MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Herman Cain on May 26, 2016, 04:36:11 PM
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Here is a recent analysis of Vander Blue as relates to the Lakers Summer League.
http://asingleword.sportsblog.com/posts/18304507/lakers-summer-league-checklist--3-vander-blue.html
He had a great year in the D League.
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What grade is Gregory Crawford in?
Wow, that was, a poorly, written articall.
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Here is another story mostly about Nigel Hayes but makes reference to Vander .
http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/college/basketball/men/tom-oates-unless-nba-makes-him-a-promise-nigel-hayes/article_00722435-825a-5ec0-b585-77cccdf8c807.html
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What grade is Gregory Crawford in?
Wow, that was, a poorly, written articall.
Sarcasm key stuck on, nice ;)
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what does a guy have to do?? there has got to be a team(NBA) that could use him, i mean, come on man!!
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what does a guy have to do?? there has got to be a team(NBA) that could use him, i mean, come on man!!
Be able to shoot a jumper better than your average YMCA regular, to start.
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He really should go back overseas. He could make a mint over there. At best he is an end of the bench player in the NBA unless he completely does a 180 on his outside shooting.
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Odd too with that 87 percent free throw clip - did he not have a one handed jumper?
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Be able to shoot a jumper better than your average YMCA regular, to start.
ok, so what is a decent, or in your words, "better than your average ymca regular" jumper? shooting avg.?
he's shooting 44.5% and 35.7% from the 3. missed leading the d-league in scoring by 0.1
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ok, so what is a decent, or in your words, "better than your average ymca regular" jumper? shooting avg.?
he's shooting 44.5% and 35.7% from the 3. missed leading the d-league in scoring by 0.1
I'm not sure what you're ultimately suggesting here--is it that NBA teams are stonewalling Vander? Or that they're ignorant to his skills?
One of the beautiful things about sports is that unlike many industries, they're (mostly) a true meritocracy. If you can hack it in the NBA, you will find yourself on an NBA roster. Vander's been playing in the D-league and he's been to several NBA summer leagues/training camps. Teams have had a wealth of opportunities to evaluate him. So far, they've decided what he's bringing isn't enough.
Remember, having gaudy numbers in the D-league does not even remotely mean you can transfer that success to the NBA. They're so, so different. I hope Vander makes it in the NBA and gets to fulfill his dream for at least a few years. But if he doesn't, it won't be because no one gave him the chance.
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what does a guy have to do?? there has got to be a team(NBA) that could use him, i mean, come on man!!
Asking your daughter-in-law out has worked for some.
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Here is another story mostly about Nigel Hayes but makes reference to Vander .
http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/college/basketball/men/tom-oates-unless-nba-makes-him-a-promise-nigel-hayes/article_00722435-825a-5ec0-b585-77cccdf8c807.html
You should have given us a warning this was a Tom Oates article
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You should have given us a warning this was a Tom Oates article
Oates is right....Hayes should stay in, just as Vander should have.
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Oates is right....Hayes should stay in, just as Vander should have.
I agree, but at the same time I can't help but think Vander would be in the exact same place he is now even if he stays another year.
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I agree, but at the same time I can't help but think Vander would be in the exact same place he is now even if he stays another year.
There is a possibility if he stayed he would have been a late second round pick which may have given him slightly more opportunity in that a team would have been slightly more invested in his success.
Vander has a great attitude and keeps plugging away. I really respect that in him.
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Oates is right....Hayes should stay in, just as Vander should have.
Really Chicos?
We're certainly familiar with your exhausting position on Vander's early departure. You state it any chance you can.
Why? I have no idea.
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Really Chicos?
We're certainly familiar with your exhausting position on Vander's early departure. You state it any chance you can.
Why? I have no idea.
Are you new here?
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I think CBB does a search for "Vander" and responds to each post that he believes that it was a bad idea that he left school early.
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He's essentially a quadruple-A player, yes?
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NBA is fixed and run by the MAFIA. Hate the NBA game. Love College and H.S. Drinking Knob Creek or
Leinie's is more interesting.
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He's essentially a quadruple-A player, yes?
Great comparison. He's going to end up as a lifer in the D league with a few cups of coffee in the Association. He's a real Crash Davis
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NBA is fixed and run by the MAFIA. Hate the NBA game. Love College and H.S. Drinking Knob Creek or
Leinie's is more interesting.
You clearly engage drinking both. Often.
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NBA is fixed and run by the MAFIA. Hate the NBA game. Love College and H.S. Drinking Knob Creek or
Leinie's is more interesting.
Mr. Koenig?
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Odd too with that 87 percent free throw clip - did he not have a one handed jumper?
Every real basketball player has a one handed jump shot. Your other hand is the guide hand which shouldn't be in contact with the ball at the point of release.
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I'm not sure what you're ultimately suggesting here--is it that NBA teams are stonewalling Vander? Or that they're ignorant to his skills?
One of the beautiful things about sports is that unlike many industries, they're (mostly) a true meritocracy. If you can hack it in the NBA, you will find yourself on an NBA roster. Vander's been playing in the D-league and he's been to several NBA summer leagues/training camps. Teams have had a wealth of opportunities to evaluate him. So far, they've decided what he's bringing isn't enough.
Remember, having gaudy numbers in the D-league does not even remotely mean you can transfer that success to the NBA. They're so, so different. I hope Vander makes it in the NBA and gets to fulfill his dream for at least a few years. But if he doesn't, it won't be because no one gave him the chance.
i'm not really suggesting anything except that i believe he's shown that he's capable and then some in the d-league. i'm just another MU guy pulling for another MU guy to make it to the show, that's all. the brief cups of coffee he's had on the big stage were hardly enough for him to show his stuff. yes, i realize he's had many eyes on him and they obviously are not impressed enough to give him a full contract.
BUT, what does a guy have to do in the d-league to be worthy? average 30 ppg? 35? 8reb/game? 10? 2 turnovers/game, 3? assists? seriously, what is the magic number or intangible, or combination they look for? i'll guarantee you that there are probably quite a few guys in the NBA that vander would make them look silly one on one
fwiw, i wasn't a big fan of vanders coming out of h.s as one of his first comments were that he was robbed of the state player of the year award. it spoke volumes...
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It spoke that he was a young and immature kid. Like a lot of them are.
He continued to have similar problems as he entered college. A lot of them do.
He matured and became a leader by his junior year. He learned from his mistakes and grew. Just what college is supposed to do.
I have mentioned this before, but I have a family member that knew Vander pretty well in school and said that he was very nice but immature when he got to school. And that even after he grew and became a star as a junior, he would still see this family member across campus and go over to talk to him. Never "big timed" him. I have always pulled for him and will continue to do so.
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i'm not really suggesting anything except that i believe he's shown that he's capable and then some in the d-league. i'm just another MU guy pulling for another MU guy to make it to the show, that's all. the brief cups of coffee he's had on the big stage were hardly enough for him to show his stuff. yes, i realize he's had many eyes on him and they obviously are not impressed enough to give him a full contract.
BUT, what does a guy have to do in the d-league to be worthy? average 30 ppg? 35? 8reb/game? 10? 2 turnovers/game, 3? assists? seriously, what is the magic number or intangible, or combination they look for? i'll guarantee you that there are probably quite a few guys in the NBA that vander would make them look silly one on one
fwiw, i wasn't a big fan of vanders coming out of h.s as one of his first comments were that he was robbed of the state player of the year award. it spoke volumes...
Not get to the D League is what they have to do.
And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever. Basketball isn't played one on one. It's played with 8 other people on the court.
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Not get to the D League is what they have to do.
And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever. Basketball isn't played one on one. It's played with 8 other people on the court.
i'm sure you are a nice, thoughtful and wise fellow and all, but i am fully aware of how many guys are on the floor at one time. however, for you to say basketball isn't played one on one is partially correct. ever see the teams clear out and allow the one one one? i'm sure you've seen teams try to pick and roll to create mis-matches? i have. then they go ONE ON ONE. yes, i've also seen double and triple teaming.
the one on one of many ways, but is a very important one that coaches use to evaluate talent. no?
i wasn't using it as an argument, just a subjective attitude. hard to prove? yes, but i guess it's just another way to say that i think vander should be in the NBA, that's all, no biggie
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It baffles me why he is not gotten a look if Seth Curry and Jimmer Freddette have.
There has to be something that we don't see that they do not like...yet. Because I can't see why he is not in NBA. Especially up with a team like the Lakers....
I am sure Vander will get a look this Summer and Fall...But there has to be some thing they are not showing him. Whether it is basketball related or otherwise. It just doesn't add up.
Maybe it is a discipline, [ie, practice, coachability, leadership, etc] It surely is not just his play. He has improved his range, his finish on contact,...but looking at him I would say that I still do not like the jumper and his mechanics on his shot in the NBA to be consistent.
He still drifts to one side and does not line his body up squarely like Freddette and Curry...but they are not as explosive as Vander is. We'll see
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There is a possibility if he stayed he would have been a late second round pick which may have given him slightly more opportunity in that a team would have been slightly more invested in his success.
Vander has a great attitude and keeps plugging away. I really respect that in him.
No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.
Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.
Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.
Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.
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No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.
Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.
Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.
Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.
Why would Vander have been a first round pick? How would his game have improved enough? Why hasn't that improvement occurred over the past three seasons?
And to me it's obvious why he hasn't stuck. He isn't consistent enough as a shooter or ball handler. Especially for his size.
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No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.
Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.
Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.
Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.
A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick. When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.
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A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick. When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.
In retrospect, they were wrong.
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No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.
That's an awful lot of certainty for what is pretty much a hopeful, wild guess.
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A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick. When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.
No. At worst, he goes undrafted again, loses a year of salary and is right where he is today.
As I posted before but you ignored...
Of the 25 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2013 NBA Draft, only 8 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the Undrafted players from the 2013 NBA Draft, 7 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the 24 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2014 NBA Draft, only 11 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the Undrafted players from the 2014 NBA Draft, 10 are currently on NBA rosters.
IOW, there are 17 undrafted players from those classes in the NBA and 30 second round picks out of the NBA. How could that be? No 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances for those guys?
ADDITIONAL NOTE: 32 players were called up from the D-League in 2015-16. 18 of them were Undrafted, 9 were former 2nd Rounders and 5 were former 1st Rounders.
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ADDITIONAL NOTE: 32 players were called up from the D-League in 2015-16. 18 of them were Undrafted, 9 were former 2nd Rounders and 5 were former 1st Rounders.
Great information here. Thanks for sharing.
It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.
6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.
At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.
So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).
I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
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Great information here. Thanks for sharing.
It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.
6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.
At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.
So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).
I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
I think this is an excellent assessment of why Vander hasn't latched on anywhere. The kid is a good basketball player, good enough to be a stud at the D-League level and probably good enough to be a top player in Europe. He's just not quite at the level of the NBA guys. There's nothing wrong with that, there's probably only about 500-600 people on the planet that play enough games in a given year to be considered NBA regulars (30 teams, 15 players each, and more to cover injuries and such) and he's just below that group.
Just hope he realizes it while he still has good years left where he can maximize overseas earnings, because after 3 full seasons, if they haven't seen it yet, it's probably not there.
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Great information here. Thanks for sharing.
It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.
6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.
At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.
So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).
I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
All the points made above are accurate. I still think there may be one coach out there who will believe in the kid. I think if he gets one more chance it will be a real one and he will make the most of it. It is worth hanging around another year in the D League to find out. After that he should have some pretty good foreign options.
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All the points made above are accurate. I still think there may be one coach out there who will believe in the kid. I think if he gets one more chance it will be a real one and he will make the most of it. It is worth hanging around another year in the D League to find out. After that he should have some pretty good foreign options.
Beyond his athletic talent, Vander is incredibly focused and motivated. He's done everything possible to improve his game. He plays hard. He's shown that he's willing to play anywhere for his shot — in his first year as a pro, he was part of 8 different team rosters. The odds are likely against him at this point. But if he doesn't make his career in the NBA, it won't be for lack of effort.
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Great information here. Thanks for sharing.
It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.
6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.
At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.
So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).
I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
Exactly. This is why it didn't matter whether Vander left after junior or senior year at MU. The factors that have hitherto prevented him from breaking into the NBA would not have been salved by staying. Now, I wish he had stayed because another year at Marquette would have been far more rewarding to us fans than him scrapping away in the D-league, but I don't blame him for the choice he made. The last three years is proof that this was going to be the outcome in any event.
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Someone has to be telling him these things about his shortcomings and the odds of him making it to a roster.
Whatever his future success will be Europe or the NBA , I wish him much success.
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what does this mean
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what does this mean
Since you can't delete posts on Scoop if you aren't a moderator, people edit their post with "nm" (never mind) if they no long want to say something they previously posted.
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And speaking of guys facing a tough road after leaving college early, Diamond Stone worked out for the Hornets and says he never planned to go back to college.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article81370617.html#emlnl=todays-headlines_newsletter
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Not get to the D League is what they have to do.
And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever. Basketball isn't played one on one. It's played with 8 other people on the court.
Wades, some people think the d-league is like the minors in baseball. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
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Wades, some people think the d-league is like the minors in baseball. Couldn't be farther from the truth.
Exactly.
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Exactly. This is why it didn't matter whether Vander left after junior or senior year at MU. The factors that have hitherto prevented him from breaking into the NBA would not have been salved by staying. Now, I wish he had stayed because another year at Marquette would have been far more rewarding to us fans than him scrapping away in the D-league, but I don't blame him for the choice he made. The last three years is proof that this was going to be the outcome in any event.
Could not disagree more and a number of scouts have convinced me of that case. When you are drafted, which he would have been, you are given much more latitude and opportunities to make it in the league. The homework has been done, the vetting as a player has been done. You simply get more looks and opportunities when you are drafted, and so it absolutely makes a difference if he left junior or senior year, because senior year would have meant being drafted and that = more opportunities to stick in the league. It doesn't guarantee he would, nothing does, but the opportunities are more prevalent.
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Could not disagree more and a number of scouts have convinced me of that case. When you are drafted, which he would have been, you are given much more latitude and opportunities to make it in the league. The homework has been done, the vetting as a player has been done. You simply get more looks and opportunities when you are drafted, and so it absolutely makes a difference if he left junior or senior year, because senior year would have meant being drafted and that = more opportunities to stick in the league. It doesn't guarantee he would, nothing does, but the opportunities are more prevalent.
You keep stating this and presenting it as fact. And it's just not. He MAY have been drafted (I, personally, don't think he would have been). There's no certainty.
And, again, he would have had to have made a similar jump in talent/ability from junior to senior as he did from sophomore to junior. Certainly no guarantee of that happening either.
I do agree with you on a drafted player getting more chances/looks than an undrafted though.
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You keep stating this and presenting it as fact. And it's just not. He MAY have been drafted (I, personally, don't think he would have been). There's no certainty.
And, again, he would have had to have made a similar jump in talent/ability from junior to senior as he did from sophomore to junior. Certainly no guarantee of that happening either.
I do agree with you on a drafted player getting more chances/looks than an undrafted though.
Let me be clear, the scouts I have dealt with....most of them at Draft Express and one that is not, all said he would be drafted the next year in their opinion. You're correct, it is an opinion...an opinion of experts in their field, but anything could have happened. That is their opinion, an educated opinion, which I'm passing along.
There was a reason why most draft experts said he should REMAIN in college. That was their educated opinion.
I don't think I'm stating it as fact, but fair enough. In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?
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Let me be clear, the scouts I have dealt with....most of them at Draft Express and one that is not, all said he would be drafted the next year in their opinion. You're correct, it is an opinion...an opinion of experts in their field, but anything could have happened. That is their opinion, an educated opinion, which I'm passing along.
There was a reason why most draft experts said he should REMAIN in college. That was their educated opinion.
I don't think I'm stating it as fact, but fair enough. In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?
Why did those scouts think he would be drafted after senior year and not junior year? Because they anticipated/assumed continued growth/development, right? That's the big sticking point for me. I think Vander had maxed out his abilities while in college.
I would have had no problem with him staying (it would have made MU better). I had no real problem with him going either.
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Let me be clear, the scouts I have dealt with....most of them at Draft Express and one that is not, all said he would be drafted the next year in their opinion. You're correct, it is an opinion...an opinion of experts in their field, but anything could have happened. That is their opinion, an educated opinion, which I'm passing along.
There was a reason why most draft experts said he should REMAIN in college. That was their educated opinion.
I don't think I'm stating it as fact, but fair enough. In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?
If your scout friends really think that a 6'4" shooting guard who couldn't shoot was going to get drafted after his senior year then they aren't very good scouts.
Yes, there is a reason that scouts said Vander should remain at college. That reason is that he was not going to get drafted. If Duane Wilson had decided he wanted to "enter the NBA Draft" back in April they would've said the same thing. Not because that means "You're not ready for the NBA, but if you go back to school you have a great chance of being drafted after next season!" It simply means, "You're not going to get drafted in this year's NBA Draft."
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Let me be clear, the scouts I have dealt with....most of them at Draft Express and one that is not, all said he would be drafted the next year in their opinion. You're correct, it is an opinion...an opinion of experts in their field, but anything could have happened. That is their opinion, an educated opinion, which I'm passing along.
There was a reason why most draft experts said he should REMAIN in college. That was their educated opinion.
I don't think I'm stating it as fact, but fair enough. In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?
Let me be clear. In retrospect they were wrong.
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Why did those scouts think he would be drafted after senior year and not junior year? Because they anticipated/assumed continued growth/development, right? That's the big sticking point for me. I think Vander had maxed out his abilities while in college.
I would have had no problem with him staying (it would have made MU better). I had no real problem with him going either.
Simple, and I posted this on Cracked Sidewalks at the time as well as posts afterward.
Vander was one of the youngest guys in the draft for his class. They felt that he had more maturing and growing (basketball wise) to do. His outside shot was inconsistent, but at least trending better. He would have the chance to play point guard at times, which he had not done to a great degree through his first three years. The feeling was that he needed to show broader value, and the ability to step in and play point guard would be part of that.
Here's what was told to me by the founder of Draft Express prior to the draft (2 months prior). When his final rankings came out two days before the draft, Vander was not on his list. Of course, Vander didn't get drafted.
"Most of the people I spoke with believe he is probably a second round pick that could work his way up, but that he would be better off going back for his senior year because he is very young for his class...he is only 20 years old. Blue would be a young senior at 21 if he had returned."
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This is a classic Scoop argument.
"Fact" 1 cannot be proven, ever, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he WOULD have drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
"Fact" 2 also can never be proven, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he would NOT have been drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
And then the argument ensues, with each side arguing for their unprovable facts.
Too much fun. And THAT'S a fact!
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Since you can't delete posts on Scoop if you aren't a moderator, people edit their post with "nm" (never mind) if they no long want to say something they previously posted.
So I guess I better go back and NM all my posts about Henry staying 4 years.
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This is a classic Scoop argument.
"Fact" 1 cannot be proven, ever, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he WOULD have drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
"Fact" 2 also can never be proven, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he would NOT have been drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
And then the argument ensues, with each side arguing for their unprovable facts.
Too much fun. And THAT'S a fact!
Fact, you lied about what I said earlier today.....but don't worry, I don't expect an apology. ;)
You are correct, impossible to say what would happen with Vander. There are opinions and more opinions. There are expert opinions, which may or may not be more valuable than just every day opinions.
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This is a classic Scoop argument.
"Fact" 1 cannot be proven, ever, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he WOULD have drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
"Fact" 2 also can never be proven, because Vander did NOT return for his senior season and therefore we will never, ever know that he would NOT have been drafted. But that won't stop some posters from treating it as fact.
And then the argument ensues, with each side arguing for their unprovable facts.
Too much fun. And THAT'S a fact!
OK, Joe Friday.
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Fact, you lied about what I said earlier today.....but don't worry, I don't expect an apology. ;)
You are correct, impossible to say what would happen with Vander. There are opinions and more opinions. There are expert opinions, which may or may not be more valuable than just every day opinions.
You lie about me lying. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to say it here. After all, I didn't have time to post it on the The Superbar thread because it was locked after you made it political.
As for opinions ... Chicos, we all know that any opinion you favor is more valuable than anybody else's opinion. That's how a narcissist always thinks.
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In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?
We know. You have provided this opinion dozens of times--any chance you get. Strange obsession you have.
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Fact, you lied about what I said earlier today.....but don't worry, I don't expect an apology. ;)
You are correct, impossible to say what would happen with Vander. There are opinions and more opinions. There are expert opinions, which may or may not be more valuable than just every day opinions.
First of all, if any NBA Draft "experts" in the media truly were draft experts, they'd be employed by NBA teams.
Second, Vander was NOT going to be drafted when he came out. Had he stayed his senior year, there was a slightly better chance he'd get drafted but the odds were still against him. If you want to make the argument that staying for his senior was likely to increase his chances to get drafted, you could do that (i.e. he went from a 1% chance of being drafted to a 4% chance). That said, being drafted would have in no way impacted his ability to stick on an NBA roster. If he was an NBA player, he'd be on a roster. He's not so he isn't. Being a late 2nd Round pick wasn't going to change that.
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IF Vanderbilt had come back, started at the point all year, been successful, let the team on another deep run....... Maybe he gets drafted. Moot point.
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That said, being drafted would have in no way impacted his ability to stick on an NBA roster. If he was an NBA player, he'd be on a roster. He's not so he isn't. Being a late 2nd Round pick wasn't going to change that.
I actually agree with Chicos to an extent on this. I don't have the data but just by my memory it certainly seems like those who are drafted are given a little more rope and time to prove themselves. The only D-League players I can think of who did anything in the NBA are Jeremy Lin, Rafer Alston, Birdman, and Danny Green. Most players in the D-league just seem to fade away.
I also agree that Vander was one of few players who legitimately could of improved his draft stock by staying another year. If he could show that he could run the point and shoot the 3 consistently, I think he would have been drafted. However, given that he still can't shoot the three consistently, and he's in a position where he practices and plays more often than he ever would have in college, I don't think that would have happened.
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I actually agree with Chicos to an extent on this. I don't have the data but just by my memory it certainly seems like those who are drafted are given a little more rope and time to prove themselves.
Merritts already addressed this in this topic:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51935.msg842668#msg842668
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Merritts already addressed this in this topic:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51935.msg842668#msg842668
In addition...
From the 2015 Draft, 11 2nd Rounders ended the NBA season on a roster.
9 Undrafted players ended the season on a roster.
9 US-born 2nd Rounders never even made a roster.
All total from 2013-15:
28 2nd Rounders on a roster
26 Undrafted on a roster
39 2nd Rounders NOT on a roster
(US players only - numbers not being padded with internationals)
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In addition...
All total from 2013-15:
28 2nd Rounders on a roster
26 Undrafted on a roster
39 2nd Rounders NOT on a roster
In other words, it is statistically far less likely for a second-round pick to make an NBA roster than to not make an NBA roster.
Facts. Gotta hate 'em when you're a certain Scooper who keeps making arguments to the contrary.
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First of all, if any NBA Draft "experts" in the media truly were draft experts, they'd be employed by NBA teams.
Second, Vander was NOT going to be drafted when he came out. Had he stayed his senior year, there was a slightly better chance he'd get drafted but the odds were still against him. If you want to make the argument that staying for his senior was likely to increase his chances to get drafted, you could do that (i.e. he went from a 1% chance of being drafted to a 4% chance). That said, being drafted would have in no way impacted his ability to stick on an NBA roster. If he was an NBA player, he'd be on a roster. He's not so he isn't. Being a late 2nd Round pick wasn't going to change that.
Truth.
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And one could argue that there are slightly more second rounders than free agents on NBA rosters because they simply are better basketball players to begin with.
I also agree that Vander was one of few players who legitimately could of improved his draft stock by staying another year. If he could show that he could run the point and shoot the 3 consistently, I think he would have been drafted. However, given that he still can't shoot the three consistently, and he's in a position where he practices and plays more often than he ever would have in college, I don't think that would have happened.
And that really is the point. Vander may have made a mistake because he left Marquette without a degree and missed out on one more year of college experience, but as a basketball decision, it was largely irrelevant. He has been given plenty of opportunities to showcase his talents...summer leagues, NBDL, cups of coffee in the NBA...and the collective response from NBA GMs has been...."meh."
Chicos insistence that he could have been drafted in the second round, and that second round picks are more valued than free agents, is simply wrong given Merritt's statistics.
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In addition...
From the 2015 Draft, 11 2nd Rounders ended the NBA season on a roster.
9 Undrafted players ended the season on a roster.9 US-born 2nd Rounders never even made a roster.
All total from 2013-15:
28 2nd Rounders on a roster
26 Undrafted on a roster
39 2nd Rounders NOT on a roster
(US players only - numbers not being padded with internationals)
So 28/67 2nd rounders make an NBA roster. 26 out of some much, much, much larger number (all college senior playing basketball players plus internationals who come over) make it. Seems like 2nd rounders have a much better chance of making it than non-draftees, which is part of Chico's point.
So I'm not so sure what these numbers mean to Vander's case.
Frankly, I tend to agree with those who say ultimately Vander would not have stuck in the NBA. Bottom line is that he is around 6-3 and not adept enough of a ball handler/passer to play the point and not a good enough shooter or a big enough body to play the wing in the NBA. Sure, if he was a lot better at one of those things and demonstrated it his senior year he would probably have gotten drafted and had a pretty good shot at being on someone's bench. I don't see how he would have improved more at MU than in the NBDL, though, so I doubt he would have demonstrated that kind of improvement at MU.
But I also agree that if he had managed to get himself drafted after his senior year he would have improved his odds considerably. I am not sure, but I don't think he would have improved enough to make that happen.
I think he'd have been better off staying at MU and graduating. Would have opened more doors for coaching when his playing days are done. Sure he could go back some time and finish, but credits expire and he's not making enough money to pay for college unless he goes to Europe, etc. But I'm not presumptuous enough to expect Vander to think like me.
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Merritts already addressed this in this topic:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51935.msg842668#msg842668
Well yeah...but that just proves there are a lot more undrafted players than there are second round picks.
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(US players only - numbers not being padded with internationals)
I honestly don't know, why don't you include internationals? Is there a reason?
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Well yeah...but that just proves there are a lot more undrafted players than there are second round picks.
Chicos argument is that it leads to more opportunities when you are drafted.
But in this case, NBA GMs made 54 personnel decisions. In making those decisions, they chose 28 second rounders. They chose 26 free agents even though 39 additional second rounders were available. So when chosing among options, NBA GMs were pretty much just as likely to choose an undrafted player as they were a drafted one.
Now you are right that the pool of undrafted players is significantly larger than the pool of second rounders, so the chance of any one player being selected is greater if you are a second round pick. But second round picks are usually better than undrafted ones. But there is no loyalty to those picks IF an NBA GM determines that another player is better.
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I honestly don't know, why don't you include internationals? Is there a reason?
Most of the international players are still playing under contract overseas so I didn't want to include them because it would skew the number of players who aren't currently in the NBA.
Only 5 of the 23 2nd round internationals (since 2013) have ever played in the NBA but very few (if any) of them were actually cut by an NBA team. They simply haven't come to the US to play.
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Chicos argument is that it leads to more opportunities when you are drafted.
But in this case, NBA GMs made 54 personnel decisions. In making those decisions, they chose 28 second rounders. They chose 26 free agents even though 39 additional second rounders were available. So when chosing among options, NBA GMs were pretty much just as likely to choose an undrafted player as they were a drafted one.
Now you are right that the pool of undrafted players is significantly larger than the pool of second rounders, so the chance of any one player being selected is greater if you are a second round pick. But second round picks are usually better than undrafted ones. But there is no loyalty to those picks IF an NBA GM determines that another player is better.
Stated very well.
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Chicos insistence that he could have been drafted in the second round, and that second round picks are more valued than free agents, is simply wrong given Merritt's statistics.
Oh, but Chicos didn't just insist Vander could have been drafted. He stated, as fact, that Vander WOULD have been drafted had Vander stayed.
Until Chicos was called on it. Then he admitted it was just an opinion.
But he wasn't about to "lose," so he said his opinion was superior to others' opinions because his opinion was based upon superior opinions.
Got it?
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If your scout friends really think that a 6'4" shooting guard who couldn't shoot was going to get drafted after his senior year then they aren't very good scouts.
Yes, there is a reason that scouts said Vander should remain at college. That reason is that he was not going to get drafted. If Duane Wilson had decided he wanted to "enter the NBA Draft" back in April they would've said the same thing. Not because that means "You're not ready for the NBA, but if you go back to school you have a great chance of being drafted after next season!" It simply means, "You're not going to get drafted in this year's NBA Draft."
My Scout friends do this for a living, for the NBA, for Draft Express, etc. No one is perfect, but they have a very good track record. To say they aren't very good scouts is laughable. That is a merit based business, you produce or you are gone. If you have bad evaluations, you are gone. Simple as that.
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In other words, it is statistically far less likely for a second-round pick to make an NBA roster than to not make an NBA roster.
Facts. Gotta hate 'em when you're a certain Scooper who keeps making arguments to the contrary.
So great, coming from you.
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So 28/67 2nd rounders make an NBA roster. 26 out of some much, much, much larger number (all college senior playing basketball players plus internationals who come over) make it. Seems like 2nd rounders have a much better chance of making it than non-draftees, which is part of Chico's point.
So I'm not so sure what these numbers mean to Vander's case.
DING DING DING. We have a winner. It's all the denominator, but math class was missed by some of these guys. Furthermore, the sample size he is using is laughable.
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In retrospect, they were wrong.
Prove it!
You can't
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No. At worst, he goes undrafted again, loses a year of salary and is right where he is today.
As I posted before but you ignored...
Of the 25 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2013 NBA Draft, only 8 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the Undrafted players from the 2013 NBA Draft, 7 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the 24 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2014 NBA Draft, only 11 are currently on NBA rosters.
Of the Undrafted players from the 2014 NBA Draft, 10 are currently on NBA rosters.
IOW, there are 17 undrafted players from those classes in the NBA and 30 second round picks out of the NBA. How could that be? No 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances for those guys?
ADDITIONAL NOTE: 32 players were called up from the D-League in 2015-16. 18 of them were Undrafted, 9 were former 2nd Rounders and 5 were former 1st Rounders.
I ignored it because it is so massive with errors. What was the pool of 2nd round draft picks? 30. What was the pool of undrafted players? 100? 200? 500? The point is, you're not even comparing apples to apples. Your denominators are laughable.
Secondly, you're using 2013, 2014, 2015 very recent...as if no second chances can still exist? Of course they can.
Third, you assume he would be drafted in the 2nd round in this analysis. Who's to say he doesn't go up to the first round, which some scouts projected? We will never know.
End of the day, his chances of being drafted into the NBA were better if he stayed his senior year than when he left, the opinions of a number of scouts. Since none of the 30 GMs drafted him in either round, their actions seem to agree. We'll never know if he would have been drafted in the next year, but experts in the field suggest he would. What we do know, for a fact, is he wasn't drafted the year he came out.
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Vander's issue was he wasn't a great outside shooter and undersized at the 2. He needed to prove he could play the point, or at least be serviceable in that area. That's why returning would have been wise. Hell, even Buzz knew what a dumb decision it was.
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My Scout friends do this for a living, for the NBA, for Draft Express, etc. No one is perfect, but they have a very good track record. To say they aren't very good scouts is laughable. That is a merit based business, you produce or you are gone. If you have bad evaluations, you are gone. Simple as that.
Just stating the fact that if your scout friends thought that a 6'3" SG who shoots the ball worse than Zaza Pachulia was going to be drafted after his senior year of college they aren't very good scouts.
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Vander's issue was he wasn't a great outside shooter and undersized at the 2. He needed to prove he could play the point, or at least be serviceable in that area. That's why returning would have been wise. Hell, even Buzz knew what a dumb decision it was.
Returning would've been wise for who?
It was a dumb decision for who?
Vander started getting paid a year earlier than what he would've had he stayed in school and at the same rate he would've a year later. And he didn't have to attend classes and could focus 100% on his career. Doesn't seem like all that bad of a decision to me.
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In early April of 2013, Draft Express and two other draft publications had Vander as a 2014 FIRST ROUND draft choice. Now, would he have made it? Who knows, but that's what the experts had projected at the time. Not second round. Not undrafted, but first round.
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Returning would've been wise for who?
It was a dumb decision for who?
Vander started getting paid a year earlier than what he would've had he stayed in school and at the same rate he would've a year later. And he didn't have to attend classes and could focus 100% on his career. Doesn't seem like all that bad of a decision to me.
how much was he getting paid?? he had no stability with regards to where he was going to hang his marble sack. yes, i know that isn't that uncommon for anyone seeking a new career in whatever it may be.
vander returns for one more year to work on the skills that the NBA needs him for. playing larger, working on a better outside shot-consistency,etc for me, vander left for more reasons than just wanting to move to the next level. he was getting bad advice-2nd round or undrafted invitee, worse case scenario-europe where he could actually make pretty good rubels. well, vander didn't like europe regardless of the $$$ and he WANTED the NBA-period. i think he liked his girls to have less arm pit hair than he for starters
that's where the sticky wicket come in-were there rumors of difficult to coach? attitudes? work ethic?
i remember seeing the transformation of jj reddick from rookie to 2nd-3rd year NBA was amazing. initially, he looked lost, very very; a boy among men. he looked destined for europe or d-league...forever. during the next 2 years, he became a man and a force-how? physically he put on some good muscle and developed a lethal outside shot, gained the quickness needed to NOT become a defensive liability
vander-say hello to jj or people like him and don't go around slapping people who look at you cross-eyed
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What happened here
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What happened here
Chicos once again claims he knows people who know things and therefore he can't be wrong.
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Chicos once again claims he knows people who know things and therefore he can't be wrong.
I've openly posted interviews I've had with these people on CS. You make it sound like they were made up. Are you claiming I don't know these people? This ought to be good.
I can be wrong and admit it often when I am
Once again Sultan is a little light in the credibility department. Why stop now....
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Returning would've been wise for who?
It was a dumb decision for who?
Vander started getting paid a year earlier than what he would've had he stayed in school and at the same rate he would've a year later. And he didn't have to attend classes and could focus 100% on his career. Doesn't seem like all that bad of a decision to me.
Delaying mediocre payment one year for the chance of real payment is not that big a risk. He was 20, lots of time left.
I hope it works out for him.
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In early April of 2013, Draft Express and two other draft publications had Vander as a 2014 FIRST ROUND draft choice. Now, would he have made it? Who knows, but that's what the experts had projected at the time. Not second round. Not undrafted, but first round.
Once again, I understand this. But there had to be stipulations/assumptions to go along with their predictions, right? I'm guessing those assumptions are that he would have improved even more beyond his abilities junior year.
I believe those assumptions would not have come to pass. And, judging by where he is right now professionally, I appear to be correct.
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Right. He's in the exact same place he would have been. Except he would have been one year closer to a degree.
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Vander clearly didn't want to be in college for another year.
THAT seems to me to have been the driving force behind his decision, which I'm guessing he made quite a while before the season ended.
I respect his honesty: He didn't want to "waste" another year of pretending to care about school. If he was as good as a sophomore as he was as a junior, he almost surely would have left then. Some athletes simply don't want to be in college one day longer than they absolutely have to be.
Maybe he also thought he could be an NBA player, that once scouts saw him in tryouts, etc, they would fall in love with him. He was wrong about that. Not the first time a 20-year-old didn't assess his prospects properly.
Would he have been an NBA player had he stayed another season? We will never, ever, ever know ... no matter how many times Chicos says it's so. What we do know is that he is not quite big enough, does not have quite a good enough handle, does not have PG skills and is not quite a good enough shooter. There have been a few exceptions but, most of the time, talent wins out. History is filled with college stars who are lousy pro prospects ... and although I really liked Vander being on our team, he was hardly a "star."
I doubt another year at Marquette would have made him taller, stronger, more point-guardy, more of a marksman, etc, but I acknowledge that is only my opinion. I like to think I have a fairly educated opinion on these things, but I've been wrong more than a few times. Hell, I sure didn't think Jimmy Butler would be an All-Star.
Oh, and I recognize the mathematical error I made with the whole second-round thing earlier in this thread. It probably won't be my last mistake this week ... and the week only has a few hours left.
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Vander clearly didn't want to be in college for another year.
THAT seems to me to have been the driving force behind his decision, which I'm guessing he made quite a while before the season ended.
I respect his honesty: He didn't want to "waste" another year of pretending to care about school. If he was as good as a sophomore as he was as a junior, he almost surely would have left then. Some athletes simply don't want to be in college one day longer than they absolutely have to be.
Maybe he also thought he could be an NBA player, that once scouts saw him in tryouts, etc, they would fall in love with him. He was wrong about that. Not the first time a 20-year-old didn't assess his prospects properly.
Would he have been an NBA player had he stayed another season? We will never, ever, ever know ... no matter how many times Chicos says it's so. What we do know is that he is not quite big enough, does not have quite a good enough handle, does not have PG skills and is not quite a good enough shooter. There have been a few exceptions but, most of the time, talent wins out. History is filled with college stars who are lousy pro prospects ... and although I really liked Vander being on our team, he was hardly a "star."
I doubt another year at Marquette would have made him taller, stronger, more point-guardy, more of a marksman, etc, but I acknowledge that is only my opinion. I like to think I have a fairly educated opinion on these things, but I've been wrong more than a few times. Hell, I sure didn't think Jimmy Butler would be an All-Star.
Oh, and I recognize the mathematical error I made with the whole second-round thing earlier in this thread. It probably won't be my last mistake this week ... and the week only has a few hours left.
The point about not liking going to school is a good one. One of the things to consider was that Vander may well have been on an academic borderline. The prior year I believe Todd Mayo had some academic issues and missed part of a season. It very well could have been a risk Vander did not want to take. If that were the case, and I don't know if it is, that would support his decision to leave school. In any case I think he is still in pretty much the same place he would have been if he stayed. Right now he needs to find a GM/Coach in the NBA that believes in what he has to offer and give him more than a 10 day contract to prove it.
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Vander was fine academically.
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I'll add to this to say I've gotten to know one of vander's elementary school teachers who has nothing but great things to say about him. They still communicate to this day.
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Vander was fine academically.
Let the record show that I never said he was anything but fine academically. (And I don't think this was addressed to me.)
All I said was that it seemed to me, from afar, that he did not want to attend college any longer than he had to. And I also said that was only my opinion.
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Let the record show that I never said he was anything but fine academically. (And I don't think this was addressed to me.)
All I said was that it seemed to me, from afar, that he did not want to attend college any longer than he had to. And I also said that was only my opinion.
MU Fan in NY said "One of the things to consider was that Vander may well have been on an academic borderline."
He wasn't. He was in good shape.
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Once again, I understand this. But there had to be stipulations/assumptions to go along with their predictions, right? I'm guessing those assumptions are that he would have improved even more beyond his abilities junior year.
I believe those assumptions would not have come to pass. And, judging by where he is right now professionally, I appear to be correct.
I'm not sure how you get to your second paragraph in all honesty. Yes, the assumption is that he would continue to improve. Drafting is a lot on potential, right. If he continued to improve, the experts believed he would, those same experts believed he would be drafted and in the first round by some. What he has done since I'd irrelevant to whether he would have been drafted.
Lots of guys are drafted that don't pan out long term. But that's the point, they still got drafted. Many of them with multiple opportunities because they were drafted.
One thing for certain, if he was drafted in the first round as a number of these experts predicted, that's guaranteed money.
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"They get multiple opportunities because they were drafted."
No. They get multiple opportunities because they are considered more talented. No NBA GM is thinking "I was going to invite this guy in. But he wasn't drafted. So I'll invite this other guy instead who was drafted and cut by another team."
Vander has had plenty of chances and opportunities. He has been in three organizations and played in the NBA for two teams. Being drafted wouldn't have helped him any more.
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The point about not liking going to school is a good one. One of the things to consider was that Vander may well have been on an academic borderline. The prior year I believe Todd Mayo had some academic issues and missed part of a season. It very well could have been a risk Vander did not want to take. If that were the case, and I don't know if it is, that would support his decision to leave school. In any case I think he is still in pretty much the same place he would have been if he stayed. Right now he needs to find a GM/Coach in the NBA that believes in what he has to offer and give him more than a 10 day contract to prove it.
It is a lazy one. The way the NCAA works all he had to do was go to school for one more semester. Second semester he could have mailed in everything...sad to say, but he could have. There is a reason why Buzz was so dumbfounded at this decision, because it was a dumb decision.
Separately....MU82...
Now, MU82, I have stated that i'm leaning on expert opinions, not just mine. People that do this for a living. But I also agree with you that we will never know. That goes both ways!
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"They get multiple opportunities because they were drafted."
No. They get multiple opportunities because they are considered more talented. No NBA GM is thinking "I was going to invite this guy in. But he wasn't drafted. So I'll invite this other guy instead who was drafted and cut by another team."
Vander has had plenty of chances and opportunities. He has been in three organizations and played in the NBA for two teams. Being drafted wouldn't have helped him any more.
Do not agree with this and neither do the scouts I talk to. If a team is willing to draft a player, especially in a higher round, they have put a ton of money, resources, etc in evaluations. Other teams have also. Those opportunities come because scouts have thought highly enough to leverage a pick. It becomes currency. Even if the player stumbles, that currency exists because someone or perhaps multiple teams thought highly enough of them to make that pick. Much easier to go back and justify a second or third look on a drafts kid than an unstaffed one, because so much work and s precious pick by a team has been used.
Right about now is when the failed logic of using all undrafted players vs 2nd round draft picks will emerge....denominators fellas....denominators.
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Now, MU82, I have stated that i'm leaning on expert opinions, not just mine. People that do this for a living. But I also agree with you that we will never know. That goes both ways!
I never claimed anything else.
Although my opinion is more "expert" than yours - ha!
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I'm not sure how you get to your second paragraph in all honesty. Yes, the assumption is that he would continue to improve. Drafting is a lot on potential, right. If he continued to improve, the experts believed he would, those same experts believed he would be drafted and in the first round by some. What he has done since I'd irrelevant to whether he would have been drafted.
Lots of guys are drafted that don't pan out long term. But that's the point, they still got drafted. Many of them with multiple opportunities because they were drafted.
One thing for certain, if he was drafted in the first round as a number of these experts predicted, that's guaranteed money.
The experts were predicting he would get drafted based on the assumption that he would be better after senior year than junior year.
Where vander is right now, talent-wise, I don't believe he would be drafted. If his talent now isn't good enough to get drafted, then he never would have had enough talent to get drafted after senior year, IMO.
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Do not agree with this and neither do the scouts I talk to. If a team is willing to draft a player, especially in a higher round, they have put a ton of money, resources, etc in evaluations. Other teams have also. Those opportunities come because scouts have thought highly enough to leverage a pick. It becomes currency. Even if the player stumbles, that currency exists because someone or perhaps multiple teams thought highly enough of them to make that pick. Much easier to go back and justify a second or third look on a drafts kid than an unstaffed one, because so much work and s precious pick by a team has been used.
Right about now is when the failed logic of using all undrafted players vs 2nd round draft picks will emerge....denominators fellas....denominators.
1) The NBA Draft is two rounds. There are ONLY "early rounds." It may hold true that drafted players in other sports have better odds of getting second chances but it's also worth noting that a 3rd Rd NFL pick who gets cut, likely was viewed as having "3rd Round Talent" which contributes to him getting another chance. That's a result of a team thinking they can bring out his potential, not because they're too lazy to gather research on an undrafted player.
2) NBA scouts have scouting reports on WAY more than just the 60 players who get drafted. Even Draft Express goes over 100 players deep for each draft. NBA teams go much deeper than that. Even knowing that most of those players won't sniff the NBA (Junior Cadougan had an NBA workout, FFS!) they're still going to do their due diligence. To suggest that NBA teams prefer drafted players because of another team's resources allocated to that player is asinine.
3) There are roughly 1,200 D1 basketball players eligible for the NBA Draft every season. Maybe 5-6% of those players have an actual chance of being drafted. There are 30 2nd Round picks each season. How many undrafted players in each draft class have a legit chance to make an NBA roster? It's likely not much more than 30, if it's even that high. Sure, if you look at the big picture, the denominator is 30-40 times bigger, but when you look at it realistically, it's not all that different.
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Total crapshoot, hey?
Free Chicos 2016
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Total crapshoot, hey?
Free Chicos 2016
a moment of silence and da scooper's flags at half mast, heiner hey?
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da scooper's flags at half mast, heiner hey?
Is this out of respect or because people stopped taking their pills again.
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I saw a couple of his games live on TV. He has improved so much since last time he played Marquette. A NBA team needs to give him a chance. He had a great season.
26.3 ppg
5 rpg
3.4 apg
1.8 spg
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I saw a couple of his games live on TV. He has improved so much since last time he played Marquette. A NBA team needs to give him a chance. He had a great season.
26.3 ppg
5 rpg
3.4 apg
1.8 spg
As the NBA owns the D-League, I'm confident all the GMs are fully aware of Blue. Whenever they are looking to fill a last roster spot with a 10-day contract, I'm sure they are starting with the guys in the D-League. That he didn't get a chance in the midst of that season may be more telling as to his NBA prospects than anything else. Probably time for Blue to look into Europe and focus on making the best paycheck he can, because as much as I'd like to see him playing in the league...well, the ship may not have sailed just yet, but they have started untying the bowlines.
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Looks like Vander may be playing for the Mavericks in the summer league.
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericks/2016/06/26/sefko-mavs-summer-league-players-may-make-much-impact-important-another-way
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Looks like Vander may be playing for the Mavericks in the summer league.
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericks/2016/06/26/sefko-mavs-summer-league-players-may-make-much-impact-important-another-way
I think he could make the Mavs considering DWill is opting out of his contract.
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I think he could make the Mavs considering DWill is opting out of his contract.
Can someone Photoshop a Mavs uniform on Derrick Wilson?
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Looks like Vander may be playing for the Mavericks in the summer league.
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericks/2016/06/26/sefko-mavs-summer-league-players-may-make-much-impact-important-another-way
Not sure who you play for in the Summer League is at all relevant. All the teams are watching those games and looking for the best players, but playing "for" one team doesn't guarantee that team will give you the closest look.
I could be wrong on that, but would love to see the numbers as far as Summer League guys that earn contracts and how many earn them with the team that they play for. More than anything, I think it's an exhibition to get rookies and fringe players into shape for the season rather than a true audition for the next level.
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As the NBA owns the D-League, I'm confident all the GMs are fully aware of Blue. Whenever they are looking to fill a last roster spot with a 10-day contract, I'm sure they are starting with the guys in the D-League. That he didn't get a chance in the midst of that season may be more telling as to his NBA prospects than anything else. Probably time for Blue to look into Europe and focus on making the best paycheck he can, because as much as I'd like to see him playing in the league...well, the ship may not have sailed just yet, but they have started untying the bowlines.
Not to offer Vander advice but I agree with the notion that he should give the NBA one last shot and then go try to make as much money in Europe as possible. He's already about 23 (not sure exactly) and needs to consider how many years he can get paid (maybe 8 more?). His talents would seem to be sufficient to accumulate a relatively significant nest egg if he doesn't wait too long.
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
I don't think anyone would care for more than 5 minutes. And how would the PR look when Vander got cut because he couldn't make it on the team?
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
Uff-da.
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
Yes, because Vander is beloved by nearly all Wisconsites ::)
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
This is what bad organizations do.
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Now that OJ Mayo is kicked out of the league, Bucks need to step up and sign Vander. Would be a very good PR move .
i didn't see this coming! i thought he was the "smart" one from the mayo family. no wonder he was no help to todd. forgot he was the 3rd overall pick in 2008. since the collective bargaining agreement says the NBA can't say what drug-
However, the NBA's collective bargaining agreement — which is a public document — lists the following "drugs of abuse" as prohibited substances: amphetamines and its analogs, cocaine, LSD, opiates (heroin, codeine and morphine), and PCP.
my guess would be cola-caine Ayn'A
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OJ blew all of Todd's tuition on blow?
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i didn't see this coming! i thought he was the "smart" one from the mayo family. no wonder he was no help to todd. forgot he was the 3rd overall pick in 2008. since the collective bargaining agreement says the NBA can't say what drug-
However, the NBA's collective bargaining agreement — which is a public document — lists the following "drugs of abuse" as prohibited substances: amphetamines and its analogs, cocaine, LSD, opiates (heroin, codeine and morphine), and PCP.
my guess would be cola-caine Ayn'A
OJ Yeyooooo
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I don't think anyone would care for more than 5 minutes. And how would the PR look when Vander got cut because he couldn't make it on the team?
I think the PR would be local college star makes good after long hard journey etc People love those kind of stories. This then puts the OJ Mayo story in the rear view mirror.
I am in the pro Vander camp.
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The OJ Mayo story isn't reflecting poorly on the Bucks.
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The OJ Mayo story isn't reflecting poorly on the Bucks.
Drugs and NBA never good. I see a small crevice and want to jam the door open for Vander.
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Drugs and NBA never good. I see a small crevice and want to jam the door open for Vander.
Again, that's how dumb teams react. Good teams just try to get better.
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Again, that's how dumb teams react. Good teams just try to get better.
Vander can add value.
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Vander can add value.
Apparently no NBA GM agrees with you.
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Apparently no NBA GM agrees with you.
These things take time.
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Vander with 14 points in opening game lost 86-85. Play by Play shows he missed the last shot. I was not able to watch game. Next game Sunday at 1pm Eastern.
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These things take time.
For what, exactly? Vander is who he is, and the D-league is not representative of the style of ball played in the big leagues. I think had he stayed, Vander may have been drafted in the second round. I don't think he would have been any more or less successful than he has been.
I think the most financially prudent option for him would be to maximize his prime years overseas.
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For what, exactly? Vander is who he is, and the D-league is not representative of the style of ball played in the big leagues. I think had he stayed, Vander may have been drafted in the second round. I don't think he would have been any more or less successful than he has been.
I think the most financially prudent option for him would be to maximize his prime years overseas.
Takes time for the right set of circumstances to emerge. Thinks can turn on a dime. Jae was supposedly on thin ice with the Mavs and struck gold in a coach , Brad Stevens, who believed in him.
I agree if he does not find his way into the league this year, overseas would be the best option for him.
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Vander has a game in Summer League today at 1 eastern.
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Takes time for the right set of circumstances to emerge. Thinks can turn on a dime. Jae was supposedly on thin ice with the Mavs and struck gold in a coach , Brad Stevens, who believed in him.
I agree if he does not find his way into the league this year, overseas would be the best option for him.
The difference, I believe, is that Jae had spent most of his time on a roster prior to his breakthrough chance. Vander has had, if I recall correctly, three 10-day contracts with three different teams (Philly, Boston, LA Lakers) that were not renewed. Dallas may not have given Jae much time, but they also didn't risk losing him, whereas none of the teams that gave Vander a chance seemed to think he was valuable enough to keep around.
I love the kid. Think he did a great job of fighting through criticism at Marquette and emerging as a very good college player. He was a hard worker who figured out how to contribute from day one and grew his game from that point to go from defensive role-player to best player on a conference championship winner. But I just don't think he's a NBA player.
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The difference, I believe, is that Jae had spent most of his time on a roster prior to his breakthrough chance. Vander has had, if I recall correctly, three 10-day contracts with three different teams (Philly, Boston, LA Lakers) that were not renewed. Dallas may not have given Jae much time, but they also didn't risk losing him, whereas none of the teams that gave Vander a chance seemed to think he was valuable enough to keep around.
I love the kid. Think he did a great job of fighting through criticism at Marquette and emerging as a very good college player. He was a hard worker who figured out how to contribute from day one and grew his game from that point to go from defensive role-player to best player on a conference championship winner. But I just don't think he's a NBA player.
I am rooting very hard for him to achieve his goal.
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I am rooting very hard for him to achieve his goal.
Pretty much everyone is. However I think realistically people realize that at best he's an end of the bench player.
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I love seeing Vander get shots during Summer League because it means there's interest.
But it's gotta stick soon or the eyes will be shifting elsewhere.
He's not having a good game today.
EDIT: He showed great form on the FTs made.
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I love seeing Vander get shots during Summer League because it means there's interest.
But it's gotta stick soon or the eyes will be shifting elsewhere.
He's not having a good game today.
EDIT: He showed great form on the FTs made.
Vander ended up with 23 7-13 fg 2-5 from 3 7-9 from line 4 steals 4 TO
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Vander ended up with 23 7-13 fg 2-5 from 3 7-9 from line 4 steals 4 TO
Vander also going to be playing in the Las Vegas Summer League for Dallas.
Hopefully he can translate his performance this summer into a tryout opportunity in the fall.
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Vander 2 NBA
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Vander 2 NBA
I agree with this analysis.
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Free Chicos 2016
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Vander playing at 3 today. Looks like he is playing for Dallas in the Las Vegas summer league as well. He will definitely get a lot of looks between both.
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Dallas signed Wes, "drafted" Jae and brought Jamil onto their summer league team last season. Somebody in Big D likes Marquette players. This could end up being Vander's best shot at sticking...although the Mavs giving Seth Curry a 2-year deal the other day doesn't help VB's chances.
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Dallas signed Wes, "drafted" Jae and brought Jamil onto their summer league team last season. Somebody in Big D likes Marquette players. This could end up being Vander's best shot at sticking...although the Mavs giving Seth Curry a 2-year deal the other day doesn't help VB's chances.
Some commentary from Vander at the Summer League.
http://www.nba.com/magic/video/teams/magic/2016/07/04/1467663425069-vanderblue070416.mp4-630970
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Dallas signed Wes, "drafted" Jae and brought Jamil onto their summer league team last season. Somebody in Big D likes Marquette players. This could end up being Vander's best shot at sticking...although the Mavs giving Seth Curry a 2-year deal the other day doesn't help VB's chances.
We should ask Mark Cuban for his thoughts on MUBB's schedule release strategy.
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I heard he is so upset about it that he won't even comment on it.
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Vander 16 points 7 rebounds and 3 assists. 2 steals 3 turnovers.
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Vander may end up benefitting from Wade deal as cap strapped teams look to find cheap alternatives
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Vander may end up benefitting from Wade deal as cap strapped teams look to find cheap alternatives
Lol. What are you talking about?
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Lol. What are you talking about?
Clearly the Bulls are going to sign Blue! ;)
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Clearly the Bulls are going to sign Blue! ;)
Here are summer league highlights so far. He is looking good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjMWuaNXgU8
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A mod from RealGM posted some insights from being at Orlando Summer League and talking to people from the Mavs:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1462642
Don't be surprised to see Vander Blue go to camp and pre-season. They really like his game and ability. All the PGs on the roster probably hurt his chances of making the team, but they'd like him in their D-League system.
Everyone's focused on the superstars aligning East/West in Cleveland and Golden State, but perhaps the real battle is North/South with Chicago and Dallas.
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A mod from RealGM posted some insights from being at Orlando Summer League and talking to people from the Mavs:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1462642
Everyone's focused on the superstars aligning East/West in Cleveland and Golden State, but perhaps the real battle is North/South with Chicago and Dallas.
So same story...different franchise.
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Damn! got to be tough living on a D league salary another year
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Clearly the Bulls are going to sign Blue! ;)
If a 34-year-old 6'4" SG with no outside game and no knees can make command $23MM/year, imagine what a 24-year-old 6'4" SG with no outside game and 2 good knees would get!
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If a 34-year-old 6'4" SG with no outside game and no knees can make command $23MM/year, imagine what a 24-year-old 6'4" SG with no outside game and 2 good knees would get!
Brilliant.
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Vander had 17 today. 3 assists. 3 boards and 5 turnovers. played 33 minutes. The Mavs are certainly giving him a very good opportunity minute wise.
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Heat signed a guard from their D League affiliate. Was hoping they would have signed Vander.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-rodney-mcgruder-s070716-story.html
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Vander continues to impress in Summer League
http://www.atthehive.com/2016/7/8/12128070/orlando-summer-league-day-7-charlotte-hornets-92-dallas-mavericks-97
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These weird obsessions have got to stop.
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These weird obsessions have got to stop.
Thought you might enjoy this from a fan who likes Vanders game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSLKsaThuHI
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Vander had another good day. 17 points 4 boards 6 assists 1 steal 3 turnovers. Got some good press again.
http://www.nba.com/magic/news/summer-league-recap-mavs-97-hornets-92
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Vander was a D-league AllStar two years running with the LA Defenders. That didn't get him a contract in the League so I don't know what will now.
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Vander was a D-league AllStar two years running with the LA Defenders. That didn't get him a contract in the League so I don't know what will now.
Watch some of the games, he is playing very well. This is his best chance to make it.
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Watch some of the games, he is playing very well. This is his best chance to make it.
He already made it. It just didn't last very long.
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He already made it. It just didn't last very long.
I will amend it. Best chance to make it for more than a cup of coffee.
It it doesn't happen this year then he needs to join DJO on that boat in Italy.
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His shot form is still hideous and he still turns the ball over a ton. I don't see any way he can shoot at a consistently good level in the NBA and he turns it over a ton in the summer league, so I don't see that being anything but a major problem in the NBA. Those 2 things don't equate to an NBA paycheck for an undersized guard.
Hopefully he realizes it and makes a ton of money overseas like he could.
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He already made it. It just didn't last very long.
I suspect most would define "made it" as getting a guaranteed contract (well) beyond 10 days. ;)
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"he still turns the ball over a ton."
is 2.5 to's per game a lot? just wondering. i'd like zero, but the guy is human. 44.5% fg % overall ain't bad, but could refine his 3 pt shooting which is just under 36%. jimmer fredette was at 38% wes mathews, kevin love, james harden, and many others(except kevin love) who are considered shooting guards at or below vander. yes he could improve his shooting percentages, but that could very well occur if 1) he wasn't the "go to" guy as he is on his team and 2) he becomes more aware of his limitations
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/in-a-shooters-league-380-percent-from-three-is-the-ultimate-team-goal/
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Vander playing for the Mavs Las Vegas Summer League team as well. They have their first game tonight at 9 cst.
Lets hope he can keep the momentum going he had in the Orlando League.
The Mavericks are giving him a chance to showcase his talents.
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I wonder if this is just something where Vander has no SINGLE NBA skill that exceptional enough to allow him to stick as a specialist? My sense is that's how teams decide on their end of bench players.
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I feel Vander will get some NBA minutes this season.
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I wonder if this is just something where Vander has no SINGLE NBA skill that exceptional enough to allow him to stick as a specialist? My sense is that's how teams decide on their end of bench players.
I would encourage people to invest the time to watch Vander play. He is demonstrating the skills , which taken as a whole ,are necessary to stick in the league. I think the story line about him is going to evolve. His ability to get to the rack is very strong.
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He already made it. It just didn't last very long.
Watched many D-Fenders games last year and vander was the marquee guy. He was top scorer and averaged somewhere in the mid 20's, if I remember well. I hope he makes it to the Big show but thought his two yrs. in Lakers D- league would have gotten him a contract.
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These weird obsessions have got to stop.
Imagine the reaction if Vander and Kostas went one-on-one. There would be exactly one subscriber if it was pay-per-view.
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Imagine the reaction if Vander and Kostas went one-on-one. There would be exactly one subscriber if it was pay-per-view.
I would attend in person.
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Some Vander related commentary from Dallas Fans
http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2016/7/9/12135746/a-definitive-ranking-of-the-most-interesting-mavericks-at-summer
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Vander not starting in the Las Vegas league. A bit disappointing. Par for the course with him though.
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Looks like Vander is heading toward a DNP coaches decision tonight. Looks like guys who played in the Orlando league are getting the night off for both teams.
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Watched many D-Fenders games last year and vander was the marquee guy. He was top scorer and averaged somewhere in the mid 20's, if I remember well. I hope he makes it to the Big show but thought his two yrs. in Lakers D- league would have gotten him a contract.
timing/being in the right place at the right time is huge in this league. just wanting to see a fellow warrior do well, that's all. not saying he is getting a raw deal or that he is going to be a star, just sending some warrior love and let the chips fall
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timing/being in the right place at the right time is huge in this league. just wanting to see a fellow warrior do well, that's all. not saying he is getting a raw deal or that he is going to be a star, just sending some warrior love and let the chips fall
I feel he has his head screwed on straight.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/video-vander-blue-on-bringing-leadership-to-the-court/
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I wonder if this is just something where Vander has no SINGLE NBA skill that exceptional enough to allow him to stick as a specialist? My sense is that's how teams decide on their end of bench players.
Exactly. I made this same point in a Vander thread a while back. He's very good at a lot of different things but he has no single skill that's at a consistent NBA level. Unfortunately, that's what he needs to have in order to land as a 10-12th man on an NBA roster.
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Vander got in the game today. 6 points in 18 minutes. 3-10 shooting . 2 assists 2 turnovers. Did not get a chance to watch it.
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Vegas Summer League is when the big draft names and young rooks get most of their PT.
I was at Las Vegas for Summer League when Wes was drafted, Jerel and DJ were on Summer League teams, and Trend was in town to check them out.
DJ didn't get much PT. Jerel did. Wes did.
It was the summer when Blake Griffin was doling out dunks as the Clippers #1 pick and Jeremy Lin was getting his court burn for the Dubs!
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Vegas Summer League is when the big draft names and young rooks get most of their PT.
I was at Las Vegas for Summer League when Wes was drafted, Jerel and DJ were on Summer League teams, and Trend was in town to check them out.
DJ didn't get much PT. Jerel did. Wes did.
It was the summer when Blake Griffin was doling out dunks as the Clippers #1 pick and Jeremy Lin was getting his court burn for the Dubs!
I think Dallas very fair to Vander in Orlando and gave him max minutes and let him totally showcase himself. Anything he gets in Vegas is gravy.
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Vander didn't play well at all today.
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Vander is a European player, and there's nothing wrong with that. The sooner he realizes it the better. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "There's no room for a shooting guard who can't shoot in the NBA" regarding his game, I'd be a rich man.
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Vander is a European player, and there's nothing wrong with that. The sooner he realizes it the better. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "There's no room for a shooting guard who can't shoot in the NBA" regarding his game, I'd be a rich man.
I know, and I really like Vander too, or at least like him a lot more recently than right after he left MU.
On the other hand, Nader is having a great summer leage. Unbelievably efficient and playing great defense. Giving Stevens and co. something to think about.
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Vander is a European player, and there's nothing wrong with that. The sooner he realizes it the better. If I had a dollar for every time I said, "There's no room for a shooting guard who can't shoot in the NBA" regarding his game, I'd be a rich man.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with You.
Vander did well in Orlando when they handed him the car keys, but now that he is in a situation where he is in competition with better players, his deficiencies are being exposed. I feel bad about this as it was probably his best chance to make the league.
In addition to not being able to make his shots, it is very clear he is lacking the physical strength. All of those flashy drives to the basketball are going to be challenged by guys with significant strength in an actual NBA game.
Vander may do well enough to get a training camp deal with some team but that will be it. He could go through life being a D League player and every once in a while getting a 10 day contract when some team is desperate because of injuries, but that is not a great way to live. There is talk of D League pay going up but that has not happened as of yet.
I think he would be far better off financially utilizing his status as a top D League player to get a nice contract in Europe with a team that actually pays their players. DJO, who truly is a much better player than Vander ,has bit the bullet and seems to be enjoying life over there.
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Milwaukee playing Dallas tonight 9 central time.
Thon Maker versus Vander
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Vander can hardly get a break, he scores twice in a row on nice jumpers and the damn ESPN people are interviewing Mark Cuban
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He pushes off with that left arm a lot. His jumper is pretty good now, but he's having a tough time getting to the rim.
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He pushes off with that left arm a lot. His jumper is pretty good now, but he's having a tough time getting to the rim.
He forced quite a few drives and got stripped . When he let the game come to him he made some nice moves to the rack, he is trying his hardest that is for sure .
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Vander summer league game. 9 points on 4 of 9 shooting 5 boards 3 assists in 24 minutes. One more game tomorrow ( this is a correction)
At some point the next news will be if he makes a training camp roster.
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Vander 12 points4 boards in 16 minutes 4-10 from field .
Hopefully he gets some interest from top Euro teams
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For comparisons sake, former Illini guard Brandon Paul got a partially guaranteed contract with training camp invite from the Sixers. I went to high school with BP and saw him play in college. Vander is bigger and better. He's got to get a training camp invite somewhere!
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For comparisons sake, former Illini guard Brandon Paul got a partially guaranteed contract with training camp invite from the Sixers. I went to high school with BP and saw him play in college. Vander is bigger and better. He's got to get a training camp invite somewhere!
Vander did well in the Orlando Summer League but he did not do well in the Las Vegas Summer League. On the other hand,Brandon Paul had a good performance in the Las Vegas League. Hopefully, teams look at Vanders full track record the last couple years.
I still believe his future is Overseas. Vander is a very solid player but as many others have pointed out on this site, he does not have that one good to skill that can get him into the NBA permanently.
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An Analysis of the Mavs summer league.
http://allthingsmavs.sportsblog.com/posts/21882779/mavs-summer-league--who-showed-up--who-let-down----who-gets-a-2nd-chance-.html
Will be interesting to see if Vander gets the training camp invite.
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I'd love for Blue to have an opportunity to be mentored by Wes.
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I'd love for Blue to have an opportunity to be mentored by Wes.
I agree with this analysis.
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I'd love for Blue to have an opportunity to be mentored by Wes.
It successful, it would be the Madison-Marquette connection. Red Rodents would not like the sound of that. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This should help Vander one less fringe player competing for last NBA spot.
http://nypost.com/2016/08/02/jimmer-fredettes-days-of-d-league-flair-nba-cameos-are-over/
However, I think Vander should follow Jimmer and Buycks and go the same route. China till seasons over and then return to D League.