MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MerrittsMustache on December 19, 2016, 08:59:46 AM
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Christian McCaffery sitting out Stanford's bowl game to prepare for the draft. Smart long-term decision or selfish player who's bailing on his teammates?
I tend to believe it's both and I fully expect this to become a trend among college football players.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2017/story/_/id/18310396/christian-mccaffrey-stanford-cardinal-skip-hyundai-sun-bowl (http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2017/story/_/id/18310396/christian-mccaffrey-stanford-cardinal-skip-hyundai-sun-bowl)
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Fournette did the same. Good for the both of them. If coches leave their teams to prepare for their next jobs then so can players.
They're not getting paid and why risk injury in the friggen Sun Bowl and drop a round or two in the draft.
Does nobody remember Jaylon Smith?
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Does nobody remember Jaylon Smith?
I can assure you if Stanford was playing in the Fiesta Bowl, this would be a diff story. I think this is is very much a result of Stanford having an underwhelming season and playing in a meaningless bowl game.
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That's why he went to college.
It's like criticizing a guy for quitting an internship when he is offered a full-time job at a good company. His job will be playing in the NFL. That's his future and where his income will derive.
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That's why he went to college.
It's like criticizing a guy for quitting an internship when he is offered a full-time job at a good company. His job will be playing in the NFL. That's his future and where his income will derive.
Yep. If you're a lock to go early, you don't play in the Senior Bowl either.
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Does nobody remember Jaylon Smith?
Or Willis McGahee in the 2003 Fiesta Bowl
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Or Willis McGahee in the 2003 Fiesta Bowl
That was brutal...I dont think people realize how hard it is to tear a PCL
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Smart move. I have no doubt this will catch-on for top prospects in non-marquee bowl games.
Most of the bowl games are meaningless ventures that only a team's hardcore fans will watch and remember. And, the only real value is providing ESPN with relevantly cheap content during a period of time when people are home and not working.
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I've often wondered if players should skip entire seasons. For instance, had McCafferey just decided not to play this year after he carved up Iowa in the Rose Bowl, how much would it have affected his draft status? (My guess is "enough that it was worth the risk," but I don't know enough to know.)
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If Stanford was playing for a NC, he would play. However, a Stanford education equates to a smart guy who more than likely ran a risk/benefit analysis and opted to insure his future income to the best of his ability. Hard to argue.
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I've often wondered if players should skip entire seasons. For instance, had McCafferey just decided not to play this year after he carved up Iowa in the Rose Bowl, how much would it have affected his draft status? (My guess is "enough that it was worth the risk," but I don't know enough to know.)
I'd have no issue with a player sitting out an entire season. Fournette and Clowney would have been in prime position to do that. Clowney was physically on the field his last year at SC but I'm not sure how much he actually played. Obviously that didn't hurt his draft stock.
If I was a fellow Stanford football player, I'd have some serious issues with McCaffery quitting before the last game though.
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I'd have no issue with a player sitting out an entire season. Fournette and Clowney would have been in prime position to do that. Clowney was physically on the field his last year at SC but I'm not sure how much he actually played. Obviously that didn't hurt his draft stock.
If I was a fellow Stanford football player, I'd have some serious issues with McCaffery quitting before the last game though.
I actually think most would be fully supportive. They know its a meaningless game.
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I actually think most would be fully supportive. They know its a meaningless game.
Then why are they playing? Even someone with no NFL future shouldn't want to risk blowing out a knee and getting concussed in a meaningless game. Actually, Stanford's games have basically been meaningless since mid-October. Should they have just shut down the season at that point?
I understand McCaffery's thought-process but there's no way most of his teammates are supportive of him quitting.
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Bowl games = glorified exhibition games.
Aside from the playoff games, I won't watch one second of any bowl game, and tens of millions share that philosophy.
This was a highly intelligent decision for McCaffery. His college education didn't go to waste. And Fournette showed that even LSU kids can be smart!
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I've often wondered if players should skip entire seasons. For instance, had McCafferey just decided not to play this year after he carved up Iowa in the Rose Bowl, how much would it have affected his draft status? (My guess is "enough that it was worth the risk," but I don't know enough to know.)
Beyond draft status, I wonder how much sitting out a full year just hurts a player's overall development and ability to play at the next level.
Two notable All-American players - Mike Williams and Maurice Clarrett - sat out the season before they were drafted in 2005 and both turned out to be huge NFL busts. It may very well be that they would have been busts regardless, but missing a year of football likely contributed, IMO.
Dorial Beckham Green looked to be a surefire high first-round pick after his first two seasons at Mizzou, then got kicked out of school, sat out a year as a transfer then declared for the draft. Fell into the second round, played poorly with his first team and got traded, and now is a backup on a team with terrible receivers.
I understand what McCaffery and Fournette are doing, and it's probably in their best interests - so long as meathead NFL coaches/GMs don't downgrade them for not loving the game or some such nonsense - but skipping a full college season seems to be detrimental to a player's long-term growth.
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Beyond draft status, I wonder how much sitting out a full year just hurts a player's overall development and ability to play at the next level.
Two notable All-American players - Mike Williams and Maurice Clarrett - sat out the season before they were drafted in 2005 and both turned out to be huge NFL busts. It may very well be that they would have been busts regardless, but missing a year of football likely contributed, IMO.
Dorial Beckham Green looked to be a surefire high first-round pick after his first two seasons at Mizzou, then got kicked out of school, sat out a year as a transfer then declared for the draft. Fell into the second round, played poorly with his first team and got traded, and now is a backup on a team with terrible receivers.
I understand what McCaffery and Fournette are doing, and it's probably in their best interests - so long as meathead NFL coaches/GMs don't downgrade them for not loving the game or some such nonsense - but skipping a full college season seems to be detrimental to a player's long-term growth.
OK, I'm down with this answer.
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PFTCommentator has the hottest take on this..
Love how hes sitting out to let his teamates get the spotlight.True Chrisitan.
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PFTCommentator has the hottest take on this..
Love how hes sitting out to let his teamates get the spotlight.True Chrisitan.
Those bashing McCaffery?
Just another case of Christian persecution in this country.
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So if we had made the NIT last season everyone here would be OK with Henry sitting out the tournament. Hell, even if we had made the NCAA those games would be meaningless for/to him to risk his future income.
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So if we had made the NIT last season everyone here would be OK with Henry sitting out the tournament. Hell, even if we had made the NCAA those games would be meaningless for/to him to risk his future income.
NIT sure, it is kinda pointless so I dont think I would harbor much hard feelings there. NCAA, theres always a chance to win a national championship versus the Sun Bowl. As someone said, if it was the playoffs im sure McCaffery plays.
Plus, the injury risk in basketball probably much less than in football. Sure, you can have a Shaun Livingston or a Kevin Ware, but the risk for concussion is way less.
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So if we had made the NIT last season everyone here would be OK with Henry sitting out the tournament. Hell, even if we had made the NCAA those games would be meaningless for/to him to risk his future income.
The chances of you getting a career threatening injury in basketball is much less than in football.
But if Henry wanted to skip the NIT, I would have been fine.
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The way that college football is set up, once a team loses 2 games their season is basically over. They're not playing for a national championship and with a third loss, they're likely out of BCS bowl contention. What's the point after that?
Once a team loses their third game, should the top players all quit to focus on the draft? Isn't it all meaningless after that anyway? Seriously, is the Sun Bowl really any more meaningless than Stanford's game against Arizona in late October?
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The way that college football is set up, once a team loses 2 games their season is basically over. They're not playing for a national championship and with a third loss, they're likely out of BCS bowl contention. What's the point after that?
Once a team loses their third game, should the top players all quit to focus on the draft? Isn't it all meaningless after that anyway? Seriously, is the Sun Bowl really any more meaningless than Stanford's game against Arizona in late October?
Maybe, I wouldnt be shocked to see players stop playing after a couple of early season losses. Right or wrong, if colleges wont start paying players, theyre gonna see the college game start disappearing and quickly.
In basketball as well, high ranking recruits may start going to China for a year before they are draft eligible.
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Maybe, I wouldnt be shocked to see players stop playing after a couple of early season losses. Right or wrong, if colleges wont start paying players, theyre gonna see the college game start disappearing and quickly.
In basketball as well, high ranking recruits may start going to China for a year before they are draft eligible.
Not sure that is a bad thing. Might actually return to the day where we actually have student athletes who play sports to get a good education. What a novel idea.
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Not sure that is a bad thing. Might actually return to the day where we actually have student athletes who play sports to get a good education. What a novel idea.
Please, do you think even back in the 70s that star players were in school to get an education?
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Maybe, I wouldnt be shocked to see players stop playing after a couple of early season losses. Right or wrong, if colleges wont start paying players, theyre gonna see the college game start disappearing and quickly.
In basketball as well, high ranking recruits may start going to China for a year before they are draft eligible.
Pay or no pay, college football is not going to disappear quickly.
Didn't Brandon Jennings start that "play overseas" trend about 10 years ago? We're still waiting for it catch on.
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Not sure that is a bad thing. Might actually return to the day where we actually have student athletes who play sports to get a good education. What a novel idea.
You probably live close to a Division 3 school where you can watch this all you want if it is so important to you.
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Pay or no pay, college football is not going to disappear quickly.
Didn't Brandon Jennings start that "play overseas" trend about 10 years ago? We're still waiting for it catch on.
I was thinking more along the lines of Mudiay, but that was more of an eligibility issue thinking about it now.
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Not sure that is a bad thing. Might actually return to the day where we actually have student athletes who play sports to get a good education. What a novel idea.
When was that, exactly?
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Please, do you think even back in the 70s that star players were in school to get an education?
More so than today.
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Balderdash.
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The way that college football is set up, once a team loses 2 games their season is basically over. They're not playing for a national championship and with a third loss, they're likely out of BCS bowl contention. What's the point after that?
Once a team loses their third game, should the top players all quit to focus on the draft? Isn't it all meaningless after that anyway? Seriously, is the Sun Bowl really any more meaningless than Stanford's game against Arizona in late October?
I think this is a tough call for the player, but I wish the way coaches approach these games got more attention. I remember the ol' ball coach making life harder for Clowney when he was injured in a year he ultimately could have sat out altogether (shoulder or peck injury, if memory serves).
Similarly, did Dalvin Cook really need 28 carries in a 30-pt win against Syracuse in November? I get that Cook is going to want the ball every down, but I feel like Fischer's got to take the ball out of the pitcher's hand there.
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Not sure that is a bad thing. Might actually return to the day where we actually have student athletes who play sports to get a good education. What a novel idea.
This take is straight FIRE
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College Football: Are the Lesser Bowl Games Getting Flushed Away?
Star player dropouts and increased attention on the playoff have put the squeeze on the sport’s smaller postseason contests
Dec. 19, 2016 7:08 p.m. ET
http://www.wsj.com/articles/college-football-are-the-lesser-bowl-games-getting-flushed-away-1482192506
If there was any doubt that college football’s lengthy slate of bowl games is headed the way of VHS tapes and landline phones, two of the game’s biggest stars erased it in recent days.
In the span of 72 hours, Louisiana State University running back Leonard Fournette and Stanford all-purpose back Christian McCaffrey both announced that they would skip their team’s postseason journeys to the Citrus Bowl and the Sun Bowl, respectively. The reason: so they can prepare for—and avoid injury before—the NFL combine and draft.
The players’ decisions to opt out of their final games sounds a loud statement that elite college athletes are increasingly emboldened to protect their personal future, even if at the expense of their teams. The announcements come as the fascination with the four-team College Football Playoff continues to grow, making everything else in the sport seem like small beer—especially bowl games with corporate names like “ Buffalo Wild Wings” in front of them (as the Citrus Bowl does).
Second- and third-tier bowls already have had to combat mediocre television ratings, struggling ticket sales and thousands of visibly unoccupied seats in many of the games. Even loyal fans frequently take a pass on the expenses involved with traveling to a largely meaningless game.
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Please, do you think even back in the 70s that star players were in school to get an education?
Maybe back in the '20s and '30s.
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If the game is totally meaningless, I'll look forward to watching the Stanford QB hand the ball to the other team and walk off the field....
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College Football: Are the Lesser Bowl Games Getting Flushed Away?
Star player dropouts and increased attention on the playoff have put the squeeze on the sport’s smaller postseason contests
Dec. 19, 2016 7:08 p.m. ET
http://www.wsj.com/articles/college-football-are-the-lesser-bowl-games-getting-flushed-away-1482192506
If there was any doubt that college football’s lengthy slate of bowl games is headed the way of VHS tapes and landline phones, two of the game’s biggest stars erased it in recent days.
In the span of 72 hours, Louisiana State University running back Leonard Fournette and Stanford all-purpose back Christian McCaffrey both announced that they would skip their team’s postseason journeys to the Citrus Bowl and the Sun Bowl, respectively. The reason: so they can prepare for—and avoid injury before—the NFL combine and draft.
The players’ decisions to opt out of their final games sounds a loud statement that elite college athletes are increasingly emboldened to protect their personal future, even if at the expense of their teams. The announcements come as the fascination with the four-team College Football Playoff continues to grow, making everything else in the sport seem like small beer—especially bowl games with corporate names like “ Buffalo Wild Wings” in front of them (as the Citrus Bowl does).
Second- and third-tier bowls already have had to combat mediocre television ratings, struggling ticket sales and thousands of visibly unoccupied seats in many of the games. Even loyal fans frequently take a pass on the expenses involved with traveling to a largely meaningless game.
The "mediocre television ratings" that minor bowls get usually do better than any alternative programming. For instance, I bet whatever minor bowl are on ESPN will crush Marquette's game v. Georgetown on December 28.
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So if we had made the NIT last season everyone here would be OK with Henry sitting out the tournament. Hell, even if we had made the NCAA those games would be meaningless for/to him to risk his future income.
Silly analogy.
Try harder.
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If the game is totally meaningless, I'll look forward to watching the Stanford QB hand the ball to the other team and walk off the field....
That would be the only play I would be interested to see from any non-playoff bowl game
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What does Vegas have to say?
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Case in point re: television ratings.
Dan Wetzel @DanWetzel
Also overnight ratings:
Lopsided Las Vegas Bowl: 2.6
Epic Kentucky-UNC basketball game: 2.4
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From News & Observer in Raleigh:
UNC senior cornerback Des Lawrence and linebacker Andre Smith don't blame McCaffrey for sitting out the game.
“Do what you gotta do,” Lawrence said. “Personally, I think you should do whatever you feel is right, regardless of what everybody else thinks.”
Smith likened it to a coach getting a new job at the end of a season and leaving before the bowl game.
“It’s a business decision,” Smith said. “He’s about to go get a new job.”
Both of these guys are right, and I especially LOVE Smith's take. If I could agree with something 101%, I would!
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From News & Observer in Raleigh:
UNC senior cornerback Des Lawrence and linebacker Andre Smith don't blame McCaffrey for sitting out the game.
“Do what you gotta do,” Lawrence said. “Personally, I think you should do whatever you feel is right, regardless of what everybody else thinks.”
Smith likened it to a coach getting a new job at the end of a season and leaving before the bowl game.
“It’s a business decision,” Smith said. “He’s about to go get a new job.”
Both of these guys are right, and I especially LOVE Smith's take. If I could agree with something 101%, I would!
I bet if you took a poll of P5 conference players, most would have a similar view of it, and support McCaffrey's decision. These guys are not dumb and they see their coaches skip out on bowl games for better jobs all the time.
Beyond coaches, the only guys that are upset about this are a bunch of old guy sportswriters delivering hot takes. Nothing but white noise.
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I bet if you took a poll of P5 conference players, most would have a similar view of it, and support McCaffrey's decision. These guys are not dumb and they see their coaches skip out on bowl games for better jobs all the time.
Beyond coaches, the only guys that are upset about this are a bunch of old guy sportswriters delivering hot takes. Nothing but white noise.
The other crowd that does not like this is the high rolling sweater vest alumni that want to watch or travel to the game to see their alma mater win. These sweater vests might even be bitchin to the alumni relations department about their donations ("bitchin" does necessarily mean not giving)
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I bet if you took a poll of P5 conference players, most would have a similar view of it, and support McCaffrey's decision. These guys are not dumb and they see their coaches skip out on bowl games for better jobs all the time.
Beyond coaches, the only guys that are upset about this are a bunch of old guy sportswriters delivering hot takes. Nothing but white noise.
As a former old-guy sportswriter, I take mild offense because, obviously, I would not have been upset about this in the least. In fact, I would have written a column applauding it.
Jocks need to take care of themselves because, in the end, nobody else really, truly gives a darn. The vast majority of coaches certainly are looking out for #1.
If what McCaffrey and Fournette are doing leads to a trend, this old-guy ex-sportswriter says, "Nice job!"
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The other crowd that does not like this is the high rolling sweater vest alumni that want to watch or travel to the game to see their alma mater win. These sweater vests might even be bitchin to the alumni relations department about their donations ("bitchin" does necessarily mean not giving)
For these non-marquee games I wonder how many really care. How many big-time Stanford boosters are dying to go to El Paso for the Sun Bowl? The attendance at these games are poor.
But, you're right, that's another group. Like the sportswriters, a small but loud group.
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As a former old-guy sportswriter, I take mild offense because, obviously, I would not have been upset about this in the least. In fact, I would have written a column applauding it.
Jocks need to take care of themselves because, in the end, nobody else really, truly gives a darn. The vast majority of coaches certainly are looking out for #1.
If what McCaffrey and Fournette are doing leads to a trend, this old-guy ex-sportswriter says, "Nice job!"
Certainly not all, my mistake in conveying it that way. And, I really should have said sports media instead.
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The other crowd that does not like this is the high rolling sweater vest alumni that want to watch or travel to the game to see their alma mater win. These sweater vests might even be bitchin to the alumni relations department about their donations ("bitchin" does necessarily mean not giving)
The other "crowd" who does not like this are people who prefer that players not quit on their teammates. Sure, it's a smart business decision, but it's also incredibly selfish.
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The other "crowd" who does not like this are people who prefer that players not quit on their teammates. Sure, it's a smart business decision, but it's also incredibly selfish.
Same could (should?) be said of any teammate that would have the expectation that a teammate risk his pro career to play in a bowl game.
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The other "crowd" who does not like this are people who prefer that players not quit on their teammates. Sure, it's a smart business decision, but it's also incredibly selfish.
So, who, besides you, should have a say in whether you quit your job for a new opportunity?
What about people who quit any job? Aren't they abandoning their co-workers? Of course it is a business decision. The player is the only one who really cares about his future. The coaches certainly aren't looking out for a guy who won't be back next year.
And, really, isn't any BB or FB player who declares for the NBA or NFL early "abandoning" his teammates according to your reasoning?
Don't mean to attack you, Merritt (that's what it sounded like when I re-read what I wrote) - just askin'.
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The projected #1 pick is planning to play in the "Advocare V100 Texas Bowl."
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/texasamaggies/2016/12/19/texas-ams-myles-garrett-projected-top-pick-next-nfl-draft-will-skip-bowl-game
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The projected #1 pick is planning to play in the "Advocare V100 Texas Bowl."
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/texasamaggies/2016/12/19/texas-ams-myles-garrett-projected-top-pick-next-nfl-draft-will-skip-bowl-game
This will not affect his draft status. Neither will skipping the Sun Bowl affect McCaffrey's.
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This will not affect his draft status. Neither will skipping the Sun Bowl affect McCaffrey's.
Unless, of course, he suffers a serious injury.
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So, who, besides you, should have a say in whether you quit your job for a new opportunity?
What about people who quit any job? Aren't they abandoning their co-workers? Of course it is a business decision. The player is the only one who really cares about his future. The coaches certainly aren't looking out for a guy who won't be back next year.
And, really, isn't any BB or FB player who declares for the NBA or NFL early "abandoning" his teammates according to your reasoning?
Don't mean to attack you, Merritt (that's what it sounded like when I re-read what I wrote) - just askin'.
1) He doesn't have a new job. He's preparing for a new job. If the Packers called him and said they wanted him to suit up this weekend, it would be a different situation.
2) It's not the same as an employee leaving for a different job. It would be more like if a dept had a project/presentation that they had all worked months to prepare and the employee with the biggest portion of the project quit a few days before the presentation in order to get his resume ready. Not a perfect analogy, I realize but it's closer than an employee leaving for a better opportunity.
3) Players leaving in the offseason is not the same because teams have ample time to prepare for life without him and attempt to find a replacement.
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The projected #1 pick is planning to play in the "Advocare V100 Texas Bowl."
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/texasamaggies/2016/12/19/texas-ams-myles-garrett-projected-top-pick-next-nfl-draft-will-skip-bowl-game
His choice. Just like not playing would be his choice.
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His choice. Just like not playing would be his choice.
And he chose to show respect for his teammates by playing. Good on him.
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I would play. But I completely understand the argument of those who would choose not to.
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And he chose to show respect for his teammates by playing. Good on him.
What McCaffrey is no more disrespectful than if someone leaves their job. Why do people have to over-moralize these things with sports?
I would play. But I completely understand the argument of those who would choose not to.
Yeah I wouldn't call it "right" or "wrong," it's just a decision.
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What McCaffrey is no more disrespectful than if someone leaves their job. Why do people have to over-moralize these things with sports?
All I said is that the TAMU guy showed respect for his teammates by deciding to play. Why do you try to over-moralize what I said?
And yes, I believe it's disrespectful to leave a job without proper notice.
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All I said is that the TAMU guy showed respect for his teammates by deciding to play. Why do you try to over-moralize what I said?
And yes, I believe it's disrespectful to leave a job without proper notice.
He gave plenty of notice.
And don't deflect. By saying one is respectful, you are implying the other isn't.
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What McCaffrey is no more disrespectful than if someone leaves their job. Why do people have to over-moralize these things with sports?
People need to stop saying this. It isn't an apples to apples comparison at all. When you leave a job, you give at least 2 weeks notice and typically assist in transferring your work, training your peers and tying up loose ends. This would be more like giving no notice and leaving projects unfinished, which in my book, would be disrespectful.
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People need to stop saying this. It isn't an apples to apples comparison at all. When you leave a job, you give at least 2 weeks notice and typically assist in transferring your work, training your peers and tying up loose ends. This would be more like giving no notice and leaving projects unfinished, which in my book, would be disrespectful.
Except, his replacement has already been trained.
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He gave plenty of notice.
And don't deflect. By saying one is respectful, you are implying the other isn't.
Plenty of notice?
"Hey I know it's the team's very next game and there is no way you'll have time to bring in someone new, but I'm outta here."
Yeah.... ::)
And no deflection - just an honest reply.
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They have backup running backs. It's an exhibition game. It's not like these players are depriving their teammates of a conference title or something. Sure, Crean may hang a banner if he won a bowl game, but it's a fun trip for an exhibition football game.
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Tough to imagine a more selfish position than expecting my teammate on an unpaid team to risk his and his family's future for a hybrid exhibition game-vacation which is (purportedly) designed to be a reward for our joint accomplishments.
My preferred half-cocked analogy is to a paid vacation for a graduation ceremony where you have to take a turn at russian roulette when accepting your diploma.
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Plenty of notice?
"Hey I know it's the team's very next game and there is no way you'll have time to bring in someone new, but I'm outta here."
Yeah.... ::)
And no deflection - just an honest reply.
He didn't leave the team the night before the game. He left two weeks before the game. Plenty of notice.
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People need to stop saying this. It isn't an apples to apples comparison at all. When you leave a job, you give at least 2 weeks notice and typically assist in transferring your work, training your peers and tying up loose ends. This would be more like giving no notice and leaving projects unfinished, which in my book, would be disrespectful.
McCaffery publicly announced his intentions Monday (who knows when he told his coaches), which is 12 days before the bowl game. So, pretty much two weeks notice.
I'm not sure how "finishing up projects" is analogous to college football players, but McCaffery has backups who have ample time to be ready for a Dec. 30 game, given it's a sport in which teams typically only have 6 days to prepare for a game. McCaffery's coaches and teammates have at least twice as much time to prepare for his absence than they normally would (assuming he didn't inform them earlier than Monday).
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He didn't leave the team the night before the game. He left two weeks before the game. Plenty of notice.
You called my comment deflection - I call yours rationalization.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
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McCaffrey made a business decision, and a damn smart one IMHO.
As many have said, I don't see how what he decided is even close to as "bad" as a coach leaving one school for a better school before a bowl game.
Saban blamed the playoff format for decisions like McCaffrey's because it is making the non-playoff bowls inconsequential. Well, smart people have known they were inconsequential for decades.
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I remember back in the early 1980's as a young teenager watching bowl games on TV thinking to myself, what is the point of these games. Nothing different happens to the team that wins and nothing different happens to the team that loses. This is stupid, I'm watching basketball.
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I remember back in the early 1980's as a young teenager watching bowl games on TV thinking to myself, what is the point of these games. Nothing different happens to the team that wins and nothing different happens to the team that loses. This is stupid, I'm watching basketball.
I remember being a HS football player in the late-90s, watching bowl games and thinking that it'd be awesome to get to play a "bonus" game of football at the end of the season.
To each his own.
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I remember being a HS football player in the late-90s, watching bowl games and thinking that it'd be awesome to get to play a "bonus" game of football at the end of the season.
McCaffrey very well might have had that exact same thought when he was a HS football player.
And then he grew up to be a great college football player and probable first-round draft pick, and he realized, "Hey, I'd better take care of No. 1 instead of playing in a 'bonus' game that I now know is a meaningless exhibition."
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Not to mention that he has been through bowl games before and was the MVP of last year's Rose Bowl. I think he knows what he is missing.
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McCaffrey very well might have had that exact same thought when he was a HS football player.
And then he grew up to be a great college football player and probable first-round draft pick, and he realized, "Hey, I'd better take care of No. 1 instead of playing in a 'bonus' game that I now know is a meaningless exhibition."
Stanford hasn't played a football game with "meaning" since October. Not sure why a bowl game is viewed any differently.
I can understand the logic behind his decision, but the young man quit on his team. Plain and simple. I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't want any of my children to do that. If you're fine with quitting on your team, so be it.
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Stanford hasn't played a football game with "meaning" since October. Not sure why a bowl game is viewed any differently.
I can understand the logic behind his decision, but the young man quit on his team. Plain and simple. I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't want any of my children to do that. If you're fine with quitting on your team, so be it.
I would be fine with my child talking with his coach weeks before the bowl game and telling him why he was making the decision he is making. If people want to use loaded words like "quit," I would tell him to ignore those guys and move on.
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I would be fine with my child talking with his coach weeks before the bowl game and telling him why he was making the decision he is making. If people want to use loaded words like "quit," I would tell him to ignore those guys and move on.
How is it not quitting?
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How is it not quitting?
You and I both know that people use the word "quit" in certain circumstances as a value judgement. Especially in sports.
Did Traci Carter "quit on his teammates?" I mean I guess by the very definition yes. But again it is a loaded term. That's why I don't recall it being used much (if at all) when it came to his transfer.
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How is it not quitting?
Did Tom Herman quit on Houston 3 weeks before their bowl game?
Did Nick Saban quit on several teams over the years?
Did Shaka Smart quit on VCU?
Did Roy Williams quit on Kansas?
Did Gary Barnett quit on Northwestern?
Did Tom Creane quit on Marquette?
Did Buzz Williams quit on New Orleans and Marquette?
Did Bill Self quit on Tulsa and Illinois?
Shall I go on with people in athletics who make business decisions? The list is long. Are all of them quitters?
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Did Tom Herman quit on Houston 3 weeks before their bowl game?
Did Nick Saban quit on several teams over the years?
Did Shaka Smart quit on VCU?
Did Roy Williams quit on Kansas?
Did Gary Barnett quit on Northwestern?
Did Tom Creane quit on Marquette?
Did Buzz Williams quit on New Orleans and Marquette?
Did Bill Self quit on Tulsa and Illinois?
Shall I go on with people in athletics who make business decisions? The list is long. Are all of them quitters?
I thought he was fired, asked to resign, told in an ambiguous way "your no longer wanted", quit. A distinction without a difference.
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Crean sucks
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Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?
I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.
Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?
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Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?
I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.
Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?
Yeah, but some here recommend ignoring anyone who uses words like "quit." So I guess it makes sense for an NFL prospect to ignore the opinions of NFL scouts. ;)
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Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?
Because he's getting paid for one and not the other.
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Heard an interview with an NFL scout saying he would downgrade him immediately and that if he'd quit on his college team in a "meaningless bowl game" then why wouldn't he do the same if it was late in the season before free agency and he was on a non playoff team?
I understand the business aspect, but when you are going to work in a field where your job is literally to be accountable to the other guys on the roster and expecting that same accountability from them, I have no problem with scouts downgrading him or considering this type of behavior undraftable.
Teams need to know their players will be committed all season long. Teammates need to know you will risk injury making a block to save them from a blindside injury. These are big money, big ratings games. The bowl season is what college football players play for. At what point is protecting yourself actually just being selfish and a bad team player?
I'm not sure where McCaffrey and Fournette are projected to be drafted, but I'd be surprised if they really were downgraded by enough scouts for these decisions to matter.
If either of them were playing in the NFL, they'd be getting paid X dollars per game. They wouldn't quit. It's a false equivalency.
BTW, Ed McCaffrey, a 13-year NFL veteran, absolutely is siding with his son on this decision. Of course. It's logical.
Right now, this seems to some like an extreme measure. But it will become more and more prevalent, and I say, "Good for them." Once upon a time, it was radical for a basketball player to leave college early for the NBA, too.
Hey, the athletes FINALLY have some control over something, and it drives coaches and some others nuts. It's like graduate transfer rule -- the coaches lose a little control and want to close the loophole.
I applaud McCaffrey, Fournette and the dozens and dozens of other young men who are going to be doing this in future years.
It's smart, and it's common sense. I don't see any of the detractors guaranteeing to compensate these guys for lost earnings due to a catastrophic injury in the Beef O Brady Bowl.
Finally ...
Nobody answered my question. Did Tom Herman quit on Houston?
Crickets.
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It's smart, and it's common sense. I don't see any of the detractors guaranteeing to compensate these guys for lost earnings due to a catastrophic injury in the Beef O Brady Bowl.
Finally ...
Nobody answered my question. Did Tom Herman quit on Houston?
Crickets.
Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?
Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.
The basketball coaches you mentioned all quit AFTER the season. That's no different than a player leaving early for a better opportunity.
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Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?
Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.
How can McC train to get another job when he never had a job in the the first place?
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The basketball coaches you mentioned all quit AFTER the season. That's no different than a player leaving early for a better opportunity.
Well how about Traci Carter then? Here is what you said when he left.
Traci is a rich man's Derrick Wilson. He's a hard-nosed player who's a solid defender, good ball-handler and limited shooter. He had value as a back-up PG but he probably wanted more. Can't blame him for that. I wish him the best.
How is what Traci Carter did fundamentally different than what McC did?
You can't blame Traci for wanting more and transferring. But McCaffrey "quit on his teammates?"
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How can McC train to get another job when he never had a job in the the first place?
You're going to argue semantics of what I wrote? Strong point ::)
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Well how about Traci Carter then? Here is what you said when he left.
How is what Traci Carter did fundamentally different than what McC did?
You can't blame Traci for wanting more and transferring. But McCaffrey "quit on his teammates?"
Yes. Traci quit on his teammates. I also said that I understand where McC was coming from. The difference, which you're smart enough to know, is that Traci was a third-string PG, not hands down the best player on the team. Traci quit because he wasn't going to play. McC quit because he's better than his teammates and doesn't want to waste his time or risk injury. Both players were looking out for their own best interests to varying degrees of detriment to the team (for lack of a better phrase). I wish McC the best too but I still think he's quitting.
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Yes. Traci quit on his teammates. I also said that I understand where McC was coming from. The difference, which you're smart enough to know, is that Traci was a third-string PG, not hands down the best player on the team. Traci quit because he wasn't going to play. McC quit because he's better than his teammates and doesn't want to waste his time or risk injury. Both players were looking out for their own best interests to varying degrees of detriment to the team (for lack of a better phrase). I wish McC the best too but I still think he's quitting.
Given what you said earlier...
I can understand the logic behind his decision, but the young man quit on his team. Plain and simple. I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't want any of my children to do that. If you're fine with quitting on your team, so be it.
You are therefore "fine with quitting on your team," when you are a 3rd string PG and not a star player.
You have stared to place a lot of conditions on whether or not someone gets a "quitter" label or not.
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Given what you said earlier...
You are therefore "fine with quitting on your team," when you are a 3rd string PG and not a star player.
You have stared to place a lot of conditions on whether or not someone gets a "quitter" label or not.
I actually said that Traci quit on his team so no, I'm not putting a lot of conditions on it. You're making a lot of inferences.
Merry Christmas, all!
EDIT: Sultan, I appreciate you removing the sentence that I took exception to even before I took exception to it.
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EDIT: Sultan, I appreciate you removing the sentence that I took exception to even before I took exception to it.
My goal is to be less snarky in 2017 and decided to get an early start.
Merry Christmas!
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I remember being a HS football player in the late-90s, watching bowl games and thinking that it'd be awesome to get to play a "bonus" game of football at the end of the season.
To each his own.
Because for you the ultimate achievement would have been playing in college on a bowl team. For McCaffery that is just a stepping stone to better things (besides he has already played in more meaningful bowl games already).
Or ... take the same situation and an agent is telling you about the millions you will get when drafted in April by the NFL. And that agent says that nothing you do in the bowl game can improve your draft stock but if you get seriously hurt all those millions are at significant risk.
It would not be a hard call for you.
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Do we feel the same way about McCaffery as we do about all those Stanford tech geniuses that formed their ideas at Stanford or bailed on school early to start their companies to make themselves rich?
- Instagram cofounders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger met through the Stanford alumni network.
- Trulia cofounders Pete Flint and Sami Inkinen met during class at the Graduate School of Business.
- The idea for StubHub came out of a business plan competition at Stanford
- Loopt was founded by three Stanford sophomores
- Bonobos cofounders Brian Spaly and Andy Dunn were housemates while at Stanford
- Snapchat cofounders Evan Spiegel and Bobby Murphy were frat brothers at Stanford
- Ren Ng created the technology for the Lytro camera while researching at Stanford
- Pulse was created by two Stanford grad students in a "Launchpad" class
- Coursera was founded by two Stanford professors
- In 1994 Jerry Yang and David Filo, while students at Stanford created Yahoo
- Larry Page and Sergey Brin met during a campus tour at Stanford, became friends as students and started Google
- William Hewlett & David Packard met in the 1930s while at Stanford and started Hewlett Packard
- in 1982 Vinod Khosla, Andy Bechtolsheim, and Scott McNealy, all Stanford graduate students, founded Sun Microsystems. It name is from Stanford University Network
Aren't they the same as McCaffery? Why is McCaffery greedy for not wanting to risk injury and the rest are not greedy for not letting their ideas become the property of Stanford university?
Or is Stanford University the greatest collection of greedy people ever assembled?
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Do we feel the same way about McCaffery as we do about all those Stanford tech geniuses that formed their ideas at Stanford or bailed on school early to start their companies to make themselves rich?
- Instagram cofounders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger met through the Stanford alumni network.
- Trulia cofounders Pete Flint and Sami Inkinen met during class at the Graduate School of Business.
- The idea for StubHub came out of a business plan competition at Stanford
- Loopt was founded by three Stanford sophomores
- Bonobos cofounders Brian Spaly and Andy Dunn were housemates while at Stanford
- Snapchat cofounders Evan Spiegel and Bobby Murphy were frat brothers at Stanford
- Ren Ng created the technology for the Lytro camera while researching at Stanford
- Pulse was created by two Stanford grad students in a "Launchpad" class
- Coursera was founded by two Stanford professors
- In 1994 Jerry Yang and David Filo, while students at Stanford created Yahoo
- Larry Page and Sergey Brin met during a campus tour at Stanford, became friends as students and started Google
- William Hewlett & David Packard met in the 1930s while at Stanford and started Hewlett Packard
- in 1982 Vinod Khosla, Andy Bechtolsheim, and Scott McNealy, all Stanford graduate students, founded Sun Microsystems. It name is from Stanford University Network
Aren't they the same as McCaffery? Why is McCaffery greedy for not wanting to risk injury and the rest are not greedy for not letting their ideas become the property of Stanford university?
Or is Stanford University the greatest collection of greedy people ever assembled?
You forgot one tiny detail - McCaffrey was part of a TEAM that still has a game to play. But yeah, other than that, they're all the "same." ::)
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You forgot one tiny detail - McCaffrey was part of a TEAM that still has a game to play. But yeah, other than that, they're all the "same." ::)
Some of the above are Stanford professors that were using Stanford resources and getting paid while developing their ideas. Ditto the graduate students that were working on projects (like the Google guys) and when these projects looked like it would pay off, they quit and started their own company to profit from it.
Then when they became commercially viable, they quit, start their own company and became rich. So they were part of the Stanford "team" in the sense you were thinking of.
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Some of the above are Stanford professors that were using Stanford resources and getting paid while developing their ideas. Ditto the graduate students that were working on projects (like the Google guys) and when these projects looked like it would pay off, they quit and started their own company to profit from it.
Then when they became commercially viable, they quit, start their own company and became rich. So they were part of the Stanford "team" in the sense you were thinking of.
#graspingatstraws
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Again, what's the difference between a no-name bowl and a game in October when a team is 4-4 with a couple of conference losses? The team is just playing out the string. Why risk injury then?
Yes. Tom Herman quit on Houston. That's not apples to apples though because McCaffery doesn't already have another job. He's "training" to get another job. It would be like if Herman quit so he could prepare his resume and hone his interview skills for when he meets with Texas, LSU, etc.
I'll tell you what, MM, when players start leaving teams in the middle of the season, I'll think about taking your side. Until then, it's a classic strawman argument.
I happen to think McCaffrey is doing the smart, logical thing. And based on what I've seen his teammates say, it looks like the VAST majority of them support his decision and don't think he has "quit" on them at all.
He'll be able to live with some coaches he doesn't care about and some anonymous interwebs posters feeling otherwise, I'm sure.
The difference between McCaffrey and Herman is that Herman already had millions in the bank and would have continued having millions coming in had he not quit on Houston. I'm certain Herman even used the extension to tell recruits that he would be there for a long time.
Meanwhile, McCaffrey hasn't earned a dime from Stanford -- even though Stanford has earned many dimes from him. So McCaffrey is "quitting" to ensure his health and to do exactly what he went to Stanford to do: get a lucrative job in his chosen profession.
It's pretty easy to find ways to justify either side of this. I'm confident that I am right (as are you), and I also am confident that history will show this to be routine as more and more athletes do this.
As I said, it wasn't all that long ago that basketball players who left school for the NBA before their 4 years were up were considered "quitters" -- or worse.
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The military is a team-based environment and AFSOC TACPs are one of the most intricately integrated units anywhere. Everyone is expected to do their duty and then some.
This kid is on a team. The bowl game is the culmination of the full season's effort. He should honor his commitment to his teammates and play in this final game.
This isn't the same as leaving Pepsi to join GE. It is about fulfilling everything these guys worked for since Spring Practice.
While I can grasp why he is making this choice there is no honor in it.
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It is the same as leaving Pepsi for GE. Its a job in the entertainment business and he's not being paid enough to put at risk a better job in the NFL.
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Nobody answered my question. Did Tom Herman quit on Houston?
Crickets.
I have no idea what teams/scouts will do, and I'm more playing devil's advocate than anything else. I just think it is an interesting question and that there's valid arguments on both sides.
Addressing your question...yes, he did. I'm not a fan of the coaches that bail before a bowl game. The business is what it is, not everyone will finish out a contract, but I've never been a big fan of guys that leave their current school for a "better" gig before the season is over. What, the bowl season when there are no HS players to scout and no other business going on is so important that you can't stick around for another 2-3 weeks until you finish your season commitment?
Guy leaves after the season, fine. The schools both prepare for and somewhat expect that. But taking off in the middle...well, I guess it comes down to the meaning of a bowl game. I'm not nearly as big a college football fan as basketball, but growing up, I felt like the bowl season was the be-all, end-all of college football. Maybe it's been watered down with the quantity (okay, no maybe about it) of bowls and with the advent of an actual playoff that renders certain games clearly more important than others, but this is what you play for and what you coach for. Finish the damn job before you run off for another one.
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It is the same as leaving Pepsi for GE. Its a job in the entertainment business and he's not being paid enough to put at risk a better job in the NFL.
My guess is that you have never been part of an organization that demands an exquisite degree of team work. If you are a member of a team you see it through.
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I have no idea what teams/scouts will do, and I'm more playing devil's advocate than anything else. I just think it is an interesting question and that there's valid arguments on both sides.
Addressing your question...yes, he did. I'm not a fan of the coaches that bail before a bowl game. The business is what it is, not everyone will finish out a contract, but I've never been a big fan of guys that leave their current school for a "better" gig before the season is over. What, the bowl season when there are no HS players to scout and no other business going on is so important that you can't stick around for another 2-3 weeks until you finish your season commitment?
Guy leaves after the season, fine. The schools both prepare for and somewhat expect that. But taking off in the middle...well, I guess it comes down to the meaning of a bowl game. I'm not nearly as big a college football fan as basketball, but growing up, I felt like the bowl season was the be-all, end-all of college football. Maybe it's been watered down with the quantity (okay, no maybe about it) of bowls and with the advent of an actual playoff that renders certain games clearly more important than others, but this is what you play for and what you coach for. Finish the damn job before you run off for another one.
Thanks, brew. Appreciate your views.
I'm glad McCaffrey, Fournette and others are bailing on the bowls to concentrate on what really matters, but I understand why others feel differently.
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My guess is that you have never been part of an organization that demands an exquisite degree of team work. If you are a member of a team you see it through.
You would not tolerate for five seconds if they underpaid you relative to your teammates.
Same for McCafferty
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If playing in your rec basketball championship jeopardizes your critical business trip, you sit it out, ai'na?
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Simple solution, expand the playoffs and get rid of bowl games. I guarantee you that no one would be sitting out of a playoff game.
Bowl games are dumb and they ruin college football. The season is over for most teams after one loss. For most power 5 teams it's over after two losses. For all teams the season is over after three losses. For western Michigan the season was over before it started!
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Simple solution, expand the playoffs and get rid of bowl games. I guarantee you that no one would be sitting out of a playoff game.
Bowl games are dumb and they ruin college football. The season is over for most teams after one loss. For most power 5 teams it's over after two losses. For all teams the season is over after three losses. For western Michigan the season was over before it started!
I agree, though the question becomes by how far. I can't see them going beyond 16 teams at the most. However that only gives you 15 games to monetize as opposed to what, 30-40 bowl games? Also, you are now expecting college teams to play as many as 17 games? Seems like quite a bit. The problem is that while it would be better for the sport, I'm not sure that's really the primary concern for the powers-that-be. Until you find a more profitable solution, the situation will stay status quo.
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I agree, though the question becomes by how far. I can't see them going beyond 16 teams at the most. However that only gives you 15 games to monetize as opposed to what, 30-40 bowl games? Also, you are now expecting college teams to play as many as 17 games? Seems like quite a bit. The problem is that while it would be better for the sport, I'm not sure that's really the primary concern for the powers-that-be. Until you find a more profitable solution, the situation will stay status quo.
It will be many years before they expand the playoffs to even 8 games. 16 seems far, far away.
Even if there eventually is a 16-team playoff, there will still be bowl games. As long as there are sponsors and TV networks willing to pay big bucks, there will be bowl games. Ugh.
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The military is a team-based environment and AFSOC TACPs are one of the most intricately integrated units anywhere. Everyone is expected to do their duty and then some.
This kid is on a team. The bowl game is the culmination of the full season's effort. He should honor his commitment to his teammates and play in this final game.
This isn't the same as leaving Pepsi to join GE. It is about fulfilling everything these guys worked for since Spring Practice.
While I can grasp why he is making this choice there is no honor in it.
Yeah this argument would have more validity if you wouldn't bring up the bullsh*t comparison to the military.
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Yeah this argument would have more validity if you wouldn't bring up the bullsh*t comparison to the military.
Obviously you have never been a part of something requiring an intricate level of teamwork.
Being a member of an AF Special Operations unit approximates the level of teamwork expected and required of high level collegiate athletics in a way that writing pr copy for a college does not.
In fact, AFSOC warriors are expected to possess the physical strength and mental stamina that, perhaps, only professional athletes come close to matching. Playing golf on Sundays or beer league softball falls far short of what is required to earn the right to wear a Ranger tab. That is not opinion but fact.
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Obviously you have never been a part of something requiring an intricate level of teamwork.
Being a member of an AF Special Operations unit approximates the level of teamwork expected and required of high level collegiate athletics in a way that writing pr copy for a college does not.
In fact, AFSOC warriors are expected to possess the physical strength and mental stamina that, perhaps, only professional athletes come close to matching. Playing golf on Sundays or beer league softball falls far short of what is required to earn the right to wear a Ranger tab. That is not opinion but fact.
Who is claiming that football doesn't involve teamwork? There are other people trained to fill McCaffrey's role on the team. Just like when people leave the armed forces when their contract ends. Someone else steps up.
Furthermore the armed forces are a job where people are earning a living. College athletics isn't.
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If I'm McCaffery's teammate, and he doesn't play, I'm at worst mildly perturbed and maybe rib him about it at the first reunion.
If he plays, rips up his knee and isn't the same again, I think about that for the rest of my life.
Even if there's only a 1 in 100 chance of the latter, I can't conceive of how I'd want my teammate to play in that game. I wouldn't need that on my conscience.
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Those of you supporting McCaffrey - would you have felt the same if he had bagged it after the Colorado game in October? After all, they were 4-3 and their hope for a major bowl was over...but his chances of a career-ending injury have been there all along. Your rationale seems to be that he is the only one who gets to judge his individual risks vs the interests of the team, the fans and the school...so if he got worried about a career-ending injury on October 22, you should still be squarely on his side, right?
If not, why not?
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Those of you supporting McCaffrey - would you have felt the same if he had bagged it after the Colorado game in October? After all, they were 4-3 and their hope for a major bowl was over...but his chances of a career-ending injury have been there all along. Your rationale seems to be that he is the only one who gets to judge his individual risks vs the interests of the team, the fans and the school...so if he got worried about a career-ending injury on October 22, you should still be squarely on his side, right?
If not, why not?
I really wouldn't have cared had he left after the Colorado game in October. You have to remember that I think college athletics are severely tilted to the benefit of the schools, so if a player feels that it is no longer worth his while because it may harm his future earning power, I don't care if they leave mid-season.
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He had already been injured. If there was no chance for a berth in the conference championship game and he wanted to shut down, so be it.
How many NFL players skip the pro bowl?
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Those of you supporting McCaffrey - would you have felt the same if he had bagged it after the Colorado game in October? After all, they were 4-3 and their hope for a major bowl was over...but his chances of a career-ending injury have been there all along. Your rationale seems to be that he is the only one who gets to judge his individual risks vs the interests of the team, the fans and the school...so if he got worried about a career-ending injury on October 22, you should still be squarely on his side, right?
If not, why not?
1. Strawman argument. He didn't quit after 7 games. Your hypothetical situation is silly.
2. Coaches, who unlike players are paid handsomely for their loyalty, spend months and months and years and years preaching loyalty above all else. Then they wave bye-bye, often without even telling their players. For example, Gary Barnett told his Northwestern players that he bleeds purple and that they shouldn't listen to any rumors; two days later, he ditched his contract, ditched his school and ditched the players he claimed to love.
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Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion
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Even if there eventually is a 16-team playoff, there will still be bowl games. As long as there are sponsors and TV networks willing to pay big bucks, there will be bowl games. Ugh.
Yeah ... all this extra football is just the worst.
Seriously, I've never understood the incessant griping about "all the bowl games." Watching bowl games is not a compulsory activity. If you'd rather do something else with your time, by all means ....
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Those of you supporting McCaffrey - would you have felt the same if he had bagged it after the Colorado game in October? After all, they were 4-3 and their hope for a major bowl was over...but his chances of a career-ending injury have been there all along. Your rationale seems to be that he is the only one who gets to judge his individual risks vs the interests of the team, the fans and the school...so if he got worried about a career-ending injury on October 22, you should still be squarely on his side, right?
If not, why not?
Of course I'd be squarely on his side.
Why should he, or anyone, be compelled to play college football?
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Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion
Fine as long as the player is then compensated for the $$$$ that he brought the school.
Bowl games are about the school making money. Simple as that.
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Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion
That would be a fantastic way to win over current and future players.
No chance rival coaches mention this during the recruiting process.
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Fine as long as the player is then compensated for the $$$$ that he brought the school.
Bowl games are about the school making money. Simple as that.
The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.
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The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.
You should be saying to dozens of college football and basketball coaches every year.
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You should be saying to dozens of college football and basketball coaches every year.
Why? Completely different. Their contracts include clear provisions for terminating without cause... often they owe $$$ to the school & certainly don't continue to get paid. There is indeed a price to pay.
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The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.
Where in an NCAA financial aid agreement does it state immediate expulsion is the penalty for not playing?
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I thought athletic scholarships were one year renewable.
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I thought athletic scholarships were one year renewable.
Times are a changing. It used to be that all scholarships were one year renewable. More and more schools are going to guaranteed four year scholarships. I know that is now standard in some of the bigger conferences. In short, it varies now. Obviously, schools offering a guaranteed four years have a recruiting advantage over those offering one year renewable. And in some sports (don't know about football and basketball) they don't always offer four years worth of those one year renewable scholarships (i.e., might just offer two years).
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The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.
Should Marquette have sued Jameel McKay?
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Where in an NCAA financial aid agreement does it state immediate expulsion is the penalty for not playing?
Who said that? Considering a penalty does not mean it's an explicit penalty in the agreement..
Where in the agreement does it say "I'll participate in football in exchange for a scholarship, unless I decide I don't wish to play in particular games"?
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Who said that? Considering a penalty does not mean it's an explicit penalty in the agreement..
Where in the agreement does it say "I'll participate in football in exchange for a scholarship, unless I decide I don't wish to play in particular games"?
You suggested immediate expulsion as the proper remedy, and defended it by saying it was warranted because he violated a contract.
Your argument appears to be that he is bound under contract to play in the bowl game - even though the contract says no such thing - but the university isn't bound by the same contract when it comes to imposing a penalty on him.
Good luck with that one, counselor.
As for your question, I'm pretty sure you know that's not how contracts work.
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You suggested immediate expulsion as the proper remedy, and defended it by saying it was warranted because he violated a contract.
Your argument appears to be that he is bound under contract to play in the bowl game - even though the contract says no such thing - but the university isn't bound by the same contract when it comes to imposing a penalty on him.
Good luck with that one, counselor.
As for your question, I'm pretty sure you know that's not how contracts work.
No, you're lying.
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Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion
How should this be interpreted, then?
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No, you're lying.
Oh, OK.
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How should this be interpreted, then?
Not as "You suggested immediate expulsion as the proper remedy"
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Technically correct. You only suggested that immediate expulsion should be considered. How silly of us.
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Technically correct. You only suggested that immediate expulsion should be considered. How silly of us.
Prosecute them. As you have persecuted me.
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which means laugh sadly and shake our head at their choices? Easy enough.
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which means laugh sadly and shake our head at their choices? Easy enough.
Your lies are helpful to explain why you side with such an unrighteous thief such as this football player for hire, when convenient
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Gonna have to point out my lies. Persecute them. As I persecute you? What is that? The opposite of the Lord's prayer?
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Gonna have to point out my lies. Persecute them. As I persecute you? What is that? The opposite of the Lord's prayer?
You were the type of boy who'd agree to cut Mrs. Green's lawn every week, all summer, 18 weeks, for a dollar per week. You took the $18. 12 weeks in you decided you were done. No hard feelings Mrs. Green, I simply changed my mind.
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You were the type of boy who'd agree to cut Mrs. Green's lawn every week, all summer, 18 weeks, for a dollar per week. You took the $18. 12 weeks in you decided you were done. No hard feelings Mrs. Green, I simply changed my mind.
Wow!!
Our new Chicos?
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You were the type of boy who'd agree to cut Mrs. Green's lawn every week, all summer, 18 weeks, for a dollar per week. You took the $18. 12 weeks in you decided you were done. No hard feelings Mrs. Green, I simply changed my mind.
Actually, no. I was the type of boy who delivered papers for 5 years and wrote off debts for my customers. I am the type of boy who has been married for nearly 25 years to the same woman and walked into burning buildings for nearly 27. I am the type who is tolerant of human failings and the poor decisions of youth. I no longer freak out over transfers. Or 21 year olds putting long term personal financial gain over playing in a meaningless exhibition for their school.
We disagree. Why the martyrdom?
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Your lies are helpful to explain why you side with such an unrighteous thief such as this football player for hire, when convenient
Christian McCaffrey is not a "thief." Your hyperbole is really not helping.
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Actually, no. I was the type of boy who delivered papers for 5 years and wrote off debts for my customers. I am the type of boy who has been married for nearly 25 years to the same woman and walked into burning buildings for nearly 27. I am the type who is tolerant of human failings and the poor decisions of youth. I no longer freak out over transfers. Or 21 year olds putting long term personal financial gain over playing in a meaningless exhibition for their school.
We disagree. Why the martyrdom?
My word is my bond. You disregard contracts and your word. That's the issue.
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My word is my bond. You disregard contracts and your word. That's the issue.
Do you feel the same way about Traci Carter?
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Do you feel the same way about Traci Carter?
Interesting question. As an incapacited player who wasn't partipating anyway, no. Has he played in recent games.. diff discussion
"Things have changed, I'm frustrated & get no minutes so I'm leaving to a diff school" is one thing... "I'm too important to honor my commitment to this or any school, meeeeeeee!!" Is another
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My word is my bond. You disregard contracts and your word. That's the issue.
What in the world are you talking about? I have honored every contract and vow I have ever taken. I disagree with you about the behavior of a college athlete. Why the martyrdom and lashing out? Not just Traci Carter. What was your opinion about Sandy, Henry leaving early, Wally not coming back, Crean going to IU, Buzz to VTech, Deonte, Dawson, Levin, McKay, Mayo, Blue, etc? Why the line in the sand here and the personal attacks against those who view it differently?
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What in the world are you talking about? I have honored every contract and vow I have ever taken. I disagree with you about the behavior of a college athlete. Why the martyrdom and lashing out? Not just Traci Carter. What was your opinion about Sandy, Henry leaving early, Wally not coming back, Crean going to IU, Buzz to VTech, Deonte, Dawson, Levin, McKay, Mayo, Blue, etc? Why the line in the sand here and the personal attacks against those who view it differently?
This is purely driven by self. 100%, nothing else. If a guy wants to leave bc he's frustrated with PT & coaches OK it, great. "I'm too special for this" isn't.
Each situation is VERY diff. I'm speaking on one in particular, and that's important to remember.
PS- if you can get MSU+6.5 in 45 minutes, I'll help you (do it)
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Who said that? Considering a penalty does not mean it's an explicit penalty in the agreement..
Where in the agreement does it say "I'll participate in football in exchange for a scholarship, unless I decide I don't wish to play in particular games"?
Where in the agreement does it say, "I'll participate in every game in exchange for a scholarship?"
Maybe it does actually say that. I've never seen an agreement and I'd like to.
Otherwise, I'm a little worried about you JB. So angry ... and over this?
All I'll say is you're gonna have a lot of anger over the coming years, because this is just the beginning. In 5 years, maybe fewer, there might be 30 players doing this.
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At least it's good to see JayBee can reach inane levels of dislike for something (or in this case, someone) other than the Crystal Ball.
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Where in the agreement does it say, "I'll participate in every game in exchange for a scholarship?"
It doesn't.
That's the thing. JayBee claims McCaffery is violating terms of a contract that aren't actually in the contract.
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Man, UW put in 5 traditionals at garbage time vs Rutgers. Figurin' we can take those dudes, hey?
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OK. We disagree. Why the vitriol?
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It doesn't.
That's the thing. JayBee claims McCaffery is violating terms of a contract that aren't actually in the contract.
WtF are they signing? "Scholarship for fun"??? Cmon bud
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WtF are they signing? "Scholarship for fun"??? Cmon bud
Read a standard NCAA aid agreement and get back to me about the requirements you claim are in there
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Read a standard NCAA aid agreement and get back to me about the requirements you claim are in there
Read the basics. Understand the basics
OUTSIDE of any agreements, let me know
Do student athletes agree to play a specific sport in exchange for value? Yes or no? FOH
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Your lies are helpful to explain why you side with such an unrighteous thief such as this football player for hire, when convenient
This is the craziest rant I've seen on this site since Chicos at his most maddening heights. Talk about going from Zero to Twenty-Seven-Thousand in the space of about 10 seconds. Maybe try taking it down a notch, this isn't borderline insanity, it's full-fledged, tossed out my meds, writing messages to the aliens on the walls insanity. Maybe just try not doubling down on an over-the-top, hyperbolic statement when called on it.
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This is the craziest rant I've seen on this site since Chicos at his most maddening heights. Talk about going from Zero to Twenty-Seven-Thousand in the space of about 10 seconds. Maybe try taking it down a notch, this isn't borderline insanity, it's full-fledged, tossed out my meds, writing messages to the aliens on the walls insanity. Maybe just try not doubling down on an over-the-top, hyperbolic statement when called on it.
Hyperbole? Hyperbole?
I dunno brew ... I have to agree with JB that McCaffrey is worse than Hitler, Saddam and Kahn all rolled into one!
And just checking: "Unrighteous thief" is worse than Satan, right?
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This is purely driven by self. 100%, nothing else. If a guy wants to leave bc he's frustrated with PT & coaches OK it, great. "I'm too special for this" isn't.
Each situation is VERY diff. I'm speaking on one in particular, and that's important to remember.
PS- if you can get MSU+6.5 in 45 minutes, I'll help you (do it)
So "my word is my bond" is conditional, then. OK.
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So "my word is my bond" is conditional, then. OK.
Nah. Word is always bond. What was the agreement is the Q
"I leave, you'll stop paying me plus punish me".... vs
"I leave, eat sh1t"
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This is purely driven by self. 100%, nothing else. If a guy wants to leave bc he's frustrated with PT & coaches OK it, great. "I'm too special for this" isn't.
Each situation is VERY diff. I'm speaking on one in particular, and that's important to remember.
PS- if you can get MSU+6.5 in 45 minutes, I'll help you (do it)
PS MSU won. Check the math
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Fine as long as the player is then compensated for the $$$$ that he brought the school.
Bowl games are about the school making money. Simple as that.
How much money did McCaffrey actually bring to the school? If he didn't go there, would they have sold many less tickets that it wouldn't have covered the $300,000 (granted that number is a WAG, but a conservative WAG) or so he got in terms of tuition, tutoring, training and coaching over his time there? I don't think so. I think people overestimate wildly the actual value of the individual players on college teams. People root for the uniform, not the players. If the top 40 players on the Stanford team played for the Palo Alto Seals in some minor professional football league would they average even $20,000 a season? I doubt it. Their worth at the college level as you think of it is not created by them for the most part.
Further, the teams that go to these lower tier bowls generally lose money on them, not make it. Big time college sports are more for the recognition/advertising they bring to the school than the actual money they bring in, as well as provide a selling point for actual students attending the school.
Further, I think anyone who chooses not to play or coach a team before the end of a season has quit on his team. Doesn't mean they should not do it.
I think the biggest problem with big time college sports isn't that the football/basketball players aren't paid, it is that they're not getting a real college education.
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Nah. Word is always bond. What was the agreement is the Q
"I leave, you'll stop paying me plus punish me".... vs
"I leave, eat sh1t"
I'll let you in on a little secret.
Stanford recruited the guy to help the school make $$$$$ - not because they felt he deserved an education. Every scholarship they give to a football recruit is to add $$$$$$ to the coffers.
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I'll let you in on a little secret.
Stanford recruited the guy to help the school make $$$$$ - not because they felt he deserved an education. Every scholarship they give to a football recruit is to add $$$$$$ to the coffers.
I'll let you in on a secret. The young man entered into a contract to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. He's not honoring his obligation. Shameful!
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I'll let you in on a secret. The young man entered into a contract to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. He's not honoring his obligation. Shameful!
He did play football in exchange for a scholarship. 38 times, in fact ... not including hundreds of practices, workouts, meetings, film sessions, media commitments, publicity appearances, etc.
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He did play football in exchange for a scholarship. 38 times, in fact ... not including hundreds of practices, workouts, meetings, film sessions, media commitments, publicity appearances, etc.
He is refusing to play
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The semester ended in December and he withdrew from school. He is no longer obligated to play.
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The semester ended in December and he withdrew from school. He is no longer obligated to play.
He's refusing to play. This after agreeing to play the season in exchange for a 2016-17 academic year scholarship. Lock him up.
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Full blown chica-itis.
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He's refusing to play. This after agreeing to play the season in exchange for a 2016-17 academic year scholarship. Lock him up.
Where in the NCAA aid agreement did he make this promise?
Regardless, as already noted, he is no longer receiving a scholarship. So if any such promise or obligation to play existed - and it doesn't - it would be a moot point.
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Where in the NCAA aid agreement did he make this promise?
Regardless, as already noted, he is no longer receiving a scholarship. So if any such promise or obligation to play existed - and it doesn't - it would be a moot point.
Uhh, in the agreement is... in the agreement
If we enter into a purchase agreement... I'm buying your house... and the day of close I decide, eh, never mind... I'm not going to honor the agreement.
Your response would be "ok, cool. Here's the earnest $ back, take care!"?
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Uhh, in the agreement is... in the agreement
If we enter into a purchase agreement... I'm buying your house... and the day of close I decide, eh, never mind... I'm not going to honor the agreement.
Your response would be "ok, cool. Here's the earnest $ back, take care!"?
That's a terrible analogy. In no small part because a home purchase agreement specifically lays out each party's obligations should such a situation arise. The NCAA aid agreement does not address this circumstance.
That's the point you're failing to grasp ... perhaps willingly, since doing so refutes your argument.
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Here is a sample:
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Example-Athletic-Aid-Agreement.pdf
Stanford has no grounds, especially since the term has ended.
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Pakuni, Sultan, others:
JB is being intentionally obtuse. He's enjoying trying to play us.
I thought so for a few days now. "Lock him up" confirms it.
I'm done here now, having proclaimed a solid victory.
Happy New Year, all.
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Pakuni, Sultan, others:
JB is being intentionally obtuse. He's enjoying trying to play us.
I thought so for a few days now. "Lock him up" confirms it.
I'm done here now, having proclaimed a solid victory.
Happy New Year, all.
He's the old man in the neighborhood yelling at us to get off his grass.
Good to see it isn't personal though. He's condescending to just about everyone - especially if you question his precious statistics.
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Here is a sample:
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Example-Athletic-Aid-Agreement.pdf
Stanford has no grounds
Huh? A condition to qualify is adhering to various rules (team rules, S&C program rules, etc.)
Ya think perhaps showing up to practice & to games is a team rule?
He is in violation of team rules. He is refusing to play. He did not honor his commitment and obligations. I pray for this young man.
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Huh? A condition to qualify is adhering to various rules (team rules, S&C program rules, etc.)
Ya think perhaps showing up to practice & to games is a team rule?
He is in violation of team rules. He is refusing to play. He did not honor his commitment and obligations. I pray for this young man.
He's violating a team rule... for a team he no longer belongs?
Huh.
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He's violating a team rule... for a team he no longer belongs?
Huh.
Violating a commitment, today. Huh?
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NVM
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http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.ssf/2016/12/michigan_unsure_on_severity_of.html#incart_river_home_pop
Another who will give next year's seniors, or those declaring for the draft, something to think about. In Butt's defense (so fun to type), he is a gamer who would not have dreamed of sitting out.
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McCaffrey's backup, sophomore Bryce Love, rushed for 100+ yards and caught a long TD pass in the Useless Bowl as Stanford won its exhibition against some other team.
So, in addition to the fact that all of McCaffrey's teammates backed his decision, Love loved it and benefited mightily from it.
Great job by McCaffrey. A true team player whose decision jump-started what might end up being a pro career for Bryce Love.
Plus, unlike that poor Michigan tight end, McCaffrey didn't suffer a devastating injury in a meaningless game.
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McCaffrey's backup, sophomore Bryce Love, rushed for 100+ yards and caught a long TD pass in the Useless Bowl as Stanford won its exhibition against some other team.
So, in addition to the fact that all of McCaffrey's teammates backed his decision, Love loved it and benefited mightily from it.
Great job by McCaffrey. A true team player whose decision jump-started what might end up being a pro career for Bryce Love.
Plus, unlike that poor Michigan tight end, McCaffrey didn't suffer a devastating injury in a meaningless game.
This is quite a leap. Nobody's pro stock is ignited in a mid level bowl game as a sophomore. If Bryce Love becomes a pro, it will be a result of his play as the feature back next year as a junior.
Its great that McCaffrey has the support of his teammates, but it was 100% a decision based on McCaffrey and his future. Lets not ascribe some convenient altruistic motivation to it.
As for Butt, its unfortunate, but its football, injuries are gonna happen everywhere. Dante Fowler blew out his knee in summer practices playing in shorts with no pads.
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https://twitter.com/geoffschwartz/status/815365841386672128
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This is quite a leap. Nobody's pro stock is ignited in a mid level bowl game as a sophomore. If Bryce Love becomes a pro, it will be a result of his play as the feature back next year as a junior.
Its great that McCaffrey has the support of his teammates, but it was 100% a decision based on McCaffrey and his future. Lets not ascribe some convenient altruistic motivation to it.
As for Butt, its unfortunate, but its football, injuries are gonna happen everywhere. Dante Fowler blew out his knee in summer practices playing in shorts with no pads.
JW:
I was being quite facetious in my leap. (Sorry, I don't use teal.)
McCaffrey looked out for No. 1, as he should have. A nice side benefit was that another player got to excel in his absence.
As for Butt, yes it absolutely is part of football. If I'm a player who might be worth millions of dollars, I do what I can - within reason and logic - to make sure it doesn't happen to me.
Others made sarcastic leaps such as, "Why not just quit after Game 4 if the team is 1-2?" That falls under neither reason nor logic. Skipping a completely meaningless bowl game, meanwhile, is both reasonable and logical.
Congrats to McCaffrey, congrats to Love, and sympathy to Butt.
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No one has said it, but Butt had a large insurance policy ($4 million) as do a number of NCAA high potential athletes. Butt will be fine, even if he can never play again, which is highly unlikely. He has a quality education from Michigan. I bet someone like Dallas or New England drafts him based on potential knowing he can't play for at least a year.
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No one has said it, but Butt had a large insurance policy ($4 million) as do a number of NCAA high potential athletes. Butt will be fine, even if he can never play again, which is highly unlikely. He has a quality education from Michigan. I bet someone like Dallas or New England drafts him based on potential knowing he can't play for at least a year.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/mxFf0l.gif)
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No one has said it, but Butt had a large insurance policy ($4 million) as do a number of NCAA high potential athletes. Butt will be fine, even if he can never play again, which is highly unlikely. He has a quality education from Michigan. I bet someone like Dallas or New England drafts him based on potential knowing he can't play for at least a year.
I'm glad about that. They all should have big insurance policies. Still, for a first-round draft pick like Fournette, a $4 million insurance policy pales in comparison to what he could earn.
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(https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/mxFf0l.gif)
dude! Happy New Year!
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JW:
I was being quite facetious in my leap. (Sorry, I don't use teal.)
McCaffrey looked out for No. 1, as he should have. A nice side benefit was that another player got to excel in his absence.
As for Butt, yes it absolutely is part of football. If I'm a player who might be worth millions of dollars, I do what I can - within reason and logic - to make sure it doesn't happen to me.
Others made sarcastic leaps such as, "Why not just quit after Game 4 if the team is 1-2?" That falls under neither reason nor logic. Skipping a completely meaningless bowl game, meanwhile, is both reasonable and logical.
Congrats to McCaffrey, congrats to Love, and sympathy to Butt.
My bad, fair enough. Its nice that it worked out for all involved. Ideal situation
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(https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/mxFf0l.gif)
I really don't want to add anything, just having an Undertaker GIF for the return of Chicos is just so darned awesome.
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I really don't want to add anything, just having an Undertaker GIF for the return of Chicos is just so darned awesome.
I'd prefer he stay under water.
Same old. Same old crazy.
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Agreed. But the GIF is still so awesomely appropriate.
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No one has said it, but Butt had a large insurance policy ($4 million) as do a number of NCAA high potential athletes. Butt will be fine, even if he can never play again, which is highly unlikely. He has a quality education from Michigan. I bet someone like Dallas or New England drafts him based on potential knowing he can't play for at least a year.
h
He only gets $4 million if he never plays. A guy expected to go in the late first or early second would earn around that from his initial signing bonus.
He'll get up to $2 million if he falls out of the second round.
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h
He only gets $4 million if he never plays. A guy expected to go in the late first or early second would earn around that from his initial signing bonus.
He'll get up to $2 million if he falls out of the second round.
Good point. A player could suffer an injury that causes him to fall 3 rounds in the draft and costs him millions of dollars, and an insurance policy will have been useless.
I hope it doesn't happen to Butt, but it could.
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So much for NFL GMs being concerned about the commitment of McCaffrey and Fournette. Both are expected to be top-10 picks. I wouldn't be surprised if the Panthers take one of them; their brass talk about both in glowing terms.
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So much for NFL GMs being concerned about the commitment of McCaffrey and Fournette. Both are expected to be top-10 picks. I wouldn't be surprised if the Panthers take one of them; their brass talk about both in glowing terms.
Absolutely not surprised either. For both of these guys, being healthy and giving their bodies the best chance to perform well at the combine and pre-draft workouts was far more important than any performance in a mid-tier bowl game.
They made the smart call. Other players and agents will take note.
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Not surprising. Compare and contrast with the draft prospects of Jake Butt. Star players blowing off mid-tier bowl games is going to become as common as underclassmen declaring for the NBA draft.
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
I would not.
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
I wouldn't. I won't guarantee it, though. I WOULD be shocked if either is still available when the Lions draft at 21.
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
I am not a draftnik at all. In fact, I hate the bloated, BS-filled, overhyped thing. But I am a Panthers fan and I have been reading a lot about their pick, which is 8th overall.
I would be shocked, stunned if at least one of them ISN'T a top-10 pick. Both might be.
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I wouldn't. I won't guarantee it, though. I WOULD be shocked if either is still available when the Lions draft at 21.
If either of them is available for the lions at 21, they are sure to be busts, Ehyn'a?
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If either of them is available for the lions at 21, they are sure to be busts, Ehyn'a?
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I will guarantee that any GM in this draft that takes a RB in the top 10 will be fired within three years.
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
Expect to be shocked, stunned.
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Expect to be shocked, stunned.
I understand where everyone is coming from, but it's beyond football stupid to waste a top 10 pick on either.
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I realize that this is the current mentality out there. Advanced analytics, passing game, yadayada. But mentalities are constantly evolving as the game evolves. Someone is going to make and win the argument that these two have the potential to be a franchise running back for the next few years. And that having one of them will give options to OC X or QB X that will give them an advantage. Just look at what Ezekiel Elliot was able to do for Dak Prescott.
Whether or not you or I embrace that philosophy is completely irrelevant. The siren call of a 1200-1400 yard rusher is very alluring. Someone is going to pounce, current philosophical zeitgeist be damned.
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I dont think there is such a thing as a franchise running back anymore. Maybe AP? Running backs are no longer lasting very long in the league, they have a good 2 or 3 years and then they are done. Eddie Lacy, Cj Spiller, Reggie Bush, etc.
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I understand where everyone is coming from, but it's beyond football stupid to waste a top 10 pick on either.
OK, why? Make a case.
I believe Jacksonsville will (and should) take Fournette 4th.
1. As Dallas showed last year, a young QB's best chance of success comes when he has the support of a quality running game. Same can be said for Cam Newton in 2011, and any other number of QBs who had early success (Roehtlisberger, Matt Ryan, etc.). Blake Bortles may very well end up a bust, but he's never had anything resembling a rushing game to help.
2. That's a franchise in desperate need of an identity. Bortles hasn't given it to him, and maybe won't. Yet another defensive player won't. A guy like Fournette absolutely could.
3. They've invested a ton of assets on defense in the past couple of years, both in draft and free agency. They need to improve the O.
4. Doug Marrone and Tom Coughlin both are big run game guys.
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OK, why? Make a case.
I believe Jacksonsville will (and should) take Fournette 4th.
1. As Dallas showed last year, a young QB's best chance of success comes when he has the support of a quality running game. Same can be said for Cam Newton in 2011, and any other number of QBs who had early success (Roehtlisberger, Matt Ryan, etc.). Blake Bortles may very well end up a bust, but he's never had anything resembling a rushing game to help.
2. That's a franchise in desperate need of an identity. Bortles hasn't given it to him, and maybe won't. Yet another defensive player won't. A guy like Fournette absolutely could.
3. They've invested a ton of assets on defense in the past couple of years, both in draft and free agency. They need to improve the O.
4. Doug Marrone and Tom Coughlin both are big run game guys.
Top 10 2016 NFL Rushing Leaders (draft #)
Elliott 4
Howard 150
Murray 71
Ajayi 149
Bell 48
McCoy 53
Johnson 86
Blount UFA
Freeman 103
Miller 97
The outlier in the group above is excellent...and ran behind the best offensive line in the NFL. The Jaguars offensive line is not.
If the Jags really want Fournette, that's fine. I'll strongly argue there isn't competition for his services in the top 10. They should do the smart thing and explore trade options at 12 (Browns) or early teens to get him, especially for a team looking at OJ Howard (who I believe will be the first offensive player taken).
Also, if you look at Tom Coughlin's draft philosophy, it's that you can never have enough young defensive ends.
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I will guarantee that any GM in this draft that takes a RB in the top 10 will be fired within three years.
Well, that's a different prediction from your earlier one, and we'll have to wait years to see if you were right.
We'll only have to wait a few days to see if you're "shocked, stunned" was right.
Regardless, the reason I bumped this was because some were saying that GMs would run from McCaffrey and Fournette because they skipped their bowl games. What actually is gonna happen, though, is that they are running from Jake Butt - who played in his bowl game, got hurt, and lost millions of guaranteed dollars because of it. But hey, he was a great "team player," so congrats!
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Well, that's a different prediction from your earlier one, and we'll have to wait years to see if you were right.
We'll only have to wait a few days to see if you're "shocked, stunned" was right.
Regardless, the reason I bumped this was because some were saying that GMs would run from McCaffrey and Fournette because they skipped their bowl games. What actually is gonna happen, though, is that they are running from Jake Butt - who played in his bowl game, got hurt, and lost millions of guaranteed dollars because of it. But hey, he was a great "team player," so congrats!
Oh I stand by my prediction and my reaction. Not backing down from either.
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Oh I stand by my prediction and my reaction. Not backing down from either.
In fairness, I guess you didn't predict that teams drafting in the top 10 would avoid any RB.
All you predicted was that you would be "shocked, stunned."
And so you will be. Great prediction!
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In fairness, I guess you didn't predict that teams drafting in the top 10 would avoid any RB.
All you predicted was that you would be "shocked, stunned."
And so you will be. Great prediction!
Comprehension my friend.
Check back with me in 2020, if said GM is still employed, congrats to you.
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Top 10 2016 NFL Rushing Leaders (draft #)
Elliott 4
Howard 150
Murray 71
Ajayi 149
Bell 48
McCoy 53
Johnson 86
Blount UFA
Freeman 103
Miller 97
This is a bit misleading, though, since a) few running backs have been taken early in recent years, and b) it's just a one-year snapshot.
If we go all the way back to 2015:
Peterson - 7th
Martin - 31st
Gurley - 10th
McFadden - 4th
Ivory - undrafted
L. Murray - 181st
Freeman - 103rd
Stewart - 13th
Gore - 65th
D. Williams - 27th
So, half of the top 10 were first round picks, including the top four.
For comparison's sake, only four of the top 10 rated QBs in 2015 were first-round picks, and five were last year. I don't think anyone would argue taking a QB in the first round is a fire-able offense, though.
Same for pass rushers ... only half of the top 10 in sacks last year were first-round picks.
Or receivers. Only three of last year's top 10 were first-round picks.
I'd argue that relative to the frequency with which they're drafted early compared with other positions, first-round RBs are doing quite well.
Also, if you look at Tom Coughlin's draft philosophy, it's that you can never have enough young defensive ends.
During his 12 years with the Giants, the team used two first-round picks on DEs, zero second-round picks on DEs, and three third-round picks on DEs. They drafted nine WRs with first-, second-, or third-round picks in that time, so maybe we should look for the Jags to take a wideout.
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This is a bit misleading, though, since a) few running backs have been taken early in recent years, and b) it's just a one-year snapshot.
If we go all the way back to 2015:
Peterson - 7th
Martin - 31st
Gurley - 10th
McFadden - 4th
Ivory - undrafted
L. Murray - 181st
Freeman - 103rd
Stewart - 13th
Gore - 65th
D. Williams - 27th
So, half of the top 10 were first round picks, including the top four.
For comparison's sake, only four of the top 10 rated QBs in 2015 were first-round picks, and five were last year. I don't think anyone would argue taking a QB in the first round is a fire-able offense, though.
Same for pass rushers ... only half of the top 10 in sacks last year were first-round picks.
Or receivers. Only three of last year's top 10 were first-round picks.
I'd argue that relative to the frequency with which they're drafted early compared with other positions, first-round RBs are doing quite well.
During his 12 years with the Giants, the team used two first-round picks on DEs, zero second-round picks on DEs, and three third-round picks on DEs. They drafted nine WRs with first-, second-, or third-round picks in that time, so maybe we should look for the Jags to take a wideout.
It's not misleading in the least, and if anything, you're proving my point.
Let's take a look at those guys that were in the Top 10 in 2015 that were also Top 10 draft picks and see how they did in 2016.
Petersen 132nd in rushing yds in 2016
Gurley 17th in rushing yds in 2016
McFadden 125th in rushing yds in 2016
Don't you find it curious about the few Top 10, let alone 1st round RB's over the last five years?
2012
Trent Richardson (3) out of football
Doug Martin (31)
David Wilson (32) out of football
2013
Zero taken in 1st round
2014
Zero taken in 1st round
2015
Todd Gurley (10)
Melvin Gordon (15)
Both the Rams (would have if not for Goff trade) and Chargers have top 10 picks in 2017 NFL draft
2016
Zeke Elliott (4)
Let's take a snapshot all the way back to 2014 to see the top 10 rushers and their draft positions.
Murray 71
McCoy 53
Bell 48
Lynch 12
Forte 44
Morris 173
Foster UFA
Gore 65
Lacy 61
Forsett 233
So we have 3 years with of data to go off of. Out of 30 rushing leaders, we have 3 that are top ten picks.
The point should be clear as day, you can find RBs anywhere.
Let's finish up on Tom Coughlin and look back at his drafts.
In the 2001 NFL draft, despite finishing 11th against the run the year before, the Jags take...Marcus Stround DL.
2005 Giants D line included Pro Bowler Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora (first team All Pro), and Michael Strahan (second team All Pro). With their first round pick in 2006, the NY Giants selected...DL Mathias Kiwanuka.
Here's Coughlin's quote following the 2006 NFL draft regarding the thought of drafting Kiwanuka: "You can never have too many pass rushers. Again we’ve fortified our defense. It may not have been a specific need as pinpointed prior to, but this is a guy who will pay huge dividends"
Over his last 5 drafts in NY, the top three positions Coughlin drafted: DB's and OL tied at 8, followed by DL at 6.
If I'm the Jags, and I'm staying at 4, hypothetically I'd much rather invest my draft capital in Solomon Thomas at #4 and Dalvin Cook at #35.
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It's not misleading in the least, and if anything, you're proving my point.
Let's take a look at those guys that were in the Top 10 in 2015 that were also Top 10 draft picks and see how they did in 2016.
Petersen 132nd in rushing yds in 2016
Gurley 17th in rushing yds in 2016
McFadden 125th in rushing yds in 2016
I don't want to go round and round with you here, but come on. One of these guys missed the whole season with injury, the other missed 15 games with injury, and the other was playing behind arguably the league's worst OL and the league's worst QB situation.
Don't you find it curious about the few Top 10, let alone 1st round RB's over the last five years?
No, the position has been devalued. Nobody has argued otherwise. And nobody has argued you can't find quality RBs anywhere in the draft. You're beating down straw men here.
The argument is whether drafting a RB in the top 10 is a stunning and/or fire-able event. I think it's less stunning than drafting, say, an interior OL or inside LB or TE in the top 10, and yet I don't think many would say drafting one of those positions in the top 10 ought to get you fired.
Over his last 5 drafts in NY, the top three positions Coughlin drafted: DB's and OL tied at 8, followed by DL at 6.
This is the case for every team in the NFL, not just the Giants, and thus proves nothing.
DBs, DLs and OLs always are the most selected position, in large part because teams carry so many of them compared to skill players. Most teams carry 4-5 RBs and 5 WRs, compared to and 8-10 OLs, DLs and DBs.
Which position do you think is going to be drafted more frequently? It's less a measure of position value than roster/lineup spots needing filling.
2016 Draft: 52 DBs, 41 OLs, 39 DLs, 36 LBs, 33 WRs, 23 RBs
2015 Draft: 47 DBs, 47 OLs, 39 DLs, 37 LBs, 34 WRs, 23 RBs
2014 Draft: 53 DBs, 45 OLs, 42 DLs, 34 LBs, 33 WRs, 22 RBs
2013 Draft: 52 DBs, 49 DLs, 41 OLs, 28 WRs, 27 LBs, 26 RBs
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1. As Dallas showed last year, a young QB's best chance of success comes when he has the support of a quality running game. Same can be said for Cam Newton in 2011, and any other number of QBs who had early success (Roehtlisberger, Matt Ryan, etc.). Blake Bortles may very well end up a bust, but he's never had anything resembling a rushing game to help.
Your assuming that the success on the part of the QB is due to the RB. I would contend that the success of both the QB and RB is due to a significantly improved OL.
There have been few (Barry Sanders is the only one that comes to mind) RB's that can have tremendous success despite a bad OL. Great RBs look average behind an average OL, and average RBs perform at the pro-bowl level behind a good OL.
I'd never waste a top 10 pick on an RB, because if you don't address the OL, they will be a flop.
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Top 10 picks are incredibly valuable assets, rewards for failure. If you're a GM in the top 10, more than likely you fall into one of two categories...new GM or on the brink of being fired. The NFL is a hard cap league, and the RB position clearly is devalued for two reasons: 1) Evolution of short passing game, and 2) RBs are easy to find. I didn't think I had to spell it out, it's clearly not a straw man argument, but the future missed opportunity costs in later seasons is what hurts you if you draft a RB early (unless you trade back to pick up assets in the process). Outside of the obvious in hitting on a QB, the best way for a lousy team to get better quick is to hit on drafting studs (on rookie contracts) at premium positions (Seahawks are perfect example). I've argued and shown you can get similar production at a cheaper cost by drafting a RB later. QB position is an outlier, that'll get any GM fired if they miss, but RB or even WR in the top 10 makes a GM very vulnerable. I'm deviating a bit here sure, but Kevin White will be Exhibit A if Ryan Pace is fired this offseason.
Enjoy the draft everybody.
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Top 10 picks are incredibly valuable assets, rewards for failure. If you're a GM in the top 10, more than likely you fall into one of two categories...new GM or on the brink of being fired. The NFL is a hard cap league, and the RB position clearly is devalued for two reasons: 1) Evolution of short passing game, and 2) RBs are easy to find. I didn't think I had to spell it out, it's clearly not a straw man argument, but the future missed opportunity costs in later seasons is what hurts you if you draft a RB early (unless you trade back to pick up assets in the process). Outside of the obvious in hitting on a QB, the best way for a lousy team to get better quick is to hit on drafting studs (on rookie contracts) at premium positions (Seahawks are perfect example). I've argued and shown you can get similar production at a cheaper cost by drafting a RB later. QB position is an outlier, that'll get any GM fired if they miss, but RB or even WR in the top 10 makes a GM very vulnerable. I'm deviating a bit here sure, but Kevin White will be Exhibit A if Ryan Pace is fired this offseason.
Enjoy the draft everybody.
I think most here understand why the running back position has become less important and a spot you can find a number of sufficient players at without needing to pay a huge price for. I don't think that changes the fact that you'll see a running back drafted in the top 10 this year.
I also don't think a single draft pick ever gets a GM fired. Usually it's quite a few personnel moves that result in a GM's failure.
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I think most here understand why the running back position has become less important and a spot you can find a number of sufficient players at without needing to pay a huge price for. I don't think that changes the fact that you'll see a running back drafted in the top 10 this year.
I also don't think a single draft pick ever gets a GM fired. Usually it's quite a few personnel moves that result in a GM's failure.
That's the point I'm making, the opportunities in the future change when you draft RB in the top 10. It's not the singular pick, it's the future things that occur (overspending on premium positions in free agency, figuring out the QB position, etc).
Look at the Rams (comparable to the Jags). PFF had Rams o-line 27 (Jags 22). Both have suspect QB's, albeit young. Gurley was 17th last year in rushing. Rams greatly overpaid for Goff last year. Where are they at as an organization now?
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Comprehension my friend.
Check back with me in 2020, if said GM is still employed, congrats to you.
I am predicting nothing. I want no congratulations on this subject, nor do I expect any. I don't know any GMs, and their employment situation is not something I spend much time contemplating. Nice guy that I am, I prefer that people not lose their jobs, regardless of their field of work.
All I'm saying is that the vast majority of draft predictors expect Fournette, McCaffrey or both to be top-10 picks. Kiper just moved McCaffrey ahead of Fournette. More and more mock drafts have Fournette going at No. 4 to Jacksonville, and then the Panthers taking McCaffrey at No. 8. ESPN just quoted a GM saying there is no way Fournette will go after No. 10. I don't even like the draft, but I do like the Panthers, so I read the articles written about them, and those articles include the above references.
You said you'd be shocked if a RB went in the top-10; several others (including me) responded by telling you to be prepared to be shocked.
You then brought in your guarantee of doom to any GM who drafts a RB high. So if 2 GMs lose their jobs by 2020, congrats to you!
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I am predicting nothing. I want no congratulations on this subject, nor do I expect any. I don't know any GMs, and their employment situation is not something I spend much time contemplating. Nice guy that I am, I prefer that people not lose their jobs, regardless of their field of work.
All I'm saying is that the vast majority of draft predictors expect Fournette, McCaffrey or both to be top-10 picks. Kiper just moved McCaffrey ahead of Fournette. More and more mock drafts have Fournette going at No. 4 to Jacksonville, and then the Panthers taking McCaffrey at No. 8. ESPN just quoted a GM saying there is no way Fournette will go after No. 10. I don't even like the draft, but I do like the Panthers, so I read the articles written about them, and those articles include the above references.
You said you'd be shocked if a RB went in the top-10; several others (including me) responded by telling you to be prepared to be shocked.
You then brought in your guarantee of doom to any GM who drafts a RB high. So if 2 GMs lose their jobs by 2020, congrats to you!
Cool dude.
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For what little its worth, regardless of the team that selects them, Fournette would be expected to get quite a few more carries than McCaffrey, wouldn't he? From what I've read, the intrigue on McCaffrey is using him in the slot and his receiving skills out of the backfield rather than as a runner. To the extent McCaffrey has been rising on draft boards, its primarily due to teams' interest in what he can do from a scheme perspective, and he therefore wouldn't be as useful a data point on the overall value of the RB position discussion.
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For what little its worth, regardless of the team that selects them, Fournette would be expected to get quite a few more carries than McCaffrey, wouldn't he? From what I've read, the intrigue on McCaffrey is using him in the slot and his receiving skills out of the backfield rather than as a runner. To the extent McCaffrey has been rising on draft boards, its primarily due to teams' interest in what he can do from a scheme perspective, and he therefore wouldn't be as useful a data point on the overall value of the RB position discussion.
This is my understanding as well.
One reason McCaffrey is being forecast to go to the Panthers by many is that they have a need for help in the backfield for somebody to complement Jonathan Stewart, at the slot receiver position and for punt/kickoff return men. McCaffrey is seen as addressing all of those needs with one pick, and I think there is hope that, in time, he could even develop into a feature back.
I am not predicting he'll be a star or even any good at any of the above. I'm just discussing what the Panthers' supposed interest in him is.
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Top 10 picks are incredibly valuable assets, rewards for failure. If you're a GM in the top 10, more than likely you fall into one of two categories...new GM or on the brink of being fired. The NFL is a hard cap league, and the RB position clearly is devalued for two reasons: 1) Evolution of short passing game, and 2) RBs are easy to find. I didn't think I had to spell it out, it's clearly not a straw man argument, but the future missed opportunity costs in later seasons is what hurts you if you draft a RB early (unless you trade back to pick up assets in the process). Outside of the obvious in hitting on a QB, the best way for a lousy team to get better quick is to hit on drafting studs (on rookie contracts) at premium positions (Seahawks are perfect example). I've argued and shown you can get similar production at a cheaper cost by drafting a RB later. QB position is an outlier, that'll get any GM fired if they miss, but RB or even WR in the top 10 makes a GM very vulnerable. I'm deviating a bit here sure, but Kevin White will be Exhibit A if Ryan Pace is fired this offseason.
Enjoy the draft everybody.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the devaluation of the RB position in the draft, etc., but this is where you lose me. Why do you seem to believe that missing on a RB (or WR, it seems) in the top 10 is somehow a more grievous sin than missing on an OT or DE?
It's probably worth noting here that as the RB position has been devalued, teams are missing - and will continue to miss - less often on RB prospects. Because they're going to be really certain before investing a high pick in a back.
Just the opposite has occurred over the past couple of decades as the OT and DE positions have gained value. Teams are grabbing guys at those positions in the top 10 who have no business being top 10 picks, and thus we're seeing a lot of OTs in particular bust.
For every Trent Richardson, I'll give you a Greg Robinson, a Jason Smith, a Matt Kalil and a Luke Joeckel. For every CJ Spiller, I'll give you a Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo, Vernon Gholston and Gaines Adams.
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Cool dude.
When two of your favorite posters are fighting :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
(http://www.thedailytop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/75f4b2c3ca32b30ccab7dc3c0f0a37c81.gif)
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the devaluation of the RB position in the draft, etc., but this is where you lose me. Why do you seem to believe that missing on a RB (or WR, it seems) in the top 10 is somehow a more grievous sin than missing on an OT or DE?
It's probably worth noting here that as the RB position has been devalued, teams are missing - and will continue to miss - less often on RB prospects. Because they're going to be really certain before investing a high pick in a back.
Just the opposite has occurred over the past couple of decades as the OT and DE positions have gained value. Teams are grabbing guys at those positions in the top 10 who have no business being top 10 picks, and thus we're seeing a lot of OTs in particular bust.
For every Trent Richardson, I'll give you a Greg Robinson, a Jason Smith, a Matt Kalil and a Luke Joeckel. For every CJ Spiller, I'll give you a Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo, Vernon Gholston and Gaines Adams.
This is a great point but you know as well as I do that most people fall asleep even thinking about linemen, especially offensive linemen and defensive tackles. RBs are "exciting" picks and, like QBs, get more attention. When one performs well, fans say, "Why didn't we draft him?" And when one is a bust, fans spew the hate.
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When two of your favorite posters are fighting :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
(http://www.thedailytop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/75f4b2c3ca32b30ccab7dc3c0f0a37c81.gif)
I didn't even know we were fighting.
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the devaluation of the RB position in the draft, etc., but this is where you lose me. Why do you seem to believe that missing on a RB (or WR, it seems) in the top 10 is somehow a more grievous sin than missing on an OT or DE?
It's probably worth noting here that as the RB position has been devalued, teams are missing - and will continue to miss - less often on RB prospects. Because they're going to be really certain before investing a high pick in a back.
Just the opposite has occurred over the past couple of decades as the OT and DE positions have gained value. Teams are grabbing guys at those positions in the top 10 who have no business being top 10 picks, and thus we're seeing a lot of OTs in particular bust.
For every Trent Richardson, I'll give you a Greg Robinson, a Jason Smith, a Matt Kalil and a Luke Joeckel. For every CJ Spiller, I'll give you a Dion Jordan, Barkevious Mingo, Vernon Gholston and Gaines Adams.
That was my exact thought as well. There will be bad picks made/busts in every round, at every position, and by every team over time. Missing on first round picks, regardless of what position that pick was at, will hurt just the same. Picking Derrick Sherrod in the first round is no better than picking Trent Richardson in the first round.
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So I actually subscribe a bit to the theory that its not as bad to miss on Sherrod as Richardson (the reasons the players were mis-evaluated being equal). By and large, the success of a RB is seen as the effect, not the cause. Sure a RB can't be godawful and have a good year, but generally speaking, their success is the product of their environment. If you're picking near the top of the draft, unless its due to a key injury the year before (Cowboys & Romo) or you traded up, chances are its because your environment isn't very good. You've got to build from the ground up, and unless you have a generational talent like Dickerson, Sanders or Peterson, your RB isn't going to save you and in fact, your crappy line will make it more difficult to evaluate what you have in him.
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For the record, I'm really enjoying this discussion, I like the back and forth and perspective. If my thoughts on this go down in flames, I'll own it. I also happen to like this draft a lot, I think this one in particular (especially the top 12 picks) have a ton of smokescreens going on and a lot of intrigue. For fun's sake, if a RB goes top 10, I'll donate $20 to Ronald McDonald House Eastern Wisconsin. I'm happy to be wrong in that instance.
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For the record, I'm really enjoying this discussion, I like the back and forth and perspective. If my thoughts on this go down in flames, I'll own it. I also happen to like this draft a lot, I think this one in particular (especially the top 12 picks) have a ton of smokescreens going on and a lot of intrigue. For fun's sake, if a RB goes top 10, I'll donate $20 to Ronald McDonald House Eastern Wisconsin. I'm happy to be wrong in that instance.
Same here.
I'm a total draft dork, especially NFL draft, and enjoy the (friendly, I think/hope) debate.
I'll match your donation if a RB doesn't go in the top 10. Though I'll like choose a RM House closer to home.
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Same here.
I'm a total draft dork, especially NFL draft, and enjoy the (friendly, I think/hope) debate.
I'll match your donation if a RB doesn't go in the top 10. Though I'll like choose a RM House closer to home.
All in fun, and I apologize to MU82 if he took offense. Reading it back, I certainly see why that conversation went down the road it did, and it's my fault. He was just reading up on the draft and taking an interest in his team, zero fault there, and I took a sentence he stated, and I shouldn't have quoted him, I should have made it a side conversation.
I love the draft because it's an art of science meeting luck (I'm guessing that's the proper word here). A lot of sports is "what if?", and I love looking back at previous drafts to see where guys went, who passed them up, and the current state of that team today.
I have no clue at all what the Bears will do at 3. I think Solomon Thomas is my favorite player in this draft, I think Jamal Adams is the safest (in a good way) player in the draft. Also, I'm curious if the Jets trade out at 6 for a first rounder next year, as I think they're focused more on next year's draft (Darnold) than being good in 2017. I'm also interested to see if the stock I bought in Myles Garrett is a bad investment.
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I have no clue at all what the Bears will do at 3. I think Solomon Thomas is my favorite player in this draft, I think Jamal Adams is the safest (in a good way) player in the draft. Also, I'm curious if the Jets trade out at 6 for a first rounder next year, as I think they're focused more on next year's draft (Darnold) than being good in 2017. I'm also interested to see if the stock I bought in Myles Garrett is a bad investment.
So, just to show you what a dork I am, me and a group of six other like-minded fans hold an NFL Draft party every year, including a mock draft competition (winner gets a case of beer of their choosing, paid for by everyone else).
Anyhow, I started work on my draft yesterday, but couldn't get past the Bears because there are so many logical ways they can go. Adams probably is the best and safest DB in the draft, but SS seems to be the only secondary position where the Bears are set. Lattimore to me is a huge boom-or-bust candidate, and while he fills a need, can Pace/Fox afford the risk? Hooker is the best free safety and a much-needed ballhawk, but is he a reach at #3? Allen seems a logical pick, but how worried are the Bears about his shoulders?
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So, just to show you what a dork I am, me and a group of six other like-minded fans hold an NFL Draft party every year, including a mock draft competition (winner gets a case of beer of their choosing, paid for by everyone else).
Anyhow, I started work on my draft yesterday, but couldn't get past the Bears because there are so many logical ways they can go. Adams probably is the best and safest DB in the draft, but SS seems to be the only secondary position where the Bears are set. Lattimore to me is a huge boom-or-bust candidate, and while he fills a need, can Pace/Fox afford the risk? Hooker is the best free safety and a much-needed ballhawk, but is he a reach at #3? Allen seems a logical pick, but how worried are the Bears about his shoulders?
This is so spot on the money. I'm hoping Thomas falls to 3 for that reason (plus I love him). It might have been Stanford's bowl game (or a late season Pac 12 game), but I remember watching Thomas play and thinking holy $hit, that kid can play, where is he on draft boards?
The way out of left field pick for the Bears would be to take OJ Howard at 3. I realize it makes zero sense, and to my RB point, it's nuts to take a TE top 5 (let alone top 10). I personally think Howard is the best offensive player in the draft, and I believe whatever team drafts him will have traded up to get him. I don't think they'll take Howard at all at #3, but with where they are at as a team, and lacking playmakers, might they think about it?
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This is so spot on the money. I'm hoping Thomas falls to 3 for that reason (plus I love him). It might have been Stanford's bowl game (or a late season Pac 12 game), but I remember watching Thomas play and thinking holy $hit, that kid can play, where is he on draft boards?
The way out of left field pick for the Bears would be to take OJ Howard at 3. I realize it makes zero sense, and to my RB point, it's nuts to take a TE top 5 (let alone top 10). I personally think Howard is the best offensive player in the draft, and I believe whatever team drafts him will have traded up to get him. I don't think they'll take Howard at all at #3, but with where they are at as a team, and lacking playmakers, might they think about it?
I love Howard.
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This is so spot on the money. I'm hoping Thomas falls to 3 for that reason (plus I love him). It might have been Stanford's bowl game (or a late season Pac 12 game), but I remember watching Thomas play and thinking holy $hit, that kid can play, where is he on draft boards?
The way out of left field pick for the Bears would be to take OJ Howard at 3. I realize it makes zero sense, and to my RB point, it's nuts to take a TE top 5 (let alone top 10). I personally think Howard is the best offensive player in the draft, and I believe whatever team drafts him will have traded up to get him. I don't think they'll take Howard at all at #3, but with where they are at as a team, and lacking playmakers, might they think about it?
It was the Sun Bowl against UNC that Thomas absolutely dominated. I'm with you guys on Thomas, would love to have him get past the 49ers. Bears were so close to having Leonard Williams and Aaron Donald fall to them in recent drafts.
I don't think picking Howard at #3 is crazy at all. In the top-10, especially top-5, teams should be looking for guys that have the traits/ability to become a top 2 or 3 play-maker at their position. Howard definitely has that. Now compare him to a guy like Adams.
While Adams looks like a safe pick, does he really have the ball-skills necessary to be a difference maker? I would say no.
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Dish, any truth to the rumors that the Bears really like Watson and may look to trade up to get him in the late first?
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Dish, any truth to the rumors that the Bears really like Watson and may look to trade up to get him in the late first?
I don't know, I've heard for months they love Kaaya, and I just can't see Pace trading up (at least in rounds 1 or 2) for anyone. I have no idea what to make of where any of these QB's go, you could tell me four go in round 1 or zero go in round 1, and I'd buy into both.
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I don't know, I've heard for months they love Kaaya, and I just can't see Pace trading up (at least in rounds 1 or 2) for anyone. I have no idea what to make of where any of these QB's go, you could tell me four go in round 1 or zero go in round 1, and I'd buy into both.
Yeah, between the Bears' many holes to fill and Glennon's signing, it makes little sense for them to give up picks move back into the first for a QB this year.
A developmental guy who might be there in the 3rd/4th (Kaaya, Webb, Peterman, Dobbs) might make sense, depending on how much they like him.
One of my draft surprises is Mahomes going in the top 20. I also think he'll be a bust. For some reason he reeks of JP Losman to me.
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Yeah, between the Bears' many holes to fill and Glennon's signing, it makes little sense for them to give up picks move back into the first for a QB this year.
A developmental guy who might be there in the 3rd/4th (Kaaya, Webb, Peterman, Dobbs) might make sense, depending on how much they like him.
I think Bears trade down at #36. Pace has talked a lot of the value of stock-piling picks and #36 will be much easier to move than #3.
Wildcard for the Bears is John Fox. What's he thinking and advocating? It seems that the family has given Pace a long leash and is willing to have some patience with him. But, is that the same for Fox?
If the Bears pick a QB #3 or trade-up into the first round for one, there will be pressure (a ton) to play him from the fans, media, etc. Does that jive with John Fox's desires? Does he need 7 wins or more to keep his job this season?
If so, Fox's best bet is on Glennon and an improved defense. If this is a make or break season for Fox, having a high pick breathing down Glennon's neck is hardily a recipe for success.
Also, the Bears' September schedule is brutal. They're looking at 1-3 start with 0-4 being very, very possible. Say they pick Watson at #3 and they are 0-4 ending September. The calls to play him will be deafening.
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Yeah, between the Bears' many holes to fill and Glennon's signing, it makes little sense for them to give up picks move back into the first for a QB this year.
A developmental guy who might be there in the 3rd/4th (Kaaya, Webb, Peterman, Dobbs) might make sense, depending on how much they like him.
One of my draft surprises is Mahomes going in the top 20. I also think he'll be a bust. For some reason he reeks of JP Losman to me.
I think I saw Charlie Casserly had Webb going in round 1. I'm officially mock draft out after seeing that.
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All in fun, and I apologize to MU82 if he took offense. Reading it back, I certainly see why that conversation went down the road it did, and it's my fault. He was just reading up on the draft and taking an interest in his team, zero fault there, and I took a sentence he stated, and I shouldn't have quoted him, I should have made it a side conversation.
I love the draft because it's an art of science meeting luck (I'm guessing that's the proper word here). A lot of sports is "what if?", and I love looking back at previous drafts to see where guys went, who passed them up, and the current state of that team today.
I have no clue at all what the Bears will do at 3. I think Solomon Thomas is my favorite player in this draft, I think Jamal Adams is the safest (in a good way) player in the draft. Also, I'm curious if the Jets trade out at 6 for a first rounder next year, as I think they're focused more on next year's draft (Darnold) than being good in 2017. I'm also interested to see if the stock I bought in Myles Garrett is a bad investment.
No offense taken, Dish.
Now go donate that 20 bucks regardless of who goes where in the draft!
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We'll continue this as the draft talk thread, I assume that's cool with everyone.
I've heard the Browns are eyeing the #3 pick, a lot of people think the Browns will trade up from 12 to get a QB. Hypothetically it would typically cost the Browns 12, 33, 53 if you use the Jimmy Johnson trade chart. If that offer gets on the table to the Bears, I would sprint to the phone to call it in.
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All night, I've heard Trubisky is going 1. The Schefter stuff from this week was all weird, McGinn has him going 1 too. Way too much smoke here.
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All night, I've heard Trubisky is going 1. The Schefter stuff from this week was all weird, McGinn has him going 1 too. Way too much smoke here.
Cleveland will not take Trubisky #1.
At most, they're softening things up for a possible trade out of the #1 spot so they can claim they got the guy (Trubisky) they wanted all along and they would have taken him at #1 if they hadn't traded out.
Either that or they're laying the groundwork to give up a ton to move back into the top 10 after picking Garett first.
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Cleveland will not take Trubisky #1.
At most, they're softening things up for a possible trade out of the #1 spot so they can claim they got the guy (Trubisky) they wanted all along and they would have taken him at #1 if they hadn't traded out.
Either that or they're laying the groundwork to give up a ton to move back into the top 10 after picking Garett first.
I don't disagree with you, but both Schefter and McGinn saying he goes 1 makes me go...hmm.
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Betting markets are plummeting on Garrett going #1.
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Betting markets are plummeting on Garrett going #1.
Could Garrett fall past the 49ers? Wishful thinking of course.
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Awful, awful, awful.
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All that for Trubisky!
Has Chicago become Cleveland?
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LOL!!!!!!!
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I'm done. Unf*cking believeable.
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Can I post an obscenity filled rant without getting in trouble here?
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Can I post an obscenity filled rant without getting in trouble here?
Time to become a Packer fan dish.
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Can I post an obscenity filled rant without getting in trouble here?
Please do.
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Can I post an obscenity filled rant without getting in trouble here?
I'm, I'm just sorry.
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As a Browns fan who was kind of hoping they'd get Trubisky later in the draft...wow. No 2? Wow. I thought the Browns would be reaching at 12, but...wow.
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Tribusky's mom though! holla
Bear down
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Thanks to the bears, the pressure is off the Lions for the worst pick of the first round.
Shocked by Davis this early, too. O think he will be good, but 5?
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Thanks to the bears, the pressure is off the Lions for the worst pick of the first round.
Don't forget the Browns still have another first round pick. They could still top it.
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I waited up until 1:00 AM to watch the Bears move up and take Mitch fu**ing Trubisky...
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Sorry Chi!
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/mDt9GRDk6ynPW/giphy.gif)
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McCaffrey #8
next up, number noine
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I would be shocked, stunned if either is a top 10 pick.
So both were selected in top 10.
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Dish, not your best night.
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Can I post an obscenity filled rant without getting in trouble here?
Just do it in 4everonics and no one will know.
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Please do.
This is taking him a while. Expectations are high.
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I guess McC and Fournette would have been 1 and 2 had they not skipped their bowl games.
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John Lynch, 49ers rookie GM, fleeced the Bears to move down one spot in the NFL Draft
The 49ers got their man. And a bunch of other men, too.
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/4/27/15462912/2017-nfl-draft-john-lynch-49ers-bears-trade
WATCH: Bears fans upset at Mitchell Trubisky selection in NFL Draft
http://www.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2017/04/watch_bears_fans_upset_at_mitchell_trubisky_select.html
@darrenrovell
The Chicago Bears will be guaranteeing about $47 million to Mike Glennon and Mitch Trubisky.
And to think we all thought Cutler was too much money. All of a sudden Jay looks like a downright bargain.
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So both were selected in top 10.
Now's not really a good time...
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Dish, not your best night.
How many Xanax are too many?
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What Bears fans really want in their QB
(https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/screen-shot-2017-04-27-at-5-48-14-pm.jpg?w=500&h=215)
(https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/screen-shot-2017-04-27-at-5-48-14-pm.jpg?w=500&h=215)
(https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/screen-shot-2017-04-27-at-5-48-27-pm.jpg?w=500&h=215)
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Don't forget the Browns still have another first round pick. They could still top it.
Or maybe not. It's a banner year; it doesn't appear that the Browns screwed up their first round pick. Too early to know if the trade is good.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-dcTXiWsAEE-Qn.jpg)
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-dcTXiWsAEE-Qn.jpg)
We get it Heise.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-diYOIXoAAMmKr.jpg)
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McCaffery isn't a running back alone. Slot receiver, kick returner. He will be a nightmare matchup for linebackers. Great pick.
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Mike Adamle, Northwestern football player (and long time Chicago sportscaster) reminds us how much the draft has changed
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-dwaYGXsAEGfPr.jpg:small)
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Mike Adamle, Northwestern football player (and long time Chicago sportscaster) reminds us how much the draft has changed
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-dwaYGXsAEGfPr.jpg:small)
Loyola or Regina?
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-dcTXiWsAEE-Qn.jpg)
I do too
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Is it encouraging or discouraging if you're the Falcons and your #1 pick is losing his mind on stage?
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McCaffery isn't a running back alone. Slot receiver, kick returner. He will be a nightmare matchup for linebackers. Great pick.
As a Panthers fan, I hope so.
I approve of the pick. Makes a lot of sense for them.
Too bad for Panthers GM Dave Gettleman that he'll be fired before 2020, as per MU Dish, who is "surprised, shocked" by two RBs going in the top 8 even though pretty much every expert said that's exactly what would happen.
All in good fun, bud!
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Is it encouraging or discouraging if you're the Falcons and your #1 pick is losing his mind on stage?
Love the mommy sandwich board...
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See attached.
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See attached.
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See attached.
You're a good man, Dish. Definitely a much more productive response to your disappointment than a obscenity filled rant. Perhaps not as entertaining for the rest of us, but definitely better. Perspective is a good thing. Continued best wishes to Bradley and the family.
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Way to go Dish! RMH is a wonderful charity. My wife and I stayed in the one in Milwaukee for 2 weeks when our late son was at Children's Hospital of WI. Hard to believe it's been almost 5 years.
They gave us so much at a very difficult time for our family. Being close meant so much to me and my wife. It also made things much easier for us being our home away from home, especially since we live in Madison.
Best of wishes to Bradley. Hope his health stays strong.
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The sentiment is nice, and I appreciate it, but I was wrong and needed to own it. I don't agree with taking RB's early, but I put myself on the line, and not just one, but two went top 10. You guys were right to call me out on it.
After watching that draft last night, I feel like I don't know anything anymore.
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The sentiment is nice, and I appreciate it, but I was wrong and needed to own it. I don't agree with taking RB's early, but I put myself on the line, and not just one, but two went top 10. You guys were right to call me out on it.
After watching that draft last night, I feel like I don't know anything anymore.
Agreed. It's like the NCAA Tournament. The years I have watched more basketball and really try to look into what picks I should be making I do awful and the years where I decide, "Well, it's just going to end horribly anyway so I'm just going on gut instinct and sticking with it" are the years I actually win some money.
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The sentiment is nice, and I appreciate it, but I was wrong and needed to own it. I don't agree with taking RB's early, but I put myself on the line, and not just one, but two went top 10. You guys were right to call me out on it.
After watching that draft last night, I feel like I don't know anything anymore.
Actually, I had forgotten (or maybe not realized) that there was actually a bet on that. I was totally focused on your disappointment regarding Trubisky to the Bears, and not on the RBs. I wasn't part of that conversation. I thought that you just directed your frustration to a more productive outlet. I've known some people who when they are really upset, rather than lashing out, they try to do something productive. I thought that's what was going on.
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Actually, I had forgotten (or maybe not realized) that there was actually a bet on that. I was totally focused on your disappointment regarding Trubisky to the Bears, and not on the RBs. I wasn't part of that conversation. I thought that you just directed your frustration to a more productive outlet. I've known some people who when they are really upset, rather than lashing out, they try to do something productive. I thought that's what was going on.
I should be more pious, and I did actually take a walk last night instead of ranting and raving about Trubisky. If nothing else, I think my wife appreciated it.
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Dish-
I agree that the RB position has been devalued. McCaffrey is a nice player but he's basically Ty Montgomery or Reggie Bush. Curtis Samuel gives you a lot of the same stuff available later. So I don't think McCaffrey should have been a top 10 pick.
But I also read all the reports about Carolina loving him and targeting him at number 8. So even though I disagree with their selection, I was not shocked by it either.
Fournette I'm not sure about. Will he be Adrian Peterson, Trent Richardson, or something in between? He could be good but I'm not enamored with him. But again, everything signaled him going top 10.
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Dish-
I agree that the RB position has been devalued. McCaffrey is a nice player but he's basically Ty Montgomery or Reggie Bush. Curtis Samuel gives you a lot of the same stuff available later. So I don't think McCaffrey should have been a top 10 pick.
But I also read all the reports about Carolina loving him and targeting him at number 8. So even though I disagree with their selection, I was not shocked by it either.
Fournette I'm not sure about. Will he be Adrian Peterson, Trent Richardson, or something in between? He could be good but I'm not enamored with him. But again, everything signaled him going top 10.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said shocked/surprised. I should have formulated my argument differently, it was dumb contrarian meatball of me.
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After watching that draft last night, I feel like I don't know anything anymore.
Aw, don't be so hard on yourself, kid. You never knew anything!
Just kidding ... saw an opportunity for a dumb line and took it. Very classy of you to make that gift to RMH. My wife is a pediatric nurse here in Charlotte and has had many dealings with our RMH - they do great work.
I also don't know if the RBs will succeed. Given that my favorite team drafted one of them, I sure hope so. But I also don't know if the first QB taken will succeed. Nor do I know if any of the OL taken will succeed. Like the NCAA tourney ... a crapshoot, hey?
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I hope next year a couple of dozen players sit out their bowl games. I'd love to see Alabama lose the semifinal game because their top five or six players sit.
I wouldn't even be surprised if they sit out their conference championship game. Look at the Bears draft pick Trubisky, he only started 13 games and that was enough to be the number 2 player in the draft. So just play 6 to 8 games prove what you are and shut it down.
It's the right thing to do for your family and your career. And if enough players do it it'll force necessary change in college football
http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/236866/2017-nfl-draft-takeaways-why-more-prospects-will-skip-bowl-games
If it wasn't obvious before, it should be now: Well-regarded prospects have nothing to gain from a professional standpoint and everything to lose by playing in an otherwise meaningless college bowl game. His participation in the bowl game can cost him millions of dollars. The 2017 draft provides a succinct explanation.
Running backs Leonard Fournette (LSU) and Christian McCaffrey (Stanford) both skipped their final college games to preserve their health. Did NFL teams question their commitment or love for the game? Hardly. They were among the first eight players drafted, to the Jacksonville Jaguars and Carolina Panthers, respectively.
On the other hand is the case of Michigan tight end Jake Butt, who suffered a torn ACL in the Orange Bowl. Before the injury, you could quite comfortably call him a top-50 prospect, meaning he could have been drafted in the first round, but no later than the middle of the second. Based on 2016's rookie scale, Butt would have been guaranteed about $2.8 million if he had been drafted at No. 50 overall.
The ACL injury knocked him down to Saturday's fifth round, where he was selected at No. 145. Based on last season's scale, he can expect guarantees of around $260,000. So even after collecting on an insurance policy ESPN's Darren Rovell reported would bring him $543,000, he is still roughly $2 million short of where he would have been.
In truth, the only time a bowl game is important to a player's evaluation is when it represents a rare chance to see him play against better competition or a bigger conference. Otherwise, it is a financial risk absorbed by the player for the benefit of his school's coffers.