MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Marcus92 on October 28, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
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Whenever posters are talking about the state of the program, there almost always seems to be a caveat expressing doubt about Wojo's ability as a coach.
So what will it take to win you over? Having just five poll options doesn't allow for every possible point of view — but hopefully one of them covers your outlook reasonably well.
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I vote get us back with this team. I won't be thoroughly convinced till he reaches roughly crean (minus 2003) That'll show consistency and that it's just a matter of time till he catches the right matchup in the tournament or has the right group
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Whenever posters are talking about the state of the program, there almost always seems to be a caveat expressing doubt about Wojo's ability as a coach.
So what will it take to win you over? Having just five poll options doesn't allow for every possible point of view — but hopefully one of them covers your outlook reasonably well.
For me it is when he achieves the goal of the program - which I interpret as competing for a NCAA tourney bid every year.
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I really think he needs an NCAA bid this season, because if this team is not good enough to make it this year it is not likely to make it next year.
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For me it is when he achieves the goal of the program - which I interpret as competing for a NCAA tourney bid every year.
That would be another good poll option: "If he competes for a NCAA bid every year." Hopefully "If he earns multiple (3+) NCAA bids" is reasonably close to this idea.
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I voted the only logical option. 3+ tournaments.... In a row. We want a hugely successful program. Nothing short of a bid every year can suffice that.
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I voted the only logical option. 3+ tournaments.... In a row. We want a hugely successful program. Nothing short of a bid every year can suffice that.
Keep in mind, there's a difference between asking "What would it take to convince you that Wojo is the right coach for Marquette?" and "What's your standard for success for the Marquette basketball program?"
For some, getting back to NCAA this year would make them believe that Wojo has the skill and ability needed to succeed at MU — especially after losing the team's best player to the NBA, competing in an even tougher Big East, and potentially managing a 10-player rotation.
That doesn't mean, however, that they'd be satisfied with a single NCAA bid.
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On the macro level, I want MU to be a perennial NCAA Tournament team who is still on the bubble and getting an NIT invite in "down" years.
On the micro level, I want to see Wojo's teams consistently win the games that they're supposed to win and steal a few games against more talented competition (with more tenured coaches).
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In baseball, they have the WAR statistic. It isn't nearly as quantifiable for coaching college basketball. However, we have all seen instances where we thought a coach's move made a difference, good or bad, in the game. When I start seeing evidence on the floor that Wojo is outcoaching the other coach, making moves that force the other team to adjust, moves the other coach has to adjust to, or best, moves that the other coach doesn't have a good answer to.
I recognize/accept that the first year doesn't really count due to lack of bodies and options. I recognize/accept that last year's team was the youngest any of us can remember. I've seen that he can recruit and teach. But I haven't yet seen any magic/alchemy, an ability to make a team better than the sum of its parts. I haven't seen that he is ready to step out of the Duke shadow and do something truly creative. I haven't seen that he can outcoach the opposing coach.
But I haven't given up on him by any means. But he needs to grow as a coach. When we can start saying "Wojo's coaching won that game," I will be convinced.
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When he gets offered the HC job at Duke.
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In baseball, they have the WAR statistic. It isn't nearly as quantifiable for coaching college basketball. However, we have all seen instances where we thought a coach's move made a difference, good or bad, in the game. When I start seeing evidence on the floor that Wojo is outcoaching the other coach, making moves that force the other team to adjust, moves the other coach has to adjust to, or best, moves that the other coach doesn't have a good answer to.
I recognize/accept that the first year doesn't really count due to lack of bodies and options. I recognize/accept that last year's team was the youngest any of us can remember. I've seen that he can recruit and teach. But I haven't yet seen any magic/alchemy, an ability to make a team better than the sum of its parts. I haven't seen that he is ready to step out of the Duke shadow and do something truly creative. I haven't seen that he can outcoach the opposing coach.
But I haven't given up on him by any means. But he needs to grow as a coach. When we can start saying "Wojo's coaching won that game," I will be convinced.
This is spot on and ever so clear with what our rivals to the west did under the grinch. Hated watching them, but damn he could coach and win with non-exceptional talent. Not expecting that level from Wojo, but with the resources we put towards recruiting and basketball in general, we should be in the tourney every year once this rebuild is over. It shouldn't take a great coach to get this group to the NCAAs barring injury to Luke. The last 4 teams in every year are not good at all and full of disappointment themselves.
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There are so many different factors to coaching. If Wojo never becomes a great game coach but can recruit talent and develop players to the level that we are going to the tourney every year with the occasional deep run, I'd be happy with that. Obviously you always want the next guy who can do it all (Coach K comes to mind currently) but just about every coach has their flaws. Even Hall of Famers like Bo, Calipari, and Roy have their flaws.
This is a results based business, so I voted for the 3+ tournaments option. At a program like ours, the job is to consistently give yourself a chance in March. Winning the league, tourney titles, and deep NCAA runs are all great icing on the cake, but the goal should be to regularly (at least 75% of the time) be playing in the Tournament. Do that and I'll be happy with where we're at, even if our ultimate dreams will always be bigger.
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My standard for Wojo is low because there are two parts of coaching, recruiting and game coaching. I selected win more than last year. If he does that, it means has has out coached a number of very strong coaches and will demonstrate he can actually compete at the level we want to see the program;, which is getting to the tournament and being viable for a decent run. Wojo has demonstrated he can recruit. I gave him plenty of kudos for that during recruiting season.
Until then I am from Missouri on the matter.
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My standard for Wojo is low because there are two parts of coaching, recruiting and game coaching. I selected win more than last year. If he does that, it means has has out coached a number of very strong coaches and will demonstrate he can actually compete at the level we want to see the program;, which is getting to the tournament and being viable for a decent run. Wojo has demonstrated he can recruit. I gave him plenty of kudos for that during recruiting season.
Until then I am from Missouri on the matter.
I'm curious what makes you think wojo is a bad in game coach. He's not Brad Stevens by any means but I saw some positives from him last season. The Georgetown ending was a great play call that sticks out. We also saw team improvement over the season. JJJ finally broke out after years of mediocrity.
I'm not sold on wojo as game coach yet but I'm seeing positive signs. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe he is a dud.
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I view it as a Three Step process:
1) Get us back to relevance. This means we have winning records and are at the threshold of NCAA berths. He's there now. This is the bronze standard and call it what it is, the Deane Award. We don't hire coaches at Marquette to make us relevant in basketball. This is where Dayton is most of the time. We are not Dayton!
2) Get us in the tournament. I'm hoping this year is the year. If it is not, it damn well better be next year. This is the silver standard and the Buzz Award. This is where the Hillbilly was. Lots of us who matriculated after 1982 think this is the best we can do. Those of us whose diploma has dates of from 1965 to 1978 think this is a stepping stone.
3) Make us a consistent Top 10 or Top 15 team with a legitimate shot at the national title. This is the Gold Standard to which we aspire at MU. This is when I will be convinced about Wojo. We're beginning to show signs of wanting to be here, but this takes probably five to seven years. This is the McGuire goal and we're a long way off.
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Dgies
I like number three. Said on here many times that Xavier was our whipping boy for decades and now I want their program. It can be done and fingers crossed it happens.
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i believe we have to take this one step at a time. if one voted #1-that's very reasonable. #2-also very reasonable. now we get into the "wtf zone" with #'s 3-4 and at minimum, a 3-5 year plan, which is fine, but what if he achieves #5(elite 8 and/or final 4) within the next 2 years, then has a little blip in the screen, does he go all the way back to jail without passing "GO"?
sure we can work out all kinds of scenarios here in order to feel more comfortable about wojo, but it's more complicated than that. he gets a one and done or goes to the elite 8 or better, then 3 players are involved in some notre dame esque activities-RUH-ROH, 'ey? or he get's us back to a bubble thing and just misses because the team ahead of us knocks off a top 5'er on a last second shot...but we get a twitter shot of wojo staying late after a practice helping out our walk-ons with their calculus assignments then on his way home helps a homeless lady cross the street and gives her a C-note. life is like a box of....
i understand it's a poll and i'm not trying to be more than 90 degrees off here, but let's take a breath. it seemed pretty obvious that the upper floors of the jesuit residence told wojo he must be someone whom he may not be as evidenced by his entrance onto madness floor-that was not the real wojo. wojo is a slap the floor, get in your face, mean-muggin, win one for the program, then do it again. let wojo be wojo. don't give us those wet finger in the wind, what do people want to see out of our coach thing aside from making us relevant, competitive and good
"if you are straight with our players, they will be straight with you"
al mcguire
i liked tower's response-show us he can out coach the others, see something in a player everyone else has missed, get something out of a player others could not and all that other schmit will take care of itself. does he need some real W's-absolutely! does he need to get us back to the dance? absolutely! but my fear is that we could have someone here yet who is special, not realize it, and then cut him short. kinda like one rick m (rip).
give us a ball team that makes us relevant again, fun to watch, we got screwed when we lose type of team. i've got to go with #'s 1 & 2, then build upon that and it will all take care of itself. if we treat him like schmit now and then he has a nice little run, guess what? he gone laughing all the way to the bank and take that run and more to another school. never, ever burn a bridge
NCAA hoops has become one tough nut-wojo is a winner, came from a winner and knows how to win
"a team should be an extension of a coach's personality. my teams are arrogant and obnoxious"
"remember, half the doctors in this country, graduated in the bottom half of their class"
"winning is only important in war and surgery" &
"do what you have to do as long as you don't hurt people"
al mcguire
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If this poll reflects the sense of most fans Wojo needs a bid this year or next latest. Otherwise ... the tar, feathers and rail may begin to appear.
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I'm curious what makes you think wojo is a bad in game coach. He's not Brad Stevens by any means but I saw some positives from him last season. The Georgetown ending was a great play call that sticks out. We also saw team improvement over the season. JJJ finally broke out after years of mediocrity.
I'm not sold on wojo as game coach yet but I'm seeing positive signs. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe he is a dud.
That it why it is hard to judge a coach's game decisions. The Georgetown play you site was not the play designed by Wojo. Traci decided to throw the full court pass to Fischer on his own. It worked, but easily could not of. It certainly would not of been Wojo's fault if Traci overthrew Fischer, but a lot of posters here would of been saying Wojo cannot coach. To me you really cannot tell, if Wojo is a good game coach, until he has a team of experienced players. A coach can never really count on what freshmen are going to do in a game.
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I'm curious what makes you think wojo is a bad in game coach. He's not Brad Stevens by any means but I saw some positives from him last season. The Georgetown ending was a great play call that sticks out. We also saw team improvement over the season. JJJ finally broke out after years of mediocrity.
I'm not sold on wojo as game coach yet but I'm seeing positive signs. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe he is a dud.
My observation is that the players don't feel he has their back. Lack of trust equates to lack of confidence. Players don't play to their natural capabilities as a result. Unfortunately, I don't believe he will ever change his style.
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My observation is that the players don't feel he has their back. Lack of trust equates to lack of confidence. Players don't play to their natural capabilities as a result. Unfortunately, I don't believe he will ever change his style.
Please enlighten us as to how you made these "observations" and what they are.
Also, don't play to their natural abilities? So JJJ improving and Haanif having a good freshman year (among other examples) was them not playing to their natural abilities?
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Season-long top 20 and NCAA tournament every year.
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Season-long top 20 and NCAA tournament every year.
Every year? There are Hall of Fame coaches — including Mike Krzyzewski (no NCAA bid in 1994-95), Roy Williams (no NCAA bid in 2009-10), Jim Boeheim (no NCAA bid for two straight seasons, in 2006-07 and 2007-08) and John Calipari (no NCAA bid in 2012-13) — who don't meet that standard.
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That it why it is hard to judge a coach's game decisions. The Georgetown play you site was not the play designed by Wojo. Traci decided to throw the full court pass to Fischer on his own. It worked, but easily could not of. It certainly would not of been Wojo's fault if Traci overthrew Fischer, but a lot of posters here would of been saying Wojo cannot coach. To me you really cannot tell, if Wojo is a good game coach, until he has a team of experienced players. A coach can never really count on what freshmen are going to do in a game.
It was the play. Like every good inbound play, there are multiple options that can be run depending on the defense. Going to Luke wasn't the first option but it was the play that was run.
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My observation is that the players don't feel he has their back. Lack of trust equates to lack of confidence. Players don't play to their natural capabilities as a result. Unfortunately, I don't believe he will ever change his style.
I would check your sources.
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It was the play. Like every good inbound play, there are multiple options that can be run depending on the defense. Going to Luke wasn't the first option but it was the play that was run.
And the argument can be made (pretty easily, I think) that well coached players are able to identify which option to take quickly.
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Dgies
I like number three. Said on here many times that Xavier was our whipping boy for decades and now I want their program. It can be done and fingers crossed it happens.
Goose
You and I are aligned in terms of our hopes and concerns with the current regime. I am guardedly optimistic but intellectually prepared for mediocrity. This season really does serve as a bellwether.
Less than two years ago one of my other alma maters fired its head football coach after a losing season and brought in a new man. Today, in just his second season, that new man has his team ranked #2 in the nation and contending for a national championship. And he is doing it with the previous coach's players.
Marquette stands as one of the nation's most storied college basketball programs. The right man should be able to return the luster to one of the college game's more valuable gems. Staying home in March is no longer acceptable.
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Goose
You and I are aligned in terms of our hopes and concerns with the current regime. I am guardedly optimistic but intellectually prepared for mediocrity. This season really does serve as a bellwether.
Less than two years ago one of my other alma maters fired its head football coach after a losing season and brought in a new man. Today, in just his second season, that new man has his team ranked #2 in the nation and contending for a national championship. And he is doing it with the previous coach's players.
Marquette stands as one of the nation's most storied college basketball programs. The right man should be able to return the luster to one of the college game's more valuable gems. Staying home in March is no longer acceptable.
Sorry, but Brad Stevens isn't coming through the door to MU anytime soon.
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Goose
You and I are aligned in terms of our hopes and concerns with the current regime. I am guardedly optimistic but intellectually prepared for mediocrity. This season really does serve as a bellwether.
Less than two years ago one of my other alma maters fired its head football coach after a losing season and brought in a new man. Today, in just his second season, that new man has his team ranked #2 in the nation and contending for a national championship. And he is doing it with the previous coach's players.
Marquette stands as one of the nation's most storied college basketball programs. The right man should be able to return the luster to one of the college game's more valuable gems. Staying home in March is no longer acceptable.
Keefe, I live in Detroit and every MSU fan would quickly remind you that while you're correct that all of U of M's players are Brady Hoke's, they were all top 10 recruiting classes. Getting talent to Ann Arbor hasn't been the issue, the coaching was.
Wojo has had every little talent to work with thus far and what he's had has been young. I think this year is critical and that the tournament is very realistic. It's time Wojo to prove himself because this is the most talented team he's had
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Sorry, but Brad Stevens isn't coming through the door to MU anytime soon.
First thing i thought was "sorry, but Steve Kerr isn't coming through the door to MU anytime soon".
Harbaugh was coming off a Super Bowl run, not an assistant under Saban.
I do agree that this will be an interesting look at what Wojo's full capabilities are - i voted "more wins than last year"
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First thing i thought was "sorry, but Steve Kerr isn't coming through the door to MU anytime soon".
Harbaugh was coming off a Super Bowl run, not an assistant under Saban.
Harbaugh went from being a great college coach to being a really good pro coach back to being a great college coach. That's what Stevens would do. Kerr has never been a college coach.
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My observation is that the players don't feel he has their back. Lack of trust equates to lack of confidence. Players don't play to their natural capabilities as a result. Unfortunately, I don't believe he will ever change his style.
I just do not see this, because Wojo really has not had a lot of transfers out of the program. Maybe, if you were talking to Burton, Mayo or Dawson you might get this impression. Taylor also transferred, but I have not heard anything about him saying it was due to Wojo.
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Harbaugh went from being a great college coach to being a really good pro coach back to being a great college coach. That's what Stevens would do. Kerr has never been a college coach.
I was agreeing with you, not arguing over the nuances of the examples we used.
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I was agreeing with you, not arguing over the nuances of the examples we used.
Oh hah, gotcha. My bad.
Not to mention, while we have a rich history, we don't have 11 national titles like Michigan football does, and none in my lifetime like UM does.
Wojo will be just fine.
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Oh hah, gotcha. My bad.
Not to mention, while we have a rich history, we don't have 11 national titles like Michigan football does, and none in my lifetime like UM does.
Wojo will be just fine.
Yep.
IMHO because of his "career assistant" resume and backer/pedigree he brings national media attention to the program, and as long as he shows improvement YOY for the first 5 years i'm convinced. After that - there will be periods of regression and growth, hopefully Admin and Coach will be patient enough to work through them as there will be more growth than regression.
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Wojo will be just fine.
Glad to hear it - didn't even know he'd been sick.
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Glad to hear it - didn't even know he'd been sick.
Not sure. He could be I guess?
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Oh hah, gotcha. My bad.
Not to mention, while we have a rich history, we don't have 11 national titles like Michigan football does, and none in my lifetime like UM does.
Wojo will be just fine.
In the last 15 years, Marquette has been in the post season 12 times. Unfortunately, the past three were the droughts. That task is less lofty than Harbaugh's. The question is will it be this year or next?
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It was the play. Like every good inbound play, there are multiple options that can be run depending on the defense. Going to Luke wasn't the first option but it was the play that was run.
He said specifically in the post game show that the play was for Traci to take it all the way and Luke did a good job of seeing the floor and rolling to the basket.
I'm not convinced MU was a lot better than last year. They won a lot of close games, that they lost the season before. Some think that's your team getting better, others say that it's luck. MU lost 2 home games by 20+ points. That hasn't happened in at least the last 16 years. Our 2 freshman PGs were both turning it over at such a high rate, but there was no emphasis on slowing the tempo and limiting the amount of possessions.
There's also a team in our conference who also got a new coach in 2014. Some will say they have/ had less talent and they've been to the tournament 2 years in a row. These are my reasons for not being convinced.
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Keefe, I live in Detroit and every MSU fan would quickly remind you that while you're correct that all of U of M's players are Brady Hoke's, they were all top 10 recruiting classes. Getting talent to Ann Arbor hasn't been the issue, the coaching was.
Wojo has had every little talent to work with thus far and what he's had has been young. I think this year is critical and that the tournament is very realistic. It's time Wojo to prove himself because this is the most talented team he's had
Swoop
I don't think we are that far apart. My point is that great coaching makes all the difference. And we both agree that this year is crucial in terms of illuminating where we are at under Wojo.
Clearly, Harbaugh inherited much better talent than Wojo. But this team belongs to Steve and it is time for progress to begin propagating.
If we aren't dancing this March then I would submit we are not nearly as far along as we should be.
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In the last 15 years, Marquette has been in the post season 12 times. Unfortunately, the past three were the droughts. That task is less lofty than Harbaugh's. The question is will it be this year or next?
And therein lies the difference. Harbaugh has U of M competing for a national championship in Year 2. (And, mark my words, the crown will be back in A2 during his tenure...)
All we are looking for Wojo to do is make us competitive (which is rather different than competing for the crown.)
Expecting Wojo to be coaching in the first Monday of April is not what we are asking for. Coaching into March would be a refreshing change.
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And therein lies the difference. Harbaugh has U of M competing for a national championship in Year 2. (And, mark my words, the crown will be back in A2 during his tenure...)
All we are looking for Wojo to do is make us competitive (which is rather different than competing for the crown.)
Expecting Wojo to be coaching in the first Monday of April is not what we are asking for. Coaching into March would be a refreshing change.
Much easier to compete for a national title in football than in basketball.
And again, MU basketball is not UM football.
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If Xavier can be top 20 program no excuses for MU not to be.
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If Xavier can be top 20 program no excuses for MU not to be.
+1
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http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology
This is way to early prediction but things to not
Michigan as a 8 seed
SMU as a 11 seed
Dayton as a 8 seed
Vandy as a 11
Wisconsin as a 3
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Much easier to compete for a national title in football than in basketball.
And again, MU basketball is not UM football.
This Wojo-Harbaugh comparison is just plain nuts.
Before coming to Michigan, Harbaugh coached at Stanford for 4 years and spent 4 years as a head coach in the NFL. Wojo has about the best pedigree of any new Marquette coach in the past 25 years — but he's still a first-time head coach.
Harbaugh has former assistants who have been head coaches longer than Wojo.
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I forgot to mention that Harbaugh went 4-8 and 5-7 in his first two seasons at Stanford, finishing no higher than 6th in the Pac-12. Clearly, the administration made the wrong choice. How did he not get fired?
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http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/bracketology
This is way to early prediction but things to not
Michigan as a 8 seed
SMU as a 11 seed
Dayton as a 8 seed
Vandy as a 11
Wisconsin as a 3
Virginia Tech is an 8th seed.
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I forgot to mention that Harbaugh went 4-8 and 5-7 in his first two seasons at Stanford, finishing no higher than 6th in the Pac-12. Clearly, the administration made the wrong choice. How did he not get fired?
CLASSIC MARCUS!!! Ruining the argument with facts like Harbaugh's subpar records early on. Just stop with the facts man! You're making the rest of us look bad!
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This Wojo-Harbaugh comparison is just plain nuts.
Before coming to Michigan, Harbaugh coached at Stanford for 4 years and spent 4 years as a head coach in the NFL. Wojo has about the best pedigree of any new Marquette coach in the past 25 years — but he's still a first-time head coach.
Harbaugh has former assistants who have been head coaches longer than Wojo.
Harbaugh took over Hoke's team that had a losing season and turned it around immediately. I would say that demonstrates how a coach can make all the difference.
The point is valid. (Fr Davitt would agree.)
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Harbaugh took over Hoke's team that had a losing season and turned it around immediately. I would say that demonstrates how a coach can make all the difference.
The point is valid. (Fr Davitt would agree.)
Right but I think the point Marcus was making was that when he FIRST started at Stanford, it took time to get started... from there he learned what it took to succeed in his profession.
Look at any profession: In my first two years at the hospital in my profession, there was as much learning on the job as there was uncertainty. Now I'm very confident and have experience.
Harbaugh's first two years were learning curve (much like Wojo's), then he went to san fran, then Michigan where he already has the experience of how to turn a team with talent around.
Wojo now has the talent and the experieince, so I am expecting things this year.
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If Xavier can be top 20 program no excuses for MU not to be.
Can't disagree here. Xavier and Marquette share a lot of similarities. But the recent/current situations are different.
Xavier has had remarkable coaching continuity. Chris Mack was an assistant to former head coach Sean Miller. And Miller was an assistant to former head coach Thad Matta. That's a 15-year tradition of smooth transition in leadership and coaching style.
As Tom Crean's assistant, Buzz Williams benefited from the same smooth transition. But when Buzz left, the contrast could not be more stark. He took his assistant coaches and most of his recruits with him. Todd Mayo decided to go pro. Burton and Dawson transferred. If Wojo hadn't landed Carlino as a graduate transfer, Marquette would have had just 7 scholarship players on the roster.
That situation in no way describes Xavier (or any top 20 program).
So now we're hopefully back on track and building again. This season and the next will tell a lot about whether Wojo can get us there — and how long it will take.
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Another key difference:
The one thing Hoke could do is recruit and left Harbaugh pretty loaded at Michigan. Hoke recruited the quarterback, top three receivers and arguably their best overall player (Peppers). Wojo was left with some decent talent, but nowhere near what Harbaugh was left with.
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Harbaugh took over Hoke's team that had a losing season and turned it around immediately. I would say that demonstrates how a coach can make all the difference.
The point is valid. (Fr Davitt would agree.)
I don't dispute that a coach can make all the difference — just the choice of Harbaugh (a highly experienced head coach at both the college and pro level) to compare with Wojo (a first-time college head coach).
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Marcus
You are right on the coaching continuity at Xavier. Why can't that happen at MU? I never understand the folks that make excuses or have lower standards for the program. MU needs a successful product on the court for many reasons and wasted seasons should not be accepted or excused.
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Xavier started their turnaround as a program under Pete Gillen, who took over in 1985. Then they hired his former assistant, Skip Prosser. When Prosser left, they hired Thad Matta...replaced him with his assistant Sean Miller...replaced him with his assistant Chris Mack.
So since the 1980s, they really have only hired one outside coach (Matta). During the same timeframe, Marquette has hired Bob Dukiet, Kevin O'Neill, Mike Deanne, Tom Crean, Buzz Williams and Wojo.
So five of the six guys hired were from outside the program. The only one hired from inside was Buzz, and he was only an assistant for one year. And he clearly had the most success of the six of them. Hard to get continuity when you are constantly hiring someone completely new to the University.
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Marcus
You are right on the coaching continuity at Xavier. Why can't that happen at MU? I never understand the folks that make excuses or have lower standards for the program. MU needs a successful product on the court for many reasons and wasted seasons should not be accepted or excused.
I don't make excuses. And I ask myself the exact same question: Why can't that happen at MU?
I actually don't blame Buzz Williams. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with Marquette. The university sets the tone and the direction, deciding who are the right people to have at each key position — from the president and athletic director down to the head coach. And the powers that be have made a number of poor decisions in this regard.
The past few seasons have been tough as a fan. But let's be honest. Unless you're a trustee, your influence on the program is limited to buying season tickets, attending games and watching them on TV, contributing to the Blue & Gold Fund and talking about MU basketball. Or not. Beyond that, the rest is out of our control.
Back to your original question, why stop at comparing ourselves to Xavier? Until last season, Villanova's most recent national championship was 1985 — 30 years ago. Nova has gone through some ups and downs since Rollie Massimino. But they're proof that it can be done today by a private school outside a power football conference.
I think it's just going to take some time. Jay Wright is entering his 16th year at Nova. I'm hopeful we're on the right track with Wojo. I like what I've seen so far.
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Marcus
You are right on the coaching continuity at Xavier. Why can't that happen at MU? I never understand the folks that make excuses or have lower standards for the program. MU needs a successful product on the court for many reasons and wasted seasons should not be accepted or excused.
It SHOULD happen at MU. I think that's fair. But it didn't, and we hired from outside and lost a ton of players and the ones that were left over weren't very good. So, I guess I just don't see how these last two years are Wojo's fault or how we failed to meet expectations last year.
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I wonder if the decline of the program from Al to Hank and from Hank to Majerus influenced Marquette to hire from the outside. Just a random musing
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Tamu
When Rick left it was middle of summer and between rock and hard place. That said, I do not believe the brass ever had solid plan in place for the loss of any coach since Al. Basketball has been taken by granted by many within the school and the decision making has reflected that. The best hires since Rick happened because intelligent basketball backers made them happen. Hiring of KO and TC happened because of outside influence.
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Tamu
When Rick left it was middle of summer and between rock and hard place. That said, I do not believe the brass ever had solid plan in place for the loss of any coach since Al. Basketball has been taken by granted by many within the school and the decision making has reflected that. The best hires since Rick happened because intelligent basketball backers made them happen. Hiring of KO and TC happened because of outside influence.
There was a very large outside influence in getting Wojo to Marquette.
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Even Jay Wright struggled at Hofstra and Nova his first 3 seasons. If Wojo makes the post season (NCAA/NIT) this year that will be progress.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jay-wright-1.html
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If Xavier can be top 20 program no excuses for MU not to be.
No one can dispute this, ai na?
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Wade
You are correct, just not by basketball people. TC and KO were picked and chased by folks that know the game. They picked a target and brought it home.
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Even Jay Wright struggled at Hofstra and Nova his first 3 seasons. If Wojo makes the post season (NCAA/NIT) this year that will be progress.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/jay-wright-1.html
It was not that long ago that fans were questioning Coach K's ability. He had a few seasons in a row where Duke was not faring well in the NCAA. Now he seems to be on a roll again. Even the best can fall below fans' expectations.
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As Tom Crean's assistant, Buzz Williams benefited from the same smooth transition. But when Buzz left, the contrast could not be more stark. He took his assistant coaches and most of his recruits with him. Todd Mayo decided to go pro. Burton and Dawson transferred. If Wojo hadn't landed Carlino as a graduate transfer, Marquette would have had just 7 scholarship players on the roster.
I'd actually say the Buzz transition wasn't that smooth either. Christopherson and Mbakwe both transferred out. Buzz ran off Acker (before begging him to return) and tried his damndest to run Cubillan off as well. After losing four starters in 2009, he began the cycle of trying to fill holes with JUCOs. While that succeeded and allowed him to accelerate the program's ascension, it definitely didn't create harmony within Marquette.
Year One for Buzz was a fairly smooth transition, despite losing two players that would go on to stardom elsewhere, but after that the program was largely held together with Krazy Glue and duct tape and somehow Buzz kept it running.
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Wade
You are correct, just not by basketball people. TC and KO were picked and chased by folks that know the game. They picked a target and brought it home.
When Shaka failed, Doc pushed hard for Wojo. Doc is definitely a basketball person.
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On the micro level, I want to see Wojo's teams consistently win the games that they're supposed to win and steal a few games against more talented competition (with more tenured coaches).
Um....How about beating the Badgers in Madison and beating Top 10 ranked Providence not once but twice last season? For the record, I voted for #2.....get back to the NCAA this year. Even if we don't get there, and there's a good chance we won't, I'm still not ready to write Wojo off as a failure. I think he needs another year at least. That said, I'm optimistic we'll be solidly on the bubble come March and even if we don't end up making the cut, that's still a huge improvement from 24 months ago when we only had 8 scholarship players. Wojo was hired for a gut renovation and unfortunately those take time. Why anyone thought having Hank on our roster last year should have almost automatically made us a tournament team I'll never know. Almost every year in the NBA draft there's a top 20 pick from a college team that didn't play in the post season, or a Norfolk St. type team that isn't even a mid major. I'm optimistic Wojo knows what he's doing, and I for one, am really routing for him to be back in Raliegh Durham 6 or 7 years from now because the only way that happens is if he does one hell of a job for us!
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Wade
I have a great deal of respect and I like Doc a lot. No doubt he is a big time basketball guy. That said, I do not believe he puts his heart into the help he provides in helping recruit a coach. He goes with BOT guy and then works the guy somewhat. Trust me, Doc did not need to do any heavy lifting in the Wojo recruitment.
Again, big time respect for Doc but aside from being big time name alum I am not sure how much help he brings. Wish he could have landed Shaka and I might be singing different tune.
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Um....How about beating the Badgers in Madison and beating Top 10 ranked Providence not once but twice last season? For the record, I voted for #2.....get back to the NCAA this year. Even if we don't get there, and there's a good chance we won't, I'm still not ready to write Wojo off as a failure. I think he needs another year at least. That said, I'm optimistic we'll be solidly on the bubble come March and even if we don't end up making the cut, that's still a huge improvement from 24 months ago when we only had 8 scholarship players. Wojo was hired for a gut renovation and unfortunately those take time. Why anyone thought having Hank on our roster last year should have almost automatically made us a tournament team I'll never know. Almost every year in the NBA draft there's a top 20 pick from a college team that didn't play in the post season, or a Norfolk St. type team that isn't even a mid major. I'm optimistic Wojo knows what he's doing, and I for one, am really routing for him to be back in Raliegh Durham 6 or 7 years from now because the only way that happens is if he does one hell of a job for us!
When was the last time we had 13 scholarship players, not counting walk-ons who given one?
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When was the last time we had 13 scholarship players, not counting walk-ons who given one?
Depending on your views of Jake Thomas, Buzz's final year.
Before that, Crean's final year. There's a lot of 12 player years in there, FWIW
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If it had been a choice, I would have voted:
None of the above.
What will it take to convince me about Wojo as a coach? Well, I'm already convinced; I think he's a good coach with the potential to be a very good to excellent one.
Although I consider myself as big a Marquette fan as anybody, I think I look at things a little differently from many here.
First, it's just a game. I want to win. I'm wearing Marquette garb as I sit at my computer right now. I watch every game on TV and pay some pretty big bucks to attend some road games every year. Looking forward to the game at Georgia next month, and I'll cheer my arse off as I wear my blue and gold amidst all those red-and-black-clad fans. Nevertheless, my personal pride and self-worth are not based on the success or failure of a college basketball program. I didn't hide the fact that I was a Marquette alum when we struggled in Wojo's first season.
Also, I'm an optimistic guy who starts from a point of positivism. So I already think Wojo has done a fine job as a recruiter and I already think his game coaching has improved and I already think his team show significant progress last season. Things can get better, to be sure - that is true for every coach but one every single season. (Heck, I am in my fourth season as a middle-school coach and we won the first championship in school history last season, but I still expect improvement out of myself.)
For me, the better question would have been, "What it would take to convince you that Wojo will NOT succeed," because I already think he is succeeding and I firmly believe he will continue to do so.
Have a great day, everybody!
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When was the last time we had 13 scholarship players, not counting walk-ons who given one?
I think Buzz generally used all 13 scholarships. He would always take a flyer on some player. I rather not use the last scholarship on a flyer. So far Wojo has avoided that and I hope that continues.
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Xavier started their turnaround as a program under Pete Gillen, who took over in 1985. Then they hired his former assistant, Skip Prosser. When Prosser left, they hired Thad Matta...replaced him with his assistant Sean Miller...replaced him with his assistant Chris Mack.
So since the 1980s, they really have only hired one outside coach (Matta). During the same timeframe, Marquette has hired Bob Dukiet, Kevin O'Neill, Mike Deanne, Tom Crean, Buzz Williams and Wojo.
So five of the six guys hired were from outside the program. The only one hired from inside was Buzz, and he was only an assistant for one year. And he clearly had the most success of the six of them. Hard to get continuity when you are constantly hiring someone completely new to the University.
Part of this has to do with Dukiet and Deane being fired. Even Buzz may of been pushed out. Generally, you would not hire the assistants of coaches you fire.
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Part of this has to do with Dukiet and Deane being fired. Even Buzz may of been pushed out. Generally, you would not hire the assistants of coaches you fire.
Oh I agree. And there wasn't really a natural candidate when O'Neill left either.
But that's why programs like Butler and Xavier have been successful.
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Oh I agree. And there wasn't really a natural candidate when O'Neill left either.
But that's why programs like Butler and Xavier have been successful.
That's why I would pay Stan Johnson as much as he wants each year so if Wojo ever leaves, the next best candidate is sitting right there.
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bilsu
MU not being prepared after firing a coach or one leaving is shame on them. They always should have a target list and some knowledge of their interest. This is especially true if they fire a guy. They knew KO and Buzz were long gone before they left and you need to be prepared in advance. To best my knowledge they were not.
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bilsu
MU not being prepared after firing a coach or one leaving is shame on them. They always should have a target list and some knowledge of their interest. This is especially true if they fire a guy. They knew KO and Buzz were long gone before they left and you need to be prepared in advance. To best my knowledge they were not.
Well in all fairness the Administration was going out the door at the same time; Buzz just turned off the lights.
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If it had been a choice, I would have voted:
None of the above.
What will it take to convince me about Wojo as a coach? Well, I'm already convinced; I think he's a good coach with the potential to be a very good to excellent one.
Although I consider myself as big a Marquette fan as anybody, I think I look at things a little differently from many here.
First, it's just a game. I want to win. I'm wearing Marquette garb as I sit at my computer right now. I watch every game on TV and pay some pretty big bucks to attend some road games every year. Looking forward to the game at Georgia next month, and I'll cheer my arse off as I wear my blue and gold amidst all those red-and-black-clad fans. Nevertheless, my personal pride and self-worth are not based on the success or failure of a college basketball program. I didn't hide the fact that I was a Marquette alum when we struggled in Wojo's first season.
Also, I'm an optimistic guy who starts from a point of positivism. So I already think Wojo has done a fine job as a recruiter and I already think his game coaching has improved and I already think his team show significant progress last season. Things can get better, to be sure - that is true for every coach but one every single season. (Heck, I am in my fourth season as a middle-school coach and we won the first championship in school history last season, but I still expect improvement out of myself.)
For me, the better question would have been, "What it would take to convince you that Wojo will NOT succeed," because I already think he is succeeding and I firmly believe he will continue to do so.
Have a great day, everybody!
Odd how some of us realize that as we get older.
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bilsu
MU not being prepared after firing a coach or one leaving is shame on them. They always should have a target list and some knowledge of their interest. This is especially true if they fire a guy. They knew KO and Buzz were long gone before they left and you need to be prepared in advance. To best my knowledge they were not.
I am not sure why you have this response. Someone, maybe you, posted that Xavier, with the exception of Matta was promoting within and that gave the program continuity. While I agree with you that MU should have a plan in place, I do not think that would include hiring an assistant from a team that played poorly enough that the coach was fired, which is what I referring to and nothing else. Generally, you are going to clean house.
I do think they had a plan in place when they fired Dean. They had observed Crean in action during the NCAA tournament and they were impressed with him.
Please correct me, if my memory is wrong. The way I remember it they hired Buzz after all the candidates they considered turn down MU.
Maybe their plan was to hire Shaka when Buzz left and he also turned MU down. I believe at that time MU did not have a permanent athletic director, which may of hindered the hiring process.
With MU's tradition and basketball budget you would think it would be easy for MU to hire a successful coach, but it is not and that is a head scratcher to me.
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After Wojo takes this team, and the next two to the NCAA's. I'm really surprised to read some don't believe this year's team isn't NCAA caliber. In fact, I think this year's team will be better than next year's. This is an extremely talented and deep team at ALL positions.
Yet next year will mark Wojo's 4th year at the helm, Duane and Rowsey will be 5th year seniors. Traci, Haanif, and Heldt will be very experienced upperclassmen, and Howard and Hauser will be one more year along.
MU should be a consistent NCAA team, with it being an exception to the rule for MU to miss an NCAA given our legacy, history, and investment into Men's Basketball.
All this said, I doubt Wojo will reach the levels of Tom Crean and Buzz Williams based on what I've seen thus far.
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Looking back to Kevin O'Neill, for example, he may have been exactly what Marquette needed at the time. I really enjoyed seeing the team come together and improve from 1990-91 to 1993-94. That win against Kentucky to advance to the Sweet 16 is one of my all-time favorite games.
But he's also held 9 different jobs since leaving MU in 1994. He just wasn't likely to stick around. In fact, O'Neill's 5 seasons with Marquette was the longest he's spent at any one place throughout his entire career. And unfortunately, that's true of most head coaches.
Very few coaches find the perfect fit — a place where they can win consistently (the right conference, talent/recruiting, university alignment/resources/support), where they feel both comfortable and challenged (these guys are incredibly competitive and driven), where they like to live (weather, community), where they'll be rewarded enough not to look elsewhere, where they feel appreciated and won't wear out their welcome over time.
At the same time, I don't think the continued success of schools like Xavier or Villanova comes down to nothing more than luck.
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bilsu
MU not being prepared after firing a coach or one leaving is shame on them. They always should have a target list and some knowledge of their interest. This is especially true if they fire a guy. They knew KO and Buzz were long gone before they left and you need to be prepared in advance. To best my knowledge they were not.
According to most reports, MU was prepared to hire Shaka, and he was extremely close to accepting. MU then turned to Plan B, Wojo.
How much more "prepared" should they have been? Not being trite - would really appreciate your perspective.
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Interesting that some hold Xavier as a program to emulate. The rare ability to transfer success through four assistant hires has masked a program riddled with off the court issues. Some of those same issues have put those emulating X on a moral pedestal looking down at Marquette. Funny how that happens.
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Interesting that some hold Xavier as a program to emulate. The rare ability to transfer success through four assistant hires has masked a program riddled with off the court issues. Some of those same issues have put those emulating X on a moral pedestal looking down at Marquette. Funny how that happens.
I think posters were specifically referring to on-court results. But it would be interesting to know if Xavier's coaching succession has led to relaxed player standards or certain things being taken for granted.
Or perhaps there's something in Cincinnati's water that causes thuggishness.
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After Wojo takes this team, and the next two to the NCAA's. I'm really surprised to read some don't believe this year's team isn't NCAA caliber. In fact, I think this year's team will be better than next year's. This is an extremely talented and deep team at ALL positions.
Yet next year will mark Wojo's 4th year at the helm, Duane and Rowsey will be 5th year seniors. Traci, Haanif, and Heldt will be very experienced upperclassmen, and Howard and Hauser will be one more year along.
MU should be a consistent NCAA team, with it being an exception to the rule for MU to miss an NCAA given our legacy, history, and investment into Men's Basketball.
All this said, I doubt Wojo will reach the levels of Tom Crean and Buzz Williams based on what I've seen thus far.
What exactly is the "level of Tom crean" I mean beyond the FF we're talking three NITs (one of which would never happen now days) and 4 NCAA early exits, in fact even the FF year we were dangerously close to a repeat of Tulsa the year before. I'd say that Crean is where our program should be minimum, Buzz is what we should expect and Nova is what we should strive for
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Wojo was not second choice but was on the list. Shaka was target and almost landed him. They were better prepared on the Buzz exit but far from perfect IMO.
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Wojo was not second choice but was on the list. Shaka was target and almost landed him. They were better prepared on the Buzz exit but far from perfect IMO.
Shaka was the main target. They went after him hard and almost had him.
Cuonzo, Ben, and Steve were all guys they wanted to consider if they did not get Shaka, and they were all guys they did consider. Steve impressed them by far the most, and Doc had a say in that.
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What exactly is the "level of Tom crean" I mean beyond the FF we're talking three NITs (one of which would never happen now days) and 4 NCAA early exits, in fact even the FF year we were dangerously close to a repeat of Tulsa the year before. I'd say that Crean is where our program should be minimum, Buzz is what we should expect and Nova is what we should strive for
I agree. Which ultimately means I'm not sold on Wojo as of yet. As I wrote, he gets this year's team to the NCAA (as he should), and the next two teams - I'll be "sold" in the sense that he's a solid hire.
That said, I simply don't think he has the coaching/motivational skills that Buzz and Crean had. I suspect the ceiling with Wojo will be early exits from NCAA tourneys as we saw with Crean - yet there won't be a Final Four on his resume.
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I agree. Which ultimately means I'm not sold on Wojo as of yet. As I wrote, he gets this year's team to the NCAA (as he should), and the next two teams - I'll be "sold" in the sense that he's a solid hire.
That said, I simply don't think he has the coaching/motivational skills that Buzz and Crean had. I suspect the ceiling with Wojo will be early exits from NCAA tourneys as we saw with Crean - yet there won't be a Final Four on his resume.
Wojo hasn't been dealing with a complete roster yet. I think patience is the key.
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Somehow I just realized that options 1 and 2 say essentially the same thing. If we win more games this season (21+), we're most likely going to earn an NCAA bid.
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With MU's tradition and basketball budget you would think it would be easy for MU to hire a successful coach, but it is not and that is a head scratcher to me.
It's tough to get people to move to a place where it's the dead of winter 8.5 /12 months of the year.
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Somehow I just realized that options 1 and 2 say essentially the same thing. If we win more games this season (21+), we're most likely going to earn an NCAA bid.
Only way we miss with 21 wins is if we self ban like Syracuse or Louisville.
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Wojo hasn't been dealing with a complete roster yet. I think patience is the key.
I hope you are right. I was a little underwhelmed last year with the in-game coaching, strategy, rotation (or lack thereof). This year really should give us a good idea of what we have in Wojo. An NCAA bid would be the minimum in my book as far as expectation given the experience and talent across all positions on this roster (sans the 4). Think this team has Sweet 16 potential with great* coaching.
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Wojo was not second choice but was on the list. Shaka was target and almost landed him. They were better prepared on the Buzz exit but far from perfect IMO.
You're contradicting yourself some here, Goose.
The Marquette leaders were about as prepared as they could have been when Buzz left. They had a target, they went after him hard, they had a Plan B, and they executed it. Again, I'm not sure what they could have or should have done differently.
KO's successor ... that's another story.
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where is shaka now?? Texas right?
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Shaka was the main target. They went after him hard and almost had him.
Cuonzo, Ben, and Steve were all guys they wanted to consider if they did not get Shaka, and they were all guys they did consider. Steve impressed them by far the most, and Doc had a say in that.
FIFY
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You're contradicting yourself some here, Goose.
The Marquette leaders were about as prepared as they could have been when Buzz left. They had a target, they went after him hard, they had a Plan B, and they executed it. Again, I'm not sure what they could have or should have done differently.
KO's successor ... that's another story.
It didn't help that there was an interim athletic director in place either.
But really it's not as though there was some can't miss candidate out there that they ignored. Wojo fit the profile of what Marquette wants the basketball program to be. To date, he has done OK. He has recruited well. Hasn't built a fortress around himself and the team on campus. Now he has to perform. If he does, everyone will be happy. If he doesn't, he'll be gone.
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What I would like to see is the completion of the rebuilding process, and a long term reloading process. This would mean top 25 program, NCAA's almost annually. This would include trips to the second weekend or sweet 16 mixed in there. And, once in a while, a deeper run. This would also include challenging for regular season league titles once in a while, while regularly finishing in the top tier. This would also include being very competitive in the higher profile non-conference games, such as Wisconsin, etc...I will, and I am giving Wojo time to get there. But the above are my expectations, whether the coach is Wojo or anybody else. I believe he can do these things. We will wait and see if they happen. While the above may be expecting a lot for some, those are what I expect and what I believe can be achieved at Marquette. I would be very happy with that.
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FIFY
They looked into Howland, and (probably quickly) decided he would not be the guy for the job.
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I would like to see consecutive tourney births
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Eye'd be curious ta c dat too, ai na?
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MU82
I agree they Shaka as a target and completely loved that plan. Their Plan B was far lessed defined. I remember talking with someone the Sunday after Buzz left and laughing about the pool in Plan B. Was was not overly well defined and Wojo was an afterthought in that discussion. That said, the afterthought was there and Doc's connection with him was well noted.
Would like to add that they had no choice but to be better prepared with Buzz leaving. They had plenty of time to put together a plan because he was long gone before he actually quit.
I continue my belief that that university does a ton of great things but their management of the ball team is not one of them. If any senior management group in the private sector had similar success they would be held far more accountable. School spends crazy amount of money on the program and the success does not match the investment. It really does come down to how they school defines success. Judging by many on here, the bar for the program probably is not as high as the bar I set for the program.
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After Shaka didn't work out, it sounded like Plan B was to survey the market for who was out there. I don't think anyone really planned on Wojo, but when he interviewed, he knocked it out of the park.
Obviously we have no idea how it ends, but kind of reminiscent of how Marquette didn't plan to hire Al McGuire. Apparently he found out and pretty much came into the interview with an "I'll show them" mentality. It worked, MU hired Al, and the rest is history.
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MU82
I agree they Shaka as a target and completely loved that plan. Their Plan B was far lessed defined. I remember talking with someone the Sunday after Buzz left and laughing about the pool in Plan B. Was was not overly well defined and Wojo was an afterthought in that discussion. That said, the afterthought was there and Doc's connection with him was well noted.
Would like to add that they had no choice but to be better prepared with Buzz leaving. They had plenty of time to put together a plan because he was long gone before he actually quit.
I continue my belief that that university does a ton of great things but their management of the ball team is not one of them. If any senior management group in the private sector had similar success they would be held far more accountable. School spends crazy amount of money on the program and the success does not match the investment. It really does come down to how they school defines success. Judging by many on here, the bar for the program probably is not as high as the bar I set for the program.
It was quite evident through Buzz's coaching all of his last season at MU that "he gowne."
Second bolded: Yes, it seems the bar has fallen quite low given the abysmal performance of the team the past three years. Since the building of the AL, the admission into the original Big East, and then having great success in the original Big East, when Buzz left - the program was at heights it hadn't seen since the 70's. There is NO reason MU should not be a consistent Top 25 team with a good* coach.
I'm hopeful Wojo has learned a lot from these past two seasons, and will show great improvement this year. Great improvement would simply start with playing the best players the most minutes, in a consistent and clearly defined rotation.
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It was quite evident through Buzz's coaching all of his last season at MU that "he gowne."
Second bolded: Yes, it seems the bar has fallen quite low given the abysmal performance of the team the past three years. Since the building of the AL, the admission into the original Big East, and then having great success in the original Big East, when Buzz left - the program was at heights it hadn't seen since the 70's. There is NO reason MU should not be a consistent Top 25 team with a good* coach.
I'm hopeful Wojo has learned a lot from these past two seasons, and will show great improvement this year. Great improvement would simply start with playing the best players the most minutes, in a consistent and clearly defined rotation.
Still haven't learned anything about basketball in your time away I see.
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I think we have gone a little overboard on how bad we were the last three years. Wojo' says first year was rough. In Buzz's last year, we were 9-9 in conference. It's not where we want to be, but it's not like we have 3 seasons of 4 wins or less.
I'm optimistic about Wojo. I think he brings much more stability to the program. I don't have any barometer, but more just the eye test. As a game coach, I'm still not convinced. I'm interested with a more experienced team, if he will have more flexibility with in game adjustments. I'm also skeptical with his Man defense. We just get beat too often off the dribble. We lost a lot of momentum in games because we couldn't get key stops.
i think he's done well with player development. The freshman seem more ready under him than with Buzz. Granted, he couldn't bury them on the bench like Buzz could due to more talented experience. JuJuan's development was encouraging.
All in all I'm hoping for the best, and think he's a good coach. I'm just recognizing there's more patience required than I hoped as he and the team gain more experience.
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Still haven't learned anything about basketball in your time away I see.
What I did learn is basically read a Wade's post, and you can count on the exact opposite outcome. How did that Elite 8 for last year's team prediction work out for you bud? 8-)
Might want to backpeddle from your predictions of greatness for Rowsey for this season...think he'll be a nice role player this year and solid contributor next year.
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What I did learn is basically read a Wade's post, and you can count on the exact opposite outcome. How did that Elite 8 for last year's team prediction work out for you bud? 8-)
Might want to backpeddle from your predictions of greatness for Rowsey for this season...think he'll be a nice role player this year and solid contributor next year.
Yawn.
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After Shaka didn't work out, it sounded like Plan B was to survey the market for who was out there. I don't think anyone really planned on Wojo, but when he interviewed, he knocked it out of the park.
Obviously we have no idea how it ends, but kind of reminiscent of how Marquette didn't plan to hire Al McGuire. Apparently he found out and pretty much came into the interview with an "I'll show them" mentality. It worked, MU hired Al, and the rest is history.
and Al was 8-18, 14-12 and in his 3rd season he made the NIT.
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I think we have gone a little overboard on how bad we were the last three years. Wojo' says first year was rough. In Buzz's last year, we were 9-9 in conference. It's not where we want to be, but it's not like we have 3 seasons of 4 wins or less.
I think this is a really good point. Year by year...
2013-14: End result was disappointing, but we had a winning record, 9-9 in Big East, and really only lost it in the last four games. Two double-overtime losses killed our bid, otherwise 19-13 (11-7) probably gets us in. 4 total overtime losses doomed that season, which was disappointing given the three seasons preceding, but really not that bad.
2014-15: No sugarcoating a turd. Lost coach, lost recruiting class, lost players, and talent deficiency made for a bad team. Carlino saved it from being completely god awful, but this was bad by any measure.
2015-16: 20-win season, great player to watch in Ellenson, and a not-great-but-respectable 8-10 in conference play. Heartbreakers at home to DePaul and Creighton were the difference between staying home in March and going to the Tourney. Not ideal, but by no means terrible.
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2015-16: 20-win season, great player to watch in Ellenson, and a not-great-but-respectable 8-10 in conference play. Heartbreakers at home to DePaul and Creighton were the difference between staying home in March and going to the Tourney. Not ideal, but by no means terrible.
Not making the NCAA Tournament should be terrible! When will our program return to the days when anything but that was considered a a major disappointment? I wish I knew!
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Not making the NCAA Tournament should be terrible! When will our program return to the days when anything but that was considered a a major disappointment? I wish I knew!
Seriously? you are either drunk, delusional or a troll.
If i remember correctly there were two program rankings in the last 5 years - one had us #17 out of the last 50 years and one had us top 25 since 2000 (ESPN and CBS??). That's pretty impressive and there are dozens of "big" programs that would love to have that track record and hundreds that look up. And those above us? Either very respectable that we should emulate (not envy) or have taken a path to success we should not want.
If you don't expect set backs and down years while we retool you are fooling yourself. or, if you are so focussed on the short term results you should contact Heise for retirement advice*
*kidding Jesse
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MU82
I agree they Shaka as a target and completely loved that plan. Their Plan B was far lessed defined. I remember talking with someone the Sunday after Buzz left and laughing about the pool in Plan B. Was was not overly well defined and Wojo was an afterthought in that discussion. That said, the afterthought was there and Doc's connection with him was well noted.
Would like to add that they had no choice but to be better prepared with Buzz leaving. They had plenty of time to put together a plan because he was long gone before he actually quit.
I continue my belief that that university does a ton of great things but their management of the ball team is not one of them. If any senior management group in the private sector had similar success they would be held far more accountable. School spends crazy amount of money on the program and the success does not match the investment. It really does come down to how they school defines success. Judging by many on here, the bar for the program probably is not as high as the bar I set for the program.
My bar simply is realistic. Plus, I'm an optimistic guy at heart.
Many here would have had Al all but fired after 2 years. Not to mention what they would have thought of Coach K early, Jay Wright early, Jim Harbaugh early at Stanford, etc, etc, etc.
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Not making the NCAA Tournament should be terrible! When will our program return to the days when anything but that was considered a a major disappointment? I wish I knew!
The reality is programs go through down periods. Kentucky has missed recent tournaments. So has North Carolina. Indiana. Most big time programs sometimes miss the Dance.
We were left with a crapshow. Despite that, we've had winning records and been 2 wins away from the tourney two of the past three years. Time to suck it up, move on, and embrace the future of the program. I'm very excited about watching guys like Cheatham, Howard, Hauser, and others develop. I'm also excited about having 3 proven seniors on this roster.
I'm just more excited about the future of the program than I am disappointed about the past.
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There really should be two sets of expectations.
The first one is the program's overall expectations. My expectations would be that that MU should be making the tournament 9 out of 10 years and usually winning at least the first round game.
The other expectation should be for the current team. Expectations that are too high for a team are going to lead to a disappointing year when those expectations are not met. Everyone here wants to believe that MU is better than 7th place finish that most outside prognosticators are predicting. The one I think we should consider as the most accurate are the predicted Big East rankings by the leagues coaches. They are the ones that know all the teams in the Big East the best. However, if you look at that ranking there was not a big difference in the number of votes between the middle teams, which does give us hope. In the end if we finish 9-9 (improvement over last year), 6th place (improvement over last year and better than predicted) with a bid to the NIT (less than what we want, but better than last year) we should be satisfied with this year, but still maintain our longterm goals for the program.
In the end the coach is responsible for the talent on the floor, so if you feel Wojo cannot build a team capable of getting to the tournament in the future you should be unhappy. If you see the team moving towards that goal (maybe not as fast as we like) we should be patient.
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I think we're all guilty of focusing too much on postseason and not enough on actual results. I don't think anyone would argue that this stretch has been better than the dukiet and late deane early crean years but the NIT changed so now we don't rewarded as easily. It's a shame but we actually are in a better spot than the Tony smith or wardle years.
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I think we're all guilty of focusing too much on postseason and not enough on actual results. I don't think anyone would argue that this stretch has been better than the dukiet and late deane early crean years but the NIT changed so now we don't rewarded as easily. It's a shame but we actually are in a better spot than the Tony smith or wardle years.
I think the actual results are a fantastic reflection of the product on the floor.
We are in a better position than the years you reference because we now spend more money on Bball- period. The fact the program stepped back this far is because of mis-management by MU (pilarz + BOT)
Before any jumps on me I am not saying that the situational stuff with Wojo isn't real - just that it's time to stop twisting ourselves in knots about the situation and now start measuring W's.
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I think the actual results are a fantastic reflection of the product on the floor.
We are in a better position than the years you reference because we now spend more money on Bball- period. The fact the program stepped back this far is because of mis-management by MU (pilarz + BOT)
Before any jumps on me I am not saying that the situational stuff with Wojo isn't real - just that it's time to stop twisting ourselves in knots about the situation and now start measuring W's.
I agree with you but I'm just saying we're comparing this to our other down periods but in those periods we got into the NIT with a 15-14 record in 2000 that would never happen now and O'neil got us in with that same record in 90 and Dukiet got us in the NIT with a 16-13 record. We're only viewing those periods as better because there was a postseason not taking a step back and realizing that Buzz's last team and last year's squad were both tremendously better than those squads that made the postseason back in the day.
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I agree with you but I'm just saying we're comparing this to our other down periods but in those periods we got into the NIT with a 15-14 record in 2000 that would never happen now and O'neil got us in with that same record in 90 and Dukiet got us in the NIT with a 16-13 record. We're only viewing those periods as better because there was a postseason not taking a step back and realizing that Buzz's last team and last year's squad were both tremendously better than those squads that made the postseason back in the day.
Difference back then was the NIT was not packed with low major conference champions who lost their conference tourneys.
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I agree with you but I'm just saying we're comparing this to our other down periods but in those periods we got into the NIT with a 15-14 record in 2000 that would never happen now and O'neil got us in with that same record in 90 and Dukiet got us in the NIT with a 16-13 record. We're only viewing those periods as better because there was a postseason not taking a step back and realizing that Buzz's last team and last year's squad were both tremendously better than those squads that made the postseason back in the day.
Our team has more potential/talent than the end of the Deane years - but the experience and the way Deane coached people up, I am not so sure it wouldn't have been a competitive game. The feel in the arena is pretty darn similar to the Deane years. I can't speak to dukiet.
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There was nothing more depressing than the Dukiet years. Not only were they terrible on the court, but joining the MCC seemed like we were raising the white flag for the entire program. It changed quickly though...there's always hope!!
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Difference back then was the NIT was not packed with low major conference champions who lost their conference tourneys.
That is true, but the NCAA field and the NIT field were smaller back then.
It really did bother me that Buzz's 17-15 team and last year's 20-13 team did not get an NIT bid.
That was because I always thought that MU was a commodity that the NIT wanted in their tournament. We also had a star player last year. Apparently that no longer matters. It is a blow to my ego that the NIT can dismiss MU so easily.
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OK.
As required, I waited until the 5th page of a thread to evaluate a hire.
I agree with 60% of you, disagree with 38% and think the remaining 1% are either crazy or just bad at math.
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OK.
As required, I waited until the 5th page of a thread to evaluate a hire.
I agree with 60% of you, disagree with 38% and think the remaining 1% are either crazy or just bad at math.
Someone's prepared for Tuesday
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I agree with you but I'm just saying we're comparing this to our other down periods but in those periods we got into the NIT with a 15-14 record in 2000 that would never happen now and O'neil got us in with that same record in 90 and Dukiet got us in the NIT with a 16-13 record. We're only viewing those periods as better because there was a postseason not taking a step back and realizing that Buzz's last team and last year's squad were both tremendously better than those squads that made the postseason back in the day.
As my Canadian future in-laws would say: Ootstanding point.
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Everyone here wants to believe that MU is better than 7th place finish that most outside prognosticators are predicting.
While the prognosticators might turn out to be right, I also recall they picked our boys to win the BE one year when we had no serviceable point, simply because we had gone to the E8 the year before. Most often they seem to look at where a team finished the year before and make a one place in the standings adjustment.
Reasons I am optimistic we'll do better than expected:
* The Freshman are now Sophomores (see McGuire, Al)
* Haanif is a stud in the making. If the Dayton scrimmage is any indication, he has added an array of offensive moves to his go-to moves. If he can improve his turnovers to something on the order of not completely embarrassing he will be our best player this year
* JJJ can continue his trajectory from the 2nd half last year. Once he bought into the system, only took the "easy" 3 pointers, and stopped taking himself out of position defensively going for steals he played to his recruiting ranking
*Duane is due for a bounce back. Even an incremental improvement on both sides of the ball will make him extremely valuable and should be easily in reach now that with all the firepower we should have he can afford to be more selective
*Sam at the 4. I know expectations need to be tempered because he is a Frosh, but I have a feeling he is going to plug a big hole just by focusing on D and rebounding and tossing in the occasional point. He can play the role JFB did his sophomore year
We'll see fairly soon.