER account, under a different name announcing the eventual return of MDDG.  A few weeks later, MDDG did indeed return as predicted.  It was damn funny.  I love Scoop.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 12, 2017, 09:34:12 PM
I remember when MDDG first came to Scoop.  Then he disappeared for awhile. 

Then, before reappearing again, he created ANOTHER account, under a different name announcing the eventual return of MDDG.  A few weeks later, MDDG did indeed return as predicted.  It was damn funny.  I love Scoop.


I'm pretty sure MDDG is an alter-ego of another poster.  I just don't know who.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: warriorfred on February 12, 2017, 09:38:45 PM
It's the middle of February and Marquette is projected to be in the NCAA Tournament.

Surely that seems to be an area of improvement from Wojo's first and second seasons of coaching.

15-10, 6-7 in the BE.  I doubt "projected" becomes "reality."
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 12, 2017, 09:40:29 PM
Brandx

The name says it all.  #StoreBrands

Welcome back, Glasses. Scoop is a better place with your return. Missed your wry take on Marquette hoops.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: warriorfred on February 12, 2017, 09:43:28 PM
In fairness, Wojo jumped into a smoking crater . . . but I'm not seeing the improvement, and cannot see the core groups of players that will take MU to the next level (e.g McIlvane, Key, Miller, etc. that took O'Neill's team to S16).
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Eldon on February 12, 2017, 10:02:08 PM

I'm pretty sure MDDG is an alter-ego of another poster.  I just don't know who.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/iskSuB1uGWXu/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 12, 2017, 10:07:43 PM
We'll be back.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Anti-Dentite on February 12, 2017, 10:25:59 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/iskSuB1uGWXu/giphy.gif)
That is frightening.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 10:56:54 PM
Early on I posted a poll asking if Wojo would be able to exceed Mike Dean's coaching record . I felt Wojo would not . In fact I believe  Mike Dean is a far better game coach than Wojo.

I don' t think Wojo has been a failure though. He has achieved a handful of positive things.  Some good recruits, beat Wisconsin and beat Villanova. Overall I would characterize his results as mediocre plus/ fair minus ish . Given the money we spend and the tradition that is why there is tension.

I don't have faith in Wojo's ability to grow as a coach at a rate faster than the growth of the talent of the team. Hence, we are in this uncomfortable place for the foreseeable future. Wojo has the unconditional love of Lovell and in fact the school is considering the merits of another contraction extension .  So for better or worse he is our coach for a long time and maybe longer.

Let's hope the team has a hot streak in the BET and earns the automatic qualifier.


Solid post!

Mike Deane was a very good coach.  His issue was recruiting and Wojo seems to be the inverse of that somewhat.  But yes, it seems Wojo has a long leash.  It's as if MU reeks of desperation on some level.  Perhaps that eludes to the internal issues present with Buzz's Bunch and Wojo is an over-correction for that.  Personally, I believe MU wanted to go with a different look, i.e. they didn't want the type of players Buzz brought in no matter how successful they were on the court.  Seems to me MU wanted to go with players that the state could relate to more.  In other words, yes, it has a little bit to do with race.  Wisconsin's players are more relatable to the avg fan in the state and they win.  Even when MU was winning, people still talk about Wisconsin and identify with that team outside of Milwaukee.

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Herman Cain on February 12, 2017, 11:43:00 PM
In a few short minutes Va Tech will be 16-8 (5-7) having lost 3 straight. Best win at home over Duke without Allen. Next best win is Michigan. God awful non con schedule.  Next two games on the road at Pitt and Louisville - could legitimately see them lose 5 straight. Buzz's bunch isn't in much better shape than MU this season.
Va Tech won in double overtime versus UVA. The team is 17-7 and 6-6 in the ACC. Heading to NCAA.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 12, 2017, 11:48:30 PM
Va Tech is in the tourney for sure, unless they go 1 for X all the way leading up to the tourney.  Buzz's brand works.  Question is.......what is Wojo's brand?  Does he even have an identity?  Seems to me he's lost the right to floor slap with the poor coaching job on defense.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: rocket surgeon on February 13, 2017, 05:30:22 AM
Va Tech is in the tourney for sure, unless they go 1 for X all the way leading up to the tourney.  Buzz's brand works.  Question is.......what is Wojo's brand?  Does he even have an identity?  Seems to me he's lost the right to floor slap with the poor coaching job on defense.

i like wojo, but he hasn't recruited the type of player he was at all.  i don't see any "floor slappers here"  he's recruited some mighty fine "basketball players", but now he needs to coach them.  when plan "A"(run n gun) don't work, he has no plan "B".  plan "B" should be to slow it down and get the no footer or foul or...don't just keep gunning cuz if you find yourself shooting, let's say about 9-10% from the arc, you are going to get your bike supporter handed to you every time. 

wojo needs to get a few more experienced old school coaches in there to bring the "basketball players" he has brought here, to the next level
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: FartyEightHours on February 13, 2017, 06:39:26 AM
Like a fart in the wind....


Evolve or die...Wojo has to figure out how to coach defense.  Duke "press" D doesn't work here.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: FartyEightHours on February 13, 2017, 06:40:46 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/xN8Z4ai.gif)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 13, 2017, 07:53:32 AM
Wojo isn't a failure yet. Hopefully it doesn't become a failure.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 09:25:11 AM
Welcome back, Dark One.

You are right ... we are doomed!

Doomed, I say!

Our only chance is to fire Wojo right now ... don't wait till the end of the season. Put Diener in charge. Bring back Wade; he has another year of eligibility, I'm sure.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: augoman on February 13, 2017, 09:31:59 AM
interesting watching Northwestern last night.  Amazing D Collins has installed.  Minus their leading scorer the Wildcats shut down Madison and rendered Haap a non-entity. (save for some typical Kohl center calls at the end NU would have won going away.) Same background as Wojo but Collins seems to have a great feel for game coaching and defense.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenWarrior11 on February 13, 2017, 09:51:50 AM
interesting watching Northwestern last night.  Amazing D Collins has installed.  Minus their leading scorer the Wildcats shut down Madison and rendered Haap a non-entity. (save for some typical Kohl center calls at the end NU would have won going away.) Same background as Wojo but Collins seems to have a great feel for game coaching and defense.

I actually love it when posters point to Collins as a comparative.  Collins, like Wojo - a Coach K/Duke disciple - is in year four of his tenure (Wojo is in year three).  In each of the four years at Northwestern, Collins has improved the team both in terms of skill and talent, but also wins.  14, 15, 20 and now 19 (with surely more to come).  They are a tournament team in year four.  Wojo, like Collins, has improved the team in terms of overall skill and talent and improved the wins from year one to year two.  While we only have 15 wins right now, and looking like we may not reach 20 overall wins, next year will be the true indictment as Wojo as a head coach and program leader. 

With the exception to Duane, next year's team will be entirely composed of kids he recruited and has developed.  There will be no excuses next year if the team cannot compete in the Big East for a tournament spot.  If we are in the same spot next year, then things will get hot - but not right now. 

There's still significant basketball left to be played, including the Big East tournament.  We are fully capable of competing with anyone on any given night.  The name of the game is consistency, and we are struggling with that.  We need to hit a run to close out the year, and I support Wojo, our kids and our program to do that. 

Let's go beat X on Saturday.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Golden Avalanche on February 13, 2017, 10:15:54 AM
Va Tech is in the tourney for sure, unless they go 1 for X all the way leading up to the tourney.  Buzz's brand works.  Question is.......what is Wojo's brand?  Does he even have an identity?  Seems to me he's lost the right to floor slap with the poor coaching job on defense.

Tech played a soft non-conference schedule to puff up record.

Has only won a single road conference game.

Four of their six conference losses have been by 20 points or more.

One of their two marquee wins came against a team missing their best player.

Their conference record is the very definition of average.

Guessing if Wojo had loaded up on cupcakes to ensure only one loss heading into conference only to be blown to bits in all but two of his six conference losses on his way to a .500 record the narrative here would be that he's a failure (like it already is). But since it's Buzz people consider the above a working brand. Strange the way some twist and turn their standards.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 13, 2017, 10:24:19 AM
Virginia Tech is an historically horrid basketball program playing in the country's toughest conference. Buzz or no Buzz, if VPI is our new metric for success/failure we've already lost.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Stretchdeltsig on February 13, 2017, 10:30:00 AM
I grade Wojo a "B" for recruiting and a "C-" for coaching.  Sadly, there is no noticeable improvement in his coaching in three years.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: WarriorFan on February 13, 2017, 10:32:56 AM
Wojo needs 1-2 more years before I pass final judgement on him.  My reason???  If MU starts turning over coaches every 3 years, it'll be viewed as a "problem" destination and good up and coming coaches won't be interested.  We'll get a couple of turds like Dukiet and Deane before we get a KO who starts to turn the program around again. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: manny31 on February 13, 2017, 10:46:03 AM
I have bitched a ton about toughness, since that loss in Providence I think MU has consistently gotten tougher/better. I wish this team was more consistent but they aren't. I think Wojo will work out Scoopers just need to be patient. Comparisons to Buzz are useles in fact most comparisons to other coaches are useless, we got who we got. Next year MU had better be a more consistent and generally better team. I want to see MU being #3 or #4 in the BEast next year. If this isn't the case the size of the Hissy Fit this board will throw will be epic. I think MU squeaks into the tournament this year and Scooper are pleasantly surprised next year.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: RJax55 on February 13, 2017, 10:46:31 AM
I actually love it when posters point to Collins as a comparative.  Collins, like Wojo - a Coach K/Duke disciple - is in year four of his tenure (Wojo is in year three).  In each of the four years at Northwestern, Collins has improved the team both in terms of skill and talent, but also wins.  14, 15, 20 and now 19 (with surely more to come).  They are a tournament team in year four.  Wojo, like Collins, has improved the team in terms of overall skill and talent and improved the wins from year one to year two.  While we only have 15 wins right now, and looking like we may not reach 20 overall wins, next year will be the true indictment as Wojo as a head coach and program leader. 

I'm not sure the Collins compare will end up being favorable for Wojo.

If Collins can deliver a tournament appearance at NU in 4 years, Wojo sure as hell better do so at MU. MU is what, at least 10 times the program NU is. Even throwing out the history and tradition, MU's fan support, facilities and resources blow Northwestern Basketball's out of the water. It would be quite damning for Wojo not to accomplish what Collins has in the same time period.

Also, it wasn't like Collins inherited a good team at NU. The team was bad and filled with guys cut out to play Camody's Princeton offense and 1-3-1 zone defense. Other than Sanjay Lumpkin, he has had to completely rebuild it with his own guys, playing his system. No different than Wojo.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 13, 2017, 11:07:48 AM
RJax55

I agree that it is not time to compare Collins vs. Wojo if you want a happy discussion. Your comments on NU vs. MU are correct and Wojo losses this battle big time, currently.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Hubert Davis on February 13, 2017, 11:30:39 AM
The last time I was on this board, the Warriors were #DoneDeal with Shaka Smart.  To the detriment of many, that was a borderline hoax.  Different names of coaches entered our lexicon.  Finally, there was one........  Wojo.  Excitement spurred through the MU masses due to Wojo's close kinship with Mike K and success.  Wojo had 15 yrs of experience and had recruited some top talent including Milwaukee Bucks own Jabari Parker.  A glimmer of hope shone upon Warrior Nation as Wojo would be the coach to lead us back to the NCAA tournament.  Those hopes were increased as Wojo landed what most other coaches here couldn't:  A blue chip prospect by the name of Henry Ellenson.  The future looked bright, in fact, it looked damn good.

Fast Forward 3 years later and Wojo hasn't delivered.  You could go as far as saying that he's been a huge disappointment.  No post season appearances for MU during Wojo's tenure and this season looks to be in the drain after an embarrassing loss to Georgetown.  By drain, I mean no NCAA tournament appearances.  NIT doesn't cut it for MU, especially for an NCAA program that is top 5 in spending on its basketball team.  Take a further gander south east to our old "friend" Buzz Williams at Virginia Tech.  Buzz has taken a historically bad program, that puts next to zero into its basketball program and is now competitive - much more so than Marquette.

So, what's the issue with Wojo?  Surprisingly, it's simple yet quite dumbfounding.  As a player, Wojo was very defensive minded and a lot to handle on the perimeter when he was at Duke.  This hasn't translated onto any of his teams here at MU.  None have played defense, in fact, they're downright terrible on that side of the ball. Players lose their man, giving up uncontested jumpers and lay ins.  You can find much better defensive teams at the mid major level.  Wojo's teams are a far cry from Buzz's elite defensive, junkyard dog units who would stifle opponents. #Deflections  Wojo is darn right horrendous.  In 3 years at MU he's failed to install a defensive system.  This is unacceptable and will be his undoing at MU.  It's amazing how poorly coached they are on defense.

MU Defensive Rankings vs NCAA Divsion I
Offensive Rebounding- 211th
Defensive Rebounding-218th
Avg Score against - 189th

These stats are abysmal and are those that mediocre mid major teams have.

I understand Wojo was dealt a bad hand here.  MU was in shambles when he arrived.  He's recruited 4 stars, but none to this point have shown much sans Markus Howard.  Heldt is terrible and wouldn't start on many mid major rosters, while Cheatam is solid.  Other than that, Wojo has recruited guards who can shoot, but are undersized.  Secondly, where are all the bigs when it comes to recruiting?  A bunch of undersized 4 star guards won't take you far in a season.  When you look at MU's starting 5 - you see Duke's bench......the ones still in warmups from a physical standpoint.  Yes, he snagged Ellenson which netted Wojo a contract extension but what did that really accomplish?  Short term it was great, but Wojo failed to parlay that move into what matters most - Wins = media hype = recruiting power.   Furthermore, there are other coaches who have done much better who have been dealt similar hands.  Archie Miller from Dayton took a team of basically 6 players to the tourney a few years ago.  Buzz rebuilding Va Tech in the toughest conference, the ACC, and  are jobs well done and signatures of great coaching.

Wojo doesn't have the signature of a great coach.  Often times it seems as if he's barely treading water.  Defense matters most when making an NCAA run, and Wojo hasn't been able to solve that issue in 3 years - posting defensive numbers you find at the mid major level.

Next Coach Up.......

.....The Search Continues.......

GREAT post. SPOT ON. you sheep fans that continue to defend wojo have absolutely nothing to back him up... the FACTS are that Wojo has NOT delivered and has been A HUGE disappointment. Time to cut our losses and go back to the drawing board.....

fire wojo.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 11:43:42 AM
Mr. Al Davis it's nice to meet you.  I'm Deane - slaughterer of sheep.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Hubert Davis on February 13, 2017, 11:56:30 AM
Mr. Al Davis it's nice to meet you.  I'm Deane - slaughterer of sheep.

Nice to meet you, Deane. I have a landfill you could use to dispose of the blind, freshly slaughtered sheep...

Make Marquette great again!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 13, 2017, 12:07:45 PM
Mr. Al Davis it's nice to meet you.  I'm Deane - slaughterer of sheep.

The herd here has thinned considerably. The lack of enthusiasm is palpable.

Thought "leadership" is driven by a few who demand adherence to the party line.

When culling the flock pay particular attention to the dogmatic drones!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 13, 2017, 12:18:50 PM
Keefe

Lack of enthusiasm is real. Since Buzz's last year it has grown IMO. The excitement of getting HE was lost on many (not me) because of unrealistic expectations that he was staying around more than a year. The 'Nova win excitement died awfully quickly. Simply amazing the difference in attitude in less than three weeks.

I have not given up the fight, but definitely a great deal less interested than anytime in my life. Hope the program gets to a high level but as Golden Avalanche has pointed out several times to me that maybe time for a new hobby.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 12:25:32 PM
The herd here has thinned considerably. The lack of enthusiasm is palpable.

Thought "leadership" is driven by a few who demand adherence to the party line.

When culling the flock pay particular attention to the dogmatic drones!

It's nice to be back with you comrade.  Together we shall forge a new empire!
What happened to that hack who posted all the time?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Badgerhater on February 13, 2017, 12:26:07 PM
I live in the Milwaukee area and have seen exactly one MU game in three years.  Before, I would take in 3-4 a year.  I still watch on TV enough to know that MU is not a good team.

It is just not good basketball to watch.  You know that every time when the opponent needs a basket they are going to get one.  Launching threes is only fun basketball when they make them.

Ready for forthcoming replies on how I am a bad and disloyal fan for not accepting the status quo.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 13, 2017, 12:30:06 PM
Badgerhater

I am one step further removed than that. Several of the recent games I changed the channel to watch rerun Shark Tank on CNBC. I have been to four games this year and 100% enjoyed the social experience of halftime and pre/post game fun. The games were fine and glad I went and trying HARD to convince myself to enjoy all the festivities this weekend. For the record, I am still at the convincing stage for the weekend.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 12:32:30 PM
I live in the Milwaukee area and have seen exactly one MU game in three years.  Before, I would take in 3-4 a year.  I still watch on TV enough to know that MU is not a good team.

It is just not good basketball to watch.  You know that every time when the opponent needs a basket they are going to get one.  Launching threes is only fun basketball when they make them.

Ready for forthcoming replies on how I am a bad and disloyal fan for not accepting the status quo.

Golden State without the accuracy and defense - MU FoolsGold

That Villanova win sucked in a lot of people and made them believers.  What was even worse was that some of the players looked like they were about to cry after that victory.  Quite sad and not the hallmark of an up and coming program.  More or less they acted like someone with a credit rating of 550, living paycheck to paycheck, winning the lottery.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 13, 2017, 12:40:39 PM
Deanno

You might not be for everyone one here, but I get a kick out of you. Welcome back.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: WarriorPride68 on February 13, 2017, 12:42:43 PM
In a few short minutes Va Tech will be 16-8 (5-7) having lost 3 straight. Best win at home over Duke without Allen. Next best win is Michigan. God awful non con schedule.  Next two games on the road at Pitt and Louisville - could legitimately see them lose 5 straight. Buzz's bunch isn't in much better shape than MU this season.

They'll lose.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0HlEpN51r48SEZyM/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 13, 2017, 12:43:41 PM
That UVA game was really good..except for VT winning
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 12:44:47 PM
I appreciate it Goose.  My personality by default, weeds out the weakminded so there are benefits to "not appeasing" the masses.  People are afraid of change and being taken out of their comfort zone.  That's what I do.  I embrace the life.  It's who I am.  I am that GE commercial where the New Idea walks in and everyone treats it like trash until the smart person at the end.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 13, 2017, 12:46:52 PM
Deanno

Keep up the battle, it is a good cause. I have ruffled enough feathers over the years and tired of the fight. Good luck, Deanno!!!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 01:00:35 PM
I just find it funny because a few breaks the other way this season, and all these naysayers are firmly on the bandwagon.  Just as they'll be IF MU finds a way into the tournament. 

I get that not everyone likes the current product on the court.  These last five games have been brutal.  I certainly hope we continue to improve both this season, and into the future.  But if you don't spend the time to watch the game on TV, or if you live nearby and have no interest in attending MU games, why spend the time to come on a message board and bad mouth the program?  Don't you have other things to do? 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 01:38:08 PM
I just find it funny because a few breaks the other way this season, and all these naysayers are firmly on the bandwagon.  Just as they'll be IF MU finds a way into the tournament. 

I get that not everyone likes the current product on the court.  These last five games have been brutal.  I certainly hope we continue to improve both this season, and into the future.  But if you don't spend the time to watch the game on TV, or if you live nearby and have no interest in attending MU games, why spend the time to come on a message board and bad mouth the program?  Don't you have other things to do?

A few breaks?  We lost to a crappy Georgetown team by 12.  We got slammed by St. Johns.  No way in hell do I get on the Wojo bandwagon after those inexcusable debacles.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: rocky_warrior on February 13, 2017, 01:44:01 PM
We lost to a crappy Georgetown team by 12.

Your maths are bad.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 01:48:01 PM
Your maths are bad.

My bad..... 

They were down 12 after I injected myself with rohypnol to alleviate the mental anguish.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MUBigDance on February 13, 2017, 01:49:00 PM
Next MU Coach: Jay Wright. Time is right in spring of 2017 as Villanova coffers are empty and anonymous MUScoopers pony up 4million for the back2back national champ coach.

Quoting an ESPN540 source inside the scoop community "...We think we got year 1 covered. Year 2 will take some work but with crowd sourcing and every scooper committing now to going down to the plasma center every two weeks, we'll just about cover it"
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 01:51:06 PM
Next MU Coach: Jay Wright. Time is right in spring of 2017 as Villanova coffers are empty and anonymous MUScoopers pony up 4million for the back2back national champ coach.

Quoting an ESPN540 source inside the scoop community "...We think we got year 1 covered. Year 2 will take some work but with crowd sourcing and every scooper committing now to going down to the plasma center every two weeks, we'll just about cover it"

The coach at Western Kentucky would be a great hire.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 01:55:36 PM
Next MU Coach: Jay Wright. Time is right in spring of 2017 as Villanova coffers are empty and anonymous MUScoopers pony up 4million for the back2back national champ coach.

Quoting an ESPN540 source inside the scoop community "...We think we got year 1 covered. Year 2 will take some work but with crowd sourcing and every scooper committing now to going down to the plasma center every two weeks, we'll just about cover it"

That would be perfect! It only took Jay 4 years to get Nova to the tournament (they were 52-46 his first 3 years) and, before that, only 4 years to have a winning season at Hofstra (31-51 his first 3 years there).

Scoopers would love that. We're very patient.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 02:02:31 PM
A few breaks?  We lost to a crappy Georgetown team by 12.  We got slammed by St. Johns.  No way in hell do I get on the Wojo bandwagon after those inexcusable debacles.

Lol.  Those are two games, both on the road.  You either pay very little attention to college basketball, or you're oblivious as to how hard it is to win on the road in cbb.

And yes, a few breaks go the other way - ie: Katin's shot drops against PC, and we hit the last second shot again Pitt, we're 17-8 and nearing lock territory. Even one of those and we'd be in pretty good shape.  That doesn't even take into consideration the first Butler game we blew a double digit 2H lead, the 2nd Butler game where it was tied with 4 minutes to go, the first Seton Hall game up 3 with a 20 some seconds to go, etc., etc.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 02:05:24 PM
Lol.  Those are two games, both on the road.  You either pay very little attention to college basketball, or you're oblivious as to how hard it is to win on the road in cbb.


C'mon, Jx5 ... everybody knows that no decent team ever loses to an unranked team that hasn't sniffed the NCAAs in years, even on the road.

Y'hear that, Nova?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 02:22:35 PM
Lol.  Those are two games, both on the road.  You either pay very little attention to college basketball, or you're oblivious as to how hard it is to win on the road in cbb.

And yes, a few breaks go the other way - ie: Katin's shot drops against PC, and we hit the last second shot again Pitt, we're 17-8 and nearing lock territory. Even one of those and we'd be in pretty good shape.  That doesn't even take into consideration the first Butler game we blew a double digit 2H lead, the 2nd Butler game where it was tied with 4 minutes to go, the first Seton Hall game up 3 with a 20 some seconds to go, etc., etc.

Your take is about as weak as Matt Heldt in the post.  MU wasn't close in either Georgetown or St. Johns games - both Big East bottom feeders this year.  You're not going to win on the road either with a defense like this Jx5 aka Juan Anderson x 5.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 02:29:47 PM
Your take is about as weak as Matt Heldt in the post.  MU wasn't close in either Georgetown or St. Johns games - both Big East bottom feeders this year.  You're not going to win on the road either with a defense like this Jx5 aka Juan Anderson x 5.

I never said they were competitive in the Georgetown or SJU games.  Those were horrible performances. But two road losses doesn't make a season.  Ya know, like when Nova lost @ Butler and @ Marquette.  Or when Arizona gets blown out by 30 on the road at Oregon.  Or newly annointed #1 Baylor loses by 21 on the road at WV.  Or UNC loses at ACC power house Georgia Tech by 12, and later drops games @ Miami and @ Duke.   Or when Creighton lost by 20 at the same Georgetown club.  Or Seton Hall drops one in NYC to the same SJU club.  Or Purdue drops games at Iowa and at Nebraska, both teams unlikey to make the NIT.

Would you like me to continue? I could do it for awhile.  Winning on the road in CBB is very, very hard - whether you're elite, you're average, or you're bad. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 02:35:04 PM
I never said they were competitive in the Georgetown or SJU games.  Those were horrible performances. But two road losses doesn't make a season.  Ya know, like when Nova lost @ Butler and @ Marquette.  Or when Arizona gets blown out by 30 on the road at Oregon.  Or newly annointed #1 Baylor loses by 21 on the road at WV.  Or UNC loses at ACC power house Georgia Tech by 12, and later drops games @ Miami and @ Duke.   Or when Creighton lost by 20 at the same Georgetown club.  Or Seton Hall drops one in NYC to the same SJU club.  Or Purdue drops games at Iowa and at Nebraska, both teams unlikey to make the NIT.

Would you like me to continue? I could do it for awhile.  Winning on the road in CBB is very, very hard - whether you're elite, you're average, or you're bad.

There's a difference between getting clobbered on the road vs. playing a tight game - especially against inferior opponents who are barely top 100 rpi.  Not to mention, blowing a 15 pt to Wisconsin at home.  This team is only capable of beating top tier opponents by have an "outlier" night where several people are hitting the 3.  More excuses....more of the same.  Do you always give out free passes?  Historically, Wojo is the worst defensive coach in MU history.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 02:39:34 PM
There's a difference between getting clobbered on the road vs. playing a tight game - especially against inferior opponents who are barely top 100 rpi.  Not to mention, blowing a 15 pt to Wisconsin at home.  This team is only capable of beating top tier opponents by have an "outlier" night where several people are hitting the 3.  More excuses....more of the same.  Do you always give out free passes?  Historically, Wojo is the worst defensive coach in MU history.

I am not giving out free passes.  Trust me, I am just as pissed over the last 5 games as you are.  This teams blows defensively.  But I am not going to dismiss their wins as "outliers" and focus only on their tough losses. I will judge and jump to conclusions when the season is over.  For now, there is still a good deal of basketball left to be played and an opportunity to turn a corner. 

Plus, plenty of those losses I just touched on were top 15 teams getting clobbered on the road.  It happens.  But you can continue to ignore the facts.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
The win against Nova was an outlier.  Shooting close to 50% from 3 pt range is an outlier stat in itself which is what makes college basketball great. There's no denying this.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 02:45:47 PM
The win against Nova was an outlier.  Shooting close to 50% from 3 pt range is an outlier stat in itself which is what makes college basketball great. There's no denying this.

But when a team shoots 50% or over from 3 on us that doesn't count?  Got it. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 02:55:31 PM
Show me any team that consistently shoots 50% from 3.  If you don't know this, then you don't know basketball plain and simple. You're on some midmajor, UWM bullsh*t.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: jesmu84 on February 13, 2017, 03:02:40 PM
But when team shot 50% or over from 3 on us that doesn't count?  Got it.

Do you think he knows we average 41.9% from 3?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 13, 2017, 03:03:03 PM
Show me any team that consistently shoots 50% from 3.  If you don't know this, then you don't know basketball plain and simple. You're on some midmajor, UWM bullsh*t.

WTF are you even talking about? 

You dismiss a win when we shoot over 50% from 3, but will rag on MU for a loss when the other team shoots 50% or more from three.  It doesn't work both ways.  Seeing as though prior to our little dryspell, MU was in the top 5 in 3 point shooting percentage in the country, it seems less like an outlier  when MU shoots over 50% from distance than when our opponent does against us. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MUfan12 on February 13, 2017, 03:17:24 PM
You're on some midmajor, UWM bullsh*t.

And if anyone knows mid-major BS, it's the former head coach of Siena, Lamar, and Wagner.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 03:39:44 PM
And if anyone knows mid-major BS, it's the former head coach of Siena, Lamar, and Wagner.

One with more postseason wins than Wojo. 

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 04:13:28 PM
WTF are you even talking about? 

You dismiss a win when we shoot over 50% from 3, but will rag on MU for a loss when the other team shoots 50% or more from three.  It doesn't work both ways.  Seeing as though prior to our little dryspell, MU was in the top 5 in 3 point shooting percentage in the country, it seems less like an outlier  when MU shoots over 50% from distance than when our opponent does against us.

This, of course.

I mean, Providence, which shoots 37% from 3-point range, shot 55% against us ... and won by one point.

But that's not an outlier, right?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 13, 2017, 04:17:02 PM
Early on I posted a poll asking if Wojo would be able to exceed Mike Dean's coaching record . I felt Wojo would not . In fact I believe  Mike Dean is a far better game coach than Wojo.

I don' t think Wojo has been a failure though. He has achieved a handful of positive things.  Some good recruits, beat Wisconsin and beat Villanova. Overall I would characterize his results as mediocre plus/ fair minus ish . Given the money we spend and the tradition that is why there is tension.

I don't have faith in Wojo's ability to grow as a coach at a rate faster than the growth of the talent of the team. Hence, we are in this uncomfortable place for the foreseeable future. Wojo has the unconditional love of Lovell and in fact the school is considering the merits of another contraction extension .  So for better or worse he is our coach for a long time and maybe longer.

Let's hope the team has a hot streak in the BET and earns the automatic qualifier.

Well as I said earlier I blame the administration for selecting unproven coaches. It is amazing we got 2 out of 3 right. They can do what they want but people are already tuning out MU basketball. They can stick there head in the sand and ignore the coaching problem and the attendance will drop, the national recognition will disappear and the school will suffer as students look elsewhere. The world is competitive and if you do not run with the big boys, well you get the picture.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 05:24:52 PM
Well as I said earlier I blame the administration for selecting unproven coaches. It is amazing we got 2 out of 3 right. They can do what they want but people are already tuning out MU basketball. They can stick there head in the sand and ignore the coaching problem and the attendance will drop, the national recognition will disappear and the school will suffer as students look elsewhere. The world is competitive and if you do not run with the big boys, well you get the picture.

Not being snarky at all, just interested in your take:

Which proven coach should they have gotten this time?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: warriorfred on February 13, 2017, 07:50:53 PM
The game theory on Wojo never made sense.  Hire a new coach from Duke (a program with a history of flameout assistant coaches), and there are one of two possibilities:

1.  He actually succeeds, at which point he is hired by Duke to replace an aging Coach K; or
2.  He fails like almost every other assistant coach from Duke.[/li][/list]

Possibility 2 is looking more likely.  I am trying to understand why another year is required?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 13, 2017, 08:00:14 PM
The game theory on Wojo never made sense.  Hire a new coach from Duke (a program with a history of flameout assistant coaches), and there are one of two possibilities:

1.  He actually succeeds, at which point he is hired by Duke to replace an aging Coach K; or
2.  He fails like almost every other assistant coach from Duke.[/li][/list]

Possibility 2 is looking more likely.  I am trying to understand why another year is required?


Almost every assistant from Duke fails to meet expectations because pretty much every coach does.  Really his coaching tree is no different than any other in that regard.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 08:04:27 PM
The game theory on Wojo never made sense.  Hire a new coach from Duke (a program with a history of flameout assistant coaches), and there are one of two possibilities:

1.  He actually succeeds, at which point he is hired by Duke to replace an aging Coach K; or
2.  He fails like almost every other assistant coach from Duke.[/li][/list]

Possibility 2 is looking more likely.  I am trying to understand why another year is required?

Yes, poor long term thinking by MU staff.  What MU needs is stability like Wisconsin acquired with Dick Bennet and parlayed into a perennial basketball program with Bo Ryan.  That's how you build a solid, respectable program.  It takes a good decade.  #Gonzaga
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: warriorfred on February 13, 2017, 08:41:18 PM
    Yes, poor long term thinking by MU staff.  What MU needs is stability like Wisconsin acquired with Dick Bennet and parlayed into a perennial basketball program with Bo Ryan.  That's how you build a solid, respectable program.  It takes a good decade.  #Gonzaga
Agree.  But never thought I would be looking back at Crean and wondering "what if"?[/list]
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 13, 2017, 08:50:10 PM
This, of course.

I mean, Providence, which shoots 37% from 3-point range, shot 55% against us ... and won by one point.

But that's not an outlier, right?

How many times do our opponents have to shoot much better than their norm against for it not to be an outlier?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 13, 2017, 09:16:28 PM
Not being snarky at all, just interested in your take:

Which proven coach should they have gotten this time?

Do we really know who was available? I doubt it. Given the money we throw at this game I would expect we had more choices than were reported. I do not profess to be and expert on basketball coach selection. I, however, do know what it takes to win and it does not include accepting mediocrity, it does not include excuses or scapegoats. It requires passion, total commitment and learning from failure and never, never giving up. This team has given up.

I think if there are leaders for a few thousand dollars  that can lead young men into a battlefield risking their life's we surely can find someone with basketball skills that can lead young men on a basketball court. Find a real leader that knows something about the game and you have a winner. For a few million it should not be too hard. Anyone can learn to teach BB but only leaders can teach a team to win.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 13, 2017, 09:32:33 PM
Do we really know who was available? I doubt it. Given the money we throw at this game I would expect we had more choices than were reported. I do not profess to be and expert on basketball coach selection. I, however, do know what it takes to win and it does not include accepting mediocrity, it does not include excuses or scapegoats. It requires passion, total commitment and learning from failure and never, never giving up. This team has given up.

I think if there are leaders for a few thousand dollars  that can lead young men into a battlefield risking their life's we surely can find someone with basketball skills that can lead young men on a basketball court. Find a real leader that knows something about the game and you have a winner. For a few million it should not be too hard. Anyone can learn to teach BB but only leaders can teach a team to win.


You win today's prize for dropping the most bad sports cliches in one post.  Congrats.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 13, 2017, 09:45:14 PM

You win today's prize for dropping the most bad sports cliches in one post.  Congrats.

They are not cliches if you live by them and show commitment by example. They also apply to life in general. Believe what you want and mock what you do not understand. It is OK because as you mock others someone will be winning but it will not be you.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 13, 2017, 10:19:38 PM
Do we really know who was available? I doubt it. Given the money we throw at this game I would expect we had more choices than were reported. I do not profess to be and expert on basketball coach selection. I, however, do know what it takes to win and it does not include accepting mediocrity, it does not include excuses or scapegoats. It requires passion, total commitment and learning from failure and never, never giving up. This team has given up.

I think if there are leaders for a few thousand dollars  that can lead young men into a battlefield risking their life's we surely can find someone with basketball skills that can lead young men on a basketball court. Find a real leader that knows something about the game and you have a winner. For a few million it should not be too hard. Anyone can learn to teach BB but only leaders can teach a team to win.

Wow.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brandx on February 13, 2017, 10:23:08 PM
Brand x

Your post made my weekend. I found that to be very, very funny. Plus, it made have more respect for MikeDeannes big time. He just became my kind of egomaniac.

Egomaniacs are definitely in vogue right now.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 13, 2017, 10:33:43 PM
Not a failure yet. It won't be. Once we make the tourney this year everyone will be saying "sign him another 5!!"
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 10:43:41 PM
Not a failure yet. It won't be. Once we make the tourney this year everyone will be saying "sign him another 5!!"

You sound like how the MU top brass thinks.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 13, 2017, 11:18:46 PM
Not a failure yet. It won't be. Once we make the tourney this year everyone will be saying "sign him another 5!!"

I won't be. If we make the tourney this year, I do think it buys some goodwill, but considering the weak bubble and the concerning past three weeks, I want to see more than just a trip to Dayton. Finish 10-8 and get in convincingly, win a game or two, then go back next year while landing Joey Hauser, I'll be on board with the extension talk. But if we get in at 9-9 or 8-10 because everyone else lost, while I'll happily take the bid as progress, it won't be the definitive "we're back, baby" statement I think we all felt when we knocked off Villanova.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 13, 2017, 11:56:34 PM
I won't be. If we make the tourney this year, I do think it buys some goodwill, but considering the weak bubble and the concerning past three weeks, I want to see more than just a trip to Dayton. Finish 10-8 and get in convincingly, win a game or two, then go back next year while landing Joey Hauser, I'll be on board with the extension talk. But if we get in at 9-9 or 8-10 because everyone else lost, while I'll happily take the bid as progress, it won't be the definitive "we're back, baby" statement I think we all felt when we knocked off Villanova.

Extension?

Why would you extend someone who's already here until 2021-2022?

Secondly, why would you want to consider extending a coach who's proven nothing?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 14, 2017, 12:44:12 AM
Egomaniacs are definitely in vogue right now.

Biggest one out there is wondering why all the pledges dried up!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 05:49:44 AM
I won't be. If we make the tourney this year, I do think it buys some goodwill, but considering the weak bubble and the concerning past three weeks, I want to see more than just a trip to Dayton. Finish 10-8 and get in convincingly, win a game or two, then go back next year while landing Joey Hauser, I'll be on board with the extension talk. But if we get in at 9-9 or 8-10 because everyone else lost, while I'll happily take the bid as progress, it won't be the definitive "we're back, baby" statement I think we all felt when we knocked off Villanova.

+1000 Exactly how I feel, and have felt. If they just squeak into the tourney because there really aren't any other teams to take, that shows me nothing. After the Nova win, they should have cruised into it, and in fact, at this point we should be discussing their seed and how high it could go rather then wondering if they will even get in.

brew, I'm impressed, you sure have done a 180 on how you felt about Wojo and the state of the program just a week or two ago. :) I'd love to have your optimistic outlook on things as well, but I have just never "felt it" with Wojo. I wish I could feel differently.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: ATWizJr on February 14, 2017, 06:46:10 AM
Biggest one out there is wondering why all the pledges dried up!

Biggest two.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: ATWizJr on February 14, 2017, 06:47:23 AM
We all got as much of a shot at fookin' Kate Upton as Steve has in coachin' Duke, ai na?

There's always room for a good assistant.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 14, 2017, 07:04:41 AM
brew, I'm impressed, you sure have done a 180 on how you felt about Wojo and the state of the program just a week or two ago. :) I'd love to have your optimistic outlook on things as well, but I have just never "felt it" with Wojo. I wish I could feel differently.

I still see the path and still see what Wojo wants to do, but the past 5 games have been concerning. My preseason expectations haven't changed. This season we should make at least the NIT to show clear progress, with the NCAA bid being the desired goal. We had a clear path to a bid and now are sliding from that.

In 2010 and 2011, we had two stretches (one each season) where we lost 5 of 7 games and had serious questions about if we'd make the tournament. In 2012 we lost 4 of 6 and had similar concerns, though were never in quite as much danger as this year. In 2014, we lost our last 4 straight and crashed out. Buzz is remembered fondly because he won in March, but I think many forget how real the Team Bubble Watch thing was and that most years under him, we had major downturns that had the fanbase concerned and wondering if we were on the right path.

My hope is that in 5 years, we'll look back at 2017 as Wojo's first of 6 straight bids and laugh about how people were talking about firing him. But it's on him to prove that he deserves that time and that he can get this team over the hump, especially as it has morphed more and more into what he wants a Wojo team to look like.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 14, 2017, 07:33:28 AM
I won't be. If we make the tourney this year, I do think it buys some goodwill, but considering the weak bubble and the concerning past three weeks, I want to see more than just a trip to Dayton. Finish 10-8 and get in convincingly, win a game or two, then go back next year while landing Joey Hauser, I'll be on board with the extension talk. But if we get in at 9-9 or 8-10 because everyone else lost, while I'll happily take the bid as progress, it won't be the definitive "we're back, baby" statement I think we all felt when we knocked off Villanova.
Everyone here just wants to make the tourney, but i agree with you
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: bilsu on February 14, 2017, 07:36:21 AM
I see the NIT bid as part of the building process. I really have trouble with the posters that say that MU should turn down NIT or I will not watch them if they are the NIT. These people are not true fans. I will watch MU anytime they play and have done so for over 50 years. I agree the goal should be the NCAA  tournament. Actually, I believe MU should always be playing in at least the 2nd round (32 teams).  Last year Creighton made the NIT and won some games. That is valuable experience for them and will be for us if we can do that this year.

As far as Wojo I hated him as a player and was not happy when he was hired. I like him more now than I did the day he was hired. I did not agree with MU extending his contract at the time they did it, but I believe MU should honor the contract. MU would just replace him with another unproven coach, so you are really replacing a coach that is on a slow improving path with someone that has a 50% chance of being worse.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 14, 2017, 07:57:19 AM
I see the NIT bid as part of the building process. I really have trouble with the posters that say that MU should turn down NIT or I will not watch them if they are the NIT. These people are not true fans. I will watch MU anytime they play and have done so for over 50 years. I agree the goal should be the NCAA  tournament. Actually, I believe MU should always be playing in at least the 2nd round (32 teams).  Last year Creighton made the NIT and won some games. That is valuable experience for them and will be for us if we can do that this year.

As far as Wojo I hated him as a player and was not happy when he was hired. I like him more now than I did the day he was hired. I did not agree with MU extending his contract at the time they did it, but I believe MU should honor the contract. MU would just replace him with another unproven coach, so you are really replacing a coach that is on a slow improving path with someone that has a 50% chance of being worse.

I wasn't against Wojo at the start, but otherwise agree completely with this. NIT wouldn't be the progress we want, but it'd be progress over last year. And my hope is always to watch more Marquette basketball, be in in the NCAA, NIT, or Vegas 4/8/16. I also don't see the point of going with another unproven coach. Getting rid of Wojo and replacing him with a young guy like Kevin Keatts, a retread like Steve Lavin, or an assistant like Dwayne Stephens would all be disappointing to me because I don't think any would give reason to actually think they're better. Unless it's a clear, home run hire (don't even know who that would be) I say stick it out and hope that Wojo's vision works out in the next 2-1/2 seasons.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 09:07:30 AM
I'll get crushed for saying this but oh well..i'd LOVE to see TC come back if he were let go at IU. He'd bring the program back.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on February 14, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
I'll get crushed for saying this but oh well..i'd LOVE to see TC come back if he were let go at IU. He'd bring the program back.
I didn't read the whole sentence at first and I thought you meant traci carter lol
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 09:24:57 AM
They are not cliches if you live by them and show commitment by example. They also apply to life in general. Believe what you want and mock what you do not understand. It is OK because as you mock others someone will be winning but it will not be you.


OK dude.

If you want to live your life by cliches that any two-bit motivational speaker can spew out as long as the check doesn't bounce, that's fine by me.  But really that's all they are.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 09:25:52 AM


In 2010 and 2011, we had two stretches (one each season) where we lost 5 of 7 games and had serious questions about if we'd make the tournament. In 2012 we lost 4 of 6 and had similar concerns, though were never in quite as much danger as this year. In 2014, we lost our last 4 straight and crashed out. Buzz is remembered fondly because he won in March, but I think many forget how real the Team Bubble Watch thing was and that most years under him, we had major downturns that had the fanbase concerned and wondering if we were on the right path.



Cherry picking to create a false impression. The fans who were "concerned and wondering if we were on the right path" in Buzz's first 5 years were idiotic. He won 60 of 90 Big East games, went to 5 straight NCAAs with a 6 or higher seed 4 times, won 8 tournament games, a conference title and advanced to the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once. Some of the same idiots may be resurfacing now, but comparing the two eras is absurd. And when you say that in 2012, when we finished 27-8, 14-4 with a #3 seed we were never in "quite as much danger as this year" (at 15-10, 6-7) it's the understatement to end all understatements. I hope you're right and that Wojo rights the ship - and it's all seashells and balloons from here on out. But while I'm wishing and hoping I won't confuse it with reality.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 14, 2017, 09:31:43 AM
Cherry picking to create a false impression. The fans who were "concerned and wondering if we were on the right path" in Buzz's first 5 years were idiotic. He won 60 of 90 Big East games, went to 5 straight NCAAs with a 6 or higher seed 4 times, won 8 tournament games, a conference title and advanced to the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once. Some of the same idiots may be resurfacing now, but comparing the two eras is absurd. And when you say that in 2012, when we finished 27-8, 14-4 with a #3 seed we were never in "quite as much danger as this year" (at 15-10, 6-7) it's the understatement to end all understatements. I hope you're right and that Wojo rights the ship - and it's all seashells and balloons from here on out. But while I'm wishing and hoping I won't confuse it with reality.

Half of Buzz's seasons, MU was a legit bubble team.  09-10, 10-11, and 13-14 were all teams that were back end tourney teams, or missed all together (Buzz's last year).  Marquette ended up as a 6 seed in 2011, but that team lost every game of substance in the non-con, and started BE play 6-7 (sound familiar?).  That squad eneded up 9-9 in the BE, but got a 6 seed because it was the greatest conference ever assembled. I can guarantee you blow hards around here though MU was dead in the water at 6-7. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 09:39:07 AM
Cherry picking to create a false impression. The fans who were "concerned and wondering if we were on the right path" in Buzz's first 5 years were idiotic. He won 60 of 90 Big East games, went to 5 straight NCAAs with a 6 or higher seed 4 times, won 8 tournament games, a conference title and advanced to the S16 twice and the Elite 8 once. Some of the same idiots may be resurfacing now, but comparing the two eras is absurd. And when you say that in 2012, when we finished 27-8, 14-4 with a #3 seed we were never in "quite as much danger as this year" (at 15-10, 6-7) it's the understatement to end all understatements. I hope you're right and that Wojo rights the ship - and it's all seashells and balloons from here on out. But while I'm wishing and hoping I won't confuse it with reality.


In February 2011 we lost a home game to St. John's in late February.  There were plenty of questions raised at that time about how good a coach Buzz was and if he could coach defense.  If Scoop had a better search function, I could dig up plenty of posts that would say that.

We went on to make the NCAA tournament and the S16 after upsetting Syracuse in the Round of 32.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on February 14, 2017, 09:40:51 AM
+1000 Exactly how I feel, and have felt. If they just squeak into the tourney because there really aren't any other teams to take, that shows me nothing. After the Nova win, they should have cruised into it, and in fact, at this point we should be discussing their seed and how high it could go rather then wondering if they will even get in.

brew, I'm impressed, you sure have done a 180 on how you felt about Wojo and the state of the program just a week or two ago. :) I'd love to have your optimistic outlook on things as well, but I have just never "felt it" with Wojo. I wish I could feel differently.

guru, whats your honest to god, gut feeling? Did this team under-peform the past 3 weeks, or did they just get lucky as h3ll against creighton and Nova?

I think its the latter, and the nova game exposed us.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: willie warrior on February 14, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Extension?

Why would you extend someone who's already here until 2021-2022?

Secondly, why would you want to consider extending a coach who's proven nothing?
Because that is how mu rolls, baby!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 14, 2017, 10:03:38 AM
Half of Buzz's seasons, MU was a legit bubble team.  09-10, 10-11, and 13-14 were all teams that were back end tourney teams, or missed all together (Buzz's last year).  Marquette ended up as a 6 seed in 2011, but that team lost every game of substance in the non-con, and started BE play 6-7 (sound familiar?).  That squad eneded up 9-9 in the BE, but got a 6 seed because it was the greatest conference ever assembled. I can guarantee you blow hards around here though MU was dead in the water at 6-7.

I know what you are saying, but we are in a whole new territory right now. Here are the Ken Poms for buzz starting with 08/09..19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68

These were all really good teams regardless of the press from Lunardi - conversely if you feel Lunardi chatter is proper, it shows how far we have to go....this is our best year and we are at 42 KenPom....hopefully we win down the stretch to turn that around.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 10:09:37 AM
I know what you are saying, but we are in a whole new territory right now. Here are the Ken Poms for buzz starting with 08/09..19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68

These were all really good teams regardless of the press from Lunardi - conversely if you feel Lunardi chatter is proper, it shows how far we have to go....this is our best year and we are at 42 KenPom....hopefully we win down the stretch to turn that around.


But weren't those the final rankings after the tournament?  Or was it pre-tournament?

I would like to know what our ranking was at around this time in February 2011. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 14, 2017, 10:10:58 AM
I know what you are saying, but we are in a whole new territory right now. Here are the Ken Poms for buzz starting with 08/09..19, 24, 26, 18, 26, 68

These were all really good teams regardless of the press from Lunardi - conversely if you feel Lunardi chatter is proper, it shows how far we have to go....this is our best year and we are at 42 KenPom....hopefully we win down the stretch to turn that around.

I don't disagree that these teams are different than Buzz's squads. As tough as the BE is this year, the BE conference in Buzz's first 5 years wasn't even fair.  Those teams were better. 

We were also right around 30 in Kenpom a week ago. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 14, 2017, 10:16:49 AM
Both final rankings - so flawed to the extent that the Buzz teams won the games they needed to win to improve their final ranking. 

I agree we were at 30 a week ago....the issue is the converse of what I said about the old teams.

Look - at the end of the day my point is if we thought we were having heart-attacks back then about 'team bubble watch' - they were different times and on a different spectrum.

We play competitively over the next 5 games and this debate lowers to a different decibel   

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 14, 2017, 10:23:51 AM

OK dude.

If you want to live your life by cliches that any two-bit motivational speaker can spew out as long as the check doesn't bounce, that's fine by me.  But really that's all they are.

Apparently you have had a difficult time. That is regretable. I wish you all the best. Sure we do not always win, sometimes it feels like we never win but in reality there are only four alternatives 1) give up, 2) go through the motions, 3) give it your best or 4) cheat. The outcome maybe the same but you do control the choice. Different people choose different courses. Choose what you wish. I only find three acceptable for me and I assume four is unacceptable to most so that does not leave many other options.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 10:24:33 AM

In February 2011 we lost a home game to St. John's in late February.  There were plenty of questions raised at that time about how good a coach Buzz was and if he could coach defense.  If Scoop had a better search function, I could dig up plenty of posts that would say that.

We went on to make the NCAA tournament and the S16 after upsetting Syracuse in the Round of 32.

Sultan - I'm not saying there weren't games here and there where even normal fans questioned Buzz and his abilities. That's fair and it goes with the territory. But, in general, except for the perennially pissed off, Scoop was (for good reason) a more optimistic place back then.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: g0lden3agle on February 14, 2017, 10:37:21 AM

But weren't those the final rankings after the tournament?  Or was it pre-tournament?

I would like to know what our ranking was at around this time in February 2011.

As far as I can tell KenPom has only started logging game to game changes in a team's ranking since 2011:

Year           11-Feb                Final
2017   35 (42 after loss)       ???
2016   104                            97
2015   109                            93
2014   57 (49 after win)        68
2013   28 (30 after loss)       26
2012   21 ( 20 after win)       18
2011   27                              26
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 10:41:46 AM
As far as I can tell KenPom has only started logging game to game changes in a team's ranking since 2011:

Year           11-Feb                Final
2017   35 (42 after loss)       ???
2016   104                            97
2015   109                            93
2014   57 (49 after win)        68
2013   28 (30 after loss)       26
2012   21 ( 20 after win)       18
2011   27                              26



OK thank you.  Nevermind my theory then.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 14, 2017, 10:42:32 AM
I would like to know what our ranking was at around this time in February 2011.

After the St. John's loss, we fell to #33 in Pomeroy.

As far as Scoop then, there was both criticism of Buzz and those that supported him. I supported him, and also support Wojo.

I think what's happened is Scoop has become reactionary to what Buzz left us with. When he took over, we had the quality remnants Crean left. It made for an easier transition, and Buzz did a great job getting into the 2010 tournament. From there, he patched together JUCOs and kept us rolling. There was no letdown.

We were optimistic because we were riding a wave of success. Buzz never had to rebuild, he just sustained. However he didn't leave us in the same state Crean did.

Wojo came to a program on the heels of missing the tournament. We didn't have the Amigos and Lazar as upperclassmen, we had Derrick, Steve, and Juan. It was a disaster, and despite improvement the year after we still got on a three year NCAA-less streak.

The pessimism here comes from years of coming up short. We finally get some optimism (Creighton & Nova) only for the comedown and instead of reacting in a sane, "respect the process" manner like many did during the Buzz years while riding that wave of success, we get the negativity that lack of success breeds.

Buzz's 2011 defense may not have been this bad, but it was his worst ranking at Marquette. And that was with five of the six top players in terms of minutes going on to play in the NBA, and four of those five were upperclassmen.

In terms of how these coaches started, Buzz was hired on third base with the bases loaded and a .400 hitter at the plate facing a 3-0 count. Wojo was hired in the hole with 2 outs and the pitcher in the batters box ahead of him. Buzz made the most of his situation and was able to sustain that success, but he was also the reason the bottom fell out and Wojo is where he is now. Maybe Wojo equals or exceeds Buzz's success, maybe he never gets there, but I think he deserves the chance regardless.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 14, 2017, 10:55:58 AM
I'll get crushed for saying this but oh well..i'd LOVE to see TC come back if he were let go at IU. He'd bring the program back.


Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 11:13:35 AM
For fun, I went back and looked at all of the coaching changes in 2014 and 2015 to see if anyone else hired may have been an obviously better choice for Marquette.  Not sure I see one.  Some observations...

2014:

Cuonzo Martin:  This could end up being the choice Marquette should have made.  Was in the NCAAs last year and is a 10th seed this year based on Bracket Matrix.  We will see if he can sustain it.

Bruce Pearl:  Zero chance Marquette would have looked at him.  He hasn't been tearing it up yet at Auburn.


2015:

Steve Prohm:  Doing well at Iowa State, but is it based on Hoiberg's leftovers?  What will happen into the future.

Will Wade:  Shaka's former assistant at VCU is doing well back there after a good couple years at Chattanooga.  At what point do we attribute VCU's success to VCU though given what has happened to Grant and Capel and considering Shaka isn't really off to a great start at Texas?

Bob Hurley:  Year two at ASU and sub-.500 both years.

Rick Barnes:  Probably not a realistic choice for MU.  Solid coach.

Ben Howland:  Brought up before.  Good coach but long term fit?  Pretty mediocre for MSU.

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 11:50:46 AM

In terms of how these coaches started, Buzz was hired on third base with the bases loaded and a .400 hitter at the plate facing a 3-0 count. Wojo was hired in the hole with 2 outs and the pitcher in the batters box ahead of him. Buzz made the most of his situation and was able to sustain that success, but he was also the reason the bottom fell out and Wojo is where he is now. Maybe Wojo equals or exceeds Buzz's success, maybe he never gets there, but I think he deserves the chance regardless.

Over the top hyperbole regarding year one.

From year two on, garden variety total BS. In year two  Buzz had one starter and two reserves leftover from Crean. In year three he had nobody - IOW, a total rebuild. In year two, Wojo had Duane, JJJ and Luke. Still has them in year three. So year two was similar and year three Wojo had much more left over. The facts may not be happy/pleasant but they are the facts.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Marcus92 on February 14, 2017, 12:05:13 PM
I actually love it when posters point to Collins as a comparative.  Collins, like Wojo - a Coach K/Duke disciple - is in year four of his tenure (Wojo is in year three).  In each of the four years at Northwestern, Collins has improved the team both in terms of skill and talent, but also wins.  14, 15, 20 and now 19 (with surely more to come).  They are a tournament team in year four.  Wojo, like Collins, has improved the team in terms of overall skill and talent and improved the wins from year one to year two.  While we only have 15 wins right now, and looking like we may not reach 20 overall wins, next year will be the true indictment as Wojo as a head coach and program leader. 

With the exception to Duane, next year's team will be entirely composed of kids he recruited and has developed.  There will be no excuses next year if the team cannot compete in the Big East for a tournament spot.  If we are in the same spot next year, then things will get hot - but not right now. 

There's still significant basketball left to be played, including the Big East tournament.  We are fully capable of competing with anyone on any given night.  The name of the game is consistency, and we are struggling with that.  We need to hit a run to close out the year, and I support Wojo, our kids and our program to do that. 

Let's go beat X on Saturday.

I had the exact same thought on the comparison to Collins — who's was 20-34 in Big Ten play and didn't make the postseason in his first three seasons, but is now fielding one of the best teams in the conference.

Until a coach has proven they can succeed at the highest level, a lot of fans assume they can't. Progress over time is meaningless, an excuse. Results right now are all that matter.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
guru, whats your honest to god, gut feeling? Did this team under-peform the past 3 weeks, or did they just get lucky as h3ll against creighton and Nova?

I think its the latter, and the nova game exposed us.

Look..the reality is..after Nova they played Providence at home and SJU..two games they absolutely should have won. Period. They had NEVER lost to PC in Milwaukee and that was with worse MU teams and much better PC teams. Regardless of how this season ends..i will still look back at that PC game and go WTF? You lost..to Providence at home? When that happened i knew they might be in some trouble.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Badgerhater on February 14, 2017, 12:12:12 PM
Look..the reality is..after Nova they played Providence at home and SJU..two games they absolutely should have won. Period. They had NEVER lost to PC in Milwaukee and that was with worse MU teams and much better PC teams. Regardless of how this season ends..i will still look back at that PC game and go WTF? You lost..to Providence at home? When that happened i knew they might be in some trouble.

The only loss worse at home to Providence is any loss to DePaul.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Golden Avalanche on February 14, 2017, 12:12:54 PM
Look..the reality is..after Nova they played Providence at home and SJU..two games they absolutely should have won. Period. They had NEVER lost to PC in Milwaukee and that was with worse MU teams and much better PC teams. Regardless of how this season ends..i will still look back at that PC game and go WTF? You lost..to Providence at home? When that happened i knew they might be in some trouble.

Jerry Palm of CBS Sports has PC projected in the Tournament as of yesterday (2/13).

Is it that much of a "WTF?" to lose to a projected NCAA Tournament team at home? I mean, surely losing to a PC team that one "bracketologist" thinks is worthy of a berth is better then our typical "WTF?" loss against DePaul?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 12:16:36 PM
Jerry Palm of CBS Sports has PC projected in the Tournament as of yesterday (2/13).

Is it that much of a "WTF?" to lose to a projected NCAA Tournament team at home? I mean, surely losing to a PC team that one "bracketologist" thinks is worthy of a berth is better then our typical "WTF?" loss against DePaul?

Not much better...DuhPaul, PC..Not much difference to me.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 12:24:03 PM
Not much better...DuhPaul, PC..Not much difference to me.


???  Providence is 60 in KenPom.  Depaul is 191.

There is a significant difference.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Badgerhater on February 14, 2017, 12:29:13 PM

???  Providence is 60 in KenPom.  Depaul is 191.

There is a significant difference.

The difference is that losing to PC with a KenPom 60 at the DonutHole is not a horrible loss.  Losing to them at home when they are tied for second to last in the conference is a bad loss.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 12:37:01 PM
The difference is that losing to PC with a KenPom 60 at the DonutHole is not a horrible loss.  Losing to them at home when they are tied for second to last in the conference is a bad loss.


I'm not saying it wasn't a bad loss, but it is much more understandable than losing to DePaul would be.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Golden Avalanche on February 14, 2017, 01:20:00 PM
Not much better...DuhPaul, PC..Not much difference to me.

You find no difference losing to a team that is in NCAA Tournament consideration then losing to a team that is 1-12 in the conference?

It's that simple, huh? A loss is a loss, no matter the level of competition.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 14, 2017, 02:04:18 PM
In year two  Buzz had one starter and two reserves leftover from Crean. In year three he had nobody - IOW, a total rebuild. In year two, Wojo had Duane, JJJ and Luke. Still has them in year three. So year two was similar and year three Wojo had much more left over. The facts may not be happy/pleasant but they are the facts.

Don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think you can call something a total rebuild when you have two years to prepare for it.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: EaglesNest on February 14, 2017, 02:11:25 PM
For fun, I went back and looked at all of the coaching changes in 2014 and 2015 to see if anyone else hired may have been an obviously better choice for Marquette.  Not sure I see one.  Some observations...

2014:

Cuonzo Martin:  This could end up being the choice Marquette should have made.  Was in the NCAAs last year and is a 10th seed this year based on Bracket Matrix.  We will see if he can sustain it.

Bruce Pearl:  Zero chance Marquette would have looked at him.  He hasn't been tearing it up yet at Auburn.


2015:

Steve Prohm:  Doing well at Iowa State, but is it based on Hoiberg's leftovers?  What will happen into the future.

Will Wade:  Shaka's former assistant at VCU is doing well back there after a good couple years at Chattanooga.  At what point do we attribute VCU's success to VCU though given what has happened to Grant and Capel and considering Shaka isn't really off to a great start at Texas?

Bob Hurley:  Year two at ASU and sub-.500 both years.

Rick Barnes:  Probably not a realistic choice for MU.  Solid coach.

Ben Howland:  Brought up before.  Good coach but long term fit?  Pretty mediocre for MSU.

Cuonzo Martin had a great recruiting class last year and almost got Swanigan on top of it.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 02:15:00 PM
I still think if you let it be known you're willing to make someone one of CBB's highest paid coaches..you'd get interest in the MU job from names you may not have thought possible. Money talks.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 02:15:46 PM
Don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think you can call something a total rebuild when you have two years to prepare for it.

??? So Wojo's in total rebuild mode in year three with two starters and a key reserve as holdovers but Buzz wasn't because he had two years to prepare for it? Hasn't Wojo also had two years to prepare?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: EaglesNest on February 14, 2017, 02:16:38 PM
I'm interested to see if Archie Miller leaves Dayton at the end of the season.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 14, 2017, 02:20:28 PM
Madtown

Is that you?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 02:20:37 PM
??? So Wojo's in total rebuild mode in year three with two starters and a key reserve as holdovers but Buzz wasn't because he had two years to prepare for it? Hasn't Wojo also had two years to prepare?


I might be missing something, but who said that Wojo's in "total rebuild mode" this year?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 02:36:44 PM

I might be missing something, but who said that Wojo's in "total rebuild mode" this year?

Many here are still excusing the product by saying we're still in a rebuilding phase.

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brandx on February 14, 2017, 02:40:00 PM
Many here are still excusing the product by saying we're still in a rebuilding phase.

We are. Next year will be the 1st season that Wojo has his guys.

Then it will be time to hold him accountable.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 02:41:32 PM
Many here are still excusing the product by saying we're still in a rebuilding phase.


Wojo is still in the process of building the program.  Some thing we should be further along than we are.

But "total rebuild mode?"  No one has said that.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: brewcity77 on February 14, 2017, 02:43:06 PM
I still think if you let it be known you're willing to make someone one of CBB's highest paid coaches..you'd get interest in the MU job from names you may not have thought possible. Money talks.

I don't think Marquette can afford that.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 14, 2017, 03:12:15 PM
??? So Wojo's in total rebuild mode in year three with two starters and a key reserve as holdovers but Buzz wasn't because he had two years to prepare for it? Hasn't Wojo also had two years to prepare?

Again, I didn't disagree. I just think a coach starting from a strong position and having to replace talent is different than a coach starting from a weak position and having to build talent. I'm not saying one is harder than the other. I just wouldn't call them the same thing.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 14, 2017, 03:23:32 PM
I still think if you let it be known you're willing to make someone one of CBB's highest paid coaches..you'd get interest in the MU job from names you may not have thought possible. Money talks.


Hasn't been da case in da past, ai na?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2017, 03:57:42 PM
Again, I didn't disagree. I just think a coach starting from a strong position and having to replace talent is different than a coach starting from a weak position and having to build talent. I'm not saying one is harder than the other. I just wouldn't call them the same thing.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 14, 2017, 04:28:15 PM

Hasn't been da case in da past, ai na?

Does that mean if we pay more we do no better? If that is the case are we overpaying or did we hit the optimal point? That is, Wojo is the best that MU can do? Do we believe that or are we afraid of the risk associated with change? Thoughts?

I admit I do not know but if this is the best we can do this trip is not going to be fun.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 04:48:12 PM
I don't think Marquette can afford that.

It has been said by many that would know, $$$ is no object for MU in paying a Coach.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 14, 2017, 05:02:26 PM
It has been said by many that would know, $$$ is no object for MU in paying a Coach.


That simply isn't true.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Bocephys on February 14, 2017, 05:10:29 PM
It has been said by many that would know, $$$ is no object for MU in paying a Coach.

Was that before or after we alienated Dick Strong by not including him in the Wojo hire?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 05:13:15 PM
Was that before or after we alienated Dick Strong by not including him in the Wojo hire?

Now that is a good question..pretty sure it was before, but still may be the case..MU has plenty of wealthy donors...the question is, how do they perceive the program and it's trajectory right now?? I'd love to hear that answer.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 14, 2017, 05:21:22 PM
It has been said by many that would know, $$$ is no object for MU in paying a Coach.

Every school has a "top price" it's willing to pay. I'm guessing Shaka had to be pretty high up there in our top-price zone.

I'm trying to figure out how Scoop would have reacted if MU had paid top dollar for a guy to lead us to a 10-15 record in Year 2. Probably nice and calm and content, eh?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 14, 2017, 06:17:47 PM
Every school has a "top price" it's willing to pay. I'm guessing Shaka had to be pretty high up there in our top-price zone.

I'm trying to figure out how Scoop would have reacted if MU had paid top dollar for a guy to lead us to a 10-15 record in Year 2. Probably nice and calm and content, eh?

This is obsession may be bordering on ners/chicos levels
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 14, 2017, 06:30:15 PM
Every school has a "top price" it's willing to pay. I'm guessing Shaka had to be pretty high up there in our top-price zone.

I'm trying to figure out how Scoop would have reacted if MU had paid top dollar for a guy to lead us to a 10-15 record in Year 2. Probably nice and calm and content, eh?

Rip on Shaka all you want, but you seem to forget he took UT to the dance his first year there, when not many expected them to go. I can also guarantee you if he were at MU, this team WOULD be playing defense...and an exciting brand of it as well.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 14, 2017, 09:01:52 PM
Rip on Shaka all you want, but you seem to forget he took UT to the dance his first year there, when not many expected them to go. I can also guarantee you if he were at MU, this team WOULD be playing defense...and an exciting brand of it as well.

Who didn't expect Texas to go? They were picked preseason to finish 4th in a conference that traditionally sends 7 or 8 teams to the dance every year.

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=210420591
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 14, 2017, 10:37:11 PM
Rip on Shaka all you want, but you seem to forget he took UT to the dance his first year there, when not many expected them to go. I can also guarantee you if he were at MU, this team WOULD be playing defense...and an exciting brand of it as well.

Ha! Texas was one of the conference favorites! They moderately underachieved last season, and they are a laughingstock this year.

I have already said many times that I wish things had worked out for Shaka to be at Marquette. But folks who think it would have been some kind of guarantee that he would quickly bring us back from the disaster Buzz left ... please.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on February 14, 2017, 10:45:24 PM
It's surprising Shaka hasn't made waves at Texas.  Texas should be one of the best spots to recruit for basketball. Shaka is venturing down the path of Tom Crean......where he had it better at the smaller, less prominent school.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: MU82 on February 14, 2017, 10:50:21 PM
It's surprising Shaka hasn't made waves at Texas.  Texas should be one of the best spots to recruit for basketball. Shaka is venturing down the path of Tom Crean......where he had it better at the smaller, less prominent school.

So far, anyway.

Texas blew a lead and fell tonight to a bad Oklahoma team that just lost its best player to injury and entered the game on a 7-game losing streak. Shaka's lads are now 10-16.

Speaking of Oklahoma ... there's a coach who wins everywhere he goes: Lon Kruger. And he'll go anywhere and everywhere, especially to a school that shows him the money! Just don't expect him to stick around for more than 11 minutes.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: tower912 on February 17, 2017, 06:16:14 AM
A thread on the scout board......  The BOT is satisfied with Wojo.    They were put off by the off court attention that occurred under Buzz.    They are pleased that Wojo is bringing in players who, so far, are of high character and are willing to give him several more years to build the program.    So, rant, rave, curse, scheme, whatever.     The powers-that-be wanted the anti-Buzz, believe they have him, and are not in a hurry.   
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Newsdreams on February 17, 2017, 07:25:49 AM
A thread on the scout board......  The BOT is satisfied with Wojo.    They were put off by the off court attention that occurred under Buzz.    They are pleased that Wojo is bringing in players who, so far, are of high character and are willing to give him several more years to build the program.    So, rant, rave, curse, scheme, whatever.     The powers-that-be wanted the anti-Buzz, believe they have him, and are not in a hurry.
#fakenews lies from failing scout board
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 17, 2017, 07:29:19 AM
#fakenews lies from failing scout board



So does this mean I have to buy one of Dodds' premium memberships like I just did the New York Times?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Newsdreams on February 17, 2017, 07:48:04 AM

So does this mean I have to buy one of Dodds' premium memberships like I just did the New York Times?
subscription from failing NYT what a loser
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: vogue65 on February 17, 2017, 07:59:41 AM
Now that is a good question..pretty sure it was before, but still may be the case..MU has plenty of wealthy donors...the question is, how do they perceive the program and it's trajectory right now?? I'd love to hear that answer.

This is on track.  The selection by the BOT was based on image, style and P.R..  Winning and cost were not high on the selection criteria.   More consideration was given to being representative than a win at all or nearly all cost.

I  understand that thinking that a decision can be based on anything besides money and trophies is a serious paradyme shift. 

What we were is not what we are, change is difficult.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Newsdreams on February 17, 2017, 08:13:28 AM
This is on track.  The selection by the BOT was based on image, style and P.R..  Winning and cost were not high on the selection criteria.   More consideration was given to being representative than a win at all or nearly all cost.

I  understand that thinking that a decision can be based on anything besides money and trophies is a serious paradyme shift. 

What we were is not what we are, change is difficult.
Yeah because Doc Rivers has no clue about coaching.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: vogue65 on February 17, 2017, 08:48:16 AM
Yeah because Doc Rivers has no clue about coaching.

Have to run, last time, Wojoe is a great coach, the problem is risk/reward, the university does not want to take the risk one needs to take to be competative in the BE or high level intercolegete basketball.  That does not make them bad or wrong it just makes them conservative.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 08:52:16 AM
Have to run, last time, Wojoe is a great coach, the problem is risk/reward, the university does not want to take the risk one needs to take to be competative in the BE or high level intercolegete basketball.  That does not make them bad or wrong it just makes them conservative.

What risk is the university unwilling to take?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 17, 2017, 08:53:58 AM
This is on track.  The selection by the BOT was based on image, style and P.R..  Winning and cost were not high on the selection criteria.   More consideration was given to being representative than a win at all or nearly all cost.

I  understand that thinking that a decision can be based on anything besides money and trophies is a serious paradyme shift. 

What we were is not what we are, change is difficult.

No. Ability to win was the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd criteria on their list. They picked the candidate who they thought would build the best program. Was he? Too soon to tell. But of the other coaches who were job searching that year, none have done any better at this point except Buzz, and he wasn't an option. Cuonzo is close but California is a bubble team just like Marquette despite him having a MUCH better starting place.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 17, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
Obviously Doc had a lot to do in the process and his words carry the most weight. While I love Doc, I am not sure that he is best guy to make a call. Of course he should be part of the process but a few factors come into play regarding him.

#1 The whole thing came down in the middle of NBA season and his time is somewhat limited. He was very active but IMO he was very active and wanted to move the process along ASAP

 #2 Shaka was his guy and when he was lost he went to someone he knew and could get. Wojo and Doc's family have history together and Doc knew he was a great guy. Wojo became the easy pick. He was one Doc's short list from day one.

#3 It is never good to have one guy carry too much weight in a process. Aside from Doc few on the BOT could tell you how far away the free throw line is from the hoop. Little fight back on recommendation within BOT and that is how Buzz also got the job.

All in all, Doc is great guy and great ambassador for MU. That said, he would be one of 4-6 "basketball" people I would have in any hiring process. That is how we got KO and TC and worked out quite well for the program.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 09:05:31 AM
What is becoming clear is there is a vocal but in the minority group of power brokers within MU (BOT/Admin/Donors) that are not happy with where the program is at and/or Wojo as a hire. Those folks are talking to other folks who are  parroting it out into the internet and then people are picking it up from there and treating it as gospel.

Bottom line, all of the people involved in the decision and who decide Wojo's fate are competitive types who expect results. They will not invest as much money as they do in the basketball program and accept long term, middle of the road results. They are also pragmatic and recognize that there was a hill to climb in the post-Buzz era.

You can certainly disagree with decisions that have been made but to ascribe the decisions to some sort of ulterior motive is borderline psychotic.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 17, 2017, 09:08:55 AM
I really hope that the BOT wouldn't get too "down in the weeds" when it comes to hiring a basketball coach anyway.  They can lay out what the overall philosophy of the program should be, but then let your newly selected President and your experienced interim athletic director, along with a member of your own group who is a former player and current NBA coach make the recommendation. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 09:12:05 AM
If we're going to re-legislate the Wojo hire, let's really do it. Shaka's off the table, who are you taking other than Wojo? I've seen no evidence that anyone else that was a candidate is outperforming Wojo at this point. Doesn't mean Wojo is awesome, but in the context of what the options are, I'm not convinced that we could have done better.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 17, 2017, 09:21:11 AM
A thread on the scout board......  The BOT is satisfied with Wojo.    They were put off by the off court attention that occurred under Buzz.    They are pleased that Wojo is bringing in players who, so far, are of high character and are willing to give him several more years to build the program.    So, rant, rave, curse, scheme, whatever.     The powers-that-be wanted the anti-Buzz, believe they have him, and are not in a hurry.

I am sure this is the case - until it isnt.

When do ever hear that a BOT or admin is unhappy with a coach that doesnt lead to almost immediate firing.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 17, 2017, 09:28:32 AM
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: manny31 on February 17, 2017, 10:07:28 AM
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

There you have it. This discussion can go on forever and we can present a narative that Wojo is this or isn't that. Shaka,or whomever would have been a better hire etc etc. I am not saying Wojo is great or will be great, he just isn't going any where soon. I think part of the cause of this whole conversation is that our collective expectations were raise by Buzz generally over achieving. IMHO.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: jsglow on February 17, 2017, 10:40:55 AM
What is becoming clear is there is a vocal but in the minority group of power brokers within MU (BOT/Admin/Donors) that are not happy with where the program is at and/or Wojo as a hire. Those folks are talking to other folks who are  parroting it out into the internet and then people are picking it up from there and treating it as gospel.

Bottom line, all of the people involved in the decision and who decide Wojo's fate are competitive types who expect results. They will not invest as much money as they do in the basketball program and accept long term, middle of the road results. They are also pragmatic and recognize that there was a hill to climb in the post-Buzz era.

You can certainly disagree with decisions that have been made but to ascribe the decisions to some sort of ulterior motive is borderline psychotic.

We're meeting with Bill Scholl and Mike Lovell tomorrow.  I think I'll ask them when MU is canning Steve.   ::)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 17, 2017, 10:45:32 AM
jsglow

+1

Right now Wojo has a better chance of replacing Coach K at Duke then getting fired. Neither one happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Sir Lawrence on February 17, 2017, 10:54:45 AM
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

This is correct. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: skianth16 on February 17, 2017, 11:02:34 AM
There you have it. This discussion can go on forever and we can present a narative that Wojo is this or isn't that. Shaka,or whomever would have been a better hire etc etc. I am not saying Wojo is great or will be great, he just isn't going any where soon. I think part of the cause of this whole conversation is that our collective expectations were raise by Buzz generally over achieving. IMHO.
Did Buzz overachieve, or is he just a better coach? Given what he did at MU and what he's doing at VT, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better coach. He had some learning curve issues at MU in his first season or two, but he was always able to get more out of his teams than was expected. The fact that he got guys like Lazar and Jae into the NBA speaks volumes about his abilities as a coach, IMO.

I don't know that I see Wojo ever being that kind of coach. If anything, Wojo's system seems to have limited some of our better athletes. Maybe he'll have more success with his own recruits. Buzz somehow figured out to coach someone else's guys, though.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 17, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Sir

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well!!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 11:38:15 AM
Did Buzz overachieve, or is he just a better coach? Given what he did at MU and what he's doing at VT, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better coach. He had some learning curve issues at MU in his first season or two, but he was always able to get more out of his teams than was expected. The fact that he got guys like Lazar and Jae into the NBA speaks volumes about his abilities as a coach, IMO.

I don't know that I see Wojo ever being that kind of coach. If anything, Wojo's system seems to have limited some of our better athletes. Maybe he'll have more success with his own recruits. Buzz somehow figured out to coach someone else's guys, though.

I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that Buzz is performing better at VPI than Wojo at MU. Meeting expectations is a different standard as MU has some and VPI does not.

I think Buzz is likely a better coach right now but the margin isn't that wide.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 17, 2017, 11:41:13 AM
And did he really "get" guys into the NBA?  Or were they good players and that's how he won with them.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: skianth16 on February 17, 2017, 11:58:12 AM
And did he really "get" guys into the NBA?  Or were they good players and that's how he won with them.

Looking at the guys that went pro in the Buzz years - Hayward, Butler, Crowder, Buycks, DJO - I don't think any of those guys would have had the careers they ended up having without Buzz. His style and his brand of basketball pushed these guys to be better than expected. Jimmy might be the exception given his size and natural athletic ability. Just the fact that all of these guys came in as Juco transfers says a lot about their pro prospects to me.

I really think Buzz taught defense right and instilled a work ethic and toughness that got this group to go places they wouldn't have been expected to.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 17, 2017, 01:15:51 PM
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 01:36:34 PM
I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.

I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Eldon on February 17, 2017, 01:49:27 PM
I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something

!!!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: BM1090 on February 17, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something

Doubt it. No NCAA this year, next and in 2019? Then he's probably gone.

Irrelevant though because we're gonna make it this year.

Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 17, 2017, 01:58:44 PM
Progress has been made in terms of revamping the culture. But the lack of success on the court is the critical measurement. Wojo isn't getting fired this year but there are some who are very concerned.

Frankly, the current product is mediocre.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2017, 03:02:26 PM
I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.

Three Marquette coaches have missed the NCAA tournament 3 years in a row since the 1950s. Rick Majerus went to the NIT all three years as head coach, then resigned. Bob Dukiet coached MU to one NIT followed by 2 season not in any tournament and was fired. KO had that same record in his first three years and then had back to back NCAA tournaments before leaving for Tennessee. In the 22 years immediately preceding Wojo we went to 14 NCAAs, 5 NITs and struck out 3 times.

I think we probably get in this year, and I hope it's the beginning of a great run for Wojo. But if he goes 0 for 4 and still has a job, a variation of Hiroshima will have been realized.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: mu03eng on February 17, 2017, 03:19:10 PM
Doubt it. No NCAA this year, next and in 2019? Then he's probably gone.

Irrelevant though because we're gonna make it this year.

Wojo has full support through this season. If he doesn't make the NCAA this year or next year, the nay sayers will be in more control than the backers at that point. Wojo lacks for nothing in terms of support for the university, and so with our history and support, if he can't return us to the NCAA tournament in his first 5 years....he should be gone. And I say that as one of the biggest Wojo supporters on the board. He's gotta get us in this year or next...if not find someone who can.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 17, 2017, 03:24:05 PM
Wojo has full support through this season. If he doesn't make the NCAA this year or next year, the nay sayers will be in more control than the backers at that point. Wojo lacks for nothing in terms of support for the university, and so with our history and support, if he can't return us to the NCAA tournament in his first 5 years....he should be gone. And I say that as one of the biggest Wojo supporters on the board. He's gotta get us in this year or next...if not find someone who can.

But next year is his 4th year not 5th.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: HoopsterBC on February 17, 2017, 03:34:37 PM
Progress has been made in terms of revamping the culture. But the lack of success on the court is the critical measurement. Wojo isn't getting fired this year but there are some who are very concerned.

Frankly, the current product is mediocre.

The current product is Wojos inability to recruit inside players that can really play in the Big East.  Starting with no players from Buzz, to signing a one and done player
like Henry, stuck Wojo behind from the get go.  Wojo made a mistake with the Ellensons, he is paying for it now.  With Carter and Rowsey here, he then signed Howard which caused Carter to leave.  I love Howard and his potential, but 3 pigmy players at one time?   Then the Cohen, Johnson, Reinhardt situation, we all believe
Reinhardt is better than Cohen but the chemistry might be worse with Reinhardt.  Better just to recruit 4 year players but Wojo needed bodies and still does for next
year.  More grad transfers.  I think 2018 is the most important year to figure out his regime.  See what happens.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: BM1090 on February 17, 2017, 03:51:02 PM
Wojo has full support through this season. If he doesn't make the NCAA this year or next year, the nay sayers will be in more control than the backers at that point. Wojo lacks for nothing in terms of support for the university, and so with our history and support, if he can't return us to the NCAA tournament in his first 5 years....he should be gone. And I say that as one of the biggest Wojo supporters on the board. He's gotta get us in this year or next...if not find someone who can.

Right, 5 years. Next year is only 4. If we're talking 5 years, then I agree.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 17, 2017, 04:06:05 PM
The current product is Wojos inability to recruit inside players that can really play in the Big East.  Starting with no players from Buzz, to signing a one and done player
like Henry, stuck Wojo behind from the get go.  Wojo made a mistake with the Ellensons, he is paying for it now.  With Carter and Rowsey here, he then signed Howard which caused Carter to leave.  I love Howard and his potential, but 3 pigmy players at one time?   Then the Cohen, Johnson, Reinhardt situation, we all believe
Reinhardt is better than Cohen but the chemistry might be worse with Reinhardt.  Better just to recruit 4 year players but Wojo needed bodies and still does for next
year.  More grad transfers.  I think 2018 is the most important year to figure out his regime.  See what happens.

Henry Ellenson was not a mistake. Nor is taking grad transfers. If I had it my way, we'd grab one of the top 10 grad transfers every season. If recruiting better players results in transfers from the back end of your bench, so be it. Such is life in major college athletics.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: manny31 on February 17, 2017, 05:23:25 PM
Did Buzz overachieve, or is he just a better coach? Given what he did at MU and what he's doing at VT, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better coach. He had some learning curve issues at MU in his first season or two, but he was always able to get more out of his teams than was expected. The fact that he got guys like Lazar and Jae into the NBA speaks volumes about his abilities as a coach, IMO.

I don't know that I see Wojo ever being that kind of coach. If anything, Wojo's system seems to have limited some of our better athletes. Maybe he'll have more success with his own recruits. Buzz somehow figured out to coach someone else's guys, though.
After I wrote this I regretted some of my wording. I should have said something like Buzz exceeded my expectations. I don't think it is fair to compare what Buzz is doing at VT to Wojo's situation at MU, two very different mandates. I will agree though that he got a lot out of his players. Wojo is still learning the BEast and what he needs to compete. I don't think Wojo has a good BEast rooster, maybe next year? He is learning.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: thekahoona on February 17, 2017, 07:11:27 PM
i like wojo, but he hasn't recruited the type of player he was at all.  i don't see any "floor slappers here"  he's recruited some mighty fine "basketball players", but now he needs to coach them.  when plan "A"(run n gun) don't work, he has no plan "B".  plan "B" should be to slow it down and get the no footer or foul or...don't just keep gunning cuz if you find yourself shooting, let's say about 9-10% from the arc, you are going to get your bike supporter handed to you every time. 

wojo needs to get a few more experienced old school coaches in there to bring the "basketball players" he has brought here, to the next level

Bingo. 

I said it once before and got beat up for it. This team lacks 40 minutes of intensity, not talent. If they ever put a full 40 minutes of intense basketball together they would be dangerous.

Sigh.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: HoopsterBC on February 17, 2017, 09:04:03 PM
Henry Ellenson was not a mistake. Nor is taking grad transfers. If I had it my way, we'd grab one of the top 10 grad transfers every season. If recruiting better players results in transfers from the back end of your bench, so be it. Such is life in major college athletics.

He will agree to disagree, half this board wants Wojos head.  I say lets see what he does in the upcoming next 2 years.  He will have is own company then.  DWilson
will be the last of Buzz's recruits.  Henry was a mistake only that it set him back to really to year 1 again.  They won last year with Henry, so for MU faithful that was important, Henry did not get them to a tourney, so was he the right recruit?  Maybe, maybe not.  Wojo thought he was staying 2 years.  If he was at MU right now, I
think they would be really good.  Happens in the college landscape now.   Because of Henry leaving, he had no choice but to go for a grad transfer.  Going forward
I am sure that will happen again this year, the team next year needs some more experience.  After next year,  classes wiill be even distributed so he will not have to do it.  Wojo I am sure is well awhere of the situation.  He works the recruiting trail hard,  MU gives him the budget to it.  He has 5 more athletes to pick up the next 2 years, has Bailey, and maybe Joey.  I am pretty sure he will hold one for 2018 besides those 2, leaves him the opportunity to pick up grad this spring.  Then MU fans
will know what they have, plus the best new arena in the country.  I think he should be able to sell that!  If not, good-bye!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Herman Cain on February 18, 2017, 12:40:05 AM
I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something
Wojo is here for the long run. They are actively considering another contract extension as we speak .  He doesn't have to make the NCAA this year or next year to keep his job. He is the consummate corporate inside player. He has the 100 percent confidence of Lovell, who remains deeply infatuated. As long as Lovell is secure in his job, Wojo will be secure in his.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on February 18, 2017, 08:43:28 AM
Have to run, last time, Wojoe is a great coach, the problem is risk/reward, the university does not want to take the risk one needs to take to be competative in the BE or high level intercolegete basketball.  That does not make them bad or wrong it just makes them conservative.
So your argument is that Marquette can't be competitive until it takes JUCOs and/or players of questionable character.  I see
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: ecompt on February 18, 2017, 08:49:04 AM
Wojo is here for the long run. They are actively considering another contract extension as we speak .  He doesn't have to make the NCAA this year or next year to keep his job. He is the consummate corporate inside player. He has the 100 percent confidence of Lovell, who remains deeply infatuated. As long as Lovell is secure in his job, Wojo will be secure in his.

I cannot believe that with attendance dropping and student interest virtually nonexistent that the administration is considering another extension. I realize Wojo probably needs his five years, but why commit past that when you don't know what is going to happen here?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Eldon on February 18, 2017, 08:58:23 AM
Wojo is here for the long run. They are actively considering another contract extension as we speak .  He doesn't have to make the NCAA this year or next year to keep his job. He is the consummate corporate inside player. He has the 100 percent confidence of Lovell, who remains deeply infatuated. As long as Lovell is secure in his job, Wojo will be secure in his.

LOL

Why do you gotta make it awkward, bro?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 18, 2017, 09:04:20 AM
LOL

Why do you gotta make it awkward, bro?

It is true tho. If you look, you'll find Lovell a few rows behind the bench at every road game. I don't think he misses a game. My guess is he loves Wojo and is going to give him all the time he needs, but I also think he is genuinely a fan and wants Marquette to improve and become nationally relevant again.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: nyg on February 18, 2017, 09:06:51 AM
Wojo is here for the long run. They are actively considering another contract extension as we speak .  He doesn't have to make the NCAA this year or next year to keep his job. He is the consummate corporate inside player. He has the 100 percent confidence of Lovell, who remains deeply infatuated. As long as Lovell is secure in his job, Wojo will be secure in his.

If Wojo doesn't get a winning BE season record, heck even a 9-9 season in first four years, there's no way he should stay on, 100 percent confidence or not.

Look at NC State, they just canned Gottfried, who lead them to four straight NCAAAs and two Sweet 16s in his first four seasons.  Then a couple of bad years and bye-bye........
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 18, 2017, 09:11:09 AM
If you read about Lovell and how he ran UWM, he's not a guy who makes bold leadership decisions to create headlines, but a guy who charts a path and plays the long game toward that direction.  It seems like he is doing the same thing at MU and with the basketball program. 

Remember he's an engineer.  He designs and builds things. 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on February 18, 2017, 09:11:38 AM
It is true tho. If you look, you'll find Lovell a few rows behind the bench at every road game. I don't think he misses a game. My guess is he loves Wojo and is going to give him all the time he needs, but I also think he is genuinely a fan and wants Marquette to improve and become nationally relevant again.

I have seen Lovell at just about every sporting event I have attended, non-MBB. Especially at home.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Class71 on February 18, 2017, 09:15:51 AM
Wojo is here for the long run. They are actively considering another contract extension as we speak .  He doesn't have to make the NCAA this year or next year to keep his job. He is the consummate corporate inside player. He has the 100 percent confidence of Lovell, who remains deeply infatuated. As long as Lovell is secure in his job, Wojo will be secure in his.

Clearly Al would not have been hired by this group. He was not a corporate guy. He was just a winner. I know little about Lovell so maybe someone can enlighten me. I've heard him speak a few times and apparently this is not his strong point. Appears he is researcher that somehow got into administration at UWM before coming here. I assume he was hired to raise money but does he have anything else to offer.

If what you say is true, that Lovell likes corporate guys and does not hold people accountable, MU'S issues could go beyond basketball. Please tell me I am wrong.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: GGGG on February 18, 2017, 09:16:32 AM
If Wojo doesn't get a winning BE season record, heck even a 9-9 season in first four years, there's no way he should stay on, 100 percent confidence or not.

Look at NC State, they just canned Gottfried, who lead them to four straight NCAAAs and two Sweet 16s in his first four seasons.  Then a couple of bad years and bye-bye........


There is no way I would give Wojo an extension now and I by and large agree that an NCAA by next year is a must.

That being said, NC State really isn't a model on how Marquette should run its athletic department.  They have consistently tried to make the "splashy" choice with its basketball coach and have tried to make laughable runs at the likes of John Calipari before.  Now if they end up with Gregg Marshall or Archie Miller, I would have to eat those words...
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 18, 2017, 09:17:57 AM
I have seen Lovell at just about every sporting event I have attended, non-MBB. Especially at home.

That's cool. I can honestly say I've never attended anything other than a MBB since he took over, but the point remains. He is flying around the country to watch the MBB team play. Clearly he cares (and likely prioritizes that program).
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on February 18, 2017, 09:24:04 AM
That's cool. I can honestly say I've never attended anything other than a MBB since he took over, but the point remains. He is flying around the country to watch the MBB team play. Clearly he cares (and likely prioritizes that program).

For sure.  My further point, he cares about the whole university and to your point, he knows MBB success and support is critical.  He may have flaws in other aspects, but he is very involved with all athletics.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 18, 2017, 03:00:54 PM
I cannot believe that with attendance dropping and student interest virtually nonexistent that the administration is considering another extension. I realize Wojo probably needs his five years, but why commit past that when you don't know what is going to happen here?

Consider the source
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 18, 2017, 04:09:57 PM
I cannot believe that with attendance dropping and student interest virtually nonexistent that the administration is considering another extension. I realize Wojo probably needs his five years, but why commit past that when you don't know what is going to happen here?

Wojo's current problem is not Lovell.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 19, 2017, 04:17:17 PM
Keefe 

Good call.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: keefe on February 19, 2017, 04:27:23 PM
Keefe 

Good call.

Joe - But what the f#ck do we know!

You in China these days? We are working with PowerChina on three projects.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Goose on February 19, 2017, 06:34:38 PM
Dan

Not sure on next China trip, but probably early March. Have several domestic trips I need to get out of the way first.

I do agree, what the Fxxk do we know!!
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: muguru on February 19, 2017, 07:47:51 PM
Lovell lost a lot of credence almost right away when he didn't inform Dick Strong about the Wojo hire until AFTER he was hired...Big Mistake. Not sure how/why you alienate your largest donor like that but he did. Lovell can love Wojo all he wants, but what matters most is what the BOT thinks of him..they will ultimately be the ones to decide.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Herman Cain on February 19, 2017, 08:30:42 PM

There is no way I would give Wojo an extension now and I by and large agree that an NCAA by next year is a must.

That being said, NC State really isn't a model on how Marquette should run its athletic department.  They have consistently tried to make the "splashy" choice with its basketball coach and have tried to make laughable runs at the likes of John Calipari before.  Now if they end up with Gregg Marshall or Archie Miller, I would have to eat those words...
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/butler/2017/02/15/let-chris-holtmann-speculation-begin-he-candidate-nc-state/97937750/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: T-Bone on February 19, 2017, 08:48:31 PM
So... whatever happened to Brandon Miller? 
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: VegasWarrior77 on March 04, 2017, 09:50:08 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: VegasWarrior77 on March 04, 2017, 09:53:18 PM
x

Dark Glasses is one of the more clever and insightful participants on the board. I welcome his return.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: wadesworld on March 04, 2017, 09:53:30 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2/giphy.gif)

Lol
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: B. McBannerson on March 04, 2017, 10:01:24 PM
I cannot believe that with attendance dropping and student interest virtually nonexistent that the administration is considering another extension. I realize Wojo probably needs his five years, but why commit past that when you don't know what is going to happen here?

Attendance isn't dropping, rising from last year.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: B. McBannerson on March 04, 2017, 10:02:27 PM
Lovell lost a lot of credence almost right away when he didn't inform Dick Strong about the Wojo hire until AFTER he was hired...Big Mistake. Not sure how/why you alienate your largest donor like that but he did. Lovell can love Wojo all he wants, but what matters most is what the BOT thinks of him..they will ultimately be the ones to decide.

The BOT appears to love them some Wojo just fine.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: wadesworld on March 04, 2017, 10:13:15 PM
The BOT appears to love them some Wojo just fine.

And from what I understand there are very few people who don't love Lovell.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on March 04, 2017, 10:20:17 PM
The last time I was on this board, the Warriors were #DoneDeal with Shaka Smart.  To the detriment of many, that was a borderline hoax.  Different names of coaches entered our lexicon.  Finally, there was one........  Wojo.  Excitement spurred through the MU masses due to Wojo's close kinship with Mike K and success.  Wojo had 15 yrs of experience and had recruited some top talent including Milwaukee Bucks own Jabari Parker.  A glimmer of hope shone upon Warrior Nation as Wojo would be the coach to lead us back to the NCAA tournament.  Those hopes were increased as Wojo landed what most other coaches here couldn't:  A blue chip prospect by the name of Henry Ellenson.  The future looked bright, in fact, it looked damn good.

Fast Forward 3 years later and Wojo hasn't delivered.  You could go as far as saying that he's been a huge disappointment.  No post season appearances for MU during Wojo's tenure and this season looks to be in the drain after an embarrassing loss to Georgetown.  By drain, I mean no NCAA tournament appearances.  NIT doesn't cut it for MU, especially for an NCAA program that is top 5 in spending on its basketball team.  Take a further gander south east to our old "friend" Buzz Williams at Virginia Tech.  Buzz has taken a historically bad program, that puts next to zero into its basketball program and is now competitive - much more so than Marquette.

So, what's the issue with Wojo?  Surprisingly, it's simple yet quite dumbfounding.  As a player, Wojo was very defensive minded and a lot to handle on the perimeter when he was at Duke.  This hasn't translated onto any of his teams here at MU.  None have played defense, in fact, they're downright terrible on that side of the ball. Players lose their man, giving up uncontested jumpers and lay ins.  You can find much better defensive teams at the mid major level.  Wojo's teams are a far cry from Buzz's elite defensive, junkyard dog units who would stifle opponents. #Deflections  Wojo is darn right horrendous.  In 3 years at MU he's failed to install a defensive system.  This is unacceptable and will be his undoing at MU.  It's amazing how poorly coached they are on defense.

MU Defensive Rankings vs NCAA Divsion I
Offensive Rebounding- 211th
Defensive Rebounding-218th
Avg Score against - 189th

These stats are abysmal and are those that mediocre mid major teams have.

I understand Wojo was dealt a bad hand here.  MU was in shambles when he arrived.  He's recruited 4 stars, but none to this point have shown much sans Markus Howard.  Heldt is terrible and wouldn't start on many mid major rosters, while Cheatam is solid.  Other than that, Wojo has recruited guards who can shoot, but are undersized.  Secondly, where are all the bigs when it comes to recruiting?  A bunch of undersized 4 star guards won't take you far in a season.  When you look at MU's starting 5 - you see Duke's bench......the ones still in warmups from a physical standpoint.  Yes, he snagged Ellenson which netted Wojo a contract extension but what did that really accomplish?  Short term it was great, but Wojo failed to parlay that move into what matters most - Wins = media hype = recruiting power.   Furthermore, there are other coaches who have done much better who have been dealt similar hands.  Archie Miller from Dayton took a team of basically 6 players to the tourney a few years ago.  Buzz rebuilding Va Tech in the toughest conference, the ACC, and  are jobs well done and signatures of great coaching.

Wojo doesn't have the signature of a great coach.  Often times it seems as if he's barely treading water.  Defense matters most when making an NCAA run, and Wojo hasn't been able to solve that issue in 3 years - posting defensive numbers you find at the mid major level.

Next Coach Up.......

.....The Search Continues.......

Where you at?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on March 04, 2017, 10:27:50 PM
Where you at?

You have to say his name three times. It's like Beetlejuice....or Biggie Smalls.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: LloydsLegs on March 04, 2017, 10:44:02 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2/giphy.gif)

Quote from: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
x

Dark Glasses is one of the more clever and insightful participants on the board. I welcome his return.

Keefe = The Dark One ?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Loose Cannon on March 05, 2017, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
x

Dark Glasses is one of the more clever and insightful participants on the board. I welcome his return.

Keefe = The Dark One ?

That would be Most Disappointing.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: FartyEightHours on March 24, 2019, 08:38:49 PM
What is Bo Ryan doing?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: tower912 on March 24, 2019, 08:41:18 PM
What is Bo Ryan doing?
His girlfriend.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on March 24, 2019, 08:41:43 PM
His girlfriend.

Which one?
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: rocket surgeon on March 25, 2019, 10:23:35 AM
Bo actually moved from Naples to Palm Springs...wasn’t the heat that was getting to him but the dental hygienists weren’t quite up to his “standards”
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Jon on March 25, 2019, 12:54:18 PM
Brand x

Your post made my weekend. I found that to be very, very funny. Plus, it made have more respect for MikeDeannes big time. He just became my kind of egomaniac.

The Dark One's pearls of wisdom is red meat for the famished.

Brand X mocks yet never offers even a scintilla of insight. Dark Glasses, on the other hand, offers wry observations wrapped in scintillating bon mots. Pure poetry.
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: burger on March 25, 2019, 09:25:58 PM
Bo is out looking for a "Krafty"......

A new term in our Sports lexicon.....Thank you NFL.....

Probably at a shopping center near you.....

A noun turned into a verb.....

Badger trolls should appreciate it.....They came up with getting "Creaned".......
Title: Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
Post by: Jon on March 26, 2019, 02:27:13 AM
Bo is out looking for a "Krafty"......



I had to think about that until the light finally came on