MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: auburnmarquette on July 20, 2016, 12:39:14 AM
-
The Big 12 just announced they will expand up to 14 teams as fast as they can. Reportedly Cincinnati is their top priority, and Memphis and Houston are being considered. If the Big 12 expansion raids the AAC to free UConn, would you...
-
NVM
-
My guess is they go with Cincinnati and BYU now. Then decide if they want to go to 14 or not.
If they go to 14, don't rule out Colorado State. Most logical would be to add Colorado State and Memphis as the other 2 to get to 14.
-
Would UConn still hold on to FBS football, or would they finally throw in the towel and downgrade?
Would the Big East take them if they don't downgrade football?
If they end up in the Big East, does the Big East have to take a second team ? Right away?
UConn would be one heck of an addition in a number of sports.
I voted UConn and someone else.
-
West Virginia is in the Big 12. The closest geographical school to them in Iowa State (860 miles). This has put a huge burden on non-revenue sports and they have suffered (does WVU get a single fan for an away soccer or baseball game?)
I have to think the Big 12 would want to expand east to give relief to WVU and increase their hold on that section of the country. So Cincy and Uconn make most sense.
If they take BYU and Colorado State, the cost to travel to WVU just gets all the worse.
-
Hearing football only could be an option. If so, and UConn got a football only bid, would it be worth letting them park their other sports here? Add only them, go to a 20-game round robin, and if they leave, who cares, we go back to a happy 10.
-
According to CBSsports, the Big 12 is n't going to give new members full shares for a while after they join the league. In UConn's case that could make upgrading their football program which needs an upgraded stadium among other things problematic.
-
Basketball-only schools, please.
-
According to CBSsports, the Big 12 is n't going to give new members full shares for a while after they join the league. In UConn's case that could make upgrading their football program which needs an upgraded stadium among other things problematic.
UConn has a new football stadium and it was built with further expansion possible.
FWIW, from what I have read in multiple places it sounds like BYU would be the first option, then UConn, then Cincinnati, then a group of others like CSU, UCF, USF & Memphis.
-
Uconn should be an absolute priority if it did happen
-
If UConn wants back in the Big East for basketball, take them back in a second. The rest of the details can be sorted out after that. Dayton, VCU or Wichita State can stay where they are. If the Big East is going to expand, they need to bring in top tier programs, not "promote" mid-majors to high major status.
-
I voted stay at 10, but I can be convinced to one of the other options if UConn drops football.
Same also goes for Vanderbilt or Wake Forest, FWIW.
-
I can't believe we are having to have this discussion again. Two simple rules to running the Big East
1. Do not take a school that has an active football program or aspirations for one. It only brings instability to the conference long term.
2. Do not dilute the revenue stream for the current 10 teams short term unless there is a significant long term up-tick.
UConn fails both of those rules. I get the basketball argument for UConn and I totally agree with it. However, bringing in UConn and another team does nothing to increase the value of the TV contract we currently have with FS1 which means the current schools take a pay cut to bring in those two teams. UConn doesn't bring a new or big enough market for FS1 to increase the payout.
The only only only scenario I see where UConn joins the Big East and parks their football somewhere else is if Notre Dame is involved as the 2nd team. The revenue generated from a Big East + UConn + ND tv contract would be enormous and worth it. As my favorite zoomie poster here would say "anything else is just mental masturbation".
-
I can't believe we are having to have this discussion again. Two simple rules to running the Big East
1. Do not take a school that has an active football program or aspirations for one. It only brings instability to the conference long term.
2. Do not dilute the revenue stream for the current 10 teams short term unless there is a significant long term up-tick.
UConn fails both of those rules. I get the basketball argument for UConn and I totally agree with it. However, bringing in UConn and another team does nothing to increase the value of the TV contract we currently have with FS1 which means the current schools take a pay cut to bring in those two teams. UConn doesn't bring a new or big enough market for FS1 to increase the payout.
The only only only scenario I see where UConn joins the Big East and parks their football somewhere else is if Notre Dame is involved as the 2nd team. The revenue generated from a Big East + UConn + ND tv contract would be enormous and worth it. As my favorite zoomie poster here would say "anything else is just mental masturbation".
I may be wrong, but I believe the BE contract with Fox will tack on matching money for added schools. The total value goes up, but the money per school does not change.
Your point about adding value is still valid here, obviously.
-
I may be wrong, but I believe the BE contract with Fox will tack on matching money for added schools. The total value goes up, but the money per school does not change.
Your point about adding value is still valid here, obviously.
My understanding of the contract is that there is an option to negotiate adders if the conference expands but it is not a guarantee. As an example, I believe the could negotiate additional money for the new schools but not have it as high as the original schools or they could try and get Fox to pay everyone in full...but nothing is certain.
-
However, bringing in UConn and another team does nothing to increase the value of the TV contract we currently have with FS1 which means the current schools take a pay cut to bring in those two teams. UConn doesn't bring a new or big enough market for FS1 to increase the payout.
UCONN is a more attractive program nationally than the bottom half of our conference - therefore it does increase the long-term attractiveness and positioning of the BE.
If Fox doesnt increase the short-term payout when adding UCONN it speaks more to the current state of what the BE product is attracting, current state of what Fox is willing to pay (maybe they over-paid) or current market value of college Bball.
Pretending the BBall only complexity is not there and UCONN is committed to the BE and not joining a power 4/5 - if UCONN is available, the BEast should take them and it makes the conference a stronger product for the next contract. My guess is if the BE said 'no thanks' - Fox would push very hard for them to make it work.
-
I voted stay at 10, but I can be convinced to one of the other options if UConn drops football.
Same also goes for Vanderbilt or Wake Forest, FWIW.
Why would Vanderbilt a) drop football or b) leave the SEC? Are you just being theoretical?
-
The no football rule is made up by fans. The BEast would have no problem taking a football school in the right circumstance.
If any school would make fox chip in the extra money it's UConn. Wouldn't necessarily have to bring in a partner school. Not sure what option for a partner school they would go with and what ones fox would approve.
The BEast will expand before its next contract, it is inevitable. UConn would be the best possible option.
I would be SHOCKED if UConn gets picked up by the B12. I would put BYU, Colorado State, Cincinnati, Memphis, Houston, UCF, USF, and Temple all as more desirable to the B12 then UConn. And it's not just a geography thing. Have heard that is the ACC expanded that UConn is not on their short list either. Basketball is their money maker, hopefully they can accept that sooner rather than later.
-
Why would Vanderbilt a) drop football or b) leave the SEC? Are you just being theoretical?
Completely theoretical.
But Vandy's been to four bowl games since 1983, and three of them were under James Franklin, who is not there any more.
If there was an SEC school that would think about dumping it and leaving, it'd be Vandy.
-
I voted stay at 10, but I can be convinced to one of the other options if UConn drops football.
Why would an FBS program drop football? They just went to a bowl game this past season.
-
Didnt they go to a bowl game but lose money in the process?
-
Didnt they go to a bowl game but lose money in the process?
Most teams lose money when they go to bowl games.
-
So then why is going to a bowl game a reason to not drop football?
-
So then why is going to a bowl game a reason to not drop football?
It's not.
Revenue generated by football is a reason not to drop football.
-
So then why is going to a bowl game a reason to not drop football?
Overall FBS schools make money on football. Losing money to go to a bowl game is really no big deal. It counters that by being on national TV for recruiting, etc. Dropping football means giving up revenue streams. It means giving up road-game contracts, and it means losing access to College Football Playoff and conference revenue sharing. And that's to say nothing of the impact on alumni giving or sponsorship.
For Group of Five programs, those checks aren't very big, but neither are the football expenses. When you look at football in the context of the entire athletic department, cutting off revenue will rarely make financial sense.
Schools really don't drop football. Schools are adding football. Charlotte, ODU, Georgia State, UAB.
Idaho is not dropping football, but moving down to the FCS level. Has not happened since the 80's.
-
So then why is going to a bowl game a reason to not drop football?
I was making the point that Vanderbilt (much like UConn) is lousy at football and was using the success needed to make a bowl game as shorthand for that explanation.
I also don't think Vanderbilt is ever turning down those SEC paychecks.
-
If there are schools with a tough choice about football in today's landscape - UCONN will be on the list. Their hypothesis is they get invited to a big 4/5 conference and receive the revenues that come with it.
If that doesnt happen or it looks like it takes too long, here is what they are faced with:
- wildly popular bball programs
- not so popular football program in a region with not-so much support for college football in general
- Conference geared to their football program that does not provide satisfying rivals or $$$'s
- Athletic department operating in a deficit
- State with budget problems that do not seem to be alleviating any time soon
They took a big gamble in the early 2000's when they poured money into football. It was strategically sound, but it looks like it was not enough or was too late to win the big conference consolidation sweepstakes.
I am sure my fellow nutmeggers can confirm, refute or add to the above.
-
The football problem in the Old Bog East was it started catering to football and it got football top heavy. The problem was the football focus of Pitt, Cuse, Rutgers, West Va and Louisville.
Notre Dame was never a problem.
If we have 10 Hoops schools + UConn the basketball schools still hold all the power. Plus UConn-Georgetown is better than any game we field right now. I think UConn is a better name than all current BE schools.
-
From Andy Katz: "If UConn found a home for football, the Big East would seriously consider the Huskies for all other sports, according to a source with knowledge. The Big East would be a natural fit. So far the 10-team Big East only has all sports members, but doesn't offer Division I (FBS) football. UConn is in all sports in the AAC. If given the choice, the Huskies would want to be in the Big 12 in all sports. But the chances that offer ever comes is still too hard to predict now."
-
I've gone back and forth on this, and I've now gone back ...
I'd take UConn in a nanosecond. They would make the Big East a better basketball conference, period, and who here cares about anything else but that?
If they get seduced by some other conference and leave in 3 years, we'll deal with it and survive, but I'm guessing they'd settle real nice in our Big East. It wasn't as if they ever wanted to leave.
And it wouldn't matter to me if we added a 12th team. I'd rather not add a 12th team just to have one. It would have to be somebody in UConn's range of proven excellence at basketball and dedication to basketball. Maybe VCU, but maybe not. Maybe Dayton, but probably not.
-
Big Ten had 11 schools for about 20 years.
-
West Virginia is in the Big 12. The closest geographical school to them in Iowa State (860 miles). This has put a huge burden on non-revenue sports and they have suffered (does WVU get a single fan for an away soccer or baseball game?)
I have to think the Big 12 would want to expand east to give relief to WVU and increase their hold on that section of the country. So Cincy and Uconn make most sense.
If they take BYU and Colorado State, the cost to travel to WVU just gets all the worse.
UConn would be a problem for the exact reason why you said WVU would want them. They are still over 500 miles away from WVU, so not that much help, and it would be even more brutal than WVU for non revenue sports.
-
Get rid of football or enjoy being in the AAC.
-
The Big East can and will be valuable because it brings stability and a known product. No doubt UConn brings a good basketball product (year 3 of Ollie now?) but is certainly trading off it's Calhoun reputation but it brings instability in the form of football, the revenue of which will always drive decisions over basketball ones. Having a voting member of a conference having football based driven decision making is not a good long term plan.
If the conference wants to bring UConn in, so be it I'll be happy from a basketball product standpoint, but I don't think it's a great idea long term. We'll see if it happens, UConn would have to find a place to stash their football program and I'm not sure what conferences are looking for that either.
-
Why do we care so much about "stability?" Conferences have never really been stable. If UConn joins the B12 football only, and then joins the BE for other sports, that would be a great move. So what if they leave in a decade when the B12 decides to take them in all sports. That would be a nice decade.
-
Why would an FBS program drop football?
In order of probability (most to least likely):
1. Lawsuits (the concussion & CTE type, not the Sandusky & assault variety)
2. Dilution of talent (fewer kids playing football, lesser quality/quantity of competition on the field)
3. Revenue shortfalls / rising expenses in athletic programs
4. Reduced state funding to colleges
5. Declining enrollment / fee revenue
6. Title IX
7. Resurgence of NFL-Europe or another minor league football system
Not saying that this is the case today, but these are the reasons that would be cited over the next decade or two if FBS schools start dropping football.
-
If anyone here reads the Boneyard (a UConn fan forum), an overwhelming majority of their posters have absolutely zero desire to be a part of the Big East in any fashion. They believe, however right or wrong, that a power conference invite (as a full-member) will come one day. That could come in the coming months with the Big 12, or in a decade with the B1G or ACC. They view the current Big East as "mid-major" (not unlike the current incarnation of the American) and have no desire to make a lateral move out of desperation.
Their new AD is a football guy (comes from Auburn). They have pumped hundreds of millions of dollars into football in the past 16 years. If UConn had it's way, they would absolutely sacrifice the legacy of its basketball program created by Geno and Calhoun in order to be in a seat at the big-boy football table.
Bottom line, would we (as Marquette fans and the Big East) really want an institution that doesn't want to be here? In the Old Big East, we had a plethora of schools that didn't want to be here (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UConn, Rutgers, West Virginia, etc.) and actively tried to leave and join other conferences. Look where that ended up.
A major part of the current Big East's strength is unity and cohesion. We, as 10 separate institutions, are all in this together. We want to succeed as programs and as a conference as one. We were cast aside by football schools in hopes of being devalued and dropped down in status. Why would we want to risk all that we have built in three years for any program that doesn't want to be a part of that?
-
Why would an FBS program drop football? They just went to a bowl game this past season.
That's the point. Football will drive everything. So if their football program is around then enjoy being in the AAC. Football is why our conference broke up once. Learn from the past.
-
Why do we care so much about "stability?"
To me it is just a code word for not wanting other people being able to relegate our program to the A10 or a new version of CUSA - which was where we were headed a few years ago.
I think "control" is better word to describe what we want now that the BE is in its current format. As long as you can somewhat control terms of membership - stability is less important.
-
To me it is just a code word for not wanting other people being able to relegate our program to the A10 or a new version of CUSA - which was where we were headed a few years ago.
I think "control" is better word to describe what we want now that the BE is in its current format. As long as you can somewhat control terms of membership - stability is less important.
Exactly. There is a core of ten teams that are committed as basketball-first members. If you can add members, even on a short-term gig, that can bring more $$ and visibility the to the conference, then go for it. Just don't add a half-dozen of them and everything will be fine.
Let's face it, BE membership WILL change. Schools will be added. Schools may leave. It will not be permanent. It never is.
-
To me it is just a code word for not wanting other people being able to relegate our program to the A10 or a new version of CUSA - which was where we were headed a few years ago.
I think "control" is better word to describe what we want now that the BE is in its current format. As long as you can somewhat control terms of membership - stability is less important.
I think that's a fair description. If the current Big East can control the engagements and increase value by adding teams, ok I can get on board. What I don't want is the Big East to become a pit stop for teams waiting for a better offer....that's how you can get a mid-major reputation quick (deserved or not).
One thing that would be interesting with adding UConn is that E$PN would be forced to pay more attention to the league because of the regional demand in CT. They get influenced by UConn(immersion) and Syracuse(lots of Cuse grads at WWL) more than other programs.
-
Obviously we take UCONN if we can land them for basketball, if they park football in the Big12. No brainer.
But I have a hard time understanding why the Big12 wouldn't want them for all sports.
There are 10 full members in the Big 12. They want to get to 14. There aren't that many quality programs left that aren't already members of a Power 5 conference. Why wouldn't they take UCONN?
-
I don't want to have any football schools added if they are joining us for all sports but football and parking their football team in a lower league. I wouldn't want a UConn, Cincy, or Memphis if they put football in the MAC or CUSA while they kept looking for better options.
However, if we brought in a UConn that was parked in a big conference like the B12, I could live with that. First, unless they are looking to move all in to the B12, they won't be looking elsewhere. They'll be part of a major football revenue stream and the best basketball specific revenue stream in the business. Second, if you only take that one team, you could go to an 11-team league with a 20-game round robin. It would shorten non-con play, but who cares? Adding UConn to everyone's schedule twice would be better than any two games you would reasonably expect to pick up in non-con play anyway. Third, if you stay at 11 and they do leave or get full B12 membership, who cares? You go back to an 18-game schedule and we're right back at the stable position we're in now.
Adding a team that was parking football in a P5 is pretty much the only way this makes sense to me, and UConn is one of the rare programs this might be worth doing this for. Them, Notre Dame, or a true blue blood are the only schools I could see adding with their football parked in a marquee league.
-
If UConn wants back in the Big East for basketball, take them back in a second. The rest of the details can be sorted out after that. Dayton, VCU or Wichita State can stay where they are. If the Big East is going to expand, they need to bring in top tier programs, not "promote" mid-majors to high major status.
UConn doesn't want back in the Big East for basketball. They want to be a power conference football school. Their model is UNC or Wisconsin, not Villanova.
That's the biggest reason the C7 left — over disagreements with the football schools. UConn may have won multiple national titles in basketball, and others may see UConn as a basketball school. But that's not how UConn sees itself. If they're about to throw in the towel on football, there's absolutely zero sign of it.
UConn doesn't belong in the Big East. No way, no how.
-
If UConn wants back in the Big East for basketball, take them back in a second. The rest of the details can be sorted out after that. Dayton, VCU or Wichita State can stay where they are. If the Big East is going to expand, they need to bring in top tier programs, not "promote" mid-majors to high major status.
That's a good point - I should have listed adding only UConn as an option to make it an 11 team conference. I was assuming it would be 10 or 12, but no reason we couldn't do the 20-team conference schedule.
-
That's the point. Football will drive everything. So if their football program is around then enjoy being in the AAC. Football is why our conference broke up once. Learn from the past.
No kidding! I'm not asking it.
-
No kidding! My post you link was answering a question from another post. I'm not asking it. Read the post from the past before you take shots. >:(
I did read the post. He said that if UCONN drops football you take them. He's right. You take UCONN...if they drop football.
-
Obviously we take UCONN if we can land them for basketball, if they park football in the Big12. No brainer.
But I have a hard time understanding why the Big12 wouldn't want them for all sports.
There are 10 full members in the Big 12. They want to get to 14. There aren't that many quality programs left that aren't already members of a Power 5 conference. Why wouldn't they take UCONN?
The all sport problem is that UConn would have the same logistical nightmares that WVU has, just with an additional 500+ miles of travel. Football and Men's Basketball, not that bad with chartered flights, but non rev sports it would kill.
-
Unfortunately for UConn I think their ship has sailed as long as they play FBS football and the ACC has no interest. Unfortunately being that far east and north limits your options.
-
I did read the post. He said that if UCONN drops football you take them. He's right. You take UCONN...if they drop football.
I agree with that, but UConn is not dropping football. I would take UConn if they go independent.
-
Unfortunately for UConn I think their ship has sailed as long as they play FBS football and the ACC has no interest. Unfortunately being that far east and north limits your options.
Plus, being in Hartford.
-
Poll should have an option to add UConn only and stay at 11 teams. UConn becoming available doesn't mean we should lower our standards for the other options.
-
Big Ten was at 11 schools for about 20 years, why not the Big East.
-
Big Ten was at 11 schools for about 20 years, why not the Big East.
Because basketball drives the Big East while football drives/drove the B1G. You can't play a double round robin schedule with 11 teams. You can with 10.
-
Because basketball drives the Big East while football drives/drove the B1G. You can't play a double round robin schedule with 11 teams. You can with 10.
Why not? The Sun Belt does it. No reason you can't have a 20-game conference season. It would reduce the number of non-con games by two, but two games with UConn for the entire league would be more valuable than any non-con games that could be scheduled.
-
Why not? The Sun Belt does it. No reason you can't have a 20-game conference season. It would reduce the number of non-con games by two, but two games with UConn for the entire league would be more valuable than any non-con games that could be scheduled.
Not necessarily. There's a reason major conferences don't play 20 game conference seasons.
-
UConn is not dropping football. I would take UConn if they go independent.
I definitely agree with this.
I'd take UConn tomorrow if it would go independent for football and if it signed a commitment containing $eriou$ penaltie$ for pulling the rest of its sports out of the Big East. I'd probably consider the same about BYU, although geographically that isn't as attractive.
-
I voted stay at 10, but I can be convinced to one of the other options if UConn drops football.
Same also goes for Vanderbilt or Wake Forest, FWIW.
+1 on UConn.
The odds of Vandy or Wake dropping football are about as good as the odds of MU adding D1 football (i.e., not gonna happen).
-
Because basketball drives the Big East while football drives/drove the B1G. You can't play a double round robin schedule with 11 teams. You can with 10.
Who said we need to do a double round robin. Stay at 18 conference games with 11 schools.
-
Big Ten was at 11 schools for about 20 years, why not the Big East.
Because the "11" doesn't fit as easily into the negative space of the Big East logo...
;)
-
Because the "11" doesn't fit as easily into the negative space of the Big East logo...
;)
;D ;D I was waiting for that.
-
It's not.
Revenue generated by football is a reason not to drop football.
NVM
-
In order of probability (most to least likely):
1. Lawsuits (the concussion & CTE type, not the Sandusky & assault variety)
2. Dilution of talent (fewer kids playing football, lesser quality/quantity of competition on the field)
3. Revenue shortfalls / rising expenses in athletic programs
4. Reduced state funding to colleges
5. Declining enrollment / fee revenue
6. Title IX
7. Resurgence of NFL-Europe or another minor league football system
Not saying that this is the case today, but these are the reasons that would be cited over the next decade or two if FBS schools start dropping football.
This says it all.
-
Not necessarily. There's a reason major conferences don't play 20 game conference seasons.
And the reason is this:
RPI
Once conference play starts, RPI is essentially a zero-sum game within the conference... OWP and OOWP cancels out because everyone is playing everyone else. So when everyone is essentially beating up on each other, RPI has a tendency to smooth out. So if you want to have a conference with multiple bids, your conference members need to enter conference play with higher non-con RPIs, and the way you do that is by playing (and winning against) non-conference opponents.
In other words, imagine that "potential RPI" is measured in marbles... at the beginning of the season, every team starts with the same number of marbles and every time you win, you take a certain number of marbles away from your opponent based on the quality of said win. Once conference play begins, no more marbles are being added to the conference... all that's happening is that they start shifting around.
So if you want to maximize your conference's potential on the whole, you have to maximize the number of marbles won during non-con play... and more non-con games typically means more marbles for the high-major teams.
-
If anyone here reads the Boneyard (a UConn fan forum), an overwhelming majority of their posters have absolutely zero desire to be a part of the Big East in any fashion. They believe, however right or wrong, that a power conference invite (as a full-member) will come one day. That could come in the coming months with the Big 12, or in a decade with the B1G or ACC. They view the current Big East as "mid-major" (not unlike the current incarnation of the American) and have no desire to make a lateral move out of desperation.
Just for that, I hope they rot in the AAC now. Their fans are so delusional if they think they deserve/expect a power 5 bid. Their football team would get trashed in the Big 12 and would never be able to recruit.
-
And the reason is this:
RPI
Once conference play starts, RPI is essentially a zero-sum game within the conference... OWP and OOWP cancels out because everyone is playing everyone else. So when everyone is essentially beating up on each other, RPI has a tendency to smooth out. So if you want to have a conference with multiple bids, your conference members need to enter conference play with higher non-con RPIs, and the way you do that is by playing (and winning against) non-conference opponents.
In other words, imagine that "potential RPI" is measured in marbles... at the beginning of the season, every team starts with the same number of marbles and every time you win, you take a certain number of marbles away from your opponent based on the quality of said win. Once conference play begins, no more marbles are being added to the conference... all that's happening is that they start shifting around.
So if you want to maximize your conference's potential on the whole, you have to maximize the number of marbles won during non-con play... and more non-con games typically means more marbles for the high-major teams.
Yup.
-
Who said we need to do a double round robin. Stay at 18 conference games with 11 schools.
I would just prefer not to give up a steady format for the chance to add one school that will leave at the first opportunity it gets to and be back to square one.
-
Just for that, I hope they rot in the AAC now. Their fans are so delusional if they think they deserve/expect a power 5 bid. Their football team would get trashed in the Big 12 and would never be able to recruit.
I scan the Boneyard occasionally too. I think GoldenWarrior11 may have partially misread. The Boneyard consensus to me seems to be that it would be very super dumb to make their football independent or stick it someplace like the MAC and then join the Big East for everything else. Better to stay where they are. But if they get a P5 invite for football only then they would be on board.
The consensus is they want their Tier 3 TV rights back because they get more $ then they get sharing with the AAC.
Don't forget that UConn is in the NYC & the Hartford/New Haven TV markets, which no other on t BigXII expansion list can beat.
-
We would be signing up another ND and ND did not bring down the Big East. What brought down the Big East was recruiting Miami, West Va and Va Tech; becoming a Football Conf; trying to appease the Big East football schools.
Recruiting those three really tipped the scales:
NON FOOTBALL
Gtown
Nova
Seton Hall
Providence
St John's
FOOTBALL
Cuse
Pitt
BC
UConn
Rutgers
It made those Bottom 5 the Powerful 8 and completely derailed the mission of the conference. Adding UConn would not do that because UConn would have their Football house secure. The only fear would be if they left for full membership in the ACC / Big Ten. Or if half our conference launched football.
-
Someone posted this link on the Boneyard.
"The Big 12 laid out its checklist for new members, so here's how the candidates stack up."
Ranking 8 candidates for Big 12 expansion by the conference's stated criteria
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/20/12232064/big-12-conference-realignment-candidates-byu-cincinnati-uconn-houston-ucf
-
I would just prefer not to give up a steady format for the chance to add one school that will leave at the first opportunity it gets to and be back to square one.
You wouldn't be going back to square one.
-
And the reason is this:
RPI
Once conference play starts, RPI is essentially a zero-sum game within the conference... OWP and OOWP cancels out because everyone is playing everyone else. So when everyone is essentially beating up on each other, RPI has a tendency to smooth out. So if you want to have a conference with multiple bids, your conference members need to enter conference play with higher non-con RPIs, and the way you do that is by playing (and winning against) non-conference opponents.
In other words, imagine that "potential RPI" is measured in marbles... at the beginning of the season, every team starts with the same number of marbles and every time you win, you take a certain number of marbles away from your opponent based on the quality of said win. Once conference play begins, no more marbles are being added to the conference... all that's happening is that they start shifting around.
So if you want to maximize your conference's potential on the whole, you have to maximize the number of marbles won during non-con play... and more non-con games typically means more marbles for the high-major teams.
I am not very good at math, so forgive me if I am clueless. Since RPI also factors in the D1 winning percentage of the opponents of your opponents, wouldn't it be better for the conference to have every team get a UConn level opponent twice in that category instead of two low majors?
-
And the reason is this:
RPI
Perfectly fine reason, but with all the RPI criticism and the recent announcements that the NCAA is looking into a replacement, I think that will be less of an issue. I don't think leagues are holding off on a 20-game schedule because of RPI. I think 18 is just sort of the accepted number right now. Everyone has gone to an 18 despite it not being necessary for many leagues.
Right now, the motivating force would be quality content. Adding UConn would give a legitimate, national title contending quality opponent twice a year and viable content to drive negotiations. There aren't many schools in the country we would look at that do that. I think it'd be a mistake to dismiss a school like that outright, even if they have football. Again, only because the football would be in a higher league. If it's in the AAC, CUSA, or MAC, it's a non-starter.
-
Why do we care so much about "stability?" Conferences have never really been stable. If UConn joins the B12 football only, and then joins the BE for other sports, that would be a great move. So what if they leave in a decade when the B12 decides to take them in all sports. That would be a nice decade.
EXACTLY!
You don't turn down Kate Upton just because you know she might leave you in a year. You say yes and have yourself an amazing year.
-
I am not very good at math, so forgive me if I am clueless. Since RPI also factors in the D1 winning percentage of the opponents of your opponents, wouldn't it be better for the conference to have every team get a UConn level opponent twice in that category instead of two low majors?
Playing UConn would almost certainly be better than two low majors. The odds are those low majors would have a sub-.500 record while UConn is likely to have a winning record, and the opponent's opponents factor would certainly favor UConn.
However, you also have to consider who would come off the schedule if UConn was added. Looking at our schedule, would it be Houston Baptist and SIUE, or would it be Georgia and Vandy? A mix of both? I'd guess most Big East teams, if UConn were added, would look to fill their 11 games with 4 in an exempt tourney, 2 high-major games, and 5 buy games. Now those second two categories would fluctuate, so sometimes it'd be 1 high-major, sometimes 3, maybe even 4 (and correspondingly 5, 4, or 3) but it would certainly change the ratio.
-
So then why is going to a bowl game a reason to not drop football?
Alumni interest and contributions.
-
Let UConn dream big about football while playing the likes of USF, East Carolina, Tulane, Tulsa, UCF and the other C-USA castoffs. Once Cincinnati bolts, they will be left alone on an island in the American. This is the last train out of the G5 for another 10 years (possibly more if the P5 have their way).
Once all interest has been killed with their football program long-term (which would only be a matter of time playing zero regional rivals and very little big-time programs), only then should the Big East offer support and a life raft. We shouldn't be their "safety net". We should want to be their top choice. The only way that happens is without football. We shouldn't settle for being sloppy seconds - we are better than that.
-
I scan the Boneyard occasionally too. I think GoldenWarrior11 may have partially misread. The Boneyard consensus to me seems to be that it would be very super dumb to make their football independent or stick it someplace like the MAC and then join the Big East for everything else. Better to stay where they are. But if they get a P5 invite for football only then they would be on board.
The consensus is they want their Tier 3 TV rights back because they get more $ then they get sharing with the AAC.
Don't forget that UConn is in the NYC & the Hartford/New Haven TV markets, which no other on t BigXII expansion list can beat.
MUFinCT, I'm curious. How many UConn fans actually care about their football team? I know the administration cares because it makes them money. I know fans care in a sense because they know it would be good for their school if football were to find its way into a power conference. But how many are actually passionate UConn football fans? How well attended are games? Do people discuss recruiting over coffee or on chat boards? Do fans get into senseless arguments about how the backup QB John is so much better the Derrick the current starting QB? Are there UConn freshmen going to their orientation saying "I can't wait for my first UConn football game"?
My outsider perspective (and the few UConn alums I know) tell me that nobody cares. They want to see them do well but really its just something to do until basketball season starts. And when I look at charts like the one in the link you provided (http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/20/12232064/big-12-conference-realignment-candidates-byu-cincinnati-uconn-houston-ucf) and see that UConn is 1st in social media interest of athletics but LAST in social media interest of football (not only last, but 2nd to last has almost triple the score of UCONN), it seems to confirm that perception.
I'm honestly curious. And if its true, I'm also curious why you invest so much time, energy, and money into something that your fan base doesn't actually like that much.
-
This is how much UConn cares about football. I see a B1G/Big 12/ACC invite real soon...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw3PFrjIQAAbhmb.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba5stakCIAA15Kt.jpg)
-
EXACTLY!
You don't turn down Kate Upton just because you know she might leave you in a year. You say yes and have yourself an amazing year.
Describing UConn as Kate Upton is like describing me as Brad Pitt....if you squint real hard and enjoy a few of Milwaukee's Best before hand you can kind of get there.
There is a scenario where UConn to the Big East makes sense...but you make them come to us, not the other way around.
-
EXACTLY!
You don't turn down Kate Upton just because you know she might leave you in a year. You say yes and have yourself an amazing year.
That's exactly how I played it with Kate. I hope she has as many fond memories as I do.
Oh wait ... Upton? I thought you said Smith!
God bless America, baby!!!
-
Someone posted this link on the Boneyard.
"The Big 12 laid out its checklist for new members, so here's how the candidates stack up."
Ranking 8 candidates for Big 12 expansion by the conference's stated criteria
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/20/12232064/big-12-conference-realignment-candidates-byu-cincinnati-uconn-houston-ucf
I liked the Facebook interest. UConn was dead last in football but was first by a mile in hoops.
-
Describing UConn as Kate Upton is like describing me as Brad Pitt....if you squint real hard and enjoy a few of Milwaukee's Best before hand you can kind of get there.
There is a scenario where UConn to the Big East makes sense...but you make them come to us, not the other way around.
They are a basketball blue blood. Besides Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Indiana, and Louisville I can't think of any other programs deserving to be called Kate Upton.
And UConn is the only Kate Upton that is single. All those other Uptons are married.
-
They are a basketball blue blood. Besides Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Indiana, and Louisville I can't think of any other programs deserving to be called Kate Upton.
And UConn is the only Kate Upton that is single. All those other Uptons are married.
And have the best program in Woman's bball history.
-
There is a scenario where UConn to the Big East makes sense...but you make them come to us, not the other way around.
As long as you don't make a bad deal, it doesn't matter who approached who first.
-
As long as you don't make a bad deal, it doesn't matter who approached who first.
Didn't mean it literally.....meant it as a metaphor of they need us more than we need them
-
Didn't mean it literally.....meant it as a metaphor of they need us more than we need them
That sounds like a recipe for discontent. If all the improbable things that lead to this scenario line up, it is likely a win-win for both parties. No need to have them need us more than we need them -- they aren't Dayton.
-
MUFinCT, I'm curious. How many UConn fans actually care about their football team? I know the administration cares because it makes them money. I know fans care in a sense because they know it would be good for their school if football were to find its way into a power conference. But how many are actually passionate UConn football fans? How well attended are games? Do people discuss recruiting over coffee or on chat boards? Do fans get into senseless arguments about how the backup QB John is so much better the Derrick the current starting QB? Are there UConn freshmen going to their orientation saying "I can't wait for my first UConn football game"?
My outsider perspective (and the few UConn alums I know) tell me that nobody cares. They want to see them do well but really its just something to do until basketball season starts. And when I look at charts like the one in the link you provided (http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/20/12232064/big-12-conference-realignment-candidates-byu-cincinnati-uconn-houston-ucf) and see that UConn is 1st in social media interest of athletics but LAST in social media interest of football (not only last, but 2nd to last has almost triple the score of UCONN), it seems to confirm that perception.
I'm honestly curious. And if its true, I'm also curious why you invest so much time, energy, and money into something that your fan base doesn't actually like that much.
TAMU -
1) The locals care, but remember that UConn football is still relatively new to football. It's come a very very long way in a very short amount of time. They've been to in a BCS Bowl game.
2) Conference matters. Most of the AAC teams are just MEH. But they've had sell-outs when they have played non-conference games against Michigan & Baylor and former conference mate West Virginia. When RGIII was at Baylor, he said The Rent was the loudest visiting place he ever played at.
3) Wheter a pipe dream or not, the perception is out there that UConn can do for football what it has done in men's & women's basketball in the right conference because it is UConn.
-
This is how much UConn cares about football. I see a B1G/Big 12/ACC invite real soon...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw3PFrjIQAAbhmb.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ba5stakCIAA15Kt.jpg)
That's actually a lot of empty seats for a 40,600 seat stadium.
-
That's exactly how I played it with Kate. I hope she has as many fond memories as I do.
Oh wait ... Upton? I thought you said Smith!
God bless America, baby!!!
Let me guess, you made her sing, then suddenly it was all over.
-
Didn't mean it literally.....meant it as a metaphor of they need us more than we need them
It would be a mutually beneficial relationship.
-
This is how much UConn cares about football. I see a B1G/Big 12/ACC invite real soon...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw3PFrjIQAAbhmb.jpg)
They'll fit right in with Miami and Pitt.
(http://coachingsearch.com/images/stories/Miami%20crowd.jpeg)
(http://files.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2011-10-26/1027scstarkey-a.jpg)
-
I am not very good at math, so forgive me if I am clueless. Since RPI also factors in the D1 winning percentage of the opponents of your opponents, wouldn't it be better for the conference to have every team get a UConn level opponent twice in that category instead of two low majors?
In short, it's possible -- but this is more likely to serve the benefit of some teams within the conference more than it would serve the conference as a whole.
Again, if the end game for a conference is to get as many teams into the tourney as possible, you need to enter conference play with as many marbles as possible. Provided that you're adding a perennial beast in non-conference play, the number of marbles they bring to the conference may be greater than the number of marbles the existing members could earn from playing two other low major teams... but even if you end up with more marbles, now you're moving them around amongst 11 teams instead of 10.
Let's grossly oversimplify this... some wins may be worth 1 marble (like Villanova's win vs. E TN State) and some may be worth 10 marbles (e.g. PC's win vs. Arizona)... but let's say that a non-con win averaged out to 5 marbles per win in the Big East last year. The BE had 116 wins in non-conference last year, so 580 marbles. Now, let's say that UCONN, on the whole, plays a non-con schedule that's stronger than the BE's as a whole, or 7 marbles per win. They'll end up bringing 70 marbles to the Big East... but each of the 10 current teams forego 2 non-con wins (presumably) or 100 marbles because UCONN is now involved, so the conference loses.
But if the two games each BE team dropped were "3-marble" wins, then the Big East would win because it's only giving up 60 to get 70... or would it?
Consider if UCONN plays a 6-marble schedule? The Big East gave up 60 marbles to gain 60 marbles but now you have 11 teams fighting for those same 580 marbles instead of 10. In the foregoing example, you now 11 teams fighting for 590 marbles instead of 10 fighting for 580. In this case, you'd rather have slightly fewer marbles and one less team.
The long answer is that even if the Big East added UCONN, the conference schedule would remain at 18 games.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/wS2qxgU.gif)
-
One of the things that makes a conference great are high quality rivalries. I believe the best asset the Big East has right now is the double round robin schedule . Over times the double round robin truly enables those rivalries to develop as fans get to know the other teams players and coaches. The Big East has many quality players and several coaching personalities are beginning to emerge. The rivalries are further enhanced by the fact that all the Big East members are basketball focused , medium sized, catholic schools in urban areas. The Big East tournament is one of the better post season tournaments as a result. Marquette is in an excellent position as a member of the Big East as currently configured.
I would prefer to let the conference develop as it is and would not drop the very good thing we have going to bring in U Conn. I believe U Conn would be at best a push on the TV contract . U Conn would bring instability to what is a very stable , if not most stable, of conferences as their long stated intention is to be in a P5 football league. Our Big East conference is going to keep improving from top to bottom and MU will be a huge beneficiary of that growth. Their is value in a well defined high quality brand and that is what the Big East.
-
http://www.theuconnblog.com/2015/12/23/10320904/what-makes-a-great-coach-a-legendary-coach
-
http://www.theuconnblog.com/2015/12/23/10320904/what-makes-a-great-coach-a-legendary-coach
The only legendary coach that can be mentioned in these places is Stew Morrill.
-
One of the things that makes a conference great are high quality rivalries. I believe the best asset the Big East has right now is the double round robin schedule . Over times the double round robin truly enables those rivalries to develop as fans get to know the other teams players and coaches. The Big East has many quality players and several coaching personalities are beginning to emerge. The rivalries are further enhanced by the fact that all the Big East members are basketball focused , medium sized, catholic schools in urban areas. The Big East tournament is one of the better post season tournaments as a result. Marquette is in an excellent position as a member of the Big East as currently configured.
I would prefer to let the conference develop as it is and would not drop the very good thing we have going to bring in U Conn. I believe U Conn would be at best a push on the TV contract . U Conn would bring instability to what is a very stable , if not most stable, of conferences as their long stated intention is to be in a P5 football league. Our Big East conference is going to keep improving from top to bottom and MU will be a huge beneficiary of that growth. Their is value in a well defined high quality brand and that is what the Big East.
I guess I don't see how adding UCONN would suddenly make it an unstable conference. It's not like if UCONN leaves, it will start a mass exodus. If UCONN leaves, we go back on as normal. It's not like the constant fear of half the conference jumping ship and dissolving the current one. The only way things are unstable is if the P-5 conferences start poaching basketball only schools for some reason. Then that changes the Big East drastically whether UCONN is in or not.
-
I guess I don't see how adding UCONN would suddenly make it an unstable conference. It's not like if UCONN leaves, it will start a mass exodus. If UCONN leaves, we go back on as normal. It's not like the constant fear of half the conference jumping ship and dissolving the current one. The only way things are unstable is if the P-5 conferences start poaching basketball only schools for some reason. Then that changes the Big East drastically whether UCONN is in or not.
+1
Out biggest risk as a conference is that the p5 take Bball only members. The big conferences can end this deal we have setup if they want. If you are worried about stability - worry about that not UCONN.
-
I guess I don't see how adding UCONN would suddenly make it an unstable conference. It's not like if UCONN leaves, it will start a mass exodus. If UCONN leaves, we go back on as normal. It's not like the constant fear of half the conference jumping ship and dissolving the current one. The only way things are unstable is if the P-5 conferences start poaching basketball only schools for some reason. Then that changes the Big East drastically whether UCONN is in or not.
This is exactly right. Further, bringing in UConn gives you some excellent ready-made rivalries. Providence, Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Seton Hall, they all have history with UConn. Even we had some great games with them in the past. And if they leave, no harm no foul. Just make sure there's stringent penalties for leaving so we keep all the NCAA shares they earn and all the schools make a tidy profit.
-
The only legendary coach that can be mentioned in these places is Stew Morrill.
I agree with this analysis.
-
And have the best program in Woman's bball history.
I think there are a few Tennessee fans who might argue with you about that.
-
+1
Out biggest risk as a conference is that the p5 take Bball only members. The big conferences can end this deal we have setup if they want. If you are worried about stability - worry about that not UCONN.
True dat. What happens if the ACC says, "OK Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's, we'll take your basketball programs and give you twice the money you get from the Big East"?
Not sure if it's possible or not, but it sure would end our fun little league!
-
I think there are a few Tennessee fans who might argue with you about that.
There might be, but they'd be wrong
-
True dat. What happens if the ACC says, "OK Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's, we'll take your basketball programs and give you twice the money you get from the Big East"?
Not sure if it's possible or not, but it sure would end our fun little league!
If there's anything good about the breakup of the Big East, it's that it demonstrated the risk of building a conference with schools who have vastly different priorities. I'm not sure any conference is eager to repeat that experiment.
-
There is no comparison between football destroying the old Big East and adding UConn to the current BEast. The old Big East was dominated by football first institutions. Adding UConn would add exactly 1 football first institution. They couldn't break up the Big East. At worst they would leave themselves and leave the Big East exactly how it is now. Assuming UConn even has football at that point.
-
If there's anything good about the breakup of the Big East, it's that it demonstrated the risk of building a conference with schools who have vastly different priorities. I'm not sure any conference is eager to repeat that experiment.
It shows the dangers of building a conference where half the membership has one priority and the other half has a different priority. Not even the Big East as it is now has institutions with the exact same priorities.
-
True dat. What happens if the ACC says, "OK Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's, we'll take your basketball programs and give you twice the money you get from the Big East"?
Not sure if it's possible or not, but it sure would end our fun little league!
That scenario you describe would take money out of other ACC schools pockets. At the end of the day all of this is about money.
Our fun little league is here for the long term.
If U Conn came hat in hand and did a deal on our terms I am sure we would take them (for example they must stay in the length for 25 years minimum and huge exit fee to be paid in cash above and beyond units left behind)
U Conns open lust for the ACC was the final straw that broke the Big East as previously configured. They got what they deserved.
-
Why not? The Sun Belt does it. No reason you can't have a 20-game conference season. It would reduce the number of non-con games by two, but two games with UConn for the entire league would be more valuable than any non-con games that could be scheduled.
Agreed - I had admitted that in one of my comments that after reading some initial input that should have been one of the options I offered. Certainly an 11-team league works fine - as one other person pointed out the Big Ten did it for years.
I'm actually old enough to remember when they were going to 11 and the Milwaukee Journal invited people to submit possible names for the new 11-member conference. My two favorite were, "Ten Big Schools Pretty Close to Notre Dame," and "The Big Ten and Northwestern."
-
True dat. What happens if the ACC says, "OK Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's, we'll take your basketball programs and give you twice the money you get from the Big East"?
Not sure if it's possible or not, but it sure would end our fun little league!
Why would the ACC do this?
-
Poll: Big 12 coaches favor BYU, Houston in expansion
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/poll-big-12-coaches-favor-byu-houston-in-expansion-230910500.html?nhp=1
-
Poll: Big 12 coaches favor BYU, Houston in expansion
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/poll-big-12-coaches-favor-byu-houston-in-expansion-230910500.html?nhp=1
Houston doesn't make sense to me. Why take another school in Texas when you already have 4? There are way more Texas, Baylor, TCU, and Tech fans in Houston than there are Cougar fans.
BYU is solid though.
-
I think there are a few Tennessee fans who might argue with you about that.
There might be, but they'd be wrong
I was going to type the same thing as Coleman.
As the all time great Pat was, she never won 4 championships in a row, while UConn all time vs. Tennessee is 13-9 overall and 5-2 in NCAA games including 3-0 in National Championship games.
-
Houston doesn't make sense to me. Why take another school in Texas when you already have 4? There are way more Texas, Baylor, TCU, and Tech fans in Houston than there are Cougar fans.
BYU is solid though.
I saw some twitter reports from "insiders" of course whether true or not, saying U of Texas is interested in the Northeast (UConn specifically) and Florida. FWIW
The same feeds said they don't want another Texas school to compete with recruiting-wise.
-
There is no comparison between football destroying the old Big East and adding UConn to the current BEast. The old Big East was dominated by football first institutions. Adding UConn would add exactly 1 football first institution. They couldn't break up the Big East. At worst they would leave themselves and leave the Big East exactly how it is now. Assuming UConn even has football at that point.
Part of my reluctance in allowing UConn into the conference is simply the effect of opening the door to expansion generally. Right now the 10 members are pretty unified...even if we add UConn they are still relatively unified. However knowing executives and rich people like I do, they will see one good thing and assume they can do a bunch of good things the same way when really that one good thing was the only one out there.
UConn makes sense for a lot of reasons (regional rivalries, blue blood, previous Big East member, etc) but what happens the next time a team seems interested in the Big East. Let's say Syracuse leaves the ACC because the ACC gets raided, do we take them? Or lets say Cincinnati becomes available because the AAC sucks and the Big12 won't take them? You open the door to football schools, they will come in and eventually drive change that may not be for the good of the basketball schools.
Yes, this overblown concerns....but I've seen the way corporate organizations behave...they ruin things all the time :D
-
I saw some twitter reports from "insiders" of course whether true or not, saying U of Texas is interested in the Northeast (UConn specifically) and Florida. FWIW
The same feeds said they don't want another Texas school to compete with recruiting-wise.
I don't think Texas will have a lot of say at the expansion table this time as they threw their weight around last time with some bad results and have since lost a lot of their luster in both football and basketball.
Just can't see UConn going to the Big12 in all sports, that will be very costly.
-
I saw this post on The Boneyard. More Big 12 criteria and school groupings and timeline.
?????????????????
****************************************************************
This was posted by a supposedly insider, MSMoose, on the Cincy 247 board:
The Day After!
After a rather lengthy dinner and post dinner chat, I have a few updates for you from last evening.
Areas where the Big 12 institutions will focus when reviewing expansion candidates will be;
Strength of the institutions athletic department. More precisely, financials, leadership and staff, institution and private support, achievements, facilities, strategic plan, marketing, athletic academic support and success, cost of attendance.
Fan base size. More precisely the logistical makeup of the fan base (it’s reach), it’s cultural makeup, it’s willingness to support, it’s financial support, it’s national makeup. Finally, the alumni makeup, where are they, do they travel, demographics, etc.
Media market. More precisely an institutions local market, regional market, and national market.
Institutional reputation. More precisely, accomplishments, national and international recognition, staff makeup, funding, endowment, private support, research reputation, etc.
Academic strength. More precisely the measurements of an institutions academics per its independent divisions. For instance, an institutions medical school is ranked high with much success, but their engineering school is not.
The Big 12 has essentially created (3) lists of candidates for expansion;
The first list are those institutions who meet most or all the Big 12 membership criteria, need time to grow (2-5 years), and become P5 institutions. You can think of these institutions as those who have sufficient athletics funding, Tier 1 research institutions, academic success, athletic culture, and membership to the Big 12 would raise their status sooner than later.
The second list are those institutions who have athletic culture, however would not be considered as full member. These institutions could be institutions with football culture, but lack full athletics culture, or fail to meet specific Big 12 criteria in the form of Research and or Academics.
The third list are institutions that meet some of the Big 12 membership criteria, need time to grow (5-8 years), and become P5 institutions. These are institutions with high growth potential, membership to the Big 12 will allow these institutions in 5-8 years, to be P5 type institutions and still grow.
Institutions like Cincinnati and UCONN make the first list. While institutions like Boise State or UCF make the second list. Institutions like Memphis or Temple make the third list.
These lists are important in terms of negotiations, because if the Big 12 decides 4 is the right number for expansion two levels of candidates may be asked to join. So for a institution on the first list, the institution may propose a lesser time frame for the institutions transition to full membership. Where a institution on the second list, may have a transition period, however at a reduced full membership amount. Finally, a institution on the third list may be forced to offer concessions to the Big 12 for membership. Keep in mind the ball is the institutions hands when it comes to enticing the Big 12 for membership, however the Big 12 also must keep the big picture in mind.
Western based expansion does not generate short term or long term benefits, unless one considers partial membership such as football only. The money is not there when you talk to the network folks, which as we know is hurting the PAC 12 now, and long term. That said, membership to Boise State, and or BYU could be enticing, and profitable by brand for the Big 12.
Long term Eastward expansion is the desire of most Big 12 members. Institutions like Cincinnati and UCONN are great institutions, which with Big 12 membership will become quality long term P5 members. Institutions like UCF and Memphis have great potential, although they lack Big 12 Academic qualities.
Institutions unlike Cincinnati will have to present proposals showing not only their Athletic plans, but their Institutional plans in terms of Academics, Research, Endowment, etc.
Right now, I believe list 1 candidates Cincinnati and UCONN are 11 and 12 after discussions last night. I know I said Memphis as 12 prior, but last night changed my mind considerably. Then after 11 and 12, you have list 3 institutions like UCF and Memphis versus list 2 institutions BYU and Boise State. Ultimately, if the Big 12 President’s are not confident with list 3 candidates proposals, they can fall back on list 2 candidates who help them now.
I will post more in a few days, I have meetings in New York to attend to.
Go Bearcats!
All institutions who desire candidacy will need to make a formal proposal to the Big 12. Interviews with the Big 12 (Expansion Committee, I will call it) will follow. The Big 12 BOT will then discuss candidates via teleconference and also have access to contact candidates on their own. The Big 12 BOT may then decide to negotiate with specific institutions, or they may offer proposals to specific institutions. A lot depends on the institution proposals, and which direction the Big BOT chooses to proceed with.
The Big 12 is looking for a 60-90 day period to complete this work. At the same time, expansion will also affect how the Big 12 creates divisions, scheduling, etc. so a lot of factors are in play. Scheduling will also have a negative affect on BYU, in trying to terminate numerous scheduling agreements in such a short period of time. BYU has so many issues to overcome, my colleagues and I don't see any possibility of them succeeding.
Gotta run, but just want to pass along something I heard today. I can't corroborate this, however I will try my best during my travels to do so.
I am told Big 12 Consultants presented an alternative to the LHN, that would prove quite lucrative to the Big 12, assuming expansion to key markets and 14 members is agreed upon. Whether the network is linear or not, I do not know.
Stay tuned.
-
More Boneyard UConn fans feedback about a potential UConn/Big East reunion:
"If UConn athletics go back to the Big East I will have written my last check to the UConn Athletic Development Fund. I will not support a athletic department that decided to get back into bed with the small catholic schools like PC, Seton Hall, Marquette, DePaul and St Johns that decided to take their ball and leave after leeching off of schools like UConn for years...and instilling their will in some bad decisions that eventually hurt the BE."
"They wouldn't. That makes literally no sense. Like eating a banana peel and throwing the banana in the garbage."
"Yup...they (Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, ND, Rutgers) were the lucky ones that got a life ring...those other schools that you rave about (C7) and bow down to royal screwed over the BE and eventually caused its demise..all while leeching boat loads of $$ off of those schools you just mentioned and UConn."
UConn (administrators, athletic departments, fans and alumni) have zero interest in coming back to the Big East. They would view such a move as a throw-in-the-towel action against a potential move towards a P5 membership, something they refuse to give up.
Let them enjoy the American playing Tulane, East Carolina, USF, UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis and Temple. There's some big time football being played right there.
-
More Boneyard UConn fans feedback about a potential UConn/Big East reunion:
"If UConn athletics go back to the Big East I will have written my last check to the UConn Athletic Development Fund. I will not support a athletic department that decided to get back into bed with the small catholic schools like PC, Seton Hall, Marquette, DePaul and St Johns that decided to take their ball and leave after leeching off of schools like UConn for years...and instilling their will in some bad decisions that eventually hurt the BE."
"They wouldn't. That makes literally no sense. Like eating a banana peel and throwing the banana in the garbage."
"Yup...they (Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Louisville, ND, Rutgers) were the lucky ones that got a life ring...those other schools that you rave about (C7) and bow down to royal screwed over the BE and eventually caused its demise..all while leeching boat loads of $$ off of those schools you just mentioned and UConn."
UConn (administrators, athletic departments, fans and alumni) have zero interest in coming back to the Big East. They would view such a move as a throw-in-the-towel action against a potential move towards a P5 membership, something they refuse to give up.
Let them enjoy the American playing Tulane, East Carolina, USF, UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis and Temple. There's some big time football being played right there.
I understand their perspective. I disagree with it, but I see where they are coming from.
UCONN really got screwed. I think their anger is misplaced. It shouldn't be at the old Big East (which was originally a basketball conference, and no one forced UCONN to go to FBS football), or schools like MU, Georgetown, or Nova. Their anger should be directed at the P5 conferences who raided the old Big East.
Sometimes blind rage doesn't always find the correct target. But I understand the rage.
-
Part of my reluctance in allowing UConn into the conference is simply the effect of opening the door to expansion generally. Right now the 10 members are pretty unified...even if we add UConn they are still relatively unified. However knowing executives and rich people like I do, they will see one good thing and assume they can do a bunch of good things the same way when really that one good thing was the only one out there.
UConn makes sense for a lot of reasons (regional rivalries, blue blood, previous Big East member, etc) but what happens the next time a team seems interested in the Big East. Let's say Syracuse leaves the ACC because the ACC gets raided, do we take them? Or lets say Cincinnati becomes available because the AAC sucks and the Big12 won't take them? You open the door to football schools, they will come in and eventually drive change that may not be for the good of the basketball schools.
Yes, this overblown concerns....but I've seen the way corporate organizations behave...they ruin things all the time :D
I agree with this analysis.
-
I understand their perspective. I disagree with it, but I see where they are coming from.
UCONN really got screwed. I think their anger is misplaced. It shouldn't be at the old Big East (which was originally a basketball conference, and no one forced UCONN to go to FBS football), or schools like MU, Georgetown, or Nova. Their anger should be directed at the P5 conferences who raided the old Big East.
Sometimes blind rage doesn't always find the correct target. But I understand the rage.
Bingo.
The move of the "C7" schools was a response to the breakup of the old BE, not the cause of it.
-
Why would the ACC do this?
It probably wouldn't.
It was purely speculation on my part ... the kind I sometimes make fun of here on Scoop.
So, um, never mind!
-
UConn fans can try to make arguments about why the B12 would take them but they are kidding themselves. The B12 is a football conference. Their first, second, and third priorities are adding strong football programs. It doesn't matter that UConn matches in other categories. With such a weak football program, the B12 won't have interest. BYU and Cincy are the two. If they add 4, then it's a little more muddled and maybe there's hope for UConn. But Colorado State, Boise State, Houston, Memphis, and UCF all have pretty strong arguments.
-
UConn fans can try to make arguments about why the B12 would take them but they are kidding themselves. The B12 is a football conference. Their first, second, and third priorities are adding strong football programs. It doesn't matter that UConn matches in other categories. With such a weak football program, the B12 won't have interest. BYU and Cincy are the two. If they add 4, then it's a little more muddled and maybe there's hope for UConn. But Colorado State, Boise State, Houston, Memphis, and UCF all have pretty strong arguments.
I believe Jay Bilas summed up your response well.
"Big 12 gathers to talk about being at the forefront of education. No, wait...they're talking about money. My bad."
-
UConn fans can try to make arguments about why the B12 would take them but they are kidding themselves. The B12 is a football conference. Their first, second, and third priorities are adding strong football programs. It doesn't matter that UConn matches in other categories. With such a weak football program, the B12 won't have interest. BYU and Cincy are the two. If they add 4, then it's a little more muddled and maybe there's hope for UConn. But Colorado State, Boise State, Houston, Memphis, and UCF all have pretty strong arguments.
TAMU - I still think you are underestimating UConn football compared to the other candidates and despite this being about football its' really more about TV and $$$s.
So what if those rabid UConn basketball fans pay extra for a TV channel or Sports App to watch online and they get football programming as a "throw-in" with it. There's more of them and they're still paying extra $ that goes to the league.
-
It probably wouldn't.
It was purely speculation on my part ... the kind I sometimes make fun of here on Scoop.
So, um, never mind!
I think I was responsible for starting this so I will take the blame. My over-arching point was that if you want to worry about improbable things that will destroy the Big East - worry about one that would actually end it.
-
I think one of the survey answers should have been "UConn & ABD".
-
UConn fans can try to make arguments about why the B12 would take them but they are kidding themselves. The B12 is a football conference. Their first, second, and third priorities are adding strong football programs. It doesn't matter that UConn matches in other categories. With such a weak football program, the B12 won't have interest. BYU and Cincy are the two. If they add 4, then it's a little more muddled and maybe there's hope for UConn. But Colorado State, Boise State, Houston, Memphis, and UCF all have pretty strong arguments.
They're not kidding themselves. The Big 12's entire expansion strategy is based on generating the most TV revenue. Adding 4 teams will generate the most revenue, and a 4 team package including UCONN probably has the most potential.
Now, it will be interesting to see how much pull the football powers have at the Big 12 schools. They want Houston & BYU, but I'm not sure how much money that generates.
-
Bingo.
The move of the "C7" schools was a response to the breakup of the old BE, not the cause of it.
Well, if we're going to be technical, we can argue all day about causes, but it was the C7's departure which ultimately broke up the old Big East, i.e. there was still a conference left after Pitt, Cuse, WVU, etc. departed, but a) it's not like UCONN is in a worse place today than they would have been had the C7 stuck around and b) the C7 was about to get screwed if it didn't do anything... as soon as the new football members would have been "confirmed," the C7 would have lost all voting power and forever been at the mercy of the likes of Tulane, Houston, Tulsa, etc. UCONN sided with the football schools, so their basketball program got left behind.
So while it was the C7 who broke up the old Big East, UCONN made their own bed that they're sleeping in today.
-
Bingo.
The move of the "C7" schools was a response to the breakup of the old BE, not the cause of it.
Putting it on us, who left after West Virginia, Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, and Notre Dame had all secured their greener pastures moves, is silly. We were left with essentially three football schools in UConn, Cincy, and South Florida. That was it. And we should've stayed for Houston, SMU (trainwreck at the time), Temple, Tulane, and the rest of the C-USA castoffs?
Everyone knows that was a basketball league. The football success they had all left when Miami and Virginia Tech headed to the ACC. Every move the football schools were making was to dilute the basketball product. The only way to maintain an elite basketball league was to cut the tie. Look at what's left over there. It's a mostly garbage basketball league with 2-3 good programs. Pretty much Cincy, UConn, and a collection of mediore at best (and god-awful at worst) basketball schools. Why should we have been responsible for propping them up, especially when it meant bringing 4-5 teams to our gyms in January and February that were worse than the buy games we played in November and December?
-
I think one of the survey answers should have been "UConn & ABD".
YES!
ABD!
-
No reason you can't have a 20-game conference season. It would reduce the number of non-con games by two, but two games with UConn for the entire league would be more valuable than any non-con games that could be scheduled.
ACC commish Swofford announces league moving to 20 league men's basketball games in 2019-20.
-
Imagine, we could be in a conference (again) today with East Carolina, Tulane, UCF, SMU and Houston. Marquette, under Larry Williams, and the Catholic-7 leaving and keeping the Big East brand and MSG will go down as one of the most important decisions in our respective programs' histories. If we had gotten stuck with that group, we would have confirmed ourselves to collegiate athletics purgatory.
-
ACC commish Swofford announces league moving to 20 league men's basketball games in 2019-20.
No reason the Big East couldn't do the same, and highly unlikely a program like UConn would have a negative net impact on the league.
Let's be honest...if non-con games were really that great and we really wanted as many of those "marbles" as we could get, everyone would be playing 10-14 game conference schedules. The reality is that you make your money in the conference season. That's the product you are selling to networks and those are the games where you generally know the strength of all your opponents. And the ACC wouldn't go to a 20-game schedule if they thought it was going to have a negative affect on the value of their basketball product.
-
No reason the Big East couldn't do the same, and highly unlikely a program like UConn would have a negative net impact on the league.
Let's be honest...if non-con games were really that great and we really wanted as many of those "marbles" as we could get, everyone would be playing 10-14 game conference schedules. The reality is that you make your money in the conference season. That's the product you are selling to networks and those are the games where you generally know the strength of all your opponents. And the ACC wouldn't go to a 20-game schedule if they thought it was going to have a negative affect on the value of their basketball product.
There's a happy medium. 20 conference games is too many. Just because it brings in the most money doesn't mean it's the best thing for your program. Sure, for the people that get that money in their pockets it's awesome. Big East programs aren't on the verge of dropping athletic programs to D3 because there is no money in their athletic department. There's no need to sell out just to get some extra money.
Selling the tale that we're a "power conference" in basketball and the best "basketball only" conference out there and then inviting a public university with a football program that will jump ship the second 1 of 5 other conferences comes calling doesn't exactly fit that narrative.
-
There's a happy medium. 20 conference games is too many. Just because it brings in the most money doesn't mean it's the best thing for your program. Sure, for the people that get that money in their pockets it's awesome.
Selling the tale that we're a "power conference" in basketball and a basketball only conference and then inviting a public university with a football program that will jump at the first chance 1 of 5 other conferences comes calling doesn't exactly fit that narrative.
I haven't seen a compelling reason yet why we wouldn't take UConn. The schedule? No, because others are going to that same schedule. The football? No, because the basketball schools would still have the power and they would have neither the power nor inclination to upset our applecart. Because they might leave? Who cares? Then we go back to being exactly what we are now, which we're happy with.
In the pantheon of basketball in the past 20 years, UConn is absolutely, no questions asked a top-5 program. They've made the Elite Eight 8 times, the Final Four 5 times, and cut down the nets 4 times. They've won 14 tournament and conference titles in 10 different seasons. They are a program that legitimately moves the dial. You could put up an argument for someone like Cincy, Memphis, Temple, or any number of other schools. But none of them remotely approach the value that UConn has as a basketball program. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina. That's the ilk we're talking about. You could honestly argue UConn's national titles puts them at the head of that list. And that's without mentioning a women's program that has won 10 of the last 17 titles.
If Duke, Kentucky, or Kansas dropped football and wanted entrance, would anyone say no? That's the level of performance UConn's men's program has put up.
-
Here's the thing for me...this is win-win. If we add UConn, we get a truly elite basketball program that raises our profile and further establishes us as one of the best basketball conferences in the country. If we don't get UConn, we already have a great basketball-driven league. There is no losing in this situation. Either we stay the best basketball-only conference (and top-4 of all conferences at worst) or we become even stronger. Where's the downside?
This is so much better than 2010.
-
I haven't seen a compelling reason yet why we wouldn't take UConn. The schedule? No, because others are going to that same schedule. The football? No, because the basketball schools would still have the power and they would have neither the power nor inclination to upset our applecart. Because they might leave? Who cares? Then we go back to being exactly what we are now, which we're happy with.
In the pantheon of basketball in the past 20 years, UConn is absolutely, no questions asked a top-5 program. They've made the Elite Eight 8 times, the Final Four 5 times, and cut down the nets 4 times. They've won 14 tournament and conference titles in 10 different seasons. They are a program that legitimately moves the dial. You could put up an argument for someone like Cincy, Memphis, Temple, or any number of other schools. But none of them remotely approach the value that UConn has as a basketball program. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina. That's the ilk we're talking about. You could honestly argue UConn's national titles puts them at the head of that list. And that's without mentioning a women's program that has won 10 of the last 17 titles.
If Duke, Kentucky, or Kansas dropped football and wanted entrance, would anyone say no? That's the level of performance UConn's men's program has put up.
There's the difference.
UCONN isn't dropping football. We don't need to be some stepping stone conference. We can leave that to the AAC. UCONN would be around 5 years tops. There's no need for it.
If UCONN wants to drop football (they don't)...welcome back to the BE boys! As it is, good luck in the AAC until a power conference needs to expand to 20 teams and you get your invite there.
-
TAMU - I still think you are underestimating UConn football compared to the other candidates and despite this being about football its' really more about TV and $$$s.
So what if those rabid UConn basketball fans pay extra for a TV channel or Sports App to watch online and they get football programming as a "throw-in" with it. There's more of them and they're still paying extra $ that goes to the league.
UConn football is a non-entity on the national scene.
-
There's the difference.
UCONN isn't dropping football. We don't need to be some stepping stone conference. We can leave that to the AAC. UCONN would be around 5 years tops. There's no need for it.
If UCONN wants to drop football (they don't)...welcome back to the BE boys! As it is, good luck in the AAC until a power conference needs to expand to 20 teams and you get your invite there.
Dropped football, moved football, regardless. If Duke or Kentucky were available for basketball, everyone in the Big East would bend over backwards to welcome them in. And they would be absolutely brain dead stupid to not do so.
-
I haven't seen a compelling reason yet why we wouldn't take UConn. The schedule? No, because others are going to that same schedule. The football? No, because the basketball schools would still have the power and they would have neither the power nor inclination to upset our applecart. Because they might leave? Who cares? Then we go back to being exactly what we are now, which we're happy with.
In the pantheon of basketball in the past 20 years, UConn is absolutely, no questions asked a top-5 program. They've made the Elite Eight 8 times, the Final Four 5 times, and cut down the nets 4 times. They've won 14 tournament and conference titles in 10 different seasons. They are a program that legitimately moves the dial. You could put up an argument for someone like Cincy, Memphis, Temple, or any number of other schools. But none of them remotely approach the value that UConn has as a basketball program. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina. That's the ilk we're talking about. You could honestly argue UConn's national titles puts them at the head of that list. And that's without mentioning a women's program that has won 10 of the last 17 titles.
If Duke, Kentucky, or Kansas dropped football and wanted entrance, would anyone say no? That's the level of performance UConn's men's program has put up.
There is value in staying focused. We have a very good league that will only get better. U Conn takes away from that focus with their constant desire to upgrade. Who wants a bunch of headlines about the collapse of the Big East again. We just finally got beyond that. Villanova won the National Championship and we should be taking a victory lap. Ultimately U Conn is going to be in a Power 5 conference. The only reason they are not currently in the ACC is they got out maneuvered by political connections by Louisville.
U Conn basketball was a solid team in the Yankee conference prior to the advent of the Big East, and really did nothing special until Jim Calhoun got involved. Then they took off in the 90s and ultimately became close , if not, a blue blood . All that is to say if the Big East stay focused there is nothing from preventing one or two of our current schools from taking off and becoming a Blue Blood or at the top tier of the high majors.
If MU wants to play U Conn then lets get them on the non conference schedule for several years. That would be the best for us.
-
UConn football is a non-entity on the national scene.
Doesn't matter, it's raking in millions more for the school than basketball and therefore will always be the number one consideration.
-
There is value in staying focused. We have a very good league that will only get better. U Conn takes away from that focus with their constant desire to upgrade. Who wants a bunch of headlines about the collapse of the Big East again. We just finally got beyond that. Villanova won the National Championship and we should be taking a victory lap. Ultimately U Conn is going to be in a Power 5 conference. The only reason they are not currently in the ACC is they got out maneuvered by political connections by Louisville.
Adding an elite basketball program doesn't take away from being focused on being an elite basketball conference. Quite the opposite. Honestly, I don't think UConn will be getting full P5 membership any time soon. The ACC and Big 10 kicked the tires and said no thanks. Now it sounds like the Big 12 might be interested but only for football. Will that change soon? Don't know, but I do know that they are still an elite basketball program that would only make our league on the whole better.
U Conn basketball was a solid team in the Yankee conference prior to the advent of the Big East, and really did nothing special until Jim Calhoun got involved. Then they took off in the 90s and ultimately became close , if not, a blue blood . All that is to say if the Big East stay focused there is nothing from preventing one or two of our current schools from taking off and becoming a Blue Blood or at the top tier of the high majors.
UConn wouldn't prevent that, more likely they would enhance that. Give Villanova (or Georgetown or Marquette or whomever) the chance to play UConn twice a year and that only makes their resume and credentials better. I don't care what UConn was or wasn't 30 years ago. I know what they are now and have seen Kevin Ollie win a title and recruit pretty well in the past few years. I'm not saying anyone else is worth it. But they are.
If MU wants to play U Conn then lets get them on the non conference schedule for several years. That would be the best for us.
Doubt that would happen. They already are playing the old Big East foes they want. This is effectively adding two high-major home-and-home series for everyone in the league. Better for us, better for the Big East, better for UConn (assuming they go football only elsewhere).
And again, if they leave, who cares? We go back to being the great conference we are having reaped the financial rewards of having a blue blood for X number of years. Win-win.
-
Adding an elite basketball program doesn't take away from being focused on being an elite basketball conference. Quite the opposite. Honestly, I don't think UConn will be getting full P5 membership any time soon. The ACC and Big 10 kicked the tires and said no thanks. Now it sounds like the Big 12 might be interested but only for football. Will that change soon? Don't know, but I do know that they are still an elite basketball program that would only make our league on the whole better.
UConn wouldn't prevent that, more likely they would enhance that. Give Villanova (or Georgetown or Marquette or whomever) the chance to play UConn twice a year and that only makes their resume and credentials better. I don't care what UConn was or wasn't 30 years ago. I know what they are now and have seen Kevin Ollie win a title and recruit pretty well in the past few years. I'm not saying anyone else is worth it. But they are.
Doubt that would happen. They already are playing the old Big East foes they want. This is effectively adding two high-major home-and-home series for everyone in the league. Better for us, better for the Big East, better for UConn (assuming they go football only elsewhere).
And again, if they leave, who cares? We go back to being the great conference we are having reaped the financial rewards of having a blue blood for X number of years. Win-win.
The Big East is a high major conference, we don't need to be seen as a stepping stone for someone else's ambitions. If UConn took permanently took their football down to the same level as Villanova then the conversation would be worth having. Until then let them flop in the breeze in the bed they made for themselves.
-
I agree with pretty much everything brewski is saying.
Who knew we were both so damn smart?!?!?!
-
Adding any school with football will be short sighted. It's why the old Big East is no longer. If we want the new Big East to be no longer, then sure. Start adding football schools that will be gone within the next 5 years. Forget that the league was created to prevent this exact thing just 2 years ago. Let's bring back football schools!
Stay the course, respect the process, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
-
Adding any school with football will be short sighted. It's why the old Big East is no longer. If we want the new Big East to be no longer, then sure. Start adding football schools that will be gone within the next 5 years. Forget that the league was created to prevent this exact thing just 2 years ago. Let's bring back football schools!
Stay the course, respect the process, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" has to be one of the dumbest sayings of all time. If people really followed that advice we'd still be driving Model Ts, talking on rotary dial phones, watching black and white tube televisions, and doing our work on IBM PCs running DOS. Improvement means taking risks, trying new things, not being happy with the status quo. Adding UConn (if they became available) is a slight risk but one well worth it based on the many improvements it would create for the Big East.
Even the risk of adding UConn is small. There are two major problems with the old Big East that the new Big East needs to avoid. First, making decisions (especially on new members) based on football. Second is losing many of your best teams to other leagues because of football. Right now the Big East could add UConn (and even another team) for all sports other than football and run little risk of facing these two problems. Football will never drive conference decisions because it is not a football conference and never will be. As for the risk of losing teams, you could eventually lose UConn, but you won't ever have a mass exodus. The current 10 members are very stable and there is little reason to fear any will leave. So what if you add UConn now and they leave in 3 years? You've enjoyed 3 years of having a great addition to your league but the net result leaves you no different than you are today.
-
Doesn't matter, it's raking in millions more for the school than basketball and therefore will always be the number one consideration.
I hear this all the time, but is it actually true for UConn? Football money mostly comes from TV contracts. As an AAC member, UConn is making 2.7 Million a year (I think that's right). Marquette is making 4 million a year without football. Where does UConn football make enough money to make up for the 1.3 million difference in TV contracts? Not to mention that Football comes with millions more in costs than basketball does. Also not to mention that UConn basketball adds to the prestige of the university, attractiveness to students, and donations by alumni more than football does.
I get that if they got into a P5 conference, football would make them millions. But until they get there....
-
I hear this all the time, but is it actually true for UConn? Football money mostly comes from TV contracts. As an AAC member, UConn is making 2.7 Million a year (I think that's right). Marquette is making 4 million a year without football. Where does UConn football make enough money to make up for the 1.3 million difference in TV contracts? Not to mention that Football comes with millions more in costs than basketball does. Also not to mention that UConn basketball adds to the prestige of the university, attractiveness to students, and donations by alumni more than football does.
I get that if they got into a P5 conference, football would make them millions. But until they get there....
2.7 Million - I think that's just the TV money from the AAC?
The men's & women's team have separate contracts with SNY. The women make $1.2mil from SNY and I'm sure the men's deal is even higher.
-
TAMU - I still think you are underestimating UConn football compared to the other candidates and despite this being about football its' really more about TV and $$$s.
So what if those rabid UConn basketball fans pay extra for a TV channel or Sports App to watch online and they get football programming as a "throw-in" with it. There's more of them and they're still paying extra $ that goes to the league.
What extra TV Channel are these rabid UConn fans paying for? The Big 12 doesn't have a network and have publicly said that they have no plans to get one. Everyone already has ESPN and Fox. No one's paying for anything extra. In the Big 12's case it is about what programs will drive eyeballs to the screen and what programs will help them get a postseason bid. Of the candidates, BYU and Cincy win those categories in a landslide. UConn comes in last. Now UConn does come in first for basketball, but I don't think that's high on the B12's checklist.
Now if the B12 takes 4, I could see UConn cobbling enough together to be attractive enough to be the 4th team. But Houston, Memphis, UCF, Boise State, and Colorado State all have better football programs and bigger football fan bases. That is a lot for the Huskies to overcome.
Meanwhile, I'm just happy to be at the top of the food chain in the basketball world.
-
2.7 Million - I think that's just the TV money from the AAC?
The men's & women's team have separate contracts with SNY. The women make $1.2mil from SNY and I'm sure the men's deal is even higher.
Is that deal with SNY just for basketball? Or is football in on that too? Because if its just basketball, it furthers the point that basketball actually makes more money for the Huskies than football.
-
I hear this all the time, but is it actually true for UConn? Football money mostly comes from TV contracts. As an AAC member, UConn is making 2.7 Million a year (I think that's right). Marquette is making 4 million a year without football. Where does UConn football make enough money to make up for the 1.3 million difference in TV contracts? Not to mention that Football comes with millions more in costs than basketball does. Also not to mention that UConn basketball adds to the prestige of the university, attractiveness to students, and donations by alumni more than football does.
I get that if they got into a P5 conference, football would make them millions. But until they get there....
This is my point, if they come to the Big East, they will still be chasing the P5 football money and it will lead UConn wherever it wants and that will likely be contrary to what is in the best interests of the other schools in the Big East.
-
What extra TV Channel are these rabid UConn fans paying for? The Big 12 doesn't have a network and have publicly said that they have no plans to get one. Everyone already has ESPN and Fox. No one's paying for anything extra. In the Big 12's case it is about what programs will drive eyeballs to the screen and what programs will help them get a postseason bid. Of the candidates, BYU and Cincy win those categories in a landslide. UConn comes in last. Now UConn does come in first for basketball, but I don't think that's high on the B12's checklist.
Now if the B12 takes 4, I could see UConn cobbling enough together to be attractive enough to be the 4th team. But Houston, Memphis, UCF, Boise State, and Colorado State all have better football programs and bigger football fan bases. That is a lot for the Huskies to overcome.
Meanwhile, I'm just happy to be at the top of the food chain in the basketball world.
Doesn't UConn get them access to NYC eyeballs?
-
Is that deal with SNY just for basketball? Or is football in on that too? Because if its just basketball, it furthers the point that basketball actually makes more money for the Huskies than football.
I'm pretty sure they have 3 separate deals for FB, MBB & WBB. They get coach's shows and games televised not contractually on somewhere else.
-
So BE leadership is perfectly ok with UConn parking two non-revenue generating sports in the conference but might not be ok with parking UConns cash cow in the conference?
Thats some wack logic.
Hey maybe we can add their ping pong team...so long as their two basketball teams stay away.
Im pretty sure nova, gu, shu, prov, and sju would like having uconn back in the conference. Their fanbase travels around the northeast well and would help with attendance.
And FS1 would prob like to steal a property away from espn.
Ultimately, i think they end up in the B12 until their tv contract expires.
-
I bet they remain in the AAC. I think UConn would be pretty far down the B12's list.
-
I bet they remain in the AAC. I think UConn would be pretty far down the B12's list.
G5s positioning themselves for a P5 invite have absolutely no leverage. Its already being assumed that the new members will get a small fraction of the pro-rata payout. If the B12 offers 8M per year for the new schools, all of them will jump.
UConn will bend over and agree to play home football games against OU and UT in either the Meadowlands, Yankee Stadium, or Foxboro.
If the B12 asks Uconn to play their home basketball game against KU in MSG, UConn will agree.
If the B12 asks the Chancellor of UConn to grab her ankles, she will.
For similar reasons, I like Cincy, too. They will agree to play OU and UT at Paul Brown Stadium.
Houston will get in in the same fashion VTech got into the ACC. Politics will win out eventually.
Number 4 is up for grabs.
-
Doesn't UConn get them access to NYC eyeballs?
I'm not an expert in this, so someone correct me if I'm wrong (definitely possible). For conferences like the Big 10, SEC, and soon the ACC (missed on that prediction) who have their own networks, new markets are more important because of the deals they can strike to get their networks into local tv packages. The best example of this is B1G adding Rutgers and Maryland and then getting the B1G network onto basic cable for that whole part of the east coast. To a lesser extent the Big East benefits from new TV markets because it helps Fox leverage FS1 and FS2.
For a conference like the B12, that doesn't have its own network and whose rights are owned by networks that everyone already has, its less about new markets and more about how many eyeballs you can get on the game. Sure there is some benefit to new markets because local advertisers spend money on the games. However, if I'm an advertiser in NYC, I'm going to spend more money on Syracuse, St. John's, Notre Dame, and B1G teams than I am on UConn football. So yes, UConn gets you some NYC eyeballs, but I don't think its as many as you think.
So new markets are still a factor but the more important question is "if UConn is playing Kansas in football, will anybody be watching?"
-
Crean sucks
-
Meanwhile, the clocks in Storrs read:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/AqLfL0uNuZDBm/giphy.gif)
-
Doesn't matter, it's raking in millions more for the school than basketball and therefore will always be the number one consideration.
UCONN's football program loses between $6-10M each year. The basketball team brings in a profit.
Those football loses would be substantially higher if they didn't charge close to $1k in student fees for athletics each year per student (They charge $2800 total, about $1k of which is for athletics), much of which gets assigned as football revenue.
Football is a big loser for UCONN.
-
UConn, and other schools, view football and sports in general as a marketing expense. They get people to campus, rally community and alumni support, and provide exposure. Viewing it as a straight profit or loss misses the point entirely.
The real question is if it is a legitimate marketing expense. Or are there better ways to use that money.
-
UConn, and other schools, view football and sports in general as a marketing expense. They get people to campus, rally community and alumni support, and provide exposure. Viewing it as a straight profit or loss misses the point entirely.
The real question is if it is a legitimate marketing expense. Or are there better ways to use that money.
And getting access to a P5 league would get them a share of a contract that would greatly offset those losses. Probably a large part of why they're so unwilling to give it up and so desperate to take that step up. The AAC is a huge loser for them.
-
And getting access to a P5 league would get them a share of a contract that would greatly offset those losses. Probably a large part of why they're so unwilling to give it up and so desperate to take that step up. The AAC is a huge loser for them.
Yet schools continue to add the sport. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 10-15 years.
-
Yet schools continue to add the sport. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 10-15 years.
Has the feel of a bubble that has to burst. I get that there's huge money in the bowl games and current ratings, but there's a clear consolidation effort by the P5 to keep as much of that money as possible for themselves. At some point, there will either be less eyeballs, or the eyeballs that are there will be focused on a smaller number of programs.
I get why UConn is so desperate for a big-time invite. Programs like that, even if they're losing money now, make sense. They see a golden carrot and have to chase. But the other schools that are currently adding, schools like Charlotte, Mercer, Kennesaw State, do they really think they'll be included when the big boys take seats away from the table?
-
Has the feel of a bubble that has to burst. I get that there's huge money in the bowl games and current ratings, but there's a clear consolidation effort by the P5 to keep as much of that money as possible for themselves. At some point, there will either be less eyeballs, or the eyeballs that are there will be focused on a smaller number of programs.
I get why UConn is so desperate for a big-time invite. Programs like that, even if they're losing money now, make sense. They see a golden carrot and have to chase. But the other schools that are currently adding, schools like Charlotte, Mercer, Kennesaw State, do they really think they'll be included when the big boys take seats away from the table?
I've been saying this for at least a year now. Live sports content is the biggest revenue generator in entertainment right now which is creating huge contracts for the P5 that UConn is trying to jump on. However, there are enough negative forces (concussions, negative PR, athletics/academic tensions, etc) with an inevitable things that go up must come down that make it feel like there is a bubble that's going to burst. I think we'll look back on the landscape 5-10 years from now and it will look very, very different.
And part of that believe forms my concern and why I want to stay as far away from football as possible in the Big East.
-
I'm not an expert in this, so someone correct me if I'm wrong (definitely possible). For conferences like the Big 10, SEC, and soon the ACC (missed on that prediction) who have their own networks, new markets are more important because of the deals they can strike to get their networks into local tv packages. The best example of this is B1G adding Rutgers and Maryland and then getting the B1G network onto basic cable for that whole part of the east coast. To a lesser extent the Big East benefits from new TV markets because it helps Fox leverage FS1 and FS2.
For a conference like the B12, that doesn't have its own network and whose rights are owned by networks that everyone already has, its less about new markets and more about how many eyeballs you can get on the game. Sure there is some benefit to new markets because local advertisers spend money on the games. However, if I'm an advertiser in NYC, I'm going to spend more money on Syracuse, St. John's, Notre Dame, and B1G teams than I am on UConn football. So yes, UConn gets you some NYC eyeballs, but I don't think its as many as you think.
So new markets are still a factor but the more important question is "if UConn is playing Kansas in football, will anybody be watching?"
If Rutgers is playing Indiana in football is anyone watching?
-
If Rutgers is playing Indiana in football is anyone watching?
It doesn't matter. The B1G has their own network. And because of the Rutgers addition they were able to strike a deal that put the B1G Network onto basic cable for the entire NYC metro area. That means even if zero people watch every person with cable in NYC is still paying for the B1G Network. Same isn't true for the B12. So Rutgers was an awful football addition but a huge money maker.
Also, more people are watching the Rutgers Indiana game than the UConn Kansas football game.
-
It doesn't matter. The B1G has their own network. And because of the Rutgers addition they were able to strike a deal that put the B1G Network onto basic cable for the entire NYC metro area. That means even if zero people watch every person with cable in NYC is still paying for the B1G Network. Same isn't true for the B12. So Rutgers was an awful football addition but a huge money maker.
Also, more people are watching the Rutgers Indiana game than the UConn Kansas football game.
At this point, we're just going to have to wait 2-3 months to see where the Big12 goes.
-
If Rutgers is playing Indiana in football is anyone watching?
I guess it depends which network it's on. It will draw more than most regular season college basketball games. 57% of cbb games draws a 0.0 to 0.1 rating. Wash St/Rutgers on ESPNU in mid-day going up with games on ABC, CBS, etc had 461K.
-
No reason the Big East couldn't do the same, and highly unlikely a program like UConn would have a negative net impact on the league.
Let's be honest...if non-con games were really that great and we really wanted as many of those "marbles" as we could get, everyone would be playing 10-14 game conference schedules. The reality is that you make your money in the conference season. That's the product you are selling to networks and those are the games where you generally know the strength of all your opponents. And the ACC wouldn't go to a 20-game schedule if they thought it was going to have a negative affect on the value of their basketball product.
As you're alluding... it's all money, and there's a very delicate balance between the money:
1) That the conference earns from TV revenue (i.e. contractual obligations) during conference play
2) That the individual schools earns from marginal ticket sales during conference play
3) That the conference (and individual schools) earns from NCAA Tournament shares.
The ACC can afford to go to 20 games because the bumps to #1 and #2 more than offset any effect to #3... let's remember that the ACC has a ton of schools, most of whom could be in the tournament in any given year. They also have a fat, juicy TV contract that makes them less reliant on tourney shares.
The reality is that the Big East is highly reliant on tourney shares. Our TV contract isn't that lucrative. Attendance is declining overall. The difference between perennially having 3 teams and 6 teams in the dance is quite significant, especially when one considers that for the Big East to accomplish that, it has to send 60% of it's members to the dance, whereas 6 teams from the ACC means 40%... that's why the Big East needs as many marbles as possible, because you have fewer "feeders" in the Big East (i.e. those who bring marbles in but don't dance) like Marquette and Georgetown last year than you have in the ACC... and as any of us frequenting the fishing thread will tell you, you're not going to land trophies unless you have a strong stock of feeders.
To be clear, I'm not advocating against adding UCONN as a 11th member... I'm simply saying that a 20-game conference season won't fly in the Big East. If UCONN came home to the Big East, I'd rather keep the 18-game season than round-robin home-and-homes with everyone.
-
At this point, we're just going to have to wait 2-3 months to see where the Big12 goes.
I agree with this analysis.
-
I get why UConn is so desperate for a big-time invite. Programs like that, even if they're losing money now, make sense. They see a golden carrot and have to chase. But the other schools that are currently adding, schools like Charlotte, Mercer, Kennesaw State, do they really think they'll be included when the big boys take seats away from the table?
I live in Charlotte and read a lot about UNCC's sports. I still haven't quite figured out what the goal of their new football program is. They play in a nice, new stadium that is quite small but they struggle to fill its seats, and they never, ever, ever will be part of a P5 conference. I'm guessing the football program is losing money, but I confess I don't know for sure.
-
And getting access to a P5 league would get them a share of a contract that would greatly offset those losses. Probably a large part of why they're so unwilling to give it up and so desperate to take that step up. The AAC is a huge loser for them.
This is a an article in the local paper that outlines some of the issues that U Conn is dealing with. Item 2 is of particular interest.
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-uconn-big-12-qa-0721-20160720-story.html
-
Our TV contract isn't that lucrative.
It's actually pretty close to on-par with the ACC. According to BC's athletic director the ACC makes 85% of its tv revenue from football. I imagine that's more than most P5 conferences since basketball is their bread and butter. In any event, the ACC's tv contact is for $347 million per year. Divided by the 14 full member schools gives a distribution of $24.8 million per school. 15% of 24.8 is $3.72 million. Our contract is for $4.1 million per school per year. ($500 million over 12 years divided by 10 schools). That's not even including the money they give to Notre Dame for their basketball games.
http://www.businessinsider.com/scandal-espn-told-acc-which-teams-to-take-from-big-east-conference-2011-10
http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/index.ssf/2016/05/acc_feeling_sense_of_urgency_for_network_partnership_with_espn.html (Note that while the conference distributed $31.2 million to each school, that is not solely tv revenue)
-
UConn, and other schools, view football and sports in general as a marketing expense. They get people to campus, rally community and alumni support, and provide exposure. Viewing it as a straight profit or loss misses the point entirely.
The real question is if it is a legitimate marketing expense. Or are there better ways to use that money.
For UConn, then they are idiots. Basketball gets them 10,000 times the exposure as football. I understand for other schools, that getting their name across the ticker even losing 100-0 gets them exposure. That's not the case for UConn.
Football doesn't bring in enough people to campus or rally the community and alumni for UConn. They stick with it solely because they think they sunk too much money to turn back and are still praying for a bid to the big leagues.
Their sole analysis is that if they get an invite to a P5 conference, they can recoup the probably around $30-50M they have lost on football over the last 5 years. And then, they can break even moving forward. Problem is, it is unlikely they get the invite.
Even if they do, they will never offset the $30-50M in losses. They will be required to heavily invest in expanding stadiums, facilities and be traveling all their teams across the country, all while initially receiving less than a full share. Once they do receive the full share, they will be sinking all addition profits into an arms race. Its a less than zero sum game except for about 20-30 teams nationwide.
-
Yeah I don't disagree with much of that. We will have to see how it plays out I guess.
-
For UConn, then they are idiots. Basketball gets them 10,000 times the exposure as football. I understand for other schools, that getting their name across the ticker even losing 100-0 gets them exposure. That's not the case for UConn.
Football doesn't bring in enough people to campus or rally the community and alumni for UConn. They stick with it solely because they think they sunk too much money to turn back and are still praying for a bid to the big leagues.
Their sole analysis is that if they get an invite to a P5 conference, they can recoup the probably around $30-50M they have lost on football over the last 5 years. And then, they can break even moving forward. Problem is, it is unlikely they get the invite.
Even if they do, they will never offset the $30-50M in losses. They will be required to heavily invest in expanding stadiums, facilities and be traveling all their teams across the country, all while initially receiving less than a full share. Once they do receive the full share, they will be sinking all addition profits into an arms race. Its a less than zero sum game except for about 20-30 teams nationwide.
U Conn snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when they decided to put their stadium in Hartford . They would have been much better off with an on campus facility. Could have had some really nice football weekends.
-
BYU is saying that while not preferred, they are will accept an offer for football only.
I will guess that UConn would take that in a heartbeat.
If UConn comes knocking on the door to move all other sports to the Big East, I think we should say yes.
-
U Conn snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when they decided to put their stadium in Hartford . They would have been much better off with an on campus facility. Could have had some really nice football weekends.
I never realized it wasn't on campus. I agree with you. Dumb idea.
-
BYU is saying that while not preferred, they are will accept an offer for football only.
I will guess that UConn would take that in a heartbeat.
If UConn comes knocking on the door to move all other sports to the Big East, I think we should say yes.
I would be more than ok with that outcome. But I am having trouble figuring out why the B12 would want UConn for football only.
-
U Conn snatched defeat from the jaws of victory when they decided to put their stadium in Hartford . They would have been much better off with an on campus facility. Could have had some really nice football weekends.
Miami has the same problem. Always build your stadium on campus.
-
BYU is saying that while not preferred, they are will accept an offer for football only.
And that makes tons of sense. BYU has a place to keep their non-football sports already (WCC) and then the B12 doesn't have to accommodate their "no Sunday" requirement.
I would be more than ok with that outcome. But I am having trouble figuring out why the B12 would want UConn for football only.
Right. Makes a lot more sense to take the best school for all sports at that point. Having an odd number of schools isn't that big of a deal. The B10 did it for years. The ACC does it now.
-
I would be more than ok with that outcome. But I am having trouble figuring out why the B12 would want UConn for football only.
Well if Big 12 is looking at adding 2 schools and BYU says they are willing to be football only, I could see the Big 12 looking at adding another football only school. I don't know if the other universities would be willing to do that but I could see UConn offering that option as they could possibly have a very soft landing spot in the Big East.
I think it is a win-win for everyone. Big 12 gets two football schools to get their Championship game without adding the additional expenses/issues of other sports. Some of their teams get exposure playing a winnable game on the east coast. UConn gets football and goes into a much better basketball conference. BYU gets a bump in football from independent to Big 12. Big East gets a tradition rich men's and women's basketball program. With BYU offering up football only, I think the Big 12 might run with that idea.
-
Well if Big 12 is looking at adding 2 schools and BYU says they are willing to be football only, I could see the Big 12 looking at adding another football only school. I don't know if the other universities would be willing to do that but I could see UConn offering that option as they could possibly have a very soft landing spot in the Big East.
I think it is a win-win for everyone. Big 12 gets two football schools to get their Championship game without adding the additional expenses/issues of other sports. Some of their teams get exposure playing a winnable game on the east coast. UConn gets football and goes into a much better basketball conference. BYU gets a bump in football from independent to Big 12. Big East gets a tradition rich men's and women's basketball program. With BYU offering up football only, I think the Big 12 might run with that idea.
I get all that, but football is the weakest part of UConns candidacy. I think if they go football only there are other schools with better football programs.
-
the football stadium is east of Hartford. Probably 6-8 miles from the Storrs campus.
-
I never realized it wasn't on campus. I agree with you. Dumb idea.
There are several reasons why it's not on campus.
1) They did not have a place on campus.
2) The state was paying and wanted it downtown Hartford and there really wasn't a place there either. The Rent is only 2 miles from downtown.
3) UTC / Pratt & Whitney basically gave the land for nothing to the state significantly reducing the cost to build a stadium.
4) The stadium lead to full development including commercial and office of the neighborhood (still in progress) providing jobs.
5) When they built the Big East wasn't imploding.
-
the football stadium is east of Hartford. Probably 6-8 miles from the Storrs campus.
25 miles from campus.
-
The scary prospect about this whole situation is that if/when UConn gets left behind yet again (2003-2005 w/ the ACC, 2010-2012 w/ the ACC, and now 2016 w/ the Big 12), it still will not convince Connecticut, or its legislators, administrators, fans and alumni, that pursuing a future in a power football conference is chasing fool's gold. They will not be able to gain entry into the B1G, or the ACC or the Big 12 - not today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, not ever. They don't have the credentials or candidacy to get in.
Fact of the matter is that their football team is not prestigious enough, doesn't have enough fan support, doesn't bring a strong recruiting area and continues to struggle against other mediocre G5 football programs (Tulane, SMU, USF, UCF, etc.). They honestly think that playing Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor and TCU will bring them more success?
Their main recruiting pitch to other conferences is that they bring the New York market. Well, guess what? Notre Dame brings more of the New York market than UConn does (and apparently so does Rutgers and other B1G and ACC schools). My hope is that they, eventually, make the right choice and cease their pursuit (like so many other schools have had in history) of FBS/D1 football. It will only bring their fans pain and misery every time expansion comes up again.
-
There are several reasons why it's not on campus.
1) They did not have a place on campus.
2) The state was paying and wanted it downtown Hartford and there really wasn't a place there either. The Rent is only 2 miles from downtown.
3) UTC / Pratt & Whitney basically gave the land for nothing to the state significantly reducing the cost to build a stadium.
4) The stadium lead to full development including commercial and office of the neighborhood (still in progress) providing jobs.
5) When they built the Big East wasn't imploding.
Most of the reasons listed above were politically driven. There is plenty of farm land around the campus. They could have gotten it done if they were creative.
-
The scary prospect about this whole situation is that if/when UConn gets left behind yet again (2003-2005 w/ the ACC, 2010-2012 w/ the ACC, and now 2016 w/ the Big 12), it still will not convince Connecticut, or its legislators, administrators, fans and alumni, that pursuing a future in a power football conference is chasing fool's gold. They will not be able to gain entry into the B1G, or the ACC or the Big 12 - not today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, not ever. They don't have the credentials or candidacy to get in.
Fact of the matter is that their football team is not prestigious enough, doesn't have enough fan support, doesn't bring a strong recruiting area and continues to struggle against other mediocre G5 football programs (Tulane, SMU, USF, UCF, etc.). They honestly think that playing Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor and TCU will bring them more success?
Their main recruiting pitch to other conferences is that they bring the New York market. Well, guess what? Notre Dame brings more of the New York market than UConn does (and apparently so does Rutgers and other B1G and ACC schools). My hope is that they, eventually, make the right choice and cease their pursuit (like so many other schools have had in history) of FBS/D1 football. It will only bring their fans pain and misery every time expansion comes up again.
I actually think UConn eventually finds its way into the ACC. I just don't know what the ACC will look like when they get there.
The ACC and B12 won't likely expand to 16 until the B1G and SEC do so. The B1G and SEC won't expand by taking AAC teams, they'll expand by poaching from the ACC and B12. And both of those conferences have set up some pretty impressive barriers for teams looking for greener pastures. I don't think the GoR is as ironclad as people make it out to be, but it should deter expansion for awhile. This could be the last boat out of the AAC for a while.
-
I actually think UConn eventually finds its way into the ACC. I just don't know what the ACC will look like when they get there.
The ACC and B12 won't likely expand to 16 until the B1G and SEC do so. The B1G and SEC won't expand by taking AAC teams, they'll expand by poaching from the ACC and B12. And both of those conferences have set up some pretty impressive barriers for teams looking for greener pastures. I don't think the GoR is as ironclad as people make it out to be, but it should deter expansion for awhile. This could be the last boat out of the AAC for a while.
U Conn is an excellent fit for the ACC and that conference is where they truly want to be and should be. The two senators from Kentucky pulled a lot of strings behind the scenes to get Louisville in the ACC ahead of them.
I see the Big Ten poaching from the Big 12 with the big prize there being Oklahoma and Kansas, which will round out their Western Division and give them two legendary schools one in football and one in basketball. It will also renew the Oklahoma Nebraska rivalry which was great.
-
There are several reasons why it's not on campus.
1) They did not have a place on campus.
2) The state was paying and wanted it downtown Hartford and there really wasn't a place there either. The Rent is only 2 miles from downtown.
3) UTC / Pratt & Whitney basically gave the land for nothing to the state significantly reducing the cost to build a stadium.
4) The stadium lead to full development including commercial and office of the neighborhood (still in progress) providing jobs.
5) When they built the Big East wasn't imploding.
Correct if I'm wrong but also ...
6) The Huskies football stadium replaced what would have been the Patriots new stadium after they used Hartford as leverage to get their new digs in Foxboro?
7) After the Whalers left town Hartford wanted to get a new professional team, but since no one wanted to move there, they thought that big time college football was the next best thing?
-
U Conn is an excellent fit for the ACC and that conference is where they truly want to be and should be. The two senators from Kentucky pulled a lot of strings behind the scenes to get Louisville in the ACC ahead of them.
I see the Big Ten poaching from the Big 12 with the big prize there being Oklahoma and Kansas, which will round out their Western Division and give them two legendary schools one in football and one in basketball. It will also renew the Oklahoma Nebraska rivalry which was great.
Oklahoma isn't leaving an affiliation with Texas. The state is too important to them football, student and alumni wise.
After the B12 decides what to do, I think major conference reshuffling is done for the time being.
-
UCONN will never get into the ACC as long as Florida State and Clemson are there. Their football is just too weak to benefit football schools, and then there's the whole Boston College thing from 2004.
Bottom line, too many ACC schools don't want or think they need UConn.
-
Miami has the same problem. Always build your stadium on campus.
Agreed...when the school has a choice. The U of Miami isn't the primary tenant in its stadium like UConn is. The primary tenant (and priority) has always been the Dolphins, and all the lobbying in the world wouldn't have influenced them from building the stadium where they felt it would be best for the Dolphins.
-
UCONN will never get into the ACC as long as Florida State and Clemson are there. Their football is just too weak to benefit football schools, and then there's the whole Boston College thing from 2004.
Bottom line, too many ACC schools don't want or think they need UConn.
I agree with the last part... but if it were a financially positive move, I don't think that FSU or Clemson would really care about whether they had to play UCONN in football or not; it's not like UCONN is worse than Duke (or how bad UNC would be if they had to send their players to actual classes).
-
Agreed...when the school has a choice. The U of Miami isn't the primary tenant in its stadium like UConn is. The primary tenant (and priority) has always been the Dolphins, and all the lobbying in the world wouldn't have influenced them from building the stadium where they felt it would be best for the Dolphins.
Obviously the U can't move their current stadium. My point was that if financially possible, they would benefit more from an on campus stadium.
-
I think UConn is right where the ACC wants them. Geographically, they're a poor fit for the Big 12 or Pac-12 as an all-sports school, and even for football it's quite a distance. Academically, the Big 10 would never consider them. Football-wise, the SEC wouldn't bother with them. The ONLY P5 conference they make sense for is the ACC. Now sure, maybe the Big 12 takes them as a football only school, but considering what a pain WVU is for non-revenue, I can't see them pushing even further out for all athletics.
The only conference that will take UConn is the ACC, which means that if the Big 10 or SEC raid the ACC's closet again, they have at least one fallback option to keep them afloat. Have to imagine that lessens the stress on the ACC leaders a bit.
-
Correct if I'm wrong but also ...
6) The Huskies football stadium replaced what would have been the Patriots new stadium after they used Hartford as leverage to get their new digs in Foxboro?
7) After the Whalers left town Hartford wanted to get a new professional team, but since no one wanted to move there, they thought that big time college football was the next best thing?
Yes.
-
I agree with the last part... but if it were a financially positive move, I don't think that FSU or Clemson would really care about whether they had to play UCONN in football or not; it's not like UCONN is worse than Duke (or how bad UNC would be if they had to send their players to actual classes).
UConn is a lot worse than Duke these days.
-
UConn is a lot worse than Duke these days.
There's really no comparison between UConn and Duke.
As a university, Duke has an endowment of $7 billion. UConn's is less than 1/10 of that at $437 million. (Marquette's is over $500 million, by the way.)
When it comes to men's basketball, the difference is almost as great. True, UConn has won 4 men's national championships to 5 for Duke. But the Huskies have missed 2 of the last 6 NCAA tournaments. Duke has made 20 straight. And Duke has made an incredible 16 Final Fours versus 5 for UConn.
Looking at the program overall, the Huskies are more likely to become Memphis in the next 5-10 years than to challenge Duke for another title.
-
I was referring to UCONN's football program. In twelve years at FBS, it's been to six bowl games. Duke has been to six bowl games in the last 55 years.
Maybe Duke has turned things around for good, but it's hard to say that UCONN would be a greater drag on ACC football than Duke has been over the last century.
-
I was referring to UCONN's football program. In twelve years at FBS, it's been to six bowl games. Duke has been to six bowl games in the last 55 years.
Maybe Duke has turned things around for good, but it's hard to say that UCONN would be a greater drag on ACC football than Duke has been over the last century.
No conference brings in new football programs thinking they'd be worse than all but one of the current conference programs.
-
I was referring to UCONN's football program. In twelve years at FBS, it's been to six bowl games. Duke has been to six bowl games in the last 55 years.
Maybe Duke has turned things around for good, but it's hard to say that UCONN would be a greater drag on ACC football than Duke has been over the last century.
Yes, Duke's football past has been totally pathetic. But they've been competitive in the ACC (.500 conference record or better) the past 3 seasons, including winning their division a couple years ago. The ACC's a lot tougher level of competition than the AAC — which, in my opinion, is still riding on the former standing of the Big East when it comes to bowl game invites.
If I were the commissioner of some hypothetical conference looking to expand and had my choice between Duke football and UConn football, I'd go with Duke every time.
-
No conference brings in new football programs thinking they'd be better than all but one of the current conference programs.
No argument here. My point was that if the money were to flow positive with UCONN in the ACC, nobody in the ACC is going to balk because of how bad UCONN football is.
-
No argument here. My point was that if the money were to flow positive with UCONN in the ACC, nobody in the ACC is going to balk because of how bad UCONN football is.
Yep. See the B10 and Rutgers and Maryland.
-
The more I think about it, the more UConn's aspirations to be a "great university" seem delusional — or at the very least, conceited.
Every single school in the ACC has a larger endowment than UConn, most by a factor of two or more. The same holds true for the Big 12. In fact, according to the latest figures I could find, more than half the schools in the Big East have larger endowments than UConn: Creighton, DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, St. John's and Villanova.
Somehow UConn still insists it belongs with the big boys. Granted, endowment is only one measure of a university's stature and success. But it sure seems like football should be the least of their worries.
-
All of this public posturing and political swaying will all be for naught. The Big 12 has all of the data, figures, and research it needs to make a decision - and I would guess that they have their list ready to go. If fans/alumni think that one powerpoint, one presentation, or one brochure (like UConn is trying to do) is going to flip a switch with the Big 12 to extend them an invitation, then they are sorely mistaken. The publicity for the G5 schools is really for their fans, students and alumni (in an attempt that they will be treated as a legitimate candidate, and in order to boost interest and donations - "See? We were so close! We need to raise prices and ask for more money to get over the hump."
-
Yep. See the B10 and Rutgers and Maryland.
The problem is that UCONN isn't going to even be a break even school for any of the conferences. Not enough of a market draw in football.
-
The problem is that UCONN isn't going to even be a break even school for any of the conferences. Not enough of a market draw in football.
No, but when someone poaches an ACC team, they'll be an acceptable replacement.
-
No, but when someone poaches an ACC team, they'll be an acceptable replacement.
Good point.
-
Right, which is why I think UCONN will be fine languishing in the AAC for the time being, even if it is a few years. Eventually, the Big 10 will poach another 2 teams from the ACC. At the point, UCONN will be one of the few decent options left for the ACC to reload.
They will get to the ACC eventually, although it will be a weakened ACC lacking 2 of its more valuable schools, perhaps North Carolina or Virginia, who will have fled to the Big 10 by then. At that point, UCONN would make sense for the ACC.
I'd take UCONN into the Big East, I just don't think it is going to happen.
-
The SEC and B1G will both add two more schools in the future. My guess is that all 4 will come from the same conference, either the ACC or the B12. My money right now would be on the ACC but we will see. What will be interesting is if the B12 is then able to attract 2 ACC programs. That would be six programs gone and all of the sudden the ACC looks like the AAC.
There are other factors too that might greatly change the college sports landscape. UAB already dropped football but got cold feet. Idaho is going FCS. Eastern Michigan, Hawaii, and New Mexico State are all considering FCS. Some schools are giving up on the dream of football money. Probably a while (if ever) before any P5 schools reach that point but the thought is out there now. The Big East is perfectly positioned in the basketball only world to have their pick of schools who want to get out of the football chase.
-
I would like to see how any ACC team gets around the grant of rights when the B1G come calling.
-
Houston doesn't make sense to me. Why take another school in Texas when you already have 4? There are way more Texas, Baylor, TCU, and Tech fans in Houston than there are Cougar fans.
BYU is solid though.
Houston, a recent Tier One School designate, spurred the Big 12 to this action. After a 13-1 season and beating Fla State in a New Years Bowl, UH doubled down with generous contracts etc shooting for another New years bowl this year. Its the most aggressive non Power 5 program in the country about wanting to join the power 5.
To that end, just a few days before all the Big 12 expansion announcements, a local report (dont think it was noticed much nationally) had UH meeting with PAC 12 officials about joining. Not coincidentally B12 almost immediately announced an expansion study, and upped it to 4 teams. UT (who kept UH out of the original group joining B12) has already come out in favor of UH now joining.
With TAMU going to the SEC, Houstonians have a 2-3 hr drive before they get to any B12 venue. The B12 needs to be in Houston and UH will be one of the choices....yes there is the politicking needed with the northern schools' votes, but the northern Division isnt the political strength of this conference.
There is a timing issue due to AAC withdrawal issues and the phasing in of new Big12 members to full shares UH wont be B12 with full B12 shares until the end of this decade.
-
I would like to see how any ACC team gets around the grant of rights when the B1G come calling.
This, isn't it like a $50 million exit fee now?
-
What did Maryland pay?
-
A big plus in Houston's favor is simply the enormity of Texas. With more than 27 million people, the state's population is larger than Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa, Louisiana, Missouri and Oklahoma combined. There's plenty of room for Houston in the Big 12.
In fact, from 1976 to 1996, Houston's football program belonged to the same athletic conference as 7 other Texas schools (Baylor, Rice, SMU, Texas, Texas A&M, TCU and Texas Tech) as part of the Southwest Conference.
-
What did Maryland pay?
Maryland was before the grant of media rights.
Guys (and gals)... what the ACC did with their media rights is essentially bulletproof. The whole driver behind conference expansion is the ability to add content (i.e. games to broadcast on the cable network). So all of the ACC schools essentially signed away their home media rights to the ACC, meaning that if UNC left to join the B?G, all of their home games would still belong to the ACC Network (or whoever the ACC contracts with). In short, the ACC completely cock-blocked their members from the siren song of the SEC or B?G through 2027.
Nobody is being poached from the ACC for another decade. And by then, the relegation of football to "stepchild" status will probably be in swinging across the the P5.
-
This about sums up UConn, Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis and all of the AAC schools:
(http://memecrunch.com/meme/RI30/mista-mista-get-me-outta-here/image.png)
-
Maryland was before the grant of media rights.
Guys (and gals)... what the ACC did with their media rights is essentially bulletproof. The whole driver behind conference expansion is the ability to add content (i.e. games to broadcast on the cable network). So all of the ACC schools essentially signed away their home media rights to the ACC, meaning that if UNC left to join the B?G, all of their home games would still belong to the ACC Network (or whoever the ACC contracts with). In short, the ACC completely cock-blocked their members from the siren song of the SEC or B?G through 2027.
Nobody is being poached from the ACC for another decade. And by then, the relegation of football to "stepchild" status will probably be in swinging across the the P5.
I get that. But people smarter than me have told me that a GoR just makes poaching delayed and difficult. Not impossible. I do agree that the B12 expanding is the last football driven expansion for awhile, but I don't know that there won't be more before the GoR expires in 2036
-
I get that. But people smarter than me have told me that a GoR just makes poaching delayed and difficult. Not impossible. I do agree that the B12 expanding is the last football driven expansion for awhile, but I don't know that there won't be more before the GoR expires in 2036
Put it this way, the B?G or SEC could always purchase the media rights for the team they poach from the ACC. Considering the ACC gets to name their price, you're absolutely correct... it would be difficult but not impossible.
Unless the price is:
https://www.youtube.com/e/cf7uJDhVZIE
-
I agree it's possible. But if a conference wants to poach a team from the ACC, it had better REALLY want that team.
-
Maryland was before the grant of media rights.
Guys (and gals)... what the ACC did with their media rights is essentially bulletproof. The whole driver behind conference expansion is the ability to add content (i.e. games to broadcast on the cable network). So all of the ACC schools essentially signed away their home media rights to the ACC, meaning that if UNC left to join the B?G, all of their home games would still belong to the ACC Network (or whoever the ACC contracts with). In short, the ACC completely cock-blocked their members from the siren song of the SEC or B?G through 2027.
Nobody is being poached from the ACC for another decade. And by then, the relegation of football to "stepchild" status will probably be in swinging across the the P5.
The ACC put a lot of effort into making the media rights deal happen with Florida State. Florida State is fully committed and believes the ACC is the best place for them now. They are the football crown jewel and as long as they keep renewing the media rights deal the league will stay in tact.
-
Multiple reports on Twitter are claiming that the Big 12 will be inviting BYU, Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis within the next two weeks.
UConn fans are less than pleased.
-
Multiple reports on Twitter are claiming that the Big 12 will be inviting BYU, Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis within the next two weeks.
UConn fans are less than pleased.
This is in line with what I expected. I really thought they would only go to 12 for now (BYU and Cincinnati), and then add Memphis and another to get to 14 later. I had thought Texas still had a veto out on Houston, so was expecting them to be out. Houstonwarrior's great insight though makes this all make a lot of sense.
With Houston driving the expansion, it was more logical to go to 14 right away. BYU and Cincinnati were obvious choices, so with them...you would have been stuck at the undesirable 13. Geographically and the Fedex connection makes Memphis the best choice for 14. They have the most potential to grow as a football program, because of resources and now it is sounding like the Big12 connection only makes them more likely to grow.
UCONN, as expected is out. They really should drop football. The longterm move is to go to the P4 instead of P5. The only way UCONN is getting into the ACC is if teams are poached and the P4 is created.
At that point, UCONN is still a second tier football conference.
-
Multiple reports on Twitter are claiming that the Big 12 will be inviting BYU, Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis within the next two weeks.
UConn fans are less than pleased.
So, the American is pretty much UConn, Temple, and SMU? I guess USF and UCF. Man, that really leaves UConn out in the cold. From a basketball perspective, which is still their bell cow, that pretty much drops them to mid-major status. Maybe 2-3 bids per year and not even a top-10 league anymore? How the mighty are falling...
-
So, the American is pretty much UConn, Temple, and SMU? I guess USF and UCF. Man, that really leaves UConn out in the cold. From a basketball perspective, which is still their bell cow, that pretty much drops them to mid-major status. Maybe 2-3 bids per year and not even a top-10 league anymore? How the mighty are falling...
Dont forget ECU and Tulane....
-
The ACC put a lot of effort into making the media rights deal happen with Florida State. Florida State is fully committed and believes the ACC is the best place for them now. They are the football crown jewel and as long as they keep renewing the media rights deal the league will stay in tact.
And if they received an invite from the B1G or SEC they would be gone in a heartbeat.
-
I would like to once again say that if the AAC does, in fact, lose Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis, thereby crippling the conference in basketball and cementing UConn's prestigious basketball program's future in doubt, I would want the Big East to hold off on officially inviting UConn back for non-football sports until UConn officially drops or de-emphasizes its football program. We would be in a position of negotiating power and strength, and would not need to make a special partnership/arrangement with them in order to re-join the Big East. Force them to remove football, and they never again become a threat to leave the conference.
At that point, for UConn, it's either that or join the MAC as a full-member or the Atlantic-10. The options are very limited. I have a hunch that, playing Tulane, East Carolina, Tulsa, SMU, UCF and USF as conference staples is not long-term (nor is playing independents Army, UMass, Idaho and New Mexico State) regularly.
-
BYU insider board reporting it as well...
http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=16208156 (http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=16208156)
-
BYU insider board reporting it as well...
http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=16208156 (http://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=16208156)
That's great. The BYU & Utah Twitter pretty much says "we told you this wasn't happening, and that was correct, but now it is, and we're still correct."
-
And if they received an invite from the B1G or SEC they would be gone in a heartbeat.
That is incorrect. FSU took all that into consideration when they granted the media rights which cemented their position in the ACC for a long time. The Big 10 or SEC are not going to dilute their earnings to take in a school that can't bring any revenue to the table.
-
That is incorrect. FSU took all that into consideration when they granted the media rights which cemented their position in the ACC for a long time. The Big 10 or SEC are not going to dilute their earnings to take in a school that can't bring any revenue to the table.
Florida State was given the choice between the SEC and the ACC back in early 90s. They chose the ACC for short term, football related reasons. It was a poor choice in the long run. I have no doubt they would make a different decision if they could go back in time. The only reason the ACC is the best place for FSU is because they have no other options.
-
That is incorrect. FSU took all that into consideration when they granted the media rights which cemented their position in the ACC for a long time. The Big 10 or SEC are not going to dilute their earnings to take in a school that can't bring any revenue to the table.
You seem to think that FSU had a choice. There is no invite for them right now. There was no other option for them but to go along with the ACC. If the SEC or B1G came calling, that would be it.
That being said, I don't think the B1G or the SEC is interested in FSU. It's a terrible school with a great but dirty football program. I think when the B1G and SEC come, FSU will be stuck in the ACC. If they ended up anywhere it would be the B12 but the ACC had to be raised first.
-
Florida Sate isn't a "terrible" school unless you think that schools like Iowa and Nebraska are "terrible" too.
-
Houston, a recent Tier One School designate, spurred the Big 12 to this action. After a 13-1 season and beating Fla State in a New Years Bowl, UH doubled down with generous contracts etc shooting for another New years bowl this year. Its the most aggressive non Power 5 program in the country about wanting to join the power 5.
To that end, just a few days before all the Big 12 expansion announcements, a local report (dont think it was noticed much nationally) had UH meeting with PAC 12 officials about joining. Not coincidentally B12 almost immediately announced an expansion study, and upped it to 4 teams. UT (who kept UH out of the original group joining B12) has already come out in favor of UH now joining.
With TAMU going to the SEC, Houstonians have a 2-3 hr drive before they get to any B12 venue. The B12 needs to be in Houston and UH will be one of the choices....yes there is the politicking needed with the northern schools' votes, but the northern Division isnt the political strength of this conference.
There is a timing issue due to AAC withdrawal issues and the phasing in of new Big12 members to full shares UH wont be B12 with full B12 shares until the end of this decade.
And their one loss was from UConn.
-
That being said, I don't think the B1G or the SEC is interested in FSU. It's a terrible school with a great but dirty football program.
This is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my entire life... your implication that the B1G and SEC wouldn't want a terrible school with a great but dirty football program is tantamount to a bunch of klansmen telling a skinhead to go pound sand.
-
Florida Sate isn't a "terrible" school unless you think that schools like Iowa and Nebraska are "terrible" too.
Yes, there really are not many "terrible" schools in the US at any level. Its more about how schools make wink and look the other way relative to athletics.
-
Yes, there really are not many "terrible" schools in the US at any level.
Tell that to the investors who were long on CECO five years ago.
-
Tell that to the investors who were long on CECO five years ago.
Re-read my post. Did not say there were no "terrible" schools. ;)
-
This is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my entire life... your implication that the B1G and SEC wouldn't want a terrible school with a great but dirty football program is tantamount to a bunch of klansmen telling a skinhead to go pound sand.
It's not. The implication is that the B1G and SEC wouldn't take them when they could take Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, or Miami instead. All are more appealing to them than Florida State. An argument could even be made for North Carolina State over Florida State.
-
It's not. The implication is that the B1G and SEC wouldn't take them when they could take Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, or Miami instead. All are more appealing to them than Florida State. An argument could even be made for North Carolina State over Florida State.
My comment was not an indictment of the implication you were making.
-
I would like to once again say that if the AAC does, in fact, lose Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis, thereby crippling the conference in basketball and cementing UConn's prestigious basketball program's future in doubt, I would want the Big East to hold off on officially inviting UConn back for non-football sports until UConn officially drops or de-emphasizes its football program. We would be in a position of negotiating power and strength, and would not need to make a special partnership/arrangement with them in order to re-join the Big East. Force them to remove football, and they never again become a threat to leave the conference.
At that point, for UConn, it's either that or join the MAC as a full-member or the Atlantic-10. The options are very limited. I have a hunch that, playing Tulane, East Carolina, Tulsa, SMU, UCF and USF as conference staples is not long-term (nor is playing independents Army, UMass, Idaho and New Mexico State) regularly.
They could always park their football somewhere like the MAC. At least then they would be competing against other relatively local schools that might push fan involvement.
-
They could always park their football somewhere like the MAC. At least then they would be competing against other relatively local schools that might push fan involvement.
I just looked at a map of the American Conference. If Cincinnati is gone, the only other northeast school in the American is Temple.
So let me throw this out there: UConn and Temple BOTH park football in the MAC and send everything else to the Big East. If you're the MAC do you turn down two schools for football-only (even though neither is a huge name)? If you're the Big East do you turn down this pair, even though Temple and Nova share the same city?
-
I just looked at a map of the American Conference. If Cincinnati is gone, the only other northeast school in the American is Temple.
So let me throw this out there: UConn and Temple BOTH park football in the MAC and send everything else to the Big East. If you're the MAC do you turn down two schools for football-only (even though neither is a huge name)? If you're the Big East do you turn down this pair, even though Temple and Nova share the same city?
Works for me ... if the Big East is going to expand at all, that is. I'm fine staying at 10 unless Notre Dame joins on.
-
The MAC will not take football-only members after the UCF, Temple and UMass fiascos over the past 15 years. They'll only accept full members moving forward (hence why the essentially kicked out UMass a while back).
UConn and/or Temple will not be football-only members of the MAC, and they certainly aren't parking their non-football sports there either (not just due to money, but also due to exposure and TV deals).
When the Big 12 announces it's adding BYU, Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis in the next week or so, UConn will be be faced with the following options:
1.) Remain in the American, with schools like Tulane, SMU, Tulsa, UCF, USF, ECU and Temple and hope for the best (possible invite in 10+ years by the ACC - which is still a long shot).
2.) Move football to independence, and an apply for a non-football membership in either the Big East or Atlantic-10 (still not convinced the Big East would toss a lifeline their way without assurances they could not bolt for another power conference).
3.) Drop football altogether, and move all Olympic sports to Big East or Atlantic-10 (this would be a very tough financial and emotional decision to make, but, long-term, is probably best for their athletic department).
Other than that, there really is no alternative. The power conferences will be locked-in for the next 10+ years due to the Grant of Rights for each conference. There will not be intra-power conference poaching (like TAMU to SEC, Nebraska to B1G, Colorado to PAC-12, etc.), due to exit fees and TV deals. UConn will not be getting an invitation by the B1G or ACC during that time. Even if the Big 12 implodes if/when Texas/Oklahoma bolt, the money they receive will not be "power conference" money. They are locked out, officially.
-
Any possibility that the AAC decides to disband for all non-football sports and maintain themselves as a football league only.
UCONN, SMU, and Temple would probably be on board with that hoping that they can all lobby for the BE.
Then the AAC poaches Charlotte, Marshall, UAB, La Tech to fill the football league.
-
Any possibility that the AAC decides to disband for all non-football sports and maintain themselves as a football league only.
UCONN, SMU, and Temple would probably be on board with that hoping that they can all lobby for the BE.
Then the AAC poaches Charlotte, Marshall, UAB, La Tech to fill the football league.
That's a good point, maybe the AAC lets them stay as football only, and they put everything else in the Big East. I'm OK with that.
-
Why would the AAC do that?
-
Why would the AAC do that?
If Memphis, Houston and Cincinnati all leave, the core of the conference, especially in football are all gone. They have few options.
UCONN, Temple and SMU are going to be looking to jump ship. Adding teams like UAB, Charlotte and La Tech for all sports isn't going to make them feel warm and fuzzy. Their athletic budgets are already losing in the $10-30M a year range.
Turing the conference into a football only conference would keep those teams in for football and wouldn't affect the TV contract much. Separating out the non-revenue sports into different leagues would save a bundle on travel costs. It may be the only way to save a conference.
-
If Memphis, Houston and Cincinnati all leave, the core of the conference, especially in football are all gone. They have few options.
UCONN, Temple and SMU are going to be looking to jump ship. Adding teams like UAB, Charlotte and La Tech for all sports isn't going to make them feel warm and fuzzy. Their athletic budgets are already losing in the $10-30M a year range.
Turing the conference into a football only conference would keep those teams in for football and wouldn't affect the TV contract much. Separating out the non-revenue sports into different leagues would save a bundle on travel costs. It may be the only way to save a conference.
In the short run the AAC is going to make some good money from this. They will get exit fees from their departing members as well as retain any NCAA units they have accumulated. The AAC football tv contract is horrible so this is real money divided among the 8 remaining schools.
Going forward , the league still has a somewhat weak tie in to the New Years day bowls, so their is some value in keeping the league intact at least for football purposes. From the standpoint of U Conn the remaining basketball league will be weak enough that they are almost guaranteed an NCAA bid automatic bid each year.
Then U Conn will just sit and have to wait for the ACC expansion which will eventually come.
My sources at ESPN who are involved in the ACC Network tell me it is just a question of time for U Conn .
-
If Memphis, Houston and Cincinnati all leave, the core of the conference, especially in football are all gone. They have few options.
UCONN, Temple and SMU are going to be looking to jump ship. Adding teams like UAB, Charlotte and La Tech for all sports isn't going to make them feel warm and fuzzy. Their athletic budgets are already losing in the $10-30M a year range.
Turing the conference into a football only conference would keep those teams in for football and wouldn't affect the TV contract much. Separating out the non-revenue sports into different leagues would save a bundle on travel costs. It may be the only way to save a conference.
But they can't expand as a football only conference. UAB et al play in conferences that currently sponsor football. Why would CUSA let them leave for football and keep the other sports there?
The AAC has to stick as all sports because it dies otherwise.
-
What a difficult call for UConn. They have the best women's basketball program in the country. They have one of the best mens programs. They've made a large investment in football. Yet, the quality of the conference that they are in regularly declines due to members getting poached, but they always seem to be left behind. All while they continue to lose big money every year on football holding out for that G5 invite. If they don't get into a G5 conference soon, the basketball programs will both inevitably decline due to quality of competition issues, and rebuilding the programs will be much more difficult than keeping them at the top would have been.
If the ACC really wants them at any point they would be smart to add them ASAP before the quality of UConn's brand deteriorates.
-
A more likely scenario. Uconn and Temple go to the BE for all sports and retain AAC membership as football affiliates. (Similar to Hawaii's relationship with the Mountain West and having its other sports in the Big West.). The AAC can then add members for all sports that are more geographically a match.
I don't see Uconn to the ACC as inevitable in any way. Maybe 20 years down the road, but would they even be the top candidate now if the ACC needed someone? I'm not sure about that.
And finally, the foresight of the basketball schools to break away from that AAC mess should be noted. And the schools that were supposedly reluctant are likely breathing a sigh of relief.
-
I'm not in the purist camp that would deny Big East membership to any school with FBS football, so I'd be good with Temple and UConn joining. Two out of twelve members having FBS football won't create a problem with football being the main consideration for many league decisions which was the problem for the basketball only schools in the old Big East.
Nor would the idea that we would be allowing in members who might some day leave cause me constant anxiety, as long as such a move isn't inevitable at the time that they join. UConn would do a lot to build up the Big East's brand in both mens and womens basketball. I'm sure Fox would see their addition as a big plus.
It's a low risk to take for a league known to possess a rock solid core membership of ten. The relative pluses or minuses of adding Temple, I'll leave to those more knowledgeable.
Already being a member of the Big East could make it easier for a school like UConn or Temple to make the decision down the road to downgrade their football programs to FCS when the realities of not being able to compete with the big boys financially on the pittance of TV revenue for football that a league like the AAC can get becomes apparent.
-
Villanova will block any expansion that includes Temple. They are never coming for basketball.
-
A more likely scenario. Uconn and Temple go to the BE for all sports and retain AAC membership as football affiliates. (Similar to Hawaii's relationship with the Mountain West and having its other sports in the Big West.). The AAC can then add members for all sports that are more geographically a match.
I don't see Uconn to the ACC as inevitable in any way. Maybe 20 years down the road, but would they even be the top candidate now if the ACC needed someone? I'm not sure about that.
And finally, the foresight of the basketball schools to break away from that AAC mess should be noted. And the schools that were supposedly reluctant are likely breathing a sigh of relief.
This is essentially the same thing I said, except to rebrand a new conference for all sports and leave AAC football only to avoid the awkwardness of partial members. Oh and I was talking about the CUSA teams coming for all sports.
-
I just don't see UConn back in the Big East under any circumstances, even if the AAC completely dissolves.
I try to think about this like a university president, not like a fan. As a state school, UConn has different priorities than all the current schools of the Big East. It's simply a poor institutional fit. UConn also wouldn't expand the Big East into new markets (St. John's already covers NY) or recruiting territory. Then there's the whole football issue, which administrators have shown zero signs of changing their minds about.
True, UConn has a great basketball program and history with the Big East. But St. Louis (private university in a Top 20 market) looks like a far better bet to me.
After that, I'm not sure there's another strong contender. Dayton's okay, but doesn't add much. Davidson (a well-regarded private school located in the Charlotte, NC market) could even be a possibility. But unless there's a clear economic benefit to expansion, the Big East might just stay where it's at for the foreseeable future.
-
I just don't see UConn back in the Big East under any circumstances, even if the AAC completely dissolves.
I try to think about this like a university president, not like a fan. As a state school, UConn has different priorities than all the current schools of the Big East. It's simply a poor institutional fit. UConn also wouldn't expand the Big East into new markets (St. John's already covers NY) or recruiting territory. Then there's the whole football issue, which administrators have shown zero signs of changing their minds about.
True, UConn has a great basketball program and history with the Big East. But St. Louis (private university in a Top 20 market) looks like a far better bet to me.
After that, I'm not sure there's another strong contender. Dayton's okay, but doesn't add much. Davidson (a well-regarded private school located in the Charlotte, NC market) could even be a possibility. But unless there's a clear economic benefit to expansion, the Big East might just stay where it's at for the foreseeable future.
Are you suggesting that St. Louis, a perennial Atlantic 10 cellar dweller, would add more to the Big East than UConn, a bona fide basketball blue blood?
-
Are you suggesting that St. Louis, a perennial Atlantic 10 cellar dweller, would add more to the Big East than UConn, a bona fide basketball blue blood?
I miss Marquette playing UConn. Having the Huskies on the conference schedule would be good for any basketball program in the Big East.
But fans, coaches and athletic directors aren't the ones making the decision for expansion. It's the university presidents. (When the C7 broke away, some ADs were left completely out of the loop.) And while I don't pretend to know for certain what the factors are in their decision-making process, I can go by what they've said publicly and what they've done.
Expansion is obviously driven by many factors. Geography, TV markets, broadcast rights, recruiting, academics, program history, and fan base are all important considerations. But the Big East presidents have talked repeatedly about the shared focus of the conference. Look at everything that schools in the conference have in common. Private schools, basketball-centric, based in major metro markets. As a state school that's spent the past 20 years betting its future on football, UConn simply isn't a good fit.
I'm not part of the expansion discussions. I have zero inside knowledge. Just an opinion based on what I've seen, heard and read over the past 2-1/2 years.
-
Are you suggesting that St. Louis, a perennial Atlantic 10 cellar dweller, would add more to the Big East than UConn, a bona fide basketball blue blood?
UConn is infinitely more valuable in basketball than Saint Louis. However, Saint Louis, as a like-minded institution, as an urban city market, as an athletic program that doesn't sponsor FBS football and places basketball first, is a better fit for the current configuration of the Big East.
Every move in realignment from 2010-2013 was based on institutional and market fit for the new conference. Colorado and Utah, both large state universities, brought not only strong academics, but large athletic budgets (namely football) and new markets for the PAC-10 to gain from. The SEC added Texas A&M and Missouri for the same reasons. The B1G added Rutgers, Maryland and Nebraska for the same reasons. The Big East re-formed as a a conference based on Private/Catholic universities in major cities without FBS football and a clear focus on basketball. UConn doesn't fit that (they now spend more on football alone than all other programs combined).
The Big East does not need UConn. If they were added, they would be counting down the days until they got to leave (again). They don't want to be here, period (check out the Boneyard - they will tell you). It would be a monumental mismatch of epic proportions. The ten schools we have all want to be here and are committed to making the Big East the best conference it can be. UConn would never do that.
Let UConn get left behind in the American/Conference USA 2.0 and watch their athletic programs (namely basketball) weaken over time by playing Tulane, East Carolina, UCF, and USF. They need the Big East a whole lot more than the Big East needing them.
-
University Presidents do care about institutional fit. Its about #27 on their list of things they care about when considering conference realignment. If people think that the Big East would hesitate for a second to add UConn because they are a public school they are kidding themselves. And if they think St. Louis would get added because they are a private school they are kidding themselves.
When president's use the phrase "like minded institution" it does not mean public or private. It is code for "willing to invest a lot of money in their athletics' program." UConn is much more like minded than St. Louis will ever be.
-
One more thought regarding St. Louis.
They clearly have a lot to offer when it comes to institutional fit (private Jesuit university), TV market and academics. I'm confident they were considered by the C7 alongside Creighton, Butler and Xavier.
The difference seems to the university's commitment to the basketball program. St. Louis has made just 3 NCAA tournament appearances since the 2000-01 season — versus 9, 10, and 14 for Creighton, Butler and Xavier, respectively.
With a better record on the court, St. Louis might have even gotten the nod over Creighton. Until that changes, I don't see the Big East extending an invite.
-
University Presidents do care about institutional fit. Its about #27 on their list of things they care about when considering conference realignment. If people think that the Big East would hesitate for a second to add UConn because they are a public school they are kidding themselves. And if they think St. Louis would get added because they are a private school they are kidding themselves.
When president's use the phrase "like minded institution" it does not mean public or private. It is code for "willing to invest a lot of money in their athletics' program." UConn is much more like minded than St. Louis will ever be.
I get what you are saying, TAMU. However, there's a reason why VCU - which was coming off a Final Four and three consecutive NCAA tournaments, one of the hottest young coaches in the country (Shaka Smart), a major renovation of their basketball arena ($25 million), a strong market (Richmond), and no desire to add FBS football - was not added in 2013 to the Big East, and that is because they are a public university.
There's also a reason they extended their footprint all the way to Omaha, Nebraska. Creighton, unlike VCU - and has never gotten to a Final Four, and has not been to a Sweet 16 in over 40 years - is a like-minded institution. Institution is a very big deal to university presidents. Conferences are basically elite clubs where current members choose who gets into the clubhouse.
Institution is the very reason why Wichita State will never be considered for the Big East (despite basketball success and budget), and why schools like Saint Louis, Dayton, Richmond and Davidson will all continue to be mentioned as potential expansion candidates for the Big East in the future.
-
And if they think St. Louis would get added because they are a private school they are kidding themselves.
I only suggested that St. Louis might be one of the best prospects for expansion, based on a number of factors (institutional fit being just one of them). But obviously St. Louis falls short in one or more key criteria in the minds of the Big East university presidents — otherwise they'd be part of the conference today.
-
I get what you are saying, TAMU. However, there's a reason why VCU - which was coming off a Final Four and three consecutive NCAA tournaments, one of the hottest young coaches in the country (Shaka Smart), a major renovation of their basketball arena ($25 million), a strong market (Richmond), and no desire to add FBS football - was not added in 2013 to the Big East, and that is because they are a public university.
There's also a reason they extended their footprint all the way to Omaha, Nebraska. Creighton, unlike VCU - and has never gotten to a Final Four, and has not been to a Sweet 16 in over 40 years - is a like-minded institution. Institution is a very big deal to university presidents. Conferences are basically elite clubs where current members choose who gets into the clubhouse.
Institution is the very reason why Wichita State will never be considered for the Big East (despite basketball success and budget), and why schools like Saint Louis, Dayton, Richmond and Davidson will all continue to be mentioned as potential expansion candidates for the Big East in the future.
It made perfect sense for the BE to choose the schools it decided upon when it formed. Xavier and Butler were no brainers. Creighton was a bit of an outlier but still a good fit.
That does not mean that when expansion time comes, those types of schools would be the best options. Look at the B10. Outside of Northwestern, they are made up of large, public universities. But that didn't stop them from inviting Notre Dame despite the lack of AAU membership.
-
I get what you are saying, TAMU. However, there's a reason why VCU - which was coming off a Final Four and three consecutive NCAA tournaments, one of the hottest young coaches in the country (Shaka Smart), a major renovation of their basketball arena ($25 million), a strong market (Richmond), and no desire to add FBS football - was not added in 2013 to the Big East, and that is because they are a public university.
There's also a reason they extended their footprint all the way to Omaha, Nebraska. Creighton, unlike VCU - and has never gotten to a Final Four, and has not been to a Sweet 16 in over 40 years - is a like-minded institution. Institution is a very big deal to university presidents. Conferences are basically elite clubs where current members choose who gets into the clubhouse.
Institution is the very reason why Wichita State will never be considered for the Big East (despite basketball success and budget), and why schools like Saint Louis, Dayton, Richmond and Davidson will all continue to be mentioned as potential expansion candidates for the Big East in the future.
VCU was out because of Georgetown. Georgetown did and always will veto VCU. Same with Nova/Temple.
Creighton was chosen, because MU and Georgetown made the push for them. VCU was not excluded because of being a public school. Richmond will also never get in for the same reason.
UCONN, no one would veto.
-
UConn is infinitely more valuable in basketball than Saint Louis. However, Saint Louis, as a like-minded institution, as an urban city market, as an athletic program that doesn't sponsor FBS football and places basketball first, is a better fit for the current configuration of the Big East.
Every move in realignment from 2010-2013 was based on institutional and market fit for the new conference. Colorado and Utah, both large state universities, brought not only strong academics, but large athletic budgets (namely football) and new markets for the PAC-10 to gain from. The SEC added Texas A&M and Missouri for the same reasons. The B1G added Rutgers, Maryland and Nebraska for the same reasons. The Big East re-formed as a a conference based on Private/Catholic universities in major cities without FBS football and a clear focus on basketball. UConn doesn't fit that (they now spend more on football alone than all other programs combined).
The Big East does not need UConn. If they were added, they would be counting down the days until they got to leave (again). They don't want to be here, period (check out the Boneyard - they will tell you). It would be a monumental mismatch of epic proportions. The ten schools we have all want to be here and are committed to making the Big East the best conference it can be. UConn would never do that.
Let UConn get left behind in the American/Conference USA 2.0 and watch their athletic programs (namely basketball) weaken over time by playing Tulane, East Carolina, UCF, and USF. They need the Big East a whole lot more than the Big East needing them.
These are all excellent points and I would also add when the C7 broke away, U Conn drove an extremely hard bargain and made a ton of money. There is absolutely no reason and no support by University Presidents for the Big East to show them any mercy now. If U Conn wants back it would have to be on our terms. They would need to execute an agreement to stay for a minimum of 20 years with a mid 8 figure liquidated damages clause in the event they tried to leave and they need to agree to move football to FCS during that entire time period.
-
It made perfect sense for the BE to choose the schools it decided upon when it formed. Xavier and Butler were no brainers. Creighton was a bit of an outlier but still a good fit.
That does not mean that when expansion time comes, those types of schools would be the best options. Look at the B10. Outside of Northwestern, they are made up of large, public universities. But that didn't stop them from inviting Notre Dame despite the lack of AAU membership.
Northwestern was a founding member of the B1G, and Notre Dame is an exception due to their national football brand.
-
From UConn AD David Benedict:
"UConn wants to compete at the highest level on a national basis. That is where we have been and that is where we want to remain. The reality is that the best way to accomplish that is to be a member of a Power Five conference. All of UConn Nation, from everyone at the school to fans and alumni, have to always be working toward that."
"At this point in time the Power Five conferences certainly are looked to as the most competitive conferences. They derive the most money from their multi-media agreements, their television agreements. And therefore, certainly we aspire to be in those conferences and compete at that level."
"This is a Power Five program all day, every day."
From UConn president Susan Herbst:
"We are strong, no matter our league. But if the Power Five is looking for a traditional flagship university, grounded in the liberal arts and research, UConn Nation will be an exuberant and loyal partner. I don't believe that there is another candidate for a Power Five league with our first-rate academic standing, international reach and outstanding faculty."
Realistic or not, UConn's administration believes that it belongs in a Power Five conference alongside schools like Texas, Michigan and Virginia — "flagship" state universities, not Villanova or Georgetown. UConn has no desire to rejoin the Big East. UConn's commitment to football is part of a strategy outlined in 1997 and endorsed by the governor, trustees and students. UConn is not about to change course, even if they aren't part of the Big 12's expansion plans. They're all in.
If there's any evidence contrary to the above, I'd like to see it.
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-uconn-big-12-jacobs-column-0724-20160723-column.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/17126636/uconn-huskies-ad-preparing-pitch-waiting-hear-big-12-expansion
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/benedict-says-uconn-s-caliber-of-play-at-power-five-level-030116
http://advance.uconn.edu/1997/971020/10209702.htm
-
I get what you are saying, TAMU. However, there's a reason why VCU - which was coming off a Final Four and three consecutive NCAA tournaments, one of the hottest young coaches in the country (Shaka Smart), a major renovation of their basketball arena ($25 million), a strong market (Richmond), and no desire to add FBS football - was not added in 2013 to the Big East, and that is because they are a public university.
There's also a reason they extended their footprint all the way to Omaha, Nebraska. Creighton, unlike VCU - and has never gotten to a Final Four, and has not been to a Sweet 16 in over 40 years - is a like-minded institution. Institution is a very big deal to university presidents. Conferences are basically elite clubs where current members choose who gets into the clubhouse.
Institution is the very reason why Wichita State will never be considered for the Big East (despite basketball success and budget), and why schools like Saint Louis, Dayton, Richmond and Davidson will all continue to be mentioned as potential expansion candidates for the Big East in the future.
As others have said, VCU not making the cut had nothing to do with it being a public school. It was vetoed early on and repeatedly by Georgetown who didn't want the competition in their backyard. Plus, Xavier and Butler were obvious adds and Creighton brought a ton to table.
I think people are forgetting two things:
1. Realignment is ALWAYS about $$$$, nothing else matters.
2. UConn is basketball royalty.
UConn would be a no brainer addition. They are a top 8 all time basketball program. If we want to be the premier basketball league again, we need to add programs in that category. We currently have zero. The Big East, University Presidents, and Fox all want to expand and add programs that move the needle. UConn moves the needle in a way that no other realistic expansion option does.
All that being said, don't see it happening yet. UConn is still set on chasing the dream of football money. But that is there decision not ours. The door to the Big East is wide open if UConn ever decides to walk through it.
-
Northwestern was a founding member of the B1G, and Notre Dame is an exception due to their national football brand.
You are making my point. UConn is pretty much a "national basketball brand."
-
All that being said, don't see it happening yet. UConn is still set on chasing the dream of football money.
This is all that matters right now.
UConn didn't give up on football in 2005 when Miami, Boston College and Virginia Tech left the Big East for the ACC. Or in 2011 when Pittsburgh, Syracuse and West Virginia left. Or in 2012 when Rutgers left. Or in 2013 when the C7 left.
Each of those moves dimmed UConn's prospects for joining the ranks of college football's elite. Yet it made no difference. UConn believes in football. UConn believes they'll follow the football rainbow to a big pot of gold. Everybody from the university president on down believes because they can't accept the alternative — that UConn doesn't belong with the big boys as a "flagship" institution.
We can speculate, wish and hope about the possibility of UConn coming back to the Big East. But I see no reason to believe UConn will give up on football if the Big 12 doesn't extend an invite — or if the AAC falls apart.
-
We can speculate, wish and hope about the possibility of UConn coming back to the Big East. But I see no reason to believe UConn will give up on football if the Big 12 doesn't extend an invite — or if the AAC falls apart.
To be fair, the prospect of losing Houston, Cincinnati, and Memphis would pretty much be the AAC falling apart.
-
To be fair, the prospect of losing Houston, Cincinnati, and Memphis would pretty much be the AAC falling apart.
Agreed. If that happens, I'll bet it doesn't change UConn's outlook in the slightest.
-
To be fair, the prospect of losing Houston, Cincinnati, and Memphis would pretty much be the AAC falling apart.
I don't really agree with that. There are a number of solid schools in there that still make it a viable conference. If they add the likes of UAB, MTSU and Charlotte, it would still be the strongest non-BCS conference outside of the Mountain West.
-
I don't really agree with that. There are a number of solid schools in there that still make it a viable conference. If they add the likes of UAB, MTSU and Charlotte, it would still be the strongest non-BCS conference outside of the Mountain West.
I had to look up who MTSU was and I bet you 99% of sports fans would have too. That doesn't make them a solid school.
-
The AAC will have its choice of decent college football schools. Conference USA (Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Southern Mississippi, etc.) is the most likely to be targeted. You could probably make a case for MAC schools like Bowling Green or Toledo — if you're just looking at strength in football.
This follows a familiar pattern going back to the early days of the Big East football conference: 1) schools with better football programs leave for greener pastures in the Power Five; 2) those schools are replaced by others with slightly lesser football programs and often mediocre to pathetic basketball programs; 3) the overall strength and significance of the conference is diminished; 4) the process is inevitably repeated, often within a year or two.
This may keep the AAC alive as a conference. But it doesn't get UConn any closer to joining the Power Five. If anything, it illustrates how little UConn football matters on a national level.
-
The AAC will have its choice of decent college football schools. Conference USA (Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Southern Mississippi, etc.) is the most likely to be targeted. You could probably make a case for MAC schools like Bowling Green or Toledo — if you're just looking at strength in football.
This follows a familiar pattern going back to the early days of the Big East football conference: 1) schools with better football programs leave for greener pastures in the Power Five; 2) those schools are replaced by others with slightly lesser football programs and often mediocre to pathetic basketball programs; 3) the overall strength and significance of the conference is diminished; 4) the process is inevitably repeated, often within a year or two.
This may keep the AAC alive as a conference. But it doesn't get UConn any closer to joining the Power Five. If anything, it illustrates how little UConn football matters on a national level.
Do you know anything about Southern Mississippi, they are the dregs of Conference USA and will continue to be. They are lucky they didn't get a death penalty.
-
I had to look up who MTSU was and I bet you 99% of sports fans would have too. That doesn't make them a solid school.
In a quick glance of CUSA schools, they stood out. But I guess I pay attention to more than their Q scores. I mean, MTSU just upset Michigan State in the NCAA tournament this year.
But Marcus had some other good suggestions. Bowling Green, etc.
-
The AAC will have its choice of decent college football schools. Conference USA (Western Kentucky, Middle Tennessee, Southern Mississippi, etc.) is the most likely to be targeted. You could probably make a case for MAC schools like Bowling Green or Toledo — if you're just looking at strength in football.
This follows a familiar pattern going back to the early days of the Big East football conference: 1) schools with better football programs leave for greener pastures in the Power Five; 2) those schools are replaced by others with slightly lesser football programs and often mediocre to pathetic basketball programs; 3) the overall strength and significance of the conference is diminished; 4) the process is inevitably repeated, often within a year or two.
This may keep the AAC alive as a conference. But it doesn't get UConn any closer to joining the Power Five. If anything, it illustrates how little UConn football matters on a national level.
Exactly. Which is why I find MUFINY suggestion that their admittance to the ACC is "just a matter of time" to be highly suspect.
-
Do you know anything about Southern Mississippi, they are the dregs of Conference USA and will continue to be. They are lucky they didn't get a death penalty.
I don't follow college football or care much about it — outside of how it impacts my favorite sport (college basketball) and team (Marquette).
Southern Miss was only an example. I know next to nothing about the school, apart from their conference affiliation and nickname. But I wouldn't get too hung up on which teams the AAC will add before the Big 12 has made any expansion announcement. Given their history, the university presidents might not be able to agree on a single candidate.
-
Exactly. Which is why I find MUFINY suggestion that their admittance to the ACC is "just a matter of time" to be highly suspect.
Don't shoot the messenger . I was just reporting what ESPN told me.
-
Don't shoot the messenger . I was just reporting what ESPN told me.
There's a difference between that which ESPN "reports" and that on which ESPN "opines."
-
I'm seeing some "TV partner" stories out there today. They have no interest in paying more for Memphis or Houston.
-
I'm seeing some "TV partner" stories out there today. They have no interest in paying more for Memphis or Houston.
It's all negotiation. Don't pay too much attention to it.
-
My feelings about UConn, who sold out their basketball excellence in the pursuit of mediocre football, accelerating the demise of the Superconference Big East, now complaining about having to play basketball games against East Carolina and UCF, and begging to be admitted back into the Big East.
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/62381298.jpg)
-
My feelings about UConn, who sold out their basketball excellence in the pursuit of mediocre football, accelerating the demise of the Superconference Big East, now complaining about having to play basketball games against East Carolina and UCF, and begging to be admitted back into the Big East.
THEY ARE????
-
It amazes me that some here still believe that UConn wants to come back to the Big East. Top comments from the Boneyard this morning:
"I understand the nostalgia for some people, especially those who limit themselves to the MBB board. But, how many memorable games against Xavier, DePaul, Providence, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, St. Johns, do you really remember? Villanova and Georgetown are the only real rivals still in that league and we don't need to be in it to play them. It's also not like the BE is a northeast bus league anymore either. Do you guys know where Creighton, Depaul, and Marquette are located?"
"Yeah I know EXACTLY where those leech schools are located. As for your comment memorable games..I remember games against St Johns, PC many times...and Marquette a few times, Fact of the matter is as a fan I want absolutely NOTHING to do with those schools any more except maybe a OOC game in hoops, and dealing with PC in HE!"
UConn, their fans, alumni, administration and students want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the Big East. Exactly why would we want to invite a school that has zero interest in being a part of the conference?
-
It amazes me that some here still believe that UConn wants to come back to the Big East. Top comments from the Boneyard this morning:
UConn, their fans, alumni, administration and students want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the Big East. Exactly why would we want to invite a school that has zero interest in being a part of the conference?
I think you are right that UCONN and their fans are focused on P5 and not BE, but pulling opinions from the boneyard to support your position is like claiming statements in the comments section of JS Online is a good representation of what people in WI think.
-
It amazes me that some here still believe that UConn wants to come back to the Big East. Top comments from the Boneyard this morning:
"I understand the nostalgia for some people, especially those who limit themselves to the MBB board. But, how many memorable games against Xavier, DePaul, Providence, Marquette, Butler, Seton Hall, Creighton, St. Johns, do you really remember? Villanova and Georgetown are the only real rivals still in that league and we don't need to be in it to play them. It's also not like the BE is a northeast bus league anymore either. Do you guys know where Creighton, Depaul, and Marquette are located?"
"Yeah I know EXACTLY where those leech schools are located. As for your comment memorable games..I remember games against St Johns, PC many times...and Marquette a few times, Fact of the matter is as a fan I want absolutely NOTHING to do with those schools any more except maybe a OOC game in hoops, and dealing with PC in HE!"
UConn, their fans, alumni, administration and students want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the Big East. Exactly why would we want to invite a school that has zero interest in being a part of the conference?
Boneyard is about the last place you should go for rational opinions on UConn. Just like Scoop is one the last places you should go for rational opinions on Marquette.
There is a chunk of the fan base that would love to be back in the BEast but many aren't quite ready to give up on football. The administration might not be as against the idea as you think. But they are still holding out hope for that P5 invite.
-
I am just glad we don't have to worry about the football musical chairs any more.
-
I am just glad we don't have to worry about the football musical chairs any more.
You said it. Thank You, FS1!
-
You said it. Thank You, FS1!
Yup all MU and the rest of the Big East schools have to do is stand pat and sit pretty. I love UCONN from a basketball perspective, but the BE doesn't need them in the slightest. Were raking in the cash from the TV contract and we have the defending national champions, with both Nova and X poised to have another great season.
I used to be in the camp that said take UCONN no matter what, but after their comments from fans and their AD they can go ahead and rot in the AAC.
-
Yup all MU and the rest of the Big East schools have to do is stand pat and sit pretty. I love UCONN from a basketball perspective, but the BE doesn't need them in the slightest. Were raking in the cash from the TV contract and we have the defending national champions, with both Nova and X poised to have another great season.
I used to be in the camp that said take UCONN no matter what, but after their comments from fans and their AD they can go ahead and rot in the AAC.
We do need them. Not now, but by 2026 (I think that's the year). BEast basketball ratings have been extremely underwhelming. If we don't give Fox more bang for their buck, no way we get anywhere close to this kind of money when we renew our contract. Best things we can do are keep winning (not totally in our control) and add programs that move the needle. UConn moves the needle more than any other program we could reasonably hope for.
-
We do need them. Not now, but by 2026 (I think that's the year). BEast basketball ratings have been extremely underwhelming. If we don't give Fox more bang for their buck, no way we get anywhere close to this kind of money when we renew our contract. Best things we can do are keep winning (not totally in our control) and add programs that move the needle. UConn moves the needle more than any other program we could reasonably hope for.
Don't necessarily disagree with your line of thinking, but I'm not sure the underwhelming ratings are because of the product being presented. UConn does move the needle so it wouldn't hurt certainly but I'm not sure how well FS1 has done to drive eyeballs to the product. They are in year 3 of their new enterprise and have some relatively established shows/platforms, I think this is the year we see whether the Big East sinks or swims from a ratings perspective.
-
Don't necessarily disagree with your line of thinking, but I'm not sure the underwhelming ratings are because of the product being presented. UConn does move the needle so it wouldn't hurt certainly but I'm not sure how well FS1 has done to drive eyeballs to the product. They are in year 3 of their new enterprise and have some relatively established shows/platforms, I think this is the year we see whether the Big East sinks or swims from a ratings perspective.
With MU taking a 28-2 record into the Big East Tournament, FS1 ratings will be soaring, my friend!
-
With MU taking a 28-2 record into the Big East Tournament, FS1 ratings will be soaring, my friend!
2 losses?!? Pessimist.
-
We do need them. Not now, but by 2026 (I think that's the year). BEast basketball ratings have been extremely underwhelming. If we don't give Fox more bang for their buck, no way we get anywhere close to this kind of money when we renew our contract. Best things we can do are keep winning (not totally in our control) and add programs that move the needle. UConn moves the needle more than any other program we could reasonably hope for.
There's no question that UConn's on-court success over the past 20 years puts the program in rare company. I'm just not sure how much value that translates into for the Big East in terms of viewership — either in their home market, or nationwide — which is ultimately what drives rights deals.
UConn was 40th in the country in attendance last season, averaging 10,413 per game. That's solid, roughly equivalent to Providence (44th at 9,703) or Georgetown (51st at 8,879). But it's well behind Creighton (10th at 15,941) and Marquette (21st at 13,308) and light years behind the kind of support that Syracuse (2nd at 21,592) or Louisville (3rd at 20,879) draw.
Of course, that's only one measure — one that's of limited value. Duke barely cracks the Top 50 due to playing in a stadium with a capacity under 10,000, but nobody doubts their credentials.
What about market size? Apart from Creighton, UConn plays in a smaller metro area (Hartford ranks 47th) than every school in the Big East. I can't speak to their TV ratings, but I think it's a stretch to say that UConn reaches the NY market (which St. John's truly does).
If I had other data, I'd cite it. But I don't see UConn as a national brand in the same way as other schools. When the Syracuse Orange came to the Bradley Center, you knew it. Their fans were a sizable and noticeable presence, far more than when the Huskies came to town. It's possible that even with four national titles, UConn today is a lot more like Gonzaga — a big fish in a small regional pond that most fans only pay attention to at tournament time — than a true premier program like Duke or Kentucky.
Finally, if UConn was such an unbelievable athletic program, why doesn't any other conference want them? They have earned a reputation for repeated recruiting infractions and scandals — just the kind of attention most schools want to avoid.
Fox Sports made the 12-year, $500 million deal with the Big East knowing that UConn wasn't part of the package. That's a long-term, big-time commitment. Would the Huskies be a good addition to the Big East's basketball brand? Certainly. I'm just not sure they move the needle to the degree you think. Right now, the future looks a lot brighter for the Big East than it does for UConn.
-
There's no question that UConn's on-court success over the past 20 years puts the program in rare company. I'm just not sure how much value that translates into for the Big East in terms of viewership — either in their home market, or nationwide — which is ultimately what drives rights deals.
UConn was 40th in the country in attendance last season, averaging 10,413 per game. That's solid, roughly equivalent to Providence (44th at 9,703) or Georgetown (51st at 8,879). But it's well behind Creighton (10th at 15,941) and Marquette (21st at 13,308) and light years behind the kind of support that Syracuse (2nd at 21,592) or Louisville (3rd at 20,879) draw.
Of course, that's only one measure — one that's of limited value. Duke barely cracks the Top 50 due to playing in a stadium with a capacity under 10,000, but nobody doubts their credentials.
What about market size? Apart from Creighton, UConn plays in a smaller metro area (Hartford ranks 47th) than every school in the Big East. I can't speak to their TV ratings, but I think it's a stretch to say that UConn reaches the NY market (which St. John's truly does).
If I had other data, I'd cite it. But I don't see UConn as a national brand in the same way as other schools. When the Syracuse Orange came to the Bradley Center, you knew it. Their fans were a sizable and noticeable presence, far more than when the Huskies came to town. It's possible that even with four national titles, UConn today is a lot more like Gonzaga — a big fish in a small regional pond that most fans only pay attention to at tournament time — than a true premier program like Duke or Kentucky.
Finally, if UConn was such an unbelievable athletic program, why doesn't any other conference want them? They have earned a reputation for repeated recruiting infractions and scandals — just the kind of attention most schools want to avoid.
Fox Sports made the 12-year, $500 million deal with the Big East knowing that UConn wasn't part of the package. That's a long-term, big-time commitment. Would the Huskies be a good addition to the Big East's basketball brand? Certainly. I'm just not sure they move the needle to the degree you think. Right now, the future looks a lot brighter for the Big East than it does for UConn.
The Atlantic Ten would take them in a heartbeat. G5 athletic conference invites are based on what a school's football program can do for the conference's TV package. All other sports are small potatoes compared to football and are given little weight when making those decisions. The only conferences in a position to make any invite based upon a school's prowess in basketball is the Big East (and Atlantic Ten) because it has no TV package for footbal while men's basketball TV rights are its bread and butter and desert.
-
There's no question that UConn's on-court success over the past 20 years puts the program in rare company. I'm just not sure how much value that translates into for the Big East in terms of viewership — either in their home market, or nationwide — which is ultimately what drives rights deals.
UConn was 40th in the country in attendance last season, averaging 10,413 per game. That's solid, roughly equivalent to Providence (44th at 9,703) or Georgetown (51st at 8,879). But it's well behind Creighton (10th at 15,941) and Marquette (21st at 13,308) and light years behind the kind of support that Syracuse (2nd at 21,592) or Louisville (3rd at 20,879) draw.
Of course, that's only one measure — one that's of limited value. Duke barely cracks the Top 50 due to playing in a stadium with a capacity under 10,000, but nobody doubts their credentials.
What about market size? Apart from Creighton, UConn plays in a smaller metro area (Hartford ranks 47th) than every school in the Big East. I can't speak to their TV ratings, but I think it's a stretch to say that UConn reaches the NY market (which St. John's truly does).
If I had other data, I'd cite it. But I don't see UConn as a national brand in the same way as other schools. When the Syracuse Orange came to the Bradley Center, you knew it. Their fans were a sizable and noticeable presence, far more than when the Huskies came to town. It's possible that even with four national titles, UConn today is a lot more like Gonzaga — a big fish in a small regional pond that most fans only pay attention to at tournament time — than a true premier program like Duke or Kentucky.
Finally, if UConn was such an unbelievable athletic program, why doesn't any other conference want them? They have earned a reputation for repeated recruiting infractions and scandals — just the kind of attention most schools want to avoid.
Fox Sports made the 12-year, $500 million deal with the Big East knowing that UConn wasn't part of the package. That's a long-term, big-time commitment. Would the Huskies be a good addition to the Big East's basketball brand? Certainly. I'm just not sure they move the needle to the degree you think. Right now, the future looks a lot brighter for the Big East than it does for UConn.
If people don't tune in for UConn, then the Big East should never expand. There is no better option.
You quote UConn's average attendance of 10,413 per game as a problem. But their home stadium has a capacity of 10,167....so they averaged over a sellout while playing in a sh*tty conference. They would do even better in a real conference.
UConn hasn't made other conferences because their football program is a joke. That don't matter to us.
12 years isn't as long of a commitment as you think. 2026 will be here before you know it. And if Fox could go back in time, I think they would offer the Big East significantly less. We robbed them blind.
UConn absolutely moves the needle. Definitely more than any other option. And DEFINITELY more than options like Dayton and SLU.
-
UConn absolutely moves the needle. Definitely more than any other option. And DEFINITELY more than options like Dayton and SLU.
No disagreement here. Then it comes back to two big issues: 1) UConn's long-term strategy of building a major football program and joining a Power 5 conference; and 2) What other school would join alongside UConn.
As long as UConn is committed to football, I don't see them as a realistic option for Big East expansion. Twenty years after stepping up to Division 1A, their commitment is stronger than ever. Even after the departures of Miami, Boston College, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Louisville and Syracuse. Even after the Big East football division imploded. That's the only reason I suggested a school like St. Louis is a better prospect. (Not a great prospect, mind you, just more likely than 0%.)
To the second point, I'd be surprised if the Big East expands by just 1 team. They'll either stay at 10, or expand to 12. The thing is, there isn't a can't-miss candidate out there right now. It could be that St. Louis or another school significantly improves its basketball program by 2026. But the conference won't expand just to expand. It has to make sense financially, and in terms of long-term fit.
-
1. Don't matter to us. It does keep uconn from joining so I understand your argument about them not being realistic. But I wouldn't trust that their commitment is stronger than ever. New leadership has introduced some doubt.
2. I think the preference would be 12 but 11 could work
-
But I wouldn't trust that their commitment is stronger than ever. New leadership has introduced some doubt.
I'm curious who exactly you're referring to. UConn's new AD David Benedict comes straight from Auburn, one of the most football-focused universities in the country. He's the son of a football coach and played football at Arizona St.
University president Susan Herbst came to UConn from Georgia, another football-obsessed school. When she hired Benedict, she said, "David understands football, being in the Big Ten and SEC and what it takes to be better and be a winning program. That's attractive...He understands what makes a great program. He believes as all of us do that we're at the level of the Power Five as far as sheer winning and championships."
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-uconn-athletic-director-david-benedict-0301-20160229-story.html
I think the preference would be 12 but 11 could work.
Yes, it could work. The Big Ten was at 11 teams for 20 years. But I'm not sure UConn is the same sure-thing to the Big East today that Penn St. was to the Big Ten in 1990 — i.e. national football brand, AAU school, state institution, top market, great geographic fit. Also, Penn St. joined the Big Ten as a full member with no special exemptions (not for all sports except football, for example).
As I've said before, I have no inside knowledge into expansion discussions. It's possible that UConn is a leading candidate. But I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible. Based on my understanding of the key criteria and current situation at UConn, I don't see the Huskies joining the Big East anytime soon.
-
They match key criteria perfectly for us. We don't match theirs currently. Priorities probably don't change for them now but they're closer than they were a great ago.
-
If UConn could join the Big East while parking their football in the AAC or even the Big 12, I'd love to have them. Them becoming all sports members of a G5 conference is a long enough shot that I would like to bet against it, particularly when betting with house money. Raids on the old Big East meant that other football schools had to be found to replace those leaving with the result that schools with poor men's basketball programs were being added by necessity for football. That's not the case now. Should UConn join and later leave, the Big East just goes back to the status quo (while keeping UConn's NCAA shares for a while), that's why I say its playing with house money, there would be no need to replace them.
-
Regardless of what happens with the Big 12 expansion discussions, I see no conceivable scenario where UConn is still a member of the American in 10 years. They are either invited to a power conference, or they are a member of the Big East/Atlantic-10 for Olympic sports. Continuing to play Tulsa, Tulane, SMU East Carolina, UCF, USF, Houston and Memphis is just not feasible or sustainable long term.
If the Big 12 doesn't extend them an invitation, they are stuck for a long time. The B1G won't invite them, not only because they are not an AAU school but also because their football is atrocious and they already have one terrible football program in the Northeast in Rutgers. The ACC won't invite them because of political issues with Boston College, as well as their lack of success in football (which will cause Florida State and Clemson to avoid inviting them. There's also the big elephant in the room with Notre Dame. They (the ACC), much like the Old Big East, will continue to hold out hope that they relinquish independence and join as a full-member.
-
Regardless of what happens with the Big 12 expansion discussions, I see no conceivable scenario where UConn is still a member of the American in 10 years. They are either invited to a power conference, or they are a member of the Big East/Atlantic-10 for Olympic sports. Continuing to play Tulsa, Tulane, SMU East Carolina, UCF, USF, Houston and Memphis is just not feasible or sustrightble long term.
I'll take a bet on that.
-
I've seen several people post that the Atlantic 10 is an option for UConn if they park football and join another conference for all sports.
The Big East CANNOT let that happen. If UConn is going to leave the AAC and go to a non-power 5 league, it must be to the Big East. A conference that adds UConn to VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond, St. Bona, and St. Joes becomes a competitor to the Big East for tournament bids, tv eyeballs, and most importantly $$$$. If there are any hints that UConn might go to the A10, we need to snatch them up immediately.
That said, I don't think they're going anywhere...
-
I'm curious who exactly you're referring to. UConn's new AD David Benedict comes straight from Auburn, one of the most football-focused universities in the country. He's the son of a football coach and played football at Arizona St.
University president Susan Herbst came to UConn from Georgia, another football-obsessed school. When she hired Benedict, she said, "David understands football, being in the Big Ten and SEC and what it takes to be better and be a winning program. That's attractive...He understands what makes a great program. He believes as all of us do that we're at the level of the Power Five as far as sheer winning and championships."
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-huskies/hc-uconn-athletic-director-david-benedict-0301-20160229-story.html
Yes, it could work. The Big Ten was at 11 teams for 20 years. But I'm not sure UConn is the same sure-thing to the Big East today that Penn St. was to the Big Ten in 1990 — i.e. national football brand, AAU school, state institution, top market, great geographic fit. Also, Penn St. joined the Big Ten as a full member with no special exemptions (not for all sports except football, for example).
As I've said before, I have no inside knowledge into expansion discussions. It's possible that UConn is a leading candidate. But I'm trying to look at this as objectively as possible. Based on my understanding of the key criteria and current situation at UConn, I don't see the Huskies joining the Big East anytime soon.
Here's the most telling quote in the article you linked for me:
"The way the Connecticut budget is it's really important for us to generate revenues, be self-sufficient and successful and he understands it," Herbst said.
How do you meet that criteria and still build up your football program to the point that a power 5 conference would want it?
-
I've seen several people post that the Atlantic 10 is an option for UConn if they park football and join another conference for all sports.
The Big East CANNOT let that happen. If UConn is going to leave the AAC and go to a non-power 5 league, it must be to the Big East. A conference that adds UConn to VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond, St. Bona, and St. Joes becomes a competitor to the Big East for tournament bids, tv eyeballs, and most importantly $$$$. If there are any hints that UConn might go to the A10, we need to snatch them up immediately.
That said, I don't think they're going anywhere...
Why would UConn go to the A10? That makes no sense.
-
I've seen several people post that the Atlantic 10 is an option for UConn if they park football and join another conference for all sports.
The Big East CANNOT let that happen. If UConn is going to leave the AAC and go to a non-power 5 league, it must be to the Big East. A conference that adds UConn to VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond, St. Bona, and St. Joes becomes a competitor to the Big East for tournament bids, tv eyeballs, and most importantly $$$$. If there are any hints that UConn might go to the A10, we need to snatch them up immediately.
That said, I don't think they're going anywhere...
If UConn goes the non-football conference option for Olympic sports, I don't think that the big East would tell them to pound sand and go to the Atlantic 10. I believe that the Big East would be the prohibitive favorite from UConn's point of view, as well.
-
Why would UConn go to the A10? That makes no sense.
I agree, but people have said "Big East or A10" in previous posts. I think we can all agree that the Big East cannot let UConn go to the A10.
-
I agree, but people have said "Big East or A10" in previous posts. I think we can all agree that the Big East cannot let UConn go to the A10.
The only way, the ONLY way UConn would go to the A10 is if we truly didn't want them. Strictly from a financial perspective, there's no way UConn would play the pauper in the A10 when joining the Big East would be a financial upgrade from their all sports (football included) AAC deal.
-
I agree, but people have said "Big East or A10" in previous posts. I think we can all agree that the Big East cannot let UConn go to the A10.
People can be idiots. That's not happening.
-
The A-10's current broadcast deal (signed in 2012) is for $40 million and 8 years. That's $5 million a year split between 14 schools, or $357,143 per conference member.
The AAC's deal (signed in 2013) is for $126 million and 7 years. That's $18 million a year split between 12 schools, or $1.5 million per conference member.
The Big East's deal (signed in 2013) is for $500 million and 12 years. That's $41 million a year split between 10 schools, or $4.1 million per conference member.
I see no circumstance where UConn joins the A10, whether it's for all sports or everything except football. It makes zero economic sense. The AAC will survive — even if Cincinnati, Houston and Memphis leave. It would still be one of the best college football conferences outside the Power 5 (as sad as that seems). It would still be UConn's best home as long as their goal is building the football program and joining a P5 conference.
UConn doesn't care if it's damaging its basketball brand, because football is more important to them right now. Although the football program is losing money — to the tune of about $20 million a year — the potential long-term payoff of joining a P5 conference is far bigger than the revenue basketball generates. That payoff is what's blinding university trustees and administrators, whether it's realistic or not.
Here's a great article that explores how UConn got to this point, why they're doomed to fail, and why that doesn't matter:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/14/sports/basketball/football-drags-on-uconns-power-5-ambitions.html?_r=0
-
The AAC's television deal is puny compared to the P5, but is fairly sizable when compared to the other G5 conferences.
CUSA gets $200,000 per school.
MAC about $600,000
Sun Belt doesn't look like they get anything from national contracts.
Only the Mountain West makes more than the AAC. And at $1.6 million it isn't MUCH more.
-
Here's an interesting article questioning whether the Big 12 truly wants to expand. Instead, it suggests that the conference is merely putting pressure on its broadcast partners to sweeten their current deal.
http://newsok.com/article/5513165
-
I've seen several people post that the Atlantic 10 is an option for UConn if they park football and join another conference for all sports.
The Big East CANNOT let that happen. If UConn is going to leave the AAC and go to a non-power 5 league, it must be to the Big East. A conference that adds UConn to VCU, Dayton, SLU, Richmond, St. Bona, and St. Joes becomes a competitor to the Big East for tournament bids, tv eyeballs, and most importantly $$$$. If there are any hints that UConn might go to the A10, we need to snatch them up immediately.
That said, I don't think they're going anywhere...
While I agree that letting the A10 swoop UConn would be a mistake - the A10, even with UCONN, is still a long way away from the Big East. Solid conference, no doubt, but the Big East has 10 good to great basketball programs. The A10 would then have 3 or 4 good to great programs, 3 of 4 mediocre, and still a pile of crap.
-
DePaul is a good to great basketball program??
-
DePaul is a good to great basketball program??
Ok, I revise my statement to 9.
The point still stands.
-
KenPom ranked DePaul #184 last season.
That's not good, mind you. But it's not atrocious — close to middle of the pack for Division I college basketball. St. John's was worse at #222.
Every conference has its bottom dwellers. Check out Missouri in the SEC at #182. Washington State at #204 in the Pac 12. Boston College at #248 in the ACC. Or Rutgers and Minnesota in the Big 10, ranked at #291 (!) and #223, respectively.
The Big 12's TCU (#145) is slightly more respectable. Not by much, though.
-
So...I'm not sure if this is serious, but Brett McMurphy of ESPN tweeted out this list of SEVENTEEN candidates the Big 12 is targeting. Okay...deep breath...
Arkansas State ( :o ), Boise State, BYU, Cincinnati, Colorado State, UConn, East Carolina, Houston, Memphis, NIU, New Mexico, San Diego State, SMU, Temple, Tulane, UCF, USF.
This feels like the awkward, overly large high school recruit trimming his list from 29 to 17. Can't wait until they release the top 13! ;D
-
Arkansas State ( :o ), Boise State, BYU, Cincinnati, Colorado State, UConn, East Carolina, Houston, Memphis, NIU, New Mexico, San Diego State, SMU, Temple, Tulane, UCF, USF.
Sounds like some of these are just about expanding (or returning to) some TV markets. Arkansas State and Colorado State would get the Big XII back into Arkansas and Colorado (I think the latter is far more likely). New Mexico isn't a big market but it is adjacent to their footprint. The interesting one on here to me is San Diego State. Does SDSU draw many football eyeballs? Could it help with California recruiting?
Is that NIU Northern Illinois or someone else? Northern has a decent following in the burbs, and might be an interesting TV market play, but it certainly isn't at the level of some of these other schools (though they were in a BCS game not too long ago)
-
San Diego States ED just went to Mizzou I believe - pretty good testament to the success there to get an SEC gig, albeit one with turmoil.
-
It is incredibly ironic, but there is more unity in the AAC - one where each member is aligned within the conference by wanting to be in a power conference - than the Big 12, where no one can agree on 1) Whether the Big 12 expand 2) Who to expand with 3) Whether to stay in the Big 12 and build it as top conference or 4) bolt the conference and cement yourself within a different power conference.
Two points from that:
1. The current Big 12 is the Old Big East.
2. We should be thankful that we helped re-organize the Big East with like-minded institutions to insure our conference, our athletic programs and our schools will always be protected from schools (football) that don't have our best interests at heart.
-
Sounds like some of these are just about expanding (or returning to) some TV markets. Arkansas State and Colorado State would get the Big XII back into Arkansas and Colorado (I think the latter is far more likely). New Mexico isn't a big market but it is adjacent to their footprint. The interesting one on here to me is San Diego State. Does SDSU draw many football eyeballs? Could it help with California recruiting?
Is that NIU Northern Illinois or someone else? Northern has a decent following in the burbs, and might be an interesting TV market play, but it certainly isn't at the level of some of these other schools (though they were in a BCS game not too long ago)
SDSU is probably one of the most overlooked universities in all of D-I sports because they are (literally) tucked into a corner of the country where they live in the shadows of both USC and UCLA. From a football standpoint, they have a respectable history, facilities on par with any other BCS school, and would be a great addition to any conference... in fact, they're land grant, research, fully accredited, 30k+ enrollment, blah blah blah, but they're hamstrung geographically. The Pac-12 doesn't want them because you'd have three schools within the LA-SD megalopolis (i.e. you're not adding TV markets, competing for recruits, etc. -- which is why, other than the anomaly of the ACC, no other conference has more than two schools in such close proximity to one another), and they would be a no-brainer for the Big 12, if not for the fact that they're 2,500 miles from Morgantown. Though as some may recall, SDSU was going to join the Big East as football-only up until the C-7 announced their intentions, but I'm skeptical if such an option exists with the Big 12.
SDSU is a clear case of "build it and they will come"... go see how well Butler and Xavier have been fundraising and how much more interest their basketball program is receiving amongst alumni now that they're members of a major conference. Yes, even with two championship appearances in the last decade, Butler feels - as well they should - like they can be a perennial force on the national stage and in recruiting circles instead of merely the biggest fish in a small pond. Vaulting to a BCS conference would essentially do the same for SDSU... they've been awaiting their own inflection point for a long time.
-
Mark Blaudschun reported today that if the Big 12 expands without UConn, then UConn will not keep the status quo with the AAC and look to alternatives. He alludes to a reunion with the Big East for non-football sports.
-
Mark Blaudschun reported today that if the Big 12 expands without UConn, then UConn will not keep the status quo with the AAC and look to alternatives. He alludes to a reunion with the Big East for non-football sports.
Ajerseyguy. He has pretty good info on the Big East. He was reporting stuff on the C7 breakup early.
He can get a little "out there" at times though.
-
His insider is most likely Mike Tranghese, one of his close friends, former Big East conference commissioner and current UConn advisor/consultant on realignment.
-
The Pac-12 doesn't want [SDSU] because you'd have three schools within the LA-SD megalopolis (i.e. you're not adding TV markets, competing for recruits, etc. -- which is why, other than the anomaly of the ACC, no other conference has more than two schools in such close proximity to one another)
Emphasis added.
Good analysis, with one exception. It's approximately 120 miles as the crow flies from UCLA to San Diego State (about as far as from Chicago to Madison). There is actually another place where three or more major conference schools are that close together: the Big Ten.
72 miles from Purdue to Illinois
99 miles from Purdue to Indiana
112 miles from Illinois to Indiana
Los Angeles and San Diego are different media markets just like Chicago and Indianapolis are. The analysis is solid, but should probably be amended to say that no major conference (in its current form, at least) has EXPANDED to add a new school so close to multiple established members.
-
SDSU is probably one of the most overlooked universities in all of D-I sports because they are (literally) tucked into a corner of the country where they live in the shadows of both USC and UCLA. From a football standpoint, they have a respectable history, facilities on par with any other BCS school, and would be a great addition to any conference... in fact, they're land grant, research, fully accredited, 30k+ enrollment, blah blah blah, but they're hamstrung geographically. The Pac-12 doesn't want them because you'd have three schools within the LA-SD megalopolis (i.e. you're not adding TV markets, competing for recruits, etc. -- which is why, other than the anomaly of the ACC, no other conference has more than two schools in such close proximity to one another), and they would be a no-brainer for the Big 12, if not for the fact that they're 2,500 miles from Morgantown. Though as some may recall, SDSU was going to join the Big East as football-only up until the C-7 announced their intentions, but I'm skeptical if such an option exists with the Big 12.
SDSU is a clear case of "build it and they will come"... go see how well Butler and Xavier have been fundraising and how much more interest their basketball program is receiving amongst alumni now that they're members of a major conference. Yes, even with two championship appearances in the last decade, Butler feels - as well they should - like they can be a perennial force on the national stage and in recruiting circles instead of merely the biggest fish in a small pond. Vaulting to a BCS conference would essentially do the same for SDSU... they've been awaiting their own inflection point for a long time.
At this point that is what the Big12 is looking for. There are no teams available to be poached that would command sufficient media money to even break even on the addition. There are though some teams, like SDSU, that with the proper dedication to athletics, would have the ability to become a major player and a major draw.
General requirements: Large alumni base (eyeballs), large media market, Big donors (Need to build it for people to come).
Not as important: Current reputation and/or historical achievements.
-
Does San Diego State really meet that definition? I mean I guess they might be better than Memphis or Houston, but they don't really draw all that well. I don't think they're considered some sort of sleeping giant in the world of college athletics with some sort of huge, untapped potential.
To be, they are pretty much similar to the other schools under consideration.
-
Emphasis added.
Good analysis, with one exception. It's approximately 120 miles as the crow flies from UCLA to San Diego State (about as far as from Chicago to Madison). There is actually another place where three or more major conference schools are that close together: the Big Ten.
72 miles from Purdue to Illinois
99 miles from Purdue to Indiana
112 miles from Illinois to Indiana
Los Angeles and San Diego are different media markets just like Chicago and Indianapolis are. The analysis is solid, but should probably be amended to say that no major conference (in its current form, at least) has EXPANDED to add a new school so close to multiple established members.
W Lafayette, Champaign-Urbana, and Bloomington are not adjacent to one another. When I was speaking in terms of proximity, I was talking about adjacent media markets... actual distance is irrelevant, especially in SoCal. In fact, the triangle between all three would be barely large enough to house the entire LA media market.
-
Does San Diego State really meet that definition? I mean I guess they might be better than Memphis or Houston, but they don't really draw all that well. I don't think they're considered some sort of sleeping giant in the world of college athletics with some sort of huge, untapped potential.
To be, they are pretty much similar to the other schools under consideration.
Honestly, not sure if they meet that definition, just highlighting what the Big12 is looking for. I agree that they are similar to Memphis and Houston, with a bigger media market than Memphis and 50% larger enrollment and a substantially larger alumni base.
But that highlights the Big12's problem. No obvious options and a lot of research that needs to be done to determine who has the most potential to become a respected program. Frankly, UCONN is not it.