MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: rocky_warrior on December 06, 2016, 09:30:36 PM
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After Luke gets 3, or even 2 fouls, he stops playing defense. I mean, he's not the best defender in the first place, but he goes all matador trying to avoid additional fouls.
JB says Luke doesn't have a foul problem, I say our defense suffers when Luke gets 2+ fouls.
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After Luke gets 3, or even 2 fouls, he stops playing defense. I mean, he's not the best defender in the first place, but he goes all matador trying to avoid additional fouls.
JB says Luke doesn't have a foul problem, I say our defense suffers when Luke gets 2+ fouls.
Then Matt needs to play more.
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Or Luke just needs to stop making stupid fouls. (Disclaimer, I didn't get to watch this game)
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Nothing good ever comes of it when they ask Fischer to play defense 20 feet away from the basket.
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The problem could be that we often expect more of Luke than he's capable of. He's done a good job IMO.
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Luke would be just fine if the other four starters were named James, McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward.
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Luke would be just fine if the other four starters were named James, McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward.
I do think that is a fair point.
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Nothing good ever comes of it when they ask Fischer to play defense 20 feet away from the basket.
I think that's the key. I wish they would either stop doing that or find a way for Luke to recover better.
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It reminds me a bit of De Wilson -- for some reason we keep putting him in position to accentuate the worst parts about his game - particularly on D for luke.
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Carter is just a wide body horse who had a good night. A lot of Luke's fouls come from help on the pick and roll. The pick, the roll, Luke is guarding a small while shuffling with his hands straight up. The driving small initiates contact and because Luke is sliding and not an agile defender in space, the offensive player gets the call. Smart offense. This ALL goes back to how MU defends the high pick and roll.
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Carter is just a wide body horse who had a good night. A lot of Luke's fouls come from help on the pick and roll. The pick, the roll, Luke is guarding a small while shuffling with his hands straight up. The driving small initiates contact and because Luke is sliding and not an agile defender in space, the offensive player gets the call. Smart offense. This ALL goes back to how MU defends the high pick and roll.
Yep. Would it kill us to play some zone?
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Yep. Would it kill us to play some zone?
It actually might. They want the pace to be high. They want to create steals and turnovers. Hard to do with a zone.
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It actually might. They want the pace to be high. They want to create steals and turnovers. Hard to do with a zone.
Truth in that. We're at our best when we're getting defensive deflections/steals and runouts.
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JB says Luke doesn't have a foul problem, I say our defense suffers when Luke gets 2+ fouls.
He doesn't foul a ton is the truth. Is him picking up just 2 fouls an issue because of him mentally? Oh, that sure could be.
Tonight he played 31 minutes. Fouls didn't keep him off the floor - my issue is when people claim he can't stay on the floor. Do fouls negatively affect his play more than the avg player? Could be. That's an issue -- how addressable is it? That's a case by case matter - coaches, player
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I get the feeling that Wojo will be recruiting bigs with more mobility from now on. Like John. I also get the feeling that John won't have the same issues with the pick and roll hedge that Luke does.
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Luke is performing well this year. He is up in every major category. The guy has a big burden on his shoulders and he is handling it well.
Over the years I have noted when a team only has one true quality big the tension on foul trouble is increased. Look at Michigan State for example they have always seem to have lots of Big Bodies so no one guy ever matters that much.
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I didn't mean this at a slight to Luke. The opponents D has to respect his offense. And I think he plays good defense until he gets 2-3 fouls (depending on time left in game). After that, he just plays semi-disruptive (but not really) defense. I'd rather he fouls out playing 25 minutes of tough defense, than what we've been seeing. His teammates try to cover for him, but that just leaves another man open.
I don't know if the answer is 25 minutes of Luke (max D and 5 fouls) + 15 min of Heldt. But I'd like to see if our D looks better without a timid Luke for > half the game.
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Heldt is getting incrementally serviceable each game he plays. They may be small increments, but the trajectory is up and to the right.
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Heldt is getting incrementally serviceable each game he plays. They may be small increments, but the trajectory is up and to the right.
He was eaten alive in the second half.
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The killer with Luke is that one of his fouls almost always is a moving screen and another is 20+ feet away from the basket when he is hedging on a little guy.
I don't mind my big getting some good hard fouls trying to defend my hoop. It frosts my fritters when my big gets those 2 fouls almost every game.
Some are his fault, some are just him being put in a poor situation. I am one Scooper who thinks Wojo is doing a good jbo, but I do wish he'd stop having Luke chase guards 25 feet from the hoop and I also wish he'd occasionally run a double-team at the other team's post player.
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He was eaten alive in the second half.
So was Luke on D
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To some degree the blame goes to Wojo. If he is telling Luke to avoid fouls so much that he doesn't play defense, then don't leave him in the game. If Fischer was busy putting up 30 points and grabbing 14 boards it would be a different story.
However, if he is scoring 17 and getting 5 boards but cannot play defense due to fouls then I say you take him out of the game until you are comfortable that he can play sufficient defense and if a foul comes so be it.
When Luke first came to Marquette he used to get more blocks and swipe at more shots. This was good for defense. I have noticed he rarely swipes any more. Great for avoiding fouls but the defense is not afraid of Luke's size since they know he is not going to try to block it.
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If he is telling Luke to avoid fouls so much that he doesn't play defense, then don't leave him in the game. If Fischer was busy putting up 30 points and grabbing 14 boards it would be a different story.
... the defense (SIC)is not afraid of Luke's size since they know he is not going to try to block it.
Luke still has a 5% blk%, putting him around #200 in the nation. "Not going to block it" would be a bizarre thought by an opposing offense
Second, I think you underestimate the productivity of Luke's offense & its importance to the team. People don't put up 30 points a night in college bball... but Luke is putting up 138 Ortg on 21% usage. Very important, his offense
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Luke had a great defensive play in the second half, getting a big block down low then a foul on the follow-up shot after an offensive rebound. The crowd didn't like the call. But I don't mind a foul in that situation. Luke was close to getting two straight blocks. And why give the other team easy shots down low? Make them earn it at the line (where Fresno State's big guys actually missed some shots).
That said, while Matt has clearly stepped up, there's a huge drop-off in terms of offensive production and efficiency when Luke comes out of the game. We need him on the court. He demands attention from defenders on the blocks, which opens things up for everyone else. That's the balancing act.
I'd point out that Luke's defensive rebounding percentage is far and away a career high. I've also been watching how the team hedges/switches on screens. I think there's been some improvement here, including Luke. We'll see how much better they can get.
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He can't jump! How often does he win the tip off?
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Or Luke just needs to stop making stupid fouls. (Disclaimer, I didn't get to watch this game)
Luke has pretty much elimited the stupid reaching fouls he got last year. However, in last nights game his first foul was for not setting a proper pick. The coaching staff should concentrate very hard on this, because we cannot afford Fischer getting called for fouls on picks.
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He can't jump! How often does he win the tip off?
It's official- Luke is officially the anit-Chris Otule. Great offensively, middling defensively, and can't even win the tip, one of MUScoop's favorite aspect of what Christ brought to the table.
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The problem with Luke is (A) the scheme and (B) his teammates. If the other 4 guys on the floor were DJames, Blue, Butler, and Crowder, the team would have the same height it has now, but how different would the defense look? The best defensive play of the night came with Duane flashing through and contesting at the rim. Duane. Contesting at the rim. Duane. Contesting at the rim.
KR is a decent on-ball defender, as is HC, but right now neither one can put the ball in the lake. Rowsey and Markus are 5'10. JjJ gets steals, but is not a lock down defender. Sam is fundamentally sound but frequently physically overmatched. Everyone is guarding somebody bigger than they are out of necessity. And none of them have a junkyard dog mentality.
The one thing I will say about the defense is that MU is usually doing a good job of defensive rebounding. Of course there are outliers, but in general, it has not been the game-in, game-out weakness I feared.
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Wojo's defensive scheme might fit his vision, but it doesn't fit this roster. None of their guards are good enough on-ball defenders to guard 30 feet from the hoop. Neither big is quick enough to stay with a guard/wing on a drive after (inexplicably) switching on a screen. Luke is in no-mans land when he gets outside the paint, which leaves zero rim protection when the guards get beat off the bounce.
With this team, he needs to pack it in a bit. Pick guys up at the three point line. Hard show on the ball screens and get the hell back to the paint. Help Luke and Matt out with a hard double on a post catch. I know the emphasis is on turning teams over, but I'd trade turnovers for better 2PT FG defense.
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Wojo's defensive scheme might fit his vision, but it doesn't fit this roster. None of their guards are good enough on-ball defenders to guard 30 feet from the hoop. Neither big is quick enough to stay with a guard/wing on a drive after (inexplicably) switching on a screen. Luke is in no-mans land when he gets outside the paint, which leaves zero rim protection when the guards get beat off the bounce.
With this team, he needs to pack it in a bit. Pick guys up at the three point line. Hard show on the ball screens and get the hell back to the paint. Help Luke and Matt out with a hard double on a post catch. I know the emphasis is on turning teams over, but I'd trade turnovers for better 2PT FG defense.
The scheme has to fit the players and their talent - not the other way around. Buzz used to say that every year was like building a house and the architect had to fit the plans to the materials available. The art of coaching.
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Kept waiting for the double team on Carter the whole second half.
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This does raise an interesting question. Even you are rebuilding do you use the defense that fits your personnel? Or do you teach the defense that your program will eventually be known for? Is Wojo teaching this defense because he wants the younger guys to have it mastered rather than having to teach a new defense every year? Is it better to be Buzz or Boeheim?
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In this case, maybe the vision needs some readjusting. Sure, Duke plays an extended pressure man defense, and it's worked quite well for them over the years. Duke also routinely gets some of the best recruits in terms of the overall package of bball IQ, skill, size, and athleticism. As good of recruiters as our staff might be, MU is not going to attract the same caliber players, so the scheme is not going to work as well. Certainly not now, probably not ever.
With this group in particular, I don't see the need to extend the defense so much. We've had teams in the past where it was necessary to create a ton of offense off turnovers, but these guys can basically get what they want in the halfcourt.
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In this case, maybe the vision needs some readjusting. Sure, Duke plays an extended pressure man defense, and it's worked quite well for them over the years. Duke also routinely gets some of the best recruits in terms of the overall package of bball IQ, skill, size, and athleticism. As good of recruiters as our staff might be, MU is not going to attract the same caliber players, so the scheme is not going to work as well. Certainly not now, probably not ever.
I challenge this a little bit. I agree that we don't get freshmen of that caliber. But I think we get players who develop to that caliber by the time they are upperclassmen. Let's go to the way forward machine:
2018-2019 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)
While its too early to call this roster even likely, I don't think this is an unreasonable guess to 17-18 depth chart based on what we know now. That's a helluva team and one that could handle an extended man to man pressure defense. But it might not be possible if Howard, Cheatham, Sammy, Carter, Anim, and Heldt have learned a different defense every season.
Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.
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You meant 2018-19 depth chart, right? 2017-18 would be next season, when Haanif is a junior and Markus and Sam are sophomores.
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Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.
Here is what I don't understand, you shouldn't need 3-4 years to learn a defensive scheme - even if you are a 'system' coach.
Second - the upperclassman guards (specifically JJJ & DU) are now on their 3rd year in Wojo's defense scheme. Something isnt clicking or they are not athletic enough to execute the defense - because we are constantly getting beat off the dribble and picks/switches throw the whole set into a tailspin. I know we didn't run this defense exclusively, but enough that they know where they should be, how to switch, etc.
So a long way of saying, if this is our system, we either need much better players, much better instruction or a more flexible strategy that matches our personnel. What I can say for certain is what we have seen to-date is just not working and I am very skeptical that waiting two more years is going to change that even with the players you reference.
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Luke has pretty much elimited the stupid reaching fouls he got last year. However, in last nights game his first foul was for not setting a proper pick. The coaching staff should concentrate very hard on this, because we cannot afford Fischer getting called for fouls on picks.
I rewound that play and watched it a few times. I actually think Luke's teammate (in this case JJJ) needed to wait an extra half-second until Luke was set before running his man into Luke. Sometimes, the moving screens aren't the screener's fault. The rest of the game, I noticed that Luke made extra damn sure that he was set and held the screen an extra beat.
I agree we can't afford Luke to pick up a single moving-screen foul or a single hedge-the-guard-25-feet-from-hoop foul. We need him to make his fouls count: while protecting our basket.
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I rewound that play and watched it a few times. I actually think Luke's teammate (in this case JJJ) needed to wait an extra half-second until Luke was set before running his man into Luke. Sometimes, the moving screens aren't the screener's fault. The rest of the game, I noticed that Luke made extra damn sure that he was set and held the screen an extra beat.
I agree we can't afford Luke to pick up a single moving-screen foul or a single hedge-the-guard-25-feet-from-hoop foul. We need him to make his fouls count: while protecting our basket.
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Wojo did say earlier in the season that a foul on a screen setter may be the fault of the player with the ball not waiting for the screen to be set. Whether it is the screener or the player with the ball this still needs to be concentrated on in practice. Both players need to learn to do it right. Heldt also has been called on a few of these. We simply cannot afford to have our centers setting screens, if the team is not going to do it right.
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Luke still has a 5% blk%, putting him around #200 in the nation. "Not going to block it" would be a bizarre thought by an opposing offense
Second, I think you underestimate the productivity of Luke's offense & its importance to the team. People don't put up 30 points a night in college bball... but Luke is putting up 138 Ortg on 21% usage. Very important, his offense
You are right in saying I am underestimating his offensive productivity. It is just so frustrating watching him on defense. He is either not there protecting the rim or he just stands straight up which is great when trying to avoid fouls but players are often shooting over him.
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You meant 2018-19 depth chart, right? 2017-18 would be next season, when Haanif is a junior and Markus and Sam are sophomores.
Yes, my bad
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Here is what I don't understand, you shouldn't need 3-4 years to learn a defensive scheme - even if you are a 'system' coach.
Second - the upperclassman guards (specifically JJJ & DU) are now on their 3rd year in Wojo's defense scheme. Something isnt clicking or they are not athletic enough to execute the defense - because we are constantly getting beat off the dribble and picks/switches throw the whole set into a tailspin. I know we didn't run this defense exclusively, but enough that they know where they should be, how to switch, etc.
So a long way of saying, if this is our system, we either need much better players, much better instruction or a more flexible strategy that matches our personnel. What I can say for certain is what we have seen to-date is just not working and I am very skeptical that waiting two more years is going to change that even with the players you reference.
It shouldn't take 3-4 years to learn the system. But it might take 3-4 years to master it. Also, we played zone a vast majority of Wojo's first year and good portion of the last. So JJJ and Duane haven't been playing it for three years, they've really only been playing it this year and the last. Also, JJJ and Duane are two of our best defenders. If everyone was at their level, I think we would be ok. It's Luke's lack of lateral quickness that I think is the issue.
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It shouldn't take 3-4 years to learn the system. But it might take 3-4 years to master it. Also, we played zone a vast majority of Wojo's first year and good portion of the last. So JJJ and Duane haven't been playing it for three years, they've really only been playing it this year and the last. Also, JJJ and Duane are two of our best defenders. If everyone was at their level, I think we would be ok. It's Luke's lack of lateral quickness that I think is the issue.
Maybe - if a defense is so complex it takes 3-4 years to master it will fail in college unless you have the greatest of athletes...
I may be completely mis-diagnosing the situation and just need to wait 4 years, but our inability to stop the dribbler and constant breakdowns when switching not only have Luke out of position but our guards chasing to find their man as well.
If it were me I would do something different kind of like what you reference wojo did in other seasons - or just do a m2m that picks up the ball just over the 3-pt line - but that is irrelevant.
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Maybe - if a defense is so complex it takes 3-4 years to master it will fail in college unless you have the greatest of athletes...
I may be completely mis-diagnosing the situation and just need to wait 4 years, but our inability to stop the dribbler and constant breakdowns when switching not only have Luke out of position but our guards chasing to find their man as well.
If it were me I would do something different kind of like what you reference wojo did in other seasons - or just do a m2m that picks up the ball just over the 3-pt line - but that is irrelevant.
I think we just disagree on what the term "master" means. This is the first year Wojo is trying to play his defense consistently. We'll see what the results end up being. I really think if we had a more mobile center it would make a world of difference.
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I challenge this a little bit. I agree that we don't get freshmen of that caliber. But I think we get players who develop to that caliber by the time they are upperclassmen. Let's go to the way forward machine:
2017-2018 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)
While its too early to call this roster even likely, I don't think this is an unreasonable guess to 17-18 depth chart based on what we know now. That's a helluva team and one that could handle an extended man to man pressure defense. But it might not be possible if Howard, Cheatham, Sammy, Carter, Anim, and Heldt have learned a different defense every season.
Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.
You are under rating Ike. He is going to be a monster player.
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You are under rating Ike. He is going to be a monster player.
I hope so. But everything I have heard has said Ike is a project with a lot of upside while John is a more ready player now. I'm also assuming that Heldt would get the start as a senior but that's not for sure.
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The problem with Luke is that he's the only 6'11" guy on the team.
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The problem with Luke is that he's the only 6'11" guy on the team.
It is more than that. The midget team with Lazar at 6'8" as a center and 6'6" Buter as a power forward was better defensively than this team. This team has two legit bigs in Heldt and Fischer.
I am left blaming Wojo and the coaching staff. I think a more experienced coaching staff would find a way to use our bigs more effectively on the defensive end.
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2017-2018 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)
I think when you said 2017-18, you meant 2018-19. Regardless, this would be a fun team to watch in the opening season at the Benny B Thunderdome.
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I think when you said 2017-18, you meant 2018-19. Regardless, this would be a fun team to watch in the opening season at the Benny B Thunderdome.
Marcus beat you to it ;) But I went back and edited to avoid any further confusion.
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I think we just disagree on what the term "master" means. This is the first year Wojo is trying to play his defense consistently. We'll see what the results end up being. I really think if we had a more mobile center it would make a world of difference.
Team defense depends on all the players mastering it. Last year at times we were starting three freshmen. This year we are starting two freshmen. It takes time to learn. You could expect last year's three freshmen to be much better, but one is in the NBA and another has knee problems.
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We have already established that the problem is his haircut, and that he won't stay off people's lawns.