MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on July 28, 2016, 01:04:54 PM
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To take this discussion out of the recruiting thread.......
I felt that Crean was good at preparation and motivation but terrible at in-game adjustments. He was lousy at stopping runs by coming up with a new wrinkle. He got outcoached regularly. I thought he was a good, not great, recruiter. Failed to string together consecutive solid classes, failed to exploit the final 4, failed to recruit and develop quality bigs. But, IMO, his biggest weakness was in-game adjustments.
Buzz couldn't recruit quality bigs or quality point guards. But he sure knew how to motivate the switchables. I am constantly amazed that people downplay his X's and O's. He won with the smallest team in D1. Talented, yes, but smaller than some high school teams. He won without post players. He won playing a 6.5 player rotation. He won without dominating point guards. To string together a 5 season run (yes, year 6 sucked) with the rosters he had means he had to be doing some amazing alchemy. And that requires in-game moves, adjustments, wrinkles. He made other, very good, very experienced coaches adjust to what he was doing. Crean never was able to do that at MU.
Wojo gets an 'incomplete' so far. It is difficult to assess his in-game wrinkles when you look at the overarching shortcomings of his first two rosters, year one with lack of players,size, and talent and year 2 with the lack of experience. I keep finding myself wanting to beat up on him, but I usually stop myself and try to examine context. This year, due to the unbalanced roster but deep team talent pool, I believe he has the opportunity to due some truly innovative and creative things. I just haven't seen enough to believe he can. But I am still hopeful.
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To take this discussion out of the recruiting thread.......
I felt that Crean was good at preparation and motivation but terrible at in-game adjustments. He was lousy at stopping runs by coming up with a new wrinkle. He got outcoached regularly. I thought he was a good, not great, recruiter. Failed to string together consecutive solid classes, failed to exploit the final 4, failed to recruit and develop quality bigs. But, IMO, his biggest weakness was in-game adjustments.
Buzz couldn't recruit quality bigs or quality point guards. But he sure knew how to motivate the switchables. I am constantly amazed that people downplay his X's and O's. He won with the smallest team in D1. Talented, yes, but smaller than some high school teams. He won without post players. He won playing a 6.5 player rotation. He won without dominating point guards. To string together a 5 season run (yes, year 6 sucked) with the rosters he had means he had to be doing some amazing alchemy. And that requires in-game moves, adjustments, wrinkles. He made other, very good, very experienced coaches adjust to what he was doing. Crean never was able to do that at MU.
Wojo gets an 'incomplete' so far. It is difficult to assess his in-game wrinkles when you look at the overarching shortcomings of his first two rosters, year one with lack of players,size, and talent and year 2 with the lack of experience. I keep finding myself wanting to beat up on him, but I usually stop myself and try to examine context. This year, due to the unbalanced roster but deep team talent pool, I believe he has the opportunity to due some truly innovative and creative things. I just haven't seen enough to believe he can. But I am still hopeful.
You're selling Gardner and Otule short. Not to mention, McKay w as big-time get but he flaked out just prior to the season. Sure, there wasn't a lot of depth in the big man department but that's why the switchables were so important. Lazar, Butler, Crowder, Jamil, etc all filled the roles of big men when they needed to and did an admirable job. Truth be told, Buzz is the 2nd best coach is MU basketball history.
If Buzz was given MU's current team, they'd make the tournament. I'm confident that Wojo can do the same...OK, OK, maybe more hopeful than confident.
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I think Crean's problem is that he switches too early in a game from playing to win to playing not to lose. He has lost many leads at home by doing this. There is no bigger way to make your fans mad than to give away a win at home. Buzz's thought process is much simpler. Basically every play matters and expects every player to play hard on every play. He has won a lot of games by his players always being tougher than the other team. Buzz may be better at teaching his players to be tough than he is at X's & O's. Wojo is similar to Buzz in that he believes in paint touches and making more free throws that the other team shoots. So far, partially due to youth, his players have not been as tough as Buzz's players. However, I not sure that players that work on being three point shooters are tough players. It is much easier to shoot a three than to try to compete on the inside. Buzz's weakness was not recruiting enough shooters. Wojo's weakness might be recruiting too many shooters. You need shooters and bangers to be good.
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You're selling Gardner and Otule short. Not to mention, McKay w as big-time get but he flaked out just prior to the season. Sure, there wasn't a lot of depth in the big man department but that's why the switchables were so important. Lazar, Butler, Crowder, Jamil, etc all filled the roles of big men when they needed to and did an admirable job. Truth be told, Buzz is the 2nd best coach is MU basketball history.
If Buzz was given MU's current team, they'd make the tournament. I'm confident that Wojo can do the same...OK, OK, maybe more hopeful than confident.
I wouldn't call it so much as selling Gardner and Otule short, as they were both talented bigs that Buzz had. But neither were "quality bigs" in terms of recruiting. Both were complete unknowns that were not gaining a whole lot of other high major interest.
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You're selling Gardner and Otule short. Not to mention, McKay w as big-time get but he flaked out just prior to the season. Sure, there wasn't a lot of depth in the big man department but that's why the switchables were so important. Lazar, Butler, Crowder, Jamil, etc all filled the roles of big men when they needed to and did an admirable job. Truth be told, Buzz is the 2nd best coach is MU basketball history.
If Buzz was given MU's current team, they'd make the tournament. I'm confident that Wojo can do the same...OK, OK, maybe more hopeful than confident.
Otule maximized his abilities, but was frail. Gardner was an offensive force, but ultimately a one dimensional big. I agree that Buzz was the second best coach in MU history. I think that if he was able to get MU's 16-17 team to play to his standards of toughness and intensity, it would be at least a second weekend of the tournament team. I am less optimistic that Wojo can make the tourney. That does not mean, however, I have given up on him or want him gone.
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Buzz is the 2nd best coach in Marquette history and it's not even close. The only caveat is I would take Majerus in his prime but we didn't get Majerus in his prime.
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Buzz is the 2nd best coach in Marquette history and it's not even close. The only caveat is I would take Majerus in his prime but we didn't get Majerus in his prime.
If it's everyone in their prime it's
1) Al
2) Tex Winters
3) Majerus
4) Buzz
If it's based on their time at MU then yes there's a big drop from buzz to Crean/Raymonds/O'Neil
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You're selling Gardner and Otule short. Not to mention, McKay w as big-time get but he flaked out just prior to the season. Sure, there wasn't a lot of depth in the big man department but that's why the switchables were so important. Lazar, Butler, Crowder, Jamil, etc all filled the roles of big men when they needed to and did an admirable job. Truth be told, Buzz is the 2nd best coach is MU basketball history.
If Buzz was given MU's current team, they'd make the tournament. I'm confident that Wojo can do the same...OK, OK, maybe more hopeful than confident.
His performance in 2013-14 would contradict this statement. The 2013-14 roster was arguably more talented or at least as talented as this years roster. Buzz went 17-15 and didn't sniff any postseason.
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I agree Buzz was and continues to be a very good coach. He was very good at hiding his teams weaknesses and maximizing his team's strengths. I think he was a more than adequate recruiter. The problem Buzz had was a huge inferiority complex that I believe comes from his upbringing. He cared too much what people thought of him which can be a liability in big time college coaching. I think that is why we allowed his name to be brought up so much for coaching vacancies. He had to have that kind of affirmation. So when it seemed like the admin didn't approve of the way he was doing things he lost control of his final season at MU and then bolted for the first decent job he could find. Buzz was only comfortable playing the underdog role which is much easier to play and use to motivate your team. Even if the Admin had fully backed him I'm not sure Buzz is the kind of coach who can win with a program that is expected to win. That is a trait that the truly great coaches have like Coach K, Izzo, Self, Roy etc. Can you win when there is a target on your back. Al certainly could.
I suspect that if Wojo is successful here (and that is very much to be determined as of now) he will be able to make that jump to succeeding when success is expected because that would have been ingrained in him during his 16 years at Duke.
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One year out of six that he did not get the most out of his team.
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One year out of six that he did not get the most out of his team.
Compared to how many out of 2 where Wojo didn't get the most out of his team?
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I am firmly on the fence about Wojo.
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His performance in 2013-14 would contradict this statement. The 2013-14 roster was arguably more talented or at least as talented as this years roster. Buzz went 17-15 and didn't sniff any postseason.
The 2013-14 team needed Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson to each play 30 min/gm (top two players in minutes). With all due respect to those guys and that team, it was not more talented than this year's team.
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I am firmly on the fence about Wojo.
I'm just wondering if you think Wojo got less out of the past 2 teams than he could've. You've probably been the most vocal poster about how you can't expect anything out of freshman so last year you expected nothing from the team. And the year before your core group of guys was a redshirt freshman Duane Wilson, Derrick Wilson, Matt Carlino, Steve Taylor, and, for half of a season, Luke Fischer. Not many coaches are winning many games with that lineup.
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The 2013-14 team needed Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson to each play 30 min/gm (top two players in minutes). With all due respect to those guys and that team, it was not more talented than this year's team.
Vander Blue was going to be the central player on Buzz's last team, but we know how that worked out. Players leave all the time and that needs to be expected, but Blue's leaving really left a hole that couldn't be filled in time for the next season. While there was chatter about Blue leaving, everyone was essentially shocked or perplexed at his decision.
Ellenson leaving is different animal. Everyone knew from when he signed his LOI that he had the talent to make the jump and no one was surprised when it happened. Thus, Wojo shouldn't get much slack related to his departure because he should have planned his future rosters accordingly.
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The 2013-14 team needed Jake Thomas and Derrick Wilson to each play 30 min/gm (top two players in minutes). With all due respect to those guys and that team, it was not more talented than this year's team.
You say we needed them to play those minutes. That isn't true, there was a ton of talent sitting on the bench.
Buzz mismanaged that team tremendously. Jake would have been a great asset, but Buzz admittedly refused to design a play or call a play for him. Thats just inane coaching. Jake was not a player that was going to create for himself. It is the coaches responsibility to adapt in those situations. Buzz just refused to do so, he essentially tanked that season.
As for the limitations of D.Will. Hell, Wojo (who people say is a worse coach) found a way to win by playing Cheatham at point, who never had played that position before. Buzz could have found a way to use JJJ, Mayo or even a point-forward (Jamil Wilson) to overcome the limitations of D.Will...not to mention that D.Will (senior) was a better pg than Wojo had last year, when he found a way to still win 20 games.
As good as a job Buzz did in adapting for the midget team, he did an equally poor job adapting to the talent on the 13-14 team.
And if we are going with team limitations. We are going to have a bunch of 6-5/6-6 guys play the 4 this year and sometimes fill in at the 5. Similar personnel limitations.
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I'm just wondering if you think Wojo got less out of the past 2 teams than he could've. You've probably been the most vocal poster about how you can't expect anything out of freshman so last year you expected nothing from the team. And the year before your core group of guys was a redshirt freshman Duane Wilson, Derrick Wilson, Matt Carlino, Steve Taylor, and, for half of a season, Luke Fischer. Not many coaches are winning many games with that lineup.
You were not asking me, but I will give you my opinion. Wojo's first year, Carlino had a serious concussion and I believe we lost every game without him. We won two games in Florida and beat Providence that I did not expect to win. I was not happy with the season, but I am not sure anyone else would of done better. However, I did not expect to lose the conference opener to DePaul or to Nebraska Omaha (?). Last year beating Providence twice, LSU and Wisconsin were wins that I was not expecting. Losing to DePaul and maybe Creighton at home were downers. Losing to Belmont really hurt. However, I do not think we would of lost to Belmont a month later. I actually had lower expectations for last year than most posters here so 8-10 in conference was pretty good. Depending on what I focus on I can say Wojo exceeded my expectations or I can say he disappointed me. I would say the program has disappointed me more than Wojo.
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You were not asking me, but I will give you my opinion. Wojo's first year, Carlino had a serious concussion and I believe we lost every game without him. We won two games in Florida and beat Providence that I did not expect to win. I was not happy with the season, but I am not sure anyone else would of done better. However, I did not expect to lose the conference opener to DePaul or to Nebraska Omaha (?). Last year beating Providence twice, LSU and Wisconsin were wins that I was not expecting. Losing to DePaul and maybe Creighton at home were downers. Losing to Belmont really hurt. However, I do not think we would of lost to Belmont a month later. I actually had lower expectations for last year than most posters here so 8-10 in conference was pretty good. Depending on what I focus on I can say Wojo exceeded my expectations or I can say he disappointed me. I would say the program has disappointed me more than Wojo.
Fair response and hard to argue with any of it. I was just curious because tower said both in pregame predictions all season last year and his overall season predictions as a whole that relying on freshman doesn't lead to success, so I would think that whether Buzz, Crean, or Wojo were coaching, his expectations would've been somewhat similar with the same roster last year. And I would think the year before no coach in America would do anything significant with that roster. So to me I would think in Wojo's 2 years as a head coach he's done just about as well as Buzz, Crean, or most others probably would've done with the same roster and thus find it interesting that someone would conclude one of those coaches would do so significantly better than Wojo based on what's been done so far.
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I am firmly on the fence about Wojo.
I'm on the perch with you - hoping Wojo gets me off that fence this year.
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If it's everyone in their prime it's
1) Al
2) Tex Winters
3) Majerus
4) Buzz
If it's based on their time at MU then yes there's a big drop from buzz to Crean/Raymonds/O'Neil
1) Al
2) _____________
3) Maybe someday
4) Hillbilly
5) Crean
6) Tex
7) Raymonds
8) Wojo
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You say we needed them to play those minutes. That isn't true, there was a ton of talent sitting on the bench.
Who? JJJ - a wildly inconsistent frosh with no outside shot? Eonte Burton? John Dawson?
Buzz mismanaged that team tremendously. Jake would have been a great asset, but Buzz admittedly refused to design a play or call a play for him. Thats just inane coaching. Jake was not a player that was going to create for himself. It is the coaches responsibility to adapt in those situations. Buzz just refused to do so, he essentially tanked that season.
When did Buzz say that he refused to design plays for Jake?
As for the limitations of D.Will. Hell, Wojo (who people say is a worse coach) found a way to win by playing Cheatham at point, who never had played that position before. Buzz could have found a way to use JJJ, Mayo or even a point-forward (Jamil Wilson) to overcome the limitations of D.Will...not to mention that D.Will (senior) was a better pg than Wojo had last year, when he found a way to still win 20 games.
So, your solution to the PG situation was to bench the team's best ball-handler and only above average perimeter defender and give the reins to the two most TO-prone players on the team? Interesting strategy.
As good as a job Buzz did in adapting for the midget team, he did an equally poor job adapting to the talent on the 13-14 team.
Again, where exactly was all the talent on the '13-14 team?
Finally, the 2013-14 team went 2-4 in OT games and lost two more one-possession games. Buzz's team typically had a very thin margin for error and that season they ended up on the wrong side of most of the close ones...you know, because Buzz tanked the season ::)
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1) Al
2) _____________
3) Maybe someday
4) Hillbilly
5) Crean
6) Tex
7) Raymonds
8) Wojo
At MU or in their prime? Because I'd take prime Kstate Tex or Utah Majerus over any coach on that list not named Al
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My biggest issue with Crean were his set plays. Too complex for college players. Too much thinking of where you needed to be on the court and yelling incessantly at them did not help.
Buzz kept the offense much simpler which helps younger players figure it out quicker.
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Best X's & O's = Majerus
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You say we needed them to play those minutes. That isn't true, there was a ton of talent sitting on the bench.
Buzz mismanaged that team tremendously. Jake would have been a great asset, but Buzz admittedly refused to design a play or call a play for him. Thats just inane coaching. Jake was not a player that was going to create for himself. It is the coaches responsibility to adapt in those situations. Buzz just refused to do so, he essentially tanked that season.
As for the limitations of D.Will. Hell, Wojo (who people say is a worse coach) found a way to win by playing Cheatham at point, who never had played that position before. Buzz could have found a way to use JJJ, Mayo or even a point-forward (Jamil Wilson) to overcome the limitations of D.Will...not to mention that D.Will (senior) was a better pg than Wojo had last year, when he found a way to still win 20 games.
As good as a job Buzz did in adapting for the midget team, he did an equally poor job adapting to the talent on the 13-14 team.
And if we are going with team limitations. We are going to have a bunch of 6-5/6-6 guys play the 4 this year and sometimes fill in at the 5. Similar personnel limitations.
Three comments.
First Wojo gave up with the idea of Cheatham playing point, which you could argue shows that Wojo was willing to adjust. (point for Wojo).
Second Buzz's 17-15 team played a significantly tougher schedule. (point for Buzz)
Without looking at the schedule and relying on my memory (which often gets me in trouble with you guys), Buzz's team was still in the running for an NCAA bid with three games to go in the conference season and lost some critical games in overtime. Neither team got an NIT bid, but Buzz's team was much closer to getting a bid than Wojo's. These are the things I remember happening at the end of the season. Ball being passed into Thomas who holds the ball expecting to be fouled and gets a jump called instead. Play turn a win into a loss. Home game with MU down needing a basket to tie or win. Buzz designs play for Jamil. Other team covers Jamil well and he throws it to Derrick who misses a 10ft jumper and even worse does not hit the rim taking away a chance for a tip in. It may of been the same game as Thomas being tied up. Late in game, MU is up, Derrick has ball and misses a wide open three point shot with plenty of time still on the clock. MU also lost to San Diego St. with Gardner playing with the flu. Arizona St. beats MU when Derrick misses layup instead of giving the ball to Thomas who single handily got MU back into the game. Basically everything went wrong that season. The exact opposite of Buzz's second season where everything went right. That season MU won three overtime games in a row and then two Big East tournament games to squeak out an NCAA bid. We praise Buzz for being a great coach for going 22-15 with that team. He may of been more lucky than good. We criticize buzz for going 17-15 with his last team. He may of been more unlucky than bad. Coming off an Elite 8 my expectations for that team with Blue and McKay was off the charts. That team was cursed as soon as Blue left.
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If it's everyone in their prime it's
1) Al
2) Tex Winters
3) Majerus
4) Buzz
If it's based on their time at MU then yes there's a big drop from buzz to Crean/Raymonds/O'Neil
Why would we go "in their prime" as opposed to during their time at MU?
Who's the greatest all-time Was/Bal Bullet/Wizard: Wes Unseld or Michael Jordan?
Greatest Seattle Seahawks in history? Jerry Rice.
Willie Mays was snubbed from the Mets' 50th Anniversary team!
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I wouldn't call it so much as selling Gardner and Otule short, as they were both talented bigs that Buzz had. But neither were "quality bigs" in terms of recruiting. Both were complete unknowns that were not gaining a whole lot of other high major interest.
I think you can go all the way and say neither receieved any high major interest. Gardner's next best offer was South Florida, and I not certain that Otule had any other offers at all, certainly no high major or likely even mid-major.
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I'm on the perch with you - hoping Wojo gets me off that fence this year.
I agree. But the point of discussing this is to use what information we have on Wojo to make a guess on whether he is likely to succeed or not. You can't take anything from the first year particularly once Carlino got hurt. This year I was very concerned for the first 2/3 of the season because they didn't appear to have any goal on offense as to what they were trying to do. Normally I would say that is on the coach. However by the final 3rd of the season their offense actually looked organized and well run. So maybe the first 2/3 they were simply too young and unfamiliar with each other to execute what he trained them to do in practice. If that is true and since all the major players except HE are back it should bode well for the upcoming season AND we should see evidence of that early on. The concerning thing about the end of last year was as good as their offense had become their defense seemed to go backward. That is a concern because Wojo was supposed to be a defense focused guy and the BE tends to be a defense league. Wojo has yet to show he can improve the way individual players play defense and then change either the players or the defensive strategy (zone or gimmick defenses) to break another team's momentum. He did it with zone when he had to his first year and it worked until he got completely overmatched but the team seemed content to try to out score people at the end of last year and that is concerning.
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My biggest issue with Crean were his set plays. Too complex for college players. Too much thinking of where you needed to be on the court and yelling incessantly at them did not help.
Buzz kept the offense much simpler which helps younger players figure it out quicker.
Not that he played freshmen much.
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Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?
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Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?
Considering we've only seen one season of his first and only recruiting class at MU, I'd say that'll be determined this upcoming season.
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I'm just wondering if you think Wojo got less out of the past 2 teams than he could've. You've probably been the most vocal poster about how you can't expect anything out of freshman so last year you expected nothing from the team. And the year before your core group of guys was a redshirt freshman Duane Wilson, Derrick Wilson, Matt Carlino, Steve Taylor, and, for half of a season, Luke Fischer. Not many coaches are winning many games with that lineup.
We agree.
14-15.... I think he squeezed about as much out of that team as he could. He set down important benchmarks for expected performance, choosing to DNP-CD JjJ and running with 7. Fischer was never healthy, Carlino missed games with a concussion..... yes, he squeezed as much as he could out of that line up
15-16.... A very young team..... Wojo didn't cost the team much
It isn't fair to Wojo, because he didn't really underachieve. He didn't overachieve, either. He delivered about what I expected from both teams. No better, no worse.
This year, IMO, the lack of size beyond Fischer/Heldt is going to be a chronic Achilles heel for this team. I expect that MU will be as good or better than last year; another 20 win season, but an NIT berth, not NCAA berth. For me to get off of the fence about Wojo, he needs to put a team out there that exceeds expectations. He hasn't shown any magic yet. He has been workmanlike, met expectations, but not done anything beyond those expectations.
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Crean sucks
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Three comments.
First Wojo gave up with the idea of Cheatham playing point, which you could argue shows that Wojo was willing to adjust. (point for Wojo).
Second Buzz's 17-15 team played a significantly tougher schedule. (point for Buzz)
Without looking at the schedule and relying on my memory (which often gets me in trouble with you guys), Buzz's team was still in the running for an NCAA bid with three games to go in the conference season and lost some critical games in overtime. Neither team got an NIT bid, but Buzz's team was much closer to getting a bid than Wojo's. These are the things I remember happening at the end of the season. Ball being passed into Thomas who holds the ball expecting to be fouled and gets a jump called instead. Play turn a win into a loss. Home game with MU down needing a basket to tie or win. Buzz designs play for Jamil. Other team covers Jamil well and he throws it to Derrick who misses a 10ft jumper and even worse does not hit the rim taking away a chance for a tip in. It may of been the same game as Thomas being tied up. Late in game, MU is up, Derrick has ball and misses a wide open three point shot with plenty of time still on the clock. MU also lost to San Diego St. with Gardner playing with the flu. Arizona St. beats MU when Derrick misses layup instead of giving the ball to Thomas who single handily got MU back into the game. Basically everything went wrong that season. The exact opposite of Buzz's second season where everything went right. That season MU won three overtime games in a row and then two Big East tournament games to squeak out an NCAA bid. We praise Buzz for being a great coach for going 22-15 with that team. He may of been more lucky than good. We criticize buzz for going 17-15 with his last team. He may of been more unlucky than bad. Coming off an Elite 8 my expectations for that team with Blue and McKay was off the charts. That team was cursed as soon as Blue left.
The 2010 team started 2-5 in conference with the 5 losses by a combined 11 points. The luck turned around at the end of the season.
It's why I'm not convinced we actually made significant progress last year. We won a lot of close games that we lost in 2015.
My biggest question with last year's tactics was why the uptempo if our guards were turning it over so much?
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Why would we go "in their prime" as opposed to during their time at MU?
Who's the greatest all-time Was/Bal Bullet/Wizard: Wes Unseld or Michael Jordan?
Greatest Seattle Seahawks in history? Jerry Rice.
Willie Mays was snubbed from the Mets' 50th Anniversary team!
The Lens brought up majerus in his prime I was just saying if we're talking about coaches hitting their stride later then Tex has to be the biggest loss.
For the record I think Wojo will be another in the line of Tex and Rick. Great coach but Marquette doesn't get to enjoy that success.
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Who? JJJ - a wildly inconsistent frosh with no outside shot? Eonte Burton? John Dawson?
When did Buzz say that he refused to design plays for Jake?
So, your solution to the PG situation was to bench the team's best ball-handler and only above average perimeter defender and give the reins to the two most TO-prone players on the team? Interesting strategy.
Again, where exactly was all the talent on the '13-14 team?
Finally, the 2013-14 team went 2-4 in OT games and lost two more one-possession games. Buzz's team typically had a very thin margin for error and that season they ended up on the wrong side of most of the close ones...you know, because Buzz tanked the season ::)
You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will. Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.
As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.
As for talent. The team had: Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player, Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos. They were not developed by him at all. Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).
The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season. The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.
Your last point is important. Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament.
Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10). He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).
He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.
As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far. This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe. Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations. NIT is the reasonable expectation.
Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).
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You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will. Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.
As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.
As for talent. The team had: Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player, Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos. They were not developed by him at all. Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).
The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season. The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.
Your last point is important. Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament.
Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10). He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).
He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.
As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far. This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe. Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations. NIT is the reasonable expectation.
Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).
Robert Jackson disagrees with you.
What? JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.
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ND sucks
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The best X's and O's coach was Hank...while he was Al's assistant.
John freakin' Wooden used to call him for coaching advice.
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Robert Jackson disagrees with you.
What? JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.
Damn, I was debating saying 10 or 15 years. Robert Jackson seems longer than 15 years ago, but you are right. Gardner is no Robert Jackson.
As for JJJ v. Jamil and/or Heldt v. Gardner.
Coming into 13-14, there were several on here that thought Jamil and Gardner could make the NBA. No one is saying JJJ and Heldt are making the NBA after this season.
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Robert Jackson disagrees with you.
What? JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.
And again, I'm not saying Buzz wasn't a good coach he was a great coach. But this years team would have been at best the 2nd worst team Buzz would have coached (very comparable to his worst). He wasn't any more likely to make the NCAA than Wojo with this bunch.
If we are ranking coaches. There is:
1. Al
2-5. (All comparable and in no order) Crean, Hank, O'neil and Buzz.
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Damn, I was debating saying 10 or 15 years. Robert Jackson seems longer than 15 years ago, but you are right. Gardner is no Robert Jackson.
As for JJJ v. Jamil and/or Heldt v. Gardner.
Coming into 13-14, there were several on here that thought Jamil and Gardner could make the NBA. No one is saying JJJ and Heldt are making the NBA after this season.
Yes. As good as Davante was, Robert Jackson would have dominated him. Jackson is one of the more underrated Marquette players in my lifetime. Probably mostly due to the fact that he played only one year at Marquette and next to Dwyane Wade.
Whoever was saying Davante could potentially make the NBA at any point in his life simply doesn't understand what it takes to play in the NBA. Jamil at least had the physical tools that would've allowed him to at least have a chance to make it to the NBA, but he never came close to the ability to put it all together. Neither of those guys had any chance at the NBA.
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Three comments.
First Wojo gave up with the idea of Cheatham playing point, which you could argue shows that Wojo was willing to adjust. (point for Wojo).
Second Buzz's 17-15 team played a significantly tougher schedule. (point for Buzz)
Without looking at the schedule and relying on my memory (which often gets me in trouble with you guys), Buzz's team was still in the running for an NCAA bid with three games to go in the conference season and lost some critical games in overtime. Neither team got an NIT bid, but Buzz's team was much closer to getting a bid than Wojo's. These are the things I remember happening at the end of the season. Ball being passed into Thomas who holds the ball expecting to be fouled and gets a jump called instead. Play turn a win into a loss. Home game with MU down needing a basket to tie or win. Buzz designs play for Jamil. Other team covers Jamil well and he throws it to Derrick who misses a 10ft jumper and even worse does not hit the rim taking away a chance for a tip in. It may of been the same game as Thomas being tied up. Late in game, MU is up, Derrick has ball and misses a wide open three point shot with plenty of time still on the clock. MU also lost to San Diego St. with Gardner playing with the flu. Arizona St. beats MU when Derrick misses layup instead of giving the ball to Thomas who single handily got MU back into the game. Basically everything went wrong that season. The exact opposite of Buzz's second season where everything went right. That season MU won three overtime games in a row and then two Big East tournament games to squeak out an NCAA bid. We praise Buzz for being a great coach for going 22-15 with that team. He may of been more lucky than good. We criticize buzz for going 17-15 with his last team. He may of been more unlucky than bad. Coming off an Elite 8 my expectations for that team with Blue and McKay was off the charts. That team was cursed as soon as Blue left.
Your memory is slightly fuzzy.
The 3 OT wins on the road came with the midget team that got a 6 seed.
The 22-15 team that needed to squeak in with the big WVU BE tourney win was the following year when Jimmy got us to sweet 16.
Both won two BET games but that 2nd year team ended up not being on much of a bubble as shown by their seed
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Yes. As good as Davante was, Robert Jackson would have dominated him. Jackson is one of the more underrated Marquette players in my lifetime. Probably mostly due to the fact that he played only one year at Marquette and next to Dwyane Wade.
Whoever was saying Davante could potentially make the NBA at any point in his life simply doesn't understand what it takes to play in the NBA. Jamil at least had the physical tools that would've allowed him to at least have a chance to make it to the NBA, but he never came close to the ability to put it all together. Neither of those guys had any chance at the NBA.
Agree on all accounts. When I was saying NBA talent I was using what a lot of people mistakenly use. Being a college star. Gardner was a college all-star, (so people thought he could play in the NBA), that isn't how things work though. Point was at the college level the 13-14 team wasn't talent poor by any means.
What they lacked was the leader that could totally take over the game. Unfortunately, this years team doesn't have that either...at least yet.
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Agree on all accounts. When I was saying NBA talent I was using what a lot of people mistakenly use. Being a college star. Gardner was a college all-star, (so people thought he could play in the NBA), that isn't how things work though. Point was at the college level the 13-14 team wasn't talent poor by any means.
What they lacked was the leader that could totally take over the game. Unfortunately, this years team doesn't have that either...at least yet.
TWO WORDS: SACAR ANIM! HE WILL BE THAT PLAYER FOR US NEXT SEASON AND NO DOUBT WILL BE A SOLID NBA CONTRIBUTOR IN FEW YEARS. THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE TRANSFORMATIVE SEASON SACAR IS ABOUT TO HAVE ONLY BENEFIT HIM PERSONALLY OR THE ENTIRE TEAM. THA'S THE $1M QUESTION.
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TWO WORDS: SACAR ANIM! HE WILL BE THAT PLAYER FOR US NEXT SEASON AND NO DOUBT WILL BE A SOLID NBA CONTRIBUTOR IN FEW YEARS. THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE TRANSFORMATIVE SEASON SACAR IS ABOUT TO HAVE ONLY BENEFIT HIM PERSONALLY OR THE ENTIRE TEAM. THA'S THE $1M QUESTION.
K.
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Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?
More experienced roster, and much improved outside shooting.
Rebounding? Not so much.
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You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will. Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.
As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.
As for talent. The team had: Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player, Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos. They were not developed by him at all. Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).
The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season. The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.
Your last point is important. Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament.
Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10). He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).
He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.
As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far. This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe. Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations. NIT is the reasonable expectation.
Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).
I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.
Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.
Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.
Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.
Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.
As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).
We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.
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I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.
Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.
Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.
Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.
Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.
As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).
We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.
I agree with the premise of this but I think you're off on a few things.
Wesley and Jae are closer to stars than you let on. Wesley, at least pre-injury was a borderline all star. Jae is probably the 2nd best player on a 4 seed playoff team last year and one of the best defenders in the league.
I think Jamil is a fringe NBA player. He's not going to make it, but he's a guy who will constantly be called into summer league and be one of the last 2 or 3 cuts before the season starts. That screams "fringe NBA" to me. Maybe we're just defining it differently.
Team Bubble watch, we agree there. We were safely in the tournament 4 out of those 5 years, and that first 6 seed could have been far higher if it weren't for D. James foot injury. It did look like the midgets team was destined for the bubble (or worse) for awhile, but by the end of the year that team was safely off. The only year we were truly on the bubble was the 2010-11 team that ended up in the Sweet 16.
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If Jamil had assumed the mantle of leadership and taken on the competitive mindset of Butler or Crowder, he, too, could have made the league. However, his personality did not work that way while he was at MU. He had the physical tools.
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Considering we've only seen one season of his first and only recruiting class at MU, I'd say that'll be determined this upcoming season.
You keep repeating this but we have seen two of his recruiting classes, and all that is left of that first class is Sandy Cohen. I know you give him a pass on that first class, but I think that lost time was his biggest mistake, one we are still trying to dig out off entering Year 3.
He should of Wojo'ed the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys. As a result, we need five years to evaluate him. Crean and Buzz got right at it in their new gigs.
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If Jamil had assumed the mantle of leadership and taken on the competitive mindset of Butler or Crowder, he, too, could have made the league. However, his personality did not work that way while he was at MU. He had the physical tools.
Jamil was a really, really nice guy who had mad skills and liked to play basketball. But he was never consumed by the game and without that commitment he always left you hoping for or expecting a "more" that just wasn't there. High school, college, post college - it's who he was and is.
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I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.
Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.
Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.
Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.
Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.
As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).
We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.
Agree with pretty much all of this.
I was a big Buzz fan, and he deserves all the kudos you give him. But, in the name of objectivity ...
If you're going to get kudos for developing those players, you gotta get demerits for not developing Jamil ... for either under-recruiting guards and/or misjudging the readiness of young guards, which led to us having one of the worst starting backcourts in the nation in 2013-14 ... and sticking far too long with the Oxtule experiment.
BTW, I rate Buzz as our second-best coach since Al. Crean's FF run deserves major points, as does bringing Buzz to MU, but he's No. 3 to me. KO and Hankster probably tied for fourth.
Anybody who considers Majerus for what he did at Utah ... that's just silly. I liked Rick a lot, but he was pretty much a disaster for us as HC -- I mean, has any MU head coach failed to meet expectations as badly as Rick?
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You keep repeating this but we have seen two of his recruiting classes, and all that is left of that first class is Sandy Cohen. I know you give him a pass on that first class, but I think that lost time was his biggest mistake, one we are still trying to dig out off entering Year 3.
He should of Wojo'ed the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys. As a result, we need five years to evaluate him. Crean and Buzz got right at it in their new gigs.
I hope this is a joke. You realize that Crean's record at Marquette 2 seasons in was worse than Wojo's is 2 seasons in, in a much lesser conference, right? And that it took him until year 4 to win more than 12 games at a blue blood in Indiana, right? And that Bert was left with 3 of the best players to ever wear the MU uniform, all seniors, when he took over, right? And that Bert was able to take who he wanted from his MU class, plus who he wanted from James Johnson's VT recruiting class.
You realize that up until April 1, 2014, Wojo was recruiting for Duke University, not Marquette University, right? It takes literally years of building relationships to recruit kids to a basketball program. Kids follow head coaches who leave a program to take over a new program (Buzz from MU to VT, Crean from MU to IU). Kids don't follow assistant coaches from one blue blood to a bottom feeder in their conference (Crean from MSU to MU, Wojo from Duke to MU). Wojo had 6 months between getting the job and starting his first season at Marquette. By that point, how many high major division 1 senior basketball players were unsigned or uncommitted to programs? April of a year is too late to get in on juniors in high school. You think he should've brought in an outstanding recruiting class of 2014? Uh, okay........
:o
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I agree with the premise of this but I think you're off on a few things.
Wesley and Jae are closer to stars than you let on. Wesley, at least pre-injury was a borderline all star. Jae is probably the 2nd best player on a 4 seed playoff team last year and one of the best defenders in the league.
I think Jamil is a fringe NBA player. He's not going to make it, but he's a guy who will constantly be called into summer league and be one of the last 2 or 3 cuts before the season starts. That screams "fringe NBA" to me. Maybe we're just defining it differently.
Wesley career averages in 7 NBA seasons: 14.0 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.0 apg. Really good, yes - but a STAR?
Jae: 4 years, 7.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.2 apg. Solid, getting better, has the chance to become really good. At this point, definitely not a STAR.
In my mine, a "fringe" guy would be someone like Buycks (or better). In and out of the league multiple times, lots of 10 day or one year contracts. Guys who never make it but are decent for scrimmage purposes because they have comparable measurable to real NBA players? Nope.
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If you're going to get kudos for developing those players, you gotta get demerits for not developing Jamil ... for either under-recruiting guards and/or misjudging the readiness of young guards, which led to us having one of the worst starting backcourts in the nation in 2013-14 ... and sticking far too long with the Oxtule experiment.
BTW, I rate Buzz as our second-best coach since Al. Crean's FF run deserves major points, as does bringing Buzz to MU, but he's No. 3 to me. KO and Hankster probably tied for fourth.
Anybody who considers Majerus for what he did at Utah ... that's just silly. I liked Rick a lot, but he was pretty much a disaster for us as HC -- I mean, has any MU head coach failed to meet expectations as badly as Rick?
Nobody (HS, college, post college) has been able to turn on the switch that would transform Jamil into the single minded competitor he'd need to be to reach his full potential. Not trying to cop out, but maybe it just isn't there.
No doubt, Blue leaving caught Buzz totally flat-footed. He was as shocked as all of us, and that's on him.
Oxtule? He was looking for answers where there were none but he had to try something.
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Your memory is slightly fuzzy.
The 3 OT wins on the road came with the midget team that got a 6 seed.
The 22-15 team that needed to squeak in with the big WVU BE tourney win was the following year when Jimmy got us to sweet 16.
Both won two BET games but that 2ND year team ended up not being on much of a bubble as shown by their seed
You are probably right. Although there is a point I was trying to make and that seasons often turn on luck or simply the final play that works or does not work. UW fans are thinking they should have beat Notre Dame last year and are factoring that into their predictions for this year. That is a fair assumption, but they should of lost to Xavier and if they had their optimism would not be as great. Probably no different than getting an incredible comeback win against Davidson in Buzz's Elite 8 run. A shot falling or not falling makes a huge difference in a season. A shot that falls make the coach look like a great coach and shot that misses makes the coach look like a bad coach. All a coach can do his put his players in a position to win, but only the players can win the game.
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I hope this is a joke. You realize that Crean's record at Marquette 2 seasons in was worse than Wojo's is 2 seasons in, in a much lesser conference, right? And that it took him until year 4 to win more than 12 games at a blue blood in Indiana, right? And that Bert was left with 3 of the best players to ever wear the MU uniform, all seniors, when he took over, right? And that Bert was able to take who he wanted from his MU class, plus who he wanted from James Johnson's VT recruiting class.
You realize that up until April 1, 2014, Wojo was recruiting for Duke University, not Marquette University, right? It takes literally years of building relationships to recruit kids to a basketball program. Kids follow head coaches who leave a program to take over a new program (Buzz from MU to VT, Crean from MU to IU). Kids don't follow assistant coaches from one blue blood to a bottom feeder in their conference (Crean from MSU to MU, Wojo from Duke to MU). Wojo had 6 months between getting the job and starting his first season at Marquette. By that point, how many high major division 1 senior basketball players were unsigned or uncommitted to programs? April of a year is too late to get in on juniors in high school. You think he should've brought in an outstanding recruiting class of 2014? Uh, okay........
:o
Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo. Obviously, Wojo was doing something. By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone. Followed by Taylor at season's end. That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass. It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened. He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs. Nice guys finish last.
As to his record, I am fine with it considering the strategy above had the blessing of the admin. I thought last year was a bit of a disappointment but also with good . The end of the Buzz Era and the start of Wojo's were the result of a completely effed up university leadership that went well beyond basketball. The fact is with Wojo, it will take a full five years. No quick fixes, and the roster still has deep holes. Thus, the extension, though. It is what it is. But that start was time misspent to the detriment of the program.
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Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo. Obviously, Wojo was doing something. By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone. Followed by Taylor at season's end. That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass. It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened. He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs. Nice guys finish last.
Teal, right?
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Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo. Obviously, Wojo was doing something. By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone. Followed by Taylor at season's end. That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass. It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened. He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs. Nice guys finish last.
As to his record, I am fine with it considering the strategy above had the blessing of the admin. I thought last year was a bit of a disappointment but also with good . The end of the Buzz Era and the start of Wojo's were the result of a completely effed up university leadership that went well beyond basketball. The fact is with Wojo, it will take a full five years. No quick fixes, and the roster still has deep holes. Thus, the extension, though. It is what it is. But that start was time misspent to the detriment of the program.
I guess I'll ask again. Is this a joke?
I don't get it. In the original post I quoted of yours you say he needed to "Wojo the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys." Now you're complaining that Dawson, Mayo, Burton, and Taylor were gone. Which is it?
So what he should've done was wiped the program clean of every scholarship player besides for the ones he would've recruited himself to play the style he wanted, and try to recruit an entire new roster as of April 1, 2014?
Yeah, the problem is Wojo wasn't experienced and didn't know how to begin his rebuild. More experienced coaches would obviously have used that method.
I guess I'll shorten my argument by leaving it at this: Yes, Wojo should get a 100% pass on his first season.
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I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.
Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.
Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.
Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.
Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.
As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).
We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.
Actually, I do like Buzz a lot. Think he was and is a great coach. As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team.
Jimmy is a star. Wesley Matthews is a star. Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).
And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season.
The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc. They were also very good coaches. Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4. O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.
Buzz inherited one of the best teams we have had in decades. Superseded only by Wade and company. Buzz wasn't here long enough to compare as an all time great.
Oh, and on Jimmy Butler. You can go through the archives if you want, but I said his first year that he would be a star and in the NBA. And talk to Buzz sometime about Jimmy, I have. Buzz will say first hand that he didn't develop Jimmy, that Jimmy had the highest basketball IQ of any player he has seen and never left the gym working on his game by himself.
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Buzz has to have one of the better ratios for having players play in the nba. Right? (note: play. Not stay)
Wesley Matthews
Jerel McNeil
Lazar hayward
Dwight buycks
I gotta go =(
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Actually, I do like Buzz a lot. Think he was and is a great coach. As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team.
Jimmy is a star. Wesley Matthews is a star. Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).
And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season.
The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc. They were also very good coaches. Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4. O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.
Buzz inherited one of the best teams we have had in decades. Superseded only by Wade and company. Buzz wasn't here long enough to compare as an all time great.
Oh, and on Jimmy Butler. You can go through the archives if you want, but I said his first year that he would be a star and in the NBA. And talk to Buzz sometime about Jimmy, I have. Buzz will say first hand that he didn't develop Jimmy, that Jimmy had the highest basketball IQ of any player he has seen and never left the gym working on his game by himself.
Others can debate in this whatever they want. My only nit to pick is the casual way you throw around "star."
Wes absolutely is not a star. Jae is not close to being a star.
Loved them when they were Warriors and like watching them now in the NBA, but why try to claim they are something they're not?
Two outstanding college players, as seniors, anyway. One is a proven, good NBA performer; and one has the makings of a solid pro and hopefully more than that.
I'd be interested in your definition of "star."
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Wesley career averages in 7 NBA seasons: 14.0 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.0 apg. Really good, yes - but a STAR?
Jae: 4 years, 7.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.2 apg. Solid, getting better, has the chance to become really good. At this point, definitely not a STAR.
In my mine, a "fringe" guy would be someone like Buycks (or better). In and out of the league multiple times, lots of 10 day or one year contracts. Guys who never make it but are decent for scrimmage purposes because they have comparable measurable to real NBA players? Nope.
Fair. I think I just have a looser definition of "fringe" and "star" than you do. Wes, in his two pre-Achilles seasons, averaged 16.4 ppg and 15.9 ppg. He was also known as one of the best defenders in the league. A lot of "being a star" is unfairly about publicity. For example, Demar DeRozan is a "star" and an Olympian at the same position. He wasn't a better player then Wes from 2013-2015.
Jae...yeah. "Star" is a reach. But he's a very good, valuable player. And without him Boston would be significantly worse.
Regarding Jamil, I think that's fair. We have different definitions of what a "fringe" NBA player is. No argument there.
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Fair. I think I just have a looser definition of "fringe" and "star" than you do. Wes, in his two pre-Achilles seasons, averaged 16.4 ppg and 15.9 ppg. He was also known as one of the best defenders in the league. A lot of "being a star" is unfairly about publicity. For example, Demar DeRozan is a "star" and an Olympian at the same position. He wasn't a better player then Wes from 2013-2015.
Huh?
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Actually, I do like Buzz a lot. Think he was and is a great coach. As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team.
Jimmy is a star. Wesley Matthews is a star. Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).
And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season.
The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc. They were also very good coaches. Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4. O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.
1."Team Bubble Watch" isn't "your term". So what? It's verifiably inaccurate yet you used it to make a point.
2.Your standard for stardom is lower than anyone not related to Wesley or Jae.
3. Who cares what "what a lot of people on the board were saying" before Jamil and Davonte's senior year. Facts show they're not "fringe NBA players". In Davonte's case they show he never was.
4. No one compares Buzz to Al - Al is in a class by himself. He was better than Crean or O'Neill, though, by any fair measure.
5. It is inaccurate to say that Tom Crean has been "immensely successful" at Indiana.
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Team Bubble Watch wasn't inaccurate. In 2010, we spent most of the season on the outside looking in after our 2-5 league start. We got hot and climbed off the bubble, but that 6 seed shocked everyone. In 2011, we were one of the last teams into the field. Those two years got us the nickname, and it was reinforced in 2014 when we rode a 5-1 stretch back up to a 17-11 record. Two more wins would have given us a shot, but instead we lost at Nova, lost a pair of double overtime games by 1 point each to Providence and St John's, and lost by 3 to Xavier in NYC. We spent 3/5 seasons on the bubble. We didn't come across the nickname by chance.
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Teal, right?
Facts. I don't revise history.
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I guess I'll ask again. Is this a joke?
I don't get it. In the original post I quoted of yours you say he needed to "Wojo the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys." Now you're complaining that Dawson, Mayo, Burton, and Taylor were gone. Which is it?
So what he should've done was wiped the program clean of every scholarship player besides for the ones he would've recruited himself to play the style he wanted, and try to recruit an entire new roster as of April 1, 2014?
Yeah, the problem is Wojo wasn't experienced and didn't know how to begin his rebuild. More experienced coaches would obviously have used that method.
I guess I'll shorten my argument by leaving it at this: Yes, Wojo should get a 100% pass on his first season.
Please read. I am not complaining they are gone. I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys. Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history. He wasted a year playing nicey nice. And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.
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Please read. I am not complaining they are gone. I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys. Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history. He wasted a year playing nicey nice. And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.
Go back 3 months and look through who was available for the 2016 recruiting class. What would you have liked Wojo to have done? Cut Duane, JJJ, Cohen, Dawson, Taylor, Juan, and Deonte (guys he never would recruit if they were, say, in the class of 2017) and get...who, exactly?
I guess he probably could've walked over to the Rec Center on a Thursday evening and found 10 ready-made Big East caliber studs who just happened to not want to play college basketball and instead just pay $30K/year to attend Marquette University and play some pickup ball that are big, strong, quick, and shoot the lights out.
If you think Wojo could've come in and cut the roster down to 3 scholarship players, 1 of whom wouldn't be eligible until the 2nd semester, and somehow come out better than he has, I really don't know what to say.
Then again you probably think he could've just got Jhalil Okafor, Justice Winslow, Tyus Jones, and Grayson Allen to ask for their release from their NLIs to Duke (because, again, they were high school seniors...in April...already signed...like all high major recruits...) and get them to come along with him to Marquette.
I can't believe I didn't think of that. You're right. Wojo screwed the pooch on this one!
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Please read. I am not complaining they are gone. I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys. Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history. He wasted a year playing nicey nice. And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.
Who the eff was he supposed to get?
Names, please.
If you can't provide the names of at least three available players he (or any MU coach) could have realistically landed after he arrived on campus in mid-April, you are criticizing for the sake of criticizing.
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Others can debate in this whatever they want. My only nit to pick is the casual way you throw around "star."
Wes absolutely is not a star. Jae is not close to being a star.
Loved them when they were Warriors and like watching them now in the NBA, but why try to claim they are something they're not?
Two outstanding college players, as seniors, anyway. One is a proven, good NBA performer; and one has the makings of a solid pro and hopefully more than that.
I'd be interested in your definition of "star."
Here is the way I was looking at it. Prior to Matthews injury, he would have started for probably every team in the NBA (at the 2 or 3 depending on the rest of the roster). I deem that a star. I know the Mavericks consider him a star.
For Crowder, it is more complicated. I'd ask this first. Was Bruce Bowen a star?
Crowder is one of the best defenders in the league, can guard 3 positions and is at least an offensive threat. He's probably one of the top 10, 3 and D players in the NBA. He's also only 25.
Now if you don't think D makes one a star then Crowder isn't a star (and Matthews likely isn't either). But they are hot commodities, because of their value on both ends of the floor. That's my rationale, but its all just opinion so I understand some will disagree.
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Here is the way I was looking at it. Prior to Matthews injury, he would have started for probably every team in the NBA (at the 2 or 3 depending on the rest of the roster). I deem that a star.
Wes would not have started for "probably every team in the NBA."
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Wes would not have started for "probably every team in the NBA."
You're an NBA officianado so I will take your word for it. I was just having a hard time coming up with teams that wouldn't have killed for his services before his injury.
At most I was coming up with a handful...but again, not familiar enough with all the teams so I'll take your word on this and crawl away.
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Jae is far from a star but Wes was certainly almost there. If u recall he was like the first or second player without enough votes to make the all star game. That qualified as borderline star. Jae is not, perhaps if he starts getting all defensive team mentions he can be in his own right.
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Huh?
Not sure what you're confused about.
If we're considering DeRozan a star, and a lot of people do, then Wes can't be far off. Wes is a better player. Better Efg%, better defender, similar rebounding and assist rates.
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TWO WORDS: SACAR ANIM! HE WILL BE THAT PLAYER FOR US NEXT SEASON AND NO DOUBT WILL BE A SOLID NBA CONTRIBUTOR IN FEW YEARS. THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE TRANSFORMATIVE SEASON SACAR IS ABOUT TO HAVE ONLY BENEFIT HIM PERSONALLY OR THE ENTIRE TEAM. THA'S THE $1M QUESTION.
Just maybe he's starting to crack that Egg shell. He had 32 against Scion Dental on July 22 and he's averaging 7.7 rebounds in the 3 games he played.
Even though its water downed play, better to be doing good things than not doing anything. Stay Tuned.
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Not sure what you're confused about.
If we're considering DeRozan a star, and a lot of people do, then Wes can't be far off. Wes is a better player. Better Efg%, better defender, similar rebounding and assist rates.
What? I love Wes. But Wes is nowhere near DeMar DeRozan. Wes's best year was 16.4/3.5/2.4 while shooting 44% from the field and 39% from 3. Outside of DeRozan's rookie year, his worst season is 16.7/3.3/2.0 while shooting 42% from the field and 26% from 3. He's averaging 18.1/3.9/2.6 for his career and is 3 years younger than Wes.
Wes's highest defensive win shares season is 2.2 while DeRozan has had seasons of 3.0 and 2.4 (and they come in 2 of the past 3 years). Offensively Wes's best season is 6.3 while DeRozan's is 7.0.
DeRozan was 24, 5, and 4 this year. That is a star. And sorry, but Wes will never come close to those kinds of numbers.
There's not even a comparison here.
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JFB is a "star".
Wes is a solid NBA starter. He would start on almost every NBA team pre-injury, and if he comes back strong, will continue to have that status.
Jae is a serviceable NBA starter. He would not start on every team, but would get serious minutes on any team.
as compared to...
Wade - Superstar
Novak - career journeyman / role player
Diener - Serviceable NBA reserve
Tony Smith - Serviceable NBA reserve
Buycks - fringe NBA'er
Lazar/Blue - cup of tea guys
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What? I love Wes. But Wes is nowhere near DeMar DeRozan. Wes's best year was 16.4/3.5/2.4 while shooting 44% from the field and 39% from 3. Outside of DeRozan's rookie year, his worst season is 16.7/3.3/2.0 while shooting 42% from the field and 26% from 3. He's averaging 18.1/3.9/2.6 for his career and is 3 years younger than Wes.
Wes's highest defensive win shares season is 2.2 while DeRozan has had seasons of 3.0 and 2.4 (and they come in 2 of the past 3 years). Offensively Wes's best season is 6.3 while DeRozan's is 7.0.
DeRozan was 24, 5, and 4 this year. That is a star. And sorry, but Wes will never come close to those kinds of numbers.
There's not even a comparison here.
On my phone so I'll answer the rest of this later, but the only reason DeRozans scoring numbers are higher is because he takes 7 more shots per game. Lower Fg% ,3P%, FT% for DeMar every year. And barely higher in MPG. His usage being higher doesn't make him a better play.
Win shares I don't know a ton about so I can't respond to it.
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On my phone so I'll answer the rest of this later, but the only reason DeRozans scoring numbers are higher is because he takes 7 more shots per game. Lower Fg% ,3P%, FT% for DeMar every year. And barely higher in MPG. His usage being higher doesn't make him a better play.
Win shares I don't know a ton about so I can't respond to it.
DeRozan gets more of his team's shots because he is one of his team's stars, no?
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On my phone so I'll answer the rest of this later, but the only reason DeRozans scoring numbers are higher is because he takes 7 more shots per game. Lower Fg% ,3P%, FT% for DeMar every year. And barely higher in MPG. His usage being higher doesn't make him a better play.
Win shares I don't know a ton about so I can't respond to it.
I get what you are trying to say but you can't just throw usage out the window. Derozan gets more shots because he is a better player. I mean, Sacar Anim isn't a better player than Henry Ellenson even though he shot a better FG% and 3P%. Extreme example, I know but many people would put comparing Wes to DeMar in the same category. Love Wes but DeMar Derozan eats his lunch.
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I get what you are trying to say but you can't just throw usage out the window. Derozan gets more shots because he is a better player. I mean, Sacar Anim isn't a better player than Henry Ellenson even though he shot a better FG% and 3P%. Extreme example, I know but many people would put comparing Wes to DeMar in the same category. Love Wes but DeMar Derozan eats his lunch.
Well, I don't necessarily agree. But I also recognize that it looks like I"m the solo minority on this topic so I will concede defeat.
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Well, I don't necessarily agree. But I also recognize that it looks like I"m the solo minority on this topic so I will concede defeat.
I prefer Wes. He played for Marquette and the other guy didn't . The other guy just takes a lot of shots.