MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Marcus92 on May 06, 2016, 03:16:12 PM
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Here we go again. Y'all ready for this?
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15470707/houston-cougars-memphis-tigers-boise-state-broncos-possible-candidates-big-12-college-football-expansion
In a presentation to athletic directors and football coaches, a research firm concluded that having 12 teams would give the Big 12 the best chance of making the college football playoff. That would require adding 2 new teams. ESPN speculates about the prospects of the following schools joining the conference:
BYU
Boise St.
UCF
Cincinnati
Colorado St.
Connecticut
Houston
Memphis
USF
Tulane
Maybe this is simply offseason click-fodder. But it almost feels like ESPN is actively campaigning for the AAC to be ripped apart just a few years after its formation. Big surprise. I'm thankful we left when we did.
If I was a Big 12 fan or cared at all about college football, I don't know that I'd get excited about any of these teams. Houston? Tulane? Seriously? It's like like looking at the standings for Conference USA 3.0. Good luck to the Big 12 — you're gonna need it.
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The Big 12 completely f**ked itself over by letting Texas roll over them. It started a landslide whereby four schools left the conference, and left them where they are right now.
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Here we go again. Y'all ready for this?
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15470707/houston-cougars-memphis-tigers-boise-state-broncos-possible-candidates-big-12-college-football-expansion
In a presentation to athletic directors and football coaches, a research firm concluded that having 12 teams would give the Big 12 the best chance of making the college football playoff. That would require adding 2 new teams. ESPN speculates about the prospects of the following schools joining the conference:
BYU
Boise St.
UCF
Cincinnati
Colorado St.
Connecticut
Houston
Memphis
USF
Tulane
Maybe this is simply offseason click-fodder. But it almost feels like ESPN is actively campaigning for the AAC to be ripped apart just a few years after its formation. Big surprise. I'm thankful we left when we did.
If I was a Big 12 fan or cared at all about college football, I don't know that I'd get excited about any of these teams. Houston? Tulane? Seriously? It's like like looking at the standings for Conference USA 3.0. Good luck to the Big 12 — you're gonna need it.
There are only 4 legitimate candidates on this list:
Cincy - their President has spent a lot of money lobbying to get into the Big 12. Geographically it works with WVU, pretty strong department across the board.
BYU - Fits with current geography, wouldn't need to increase their budget, brings a huge viewing audience.
Memphis - Football on the upswing, new TV market, decent fit geographically with WVU
Colorado State - huge increase in budget the past few years, new on-campus football stadium, geographic fit, gets the Big 12 back in the Denver market. They fired a previous AD because they were not being mentioned in conference realignment talk.
Boise State - on the fringe of a legit candidate for membership but not quite there yet.
One team will be east of the Mississippi to bridge the geographic gap with WVU. UConn is just too far removed and football sucks.
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If the Big 12 would just poach two ACC schools (Florida St and Clemson), then Uconn and Cincy could find homes in the ACC and everyone would be happy. Then this whole conference realignment madness would go away. Boise and BYU might find themselves left out, but they could always become #13 and #14 in the Big 12 or Pac 12 without disrupting the status quo too much. No one else on this list really deserves a spot at the big boys table.
That said, if the Big 12 looks west Colorado St is an interesting option with the new stadium and the Denver media market, which they lost when the Buffs headed to the Pac 12
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Not all of these choices are terrible, although some certainly are.
I think BYU and Colorado State both make a lot of sense. It makes sense for the Big 12 to have 12 teams, for a whole bunch of reasons besides the name.
This is one instance of conference expansion that I don't think is all that crazy.
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There are only 4 legitimate candidates on this list:
Cincy - their President has spent a lot of money lobbying to get into the Big 12. Geographically it works with WVU, pretty strong department across the board.
BYU - Fits with current geography, wouldn't need to increase their budget, brings a huge viewing audience.
Memphis - Football on the upswing, new TV market, decent fit geographically with WVU
Colorado State - huge increase in budget the past few years, new on-campus football stadium, geographic fit, gets the Big 12 back in the Denver market. They fired a previous AD because they were not being mentioned in conference realignment talk.
If by "legit" you mean "less depressing than the alternatives" then yes.
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If the Big 12 would just poach two ACC schools (Florida St and Clemson), then Uconn and Cincy could find homes in the ACC and everyone would be happy. Then this whole conference realignment madness would go away. Boise and BYU might find themselves left out, but they could always become #13 and #14 in the Big 12 or Pac 12 without disrupting the status quo too much. No one else on this list really deserves a spot at the big boys table.
That said, if the Big 12 looks west Colorado St is an interesting option with the new stadium and the Denver media market, which they lost when the Buffs headed to the Pac 12
Conference Realignment will never end. Not as long as there's more money to grab. Also, not convinced that UConn would get the ACC invite. They could be left in the cold...again
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A couple responses from around the web:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/25577058/expansion-would-improve-big-12s-playoff-chances-by-10-15-percent
Dennis Dodd at CBS Sports takes a decidedly less speculative approach than ESPN. "[Improvement commissioner] Bowlsby reiterated that a decision — whatever it is — needs to be made this year." So, it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not, just make a decision soon. Sounds like a great approach.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/5/5/11593896/big-12-conference-realignment-teams-please-just-stop-i-want-to-go-to-bed
A pretty funny take on the Big 12's drawn-out expansion talks. SBNation even adds a few new candidates, including Wichita State: "They don't even have a football team. Give the Shockers a football team, Big 12, then add it to your conference. I just want this to stop."
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Conference Realignment will never end. Not as long as there's more money to grab. Also, not convinced that UConn would get the ACC invite. They could be left in the cold...again
Jim Delaney will not rest until the Big Ten is at 20 teams and the ACC and/or Big 12 cease to exist.
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I agree with Mandel and (gasp) Clay Travis...this is the worst conference expansion idea yet.
Expand the playoff to 8 teams, no expansion needed, problem solved.
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Conference Realignment will never end. Not as long as there's more money to grab. Also, not convinced that UConn would get the ACC invite. They could be left in the cold...again
This.
As long there's an extra dollar to be made, these conferences will continue to spin. I'm sure in a couple of years, we'll see the Big 10 make a play (again) for Virginia, UNC and Georgia Tech. The Pac-12 will probably chase (again) Texas and perhaps Oklahoma. And of course, there's always the Notre Dame issue.
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Big 12 made a big mistake when they didn't invite West Virginia, Louisville, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati as a group in 2011. They dragged their feet and only took WVU. If they snagged them, they would be higher in the pecking order than the ACC.
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Someone on the UConn board copied a tweet from the study that listed the options from biggest impact to smallest for revenue growth.
1) UConn
2) BYU
3) Cincinnati
4) UCF
5) ECU (go figure?!)
6) etc.
Also saw that 14 for football increased Big 12 playoff chances by 25%, 12 only by 15%. Big12 was considering 2 all sports additions and 2 football only.
Also read a rumor ACC may be considering expansion to keep Big 12 out of NYC and off the east coast.
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Also saw that 14 for football increased Big 12 playoff chances by 25%, 12 only by 15%. Big12 was considering 2 all sports additions and 2 football only.
I couldn't find the actual report. So I have no idea how they came up with those projections. Seems like it depends on which teams you add, not just how many.
In another article, an ESPN reporter suggested that expanding to 16 teams for the Power 5 conferences is going to happen — once TV grant-of-rights contracts end in 8 to 9 years. "At that point, everything gets shuffled around...that will be the final major move for realignment, even if the Big 12 does decide to go to 12 in the next year or two."
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865653580/Report-Expansion-would-increase-Big-12s-chances-of-a-College-Football-Playoff-bid-by-10-15-percent.html?pg=all
Round and round it goes, where it stops...
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The Big 12 completely f**ked itself over by letting Texas roll over them. It started a landslide whereby four schools left the conference, and left them where they are right now.
I agree with this analysis.
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What about Mizzou and Nebraska? They're good football teams that are geographically aligned!
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I couldn't find the actual report. So I have no idea how they came up with those projections. Seems like it depends on which teams you add, not just how many.
In another article, an ESPN reporter suggested that expanding to 16 teams for the Power 5 conferences is going to happen — once TV grant-of-rights contracts end in 8 to 9 years. "At that point, everything gets shuffled around...that will be the final major move for realignment, even if the Big 12 does decide to go to 12 in the next year or two."
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865653580/Report-Expansion-would-increase-Big-12s-chances-of-a-College-Football-Playoff-bid-by-10-15-percent.html?pg=all
Round and round it goes, where it stops...
Lot of chatter on Twitter about all the possibilities. A few that claim to have sources inside B12 and B1G have been tweeting out blurbs about these reports.
Although it is all speculation, what seems to be gaining steam (and who knows how reliable any of it is):
1. B12 is going to expand, and likely something happening this summer. Reports coming back that they need more membership to remain competitive financially with the networks and on the field for making the playoffs. Who they grab is the question.
- They may just grab some G5 teams--between 2 and 4 would be my guess.
- They poach some ACC teams. (See below)
- Some combo of the two, perhaps adding two G5 this year and then waiting for possible ACC implosion.
2. Rumors are that ACC teams are not happy with ESPN bc of failure to launch ACCN as promised in their last contract negotiations. Several may be looking for greener pastures. Speculation that the ACC GOR is voided by ESPN's failure to set up ACCN by sometime this year, and that some of the flagship institutions may be looking to bolt.
3. If 2 is true, the speculation is some group of teams including UNC, UVA, Duke, GT, possibly ND and/or FSU (I have trouble believing the last one) could all end up getting poached by B1G. If that happens, look for B12 to try to grab Clemson, VT, etc.
4. Who knows what happens beyond that. ACC remnants probably fold in with whatever remains from AAC at that point. Lots of ways those dominoes all fall.
But, could all be wild speculation. My guess is 1 happens in some form. Beyond that, we'll see...
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In another article, an ESPN reporter suggested that expanding to 16 teams for the Power 5 conferences is going to happen — once TV grant-of-rights contracts end in 8 to 9 years. "At that point, everything gets shuffled around...that will be the final major move for realignment, even if the Big 12 does decide to go to 12 in the next year or two."
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865653580/Report-Expansion-would-increase-Big-12s-chances-of-a-College-Football-Playoff-bid-by-10-15-percent.html?pg=all
Round and round it goes, where it stops...
Could be - but let's see if the cord cutters getting off satellite and cable do escalate in those 8-9 years and if a new model still allows the silly money being paid out. By then private models have 1-3rd of universities going bankrupt, and if that is happening and sports money is finally retreating, we could be looking at a different model that does not make joining a conference out of your geographic area make sense.
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Could be - but let's see if the cord cutters getting off satellite and cable do escalate in those 8-9 years and if a new model still allows the silly money being paid out. By then private models have 1-3rd of universities going bankrupt, and if that is happening and sports money is finally retreating, we could be looking at a different model that does not make joining a conference out of your geographic area make sense.
I think that cord cutters number will continue to escalate. More and more are tired of paying for channels they never watch. Include me on that list. Even as a sports fan, I can't wait to eliminate ESPN. Have to believe all these insanely large sports TV contacts will begin shrinking. Couldn't happen to a nicer group.
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Jim Delaney will not rest until the Big Ten is at 20 teams, the SEC is at 20 teams, the Pac 12 is at 20 teams and the ACC and/or Big 12 NCAA ceases to exist.
FIFY
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Lot of chatter on Twitter about all the possibilities. A few that claim to have sources inside B12 and B1G have been tweeting out blurbs about these reports.
Although it is all speculation, what seems to be gaining steam (and who knows how reliable any of it is):
1. B12 is going to expand, and likely something happening this summer. Reports coming back that they need more membership to remain competitive financially with the networks and on the field for making the playoffs. Who they grab is the question.
- They may just grab some G5 teams--between 2 and 4 would be my guess.
- They poach some ACC teams. (See below)
- Some combo of the two, perhaps adding two G5 this year and then waiting for possible ACC implosion.
2. Rumors are that ACC teams are not happy with ESPN bc of failure to launch ACCN as promised in their last contract negotiations. Several may be looking for greener pastures. Speculation that the ACC GOR is voided by ESPN's failure to set up ACCN by sometime this year, and that some of the flagship institutions may be looking to bolt.
3. If 2 is true, the speculation is some group of teams including UNC, UVA, Duke, GT, possibly ND and/or FSU (I have trouble believing the last one) could all end up getting poached by B1G. If that happens, look for B12 to try to grab Clemson, VT, etc.
4. Who knows what happens beyond that. ACC remnants probably fold in with whatever remains from AAC at that point. Lots of ways those dominoes all fall.
But, could all be wild speculation. My guess is 1 happens in some form. Beyond that, we'll see...
Great stuff. Thanks. In regards to 2. I haven't seen the contracts or GOR, but that sounds like a winnable case in terms of getting out of the GOR. If the GOR is gone, I could definitely see 3 happening.
I would assume, UNC, Duke, UVa and either ND or GT to the Big10.
I agree on Clemson, VT to Big12 and would add Louisville and Pitt.
SEC picks up Miami and Florida State.
Remaining teams pretty much screwed. Could see BC/Wake dropping football if that all went down.
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The last time the conference alignment landscape experienced a tectonic shift, the Big 12 nearly disintegrated — with speculation that basketball blue blood Kansas might get left without a home.
I always thought the ACC sat higher on the pecking order of college football powers than the Big 12. Do I have that wrong? Or is a better way of thinking about it something like:
Big 10/SEC > ACC > Big 12
That makes the ACC's best teams more attractive to the Big 10 and SEC — making the ACC more likely to be raided and left in shambles.
The idea of ACC schools leaving the conference over a broken promise from ESPN only adds to the confusion. Unlike the Big East, where the fault lines ran between the football and non-football schools, here it seems like the rift is between the haves and have-nots. Or something like that. I'm not sure I understand this part of the story at all.
College football is evil.
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The last time the conference alignment landscape experienced a tectonic shift, the Big 12 nearly disintegrated — with speculation that basketball blue blood Kansas might get left without a home.
I always thought the ACC sat higher on the pecking order of college football powers than the Big 12. Do I have that wrong? Or is a better way of thinking about it something like:
Big 10/SEC > ACC > Big 12
That makes the ACC's best teams more attractive to the Big 10 and SEC — making the ACC more likely to be raided and left in shambles.
The idea of ACC schools leaving the conference over a broken promise from ESPN only adds to the confusion. Unlike the Big East, where the fault lines ran between the football and non-football schools, here it seems like the rift is between the haves and have-nots. Or something like that. I'm not sure I understand this part of the story at all.
College football is evil.
Big 12 is and has always been higher on the pecking order of college football than the ACC. The inverse is true in basketball.
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The last time the conference alignment landscape experienced a tectonic shift, the Big 12 nearly disintegrated — with speculation that basketball blue blood Kansas might get left without a home.
I always thought the ACC sat higher on the pecking order of college football powers than the Big 12. Do I have that wrong? Or is a better way of thinking about it something like:
Big 10/SEC > ACC > Big 12
That makes the ACC's best teams more attractive to the Big 10 and SEC — making the ACC more likely to be raided and left in shambles.
The idea of ACC schools leaving the conference over a broken promise from ESPN only adds to the confusion. Unlike the Big East, where the fault lines ran between the football and non-football schools, here it seems like the rift is between the haves and have-nots. Or something like that. I'm not sure I understand this part of the story at all.
College football is evil.
Agreed.
While the ACC is higher up in the pecking order than the Big 12, the Big 12 has more prestigious and desired athletic programs. Texas and Oklahoma are more valuable than a majority of the schools in the ACC. Unfortunately, those two schools that are keeping the Big 12 together are also the two entities that are ripping it apart. They want more money, exposure and, most importantly, want to remain competitive with the other big dogs in college football.
Texas will always look out for Texas, first and foremost. They could care less about the productivity and growth of the Big 12 - and there lies the ever-constant problem (not unlike Notre Dame/Big East scenario). Schools like TCU, Baylor and Texas Tech need Texas to remain relevant and in a strong conference.
Whether or not the Big 12 expands or not, the conference will still remain unstable and ripe for raiding or implosion. It would be in the best interests for all parties for Texas to be independent in football (keeping the Longhorn Network), and for the other schools to be assimilated by the other power conferences. That would create a Power-4 (with 4 spots for the CFP - each conference getting a guaranteed position).
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Big 12 is and has always been higher on the pecking order of college football than the ACC. The inverse is true in basketball.
Somehow I never thought about it that way — at least from the football perspective. But now it seems obvious. Florida State, Clemson, UNC, Pitt and Miami are no match for Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Baylor and Texas.
I understand that college football drives everything in the conference realignment game. Yet, as a college basketball fan who doesn't care about college football, it can still be difficult to see things from that perspective. It's like an alternate universe. Or Bizarro World.
All the more proof that Marquette and the rest of the C7 made the right choice.
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Texas and Oklahoma are more valuable than a majority of the schools in the ACC. Unfortunately, those two schools that are keeping the Big 12 together are also the two entities that are ripping it apart.
Texas will always look out for Texas, first and foremost. They could care less about the productivity and growth of the Big 12 - and there lies the ever-constant problem (not unlike Notre Dame/Big East scenario). Schools like TCU, Baylor and Texas Tech need Texas to remain relevant and in a strong conference.
Whether the Big 12 expands or not, the conference will still remain unstable and ripe for raiding or implosion.
Great points.
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Agreed.
While the ACC is higher up in the pecking order than the Big 12, the Big 12 has more prestigious and desired athletic programs. Texas and Oklahoma are more valuable than a majority of the schools in the ACC. Unfortunately, those two schools that are keeping the Big 12 together are also the two entities that are ripping it apart. They want more money, exposure and, most importantly, want to remain competitive with the other big dogs in college football.
Texas will always look out for Texas, first and foremost. They could care less about the productivity and growth of the Big 12 - and there lies the ever-constant problem (not unlike Notre Dame/Big East scenario). Schools like TCU, Baylor and Texas Tech need Texas to remain relevant and in a strong conference.
Whether or not the Big 12 expands or not, the conference will still remain unstable and ripe for raiding or implosion. It would be in the best interests for all parties for Texas to be independent in football (keeping the Longhorn Network), and for the other schools to be assimilated by the other power conferences. That would create a Power-4 (with 4 spots for the CFP - each conference getting a guaranteed position).
The two core schools of Big 12 football are Texas and Oklahoma. As long as they are doing well, the Big 12 is going to be a premier football conference. Anything that Baylor and OSU bring to the table will then be icing on the cake. They made a smart move to get TCU which has been strong in the last 15 years although much of that has been in a lesser conference. If they can demonstrate 11 win plus consistency in the Big 12 a few more years then add them in with Texas and Oklahoma.
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The acc and big 12 have yet to poach from each other. Eventually that will change. I think the Big 12 comes out on top. The ACC will be forced to poach the aac and the aac will be firmly in the mid major status. I think UConn will still be stuck there when the dust settles
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The two core schools of Big 12 football are Texas and Oklahoma. As long as they are doing well, the Big 12 is going to be a premier football conference. Anything that Baylor and OSU bring to the table will then be icing on the cake. They made a smart move to get TCU which has been strong in the last 15 years although much of that has been in a lesser conference. If they can demonstrate 11 win plus consistency in the Big 12 a few more years then add them in with Texas and Oklahoma.
But they aren't doing as well as member schools in the B1G and the SEC - and that's what they recognize will dramatically hurt them in the long run. The fact that schools like Rutgers, Maryland, Purdue, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and other weaker football programs will be making more from TV deals over Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Baylor, TCU, West Virginia and Texas Tech is an excruciating wound that cannot be stitched up by adding a Cincinnati or a Memphis or a Houston. There is no school out there that will allow them to move the needle in terms of football competitiveness, market-size, viewership or fan-following.
The writing is on the wall - it was the message that Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri all figured out: the Big 12, long-term, is not a sustainable football conference compared to the B1G, SEC and PAC-12. As long as the ACC still has Florida State, Clemson, Miami, Virginia Tech and Notre Dame (albeit partially), they will remain as a power conference - and none of those schools will risk leaving the ACC to join the chaos of the Big 12 under Texas (so the ACC is safe for now). The Old Big East was doomed when they lost Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College. It was the crack in the hull of the ship that allowed the boat to start taking on water and begin sinking - leading to later defections of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, West Virginia, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and the C7 (and the destruction of Big East Football permanently).
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I prefer to think of it as the liberation from Big East football ;D
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The other parallel between the current Big 12 and the old Big East is the inability of the conference members to agree on candidate(s) for expansion.
In the old Big East, the league spent years arguing with each other and itself over whether to expand and who to expand with. The football schools loved East Carolina - for it's North Carolina location, huge football stadium and strong recruiting area. The C7 were adamantly opposed to them for obvious reasons, namely for its infamously poor basketball program. The football schools (minus USF) really liked UCF - for it's Florida location, up-and-coming football program and strong recruiting area. The C7, like ECU, hated the idea of yet another weak basketball program bringing down the basketball league. Conversely, the C7 actually supported Memphis - who had a very strong basketball program under John Calipari and even made an NCAA Championship game appearance in 2008. However, the football schools hated Memphis for its traditionally weak football program and low support. No one could agree on what course of action to take. Ultimately, the lack of additions/vision for the league led to dysfunction and its eventual demise.
Today, the Big 12 can't agree on whether to expand (mostly due to Texas) and what schools to add. Do they add Cincinnati to help bridge the gap to West Virginia? Do they add the best available football program, in BYU, as a football-only? Do they extend their footprint even further in order to get UConn (and possibly access to the NYC market)? Do they dip their feet into Florida with additions of UCF/USF? Do they try and regain the Denver market by adding Colorado State?
Personally, I'd be shocked to see the 10-schools unite and agree on two full-member additions. There's no chance that Texas allows the Longhorn Network to be converted into a Big 12 network - they get too much money and branding from it. Each school has its own agenda and each school has its personal choices for the betterment of the conference (mostly themselves).
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The other parallel between the current Big 12 and the old Big East is the inability of the conference members to agree on candidate(s) for expansion.
Another great post. After the C7 broke away, it was remarkable how united the school presidents were in talking about their common focus. Just the opposite is true of the Big 12. If anything unites them, it's fear of being left behind. But that still hasn't been enough to bring the conference together under one clear direction.
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The writing is on the wall - it was the message that Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri all figured out: the Big 12, long-term, is not a sustrightble football conference compared to the B1G, SEC and PAC-12. As long as the ACC still has Florida State, Clemson, Miami, Virginia Tech and Notre Dame (albeit partially), they will remain as a power conference - and none of those schools will risk leaving the ACC to join the chaos of the Big 12 under Texas (so the ACC is safe for now). The Old Big East was doomed when they lost Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College. It was the crack in the hull of the ship that allowed the boat to start taking on water and begin sinking - leading to later defections of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, West Virginia, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and the C7 (and the destruction of Big East Football permanently).
Why does s-u-s-t-a-i-n-a-b-l-e autocorrect to sustrightble?
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Why does s-u-s-t-a-i-n-a-b-l-e autocorrect to sustrightble?
Its got to be because of the a'in-a right?
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Its got to be because of the a'in-a right?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/104vPBH8buV9vy/giphy.gif)
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But they aren't doing as well as member schools in the B1G and the SEC - and that's what they recognize will dramatically hurt them in the long run. The fact that schools like Rutgers, Maryland, Purdue, Indiana, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and other weaker football programs will be making more from TV deals over Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Baylor, TCU, West Virginia and Texas Tech is an excruciating wound that cannot be stitched up by adding a Cincinnati or a Memphis or a Houston. There is no school out there that will allow them to move the needle in terms of football competitiveness, market-size, viewership or fan-following.
The writing is on the wall - it was the message that Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri all figured out: the Big 12, long-term, is not a sustrightble football conference compared to the B1G, SEC and PAC-12. As long as the ACC still has Florida State, Clemson, Miami, Virginia Tech and Notre Dame (albeit partially), they will remain as a power conference - and none of those schools will risk leaving the ACC to join the chaos of the Big 12 under Texas (so the ACC is safe for now). The Old Big East was doomed when they lost Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College. It was the crack in the hull of the ship that allowed the boat to start taking on water and begin sinking - leading to later defections of Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, West Virginia, Notre Dame, Rutgers, and the C7 (and the destruction of Big East Football permanently).
I agree that Texas is a source of instability in the B 12 conference. I also agree that it is highly unlikely that any ACC team will leave, if for no other reason than the breakup fee is enormous. My sense is if the Big 12 expands it will pick up Cincinnati , which has made a very big commitment to being an athletic powerhouse. Their football and basketball programs are historically competitive and the geography helps bridge the gap with West Virginia. They would also pick up Colorado State which as you mention brings back Denver market and also has upgraded athletically and has the look and feel of other Big 12 Schools.
I think the Big 12 will continue to be a very strong basketball conference, although it is football that drives the expansion decisions. .
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Longhorns suck
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Great stuff. Thanks. In regards to 2. I haven't seen the contracts or GOR, but that sounds like a winnable case in terms of getting out of the GOR. If the GOR is gone, I could definitely see 3 happening.
I would assume, UNC, Duke, UVa and either ND or GT to the Big10.
I agree on Clemson, VT to Big12 and would add Louisville and Pitt.
SEC picks up Miami and Florida State.
Remaining teams pretty much screwed. Could see BC/Wake dropping football if that all went down.
Would ND really go to the Big 10 and give up football independence? I doubt they would get the same arrangement they got with the ACC...
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There is no way on God's green earth that ND would get a special arrangement with the B10.
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There is no way on God's green earth that ND would get a special arrangement with the B10.
That was my point. Which means if the ACC actually does implode, is there a sliver of hope we could get them back in the Big East for all other sports?
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That was my point. Which means if the ACC actually does implode, is there a sliver of hope we could get them back in the Big East for all other sports?
I would think so. They may not be able to park their football team in a quasi-membership like relationship like they currently have with the ACC. They may have to be either all in, or completely independent in football.
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I think a best case scenario would be an ACC implosion (the best programs leaving for Big 10) and the remainder merging with AAC schools (UConn, Cincy, Memphis).
Out of that we would have a shot for Notre Dame's non-football sports and any schools that decided football was not viable going foward with the new realignment (Wake or BC, and perhaps even UConn if they don't get picked up)
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I think a best case scenario would be an ACC implosion (the best programs leaving for Big 10) and the remainder merging with AAC schools (UConn, Cincy, Memphis).
Out of that we would have a shot for Notre Dame's non-football sports and any schools that decided football was not viable going foward with the new realignment (Wake or BC, and perhaps even UConn if they don't get picked up)
If the ACC implodes and replaces schools like Florida State, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc with schools from the American, then they will end up getting American level TV money. Schools like UConn, BC, Wake, and maybe even Duke, Pitt, and Cuse will need to take a hard look at their commitment to football. The conference landscape will change significantly in the next 10 years. Gotta make sure the BEast is ready to be takers, not the taken.
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If the ACC implodes and replaces schools like Florida State, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc with schools from the American, then they will end up getting American level TV money. Schools like UConn, BC, Wake, and maybe even Duke, Pitt, and Cuse will need to take a hard look at their commitment to football. The conference landscape will change significantly in the next 10 years. Gotta make sure the BEast is ready to be takers, not the taken.
Agreed.
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Even if the ACC were to implode - let's say Virginia, UNC, Duke and Georgia Tech to the B1G; NC State and Virginia Tech to SEC - then the remaining schools: Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Wake Forest, Clemson, Florida State, Miami would likely just merge with the Big 12 to form a 4th power conference. Notre Dame would likely get to keep its scheduling agreement with them (B1G would certainly require full membership), and it would keep playing games in the Northeast, Southeast and, now, Southwest.
No way the ACC willingly chooses to backfill with ECU, Tulane, UCF, USF, Memphis and the rest of the Conference USA/American call-ups.
Schools have seen the green in football. Like a compulsive gambler, none of these schools will willingly decide to shut down or de-emphasize football. They have tasted the allure and grandeur of college football. They won't turn away from that - unless state governments mandate to them that they need to do that. It would be a death sentence for that President, AD, faculty and entire administration.
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I don't think the big 12 would have any interest in merging with the acc. They would cherry pick the best remaining schools and leave the crap behind. The acc would have no choice but to call up aac teams.
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Even if the ACC were to implode - let's say Virginia, UNC, Duke and Georgia Tech to the B1G; NC State and Virginia Tech to SEC - then the remaining schools: Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Wake Forest, Clemson, Florida State, Miami would likely just merge with the Big 12 to form a 4th power conference. Notre Dame would likely get to keep its scheduling agreement with them (B1G would certainly require full membership), and it would keep playing games in the Northeast, Southeast and, now, Southwest.
No way the ACC willingly chooses to backfill with ECU, Tulane, UCF, USF, Memphis and the rest of the Conference USA/American call-ups.
Didn't they say the same thing about the Big East during its last few years as a football conference?
I can't see a wholesale merging of the two conferences (ACC and B12). The B12 isn't going to just take the whole lot of whatever remains from the ACC, especially with a few duds in there. If some ACC schools join the B1G, some schools (VT, NCSt., Clemson, etc.) could end up in the B12 (and maybe in the SEC, although the rumors I'm reading are saying that is currently unlikely), but there would be some remnants left behind in the ACC (e.g., I've heard nothing mentioned about Wake Forest, BC, Pitt, Syracuse, etc.). The B12 will pick and choose the best products (with maybe a few from G5 schools mixed in), and leave the rest behind knowing that whatever remains in the ACC will be basically irrelevant.
So, the question then is what the leftovers do. They'd surely want to keep the ACC brand, which is more valuable than either the American or CUSA brands. But, they'll likely need additional schools to fill out the conference, so they'll pick the best of what they can from AAC/CUSA.
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I thought I read during previous conference raids that UNC and NC State have to be a package deal due to NC law.
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Not due to state law, but due to having a Board of Governors that oversee both institutions. (As opposed to Texas, where UT and TAMU are overseen by separate boards.)
Is the Board going to allow one school to leave, while the other lies behind in a languishing conference?
There was a political firestorm when the ACC expanded and they wanted to take Syracuse, BC and Miami. Virginia Tech eventually got in there due to pressure on the University of Virginia, and Syracuse had to wait.
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Not due to state law, but due to having a Board of Governors that oversee both institutions. (As opposed to Texas, where UT and TAMU are overseen by separate boards.)
Is the Board going to allow one school to leave, while the other lies behind in a languishing conference?
There was a political firestorm when the ACC expanded and they wanted to take Syracuse, BC and Miami. Virginia Tech eventually got in there due to pressure on the University of Virginia, and Syracuse had to wait.
From what I've read, the concern from the state/board is less about necessarily keeping them in the same conference, and more about making sure that both have viable homes for the future. So, for instance, if NC was going to move to B1G along with a number of the other top-tier schools, decimating the ACC, then they'd want to make sure that NCSt could end up in the B12 or SEC. So, as long as the powers-that-be in North Carolina feel like both schools end up in a sustain-able situation, it is less important that they remain in the same conference. That could cause problems, though, if NCSt can't work its way into either the B12 or SEC.
I have read some recent rumors as well, however, that UNC's recent academic issues could end up making it harder for the B1G to take them on. So who knows what exactly will happen.
The ACC is having their spring meetings this week, and one of the main topics is the ACCN. Will be interesting to hear what comes out of those discussions.
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From what I've read, the concern from the state/board is less about necessarily keeping them in the same conference, and more about making sure that both have viable homes for the future. So, for instance, if NC was going to move to B1G along with a number of the other top-tier schools, decimating the ACC, then they'd want to make sure that NCSt could end up in the B12 or SEC. So, as long as the powers-that-be in North Carolina feel like both schools end up in a sustain-able situation, it is less important that they remain in the same conference. That could cause problems, though, if NCSt can't work its way into either the B12 or SEC.
Thank you and that makes sense.
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I have read some recent rumors as well, however, that UNC's recent academic issues could end up making it harder for the B1G to take them on. So who knows what exactly will happen.
It all depends on if UNC's AAU rating would remain intact. If not, I don't think the B1G touches them, which makes this thing get all sorts of interesting.
What will make this all fascinating is what role the content delivery companies (ESPN/ABC, Fox, NBC, etc) play in making this terrible. It's an open secret that ESPN manipulated Syracuse and Louisville into killing the BEast deal so that ESPN could get an expanded ACC for football and basketball. So how does Fox, ESPN, etc manipulate these conferences into making decisions that might have short term contract positives but are not stable long term.
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I think a best case scenario would be an ACC implosion (the best programs leaving for Big 10) and the remainder merging with AAC schools (UConn, Cincy, Memphis).
Out of that we would have a shot for Notre Dame's non-football sports and any schools that decided football was not viable going foward with the new realignment (Wake or BC, and perhaps even UConn if they don't get picked up)
I don't ever see an ACC implosion. The conference is very focused and the parties involved are quite pleased with things. An ACC network will eventually emerge.
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I don't ever see an ACC implosion. The conference is very focused and the parties involved are quite pleased with things. An ACC network will eventually emerge.
That's a bald faced lie.
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That's a bald faced lie.
What's more is it's not true.
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I just don't see the attraction to Notre Dame.
For the schools of the Big East, the focus is college basketball. For the Irish, the focus is football. The difference couldn't be any clearer. That difference is what helped rip the Big East apart. Seems pretty simple.
I don't want ND in our conference. It doesn't matter how big their brand is. Or how good their men's basketball program is. Or what else we hold in common (geography, Catholic universities). They're trouble we don't need.
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But I'll happily play ND home and away every year until the end of time.
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Notre Dame would instantly be the highest profile school in the conference. If you can find a working relationship for them and their football program, you take them in a heartbeat.
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Notre Dame would instantly be the highest profile school in the conference. If you can find a working relationship for them and their football program, you take them in a heartbeat.
That's the same thinking that led to the breakup of the Big East. There was no working relationship or common ground between the football and basketball-only schools. We've tried being in a conference with ND and it didn't take. Doing it again would seem foolish.
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That's the same thinking that led to the breakup of the Big East. There was no working relationship or common ground between the football and basketball-only schools. We've tried being in a conference with ND and it didn't take. Doing it again would seem foolish.
It is very different to have a conference where half the members play football and half don't (Old Big East), versus one where one member plays FBS football as an independent and is not affiliated with any other conference. I feel confident in saying that if ND wanted to stay in the Big East when the conference broke apart, they would have been allowed to do so.
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I don't give a rats behind if a school has football or is their public or private. Give me the best basketball programs available.
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I don't give a rats behind if a school has football or is their public or private. Give me the best basketball programs available.
Disagree with the former, completely agree with the latter.
ND is unique in that while football is king for their program...the king wants to be independent and that will never change, that can be easily managed within a conference of basketball only schools. Other schools, it would be a marriage of convenience and once the football program got a better offer they would be gone.
If ND wants to land in the BEast, fine we will take the increased TV contract money with glee then beat them on the court. If any other(literally any other) school with a football program comes calling we hang up on them within 30 seconds and block their number.
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Notre Dame would instantly be the highest profile school in the conference. If you can find a working relationship for them and their football program, you take them in a heartbeat.
+1
ND doesn't want to be in a conference for football. The Big East would be a mutually beneficial arrangement for all parties.
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+1
ND doesn't want to be in a conference for football. The Big East would be a mutually beneficial arrangement for all parties.
I think the issue with ND, though, is the bowl tie-ins. While they don't want to be in a conference, they want access to the bowl games that a conference "affiliation" gives them. That's why the deal with the ACC works so well for them--they get the benefits of the conference's bowl game tie-ins, while maintaining their NBC contract and still keeping more scheduling flexibility.
That's also why I don't see it likely that ND ever would join us (and be an unaffiliated football independent).
The issue will be for ND if ACC gets so devalued at some point if the premier ACC football schools all flock to greener pastures, and loses either its Power 5 status and/or bowl tie-ins. Then ND will have to again look to see if there is another conference it can affiliate with--but my guess is that the remaining Power 5 conferences say no unless it is full-member status.
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That's a bald faced lie.
How many ACC Presidents and Trustees have you spoken to? I have spoken to many as well as the top brass ESPN. When you speak to some of the above let us know if You still believe that to be the case.
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I think the issue with ND, though, is the bowl tie-ins. While they don't want to be in a conference, they want access to the bowl games that a conference "affiliation" gives them. That's why the deal with the ACC works so well for them--they get the benefits of the conference's bowl game tie-ins, while maintaining their NBC contract and still keeping more scheduling flexibility.
That's also why I don't see it likely that ND ever would join us (and be an unaffiliated football independent).
The issue will be for ND if ACC gets so devalued at some point if the premier ACC football schools all flock to greener pastures, and loses either its Power 5 status and/or bowl tie-ins. Then ND will have to again look to see if there is another conference it can affiliate with--but my guess is that the remaining Power 5 conferences say no unless it is full-member status.
ND can get bowl tie-ins with zero conference connection. They did it before they had this weird ACC relationship with football
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ND can get bowl tie-ins with zero conference connection. They did it before they had this weird ACC relationship with football
Yeah. With the Big East.
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Disagree with the former, completely agree with the latter.
ND is unique in that while football is king for their program...the king wants to be independent and that will never change, that can be easily managed within a conference of basketball only schools. Other schools, it would be a marriage of convenience and once the football program got a better offer they would be gone.
If ND wants to land in the BEast, fine we will take the increased TV contract money with glee then beat them on the court. If any other(literally any other) school with a football program comes calling we hang up on them within 30 seconds and block their number.
So how exactly is Notre Dame different from Texas?
[Texas/Notre Dame] sees itself as better than the rest of the schools in the [Big 12/ACC], demands special treatment as a condition for membership and earns more than the other schools through [The Longhorn Network/NBC].
The consensus on Texas is that it has a destabilizing influence on the Big 12 — simultaneously holding the conference together, yet keeping it from moving forward. The unequal partnership works against unity between the schools. I see no reason to view Notre Dame any differently.
ND, UConn and the like aren't part of the Big East anymore for a simple reason. They don't want what we want. Good riddance.
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How many ACC Presidents and Trustees have you spoken to? I have spoken to many as well as the top brass ESPN. When you speak to some of the above let us know if You still believe that to be the case.
Exactly one. Though it was very brief and we didn't talk basketball. No I don't travel in those kinds of circles. If you do, congrats. I hope you would understand that no University President would ever say anything negative about their athletic conference and would do their absolute best to paint the picture that all the member schools get together on the weekends to drink some cold ones and sing kumbaya.
Instead, I will listen the fairly consistent media coverage and common sense that dictates that the ACC schools are livid about the ACC Network not getting off the ground, that the ACC Network is not close to getting off the ground, and that several ACC member schools would jump ship the second either the SEC or BIG came calling.
The harsh reality is that conference realignment is about one thing and one thing only. Money. The B1G can outspend everybody. The SEC can outspend everyone but the B1G. Either of those conferences can cherry pick any school they want from any of the other conferences (except Notre Dame and maybe Texas due to their special circumstances). The PAC 12 is geographically insulated, so they are safe. So either the B12 or the ACC or both will get raided next. My personal opinion is that the ACC schools will be more valuable to the B1G and SEC so they will get raided first.
Conference will only continue to grow. The B1G and SEC are king. They won't be adding any mid major schools. Other high major schools will need to lose schools in order for the SEC and B1G to grow. Its only a matter of who and when.
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Exactly one. Though it was very brief and we didn't talk basketball. No I don't travel in those kinds of circles. If you do, congrats. I hope you would understand that no University President would ever say anything negative about their athletic conference and would do their absolute best to paint the picture that all the member schools get together on the weekends to drink some cold ones and sing kumbaya.
Instead, I will listen the fairly consistent media coverage and common sense that dictates that the ACC schools are livid about the ACC Network not getting off the ground, that the ACC Network is not close to getting off the ground, and that several ACC member schools would jump ship the second either the SEC or BIG came calling.
The harsh reality is that conference realignment is about one thing and one thing only. Money. The B1G can outspend everybody. The SEC can outspend everyone but the B1G. Either of those conferences can cherry pick any school they want from any of the other conferences (except Notre Dame and maybe Texas due to their special circumstances). The PAC 12 is geographically insulated, so they are safe. So either the B12 or the ACC or both will get raided next. My personal opinion is that the ACC schools will be more valuable to the B1G and SEC so they will get raided first.
Conference will only continue to grow. The B1G and SEC are king. They won't be adding any mid major schools. Other high major schools will need to lose schools in order for the SEC and B1G to grow. Its only a matter of who and when.
+1
The other piece in all of this is that for football, there are four spots in the Playoffs, but currently five Power conferences. One conference (at least) is always going to be left out in the cold. Under this system, it is also in the interests of these conferences to cannibalize one of the others, so that there are only four major conferences for four playoff spots (ignoring the fact that one conference could place multiple teams in a given year, or, more unlikely, that a G5 team could crack the top 4).
As TAMU mentioned, the Pac12 is insulated, and the B1G and SEC have more money than the other two. One of them (B12 or ACC) likely has to give eventually. Now, it could be that the B12 could be the one to fall apart if the discord created by the imbalance between UT and the rest gets too bad: OU gets picked up by the SEC, or Texas decides to move somewhere else. But, personally, I also see it more likely that the ACC gets raided.
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Exactly one. Though it was very brief and we didn't talk basketball. No I don't travel in those kinds of circles. If you do, congrats. I hope you would understand that no University President would ever say anything negative about their athletic conference and would do their absolute best to paint the picture that all the member schools get together on the weekends to drink some cold ones and sing kumbaya.
Instead, I will listen the fairly consistent media coverage and common sense that dictates that the ACC schools are livid about the ACC Network not getting off the ground, that the ACC Network is not close to getting off the ground, and that several ACC member schools would jump ship the second either the SEC or BIG came calling.
The harsh reality is that conference realignment is about one thing and one thing only. Money. The B1G can outspend everybody. The SEC can outspend everyone but the B1G. Either of those conferences can cherry pick any school they want from any of the other conferences (except Notre Dame and maybe Texas due to their special circumstances). The PAC 12 is geographically insulated, so they are safe. So either the B12 or the ACC or both will get raided next. My personal opinion is that the ACC schools will be more valuable to the B1G and SEC so they will get raided first.
Conference will only continue to grow. The B1G and SEC are king. They won't be adding any mid major schools. Other high major schools will need to lose schools in order for the SEC and B1G to grow. Its only a matter of who and when.
Yes the Big 10 and SEC are strong conferences that are coining money. I agree they can theoretically buy anyone that they want to a certain extent. On the other hand the party they buy has to bring something to the table . Maryland and Rutgers brought a lot to the table. The offset is the exit fees up the ACC are now $52 million and no state institution is excited to pony that up. The ACC is in a very good position to provide a wide range of desired content to ESPN. They will have their network soon . I can assure you, ESPN wants it as much as the ACC.
Also remember, if Notre Dame joins a football conference ever, they are obligated to join the ACC which is a driving motivation for ESPN to make the ACC network deal. Notre Dame loves housing their Olympic Sports in the ACC and that was one of the several prime reasons they made their move in the first place. Notre Dame is not going anywhere.
The deal is being negotiated and these things take time. Also the ACC is the most desired destination of student athletes across a wide range of sports, which ensures their continued desirability as a conference. They are having no problems recruiting in any sport.
All that said I am very happy MU is in its Big East. Our conference is stable and not subject to the volatility of football.
Now only if we could sign Kostas....
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I believe ESPN owes the ACC $45 million if the ACC Network is not established by July 1.
We'll wait and see if ESPN feels the extra $45 million is less than the costs of starting up a new network, and the possible losses that may be incurred the first few seasons.
ESPN continues the purging of on air staff as Ray Lewis and Cris Carter both were released yesterday.
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If the ACC implodes and replaces schools like Florida State, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc with schools from the American, then they will end up getting American level TV money. Schools like UConn, BC, Wake, and maybe even Duke, Pitt, and Cuse will need to take a hard look at their commitment to football. The conference landscape will change significantly in the next 10 years. Gotta make sure the BEast is ready to be takers, not the taken.
There's not anyone around to take Big East teams - that was the beauty of the no FBS football team model.
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I just don't see the attraction to Notre Dame.
For the schools of the Big East, the focus is college basketball. For the Irish, the focus is football. The difference couldn't be any clearer. That difference is what helped rip the Big East apart. Seems pretty simple.
I don't want ND in our conference. It doesn't matter how big their brand is. Or how good their men's basketball program is. Or what else we hold in common (geography, Catholic universities). They're trouble we don't need.
I disagree. Since Notre Dame has resisted joining a BCS conference as a full member, they were never part of the forces that pulled the Big East apart.
ND's women's basketball and men's lacrosse would both look very nice in the current Big East lineup.
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Exactly one. Though it was very brief and we didn't talk basketball. No I don't travel in those kinds of circles. If you do, congrats. I hope you would understand that no University President would ever say anything negative about their athletic conference and would do their absolute best to paint the picture that all the member schools get together on the weekends to drink some cold ones and sing kumbaya.
Instead, I will listen the fairly consistent media coverage and common sense that dictates that the ACC schools are livid about the ACC Network not getting off the ground, that the ACC Network is not close to getting off the ground, and that several ACC member schools would jump ship the second either the SEC or BIG came calling.
The harsh reality is that conference realignment is about one thing and one thing only. Money. The B1G can outspend everybody. The SEC can outspend everyone but the B1G. Either of those conferences can cherry pick any school they want from any of the other conferences (except Notre Dame and maybe Texas due to their special circumstances). The PAC 12 is geographically insulated, so they are safe. So either the B12 or the ACC or both will get raided next. My personal opinion is that the ACC schools will be more valuable to the B1G and SEC so they will get raided first.
Conference will only continue to grow. The B1G and SEC are king. They won't be adding any mid major schools. Other high major schools will need to lose schools in order for the SEC and B1G to grow. Its only a matter of who and when.
Humm, ESPN gets the ACC to take Pitt and 'Cuse leading to the complete reformulation of the Big East, then ESPN fails to follow through on a promised ACC network.
Ain't karma a bitch.
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So how exactly is Notre Dame different from Texas?
[Texas/Notre Dame] sees itself as better than the rest of the schools in the [Big 12/ACC], demands special treatment as a condition for membership and earns more than the other schools through [The Longhorn Network/NBC].
The consensus on Texas is that it has a destabilizing influence on the Big 12 — simultaneously holding the conference together, yet keeping it from moving forward. The unequal partnership works against unity between the schools. I see no reason to view Notre Dame any differently.
ND, UConn and the like aren't part of the Big East anymore for a simple reason. They don't want what we want. Good riddance.
UConn isn't a part of the Big East anymore because they were left behind. ND, on the other hand, isn't a member of the Big East anymore because they got a better deal and left. Had ND not found something that they liked better, they would be in the Big East today, instead of Creighton, probably.
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UConn isn't a part of the Big East anymore because they were left behind. ND, on the other hand, isn't a member of the Big East anymore because they got a better deal and left. Had ND not found something that they liked better, they would be in the Big East today, instead of Creighton, probably.
I agree with this analysis.
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I disagree. Since Notre Dame has resisted joining a BCS conference as a full member, they were never part of the forces that pulled the Big East apart.
My logic is this:
A. All the current Big East schools focus on college basketball.
B. That focus is what unites the Big East.
C. Notre Dame focuses on football.
D. What does not unite the Big East divides it.
E. Notre Dame helped divide the Big East.
To your point, since Notre Dame didn't compete in the Big East football conference, it probably had no role in campaigning for new football-focused schools. But I can't say ND did anything to help keep the Big East together, either. And the fact that they're no longer part of the Big East is equally telling.
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UConn isn't a part of the Big East anymore because they were left behind. ND, on the other hand, isn't a member of the Big East anymore because they got a better deal and left. Had ND not found something that they liked better, they would be in the Big East today, instead of Creighton, probably.
I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, but I think it comes down to semantics at this point.
For ND for find "something that they like better," they have to want something better in the first place. (This goes back to Notre Dame seeing itself as better than other schools and demanding special treatment as a condition for membership.) In other words, Notre Dame doesn't want what the rest of the schools in the Big East want.
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My logic is this:
A. All the current Big East schools focus on college basketball.
B. That focus is what unites the Big East.
C. Notre Dame focuses on football.
D. What does not unite the Big East divides it.
E. Notre Dame helped divide the Big East.
I don't think that is terribly logical.
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I don't think that is terribly logical.
Please elaborate. I'm doing my best to understand the conference landscape as it is, not as I want it to be.
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Because I don't think ND's admission into the BE, with the football being kept independent, would "divide" the BE. It's membership in the BE would have everything to do with the sports it sponsors with an emphasis on basketball. They know this.
Since they have a television contract solely for football, it wouldn't interfere in any way.
The BE would be foolish to turn them down.
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Isn't ND joining the BIG Whatever in hockey now?
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Because I don't think ND's admission into the BE, with the football being kept independent, would "divide" the BE. It's membership in the BE would have everything to do with the sports it sponsors with an emphasis on basketball. They know this.
Since they have a television contract solely for football, it wouldn't interfere in any way.
The BE would be foolish to turn them down.
The Big East would take Notre Dame in a heartbeat. However, ND has zero interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame outlined the reasons it wants to be in the ACC in a lot of detail at the time they made the switch and none of that changed, and in most cases it has only increased the rationale for their association with the ACC.
Notre Dame is for all intents and purposes a permanent member of the ACC. The sole exception is the Big Ten let them in as an associate member in Ice Hockey. Notre Dame has everything they want right now.
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The Big East would take Notre Dame in a heartbeat. However, ND has zero interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame outlined the reasons it wants to be in the ACC in a lot of detail at the time they made the switch and none of that changed, and in most cases it has only increased the rationale for their association with the ACC.
Notre Dame is for all intents and purposes a permanent member of the ACC. The sole exception is the Big Ten let them in as an associate member in Ice Hockey. Notre Dame has everything they want right now.
If you would have been paying attention, the entire assumption around this discussion is that ND would be looking for a place to land IF the ACC broke apart due to B12 and B10 expansion.
No kidding they aren't interested now.
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The Big East would take Notre Dame in a heartbeat. However, ND has zero interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame outlined the reasons it wants to be in the ACC in a lot of detail at the time they made the switch and none of that changed, and in most cases it has only increased the rationale for their association with the ACC.
Notre Dame is for all intents and purposes a permanent member of the ACC. The sole exception is the Big Ten let them in as an associate member in Ice Hockey. Notre Dame has everything they want right now.
This conversation isn't about right now. It is about what would happen if the ACC got gutted by the SEC and Big10.
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If you would have been paying attention, the entire assumption around this discussion is that ND would be looking for a place to land IF the ACC broke apart due to B12 and B10 expansion.
No kidding they aren't interested now.
The ACC is not ever getting gutted. That is a fantasy. They have as much chance of getting gutted as Kostas does of signing with MU.
If the ACC Broke Apart, obviously they would land with the Big East and we would take them in a heartbeat as I mentioned.
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The ACC is not ever getting gutted. That is a fantasy. They have as much chance of getting gutted as Kostas does of signing with MU.
If the ACC Broke Apart, obviously they would land with the Big East and we would take them in a heartbeat as I mentioned.
Its them or the Big 12. Unless you really think the B1G and SEC will never expand again
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Its them or the Big 12. Unless you really think the B1G and SEC will never expand again
Big 12 is more likely to be gutted by the Big Ten. Lots of Big 12 schools would like a divorce from Texas.
ACC is in love with itself.
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Big 12 is more likely to be gutted by the Big Ten. Lots of Big 12 schools would like a divorce from Texas.
What schools would the B10 want from the B12.
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What schools would the B10 want from the B12.
Oklahoma and Kansas would be the top prospects. Oklahoma is one of the all time greats in football and Kansas one of the all time greats in basketball. Both are the kind of must see TV that enhance the Big Ten network. Big Ten will make an academic exception for Oklahoma just like they did for Nebraska.
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Oklahoma isn't going anywhere without Texas. You might be right about Kansas, but I think the B10 would rather have ACC schools than both of them.
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Big 12 is more likely to be gutted by the Big Ten. Lots of Big 12 schools would like a divorce from Texas.
ACC is in love with itself.
This has nothing to do with how the ACC and B12 feel about themselves. Every one of them would take the money the B1G or SEC offers (except ND and maybe Texas). It has everything to do with what the B1G and SEC want.
You gotta remember who is in the drivers seat. Its not the ACC or B12.
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Exactly one. Though it was very brief and we didn't talk basketball. No I don't travel in those kinds of circles. If you do, congrats. I hope you would understand that no University President would ever say anything negative about their athletic conference and would do their absolute best to paint the picture that all the member schools get together on the weekends to drink some cold ones and sing kumbaya.
Instead, I will listen the fairly consistent media coverage and common sense that dictates that the ACC schools are livid about the ACC Network not getting off the ground, that the ACC Network is not close to getting off the ground, and that several ACC member schools would jump ship the second either the SEC or BIG came calling.
The harsh reality is that conference realignment is about one thing and one thing only. Money. The B1G can outspend everybody. The SEC can outspend everyone but the B1G. Either of those conferences can cherry pick any school they want from any of the other conferences (except Notre Dame and maybe Texas due to their special circumstances). The PAC 12 is geographically insulated, so they are safe. So either the B12 or the ACC or both will get raided next. My personal opinion is that the ACC schools will be more valuable to the B1G and SEC so they will get raided first.
Conference will only continue to grow. The B1G and SEC are king. They won't be adding any mid major schools. Other high major schools will need to lose schools in order for the SEC and B1G to grow. Its only a matter of who and when.
I don't disagree with the rest, but as far as the bolded part, no reasonable person can disagree with that. Except perhaps the spouses of said presidents.
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Oklahoma isn't going anywhere without Texas. You might be right about Kansas, but I think the B10 would rather have ACC schools than both of them.
No question the Big Ten covets the ACC. ACC is going to get their network though. I speak frequently with the people involved in this. It is going to happen.
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No question the Big Ten covets the ACC. ACC is going to get their network though. I speak frequently with the people involved in this. It is going to happen.
Even if they do, which is a big if. The will still make pennies compared to the B1G and nickels compared to the SEC. The would still jump ship. $$$$ is the only thing that matters
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Even if they do, which is a big if. The will still make pennies compared to the B1G and nickels compared to the SEC. The would still jump ship. $$$$ is the only thing that matters
There network will do fine. a network has to run 24 7 365 and the ACC has a lot of quality content.
Other considerations
1. they have exit fees of 52 million.
2. most importantly They also have ceded all their home media rights to the ACC in the event they leave up to 2027, so what in effect will the Big Ten or SEC be paying for ? They are in business to make money too.
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Oklahoma and Kansas would be the top prospects. Oklahoma is one of the all time greats in football and Kansas one of the all time greats in basketball. Both are the kind of must see TV that enhance the Big Ten network. Big Ten will make an academic exception for Oklahoma just like they did for Nebraska.
The BiG hasn't shown any love recently for more midwestern TV markets, their attention has been directed to the east.
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There network will do fine. a network has to run 24 7 365 and the ACC has a lot of quality content.
Other considerations
1. they have exit fees of 52 million.
2. most importantly They also have ceded all their home media rights to the ACC in the event they leave up to 2027, so what in effect will the Big Ten or SEC be paying for ? They are in business to make money too.
The discussion has been premised on the ACC network not happening by a July deadline leading to a voiding of the media rights assignments.
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There network will do fine. a network has to run 24 7 365 and the ACC has a lot of quality content.
Other considerations
1. they have exit fees of 52 million.
2. most importantly They also have ceded all their home media rights to the ACC in the event they leave up to 2027, so what in effect will the Big Ten or SEC be paying for ? They are in business to make money too.
Small barriers for powerhouses like the B1G and SEC. I don't think the ACC Network will launch, and if it does, I dont think it will be successful
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Hard to fathom the ACC ceasing to exist, though strange things do happen in this landscape.
If that were to happen, I echo those who would welcome ND with wide open arms to the Big East. They can have their football independence AND a great conference for every other sport.
It would be tremendous. Right now, it's also a fairy tale.
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Small barriers for powerhouses like the B1G and SEC. I don't think the ACC Network will launch, and if it does, I dont think it will be successful
I have a more positive outlook on this issue.
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Listen... if Oprah Winfrey can have her own network, so can the ACC. And its ratings will be about the same... except it will be immensely popular with the male analougue of the not-by-choice-stay-at-home-mom-who-works-out-four-hours-a-day-(out-of-fear-that-her-husband-will-divorce-her-if-she-gains-more-than-three-pounds)-and-reads-mommy-blogs-the-other-four-hours-because--that's-right--she-actually-has-eight-hours-of-free-time-but-only-because-she-was-too-drunk-to-remember-to-pick-up-the-kids-from-school, which is something along the lines of guy-who-got-fired-from-Walmart-two-years-ago-who-watches-reruns-of-Duck-Dynasty-all-day-long-because-the-fifth-graders-taking-up-airtime-on-ESPN-with-their-elitist-spelling-bee-competition-made-him-feel-so-dispondent(ding)-that-he-just-didn't-have-it-in-him-to-look-for-a-job-today.
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Listen... if Oprah Winfrey can have her own network, so can the ACC. And its ratings will be about the same... except it will be immensely popular with the male analougue of the not-by-choice-stay-at-home-mom-who-works-out-four-hours-a-day-(out-of-fear-that-her-husband-will-divorce-her-if-she-gains-more-than-three-pounds)-and-reads-mommy-blogs-the-other-four-hours-because--that's-right--she-actually-has-eight-hours-of-free-time-but-only-because-she-was-too-drunk-to-remember-to-pick-up-the-kids-from-school, which is something along the lines of guy-who-got-fired-from-Walmart-two-years-ago-who-watches-reruns-of-Duck-Dynasty-all-day-long-because-the-fifth-graders-taking-up-airtime-on-ESPN-with-their-elitist-spelling-bee-competition-made-him-feel-so-dispondent(ding)-that-he-just-didn't-have-it-in-him-to-look-for-a-job-today.
I'm buying this for Benny
(http://rlv.zcache.com/i_love_hyphens_iphone_4_case_mate_cases-r73fb561303d64dffab4c74576222596a_a460e_8byvr_324.jpg)
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15502359/documents-show-big-12-flirting-houston-memphis-ucf-colorado-state-expansion (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15502359/documents-show-big-12-flirting-houston-memphis-ucf-colorado-state-expansion)
Officials from Houston, Memphis, UCF and Colorado State have been lobbying the Big 12 expansion committee according to documents ESPN obtained.
IMO, Cincinnati is a lock for #11 (especially since Gordon Gee is on the expansion committee). One of these four schools (along with BYU) will probably be #12.
And once again, it appears that UConn will be shut out from a P5 invite. Never a bride, always a bridesmaid...
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15502359/documents-show-big-12-flirting-houston-memphis-ucf-colorado-state-expansion (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/15502359/documents-show-big-12-flirting-houston-memphis-ucf-colorado-state-expansion)
Officials from Houston, Memphis, UCF and Colorado State have been lobbying the Big 12 expansion committee according to documents ESPN obtained.
IMO, Cincinnati is a lock for #11 (especially since Gordon Gee is on the expansion committee). One of these four schools (along with BYU) will probably be #12.
And once again, it appears that UConn will be shut out from a P5 invite. Never a bride, always a bridesmaid...
Cincy and Colorado State both make sense. BYU and Memphis wouldn't be terrible choices, although IMO not as good as the first two. But Houston and UCF? No way.
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I don't think it is certain at all that those schools will get invited. Those schools simply look like they are talking with the B12 and the press got their hands on the information due to FOIA requests. Connecticut's laws may be different and are shielding someone from seeing that information.
If I were schools like Texas and Oklahoma, I would be alarmed at expansion candidates like Houston and Memphis. I would be talking with the top programs of the ACC to form a new 12-14 team conference with the top schools from both.
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I don't think it is certain at all that those schools will get invited. Those schools simply look like they are talking with the B12 and the press got their hands on the information due to FOIA requests. Connecticut's laws may be different and are shielding someone from seeing that information.
If I were schools like Texas and Oklahoma, I would be alarmed at expansion candidates like Houston and Memphis. I would be talking with the top programs of the ACC to form a new 12-14 team conference with the top schools from both.
The worst thing about such a new conference is that it would likely be the target for every future expansion raid by both the SEC and the Big Ten. A best of the rest conference that would be regularly losing its top teams and replacing them from the leftovers conference, a lot like the old Big East.
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I don't think it is certain at all that those schools will get invited. Those schools simply look like they are talking with the B12 and the press got their hands on the information due to FOIA requests. Connecticut's laws may be different and are shielding someone from seeing that information.
If I were schools like Texas and Oklahoma, I would be alarmed at expansion candidates like Houston and Memphis. I would be talking with the top programs of the ACC to form a new 12-14 team conference with the top schools from both.
I was reading about this today. Connecticut is purposely taking a low public profile, and is privately actively talking with the Big12.
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I don't think it is certain at all that those schools will get invited. Those schools simply look like they are talking with the B12 and the press got their hands on the information due to FOIA requests. Connecticut's laws may be different and are shielding someone from seeing that information.
Agreed. Don't read too much into who is left off this list. This article is noteworthy for what it does not discuss--how ESPN got the records. FOIA (and other open records laws) requests need to be very specific in what they are searching for, and depending on what ESPN specifically asked for, there may be other documents that were not responsive to this request that would demonstrate other schools are doing the same thing.
All told, another advantage of having only private schools in the Big East--keeps our dirty laundry from being aired too soon.
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Cincy and Colorado State both make sense. BYU and Memphis wouldn't be terrible choices, although IMO not as good as the first two. But Houston and UCF? No way.
CSU and UC gives the Big 12 almost nothing.
UCF opens open the State of Florida for recruiting to other Big 12 school. Nice size TV market.
BYU has many fans around the US and it's own TV network. BYU moves the needle the most of the schools listed in the ESPN story.
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Hard to fathom the ACC ceasing to exist, though strange things do happen in this landscape.
If that were to happen, I echo those who would welcome ND with wide open arms to the Big East. They can have their football independence AND a great conference for every other sport.
It would be tremendous. Right now, it's also a fairy tale.
I agree with this analysis.
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I was reading about this today. Connecticut is purposely taking a low public profile, and is privately actively talking with the Big12.
That would seem to be a change for UConn, who up until now has been quite public about their interest in joining the Big 12:
http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-0304-20160303-story.html
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That would seem to be a change for UConn, who up until now has been quite public about their interest in joining the Big 12:
http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-0304-20160303-story.html
Connecticut media is still hot on the trail...
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-football/hc-big-12-meetings-0507-20160506-story.html (http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-football/hc-big-12-meetings-0507-20160506-story.html)
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CSU and UC gives the Big 12 almost nothing.
UCF opens open the State of Florida for recruiting to other Big 12 school. Nice size TV market.
BYU has many fans around the US and it's own TV network. BYU moves the needle the most of the schools listed in the ESPN story.
Denver market...almost nothing?
No one in Florida, much less the rest of the USA, cares about UCF. It is in 5th place in relevance for the state behind Florida, Florida State, Miami, and USF.
We're in agreement on BYU. I think they'd be a good fit.
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CSU and UC gives the Big 12 almost nothing.
UCF opens open the State of Florida for recruiting to other Big 12 school. Nice size TV market.
BYU has many fans around the US and it's own TV network. BYU moves the needle the most of the schools listed in the ESPN story.
UCF would be behind Florida (SEC), Florida State (ACC), and Miami (ACC). They struggle with USF to puncture the Florida market, due to the strong teams ahead of them. Just because the Big 12 could, conceivably, acquire UCF, doesn't mean they acquire the Florida market.
Would NIU capture the Illinois market? Does ECU capture the North Carolina market? Does Houston capture the Texas market? The answer to all the questions is no - but they do capture the local area around it. The problem with all of the candidates is that none, fully, bring any state they belong in - only a portion of it.
If the key to get more households for a Big 12 network (or some hybrid of the LHN), then acquiring Orlando doesn't necessarily help them move the needle.
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Denver market...almost nothing?
No one in Florida, much less the rest of the USA, cares about UCF. It is in 5th place in relevance for the state behind Florida, Florida State, Miami, and USF.
We're in agreement on BYU. I think they'd be a good fit.
CSU has no Denver market.
I can't disagree too much on UCF. The state of Florida only cares about Florida, then FSU. Miami doesn't care about Miami. I would say UCF trumps USF, but Orlando and Florida open things up for other Big 12 schools.
BYU would be a great fit, but who is the 12th?
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CSU has no Denver market.
I can't disagree too much on UCF. The state of Florida only cares about Florida, then FSU. Miami doesn't care about Miami. I would say UCF trumps USF, but Orlando and Florida open things up for other Big 12 schools.
BYU would be a great fit, but who is the 12th?
BYU is definitely a fit and very desirable economically. Getting to the 12th is where the difficulty is . The Big 10 operated with 11 from the time of Penn State addition to the Nebraska addition, so maybe it is worth looking at that experience.
The best case scenario of all these events is for U Conn to get shut our of any Power 5 conference and then fold their tent on D1 football and then come hat in hand back to the Big East. I realize the likelihood of that is about equal to us signing Kostas....
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Oklahoma and Kansas would be the top prospects. Oklahoma is one of the all time greats in football and Kansas one of the all time greats in basketball. Both are the kind of must see TV that enhance the Big Ten network. Big Ten will make an academic exception for Oklahoma just like they did for Nebraska.
Kansas would be a B1G target out of B12 for sure, but Oklahoma would be a stretch. 1. They are pretty linked to Texas and 2. They aren't an AAU school. I think you'd be much more likely to see Iowa State and Kansas then any other paring....unless they can pull a coup and get Oklahoma and Texas, pretty sure they would forget the AAU requirement with that kind of windfall.
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Kansas would be a B1G target out of B12 for sure, but Oklahoma would be a stretch. 1. They are pretty linked to Texas and 2. They aren't an AAU school. I think you'd be much more likely to see Iowa State and Kansas then any other paring....unless they can pull a coup and get Oklahoma and Texas, pretty sure they would forget the AAU requirement with that kind of windfall.
Iowa State id never going to the BIG1G. See Rutgers & Maryland.
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Iowa State id never going to the BIG1G. See Rutgers & Maryland.
Maryland (from football) and Rutgers(from all aspects) were terrible adds but from a value/eyeballs/revenue generation standpoint they've done exactly what they were intended to do.
You can argue the product sucks, but given the TV contracts I would argue it doesn't matter if they are going to get that much more money.
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Iowa State isn't going to the B10. It already has that market.
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Kansas would be a B1G target out of B12 for sure, but Oklahoma would be a stretch. 1. They are pretty linked to Texas and 2. They aren't an AAU school. I think you'd be much more likely to see Iowa State and Kansas then any other paring....unless they can pull a coup and get Oklahoma and Texas, pretty sure they would forget the AAU requirement with that kind of windfall.
Nebraska was only AAU for about 8 minutes after the B1G welcome press conference.
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Nebraska consolidated the Midwest for the Big 10. But my guess is that if the conference continues to expand, it'll look farther east and south. Duke, Georgia Tech, Virginia and North Carolina of the ACC could be top targets.
They're all top 50 universities. They all belong to the AAU. They're all in major market areas: Duke and UNC (Raleigh-Durham #29 metro market), Georgia Tech (Atlanta #11 metro market), Virginia (12th largest state by population). And they all have strong athletic programs (to varying degrees).
Only 60 schools belong to the AAU. Cornell, Harvard and their ilk aren't joining the Big 10 anytime soon. Iowa State is likely out of the running since Iowa is already in the fold. Chances are that Vanderbilt, Florida, Missouri and Texas A&M are happy right where they are in the SEC. And I don't think the Big 10 is ready to raid the Pac-10 just yet.
That leaves a short list of possible contenders. In addition to the four above, Kansas and Pitt deserve mention. Neither matches Duke or Georgia Tech for market appeal (with Pitt probably getting vetoed by Penn State). But they do fit the Big 10's apparent expansion criteria.
The last one: Texas. Hard to see them finding common ground on the whole Longhorn Network issue. But you never know.
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Nebraska consolidated the Midwest for the Big 10. But my guess is that if the conference continues to expand, it'll look farther east and south. Duke, Georgia Tech, Virginia and North Carolina of the ACC could be top targets.
They're all top 50 universities. They all belong to the AAU. They're all in major market areas: Duke and UNC (Raleigh-Durham #29 metro market), Georgia Tech (Atlanta #11 metro market), Virginia (12th largest state by population). And they all have strong athletic programs (to varying degrees).
Only 60 schools belong to the AAU. Cornell, Harvard and their ilk aren't joining the Big 10 anytime soon. Iowa State is likely out of the running since Iowa is already in the fold. Chances are that Vanderbilt, Florida, Missouri and Texas A&M are happy right where they are in the SEC. And I don't think the Big 10 is ready to raid the Pac-10 just yet.
That leaves a short list of possible contenders. In addition to the four above, Kansas and Pitt deserve mention. Neither matches Duke or Georgia Tech for market appeal (with Pitt probably getting vetoed by Penn State). But they do fit the Big 10's apparent expansion criteria.
The last one: Texas. Hard to see them finding common ground on the whole Longhorn Network issue. But you never know.
Solid points. I will add that Missouri's first choice was the B1G - there were rumblings that they, Nebraska and a third school could have been added in 2011 to the Big Ten; however, it was only Nebraska that got added. When the SEC became their only option, it was an easy choice to make. Many think that Missouri would never leave the SEC - but Missouri is a rare school that fits the mold of both an SEC and B1G school. If the B1G is assured of getting more $$$ from Fox than the SEC is from ESPN, it's very possibly Missouri changes course. Time will tell though.
I 100% agree that the B1G's focus, as of today, is eastern and southern expansion (Virginia, UNC, Duke, and Georgia Tech). It's where the populations are increasing and where the stronger media markets will be (not to mention plethora of respected academic/research institutions).
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If the Big Ten could somehow get a deal with both Texas and Oklahoma, they aren't going to let OU's lack of AAU membership stand in the way of it.
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Ahem... the Big East.
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Can anyone cite any support for this mysterious Big Tweleventeen AAU deal breaker requirement other than "I read it on a message board once"?
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Can anyone cite any support for this mysterious Big Tweleventeen AAU deal breaker requirement other than "I read it on a message board once"?
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/26078/nebraska-loses-aau-status
http://the-boneyard.com/threads/delany-aau-membership-required-for-admission.61462/
http://www.nj.com/rutgers/index.ssf/2010/05/big_ten_expansion_talk_puts_sp.html
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CSU has no Denver market.
BYU has more of the Denver market than CSU.
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Why do people think that CSU doesn't have the Denver market? CSU is just as big as CU and has more in-state students enrolled. Arguably better than CU for Denver.
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Why do people think that CSU doesn't have the Denver market? CSU is just as big as CU and has more in-state students enrolled. Arguably better than CU for Denver.
I think CSU is also on an uptrend. They are building a beautiful new stadium, cost 220 million.
https://stadium.colostate.edu/
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With cord cutting likely to be an ongoing trend, and with continued cuts to their employee base, how can ESPN be thinking of starting up another on-air network? Plus they essentially just let Fox grab the tier-one rights for the B1G without much resistance. Doesn't really sound like an ideal climate for an ACC Network launch.
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To be clear, Fox got half of the first tier rights.
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Why do people think that CSU doesn't have the Denver market? CSU is just as big as CU and has more in-state students enrolled. Arguably better than CU for Denver.
I'm a CU Law grad who lives in Denver. I think the issue, to be honest, is that the college game really doesn't have the Denver market. It's an NFL town, and there just isn't that same energy for college football. Sure, some alums trek up to Boulder and Fort Collins on the weekends, but their games don't really move the needle outside of that. Definitely not like how it is in the Midwest or south.
There are far too many transplants from other places who follow their college/home teams, so not many outside of the alumni bases tune in to the local teams. And, the local teams have been so poor in recent history, that large parts of the alumni bases (myself included), only pay passing attention at best to what CU/CSU do.
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I'm a CU Law grad who lives in Denver. I think the issue, to be honest, is that the college game really doesn't have the Denver market. It's an NFL town, and there just isn't that same energy for college football. Sure, some alums trek up to Boulder and Fort Collins on the weekends, but their games don't really move the needle outside of that. Definitely not like how it is in the Midwest or south.
There are far too many transplants from other places who follow their college/home teams, so not many outside of the alumni bases tune in to the local teams. And, the local teams have been so poor in recent history, that large parts of the alumni bases (myself included), only pay passing attention at best to what CU/CSU do.
OK that is a good answer. Thank you.
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To be clear, Fox got half of the first tier rights.
Thank you for the clarification.
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BTW, and Chicos would know this, but I don't think that the rights deal has been announced. So I don't know if its finalized.
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Can anyone cite any support for this mysterious Big Tweleventeen AAU deal breaker requirement other than "I read it on a message board once"?
Been the case for a long long long time. It was one of the reasons why Notre Dame was so hotly debated on whether to be admitted several rounds ago.
It is the measure for research institutions....follow the money.
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Can anyone cite any support for this mysterious Big Tweleventeen AAU deal breaker requirement other than "I read it on a message board once"?
Just look at the expansion in the past. Penn State is a member, Nebraska was a member, Rutgers and Maryland are members. All ten original Big 10 schools are members. Pretty sure that's not an accident.
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With cord cutting likely to be an ongoing trend, and with continued cuts to their employee base, how can ESPN be thinking of starting up another on-air network? Plus they essentially just let Fox grab the tier-one rights for the B1G without much resistance. Doesn't really sound like an ideal climate for an ACC Network launch.
ACC Network launch is still a topic at hand to be sure. Those of us that have worked on the distribution side have told Disney we don't want it, we won't carry it because all it does is add cost. With so many non-sports fans out there, it becomes a sports tax and that accelerates people downgrading to non-sports packages or going to SVOD \ OTT services. To be clearer, the distributors would be happy to carry the network if it could be sold as an add-on, where non-sports fans are not hit with the enormous costs of the sports networks.
The flip side of that is Disney has a ton of leverage, and they can do things like prevent all the other Disney channels from being carried, or pick and choose who can sell Star Wars, Marvel movies, etc in their studio output deals. So it's a big puzzle, never easy to answer.
Certainly the ACC schools want the network for obvious reasons...money, exposure, etc.
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Been the case for a long long long time. It was one of the reasons why Notre Dame was so hotly debated on whether to be admitted several rounds ago.
It is the measure for research institutions....follow the money.
As I recall the big debate was inside Notre Dame, not the BIG. They desperately wanted the Irish but the Domers declined.
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From a few years ago, but AAU has always been a big deal to the Big Ten.
"If they happen to be in the mix, then that would have to be looked at relative to all the other criteria. That's pretty common sense," he said. "But that (AAU membership) is a big criteria for us. We've always leaned toward that."
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BYU has more of the Denver market than CSU.
It isn't as much about CSU "having" the Denver market as much as being in it. Rutgers is a non entity in the NYC market when compared to others schools in the region but due to their proximity they got the Big Ten invite so BTN would be on basic cable. CSU would do that for Denver and a Big 12 network.
As for BYU, you run into the issue of no Sunday games and other demands they make.
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Nebraska was only AAU for about 8 minutes after the B1G welcome press conference.
Yeah and there was actually a vote taken to kick Nebraska out because of it.
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Sure, some alums trek up to Boulder and Fort Collins on the weekends, but their games don't really move the needle outside of that. Definitely not like how it is in the Midwest or south.
As a current Denverite, this is 100% true. Going to bars on a Saturday afternoon, as one does, you'll see much more energy around Big 10 teams since so many people in Denver are from the Midwest. CU fans are more like a niche. And CSU fans...they're like tumbleweeds blowing in the Western wind. People just don't care about CSU football in Denver.
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Been the case for a long long long time. It was one of the reasons why Notre Dame was so hotly debated on whether to be admitted several rounds ago.
It is the measure for research institutions....follow the money.
I get that its a factor, and all the linked articles said its "a big criteria" and "very important". Fine, but is it an absolute deal breaker? Would they turn down ND, or refuse to take OU as a package deal with UT just because of AAU membership? I'm not convinced of that. If they were really serious about it they'd kick out Nebraska.
The link that actually said it was a requirement was a UConn message board with a paraphrased quote from Twitter about Delaney testifying in the lawsuit accusing the Big Ten of being a price-fixing cartel. That's the same testimony where he said the Big Ten would stop sponsoring sports if athletes got paid. I don't think either of those statements are an absolute hard-line rule they'd stick to.
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I get that its a factor, and all the linked articles said its "a big criteria" and "very important". Fine, but is it an absolute deal breaker? Would they turn down ND, or refuse to take OU as a package deal with UT just because of AAU membership? I'm not convinced of that. If they were really serious about it they'd kick out Nebraska.
Since they invited ND at one point, there is your answer.
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Solid points. I will add that Missouri's first choice was the B1G - there were rumblings that they, Nebraska and a third school could have been added in 2011 to the Big Ten; however, it was only Nebraska that got added. When the SEC became their only option, it was an easy choice to make. Many think that Missouri would never leave the SEC - but Missouri is a rare school that fits the mold of both an SEC and B1G school. If the B1G is assured of getting more $$$ from Fox than the SEC is from ESPN, it's very possibly Missouri changes course. Time will tell though.
I 100% agree that the B1G's focus, as of today, is eastern and southern expansion (Virginia, UNC, Duke, and Georgia Tech). It's where the populations are increasing and where the stronger media markets will be (not to mention plethora of respected academic/research institutions).
IIRC, the SEC is the only conference that has no exit fee. Now that's confidence.
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Nobody is mentioning that Oklahoma has a little brother problem with Oklahoma State. Oklahoma's politicians insist that Oklahoma will not go to another conference without Oklahoma State in tow. That's why when the Pac-12 was sniffing around, they were looking to add 4 schools from the Big 12. And it's why Oklahoma going to the SEC is not very likely.
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IIRC, the SEC is the only conference that has no exit fee. Now that's confidence.
The B10 doesn't either. But I believe they both have grant-of-rights agreements in place.
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It isn't as much about CSU "having" the Denver market as much as being in it. Rutgers is a non entity in the NYC market when compared to others schools in the region but due to their proximity they got the Big Ten invite so BTN would be on basic cable. CSU would do that for Denver and a Big 12 network.
As for BYU, you run into the issue of no Sunday games and other demands they make.
This is a pet peeve. New Jersey is a huge market in its own right with or without NYC. Whether Rutgers owns NYC or not is not the primary reason it was added to the Big 10. It was added because it owns a big market like NJ, like for example Iowa owns Iowa.
We in the Big East are a bit too focused and jaded by major market share in assessing a program's prominence. People in rural America also watch sports.
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People in rural America also watch sports.
NASCAR is not a sport
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NASCAR is not a sport
Correct, it is a religion.
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I get that its a factor, and all the linked articles said its "a big criteria" and "very important". Fine, but is it an absolute deal breaker? Would they turn down ND, or refuse to take OU as a package deal with UT just because of AAU membership? I'm not convinced of that. If they were really serious about it they'd kick out Nebraska.
The link that actually said it was a requirement was a UConn message board with a paraphrased quote from Twitter about Delaney testifying in the lawsuit accusing the Big Ten of being a price-fixing cartel. That's the same testimony where he said the Big Ten would stop sponsoring sports if athletes got paid. I don't think either of those statements are an absolute hard-line rule they'd stick to.
Nobody is saying it's a hard and fast rule simply that it is a high priority so the money/eye balls generated by a non-AAU school better be great get. ND and Oklahoma as a package deal with Texas are worth it....just about anyone else, probably not worth it if they aren't AAU
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I get that its a factor, and all the linked articles said its "a big criteria" and "very important". Fine, but is it an absolute deal breaker? Would they turn down ND, or refuse to take OU as a package deal with UT just because of AAU membership? I'm not convinced of that. If they were really serious about it they'd kick out Nebraska.
The link that actually said it was a requirement was a UConn message board with a paraphrased quote from Twitter about Delaney testifying in the lawsuit accusing the Big Ten of being a price-fixing cartel. That's the same testimony where he said the Big Ten would stop sponsoring sports if athletes got paid. I don't think either of those statements are an absolute hard-line rule they'd stick to.
Very few things in this world are absolute or a deal breaker. It is just to date, everyone that has ever been invited has been AAU and it's always been very high on the priority list. I shared a few years ago that when working with the Big Ten Network guys we had to understand who the potential expansion candidates were to properly value any rights deals. The network and the conference made it clear that almost with total certainty we had to think in terms of AAU membership was a must have. That allowed us to put a bunch of schools off the list so we knew roughly the possibilities of where expansion might have and determine what the risk could be down the road.
But of course they could change gears. The AAU stuff is driven by the academics.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-13/sports/ct-spt-0614-aau-big-ten-expansion--20100613_1_aau-nebraska-chancellor-harvey-perlman-big-ten-members
It matters
http://newsok.com/article/5473247
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Here is an interesting article on the BTN.
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/purdue/2015/07/16/big-ten-network-big-ten-revenue-money/30229169/
Payout $1million per year per member.
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This is a pet peeve. New Jersey is a huge market in its own right with or without NYC. Whether Rutgers owns NYC or not is not the primary reason it was added to the Big 10. It was added because it owns a big market like NJ, like for example Iowa owns Iowa.
We in the Big East are a bit too focused and jaded by major market share in assessing a program's prominence. People in rural America also watch sports.
People in New Jersey don't give a damn about Rutgers athletics (other than the taxes they pay to supports his a marginal product). It was about NYC cable.
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IIRC, the SEC is the only conference that has no exit fee. Now that's confidence.
Correct: $0 exit fee. The last school to take them up on that offer was Tulane in 1966, and history has shown the folly of that decision.
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Correct: $0 exit fee. The last school to take them up on that offer was Tulane in 1966, and history has shown the folly of that decision.
Tulane left because they believed there was some new kind of southern Ivy League that was going to be formed called the Magnolia Conference with Duke Virginia Rice etc , it never happened.
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For Tulane, hindsight is 20/20. If they could have foreseen the future, they wouldn't have left the SEC. (Georgia Tech wouldn't have either just two years before Tulane did.)
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Here's a decent breakdown of what might be the biggest factors regarding BIG 12 expansion, they could care less about AAU membership:
As first reported by Chuck Carlton of the Dallas Morning News, The Big 12’s composition committee has settled on a final four: BYU, Cincinnati, Colorado State and UCONN. Whispers are that UCF, USF, Memphis and Houston are no longer being considered. Keep in mind this, if the Big 12 expands who they add will be based more on which school can get the needed eight votes, rather than the merit of the individual programs. Merit does not automatically translate into votes, especially when each of the Group of Five candidates have nearly identical metrics. Compromises will be made and the opinions of Texas and Oklahoma will weigh more heavily than others.
http://landgrantgauntlet.com/2016/05/12/the-big-12-may-have-their-final-four-but-expansion-hinges-on-texas-the-acc/
Here are comments from the ACC commish Swofford about the ACC network, he states there is no deadline although he hints about the rumored $45M annual penalty ESPN might have to pay the ACC, if there is a penalty there must be a deadline, no?
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/article77253192.html
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Here's a decent breakdown of what might be the biggest factors regarding BIG 12 expansion, they could care less about AAU membership:
Yup, the Big 12 is at the bottom (of Power 5) when it comes to academics...no question.
http://newsok.com/article/5473247
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Yup, the Big 12 is at the bottom (of Power 5) when it comes to academics...no question.
http://newsok.com/article/5473247
There is a difference between general academic missions of university where Big 12 is admittedly very low and academic mission of athletic departments within the university. On all measures the $EC is the worst of the academic conferences from an academic perspective with the Big 12 in 4th.
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For Tulane, hindsight is 20/20. If they could have foreseen the future, they wouldn't have left the SEC. (Georgia Tech wouldn't have either just two years before Tulane did.)
The other unspoken issue in those days was integration on the athletic fields. The Big Ten schools were early adopters and football teams who truly embraced integration like Michigan State dominated in football recruiting guys like Bubba Smith. The southern schools were lilly white and eventually had to embrace reality . It is a possibility Tulane saw that future and for their own reasons simply opted out.
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People in New Jersey don't give a damn about Rutgers athletics (other than the taxes they pay to supports his a marginal product). It was about NYC cable.
Penn State and West Virginia have more fans in New Jersey than Rutgers.
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That is just plain silly....Rutgers by far
http://www.vividseats.com/blog/most-popular-college-football-teams-by-us-state
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That is just plain silly....Rutgers by far
http://www.vividseats.com/blog/most-popular-college-football-teams-by-us-state
Wait a minute, Texas Tech is the most popular football team in Texas? Oklahoma State the most popular team in Oklahoma? The Big 12 should just tell Oklahoma and Texas that they are lucky to even be in the Big 12.
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Here's a decent breakdown of what might be the biggest factors regarding BIG 12 expansion, they could care less about AAU membership:
As first reported by Chuck Carlton of the Dallas Morning News, The Big 12’s composition committee has settled on a final four: BYU, Cincinnati, Colorado State and UCONN. Whispers are that UCF, USF, Memphis and Houston are no longer being considered. Keep in mind this, if the Big 12 expands who they add will be based more on which school can get the needed eight votes, rather than the merit of the individual programs. Merit does not automatically translate into votes, especially when each of the Group of Five candidates have nearly identical metrics. Compromises will be made and the opinions of Texas and Oklahoma will weigh more heavily than others.
http://landgrantgauntlet.com/2016/05/12/the-big-12-may-have-their-final-four-but-expansion-hinges-on-texas-the-acc/
Here are comments from the ACC commish Swofford about the ACC network, he states there is no deadline although he hints about the rumored $45M annual penalty ESPN might have to pay the ACC, if there is a penalty there must be a deadline, no?
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/article77253192.html
It would sure to seem to me that UCONN is geographically a bad fit for the big 12.
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It would sure to seem to me that UCONN is geographically a bad fit for the big 12.
UConn would join the PAC-12 in a nanosecond if it meant A) joining a power conference and B) leaving the American. Geography doesn't matter to them. The opportunity of playing a group of Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor, West Virginia, et al., is too strong to be picky about where those games are located. West Virginia faced the same "issue" in 2011. At the end of the day, it's either face higher and longer travel or be grouped with a bunch of castoffs and outsiders. Easy decision for school presidents and athletic directors.
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There is a difference between general academic missions of university where Big 12 is admittedly very low and academic mission of athletic departments within the university. On all measures the $EC is the worst of the academic conferences from an academic perspective with the Big 12 in 4th.
Not on all measures. US News Rankings http://collegespun.com/national/which-of-the-5-major-athletics-conferences-has-the-best-schools-academically
1. ACC – 55.8
2. Big Ten – 58.4
3. PAC-12 – 81.8
4. SEC – 98.7
5. Big 12 – 113.1
Or Reputation rankings
http://www.languagemonitor.com/top-colleges/pac-12-upsets-big-ten-for-top-academic-reputation-after-conference-realignment/
Etc
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111903703604576584771531621708
etc
https://infogr.am/2014-power-football-academic-rankings
Big 12, dead last
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Not on all measures. US News Rankings http://collegespun.com/national/which-of-the-5-major-athletics-conferences-has-the-best-schools-academically
1. ACC – 55.8
2. Big Ten – 58.4
3. PAC-12 – 81.8
4. SEC – 98.7
5. Big 12 – 113.1
Or Reputation rankings
http://www.languagemonitor.com/top-colleges/pac-12-upsets-big-ten-for-top-academic-reputation-after-conference-realignment/
Etc
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111903703604576584771531621708
etc
https://infogr.am/2014-power-football-academic-rankings
Big 12, dead last
Tulane and Rice to the Big 12. Done deal.
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Wait a minute, Texas Tech is the most popular football team in Texas? Oklahoma State the most popular team in Oklahoma? The Big 12 should just tell Oklahoma and Texas that they are lucky to even be in the Big 12.
That list is so ridiculous. Colorado is most popular in Wyoming but not Colorado (K State holds the honor). Illinois may be ridiculed in their home state, but no way is Missouri more popular (Notre Dame could also be #1). Lots to laugh at on this list.
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It would sure to seem to me that UCONN is geographically a bad fit for the big 12.
Geographically maybe. But for the discussed Big 12 network no one from the G5 is going to deliver more cable boxes.
Interesting I was reading this week that UConn and UT have a good relationship. Men's and women's basketball teams play regularly.
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It would sure to seem to me that UCONN is geographically a bad fit for the big 12.
UConn would join the PAC-12 in a nanosecond if it meant A) joining a power conference and B) leaving the American. Geography doesn't matter to them. The opportunity of playing a group of Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor, West Virginia, et al., is too strong to be picky about where those games are located. West Virginia faced the same "issue" in 2011. At the end of the day, it's either face higher and longer travel or be grouped with a bunch of castoffs and outsiders. Easy decision for school presidents and athletic directors.
As 79 Warrior said UConn is a bad fit for the Big 12, not for UConn.
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That list is so ridiculous. Colorado is most popular in Wyoming but not Colorado (K State holds the honor). Illinois may be ridiculed in their home state, but no way is Missouri more popular (Notre Dame could also be #1). Lots to laugh at on this list.
My personal favorite is that Vermont's favorites schools are Florida Atlantic and Virginia Tech.
How the heck is Florida Atlantic one of two favorites for a Northeastern state?
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My personal favorite is that Vermont's favorites schools are Florida Atlantic and Virginia Tech.
How the heck is Florida Atlantic one of two favorites for a Northeastern state?
You missed Rhode Island as its favorite school was Ole Miss.
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You missed Rhode Island as its favorite school was Ole Miss.
I sorta get that. Ole Miss is often at least good. I don't know why Florida Atlantic would be your favorite college football team if you were a Florida Atlantic alum, let alone a random resident of Vermont. Is their coach from Vermont or something?
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I sorta get that. Ole Miss is often at least good. I don't know why Florida Atlantic would be your favorite college football team if you were a Florida Atlantic alum, let alone a random resident of Vermont. Is their coach from Vermont or something?
LOL!
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Small barriers for powerhouses like the B1G and SEC. I don't think the ACC Network will launch, and if it does, I dont think it will be successful
I have a more positive outlook on this issue.
ACC Network launched
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/17102933/acc-espn-agree-20-year-rights-deal-lead-2019-launch-acc-network
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ACC Network launched
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/17102933/acc-espn-agree-20-year-rights-deal-lead-2019-launch-acc-network
Already acknowledged that I was wrong in another thread. But still hold that it won't be successful.
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Big 12 has cut its list of schools being considered for expansion.
Air Force
BYU
UCF
Cincinnati
Colorado State
UConn
Houston
Rice
South Florida
SMU
Temple
Tulane
Unclear if Memphis made the cut.
East Carolina, UNLV, Boise, NIU, Arkansas St, New Mexico, San Diego St all get the ax. No idea why Texas wouldn't be interested in coming to DeKalb every other year.
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Big 12 has cut its list of schools being considered for expansion.
Air Force
BYU
UCF
Cincinnati
Colorado State
UConn
Houston
Rice
South Florida
SMU
Temple
Tulane
Unclear if Memphis made the cut.
East Carolina, UNLV, Boise, NIU, Arkansas St, New Mexico, San Diego St all get the ax. No idea why Texas wouldn't be interested in coming to DeKalb every other year.
Did they hand out 12 roses to the university presidents.
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Did they hand out 12 roses to the university presidents.
LOL! Priceless.
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Did they hand out 12 roses to the university presidents.
Yeah no kidding. This is getting embarrassing for all parties involved.
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Being the only conference out there currently considering expansion, I guess the Big 12 is comfortable enough to be a little arrogant. If they had some competition for these schools, I'd think that this process would be moving faster and with more discretion.
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Yeah no kidding. This is getting embarrassing for all parties involved.
Especially since "no expansion" is still on the table.
All of this rigamarole is also a reason to keep the Big East as a collective of private - aka non-FOIA-able - schools.
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Being the only conference out there currently considering expansion, I guess the Big 12 is comfortable enough to be a little arrogant. If they had some competition for these schools, I'd think that this process would be moving faster and with more discretion.
I don't think they're being arrogant. I just don't think they know what the hell they are doing. I think membership is divided, I don't think the television partners are fully on board, I think they have expansion criteria that is all over the place.
The B12 has been beset by leadership failure from the start of all of this. Kowtowing to Texas drove four, large public universities away. They were replaced by a private university and a public university far away from its geographic footprint. They have made stupid, reactive decisions from the beginning and this is just a part of this trend.
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The B12 suffers from what some might diagnosis as delusions of grandeur. As a P5 conference they are the weakest of the 5 in both football and basketball but they think they're as strong as the others. So they act/negotiate as if they are the B1G or $EC and this is the result.
The way they bowed and scraped to Texas put them in this position so it's great seeing them get their comeuppance.
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Did they hand out 12 roses to the university presidents.
Which ones do you think they'll take to the Fantasy Suite?
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http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/news/big-12-expansion-bad-candidates-east-carolina-houston-byu-memphis-uconn/1ox7sn85j38a21ezuv14e6e69j?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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I don't think they're being arrogant. I just don't think they know what the hell they are doing. I think membership is divided, I don't think the television partners are fully on board, I think they have expansion criteria that is all over the place.
The B12 has been beset by leadership failure from the start of all of this. Kowtowing to Texas drove four, large public universities away. They were replaced by a private university and a public university far away from its geographic footprint. They have made stupid, reactive decisions from the beginning and this is just a part of this trend.
Bullseye!
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Ooo ... ooo ... pick me! pick me!