MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: HouWarrior on May 03, 2016, 10:02:23 AM
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ESPN, like Scoop, is trying to fill an off season lull with:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15447349/top-25-unfulfilled-potential-reality-falls-spectacularly-short-expectations
It makes for a good topic here. Recalling the many high expectations among our recruits/players...who;
1) fell short of expectations:
Oliver Lee, Maymon, William Gates,
2)...or left us wanting more?
Ellenson, Jim Chones, Wade
I put zero thought/ research to my names (likely bad choices-lol) but I look forward to those with good lists on each category
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1) fell short of expectations:
Dominic James
4th all-time in scoring. 2nd in assists. 4th in steals. Top 10 in career wins.
Yeah, that guy was a real disappointment.
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Yeah disagree with the Dominic James analysis.
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Depends on what you are using as metric in disappointment....stats or results in times that it matters like the tournament.
Given the talent of the 3 amigos and the talent on the team when they were upperclassmen, we could certainly argue they under performed when it mattered.
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Depends on what you are using as metric in disappointment....stats or results in times that it matters like the tournament.
Given the talent of the 3 amigos and the talent on the team when they were upperclassmen, we could certainly argue they under performed when it mattered.
Injuries at critical times didn't help.
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4th all-time in scoring. 2nd in assists. 4th in steals. Top 10 in career wins.
Yeah, that guy was a real disappointment.
He said 'fell short of expectations' not "a real disappointment"...
DJ had a solid frosh year with a high usage.
His offensive performance never improved and was met with regressing usage. He became less of a factor, offensively, as his career progressed.
I think if you look at where DJ was at as his freshman year concluded and where the consensus expectations re: his future lay at that time, saying he fell short of those expectations is completely reasonable.
It's no wonder that many people say, "DJ should have tried to leave for the NBA after frosh year."
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He said 'fell short of expectations' not "a real disappointment"...
DJ had a solid frosh year with a high usage.
His offensive performance never improved and was met with regressing usage. He became less of a factor, offensively, as his career progressed.
I think if you look at where DJ was at as his freshman year concluded and where the consensus expectations re: his future lay at that time, saying he fell short of those expectations is completely reasonable.
It's no wonder that many people say, "DJ should have tried to leave for the NBA after frosh year."
DJ had more options as Jerel and Wes matured into their games, so his offensive impact was less. However, each year his defensive impact grew.
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DJ had more options as Jerel and Wes matured into their games, so his offensive impact was less. However, each year his defensive impact grew.
James was an on-ball terror his senior year. His ball pressure was crushing. Plus, when Buzz went to the gimmick 1-3-1 he had the quickness to play the baseline and cover corner to corner.
I think somehow he got underrated as a defensive player. I actually thought for a while that was how he'd catch on at the next level as the emergency backup PG somewhere. If he had to see the court for a couple minutes he'd give you good D and wouldn't turn it over. But, obviously I'm not in charge of any NBA rosters so it didn't work out that way.
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DJ had more options as Jerel and Wes matured into their games, so his offensive impact was less. However, each year his defensive impact grew.
Bingo.
Also, holding the lack of tournament success against that group is harsh. As glow pointed out, hey had two seasons where they were all healthy... as freshman and juniors. Got beat by a fluke shot junior year.
He said 'fell short of expectations' not "a real disappointment"...
It's still ridiculous. The only expectation he fell short of was making it to the NBA. Over four years, what he did at MU was as good as anyone could have hoped.
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It's still ridiculous. The only expectation he fell short of was making it to the NBA. Over four years, what he did at MU was as good as anyone could have hoped.
Bingo.
We've had higher rated players than the 3 Amigos come in, and they've achieved way less.
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I would say Dwayne Johnson was a very big disappointment in the sense of leaving early due to unforced error. He had incredible talent but could not cut in the classroom and ended up his career in D3. I think if he would have been able to stay on the team, the Majerus era may have gone on for a long time.
Oliver Lee had a very good career, there are some that believe it could have been great. I think the whole Hank Raymonds era was one of players not realizing potential. So I don't know if I put it all on the kid. There were many others during his time that never reached their potential.
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Jamil Wilson.
Ended up a decent player, but never really became what people thought he would become.
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DJ had more options as Jerel and Wes matured into their games, so his offensive impact was less. However, each year his defensive impact grew.
Not sure it was so much Rel and Wesley; but the usage trend was certainly not what you normally see. Would be interested to look at comparables... freshman year to senior, in order.. usage... 27.7, 26.6, 24.9, 21.5.
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Just for fun.. Wes: 22.5, 22.2, 20.1, 24.7 (chains off)
Rel: 27.1, 31.0, 27.5, 28.1
....freshman year, the top older guys were the likes of Novak (super efficient, but relatively modest usage.. 18%) and Champman (12.4.. sandy cohen-like)
...by their junior year, Zar had taken on a big load (nh) and played meaningful minutes... I think Zar's presence had as much or more to do with the decline as Rel and Wesley.. not a bad thing, just an unusual-looking trend of usage for DJ... and I don't think it looked like most expected as of the completion of his FR year
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Vander Blue fits comfortably in both categories.
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This might help this conversation: http://marquette.247sports.com/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits
Its a list of Marquette's top 50 recruits since 2000 based on their 247 composite rating.
Some names that jump out to me:
#1 Henry Ellenson and #2 Vander Blue both left with us wanting more.
#3 Jajuan Johnson underachieved his first 2.5 seasons but looked like the star we expected the second half of last season. Could give us a monster senior year.
#4 Dameon Mason I think was great when he played for us but after transferring to LSU he really fell of the wagon.
We just recruited #5 Markus Howard, very very excited about him.
#11 is Juan Anderson? Damn.
#15 is Sandy Cohen? Damn.
Yous Mbao and Davante Gardner are tied at #31? Yikes.
247 massively underrates JUCOs, see #26 Jameel McKay, t-#34 Darius Johnson-Odom, t-#34 Jae Crowder, t-#48 Jimmy Butler.
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Some random thoughts on this subject:
1) Bernard Toone -- One of the best recruits Al got (which is saying a lot) but wasted a lot of his talent.
2) Tony Reeder -- Was supposed to be good. Dukiet's "best." Indicative of how far the program had fallen.
3) Tommy Copa -- Supposed to be a great center, lead us to where we were. Never quite got us there.
More to come but these are the ones that come to mind.
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This might help this conversation: http://marquette.247sports.com/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits
Its a list of Marquette's top 50 recruits since 2000 based on their 247 composite rating.
Some names that jump out to me:
#1 Henry Ellenson and #2 Vander Blue both left with us wanting more.
#3 Jajuan Johnson underachieved his first 2.5 seasons but looked like the star we expected the second half of last season. Could give us a monster senior year.
#4 Dameon Mason I think was great when he played for us but after transferring to LSU he really fell of the wagon.
We just recruited #5 Markus Howard, very very excited about him.
#11 is Juan Anderson? Damn.
#15 is Sandy Cohen? Damn.
Yous Mbao and Davante Gardner are tied at #31? Yikes.
247 massively underrates JUCOs, see #26 Jameel McKay, t-#34 Darius Johnson-Odom, t-#34 Jae Crowder, t-#48 Jimmy Butler.
Dameon Mason was not a great player at Marquette.
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1) fell short of expectations:
Dominic James,
I put zero thought/ research to my names (likely bad choices-lol) but I look forward to those with good lists on each category
Thanks to the posts who quickly confirmed what I already had acknowledged up front...here,....I had hoped for prompt departure from my names and thoughtful research of new lists so ignoring my names totally.... re start:
who were your top 5 of those that failed to meet expectations?
PS thank TAMU while I was replying here your post righted the ship
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I'd say Dominic James only failed to live up to the expectations set after his freshman year. He was a great college basketball player for us, but most probably thought likely lottery pick after his freshman start.
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Sultan mentioned Jamil Wilson. That's the big one for me. I remember him being a top-5 player nationally at one point. He had the prototype size, athleticism, ability to go inside or out, just seemed like a better-in-every-way Jae Crowder.
I don't know if it was that he was severely overrated or that he just didn't have the tenacity and personality to be a star. Even without Blue, we should have been a tourney team in 2014, but Jamil just wasn't the type to will a team to victory.
Juan was definitely another one. Coming out of high school he looked like another overlooked West Coast recruit. His passing and just smoothness reminded me of Evan Turner. In retrospect, it was probably that the competition should have reminded me of Pop Warner.
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Dameon Mason. Ooze. Copa. Downing. Bell/Christian/Matthews/Niv. Jamil. Mayo. Fulce. (damned knees. He was better than Butler at JUCO, compared to Shawn Marion)
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Depends on what you are using as metric in disappointment....stats or results in times that it matters like the tournament.
Given the talent of the 3 amigos and the talent on the team when they were upperclassmen, we could certainly argue they under performed when it mattered.
James had a broken foot his senior year.
McNeal had a broken had his sophomore year.
Both of those hurt us at tournament time.
I would say in comparison to James' freshmen year the rest of his career was disappointing. Imagine if he had improved as much as Matthews and McNeal.
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ESPN, like Scoop, is trying to fill an off season lull with:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15447349/top-25-unfulfilled-potential-reality-falls-spectacularly-short-expectations
It makes for a good topic here. Recalling the many high expectations among our recruits/players...who;
1) fell short of expectations:
Dominic James, Oliver Lee, Maymon, William Gates,
2)...or left us wanting more?
Ellenson, Jim Chones, Wade
I put zero thought/ research to my names (likely bad choices-lol) but I look forward to those with good lists on each category
#2 McNeil, Lucas and Rivers also left early for NBA. Not NBA, but Blankson transferring out.
I would have to go through the MU guide to remember all the names I would list under 1). It might be easier to list the players who did not disappoint as usually we set expectations too high for incoming players. For Buzz recruits I would say Butler and Crowder. The rest were probably disappointing to various degrees.
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A couple recent players come to mind:
Jamil Wilson
A great athlete who could do just about anything — pass, shoot, drive, post up, defend — but never seemed to quite pull it all together.
Joe Fulce
Some might forget that Joe was the Class of 2008 JC recruit Buzz prized most — not Jimmy Butler. Persistent knee issues kept him from putting his incredible athleticism and rebounding skills to full use.
It doesn't mean they weren't good players — or that I didn't enjoy watching them at Marquette. I just thought they were capable of a lot more.
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Dameon Mason was not a great player at Marquette.
He had that one shot, against that one team that was pretty cool though
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Lloyd Moore.
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Lloyd Moore.
Forgot about Chocolate Moose. I wish he had kept the weight off.
I'd add Walter Downing to my list. Saw glimpses of greatness and then he was hurt. Too bad he went to Depaul for awhile before he came to us.
Jamil Wilson may have been number one on my list! He was so good and yet soooooo bad. Lacked the intestinal fortitude to play inside.
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Ryan Amoroso
He had the size to be the interior presence that MU needed, but he never seemed to have his heart completely into basketball.
Dameon Mason
He had the tools to be Jerel McNeal before Jerel McNeal.
Trent Lockett
Tough to call out a starter on a conf champ/E8 team, but he was no where near the offensive threat I was expecting.
Todd Townsend
Highly-regarded recruit, looked the part. Didn't play like it.
Erik Williams
See Todd Townsend
Trevor Mbakwe and Jeronne Maymon
Both fulfilled their potential in other uni's.
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Another unfulfilled potential from the 80s
Terry Reason. I think came in as one of the highest scoring players in California HS history. Looked great as a freshman. got in Rick's dog house. Nothing after that.
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I don’t know how Juan Anderson even got brought up in this thread. He was simply terrible. I’m not sure if he was highly ranked coming out of HS but man did he disappoint every year.
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Juan was RSCI #81 in 2011.
He may not have lived up to that ranking, but he was better than players like Jamail Jones (#74 in 2010) and Erik Williams (#67 in 2009)
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I don’t know how Juan Anderson even got brought up in this thread. He was simply terrible. I’m not sure if he was highly ranked coming out of HS but man did he disappoint every year.
I think Juan had some unrealistically high expectations coming in. He was a solid hustling player as a freshman but he never made the big progression most players make as a sophomore, then he went down as a junior. When he hit Senior year he did make the progression and he actually had a very solid senior season. Without him that year we may have been single digit wins.
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Another unfulfilled potential from the 80s
Terry Reason. I think came in as one of the highest scoring players in California HS history. Looked great as a freshman. got in Rick's dog house. Nothing after that.
Jheri Curls
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As good as Glenn Rivers was, he didn't reach his potential at Marquette. His game was muted by both Raymonds and Majerus. He ended up being only a second-round draft pick despite his talent, but then realized his potential during a good, long pro career.
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John Dawson, clearly the best player on the teams but had too short of a leash
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Juan was RSCI #81 in 2011.
He may not have lived up to that ranking, but he was better than players like Jamail Jones (#74 in 2010) and Erik Williams (#67 in 2009)
Jones and Williams were especially disappointing even if you remove fans' unrealistic expectations. Generally recruits have a big adjustment to make their freshmen year and often disapoint based on fans' expectations. In the latest ESPN rankings Howard is 84 and Hauser is 86 and most posters here think they are going to make a big difference.
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Jamil Wilson.
Ended up a decent player, but never really became what people thought he would become.
Unreal expectations of the fan base?
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Unreal expectations of the fan base?
I think he peaked early in high school so unrealistic expectations is probably accurate.
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Jim (Monster) Bailey and Gene Bromstead (sp?)
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As good as Glenn Rivers was, he didn't reach his potential at Marquette. His game was muted by both Raymonds and Majerus. He ended up being only a second-round draft pick despite his talent, but then realized his potential during a good, long pro career.
+1. Doc was a major disappointment as a college player - but not because of Raymonds and Majerus. What muted his game was his poor outside shot. Opponents played zones and that's what stymied him.
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Doc did not live up to expectations IMO. There is a long list of guys that could be listed but he jumps out as #1 to me. He was nice player at MU but always left me wanting more. Jamil Wilson is most recent guy that left me wanting a lot more.
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Bingo.
Also, holding the lack of tournament success against that group is harsh. As glow pointed out, hey had two seasons where they were all healthy... as freshman and juniors. Got beat by a fluke shot junior year.
It's still ridiculous. The only expectation he fell short of was making it to the NBA. Over four years, what he did at MU was as good as anyone could have hoped.
Don't forget the lack of quality interior players. They had to make up a lot of ground for what their teams gave away on the inside. Nobody on those teams above 6-5 was more than a fringe D1 player, other than Novak their freshman year, and he was hardly an interior force.
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This might help this conversation: http://marquette.247sports.com/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits
Its a list of Marquette's top 50 recruits since 2000 based on their 247 composite rating.
Some names that jump out to me:
#1 Henry Ellenson and #2 Vander Blue both left with us wanting more.
#3 Jajuan Johnson underachieved his first 2.5 seasons but looked like the star we expected the second half of last season. Could give us a monster senior year.
#4 Dameon Mason I think was great when he played for us but after transferring to LSU he really fell of the wagon.
We just recruited #5 Markus Howard, very very excited about him.
#11 is Juan Anderson? Damn.
#15 is Sandy Cohen? Damn.
Yous Mbao and Davante Gardner are tied at #31? Yikes.
247 massively underrates JUCOs, see #26 Jameel McKay, t-#34 Darius Johnson-Odom, t-#34 Jae Crowder, t-#48 Jimmy Butler.
This is awesome. Thanks.
P.S. Wojo is only responsible for 5 of the top 20.
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JFB was rated behind Pat Hazel, Mike Kinsella and David Cubillan but Chico insists he was offered by Kentucky. LOL.
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JFB was rated behind Pat Hazel, Mike Kinsella and David Cubillan but Chico insists he was offered by Kentucky. LOL.
He wasn't?
That was sarcasm, he was. Just google it, very easy to find all the old articles.
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He wasn't?
That was sarcasm, he was. Just google it, very easy to find all the old articles.
This was also in the Billy Gillispie era for Kentucky, when they weren't exactly top tier in recruiting.
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JFB was rated behind Pat Hazel, Mike Kinsella and David Cubillan but Chico insists he was offered by Kentucky. LOL.
He was....
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/107124358.html
Butler, on the other hand, had an offer from Kentucky - his dream school - and was set to accept.
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He was....
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/107124358.html
That article also talks about Fulce sticking with Marquette "despite Tom Crean leaving unexpectedly for Indiana". Tom Crean had nothing to do with Fulce coming to MU - as long as Buzz was here he was too. Not Rosiak's best job of reporting.
I know Kentucky was down during that period but I'd still be surprised if they really offered a guy not considered a top 30 Juco - but maybe that's the kind of thing that made Gillespie such a bust.
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+1. Doc was a major disappointment as a college player - but not because of Raymonds and Majerus. What muted his game was his poor outside shot. Opponents played zones and that's what stymied him.
Well, I suppose my recollection could be off ... although I do remember many times the Warriors would have a 3-on-2 break and Rivers, on Hank's instruction, would slow down and wait to set up the offense. Maybe both are true, and both contributed to Glenn not realizing his potential.
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Some random thoughts on this subject:
1) Bernard Toone -- One of the best recruits Al got (which is saying a lot) but wasted a lot of his talent.
He was the first that came to mind for me. Turned out to be a decent player, but not nearly as good as expected.
Al looked for any excuse to not play freshmen and Toone gave him ample reasons.
I think he is comparable to Jamil, where you see the talent, but that talent never transferred to the production that it should have.
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That article also talks about Fulce sticking with Marquette "despite Tom Crean leaving unexpectedly for Indiana". Tom Crean had nothing to do with Fulce coming to MU - as long as Buzz was here he was too. Not Rosiak's best job of reporting.
I know Kentucky was down during that period but I'd still be surprised if they really offered a guy not considered a top 30 Juco - but maybe that's the kind of thing that made Gillespie such a bust.
Rosiak was quoting Butler directly. So unless Jimmy was lying (which is possible, he wouldn't be the first recruit to fib about his offer list), he had the offer. There was also a lot of other articles as well, that was just the first one I found. I think this is more of a case of sometimes ratings get it really really wrong. But looking at who is recruiting a kid will usually give you a good idea of how good the kid is.
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Krunti Hester.
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I really want to say Scott Merritt, I know the numbers go against that though. I was actually surprised where he stood on MU's all time lists. Always felt like he was more of a complimentary player than someone you game planned against. He was really hyped up as a top 50 national recruit coming into Marquette, and not his fault that he was a high profile recruit coming in after the very end of the bad Deane years.
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He was the first that came to mind for me. Turned out to be a decent player, but not nearly as good as expected.
Al looked for any excuse to not play freshmen and Toone gave him ample reasons.
I think he is comparable to Jamil, where you see the talent, but that talent never transferred to the production that it should have.
I saw Toone all the way through high school and then on to MU. Toone was an outright thug. The Looney Tunes knickname had a basis in reality. He had a bad drug problem. His senior year he actually lived up to his potential, 18.7 ,6.7 and was drafted number 37. Unfortunately, drugs are not a good thing. A real talent wasted.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19870317&id=VkEgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wn4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5271,620387&hl=en
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/03/sports/sports-people-toone-arrested.html
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/08/14/Former-Marquette-basketball-star-Bernard-Toone-has-been-arrested/1052555912000/
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Doc did not live up to expectations IMO. There is a long list of guys that could be listed but he jumps out as #1 to me. He was nice player at MU but always left me wanting more.
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C'mon, Joe. That one shot against Notre Dame made it all worthwhile.
The look on the faces of Digger and Tripucka was priceless.
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That article also talks about Fulce sticking with Marquette "despite Tom Crean leaving unexpectedly for Indiana". Tom Crean had nothing to do with Fulce coming to MU - as long as Buzz was here he was too. Not Rosiak's best job of reporting.
I know Kentucky was down during that period but I'd still be surprised if they really offered a guy not considered a top 30 Juco - but maybe that's the kind of thing that made Gillespie such a bust.
So you just going to admit you're wrong or not?
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Doc did not live up to expectations IMO. There is a long list of guys that could be listed but he jumps out as #1 to me. He was nice player at MU but always left me wanting more.
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C'mon, Joe. That one shot against Notre Dame made it all worthwhile.
The look on the faces of Digger and Tripucka was priceless.
My all-time favorite Marquette shot.
I know the Whitehead shot was bigger, obviously. And Vander's shots against both St. John's and Davidson. And Junior's shot against UConn was arguably bigger. And probably others I'm not thinking of.
But I was at that game and watching that shot go in, and the celebration that ensued ... well, that's a memory I'll hold until they turn me to ashes and then sprinkle me over the ocean in Kauai!
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Keefe
No doubt Doc's game winner against ND is an all time great moment. Plus his dunk against Wake Forest is top 5 dunk in school history.
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Surprised Junior hasn't really been mentioned. I know there are varying opinions of him, but for a guy right around the top-50 range, I expected a lot more. He was an adequate fifth starter, but I always expected more from him as a shooter, scorer, and defender. Just a very average player, despite his rankings coming in.
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So you just going to admit you're wrong or not?
If you really think that Jimmy came to MU sight unseen and didn't even visit his "dream school" UK with a FIRM offer in his pocket from them so be it. Regardless of what's been reported I don't.
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Surprised Junior hasn't really been mentioned. I know there are varying opinions of him, but for a guy right around the top-50 range, I expected a lot more. He was an adequate fifth starter, but I always expected more from him as a shooter, scorer, and defender. Just a very average player, despite his rankings coming in.
Hard to keep those expectations when he tore his ACL almost the minute he set foot on campus. I do agree though that he could've/should've been way better.
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If you really think that Jimmy came to MU sight unseen and didn't even visit his "dream school" UK with a FIRM offer in his pocket from them so be it. Regardless of what's been reported I don't.
So Jimmy lied about his offer list.
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Toone was a rare talent and could have been so much better. That said, a big game in '77 NCAA against WF and great senior year made up for it. He could have been really, really special.
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So Jimmy lied about his offer list.
Look, there are offers and then there are offers. Right now there are probably at least 10 guys whom MU has "offered" for 2017. Guess what? we wouldn't/couldn't take all of them.
I'm not saying JFB is lying - I never said that - but I would seriously doubt if Kentucky's "offer" was the unconditional, you're our guy type. Do you think it would be reasonable for a kid to sign with MU sight unseen while eschewing even a visit to his "dream school" (who also happened to be a blue blood) with a plane ticket and a firm offer in hand? Buzz was a wizard and I'm his biggest backer but even I don't think he could pull off something like that.
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Look, there are offers and then there are offers. Right now there are probably at least 10 guys whom MU has "offered" for 2017. Guess what? we wouldn't/couldn't take all of them.
I'm not saying JFB is lying - I never said that - but I would seriously doubt if Kentucky's "offer" was the unconditional, you're our guy type. Do you think it would be reasonable for a kid to sign with MU sight unseen while eschewing even a visit to his "dream school" (who also happened to be a blue blood) with a plane ticket and a firm offer in hand? Buzz was a wizard and I'm his biggest backer but even I don't think he could pull off something like that.
I'm just trying to clarify. Your original post was bashing Chicos for insisting that Kentucky had offered him. You were provided evidence to the contrary. Now you are trying to argue over the definition of an offer. Is it so hard to just say "I was wrong, Jimmy was offered by Kentucky. I'm not sure it was an unconditional offer. But there was some sort of offer."
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ESPN, like Scoop, is trying to fill an off season lull with:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15447349/top-25-unfulfilled-potential-reality-falls-spectacularly-short-expectations
It makes for a good topic here. Recalling the many high expectations among our recruits/players...who;
1) fell short of expectations:
William Gates,
I'm not sure what people's expectations of Gates were after he tore up his knee in high school, back when ACL's were often career ending injuries. Plus, his recruitment landed Amal McCaskill (maybe MU's all time overachiever in terms of expectations).
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Well considering Buzz had worked under the then KY coach and that coach's problems that would come to light perhaps Jimmy passed on KY after hearing about said problems.
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I'm just trying to clarify. Your original post was bashing Chicos for insisting that Kentucky had offered him. You were provided evidence to the contrary. Now you are trying to argue over the definition of an offer. Is it so hard to just say "I was wrong, Jimmy was offered by Kentucky. I'm not sure it was an unconditional offer. But there was some sort of offer."
Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.
Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.
Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.
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Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.
Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.
Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.
So either Jimmy (and all those other sources) is lying or you were wrong. Got it.
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So either Jimmy (and all those other sources) is lying or you were wrong. Got it.
How many times have you read "so and so chose xyz university over abc U., def U. and Marquette" KNOWING that Marquette wasn't offering so and so?
But since nuance/context is unimportant to you, either Jimmy and all those other sources is (sic) lying or I am wrong. There you go.
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I really want to say Scott Merritt, I know the numbers go against that though. I was actually surprised where he stood on MU's all time lists. Always felt like he was more of a complimentary player than someone you game planned against. He was really hyped up as a top 50 national recruit coming into Marquette, and not his fault that he was a high profile recruit coming in after the very end of the bad Deane years.
Scott Merritt was another player that had a very good freshmen season and then his numbers tailed off a bit. The reason for the tail off is that he switch from player center to power forward.
Rivers, James and Merritt are the three players I can think of who did not have a great statistical improvement from their freshmen year to their last year.
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Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.
Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.
Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.
Why did he also have offers from Clemson, Mississippi State, Iowa State and Minnesota? He had an offer from Mississippi State out of high school, but he ended up in JUCO because they ran out of scholarships.
He visited Mississippi State and Iowa State while at Tyler.
Jimmy had some ridiculously monster JUCO games while everyone was looking at Fulce. Buzz wasn't the only one that saw the potential, even though that's the narrative.
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As good as Glenn Rivers was, he didn't reach his potential at Marquette. His game was muted by both Raymonds and Majerus. He ended up being only a second-round draft pick despite his talent, but then realized his potential during a good, long pro career.
There is much more to the story with Doc's struggles at MU his junior year. Remember that he was picked as a first team all-american in 1982 and preseason all-american going into 1983.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=20010427&id=h-RNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gf0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4625,4591308&hl=en
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and even more complications when you consider Marotta's relationship with the girl and what that did to team chemistry.
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Why did he also have offers from Clemson, Mississippi State, Iowa State and Minnesota? He had an offer from Mississippi State out of high school, but he ended up in JUCO because they ran out of scholarships.
He visited Mississippi State and Iowa State while at Tyler.
Jimmy had some ridiculously monster JUCO games while everyone was looking at Fulce. Buzz wasn't the only one that saw the potential, even though that's the narrative.
Jimmy averaged 18.7 points and 7+ rebounds in JC and did have at least one (43 points) monster game, maybe more. but he wasn't a top 50 JC guy. I never said he wasn't good. But if I told you my final 5 were Iowa State, Clemson, Mississippi State, Marquette (who found him because they were recruiting Fulce) and Kentucky wouldn't you say one those schools didn't "fit" with the rest?
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Jimmy averaged 18.7 points and 7+ rebounds in JC and did have at least one (43 points) monster game, maybe more. but he wasn't a top 50 JC guy. I never said he wasn't good. But if I told you my final 5 were Iowa State, Clemson, Mississippi State, Marquette (who found him because they were recruiting Fulce) and Kentucky wouldn't you say one those schools didn't "fit" with the rest?
Kentucky took a JUCO in Josh Harrelson that year, so I don't think it's crazy at all. Billy wasn't diving in storage vaults of McD's AA like Cal is right now.
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Kentucky took a JUCO in Josh Harrelson that year, so I don't think it's crazy at all. Billy wasn't diving in storage vaults of McD's AA like Cal is right now.
OK, I surrender.
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OK, I surrender.
Yes!
It was the Scrooge McDuck reference that did it, right?
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Butler turned out to be an amazing recruit. However, I generally discount spring recruits. Coaches do not like to leave an open roster spot, so recruits that they would not consider in the fall are all of a sudden desired recruits. There are the hidden gems like Butler who flew totally under the radar. I think Carter was a very good late signing and I believe he fell there, because he was injured. Anim, who I have a gut feeling may be the surprise player of the year on MU's roster, is more likely the type of high school player you end up with. Basically, someone that will fill the empty seat as a freshmen. Anim could play a lot this year if he learns where to be on defense and resists throwing up a three point shot as soon as he gets in the game.
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steve taylor jr and anthony pieper
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Butler turned out to be an amazing recruit. However, I generally discount spring recruits. Coaches do not like to leave an open roster spot, so recruits that they would not consider in the fall are all of a sudden desired recruits. There are the hidden gems like Butler who flew totally under the radar. I think Carter was a very good late signing and I believe he fell there, because he was injured. Anim, who I have a gut feeling may be the surprise player of the year on MU's roster, is more likely the type of high school player you end up with. Basically, someone that will fill the empty seat as a freshmen. Anim could play a lot this year if he learns where to be on defense and resists throwing up a three point shot as soon as he gets in the game.
I would add a Crowder, Gardner, DJO also in the Spring along with the any D1 transfers like Jamil, Trent. Buzz did very well in the Spring.
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and even more complications when you consider Marotta's relationship with the girl and what that did to team chemistry.
I'm surprised this is the first time Mark Marotta's name came up. Talk about busts. I know we're not supposed to speak ill of the deceased, but he was a high school all American, I don't think he was a burger boy, but my recollection was he was darn close.
He was not what he was supposed to be coming out of high school. Big deal player reputation, very average performance. Smart, nice guy and all, but I guess he was supposed to be the real deal. He wasn't
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I'm surprised this is the first time Mark Marotta's name came up. Talk about busts. I know we're not supposed to speak ill of the deceased, but he was a high school all American, I don't think he was a burger boy, but my recollection was he was darn close.
He was not what he was supposed to be coming out of high school. Big deal player reputation, very average performance. Smart, nice guy and all, but I guess he was supposed to be the real deal. He wasn't
I'm not recalling that at all but certainly could be wrong. If true, then the rating services in those days were waaay off. I have no recollection of Marc coming in with big expectations that might lead him to the NBA. He was a solid starter and no more. Probably the second best player on the team as an upperclassman. The guy that I recall got the greatest grief at the time was Terrell Schlundt. And I'm not really sure that was fair because he had to play out of position too much. The sad reality is that absent Doc the program would have been in the serious decline phase that accelerated in the years following.
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steve taylor jr and anthony pieper
I agree with STJ. But I thought Pieper was a solid player from his sophomore year on.
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Marc was a solid player that had great second half of his senior year. He was only 17 when he started at MU and I think he was the player I thought he would be. Again, he had exceptional last half of senior year.
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I agree with STJ. But I thought Pieper was a solid player from his sophomore year on.
i guess i was expecting him to really ring 'em up being the top state scoring leader. presently #31 at 1234. nothing against him just high expectations
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Marc was a solid player that had great second half of his senior year. He was only 17 when he started at MU and I think he was the player I thought he would be. Again, he had exceptional last half of senior year.
he was a solid veteran/team leader and played through some challenging times-good, smart player
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i guess i was expecting him to really ring 'em up being the top state scoring leader. presently #31 at 1234. nothing against him just high expectations
Remember he played in KO's and Deane's grind it out, first to 60 wins style and on teams with Hutch and Crawford.